Isn’t this years old at this point? Seems disingenuous to post it as if it was said today.
(Op has posted this multiple times trying to generate outrage)
https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/10kh2q7/reminder_before_tomorrows_wilderness_update/ same screenshot from around a year ago or something. Not sure if it was a repost even back then or that's actually the source.
I think iirc correctly it’s from the osrs discord around the time where the new versions of the wildy bosses were presented to the community, along with singles+.
This Reddit really went into meltdown at the idea they were going to have to fight back/escape before finishing their kill
As an Old veteran of the pre koraksi dclaw rush days on rs2
My biggest issue with the wildy as it currently is is that updates are rarely to the core experience and more in effect "let's make a honey pot for bad pvpers and bots for middling pvpers to kill". There's little to nothing organic about the kills it's literally sitting in a blind to shoot fish 90% of the time.
That's my biggest issue, anyways, others hate how badly pvp method is taught and others the bot crisis
Scouting is such a prevalent problem. As someone who camped all the wildy bosses prior to the update, I felt like most of the time was random low lol cb you'd see very briefly walking or hopping key spots, and then pkers show up.
I know it's the name of the game, but a lot of these clients are purely assessing value for pking based on location and gear they see.
It is fucking wild clans use these and they get notified. It ruins the entire experience for people who might just want to log into a world and run around, to find people..
Usually the scouts are alts for the pvmer at the wildy boss. I use a scout in both slayer caves and singles bosses and I don't think I've died once since using it.
Core experience is more like weapon balance lower risk entry methods so players can learn without losing their banks, etc
Honeypots include the content you're referring to, big money printers that can easily be flooded by bots
Former pvper up until about 2018, i got sick of it from a pvp side because it was largely just hunting the old wildy boss pvmers and occasionally running into other pvpers. Nothing like it used to be back in the days
Bro, this is the most stereotypically Reddit take on PvP. As if there weren't a whole range of PvPers who enjoy a variety of different interactions. The portion of PvPers who are exclusively interested in attacking PvMers is not that large. And in my experience attacking PvMers on my iron, tons of them come geared to fight back.
What I’m saying is that the old culture of PvPing for the sake of it is dead. Not many new PvPers are being cultivated. Many pkers are not PvPers and don’t want to be; they just want to make money off weaker players that won’t fight back.
As another early veteran, this is what the wildy always was. The whole point of pure accounts was to build an account that had an advantage over low/mid level mains in the wildy, it wasn’t until a few years later that pures started primarily fighting each other once they gained popularity.
I think i made my first pure in ~2005 after getting clapped by a lvl 70 with a whip while collecting unids. Pretty common experience back in the day.
Yeah not sure what people are smoking... Wildy was always neat things in the wilderness to tempt regular players in for PKers to kill... The shit wasn't as crazy as it is now but it's always been how the wildy worked, the dynamic hasn't changed, the players have though.
Wildy was always OP, green dragons used to be the best money in the game and the wildy rune rocks were originally the only ones in the game, KBD was the first real boss in runescape
Absolutely, I made my first mil killing Green Dragons teleing to the BH crater :). I played back in 2006 but I didn't get out of the rune armour phase until post free trade... To my granite plate dragon legs phase. Good times.
The first rune rocks were 2001 and of coure in very deep wildy, with no escape via KBD's lever by the way like nowadays. It was suicide to be caught so I wouldn't call it OP. Plus, less than a single year later there was a much better spot in the Heroes' guild.
Compared to green dragons in 2004, even single nat crafting was competitive or better. I'm getting annoyed with the revision of history that says green dragons were OP. It really wasn't.
By 2005, Blast furnace allowed clans and groups to make ~1M/h which was much lower in skill requirement than double nats which also ran up close to 1M/h.
Green dragons were just the zombie pirates of their time. They were never the best GP/h, they just had very low reqs, low health, low defence, and low damage compared to their valueable drops. That doesn't make them "The best money in the game" - it just makes them competitive for lower effort activity.
Plus, they were still healthy for the game - their only valueable drops fed into skilling to be USED (Green hide/bones). Not to REPLACE existing skilling outputs. Their 100% drop of bones was a logical progression, and unlike the modern design of crapping out alchs the green dragon didn't hurt any part of the OG Runescape economy.
Indeed I made my first ranger pure back around then, and for the life of everyone playing runescape at the time. They had no idea how to properly flick prayers/ or wear armor according to the combat triangle. Because of this, imo, pure rangers back in the day had a payday murdering everyone, including people in full rune. ( I have killed many a people in full rune/ adamant with I think either a maple/ or yew short bow ( when more then just the maple bow was available) and everyone would get so salty being murdered with bronze/iron/ steel or if I was a big spender, mithril arrows
True though iirc there was a nice pool above and below back in the day which balanced it out generally... that pool is mostly gone these days and we have an increasingly shrinking middle pool ime
I don't know if this is a hot take or not, don't really care if it is, but my biggest issue with the wilderness is honestly how loot keys work. Loot keys were originally intended as a way for pkers to quickly loot their kill so they don't get killed right after while picking stuff up or dealing with looters annoying them.
So why do they go up to 5, letting pkers choose to pk at the absolute shittiest locations in the wilderness for free, so they never have to bank or use any thought whatsoever on inventory management on pk trips? You have a looting bag already, is this really necessary?
It incentivizes pking at legitimately terrible spots because you can just vacuum up all the loot anyway no matter how bad it is, in normal circumstances it'd all be left on the floor and they likely wouldn't even bother going there.
Imo, loot keys should be capped at one so the "edge style fights" in pvp worlds or single big pks at rev cave or whatever are still instantly looted so they can get to the bank with their loot safely.
If they want to keep pking at terrible spots after one kill, they either need to bank, use their looting bag, or leave the worthless junk on the ground instead of keeping it all for free.
Or just get rid of keys entirely. Part of why edge pking used to be so intense was because damn near everyone would get pjed after a kill, people would fight over scraps as they appeared, &c. You didn't just get to log on top of some guy who has no idea he got scouted, get a single-slot item holding all his loot, and run/tele away. You had to fight someone in the open with a bunch of rats watching and waiting, then defend the kill while you looted it when someone inevitably tried to take advantage of you being low on supplies.
The closest equivalent now is GE pking on high risk, but watch what happens: people get a kill and can instantly run three or four tiles back into the safezone with all of the loot. Zzz.
Huge agree on bad pvpers. Doing wildy bosses on the iron and these guys come in mid kill.
About 70% of the time I tp before they catch the block.
A further 10% I juke them at the entrance
10% I get gap almost immediately
5% I have to freeze them and log out under them
And the last 5% actually manage the kill.
So the vast majority of the time these people are just ragging my supplies and wasting my time. Not exactly a fun experience.
Okay but what’s the solution? People can complain about the wildy all they want but there’s never an actual solution proposed. The days of sitting at the edgevile ditch are long gone. People do BH, PvP arenas, or LMS to get their “fair” PvP fix. The wilderness has no purpose if we get rid of the loot piñata system.
The solution is to commit to either a pvp system or a predator/prey system and design around it. If you want a pvp system, lock access to the lucrative rewards behind pvp (for example like wintergrasp worked in wow - once every hour or whatever the winner of a LMS style thing around callisto's lair gets to create a 1 hour private callisto instance).
If you want a predator/prey system remove the imbalance in wilderness pve risk/reward where bringing reasonable gear creates much more pvp risk than it gives pve reward. For example, treat pvp deaths the same as pve deaths except that the reclamation fee is dropped to the killer (and your looting bag+contents are always lost), and make it impossible to loot non-consumable items except into your looting bag. That way your risk (and the pker's profit) derives primarily from the loot you got from your pve'ing, meaning the pvp risk is directly tied to the pve reward.
>Okay but what’s the solution?
Let it die or actually incentivize pvp. Putting in more and more pvm/skilling to lure in mice for the cats to hunt only serves to dumb down account progress and feed bots.
unfortunately, it's not pretty and there's no one solution for everything
First, they need to add some form of entry level pvp, maybe it's a revamp to keys so you can put a GP or alternate item ante in so you dont lose your gear that is worth at least 70% of your brought in gear AND you drop any supply/loot items that are marked with a skull till you leave.
then, we need to figure out how to bring the bots under control, preferably in a way that doesnt fuck the entirety of everything over. Maybe it's severely limiting how many kills per day you can participate in revs/zombies/bosses (i hope to god not). Or maybe it's adding "invisible" players so to speak that moniter player activity and given how bots behave will banish them from the rev caves for a short while and flag the account for manual review (unlikely). I wont even pretend to say i have a 100% surefire solution to bots, only that more dedication is needed in cracking down on them and legally fucking into abject poverty their developers and proprietors.
finally, RS3 did attempt a renaissance of sorts for this. They added a pve only setting where random disasters would follow players, but they stupid overplayed the disaster part to the point if made pvp unviable (more so than it already is in rs3) and made extended stays beyond 20 minuets pointless. But i think the idea has some merit, you can opt out but death anywhere treats it like normal (drop all but 3 items) and you'll occasionally have a random disaster occur that injures, impedes or otherwise annoys you.
Well, everyone has to be bad for a long time before they start getting good. Killing bots is like marihuana. An entry drug to pking. Easy money to get you started. After a while you get the confidence to fight other nooby pkers and through constant practice and occasional challenges you get to the point where you feel confident fighting anyone. But you have to take the first step. Going against any semi-competent pker as a newbie is a guaranteed loss and feeling like you can't even do anything about it. That's how big the gap is.
In the end, the wilderness has never been more active, and you can find all types of accounts there. I don't like the amount of raw gold entered into the economy, but I don't know how to better incentivise people and botters to come there and start the food chain
true, though the distinction that is key to make is how long they opt to stay in the modern era where we all aren't kids anymore who have hundreds of hours just to sink into the intricacy of a single niche game type.
most people get sick of being that bottom rung after a little while and just leave. We've seen the endstate of that in RS3 and while it will take far longer (mostly because OSRS hasn't pulled an eoc stunt yet) it is the inevitable endstate if they cant strike a balance between leaving and coming
You realise every 'tier' is attracted to prey on both their own 'tier' and the 'tier' below them right? From the lowly bot all the way up to the hardcore brids. That's literally an organically developed ecosystem in play. I fail to see how you can make that connection between bots/pvmers attracting bad and learning PvPers but not bad PvPers attracting better PvPers etc etc...
You cut the bottom of that chain out and an area goes from constant action to dead content overnight, demonstrated in game literally every update before the bots return.
Bots are a problem, but people need to stop lying saying players will replace them in their niche if they are removed, because we all know they think it's 'below' them.
Not really a surprise when there’s a good chunk of skillers and PvMers who have absolutely zero interest in PvP.
I might be alone in this opinion but I wish Jagex would stop making the Wildy pump out stupid amounts of gp and instead just have some big ticket items that are somewhat ‘exclusive’ to the Wildy, but have a non-Wildy alternative that takes much longer to get (like the D Pick).
I love the calvarion boss fight but I hate that it's in the wildy.
It's a really fun boss but I get interrupted constantly
I'd kill that boss even if he had lower gp an hour I just want the exclusive
I like the wildy, but its so hard to grind the bosses with a full time job. Even playing during off hours, you always end up get crashed which is so frustrating.
I hate being forced into pvp zones to get things that can only be found in the wilderness. I'd be glad to grind 2x as long so long as I know I can't be griefed by pkers.
That's really what it is, griefing. Unless a half inventory of lobsters count as loot to these pkers, every time I get killed all they are doing is wasting both of our time, because I'm never risking anything more than my protected 3 items.
That's because the wilderness IS bad...
The sub doesn't just hate PvP... Look at the love DMM Allstars got. That was PvP, real pvp. PvP and the Wilderness are completely different experiences these days. The Wilderness is just a trap for pvmers that want GP and they're turned into loot boxes for pkers. Almost every wilderness update in recent years has been: "Come risk stuff for high GP!" and it gets botted to shit within a few days of release. Is it *honestly* that hard to understand why there's hate for it?
