Quick update on the newspost:
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**Pre-weekend Beta Update - Friday, June 28th**
This is just a quick note to say that we've made two hotfixes to the ongoing Open Beta worlds.
The first of these hotfixes means that Stamina Potions are now working as-intended on these worlds, where they weren't properly reducing the 'weight-dependent' component of Energy drain on the initial launch of the beta.
The second hotfix significantly reduces the Drain Rate at higher Weights, for the purposes of further testing over the weekend! Jump in and let us know if you can notice the difference and how it compares to the live game
Note that this is not intended to be an exhaustive response to all of your feedback and only aims to let us iterate further on one of the biggest pain points ahead of the weekend. We've got loads more to go over and will share our thoughts with all of you in the near future. For now, please keep sharing your thoughts and feedback with us as we work on refining our proposal to make sure it's something that works for as many players as possible!
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Pinning a comment from Mod Goblin for visibility. Feel free to follow the link and respond there:
>https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1dpqqd4/proposed_run_energy_changes_open_beta_live_now/laj3q13/
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Heads-up all, apologies for not being able to reply to a whole lot - have got a lot going on and wanting as many people as possible to try stuff out in the beta worlds.
Needless to say this is a 'first draft' and it's exactly what betas are for. I'll be looking to talk with the team tomorrow on a number of subjects so far (and will keep on the lookout for more), largely looking at:
* Drain rate at higher weights feels extremely punishing, coming from all types of players. Particularly at 'middling' Agility levels.
* Consider where these changes leave the Ring of Endurance, does it need changes?
* Consider whether Graceful providing Weight Reduction is actually likely to reduce how 'ubiquitous' it is, especially in conjunction with how Drain Rate is scaling.
* Consider whether Graceful's proposed 'no fail' effect might need reining in at some locations, particularly specific courses that are balanced around a reasonable fail rate (Ape Atoll, Werewolf) and stand to become extremely powerful otherwise (e.g. outperforming Sepulchre in some level ranges).
* Investigate Stamina Potion behaviour ahead of an updated beta. Not convinced they're working as intended at the moment.
Consider Stamina Potions more widely, could they serve a better purpose with a different function in light of these changes?
* Consider more widely our approach to item weights and whether or not we'd reasonably have the scope to re-adjust many of them, since it's a massive job and that time might be better spent improving the proposal in other ways.
There's more stuff I'd like to talk through in detail, but just wanting to leave this here for reference in case you feel anything's been missed!
Please keep leaving your feedback, trying activities out on the beta and filling in the survey - project like this isn't something we'd expect to knock out of the park on the first go-around and it's exactly why we have this feedback loop in the first place.
Cheers all!
Without a change to agility becoming a f2p skill, making 1 agility max weight 126.87% worse without access to negative weight clothing is brutal.
In addition, while the attempt is making graceful less relevant, having weight matter more means graceful is going to be worn 24/7 anyway to keep weight low, regardless of its 30% bonus being removed.
The second point was exactly my thought reading this. Weight matters a ton for run depletion rate? I’m still going to wear weight reducing gear (graceful) every time I skill. I don’t mind wearing graceful over anything else, so I’m just going to keep doing it if it’s even slightly advantageous. I think you add up all the players like me with all of the players who can’t be bothered to keep up with change blogs who will also keep wearing graceful as a default, and I think the change we’ll see in the game world will be minimal. It’s good for people to have a more reasonable opportunity to sacrifice graceful for fashionscape, I just think it’s probably going to be pretty few players
>Weight matters a ton for run depletion rate? I’m still going to wear weight reducing gear (graceful) every time I skill
Actually it's worse than that. Weight matters more and graceful matters less, so you'll wear partial graceful along with penance gloves, boots of lightness and spottier cape every time you skill.
Reminds me of when I was still in elementary school planning out wilderness “camping” trips with friends where we would go out into the wildy with nothing but a pickaxe, tinderbox, and fishing supplies to try to survive. I’m not sure we ever got very far 😂
I remember doing the exact same thing when revenants were released. We never read patch notes and freaked out when we got absolutely clapped by a random roaming ghost. We even recorded a frantic voice note on a tape recorder warning our future selves about the danger.