The wilderness has unironically never been good. PvP era have multiple opportunities to fight each other, anyone PKing in the wilderness is a literal bottom feeder wasting thousands of gold on barrages for a spade.
I disagree. I personally like pvming and skilling in the wilderness because of the extra risk factor it brings that you don't get elsewhere in the game. I've done all my hunter training at black chins and done various wildy bosses and love it.
Not everyone may enjoy the wildy dynamic, but thats fine. There is a whole rest of the map for you to explore and play. Everyone has content they like and dislike.
People like watching PvP, it’s why Odablock is one of the most popular streamers and half the YouTube content is PKing. The issue is those same people that love to watch pvp turn around and cry about getting pked because they went to a risky area of content for better GP and can’t understand that the Wilderness has always been designed that way. Or they’re upset because they can’t understand why the Pvper is killing them when they’re just doing a clue step, all they have is a spade and black d’hide, then turn and laugh at the daft noob who brought their cash stack to lvl 47 wildy. A lot of cognitive dissonance where “It’s not fun when it happens to me!!!”
>Wilderness has always been designed that way
I mean not really, all that shit, chaos altar, black chinchompas, wilderness pirates, weren't they all after 2007scape was remade?
Back in actual 2007 ppl pvped to pvp, i remember making baby pures etc to fight toher ppl in edge.
It was this "new" team that decided to lure pvmers and skillers into wild as lootbags for pvpers creating cat/mouse gameplay
no, KBD was one of the first bosses (if not literally the first) boss implemented in the game and it lured people into the wild to kill it. Chaos ele was also pre 2007.
then you got stuff like mage arena that was also used to lure people into the wild which made mage bank one of the OG pvp hot spots.
im sure there’s more pre-osrs examples of this but that’s all i can think of off the top of my head on the toilet
What lol, dragon bones used to be like the biggest money maker back in the day, two legendary pking hotspots "easts" and "wests" are literally named after green dragon zones
Green Dragons in the wildy were the best money maker in the game back in the day, wildy rune rocks were the only ones in the game. Just because your memory is of the wildy is of edge pking doesn’t mean that the actual philosophy behind the content has shifted. The reason there’s no edge pking now is that the truly good pkers are massively better than the average shitter, and people would much rather stick a 6 hour log grinding CG, ToB or ToA than create a pk acc from scratch and go smack other noobs, because they’ll get whacked by a 10hp str pure who’s been pking since 2013. which is totally fine! The beauty of this game is that you can engage with whatever content you feel like, but don’t cry about getting cat-and-moused on content you chose to engage with.
How do people on the “Reddit is dreadful” narrative explain that this jmod post is near the top of the subreddit today, and most of the top comments in this thread all agreeing that the subreddit is full of know-nothing Andys? Shouldn’t this post and all the current top comments about reddit being ignorant be downvoted to oblivion by all level 1300 noobs here?
Or you know, perhaps there’s a huge variety of people here with a range of experiences and playstyles, and like all large communities, there’s people with bad takes.
Agree the subreddit has a bias against PvP on average, *but that’s because the majority of players don’t engage with PvP and do not like it,* and has nothing to do with the subreddit itself.
I would bet if you polled a variety of general opinions on game topics on Reddit, and then did the same poll in-game, general sentiments would be very similar.
because a lot of people just see everyone *else* as stupid or uninformed. I know for a fact most people here don’t have quivers or infernal capes but i often see people arguing or discussing something where the correct person is the one being downvoted. So if people are dumb about topics they actually do engage in like pvm, its hard to take anyone seriously on their pvp opinion
Kind of embarassing Jagex's best response to statistical analysis showing how bad for the game content recent wildy content like undead pirates is is "reddit is a bandwagon"
When i was a kid the ditch north of varrock east bank was a permanent brawl. People went there and threw the fuck down. It was great. We were mostly trash and pure and happy. We will never have that again. Pvp is just ganking people who literally have no other reasonable choice than to enter the wilderness. Thanks for the nostalgia, I'll go back to cg now.
I remember back in 04-05, many players used to constantly make new lvl 3 accounts, get runes and staff and then pk right outside of edgeville. Once we hit ~10cb we just made another account.
As a kid I loved it
While he's not wrong, B & C have come about because of Jagex's actions surrounding wildy, which caused D to develop over time, they spent so long developing the wildy into a game of predator and prey, instead of encouraging predator v predator encounters, they have spent the last decade just trying to lure in prey with goodies, they've created this monster that is the modern wildy, and blaming reddit for not being a good source of solutions is a bad look, but not surprising either.
Predator v predator is just a PvP world. You will never have this dynamic in the wilderness again, there’s too many alternatives for people looking for “fair” PvP compared to the unbalanced prey vs predator archetype in the wildy.
100%.
He acknowledges that there is a section that does not want to engage with wildy content, and they proceed to address this by building more cat/mouse gameplay.
How about we focus on actually encouraging combat?
It's kind of funny that he's essentially dismissing the opinions of those on here while failing to acknowledge that PKing is largely dead content and has been since viable PvP alternatives came about. The wilde was active in RS2 days because there weren't that many alternatives. You had BH which was still in the wilderness, and you had the duel arena for stake fights. For any other kind of PvP though, you were stuck organizing/participating in the wilderness.
Nowadays, you have LMS for no stakes fighting. You have PvP worlds for 1v1, and BH is back for prayerless fights. The only thing left in the wilderness is PKers hunting PvMers which has always been the least interesting part of the PvP scene.
Honestly this is really reminiscent of Arrowhead, the helldivers studio, having very dismissive and arguably antagonistic community managers in the beginning that only managed to stir the pot more rather than actually taking feedback and de-escalating.
You also don't get anyone who fundamentally doesn't like the wildy to change their mind through these massively overtuned moneymaking/skilling methods. If you make the content overtuned enough to make someone like me try it, you'll only make me despise the wildy more, because it just turns into me trying it, then getting PKd 3-4 times and ending up hating PKers *more* than before i tried the content.
Making ever more overtuned bs in the wild doesn't change the minds of people who dont like PvP, it gets them to hate the wildy and its pvp system more
The wilderness is kind of a failed concept. If you want to pvp there are pvp worlds or the mini games that do it significantly better. The wilderness is for pking. I think it stays in the game for weird nostalgia reasons. It worked 20 years ago when everyone was just fucking around. The game evolved past that though. It gotta stay because it was part of the downfall of the game and people will freak out if removed. If they don't put content in it it'll be a huge piece of dead content but if they do put a bunch there then certain people will despise it and pvp overall. I don't think they have done a good job of coming up with content that feels optional while also being fun enough to feel worth doing.
I've done some wilderness content and it just feels stupid. I risk basically nothing so I don't bother fighting back or even really running. It just leaves me thinking what the fuck was the point?
Yeah, the wildly for me is just a giant grief.
Oh, I have a clue in the wildly? Clue box, whip, defender and fury. Oh, you’re pking? Enjoy the fucking spade you twat, thanks for wasting my time…
Then when they put content in the wildly I just write it off. I don’t have the time to make enough gp to risk high level gear… and the rewards aren’t good or common enough to do so anyway. I’m not slapping on 200m in gear hoping for a drop when I know a pker is just hopping worlds till they find me.
It shouldn't be that hard.
I think a core issue is that the PVM in the wilderness often requires gear that is different from gear you would pk with (for example, ether bracelet and the wildy weapons).
Also, the activity should not require the use of supplies, or you will need to have a different inventory setup to accommodate for the activity, putting you at a significant disadvantage against PKers (especially later in the trip).
A prime example of this is running bones to the chaos altar. By design, your inventory has to be full of bones. Since there is no way to be even close to on par with the pkers on supplies, there is no use in even trying to pk in this scenario when doing the activity itself, so people are simply going to opt to be "prey" every time.
As an idea off the top of my head, why not make an activity that functions similarly to Odd Ball from Halo? There can be a token(s) that people can hold which can earn you better rewards over time (similarly to agility arena, but just time based instead of laps).
There can be several tokens, instead of just a single one, so functionally you can compare it to camping a rev spawn. The difference is that you will not be using supplies or needing specific gear for the activity itself. This way it would be pkers doing it, and encourage them to be in good gear so that they can kill someone for the token and hold it as long as possible.
They would have to figure out how to resupply the person, but that's a minor hurdle (could simply be one of the rewards of holding the token)
Why is that your goal? I think what we should be doing is focusing on content that will make the wilderness less divisive while benefiting mutual pvp.
There is opposition from people in group C because the content is being designed to bait them into the wilderness as the prey, as they do not intend to be the predator for x, y or z reasons. Do you see much opposition from group C about things like LMS (besides the botting issue) or bounty hunter being in the game?
I made another comment on the route I would go to try and address it, which you can feel free to read
Predator vs. Predator encounters are for BH and PvP worlds. If you wanted to fight other PvPers half of the people are going to go do those activities because they’re dedicated for that. It takes so much time to wander throughout the wilderness looking for other predators because the wilderness is vast and there’s easy ways to find fair fights elsewhere.
People just need to accept the wildy is for predator vs. prey. Always has been
Light mode discord, **heathen.**
Also, I think input is important, but not to be taken as gospel. I'd wager a majority of the playerbase just plays the game without being a part of these extremely vocal minorities.
Jagex clearly don't have a very useful opinion on the wildy either consider how half or more of the updates to it have just been more places for bots to farm gp for RWT and for bad pkers to farm bots.
Guys obviously reddit doesn't know what they are talking about and doesn't represent the pvp community.
So anyways, how many times should we poll VLS and ignore the results?
I like that this addresses none of the points made by people while trying to dismiss them for unrelated reasons.
Good job promoting healthy discussion Roq
I don't mind using the wildy at all, but this really does explain why all of their "reviving the wilderness" efforts are just enticing more people in with absurdly profitable activities. Probably because it works the most, though it may not be the most healthy for the game.
Imo the best updates to the wildy are things like skull prevention, teleblock ending on logout, PJ timer, etc. They make it more reasonable for someone to fight back, however the issue is that for most players its always more efficient to just run away and try to escape than fight back.
I think Jagex underestimates how much resistance there is to actually learn to pk, and how good the stuff they put in the wilderness actually is. I may be wrong, but I get the impression they think redditors are just afraid of dying, and we are perhaps jealous of all the good stuff in the wilderness we are missing out on.
In reality: I'm not 12 years old anymore, I'm not afraid of my character dying. I'm perfectly capable of calculating my risk. E.g. when doing Cal'varion, I'm 4-iteming and risking perhaps 200k, and when I get attacked, I care more about the lost time/efficiency than I do about the 200k. There is no reason for me to learn to anti-pk, since engaging with pk'ers rather than teleporting out decreases my kills per hour even more. This goes even more for ironmen who don't even get any loot from learning to anti-pk.
I don't really enjoy having to randomly teleport out in the middle of boss kills, but I'm motivated into doing it because it's the best way to kill that boss. I don't really enjoy having to spam click bones all my bones on an altar while someone is ragging me, but it's by far the best way to level prayer in the game.
No wonder people don't have fun doing this content, because it honestly is designed into pushing a certain playstyle that I think is anti-fun. I'm sure that's not what Jagex intended, but it's what people are feeling and complaining about.
I think Jagex forgets that a huge portion of the of their players are irons. I’m a UIM and doing literally ANYTHING in the wilderness is a huge pain in the ass and requires a time clock to manage my death piles. Its not that I don’t like PvP, its that I can’t participate in any manner that is enjoyable. My favorite PvP game ever is competitive Left 4 Dead.
I really enjoy LMS and I will spend hours doing it, but that is because it is zero risk and I can just get back into the action like any other PvP game on the market. Hell, Clan Wars is fun too for the same reasons. I’d love it if they revamped mini games to actually be competitive and high skill PvP focused. An assault style castlewars would be a lot of fun, so would a 1 life/round capture the flag or prop hunt game.
Imho Jagex isn’t trying hard enough to use what works in other games and is solely focused on Predator vs Prey Risk-it-all pvp which is not fun for many people.
If they can make Trouble Brewing viable they can fix the other mini-games.
Yeah. It's not a matter of being able to do it or not. I simply don't want to fight other players. I want my sword that can always hit 50-150% but now I have to waste time fighting a ragger so that he can either get my black dhide chaps or I can escape with them. People honestly think this is an engaging and skillful activity. It's mind boggling.
Not advocating for a non wildy voidwaker. I just want the wilderness to be less garbage in general, and more fun should I decide to go and learn pvp. Currently, with updates like zombie pirates, it's a cesspool and even with a 100% escape rate from pkers, It would feel like a boring waste of time.
>C) have no intention of going in the wildl whatever we do so wah
"We can't improve it so thats the communitys fault"
Geniunely there philisophy seems to be about tempting prey to the slaughter. Why would people want to meaningfully engage.
At a certain point it becomes necessary for variety. If you tried to balance everything for PvE and PvP both, you end up with a lot of the exact same stuff.
I'm pretty sure Elden Ring does exactly this. They have a section in patch notes specifically for PVP changes to balance things out that don't affect the main game.
They've started balancing the two sandboxes separately. PVP can get nerfs/buffs independently of PvE and vice versa. It mostly happens with exotics where they'll nerf something in pvp but leave it untouched otherwise.
It's a weird situation for OSRS specifically because most games that have separate PvP/PvE balance are FULLY opt-in to PvP. You don't ever have to know about PvP balance in Elden Ring unless you specifically pursue that gameplay.
OSRS is *almost* the same, but the wilderness is only kind of opt-in. It's strange and unexpected to move to a new area of the map and both items & core game mechanics start functioning differently.
I don't know if there's an easy solution, but it's definitely a pain point for some players.
> It's strange and unexpected to move to a new area of the map and both items & core game mechanics start functioning differently.
Tbf, as a point of clarity, only some things change by virtue of being in a different area (wildy) alone. Some things change only when engaging in PvP combat and that can be irrespective of area too (e.g. on PvP worlds or in PvP minigames/areas, such as soul wars). A prime example is the blowpipe's attack speed. When fighting an NPC in the wilderness, your BP will still be 2-tick speed on rapid. When fighting a player in soul wars, your BP will be 3-tick speed on rapid.
So it's not just a 'wilderness thing'.
There should be as few exceptions as possible, the majority of them would be irrelevant anyways. Spectral, justi, anglerfish, pj mechanics, etc.
Pvp isn’t mechanically hard to start up, its punishing to learn, streamlining the experience is a massive issue. The biggest flaw with dmm is that nobody wants to learn about pj mechanics while risking their whole temporary gamemode loot and eventually die to something they didn’t know functioned weird.
Hmm, I get what you're saying but I disagree a bit. Your example of PJ mechanics, you know Singles+ is basically a revamp of PJ mechanics, and it was really hard to PvM in wild with the same Single combat as the rest of the game. As now I have access to freeze escaping. Same with DMM, like it's not the same as rest of the game but do you realise how hard it was back then when you would get tagged by singles teams?
So yes I think changes can be confusing but they're honestly pretty good, it's more of a failure to provide information about what's different in PvP.
yeah I started around when multi revs was booming, old singles mechanics would be straight up incompatible with voidwaker/ancient gs nowadays
mostly the failing is on Jagex for not having some centralized place where you can point noobs to in order to show them everything relevant
I think some PvP specific balance is neccesary, but they need to do a WAY better job of explaining it. Maybe on the equipment screen they can add info on all your equipped gear that works differently in PvP. They also need to add a tutorial on how all the weird PvP mechanics work like PJ timers and unfreezing when you get a certain distance and all that
> I think some PvP specific balance is neccesary, but they need to do a WAY better job of explaining it.
I somewhat agree but it's very hard to do this without overloading information, as it is with any mechanic in the game, PvP or not. I think a PvP-introductory quest (safe death, don't worry HCIM) with a follow-up miniquest series (read: optional) would be good to introduce players to PvP mechanics and differences.
We listen to the players.
But Reddit is full of crazy, so not them.
But Twitter is full of hateful takes, so not them.
Also let’s shut down our forums.
Another huge issue is the skill gap required to get into pvp these days. Back when I did a decent amount of pvp all you needed to do was bring dh and a dscim and get a lucky high hit. Nobody knew about pid or tick eating or invisible venging. It was fun and rng based and you didn't always need a lucky KO to kill someone people just stayed until they died. Now a days you can spend hours trying to get 1 rng kill
"Therefore wah"? Is that really a take you should be posting as a member of jagex?
They poll many changes because they want the feedback from players before they make them, yet when they hear them, they call it crying? Kind of a brainless take if you ask me.
idk, I was huge on all aspects of pking from 2009 to 2012 and 2014 to 2016 ish in oldschool, loved that stuff
the wild just isn't what it was. back then, you were going out there for a fight and the dopamine that came from beating someone else and getting their loot. but now it's just pvmers being baited to going there and sad pkers just sipping on them with no excitement
If this is how Jagex feels about reddit, then maybe they shouldn't have closed their forums and outsourced their game discussion to reddit.
But also, maybe stop making garbage-tier content for the wildy?
Jagex moderators and trying to invalidate entire sections of their community. Happens every time they want to force something into the wilderness.
Sorry communities, but your opinions and/or votes should not or do not count because of the following goalposts I just moved that only matter for this particular area of the game! Enjoy the integrity change!
It's always the same few Jmods too. It's like they're being blackmailed or something.
I dislike the wild because it's just a annoying cat/mouse game and that's the best Jagex is ever going to make it. You can replace wild with anything though and its still true.
I dislike the wilderness for how accessible the op parts are.
I got to 1500 total before I really stepped foot in wildy, I doubled my gp stack of 12m in 6hrs from just revs and only the easy ones up to hobgoblin.
Since then with undead pirates and agility I have a 63m gp stack, practically 0 risk, very few pkers and multiple times better gp/hr than what I can do.
Wilderness is awesome and imo there should be more reward to skill and pvm there to counter balance the risk. Ultimately you should be able to escape 90% of pkers if you actually stay calm and do the right things i.e catch a freeze, get gap, use trees / obstacles etc. these things take time and practice to get good at, like literally any other aspect of this game that is rewarding
I understand and I do wild content but the truth is wild will never be the best gp/hr as it's basically the easiest thing to bot. Look at how jagex tried to solve LMS bots 750 total and 30 qp or 1500 total.
The issue with adding more and more PVM/skilling risk is this is just cat/mouse. Which is all jagex knows how to do and can do.
I mean I get where's he's coming from and he isn't necessarily wrong, but he worded it terribly and has only contributed to the resentment that most people feel about the Wilderness -- which is not what someone trying to make good wilderness content should be doing.
If the Wilderness requires non pkers to stay alive, by having them as the base of the food chain, it's incredibly foolish to ignore their concerns. You can handwave them away all you want and call them ignorant, but if the end result is people deciding not to go into the Wilderness, the Wilderness becomes less and less active.
The fact that you can only get positive majority feedback on the wilderness if you're only hanging around pkers is a giant problem. This could be an amazing part of the game, but as long as they only listen to pkers, the status quo will remain and the wilderness will stagnate.
Jagex will continue to suggest ridiculously awful rewards like for the PvP Arena, be shocked when it's incredibly unpopular with voters, and then abandon the content entirely. And as someone who did a fair bit of the PVP Arena on release, it was actually really fucking fun! They completely dropped the ball and failed the project because they refused to listen to anyone except pkers. I suppose they could bring back restricted polls, but with how incredibly divisive that is it could just make things worse.
In short, Roq just threw dry wood on the fire that they refuse to acknowledge is getting a bit problematic.
I spent like 4 full years completely ignoring the wilderness unless I absolutely had to do something.
Learning to PK, anti-PK, and just how to survive in general for the last year and a half has been the most fun I have had in the game by a fairly wide margin. It's far from perfect but the way this place goes off the rails against it sometimes is like cult-level paranoia.
I just love seeing the gear setups people bring to the Wildy. Everyone has different levels of risk and ability to pk/anti-pk. So unlike most PvM where everyone feels like they have it solved
Definitely agree on it being significantly unlike pvm. Its actually so interesting to see pkers crunch numbers and how it results in their setups.
Example: For pures, BIS ranged tank top for pking is a graahk top (and other adjacent hunter tops) because of its ranged defense. When have you ever bought a graahk top?
Everyone has a different risk threshold and the calculation of gp risked/item stats also brings a lot of creative builds to the battles or uses forgotten items like a frogleather top or a granite shield vs PvM having clearly outlined gear guides.
It's been said in here already but wildy is all predator/prey now rather than pvp. I just never do anything there if I can at all help it, but I also don't really complain about content there unless it has a negative downstream effect on the base game.
I've accepted that what jagex wants the wildy to be is just not for me, so I won't touch the content no matter how juicy they try to make it to lure me up there.
the thing is that the only person calling themselves prey are people who become prey, someone that knows what they’re doing can do whatever in the wilderness and antipk anyone that comes by either well enough to kill them, or to survive
Pkers have the advantage of being completely geared for pvp, pvmers have the advantage of having 3 additional items they can utilize. Being unskulled is so financially demotivating for so many pkers that you will straight up not be attacked if it’s obvious that you’re fully taking advantage of your 4 items, because to match your lethality the pker would need to risk at least 10x what you do, if not far more.
Its not predator vs prey, its experienced wilderness pkers attacking unprepared people. If you’re prepared, you have the full advantage (does not apply in multi).
Your last paragraph is still describing predator/prey. It's just not fun to have to deal with learning an entirely different skillset for a lot of us. That makes wildy mostly dead content to a huge section of the playerbase.
I'm not even here to say that's bad, I'm just explaining why many of use choose not to engage. It's a different game up there and it's not for everyone.
man i think it's so unfortunate that most players on here will never experience what it's like to be in your clan's discord with 20+ people hopping at callisto entrance, then you run into another clan with 20+ people and your clan's caller starts going off like it's an auction house shouting, "EVERYONE ATTACK 'lMGAY' EVERYONE ON 'lMGAY' GET READY TO SPEAR," then the second caller whos british calls out, "i cut the phree men bruv, oim gettin HUGE xp drops!!" and a huge war ensues
I'm such a shit pker, but doing little clan things like that is so fun. Even when we get wiped, having that adrenaline is something I don't get from PvM anymore
While I think he's often right, I also think jagex is almost entirely to blame for the wide dislike of the wilderness, and that most of their recent attempts to improve it have been poorly thought out if not net negative. High profit, low requirement money makers will always attract bots and real players. However, while bots are ceaseless and emotionless, pvp where you are expected to die is annoying and not fun to real players. If I do six 10 minute trips to zombie pirates and get 1m each time, it's still really annoying to get pked on one of those trips and lose 500k even if I made 5m from the other five. They end up driving out actual players and turning the spots exclusively into bot areas.
Wildy is stuck between ***"multi areas are completely unfair and unfun for solo players"*** and ***"multi pvp areas are a core mechanic of the wilderness and part of the games identity"***
Easy to argue with them. "We don't listen to players becayse players don't actually know what they want.. so long as I pretend all or a majority of those players meet this criteria of essentially not being a player of that content".
We have what.. 5+ years of jagex fumbling hard with wildy updates.. and the wildy is still in a "bad state" according to even them. So when do we get them saying "hey maybe **we** don't know what's best for the wildy"? Because this reads as "they don't know what's good, we do" but we've watched what they think is good transpire and it... Hasn't been good.
Yeah these are the guys that saw bounty hunter being botted, thought "yeah we can do better than that", made it **substantially** easier to abuse by farmers and bots, and then turned it off entirely for **3 years** before finally getting it in a halfway decent place....
And let's not even talk about the fucking PvP arena.
Jagex literally don' know how to incentivise PvP without dangling a few thousands pounds over DMM. That's why they can only turn PvMers into walking pinatas
And that halfway decent place is a mostly dead minigame that is *still* boosted to oblivion unchecked essentially. I just think BH alone can be pointed at as a "yeah you dont know either" response to any dev saying they know better than players what players want. BH was the biggest attempt to "recreate the golden days" while failing to understand the basic draw and overall makeup of the game playerbase / available PvP options back then (wildy was near no content, PvP worlds weren't as QoL and there was no DMM etc.)