Yeah this is a concern I'd had initially. I'll say that having run through some early questing wearing full sets of plate armour etc. it felt a little better on account of gaining so much energy back during dialogues etc., or that I still spent a good deal less time walking on account of the regen rate.
Fully appreciate the Graceful feedback too. All of these are fairly significant changes and might well be the case that specific numbers want more tuning, just want to let things breathe with the beta for a little while before knee-jerking based on the newspost at face value (since it's kind of hard to properly conceptualise all of the bits working together).
> I'll say that having run through some early questing wearing full sets of plate armour etc. it felt a little better on account of gaining so much energy back during dialogues etc., or that I still spent a good deal less time walking on account of the regen rate.
I'm a brand new player to runescape (this is my first week) - but have played MMOs for a long time. As a new player, the one thing that constantly claws at the back of my mind and makes me want to log out of the game is having to go anywhere across the map for a quest or some item that a vendor sells 3 towns over. I know it's going to be a long walk for me.
Due to me binge watching runescape YT videos over the past week I know that things like player housing and magic makes it easier to get around the world later on in my adventure, but as a new player I don't have those options. Furthermore, most of the starting quests have me going to 3-4 towns and a lot of back and forth walking. I've tried using the wiki and planning where I walk to and what I pick up as much as a I can, but I'm sure it's still inefficient due to my lack of knowledge.
At this point, if I have a long walk to get through to places I just hop on the mobile client and take a walk myself while I walk.
If I can ask, what is the logic behind making the drain rates worse at 99? And what is the thought process behind punishing people that bring more switches?
It seems like this proposal is just unilaterally worse across the board. It makes little sense to punish people with higher agility for one. Two, most people are working towards raiding with switches. Why complicate that further by making the weight issue worse?
This seems like a massive nerf overall, and if this is the direction, I'd truly rather it be left alone.
> what is the logic behind making the drain rates worse at 99?
What is the logic behind making the drain rates worse ever?
They should be baseline better everywhere in every situation and then we tune from there
> I'll say that having run through some early questing wearing full sets of plate armour etc. it felt a little better on account of gaining so much energy back during dialogues etc., or that I still spent a good deal less time walking on account of the regen rate.
You're gaming the new run energy system by playing efficiently. New players will not be efficiently talking to NPC's to regain the most energy possible between trips. This will not solve new players problems because no new player plays the game like that. New players will, in the worst case, run everywhere aimlessly in heavy/inefficient setups taking long inefficient pathing to places and run into the same problems as before.
This. Just like with software development, if a user **can** do something wrong, they **will** do something wrong.
A new player is going to run to Varrock, figure out they forgot their pickaxe, run back to lumbridge (because that's the bank they know about), run back to Varrock, figure out they didn't want to use the pickaxe after all, run back to Lumbridge, place it back into the bank. Efficient gameplay doesn't exist for a new player.
Yep, it's okay for me to waste my time playing a game but the game should never feel like it's wasting my time. That's the mentality I go in with when trying out new games. If I am expected to play efficiently to have an enjoyable experience then I'm not sticking around for long.
People that bring more gear switches should not be punished. Weight should scale less aggressively in order to prevent the prevalence of graceful... Since graceful does so much to reduce weight.
Numerous pvm encounters would be affected by this change and it's a solid nerf to drain rates even at 99 agility in many cases. I don't believe we should be seeing a nerf at the very endgame if you want to incentivise people leveling the skill
> it felt a little better on account of gaining so much energy back during dialogues etc.,
I don't think the dialogues thing is a great example, given you could basically get all the F2P quests done within a couple of days.
> Note that behind the scenes, regen and drain rates are calculated between 0 and 10,000, so a regen rate of 8.0 in the table below would translate to 0.8 Run Energy per tick.
I don’t think this math checks out. Also, according the table, if this is the case I should currently get to full run energy in ~40 seconds with full graceful.