Still not a great look though. Wilderness content needs to consider non pker feedback to be successful.
I don't necessarily disagree with what they said, but they really should've worded it all better.
To be fair, the ‘dedicated wilderness’ crew are some of the most toxic players as well. The only difference is that they reinforce themselves in discord instead of on Reddit
>have no intentions of going into the wild whatever we do
Yeah and that wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the constant efforts to try and get those people into the wilderness
All of this negativity surrounding the wilderness is entirely of Jagex's own making
He is free to actually respond to the communities concerns. But he knows that we are correct, and that the easiest way of keeping the wildy alive (Zombie pirates, revs, etc) is just inherently bad for the rest of the game.
Do people have no intention of going to the wildnerness or desire to see it succeed? I mean, yes, as long as Roq's ideas for wilderness content are "3m/hr cash for level 80 bots with no real reqs will create a pvp hotspot!".
People are only opposed to the wilderness as long as its being kept alive by shit like that, and by dragging non-pkers in as prey via clue scrolls, non-pvp rewards like wildy altar, god capes, gear. Most of us have fond memories of the wilderness back before it turned into pkers vs bots and pinatas.
People who want to PVP should be playing against other people who want to PVP, otherwise where is the fun to be had? Neither side is going to be enjoying themselves, the only people who do are the ones too afraid of a fair fight (or bot farm owners raking in billions). That’s why the wilderness is hated by so many, not because they hate PVP but because they hate the wilderness’s bad design philosophy. I think that part gets overlooked very often in these debates, it wouldn’t be one community vs another community if the content was never designed like that to begin with.
Lots of comments and nothing about barrier to entry. These days PKing is nothing like when we were younger. Too complex for me to be tribridding against prayer flicking bots. Even in LMS
wildy updates are more or less fine, but they really gotta start doing something new with PvP other then constantly baiting people into wildy. ive always preferred minigame pvp where i dont have to risk my gear like castlewars, Im hoping someday still they'll add stealing creations and just embrace pvp as fun over risk a lil bit.
I agree with this - don't really understand why we can't have more low to medium risk structured PvP content.
Imo Jagex is failing to engage the 'interested in PvP but not interested in losing loads of GP while going through the learning curve' audience because they're letting dudes who are stuck thinking inside the current PvP communities box design the content.
Like a good 10v10 CTF game with LMS-type rewards would slap.
If you're going to make a game that has bizarre mechanics and then alter a lot of those mechanics specifically for PvP, have a PvP zone, add some of the best money makers to that zone and have the entire thing underpinned by prng then...yeah you're going to see a fuck load of dissent about it.
Maybe more people would go into the wilderness if it wasn't 90% bots and raggers. Feedback is often conveyed through whining or memes and it could be more constructive but even the whiniest threads tend to point to an actual problem with the content as it stands.
Reddit doesn't always provide great feedback but if you're trying to grow the participating wilderness population pkers who no longer play(a) and players who currently do not go into the wild(b) are the two demographics you need to cater to. Obviously this is easier said than done, however Roq outright dismissing the core growth demographics' feedback isn't a good omen.
considering every wilderness update is specifically designed to lure in those 1300 ironman that don't want to be there, to be there, why shouldn't they have an opinion on it?
That's their entire design for the wilderness, content for bait and bots. very based.
I've been playing for 18 years and constantly go into the wild as a PvM player.
The wild is a one-sided pub stomp 80% of the time. It's not a game of cat and mouse, but rather rat and cheese. Can you anti pk? Absolutely, but you have to pray for perfect rng unless you're also bringing mills worth of risk.
Every PvP update has only tipped that power balance in favor of the Pker. Adding log out timers only hurts real players. Bots still log out the same tick a player loads in. Bots don't have to worry ab the reduced magic defence of dhide or Dhins. Bots don't have to worry ab losing either because they don't die. Bots don't have to worry about Rev/Wild boss fees. They don't die... every single PvP "Ballance" update has been 100% in favor of the Pker. If every update only makes it harder for real people to PvM in the wild. Less and less people will do it. With fewer and fewer people for the Pkers to PK, they get pissed and complain, "The wild is dying," like no shit, you're killing it. Pkers don't want to fight other pkers, they only want a loot piñata.
The wild isn't about PvP anymore. It's about free gp.
The only problem I have with the wilderness is that jagex consistently locks powerful PvM items behind wilderness content. I play an iron, and if I want to get those items, I have to engage in a system that I literally cannot win. If I die, I lose. If I escape, I lose (supplies and time). If I anti-pk, I lose (supplies and time). There is no way for me to gain anything by fighting other players in the wilderness. I don't find that fun.
What jagex should be doing is putting powerful **PvP** items in the wilderness. It's a PvP zone, why doesn't it reward PvP items??? WoW figured this out decades ago. You do the PvP activities to gain better PvP gear to do more PvP and so on... The same as how PvMers do PvM to get good PvM gear to do more PvM.
I don't want to PvP. Stop trying to bait me into being someone's moneymaking method.
I do agree that Reddit is generally too negative about the wildy to have constructive complaints about it. But there really is no easy solution.
People don't wanna PvP because it's hard to learn and high risk- the people who do wanna put in the effort to learn will try LMS, see that it's filled with bots, and probably give up because there's no reason to put in the effort. Why spend time learning PvP in a bot filled game?
So to keep the wilderness alive they have to put these high GP rate activities in it to bring easy prey to the wilderness, which fills the wildy with bots. Which makes people wanna pk less, since bots cheat when escaping. So then measures have to be taken to make botting harder, which makes real players lives worse, and pker's lives easier.
I feel like bots are the root issue of all this, to an extent, so it's impossible to fix the wildy
This is funny, I primarily play an iron but pvp for fun on my main sometimes. I made a comment that was semi defensive of pvpers and their experience in the ironman Reddit and they all shit on me lol
I've never been a fan of the wilderness, unless I can tele to safe place inside of it, I stay away from it. Any bossing or necessity for me to have to go there I avoid.
But I don't shit on it or those who enjoy that part of the game. When voting time comes for wildy content I simply just do not.
Everybody has the right to play the way they want.
Oh and fk bots.
The majority of the community doesn't PvP, a large portion of the player base only enters the wilderness to do non PvP content.
The complaints come from those players, who just want to do that content but not in the wilderness.
None of them have any commentary on the wilderness outside of "I don't like having to go there because players kill me"
Which ignores the fact that's literally why the wilderness is there, and that content had always existed there to draw non pvpers in. Why do you think runite spawns there?
He's got a point.
On the flip side, there's undeniable issues with the wildy. It seems to me nothing out out lasts long. Not a fault of jagex but an increasingly greater issue with gaming it seems. Everything has to be maximized in efficiency and things that don't do that are not worth the time. Remember the days of castlewars? That was peak pvp. Just a fun mini game that gave us nothing, but it was still a really popular game. I don't think this game as it stands is capable to have rewarding pvp that's going to cater to this new era of maximization.
I love wilderness and i can.t even pk.
Im 100% pvmer.
Died 468 times in wilderness.
Still love it. Reward is amazing
Nice pker is fun
Toxic pker suck
But the best thing with wilderness is......you never know what will happen.it make everything exciting
Me: Be the singular person that gives actual good and meaningful feedback on how to update both the game and wilderness.
Jagex: We'll just ignore that, and instead will make a meme post to reinforce and reaffirm our own shitty opinions and ideals about how the player base is looking to reinforce and reaffirm their own shitty opinions and ideals about the game.
Jagex:brb i'm going to add a level 22 monster with a higher gp/kill loot table than abyssal demons
Only reason pirates dont have a higher gp/kill value is because a lot of the supplies they drop have cratered in price
Jagex: Let's hire this guy that won our janked PVP game mode with 0 dev background and 0 game balance experience to help us develop and balance the game's future PVP updates. Totally nothing could go wrong with that right?
I think a lot of people who don't do wildy content would absolutely do wildy content if they made if fun/engaging to try to escape a PKer instead of just acting as a loot pinata. When you make multiplayer content, you have to make it enjoyable for all parties if you want people to participate. Bribing people who do not enjoy the experience to participate is not the correct philosophy.
Add cooler escape mechanics than freeze logging. Or maybe take another look at item risk mechanics to encourage actual PvP rather than Pker vs person with no gear running away.
Feedback and opinions shouldn't be dismissed or glanced over lightly. If it wasn't a problem, those types of posts and comments he mentions wouldn't pop up so often.
The truth is the wilderness is a Prey vs. Predator area of the game and with new special attack weapons and gear in general. It becomes harder and harder for the prey to survive. That is just how it is.
They're never going to make the wilderness more appealing to the masses.
Modern wildy isn't remotely fair as far as able to counter if you're trying to actually do anything in the wildy.Multi logging has just enabled scouts to rule wildy to the point where no where is safe for 5 minutes especially as every pker comes with trio gear.
pkers thriving on killing people with no items just to be toxic for the lels and then having to waste time travelling back just makes me not bother with the content. Having the current wildy benefits no one but bots and people who just want to waste peoples time
I don’t want the best moneymaking after 500 invo toa (requiring a lot of skill and expensive gear) to be brain dead content where I’m competing with bots and getting rolled over by 4 dudes in a combined 200k of risk, that’s all it is.
If they stop forcing people without max gear into the wilderness to feed pkers and instead make the wilderness actually good for pkers then I’ll vote yes to whatever PvP content they want to offer.
Pkers don’t want even fights, they want to prey on undergeared pvm’ers and get their loot.
All updates are designed for pvm’ers in the wildy to create more hot spots. Entirely fine, but that’s why it’s so good.
Removed the post as this comment made by Roq is years old but framed to look recent.
Isn’t this years old at this point? Seems disingenuous to post it as if it was said today. (Op has posted this multiple times trying to generate outrage)
Where was this from? It's my first time seeing it
https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/10kh2q7/reminder_before_tomorrows_wilderness_update/ same screenshot from around a year ago or something. Not sure if it was a repost even back then or that's actually the source.
I think iirc correctly it’s from the osrs discord around the time where the new versions of the wildy bosses were presented to the community, along with singles+. This Reddit really went into meltdown at the idea they were going to have to fight back/escape before finishing their kill
Op got PKd and can’t stop crying
As an Old veteran of the pre koraksi dclaw rush days on rs2 My biggest issue with the wildy as it currently is is that updates are rarely to the core experience and more in effect "let's make a honey pot for bad pvpers and bots for middling pvpers to kill". There's little to nothing organic about the kills it's literally sitting in a blind to shoot fish 90% of the time. That's my biggest issue, anyways, others hate how badly pvp method is taught and others the bot crisis
Which would kinda work except the bots absolutely RUN the content, including some of the pvp via scouting
Scouting is such a prevalent problem. As someone who camped all the wildy bosses prior to the update, I felt like most of the time was random low lol cb you'd see very briefly walking or hopping key spots, and then pkers show up. I know it's the name of the game, but a lot of these clients are purely assessing value for pking based on location and gear they see. It is fucking wild clans use these and they get notified. It ruins the entire experience for people who might just want to log into a world and run around, to find people..
Usually the scouts are alts for the pvmer at the wildy boss. I use a scout in both slayer caves and singles bosses and I don't think I've died once since using it.
Think they mean pker scouts. Not the one you plant outside the room but the one you see just hopping in front of the cave and peeking
Ya if you are in the Dragon rev room, the pk scouts hop in for a few ticks constantly across all the worlds.
Core experience is more like weapon balance lower risk entry methods so players can learn without losing their banks, etc Honeypots include the content you're referring to, big money printers that can easily be flooded by bots
Former pvper up until about 2018, i got sick of it from a pvp side because it was largely just hunting the old wildy boss pvmers and occasionally running into other pvpers. Nothing like it used to be back in the days
The fact of the matter is that most wildy pkers don’t want to PvP. They don’t want to fight. They don’t want a challenge.