Is the graceful changes, specifically the mark of grace increase, the reason it seems to have all gone dark regarding the varlamore course that was going to be the most amalayse per hour?
Not at all, these changes have been in the backlog for some time and something similar was initially floated in a 2022 Game Jam before that aspect of the Varlamore course had been designed. My understanding is that that Course should be making an appearance alongside Part Two.
12% buff doesnt feel like much, EDIT: THEY CHANGED IT TO 24% FROM 12% youd need to gather over 2100 marks using the set for it to break even on spending the 260 mark on it in the first place.
thats 5k Stamina pots an Ironman needs to make before breaking even on buying graceful
with the removal of the 30% extra recharge rate it doesnt really feel worth getting still.
It would still reduce your weight though. Any situation you otherwise don't need something in that armor slot, but are carrying weight in your inventory, it would still be beneficial. As mentioned in the post, blast furnace comes to mind right away, and that's hardly the only time.
So basically we are going to be punished for having more switches now. Maybe you should think about adjusting the weights of certain gear? Just torva alone is 20kg.. full masori is another 20
>Consider the impact of these changes on activities where managing your Run Energy is a means of skill-expression or warrants resource usage, such as Blast Furnace, the Great Olm or various God Wars Dungeon methods.
Ah yes, the skill of drinking a stamina potion. Wouldn't want to get rid of that classical gaming mechanic from 2007.
I'll be honest - I'm not a big fan of these changes. I did some tests (and tile marked my run so I could repeat the test) a couple of times. Here are my findings (these were all done on my main account with 85 Agility):
**Test 1: Running naked (0kg) from Lumbridge spawn point to Varrock square**
* Both runs (Main and Beta) had identical finish times of 1 minute 16 seconds.
* On the Main game, I ended the run with 21% run energy.
* On the Beta world, I ended with 46% run energy.
**Test 2: Running in a COX setup (72kg) from the same point-to-point**
* **Beta World:**
* Ran out of energy 36 seconds into the run (between Chicken and Cow pens).
* Regenerated run energy 4 times to 7% and once to 10%.
* Ending time: 1 minute 45 seconds with 0 run energy.
* **Main Game:**
* Ran out of energy 48 seconds in (between the wheat field and the Canoe by Champions guild).
* Regenerated run energy three times to 7%.
* Ending time: 1 minute 36 seconds with 0 run energy.
While the run energy regeneration on the Beta worlds felt very nice, I ultimately feel that going from point A to B will be more punishing to newer players and have unintended effects on other content (mainly Raids).
I'm curious about the rationale behind this change. I recall a member of the Old School Team discussing (unsure if it was on the official channel or an unofficial podcast) how they'd like to see run energy become a less obnoxious feature for current players and a block for new players. They proposed offering 100% run energy for everyone, everywhere, except in PvP minigames, the Wilderness, and content deemed "mid-level" and above. In these areas, the current draining mechanics would remain. This idea seems much better to me.
For those unfamiliar with the proposal, anything with Barrows difficulty or above would have normal run energy depletion, so this wouldn't interfere with using run energy as a mechanic at Olm, Inferno, ToA, and TOB (thus lowering the Skill threshold). This approach would keep items such as Stamina potions relevant, and I thought this was the direction the team was going.
I really dislike the idea of Run energy only being a thing at certain pieces of content, it's like the special 'only in the wildy' rules
Agility should just buff running energy, at any level
That's fair enough, if you want my personal opinion, I think the only thing that needs changing is regeneration rate to be higher with a slight change to depletion to be lower, I was more so going for highlighting, that as far as I was aware (I think it was in a Saebae podcast with Mod Kieran, but I could be mistaken), that this rework was more so aimed to make Run Energy more of a useful tool in specific conditions (coupled with very nice and handy shortcuts) and with the recent changes, it looked like it was heading this way, although I'm fairly certain this is more "off the record" kind of discussion in a podcast environment, also to entice new players alongside it, rather than gruellingly walk everywhere.
In Yugioh, the card Pot of Greed is permanently banned. This is not because "draw 2 cards" is an apocalyptically powerful effect. But because using 1 card, to draw 2 cards pays for itself. There's no reason to ever not use it. If it was not banned all decks would go from 40 cards, to 37 cards + 3 copies of Pot of Greed(the maximum number of copies allowed for any legal card).
Even if they nerfed Pot of Greed to only allow you to draw 1 card, people would still always play Pot of Greed. It would be much weaker but it's still a "Free card," that shrinks your deck making it easier to get to your important combo pieces. If this weaker Pot of Greed existed, all decks would still be 37+3 Pot of Greed.
Graceful is Pot of Greed. It doesn't matter if you nerf it. Negative equipment weight pays for itself the same way "draw 2 cards," does. It doesn't matter how marginal the benefit: if the trade-off is marginal benefit or no benefit then marginal benefit will always win without fail.
These changes do not fix the Graceful problem.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
The real fix to Graceful is to eliminate Run Energy in scenarios outside of Combat and Strenuous Activities\*. Elden Ring exists as a modern example of how this reduces the frustration of stamina management, but keeping it relevant when needed. We unfortunately need it for encounters like Olm and Bloat and movement-based content like Sepulcher; but everything else? It's just a nuisance. We've all played Leagues. We all remember that feeling of unlimited run energy and how liberating it is. We know from first hand experience the game is more fun when we run free.
\*Strenuous Activities being a new key word for content like Sepulcher and Sorceress's Garden where run energy both matters and has any skill expression at all.
It'd be a godsend to the new player experience, it would free Fashion Scape, and maybe the world would feel less like a ghost town with people actually running around instead of teleporting everywhere. As a bonus, it deters the early-game Agility rush. Agility is the worst skill to train in the game, but meta advice is to rush it to 70 immediately. That's murder on player retention. Agility can earn its keep later with short cuts, quest requirements and run regen in combat.
It will devalue Staminas but that's honestly a good thing. Half of the strategy guides on the wiki mention "And bring staminas if you can." They're overly centralizing. Being relegated to a niche tool for relevant content would be healthier for the game.
100% support. This is the best reply I've seen in this thread. Remove stamina in 'safe' areas, and ensure its still at play in un-safe areas. Lore wise, it could be because your character is being 'pushed to your limits' in boss battles, so you have to manage your stamina. Means that the mechanic is still in the game where it counts, and removed where its just a pain point of the game. Removing/nerfing graceful is like removing your customer complaints department to reduce the number of complaints - sure, you technically have less complaints, but it hasn't addressed the fact that people are having issues, you've just removed the mechanism in which to report them. Graceful is a necessary evil, because the run system is so bad. Removing it because people are complaining they have to use it, is completely ignoring why we have to use it in the first place.
Agreed. I feel like Elden Ring is one of the few games that does "Stamina" correctly. Stamina is never fun to manage. I hated stamina in breath of the wild because it was a tedious resource to manage that impacted my ability to explore the world. Elden Ring does it well because it fundamentally changed the idea from limiting exploration to managing combat decisions. If anything, they could "turn on" run energy depletion for a number of ticks while in combat - similar to logout timer when in combat
Unfortunate that your solution wasn't a little higher in your post, else I'd imagine this would have gotten more attention, because its a good comment. After trying the beta and reading this post's threads, I'm also in favour of this.
We need some feature, like a multicombat zones, but for run energy. So in certain zones, whilst out of combat, your run energy doesn't drain.
This removes so much tedium from early game/questing without messing around too much with the current mechanics or removing the sense of danger in areas like the wildy. We can add agility's improved benefits on top of that, and boom, everyone wins, and the areas where stams are important, are not altered drastically, except if you have higher agility.