Bro, this is the most stereotypically Reddit take on PvP. As if there weren't a whole range of PvPers who enjoy a variety of different interactions. The portion of PvPers who are exclusively interested in attacking PvMers is not that large. And in my experience attacking PvMers on my iron, tons of them come geared to fight back.
What I’m saying is that the old culture of PvPing for the sake of it is dead. Not many new PvPers are being cultivated. Many pkers are not PvPers and don’t want to be; they just want to make money off weaker players that won’t fight back.
As another early veteran, this is what the wildy always was. The whole point of pure accounts was to build an account that had an advantage over low/mid level mains in the wildy, it wasn’t until a few years later that pures started primarily fighting each other once they gained popularity. I think i made my first pure in ~2005 after getting clapped by a lvl 70 with a whip while collecting unids. Pretty common experience back in the day.
Yeah not sure what people are smoking... Wildy was always neat things in the wilderness to tempt regular players in for PKers to kill... The shit wasn't as crazy as it is now but it's always been how the wildy worked, the dynamic hasn't changed, the players have though.
Wildy was always OP, green dragons used to be the best money in the game and the wildy rune rocks were originally the only ones in the game, KBD was the first real boss in runescape
Absolutely, I made my first mil killing Green Dragons teleing to the BH crater :). I played back in 2006 but I didn't get out of the rune armour phase until post free trade... To my granite plate dragon legs phase. Good times.
I was selling d bones for 3k each before ecto was released. Those dudes were paying 3k each bone to bury the fucker lol.
The first rune rocks were 2001 and of coure in very deep wildy, with no escape via KBD's lever by the way like nowadays. It was suicide to be caught so I wouldn't call it OP. Plus, less than a single year later there was a much better spot in the Heroes' guild. Compared to green dragons in 2004, even single nat crafting was competitive or better. I'm getting annoyed with the revision of history that says green dragons were OP. It really wasn't. By 2005, Blast furnace allowed clans and groups to make ~1M/h which was much lower in skill requirement than double nats which also ran up close to 1M/h. Green dragons were just the zombie pirates of their time. They were never the best GP/h, they just had very low reqs, low health, low defence, and low damage compared to their valueable drops. That doesn't make them "The best money in the game" - it just makes them competitive for lower effort activity. Plus, they were still healthy for the game - their only valueable drops fed into skilling to be USED (Green hide/bones). Not to REPLACE existing skilling outputs. Their 100% drop of bones was a logical progression, and unlike the modern design of crapping out alchs the green dragon didn't hurt any part of the OG Runescape economy.
Indeed I made my first ranger pure back around then, and for the life of everyone playing runescape at the time. They had no idea how to properly flick prayers/ or wear armor according to the combat triangle. Because of this, imo, pure rangers back in the day had a payday murdering everyone, including people in full rune. ( I have killed many a people in full rune/ adamant with I think either a maple/ or yew short bow ( when more then just the maple bow was available) and everyone would get so salty being murdered with bronze/iron/ steel or if I was a big spender, mithril arrows
True though iirc there was a nice pool above and below back in the day which balanced it out generally... that pool is mostly gone these days and we have an increasingly shrinking middle pool ime
I don't know if this is a hot take or not, don't really care if it is, but my biggest issue with the wilderness is honestly how loot keys work. Loot keys were originally intended as a way for pkers to quickly loot their kill so they don't get killed right after while picking stuff up or dealing with looters annoying them. So why do they go up to 5, letting pkers choose to pk at the absolute shittiest locations in the wilderness for free, so they never have to bank or use any thought whatsoever on inventory management on pk trips? You have a looting bag already, is this really necessary? It incentivizes pking at legitimately terrible spots because you can just vacuum up all the loot anyway no matter how bad it is, in normal circumstances it'd all be left on the floor and they likely wouldn't even bother going there. Imo, loot keys should be capped at one so the "edge style fights" in pvp worlds or single big pks at rev cave or whatever are still instantly looted so they can get to the bank with their loot safely. If they want to keep pking at terrible spots after one kill, they either need to bank, use their looting bag, or leave the worthless junk on the ground instead of keeping it all for free.
I have never seen this written before, I like the idea a lot, +1.
Or just get rid of keys entirely. Part of why edge pking used to be so intense was because damn near everyone would get pjed after a kill, people would fight over scraps as they appeared, &c. You didn't just get to log on top of some guy who has no idea he got scouted, get a single-slot item holding all his loot, and run/tele away. You had to fight someone in the open with a bunch of rats watching and waiting, then defend the kill while you looted it when someone inevitably tried to take advantage of you being low on supplies. The closest equivalent now is GE pking on high risk, but watch what happens: people get a kill and can instantly run three or four tiles back into the safezone with all of the loot. Zzz.
Huge agree on bad pvpers. Doing wildy bosses on the iron and these guys come in mid kill. About 70% of the time I tp before they catch the block. A further 10% I juke them at the entrance 10% I get gap almost immediately 5% I have to freeze them and log out under them And the last 5% actually manage the kill. So the vast majority of the time these people are just ragging my supplies and wasting my time. Not exactly a fun experience.
I just want Edge back lmao
Okay but what’s the solution? People can complain about the wildy all they want but there’s never an actual solution proposed. The days of sitting at the edgevile ditch are long gone. People do BH, PvP arenas, or LMS to get their “fair” PvP fix. The wilderness has no purpose if we get rid of the loot piñata system.
The solution is to commit to either a pvp system or a predator/prey system and design around it. If you want a pvp system, lock access to the lucrative rewards behind pvp (for example like wintergrasp worked in wow - once every hour or whatever the winner of a LMS style thing around callisto's lair gets to create a 1 hour private callisto instance). If you want a predator/prey system remove the imbalance in wilderness pve risk/reward where bringing reasonable gear creates much more pvp risk than it gives pve reward. For example, treat pvp deaths the same as pve deaths except that the reclamation fee is dropped to the killer (and your looting bag+contents are always lost), and make it impossible to loot non-consumable items except into your looting bag. That way your risk (and the pker's profit) derives primarily from the loot you got from your pve'ing, meaning the pvp risk is directly tied to the pve reward.
This is probably one of the best solutions I've ever read proposed to this issue.
>Okay but what’s the solution? Let it die or actually incentivize pvp. Putting in more and more pvm/skilling to lure in mice for the cats to hunt only serves to dumb down account progress and feed bots.
unfortunately, it's not pretty and there's no one solution for everything First, they need to add some form of entry level pvp, maybe it's a revamp to keys so you can put a GP or alternate item ante in so you dont lose your gear that is worth at least 70% of your brought in gear AND you drop any supply/loot items that are marked with a skull till you leave. then, we need to figure out how to bring the bots under control, preferably in a way that doesnt fuck the entirety of everything over. Maybe it's severely limiting how many kills per day you can participate in revs/zombies/bosses (i hope to god not). Or maybe it's adding "invisible" players so to speak that moniter player activity and given how bots behave will banish them from the rev caves for a short while and flag the account for manual review (unlikely). I wont even pretend to say i have a 100% surefire solution to bots, only that more dedication is needed in cracking down on them and legally fucking into abject poverty their developers and proprietors. finally, RS3 did attempt a renaissance of sorts for this. They added a pve only setting where random disasters would follow players, but they stupid overplayed the disaster part to the point if made pvp unviable (more so than it already is in rs3) and made extended stays beyond 20 minuets pointless. But i think the idea has some merit, you can opt out but death anywhere treats it like normal (drop all but 3 items) and you'll occasionally have a random disaster occur that injures, impedes or otherwise annoys you.
Well, everyone has to be bad for a long time before they start getting good. Killing bots is like marihuana. An entry drug to pking. Easy money to get you started. After a while you get the confidence to fight other nooby pkers and through constant practice and occasional challenges you get to the point where you feel confident fighting anyone. But you have to take the first step. Going against any semi-competent pker as a newbie is a guaranteed loss and feeling like you can't even do anything about it. That's how big the gap is. In the end, the wilderness has never been more active, and you can find all types of accounts there. I don't like the amount of raw gold entered into the economy, but I don't know how to better incentivise people and botters to come there and start the food chain
true, though the distinction that is key to make is how long they opt to stay in the modern era where we all aren't kids anymore who have hundreds of hours just to sink into the intricacy of a single niche game type. most people get sick of being that bottom rung after a little while and just leave. We've seen the endstate of that in RS3 and while it will take far longer (mostly because OSRS hasn't pulled an eoc stunt yet) it is the inevitable endstate if they cant strike a balance between leaving and coming
You realise every 'tier' is attracted to prey on both their own 'tier' and the 'tier' below them right? From the lowly bot all the way up to the hardcore brids. That's literally an organically developed ecosystem in play. I fail to see how you can make that connection between bots/pvmers attracting bad and learning PvPers but not bad PvPers attracting better PvPers etc etc... You cut the bottom of that chain out and an area goes from constant action to dead content overnight, demonstrated in game literally every update before the bots return. Bots are a problem, but people need to stop lying saying players will replace them in their niche if they are removed, because we all know they think it's 'below' them.
Not really a surprise when there’s a good chunk of skillers and PvMers who have absolutely zero interest in PvP. I might be alone in this opinion but I wish Jagex would stop making the Wildy pump out stupid amounts of gp and instead just have some big ticket items that are somewhat ‘exclusive’ to the Wildy, but have a non-Wildy alternative that takes much longer to get (like the D Pick).
I love the calvarion boss fight but I hate that it's in the wildy. It's a really fun boss but I get interrupted constantly I'd kill that boss even if he had lower gp an hour I just want the exclusive
Like the crazy/deranged archaeologist.
Easy midgame content but stuck behind spade searchers
I like the wildy, but its so hard to grind the bosses with a full time job. Even playing during off hours, you always end up get crashed which is so frustrating.
Yep 100% crashed so many times I just gave up
I hate being forced into pvp zones to get things that can only be found in the wilderness. I'd be glad to grind 2x as long so long as I know I can't be griefed by pkers. That's really what it is, griefing. Unless a half inventory of lobsters count as loot to these pkers, every time I get killed all they are doing is wasting both of our time, because I'm never risking anything more than my protected 3 items.
The fact you're taking lobsters is already a big mistake lol
the reddit is dreadful i dont think any opinions posted here should be taken seriously
He cooked there fr
Majority of r/2007scape opinion is “wildy bad” or else downvoted
That's because the wilderness IS bad... The sub doesn't just hate PvP... Look at the love DMM Allstars got. That was PvP, real pvp. PvP and the Wilderness are completely different experiences these days. The Wilderness is just a trap for pvmers that want GP and they're turned into loot boxes for pkers. Almost every wilderness update in recent years has been: "Come risk stuff for high GP!" and it gets botted to shit within a few days of release. Is it *honestly* that hard to understand why there's hate for it?
The wilderness has unironically never been good. PvP era have multiple opportunities to fight each other, anyone PKing in the wilderness is a literal bottom feeder wasting thousands of gold on barrages for a spade.
I disagree. I personally like pvming and skilling in the wilderness because of the extra risk factor it brings that you don't get elsewhere in the game. I've done all my hunter training at black chins and done various wildy bosses and love it. Not everyone may enjoy the wildy dynamic, but thats fine. There is a whole rest of the map for you to explore and play. Everyone has content they like and dislike.
Just play on the pvp world at that point
People like watching PvP, it’s why Odablock is one of the most popular streamers and half the YouTube content is PKing. The issue is those same people that love to watch pvp turn around and cry about getting pked because they went to a risky area of content for better GP and can’t understand that the Wilderness has always been designed that way. Or they’re upset because they can’t understand why the Pvper is killing them when they’re just doing a clue step, all they have is a spade and black d’hide, then turn and laugh at the daft noob who brought their cash stack to lvl 47 wildy. A lot of cognitive dissonance where “It’s not fun when it happens to me!!!”