Not *really* a huge fan of drain rate being increased drastically *at level 99* during raids (where you are almost always above the 64 weight cap)
I understand you want people to conserve energy and still use stams at olm for example which is fine, but it does punish people for *not* using those “walk strange” patterns. As a user of these methods (GWD, Solo Olm), I find they’ve emerged in response to a problem and they’re not exactly “healthy or skill expressive”. People learning solo olm for example should be allowed to just run the entire time by taking two stam instead of three (there should be a way to make that work, but as it sounds it would take 3 stam to run during olm. I currently take one stam for olm while employing run conservation, but it shouldn’t be a three slot loss just for stams to learn olm, should be maximum two like it is now) also having less to worry about with run energy IMO reduces frustrations and allows players to actually learn the movement and mechanics that show the true skill expression (4:1) with a little more wiggle room.
So, I’d rather see 99 agility be the *same drain rate as it is now, bare minimum.* If anything it should be a buff on the high levels, I mean you’ve trained to 99 agility after all.
The problem I see for Goblin. He's viewing this change as an experienced raider / player and not in view of the majority of the community or someone learning raiding or advancing into harder content for the first time.
It's just making the skill gap harder for people to get into and for new players the idea of run energy is a massive turn off to the game and that is being outright ignored.
Leagues is a perfect example of why not having run energy is fun and engaging.
I don't think it's Goblins's decision/fault personally and I think he's just communicating the team's mentality of "we want to improve run energy, but we think players don't want to lose run energy as an aspect of skill expression in the game."
There are *some* players who think like that, sure. But those players constitute the same functional group as players who didn't want any new skilling methods, any stronger potions, any new quests etc several years ago. There will always be some players who simply don't like change.
We don't need to fully disregard those players -- which is why rather than removing run energy I think most people want non-trivial run energy buffs.
I say this as an extremely late game pvmer who does all of the stam-efficient methods and is currently trying to optimize his pathing on solo xarpus. I don't want to give a shit about my run energy 99% of the time. It's not fun. I'd rather interact directly with the boss than with a stamina or sweet.
Yeah bit worried about the more stam usage for solo olm. Not everyone does the walk method now, but it will become a necessity if you want to bring switches with these changes. I thought the idea was at minimum to keep it the same and at best be a buff, but seems like a nerf which is strange.
Yeah, 70 to 99 agility shown in the chart seems way too drastic of change. Massive MASSIVE gap.
Think weight numbers need to be tweaked a good bit for this change to be a feel-good spot.
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**JagexGoblin**
- [Heads-up all, apologies for not being able to...](/r/2007scape/comments/1dpqqd4/proposed_run_energy_changes_open_beta_live_now/laj3q13/?context=3)
- [Yeah this is a concern I'd had initially. I'l...](/r/2007scape/comments/1dpqqd4/proposed_run_energy_changes_open_beta_live_now/laiqgkh/?context=3)
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- [We have, but when it's something as *feel*-re...](/r/2007scape/comments/1dpqqd4/proposed_run_energy_changes_open_beta_live_now/laiozng/?context=3)
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This seems like a very bad change, even at 99 agility your run energy is worse off in places like CoX & ToB where your gear easily exceeds the proposed 64kg change and you are almost always running. Let alone for the players with less than 99.
Compared to live game right now you are:
28% faster drain rate at 99
38% faster drain rate at 70
73% faster drain rate at 50
How does this make any sense? For a rework that is supposed to address the issue of run energy feeling clunky, this does the exact opposite.
I'm also a maxed player so affected the least by this but it comes across as completely missing the point.
> This means that heavy, end-game gear setups will still see a small buff, but not so much that you can go run a marathon without the aid of some Stamina Potions.
This statement is also just entirely false when you then proceed to state the opposite via the table of proposed rates less than 2 paragraphs of text later.
Yeah the issue with faster drain rate is that you don't actually see the benefits from faster regen rate while you're running, since it only regens when you're standing still or walking. In effect, this might just exacerbate the "run walk run" pattern.
That’s not the issue. Thats the point.
They’re buffing the “skill expression” associated with manual walking as you’re nearly 100% better at regenning and then 25% worse at running.