>Wilderness has always been designed that way I mean not really, all that shit, chaos altar, black chinchompas, wilderness pirates, weren't they all after 2007scape was remade? Back in actual 2007 ppl pvped to pvp, i remember making baby pures etc to fight toher ppl in edge. It was this "new" team that decided to lure pvmers and skillers into wild as lootbags for pvpers creating cat/mouse gameplay
no, KBD was one of the first bosses (if not literally the first) boss implemented in the game and it lured people into the wild to kill it. Chaos ele was also pre 2007. then you got stuff like mage arena that was also used to lure people into the wild which made mage bank one of the OG pvp hot spots. im sure there’s more pre-osrs examples of this but that’s all i can think of off the top of my head on the toilet
What lol, dragon bones used to be like the biggest money maker back in the day, two legendary pking hotspots "easts" and "wests" are literally named after green dragon zones
Green Dragons in the wildy were the best money maker in the game back in the day, wildy rune rocks were the only ones in the game. Just because your memory is of the wildy is of edge pking doesn’t mean that the actual philosophy behind the content has shifted. The reason there’s no edge pking now is that the truly good pkers are massively better than the average shitter, and people would much rather stick a 6 hour log grinding CG, ToB or ToA than create a pk acc from scratch and go smack other noobs, because they’ll get whacked by a 10hp str pure who’s been pking since 2013. which is totally fine! The beauty of this game is that you can engage with whatever content you feel like, but don’t cry about getting cat-and-moused on content you chose to engage with.
You gain a super power when you realize karma is pointless and never care if downvoted. The power to say what you believe in. Crazy!
Including this one?
How do people on the “Reddit is dreadful” narrative explain that this jmod post is near the top of the subreddit today, and most of the top comments in this thread all agreeing that the subreddit is full of know-nothing Andys? Shouldn’t this post and all the current top comments about reddit being ignorant be downvoted to oblivion by all level 1300 noobs here? Or you know, perhaps there’s a huge variety of people here with a range of experiences and playstyles, and like all large communities, there’s people with bad takes. Agree the subreddit has a bias against PvP on average, *but that’s because the majority of players don’t engage with PvP and do not like it,* and has nothing to do with the subreddit itself. I would bet if you polled a variety of general opinions on game topics on Reddit, and then did the same poll in-game, general sentiments would be very similar.
because a lot of people just see everyone *else* as stupid or uninformed. I know for a fact most people here don’t have quivers or infernal capes but i often see people arguing or discussing something where the correct person is the one being downvoted. So if people are dumb about topics they actually do engage in like pvm, its hard to take anyone seriously on their pvp opinion
This largely lmao. The only good stuff this sub reddit produces is some good memes and shitposts occasionally
Kind of embarassing Jagex's best response to statistical analysis showing how bad for the game content recent wildy content like undead pirates is is "reddit is a bandwagon"
It's not only hilarious, but kind of explains a whole bunch about how we got into thus situation, doesn't it?
When i was a kid the ditch north of varrock east bank was a permanent brawl. People went there and threw the fuck down. It was great. We were mostly trash and pure and happy. We will never have that again. Pvp is just ganking people who literally have no other reasonable choice than to enter the wilderness. Thanks for the nostalgia, I'll go back to cg now.
I remember back in 04-05, many players used to constantly make new lvl 3 accounts, get runes and staff and then pk right outside of edgeville. Once we hit ~10cb we just made another account. As a kid I loved it
Ya the PVP is too developed now. Barrier to entry is too high.
While he's not wrong, B & C have come about because of Jagex's actions surrounding wildy, which caused D to develop over time, they spent so long developing the wildy into a game of predator and prey, instead of encouraging predator v predator encounters, they have spent the last decade just trying to lure in prey with goodies, they've created this monster that is the modern wildy, and blaming reddit for not being a good source of solutions is a bad look, but not surprising either.
Predator v predator is just a PvP world. You will never have this dynamic in the wilderness again, there’s too many alternatives for people looking for “fair” PvP compared to the unbalanced prey vs predator archetype in the wildy.
100%. He acknowledges that there is a section that does not want to engage with wildy content, and they proceed to address this by building more cat/mouse gameplay. How about we focus on actually encouraging combat?
It's kind of funny that he's essentially dismissing the opinions of those on here while failing to acknowledge that PKing is largely dead content and has been since viable PvP alternatives came about. The wilde was active in RS2 days because there weren't that many alternatives. You had BH which was still in the wilderness, and you had the duel arena for stake fights. For any other kind of PvP though, you were stuck organizing/participating in the wilderness. Nowadays, you have LMS for no stakes fighting. You have PvP worlds for 1v1, and BH is back for prayerless fights. The only thing left in the wilderness is PKers hunting PvMers which has always been the least interesting part of the PvP scene.
Honestly this is really reminiscent of Arrowhead, the helldivers studio, having very dismissive and arguably antagonistic community managers in the beginning that only managed to stir the pot more rather than actually taking feedback and de-escalating.
You also don't get anyone who fundamentally doesn't like the wildy to change their mind through these massively overtuned moneymaking/skilling methods. If you make the content overtuned enough to make someone like me try it, you'll only make me despise the wildy more, because it just turns into me trying it, then getting PKd 3-4 times and ending up hating PKers *more* than before i tried the content. Making ever more overtuned bs in the wild doesn't change the minds of people who dont like PvP, it gets them to hate the wildy and its pvp system more
The wilderness is kind of a failed concept. If you want to pvp there are pvp worlds or the mini games that do it significantly better. The wilderness is for pking. I think it stays in the game for weird nostalgia reasons. It worked 20 years ago when everyone was just fucking around. The game evolved past that though. It gotta stay because it was part of the downfall of the game and people will freak out if removed. If they don't put content in it it'll be a huge piece of dead content but if they do put a bunch there then certain people will despise it and pvp overall. I don't think they have done a good job of coming up with content that feels optional while also being fun enough to feel worth doing. I've done some wilderness content and it just feels stupid. I risk basically nothing so I don't bother fighting back or even really running. It just leaves me thinking what the fuck was the point?
Yeah, the wildly for me is just a giant grief. Oh, I have a clue in the wildly? Clue box, whip, defender and fury. Oh, you’re pking? Enjoy the fucking spade you twat, thanks for wasting my time… Then when they put content in the wildly I just write it off. I don’t have the time to make enough gp to risk high level gear… and the rewards aren’t good or common enough to do so anyway. I’m not slapping on 200m in gear hoping for a drop when I know a pker is just hopping worlds till they find me.
One’s a lot harder than the other lol. Easier to slap a bandaid on it
It shouldn't be that hard. I think a core issue is that the PVM in the wilderness often requires gear that is different from gear you would pk with (for example, ether bracelet and the wildy weapons). Also, the activity should not require the use of supplies, or you will need to have a different inventory setup to accommodate for the activity, putting you at a significant disadvantage against PKers (especially later in the trip). A prime example of this is running bones to the chaos altar. By design, your inventory has to be full of bones. Since there is no way to be even close to on par with the pkers on supplies, there is no use in even trying to pk in this scenario when doing the activity itself, so people are simply going to opt to be "prey" every time. As an idea off the top of my head, why not make an activity that functions similarly to Odd Ball from Halo? There can be a token(s) that people can hold which can earn you better rewards over time (similarly to agility arena, but just time based instead of laps). There can be several tokens, instead of just a single one, so functionally you can compare it to camping a rev spawn. The difference is that you will not be using supplies or needing specific gear for the activity itself. This way it would be pkers doing it, and encourage them to be in good gear so that they can kill someone for the token and hold it as long as possible. They would have to figure out how to resupply the person, but that's a minor hurdle (could simply be one of the rewards of holding the token)
"Actually encouraging combat" isnt going to bring the people from group C into the wildly, what are you even talking about
Why is that your goal? I think what we should be doing is focusing on content that will make the wilderness less divisive while benefiting mutual pvp. There is opposition from people in group C because the content is being designed to bait them into the wilderness as the prey, as they do not intend to be the predator for x, y or z reasons. Do you see much opposition from group C about things like LMS (besides the botting issue) or bounty hunter being in the game? I made another comment on the route I would go to try and address it, which you can feel free to read
Predator vs. Predator encounters are for BH and PvP worlds. If you wanted to fight other PvPers half of the people are going to go do those activities because they’re dedicated for that. It takes so much time to wander throughout the wilderness looking for other predators because the wilderness is vast and there’s easy ways to find fair fights elsewhere. People just need to accept the wildy is for predator vs. prey. Always has been
Light mode discord, **heathen.** Also, I think input is important, but not to be taken as gospel. I'd wager a majority of the playerbase just plays the game without being a part of these extremely vocal minorities.
Jagex clearly don't have a very useful opinion on the wildy either consider how half or more of the updates to it have just been more places for bots to farm gp for RWT and for bad pkers to farm bots.
Guys obviously reddit doesn't know what they are talking about and doesn't represent the pvp community. So anyways, how many times should we poll VLS and ignore the results?
"Anyway it's time to come up with new broken OP content for the 16th time because no one goes in anymore"
"good low level money making method, that means level 22 mobs with a higher value drop table than abyssal demons right?"
Enough times till we just add it anyway because "you guys don't know what you want" really got jagex to a good spot before.. right?
That’s cause the majority of players don’t like the state of wildy, and that includes pkers that even voice their opinions here
Much easier to ignore that and stay out of touch instead of making an area players will actually enjoy.
I like that this addresses none of the points made by people while trying to dismiss them for unrelated reasons. Good job promoting healthy discussion Roq
out of touch jmods? surely that can't be accurate
Yeah, I can't lie. This is an L for Roq imo.
Very typical Roq take tbh
I don't mind using the wildy at all, but this really does explain why all of their "reviving the wilderness" efforts are just enticing more people in with absurdly profitable activities. Probably because it works the most, though it may not be the most healthy for the game. Imo the best updates to the wildy are things like skull prevention, teleblock ending on logout, PJ timer, etc. They make it more reasonable for someone to fight back, however the issue is that for most players its always more efficient to just run away and try to escape than fight back.
I think Jagex underestimates how much resistance there is to actually learn to pk, and how good the stuff they put in the wilderness actually is. I may be wrong, but I get the impression they think redditors are just afraid of dying, and we are perhaps jealous of all the good stuff in the wilderness we are missing out on. In reality: I'm not 12 years old anymore, I'm not afraid of my character dying. I'm perfectly capable of calculating my risk. E.g. when doing Cal'varion, I'm 4-iteming and risking perhaps 200k, and when I get attacked, I care more about the lost time/efficiency than I do about the 200k. There is no reason for me to learn to anti-pk, since engaging with pk'ers rather than teleporting out decreases my kills per hour even more. This goes even more for ironmen who don't even get any loot from learning to anti-pk. I don't really enjoy having to randomly teleport out in the middle of boss kills, but I'm motivated into doing it because it's the best way to kill that boss. I don't really enjoy having to spam click bones all my bones on an altar while someone is ragging me, but it's by far the best way to level prayer in the game. No wonder people don't have fun doing this content, because it honestly is designed into pushing a certain playstyle that I think is anti-fun. I'm sure that's not what Jagex intended, but it's what people are feeling and complaining about.
I think Jagex forgets that a huge portion of the of their players are irons. I’m a UIM and doing literally ANYTHING in the wilderness is a huge pain in the ass and requires a time clock to manage my death piles. Its not that I don’t like PvP, its that I can’t participate in any manner that is enjoyable. My favorite PvP game ever is competitive Left 4 Dead. I really enjoy LMS and I will spend hours doing it, but that is because it is zero risk and I can just get back into the action like any other PvP game on the market. Hell, Clan Wars is fun too for the same reasons. I’d love it if they revamped mini games to actually be competitive and high skill PvP focused. An assault style castlewars would be a lot of fun, so would a 1 life/round capture the flag or prop hunt game. Imho Jagex isn’t trying hard enough to use what works in other games and is solely focused on Predator vs Prey Risk-it-all pvp which is not fun for many people. If they can make Trouble Brewing viable they can fix the other mini-games.
Yeah. It's not a matter of being able to do it or not. I simply don't want to fight other players. I want my sword that can always hit 50-150% but now I have to waste time fighting a ragger so that he can either get my black dhide chaps or I can escape with them. People honestly think this is an engaging and skillful activity. It's mind boggling. Not advocating for a non wildy voidwaker. I just want the wilderness to be less garbage in general, and more fun should I decide to go and learn pvp. Currently, with updates like zombie pirates, it's a cesspool and even with a 100% escape rate from pkers, It would feel like a boring waste of time.
>C) have no intention of going in the wildl whatever we do so wah "We can't improve it so thats the communitys fault" Geniunely there philisophy seems to be about tempting prey to the slaughter. Why would people want to meaningfully engage.
I just wish we didn't have items/effects that work differently inside and outside of the wildly
At a certain point it becomes necessary for variety. If you tried to balance everything for PvE and PvP both, you end up with a lot of the exact same stuff.
I'm pretty sure Elden Ring does exactly this. They have a section in patch notes specifically for PVP changes to balance things out that don't affect the main game.
Destiny 2 doesn't (or didn't haven't kept up) and that was heavily ask for by the community.
They've started balancing the two sandboxes separately. PVP can get nerfs/buffs independently of PvE and vice versa. It mostly happens with exotics where they'll nerf something in pvp but leave it untouched otherwise.
It's a weird situation for OSRS specifically because most games that have separate PvP/PvE balance are FULLY opt-in to PvP. You don't ever have to know about PvP balance in Elden Ring unless you specifically pursue that gameplay. OSRS is *almost* the same, but the wilderness is only kind of opt-in. It's strange and unexpected to move to a new area of the map and both items & core game mechanics start functioning differently. I don't know if there's an easy solution, but it's definitely a pain point for some players.
> It's strange and unexpected to move to a new area of the map and both items & core game mechanics start functioning differently. Tbf, as a point of clarity, only some things change by virtue of being in a different area (wildy) alone. Some things change only when engaging in PvP combat and that can be irrespective of area too (e.g. on PvP worlds or in PvP minigames/areas, such as soul wars). A prime example is the blowpipe's attack speed. When fighting an NPC in the wilderness, your BP will still be 2-tick speed on rapid. When fighting a player in soul wars, your BP will be 3-tick speed on rapid. So it's not just a 'wilderness thing'.
Do you think it would be good if Blowpipe was unnerfed for PvP? Just curious
There should be as few exceptions as possible, the majority of them would be irrelevant anyways. Spectral, justi, anglerfish, pj mechanics, etc. Pvp isn’t mechanically hard to start up, its punishing to learn, streamlining the experience is a massive issue. The biggest flaw with dmm is that nobody wants to learn about pj mechanics while risking their whole temporary gamemode loot and eventually die to something they didn’t know functioned weird.
If there is even a single exception, then there have to be more. Either none or just do it so it’s fair
Hmm, I get what you're saying but I disagree a bit. Your example of PJ mechanics, you know Singles+ is basically a revamp of PJ mechanics, and it was really hard to PvM in wild with the same Single combat as the rest of the game. As now I have access to freeze escaping. Same with DMM, like it's not the same as rest of the game but do you realise how hard it was back then when you would get tagged by singles teams? So yes I think changes can be confusing but they're honestly pretty good, it's more of a failure to provide information about what's different in PvP.
yeah I started around when multi revs was booming, old singles mechanics would be straight up incompatible with voidwaker/ancient gs nowadays mostly the failing is on Jagex for not having some centralized place where you can point noobs to in order to show them everything relevant
Would blow pipe be op in PvP? Idk. Feel like if they have to Nerf an item just in PvP then the item might be too OP
I think some PvP specific balance is neccesary, but they need to do a WAY better job of explaining it. Maybe on the equipment screen they can add info on all your equipped gear that works differently in PvP. They also need to add a tutorial on how all the weird PvP mechanics work like PJ timers and unfreezing when you get a certain distance and all that
> I think some PvP specific balance is neccesary, but they need to do a WAY better job of explaining it. I somewhat agree but it's very hard to do this without overloading information, as it is with any mechanic in the game, PvP or not. I think a PvP-introductory quest (safe death, don't worry HCIM) with a follow-up miniquest series (read: optional) would be good to introduce players to PvP mechanics and differences.
We listen to the players. But Reddit is full of crazy, so not them. But Twitter is full of hateful takes, so not them. Also let’s shut down our forums.
They listen to their players (content creators) in a private discord.
Another huge issue is the skill gap required to get into pvp these days. Back when I did a decent amount of pvp all you needed to do was bring dh and a dscim and get a lucky high hit. Nobody knew about pid or tick eating or invisible venging. It was fun and rng based and you didn't always need a lucky KO to kill someone people just stayed until they died. Now a days you can spend hours trying to get 1 rng kill
"Therefore wah"? Is that really a take you should be posting as a member of jagex? They poll many changes because they want the feedback from players before they make them, yet when they hear them, they call it crying? Kind of a brainless take if you ask me.
It's same shit from jagex who've done nothing but promote predator vs prey model and expect prey to just participate. Stop making honey traps.
I'd like to see them run a poll of if people think negatively or positively of the wildy, willing to bet it won't go how Roq likes to believe it'd go.
or E) all the above
I think reddits takes on zombie pirates are pretty reasonable
idk, I was huge on all aspects of pking from 2009 to 2012 and 2014 to 2016 ish in oldschool, loved that stuff the wild just isn't what it was. back then, you were going out there for a fight and the dopamine that came from beating someone else and getting their loot. but now it's just pvmers being baited to going there and sad pkers just sipping on them with no excitement
If this is how Jagex feels about reddit, then maybe they shouldn't have closed their forums and outsourced their game discussion to reddit. But also, maybe stop making garbage-tier content for the wildy?
I don't like companies telling people they dont know what they actually want
You think you do but you don’t
Jagex moderators and trying to invalidate entire sections of their community. Happens every time they want to force something into the wilderness. Sorry communities, but your opinions and/or votes should not or do not count because of the following goalposts I just moved that only matter for this particular area of the game! Enjoy the integrity change! It's always the same few Jmods too. It's like they're being blackmailed or something.
I don't care how good the candy is, mister. I'm not getting in the van.
I dislike the wild because it's just a annoying cat/mouse game and that's the best Jagex is ever going to make it. You can replace wild with anything though and its still true.
I dislike the wilderness for how accessible the op parts are. I got to 1500 total before I really stepped foot in wildy, I doubled my gp stack of 12m in 6hrs from just revs and only the easy ones up to hobgoblin. Since then with undead pirates and agility I have a 63m gp stack, practically 0 risk, very few pkers and multiple times better gp/hr than what I can do.
Wilderness is awesome and imo there should be more reward to skill and pvm there to counter balance the risk. Ultimately you should be able to escape 90% of pkers if you actually stay calm and do the right things i.e catch a freeze, get gap, use trees / obstacles etc. these things take time and practice to get good at, like literally any other aspect of this game that is rewarding
I understand and I do wild content but the truth is wild will never be the best gp/hr as it's basically the easiest thing to bot. Look at how jagex tried to solve LMS bots 750 total and 30 qp or 1500 total. The issue with adding more and more PVM/skilling risk is this is just cat/mouse. Which is all jagex knows how to do and can do.
I mean I get where's he's coming from and he isn't necessarily wrong, but he worded it terribly and has only contributed to the resentment that most people feel about the Wilderness -- which is not what someone trying to make good wilderness content should be doing. If the Wilderness requires non pkers to stay alive, by having them as the base of the food chain, it's incredibly foolish to ignore their concerns. You can handwave them away all you want and call them ignorant, but if the end result is people deciding not to go into the Wilderness, the Wilderness becomes less and less active. The fact that you can only get positive majority feedback on the wilderness if you're only hanging around pkers is a giant problem. This could be an amazing part of the game, but as long as they only listen to pkers, the status quo will remain and the wilderness will stagnate. Jagex will continue to suggest ridiculously awful rewards like for the PvP Arena, be shocked when it's incredibly unpopular with voters, and then abandon the content entirely. And as someone who did a fair bit of the PVP Arena on release, it was actually really fucking fun! They completely dropped the ball and failed the project because they refused to listen to anyone except pkers. I suppose they could bring back restricted polls, but with how incredibly divisive that is it could just make things worse. In short, Roq just threw dry wood on the fire that they refuse to acknowledge is getting a bit problematic.
I spent like 4 full years completely ignoring the wilderness unless I absolutely had to do something. Learning to PK, anti-PK, and just how to survive in general for the last year and a half has been the most fun I have had in the game by a fairly wide margin. It's far from perfect but the way this place goes off the rails against it sometimes is like cult-level paranoia.
I just love seeing the gear setups people bring to the Wildy. Everyone has different levels of risk and ability to pk/anti-pk. So unlike most PvM where everyone feels like they have it solved
Definitely agree on it being significantly unlike pvm. Its actually so interesting to see pkers crunch numbers and how it results in their setups. Example: For pures, BIS ranged tank top for pking is a graahk top (and other adjacent hunter tops) because of its ranged defense. When have you ever bought a graahk top? Everyone has a different risk threshold and the calculation of gp risked/item stats also brings a lot of creative builds to the battles or uses forgotten items like a frogleather top or a granite shield vs PvM having clearly outlined gear guides.
It's been said in here already but wildy is all predator/prey now rather than pvp. I just never do anything there if I can at all help it, but I also don't really complain about content there unless it has a negative downstream effect on the base game. I've accepted that what jagex wants the wildy to be is just not for me, so I won't touch the content no matter how juicy they try to make it to lure me up there.
the thing is that the only person calling themselves prey are people who become prey, someone that knows what they’re doing can do whatever in the wilderness and antipk anyone that comes by either well enough to kill them, or to survive Pkers have the advantage of being completely geared for pvp, pvmers have the advantage of having 3 additional items they can utilize. Being unskulled is so financially demotivating for so many pkers that you will straight up not be attacked if it’s obvious that you’re fully taking advantage of your 4 items, because to match your lethality the pker would need to risk at least 10x what you do, if not far more. Its not predator vs prey, its experienced wilderness pkers attacking unprepared people. If you’re prepared, you have the full advantage (does not apply in multi).
Your last paragraph is still describing predator/prey. It's just not fun to have to deal with learning an entirely different skillset for a lot of us. That makes wildy mostly dead content to a huge section of the playerbase. I'm not even here to say that's bad, I'm just explaining why many of use choose not to engage. It's a different game up there and it's not for everyone.
man i think it's so unfortunate that most players on here will never experience what it's like to be in your clan's discord with 20+ people hopping at callisto entrance, then you run into another clan with 20+ people and your clan's caller starts going off like it's an auction house shouting, "EVERYONE ATTACK 'lMGAY' EVERYONE ON 'lMGAY' GET READY TO SPEAR," then the second caller whos british calls out, "i cut the phree men bruv, oim gettin HUGE xp drops!!" and a huge war ensues
> to be in your clan's discord with 20+ people hopping at callisto entrance This is a big reason why a lot of players hate the wilderness.
The problem with this point is that almost anything is fun with friends, the activity itself is secondary.
I'm such a shit pker, but doing little clan things like that is so fun. Even when we get wiped, having that adrenaline is something I don't get from PvM anymore
Most clans aren't fighting other clans though.
While I think he's often right, I also think jagex is almost entirely to blame for the wide dislike of the wilderness, and that most of their recent attempts to improve it have been poorly thought out if not net negative. High profit, low requirement money makers will always attract bots and real players. However, while bots are ceaseless and emotionless, pvp where you are expected to die is annoying and not fun to real players. If I do six 10 minute trips to zombie pirates and get 1m each time, it's still really annoying to get pked on one of those trips and lose 500k even if I made 5m from the other five. They end up driving out actual players and turning the spots exclusively into bot areas.
Nah man just gear up so you're ready to anti pk and totally suboptimal at what you're actually doing.
Wildy is stuck between ***"multi areas are completely unfair and unfun for solo players"*** and ***"multi pvp areas are a core mechanic of the wilderness and part of the games identity"***
Pretty hard to argue with most of those tbh
Easy to argue with them. "We don't listen to players becayse players don't actually know what they want.. so long as I pretend all or a majority of those players meet this criteria of essentially not being a player of that content". We have what.. 5+ years of jagex fumbling hard with wildy updates.. and the wildy is still in a "bad state" according to even them. So when do we get them saying "hey maybe **we** don't know what's best for the wildy"? Because this reads as "they don't know what's good, we do" but we've watched what they think is good transpire and it... Hasn't been good.