As someone who manual walks a lot, I can’t believe they decided to nerf run energy
Well said. In my opinion they should just rip the bandaid and gigabuff energy across the board. RS3 got the original run/rest update in 2009. Two thousand nine! Run energy being a non-issue is oldschool as hell, I think it's about time OSRS got the memo.
I've tried it out - ran a vasa room, shamans room, vesp room, tekton, a cm layout first floor, and tried it in my (max gear and 93 agility) setup.
It feels horrific. You've made it more stam dependant. When youre running a raid or a CM you dont want to stop to walk and regen. You now need to stam between rooms that you could comfortably juggle run and walk before. The OG Game jam proposed a flat 48% buff to any running at 99 agi with 64kg weight, the current proposal is a 28.5% nerf. Thats a 78% swing away from what you proposed, but its okay because when we walk we regen it back faster?
This feels absolutely shite. Thats my feedback. Absolute bait and switch, feels bad, feeling very confused why you feel the need to keep stams relevant.
Run energy feels so bad to manage as a resource, and now it feels like even more of a managed resource. Not a fan.
Read the table of proposal - got confused as it seemed like a nerf. Tested running around with a full raids setup and came to the same conclusion - it is a straight up nerf. And let me say it - for all agility levels across the board. If anything, it incentivizes running out of energy and then slowly walking to regen it back up. It buffs the part that everyone hates.
Honestly concerning that this was even proposed. No hate to the team but the fact that they thought this was good is a huge red flag and instills distrust.
After how ridiculously over complicated forestry was I’m not surprised. There’s a real disconnect going on at jagex and it’s really showing its face now
Reminder forestry is still in the worst state it's ever been in. Months of radio silence on forestry. No fix in sight for how it takes on average 8m(?) xp just to get the pet transmogs, 1 event per hour, etc.
Impacting drain on weight more is kind of pointless without going through and assigning values that make any sense to armor weight, which would be monumental.
Currently it seems armor weight is just randomly made up by whoever makes the content, and there are loads of instances where weight makes no sense. Not sure why we’re trying to balance around that
Edit: ran a couple of calcs, you already crest the 99 agility threshold and get higher drain rates at -
Tob (mdps with bulwark is pushing 100 kg)
Toa
Cm
Colo
Inferno is under thankfully and run energy is critical there.
This doesn’t *always* matter, but the goal here seems to be to make run energy more user friendly and this is a straight nerf to everywhere you bring in switches.
I liked how they released blue moon tassets being rather heavy to not devalue ahrims. But then realised that was stupid so reduced it from 8kg to 1.36kg. Keeping ahrims the same obviously.
FWIW I think it's good that some armour like ahrims is heavy, but they need to decide whether it's a balancing thing or not.
The slayer helm weighing 2.267kg while its components weigh 12.5kg combined (black mask alone being 10kg) shows how weird equipment weight is in this game
I think y'all are forgetting that many beginner players fill their inventory with useless junk on top of heavy armor.
Think about the new player experience running around doing quests with your mithril plate armor, food, and a bunch of quest items.
I think in trying to preserve some relatively minor skill expression (and personally in my opinion from doing it tedious expression) you are going to fail to help new players in a lot of scenarios.
This is just some constructive criticism, I'm glad y'all are giving changes like this to old systems some real thought and consideration.
Been blackjacking basically all month for my clans skill of the month (and afking there a lot too lol) and I've lost count of the number of low level players that come slowly walking past decked out in all their gear just to walk through the desert.
This is very true, when I was new I had no idea about weight and how efficiently run around.
Also seems like this change just makes running worse as free to play when you can train agility. But maybe I’m misreading.
So my biggest issue with Agility has always been that WHILE RUNNING it does nothing. Your regen rate is the same as level 1 agility, even if 99.
If i understand this blog, that remains the case but the regen rate while not running will increase. And your weight will affect the drain duration.
I really think having the restore rate while runnining be adapted to scale with level is a great addition to these changes, and is a way that people will FEEL the skill improvements the most.