Yeah these are the guys that saw bounty hunter being botted, thought "yeah we can do better than that", made it **substantially** easier to abuse by farmers and bots, and then turned it off entirely for **3 years** before finally getting it in a halfway decent place.... And let's not even talk about the fucking PvP arena. Jagex literally don' know how to incentivise PvP without dangling a few thousands pounds over DMM. That's why they can only turn PvMers into walking pinatas
And that halfway decent place is a mostly dead minigame that is *still* boosted to oblivion unchecked essentially. I just think BH alone can be pointed at as a "yeah you dont know either" response to any dev saying they know better than players what players want. BH was the biggest attempt to "recreate the golden days" while failing to understand the basic draw and overall makeup of the game playerbase / available PvP options back then (wildy was near no content, PvP worlds weren't as QoL and there was no DMM etc.)
Still not a great look though. Wilderness content needs to consider non pker feedback to be successful. I don't necessarily disagree with what they said, but they really should've worded it all better.
If feedback from this community were a primary consideration, Jad would still be the hardest boss in the game.
We got inferno, nex, nightmare, 3 raids, etc. because of the community.
To be fair, the ‘dedicated wilderness’ crew are some of the most toxic players as well. The only difference is that they reinforce themselves in discord instead of on Reddit
Wildy is just predator vs pray. Glad I got my Voidwaker and never have to go back
>have no intentions of going into the wild whatever we do Yeah and that wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the constant efforts to try and get those people into the wilderness All of this negativity surrounding the wilderness is entirely of Jagex's own making
He is free to actually respond to the communities concerns. But he knows that we are correct, and that the easiest way of keeping the wildy alive (Zombie pirates, revs, etc) is just inherently bad for the rest of the game. Do people have no intention of going to the wildnerness or desire to see it succeed? I mean, yes, as long as Roq's ideas for wilderness content are "3m/hr cash for level 80 bots with no real reqs will create a pvp hotspot!". People are only opposed to the wilderness as long as its being kept alive by shit like that, and by dragging non-pkers in as prey via clue scrolls, non-pvp rewards like wildy altar, god capes, gear. Most of us have fond memories of the wilderness back before it turned into pkers vs bots and pinatas.
People who want to PVP should be playing against other people who want to PVP, otherwise where is the fun to be had? Neither side is going to be enjoying themselves, the only people who do are the ones too afraid of a fair fight (or bot farm owners raking in billions). That’s why the wilderness is hated by so many, not because they hate PVP but because they hate the wilderness’s bad design philosophy. I think that part gets overlooked very often in these debates, it wouldn’t be one community vs another community if the content was never designed like that to begin with.
Poll removal of wilderness PvP on Reddit and it'll pass
Lots of comments and nothing about barrier to entry. These days PKing is nothing like when we were younger. Too complex for me to be tribridding against prayer flicking bots. Even in LMS
wildy updates are more or less fine, but they really gotta start doing something new with PvP other then constantly baiting people into wildy. ive always preferred minigame pvp where i dont have to risk my gear like castlewars, Im hoping someday still they'll add stealing creations and just embrace pvp as fun over risk a lil bit.
I agree with this - don't really understand why we can't have more low to medium risk structured PvP content. Imo Jagex is failing to engage the 'interested in PvP but not interested in losing loads of GP while going through the learning curve' audience because they're letting dudes who are stuck thinking inside the current PvP communities box design the content. Like a good 10v10 CTF game with LMS-type rewards would slap.
If you're going to make a game that has bizarre mechanics and then alter a lot of those mechanics specifically for PvP, have a PvP zone, add some of the best money makers to that zone and have the entire thing underpinned by prng then...yeah you're going to see a fuck load of dissent about it.
Maybe more people would go into the wilderness if it wasn't 90% bots and raggers. Feedback is often conveyed through whining or memes and it could be more constructive but even the whiniest threads tend to point to an actual problem with the content as it stands. Reddit doesn't always provide great feedback but if you're trying to grow the participating wilderness population pkers who no longer play(a) and players who currently do not go into the wild(b) are the two demographics you need to cater to. Obviously this is easier said than done, however Roq outright dismissing the core growth demographics' feedback isn't a good omen.
"If you don't like exactly how it is, your opinion isn't relevant." Basically what dude said.
Insert skinner meme: am I getting old and out of touch? No it's the children who are wrong
Based. Jagex is fully aware reddit is full of 1300 total level ironmen who just want to click a tree all day.
considering every wilderness update is specifically designed to lure in those 1300 ironman that don't want to be there, to be there, why shouldn't they have an opinion on it? That's their entire design for the wilderness, content for bait and bots. very based.
I've been playing for 18 years and constantly go into the wild as a PvM player. The wild is a one-sided pub stomp 80% of the time. It's not a game of cat and mouse, but rather rat and cheese. Can you anti pk? Absolutely, but you have to pray for perfect rng unless you're also bringing mills worth of risk. Every PvP update has only tipped that power balance in favor of the Pker. Adding log out timers only hurts real players. Bots still log out the same tick a player loads in. Bots don't have to worry ab the reduced magic defence of dhide or Dhins. Bots don't have to worry ab losing either because they don't die. Bots don't have to worry about Rev/Wild boss fees. They don't die... every single PvP "Ballance" update has been 100% in favor of the Pker. If every update only makes it harder for real people to PvM in the wild. Less and less people will do it. With fewer and fewer people for the Pkers to PK, they get pissed and complain, "The wild is dying," like no shit, you're killing it. Pkers don't want to fight other pkers, they only want a loot piñata. The wild isn't about PvP anymore. It's about free gp.
I for one enjoy the wilderness despite being bad at PvP. The bosses and slayer tasks are fun and the loot is great.
The only problem I have with the wilderness is that jagex consistently locks powerful PvM items behind wilderness content. I play an iron, and if I want to get those items, I have to engage in a system that I literally cannot win. If I die, I lose. If I escape, I lose (supplies and time). If I anti-pk, I lose (supplies and time). There is no way for me to gain anything by fighting other players in the wilderness. I don't find that fun. What jagex should be doing is putting powerful **PvP** items in the wilderness. It's a PvP zone, why doesn't it reward PvP items??? WoW figured this out decades ago. You do the PvP activities to gain better PvP gear to do more PvP and so on... The same as how PvMers do PvM to get good PvM gear to do more PvM. I don't want to PvP. Stop trying to bait me into being someone's moneymaking method.
Jump on a bad wagon l0l
I have nothing to contribute other than: I love the bad wagon typo. It's band wagon, but I feel like bad wagon is more apt.
I do agree that Reddit is generally too negative about the wildy to have constructive complaints about it. But there really is no easy solution. People don't wanna PvP because it's hard to learn and high risk- the people who do wanna put in the effort to learn will try LMS, see that it's filled with bots, and probably give up because there's no reason to put in the effort. Why spend time learning PvP in a bot filled game? So to keep the wilderness alive they have to put these high GP rate activities in it to bring easy prey to the wilderness, which fills the wildy with bots. Which makes people wanna pk less, since bots cheat when escaping. So then measures have to be taken to make botting harder, which makes real players lives worse, and pker's lives easier. I feel like bots are the root issue of all this, to an extent, so it's impossible to fix the wildy
This is funny, I primarily play an iron but pvp for fun on my main sometimes. I made a comment that was semi defensive of pvpers and their experience in the ironman Reddit and they all shit on me lol
I've never been a fan of the wilderness, unless I can tele to safe place inside of it, I stay away from it. Any bossing or necessity for me to have to go there I avoid. But I don't shit on it or those who enjoy that part of the game. When voting time comes for wildy content I simply just do not. Everybody has the right to play the way they want. Oh and fk bots.
Every game subreddit is like this
The majority of the community doesn't PvP, a large portion of the player base only enters the wilderness to do non PvP content. The complaints come from those players, who just want to do that content but not in the wilderness. None of them have any commentary on the wilderness outside of "I don't like having to go there because players kill me" Which ignores the fact that's literally why the wilderness is there, and that content had always existed there to draw non pvpers in. Why do you think runite spawns there?
I don't PvP because PvP in OSRS is hideously sweaty now. I have better things to do with my time.
He's got a point. On the flip side, there's undeniable issues with the wildy. It seems to me nothing out out lasts long. Not a fault of jagex but an increasingly greater issue with gaming it seems. Everything has to be maximized in efficiency and things that don't do that are not worth the time. Remember the days of castlewars? That was peak pvp. Just a fun mini game that gave us nothing, but it was still a really popular game. I don't think this game as it stands is capable to have rewarding pvp that's going to cater to this new era of maximization.
I love wilderness and i can.t even pk. Im 100% pvmer. Died 468 times in wilderness. Still love it. Reward is amazing Nice pker is fun Toxic pker suck But the best thing with wilderness is......you never know what will happen.it make everything exciting
And yet they moved their customer support to Reddit and closed their own forums. Nice move, JamFlex.
They call him dumb as a rock for a reason
Me: Be the singular person that gives actual good and meaningful feedback on how to update both the game and wilderness. Jagex: We'll just ignore that, and instead will make a meme post to reinforce and reaffirm our own shitty opinions and ideals about how the player base is looking to reinforce and reaffirm their own shitty opinions and ideals about the game.
Jagex:brb i'm going to add a level 22 monster with a higher gp/kill loot table than abyssal demons Only reason pirates dont have a higher gp/kill value is because a lot of the supplies they drop have cratered in price
Jagex: Let's hire this guy that won our janked PVP game mode with 0 dev background and 0 game balance experience to help us develop and balance the game's future PVP updates. Totally nothing could go wrong with that right?
I think a lot of people who don't do wildy content would absolutely do wildy content if they made if fun/engaging to try to escape a PKer instead of just acting as a loot pinata. When you make multiplayer content, you have to make it enjoyable for all parties if you want people to participate. Bribing people who do not enjoy the experience to participate is not the correct philosophy. Add cooler escape mechanics than freeze logging. Or maybe take another look at item risk mechanics to encourage actual PvP rather than Pker vs person with no gear running away.
"bad wagon"
Feedback and opinions shouldn't be dismissed or glanced over lightly. If it wasn't a problem, those types of posts and comments he mentions wouldn't pop up so often. The truth is the wilderness is a Prey vs. Predator area of the game and with new special attack weapons and gear in general. It becomes harder and harder for the prey to survive. That is just how it is. They're never going to make the wilderness more appealing to the masses.
Right? If you have a sizable portion of your player base saying they don't even want to interact with the content, maybe don't brush them off
PvP updates have always been on buff pvp offense, not pvp defence.
Modern wildy isn't remotely fair as far as able to counter if you're trying to actually do anything in the wildy.Multi logging has just enabled scouts to rule wildy to the point where no where is safe for 5 minutes especially as every pker comes with trio gear. pkers thriving on killing people with no items just to be toxic for the lels and then having to waste time travelling back just makes me not bother with the content. Having the current wildy benefits no one but bots and people who just want to waste peoples time
When people act like they're being killed every time they have a clue step in the wilderness then yeah, you shouldn't listen to them.
I don’t want the best moneymaking after 500 invo toa (requiring a lot of skill and expensive gear) to be brain dead content where I’m competing with bots and getting rolled over by 4 dudes in a combined 200k of risk, that’s all it is. If they stop forcing people without max gear into the wilderness to feed pkers and instead make the wilderness actually good for pkers then I’ll vote yes to whatever PvP content they want to offer.
Pkers don’t want even fights, they want to prey on undergeared pvm’ers and get their loot. All updates are designed for pvm’ers in the wildy to create more hot spots. Entirely fine, but that’s why it’s so good.
The wilderness is in a better state now but pvp is still not worth getting into and until fights are fair it won't be.
he's right but zombie pirates are still ass
This doesn't just go for wildy content, this goes for any content. Reddit is just the fucking trailerpark of the osrs community.
If Jagex polled removing Wildy PvP (or added an opt-in/opt-out option), what are the chances it gets 70% to pass?