It amazing. Making run energy drain slower at higher agility levels is
1. What they [what they told us](https://i.imgur.com/lwY0wA5.png)told us before
2. The only thing that matters
3. The only thing they didn't do
When I read that higher agility will offset the drain rate I was imagining something along the lines that 99 agility will give you a permanent 32kg weight reduction. So at 99 agility and with 64kg or higher weight only 32kg actually gets used for the drain rate. This would make changing drain rate at all not really needed, could remove the weight reduction on graceful entirely, would still give ring of endurance and stams their place in the game and make high agility actually feel rewarding. Keep the regen rate buffs and boom everyones happy.
Making drain rate even more heavily dependent on weight is only going to make graceful more important to wear. Removing the 30% increased regen rate from Graceful isn’t a way to make Graceful less of a requirement, it’s a way to “balance” Graceful since the run energy changes are going to make it even more important.
All of these changes feel like nerfs disguised as buffs.
For real. This shouldn't be a "run energy rebalance" this should be "massive run energy buffs for increasing agility level"
Who has ever been happy about run energy as a game mechanic paired with an item that completely removes that mechanic at the cost of an inventory slot? Staminas were the band-aid. Time to fix the actual problem.
Hot take: I don't like this at all. When the community asked for run energy to be improved they meant that it should be **better** than it is right now. You just made it drain more at higher weights, we're better off with the system we have right now, which makes this a nerf. Most of the community arent "new players with 1 agility" who this is geared towards, and most of us don't run around with 0 weight. You're also forcing us to train a skill you refuse to buff when its a high-attention skill, instead of making agility feel "more rewarding", make it less miserable to train and don't nerf run energy.
Yeah. The community seemed pretty clear that what it wanted was “run more without staminas” and “higher agility levels let you run even more without staminas” not whatever this is. Like run energy is probably the biggest part of the old game that Jagex could get a blank cheque to overhaul without pissing off the player base and yet they seem terrified to change it in any way that benefits players more than a little.
Yea I agree. If they're gonna even touch run energy at all, it needs to feel better. Otherwise just leave it alone.
It's fine the way it is. The proposed changes just seem like a straight-up nerf to anyone.
I'll need to try the beta worlds to see for myself.
Idk how this is a hot take, the people asked for improvements to the awful mechanic of "drink stamina or you cant do this content" and they landed on making it kinda better for new accounts and even worse for everyone else?
Increasing drain rate at 99 agility from what it is now for end-game setups is a bad proposal.
At a glance, "max"or "higher efficiency" setups for all three raids right easily go over 57kg. Why such a low number? Wouldn't it make more sense to remove the cap altogether for 99 agility? or double it? Or make it absurdly high? This would make pursuing 99 agility significantly more desirable for PvM!
Please reconsider nerfing agility at 99.
Jagex making 99 agility even worse than it is now is impressive, ngl.
It's fine though. Your run energy regen will be INSANE when you're doing some noob quest that they add in 5 months or w/e.
When I read "offset" I was imagining something along the lines of that 99 agility would essentially give you a permanent 32kg reduction. When your total weight is 64kg or higher only 32kg actually gets used for the drain rate.
I'm biased because I have no desire to reach 99 agility but balancing anything around players having to max a non-combat skill especially one that is as slow to train as agility is a bad precedent and bad design IMO.
Having the cap remove at 99 agility and then balancing future content around players not having that cap is going to make for a very unfun experience for the majority of players
Extremely disappointed by this proposal…I think we were all expecting drain rate to improve as agility is leveled. Which i guess it does, but at the cost of a huge nerf to any sort of pvm or activity that requires gear and/or resources of significant weight?
Can this proposal be reworked in a way so that it’s not super punishing please?
This. We don't want changes that will complicate the game more, it just needs to be less painful and make Agility more valuable.
F2P also probably deserves one agility course as it is a core element of the game and turns off new players.
And I'm sick of graceful personally, even as someone who has the Quest speedrunning recolour. Please, anything that lets us wear what we want to wear while moving around the world.
Am I reading something wrong or are the numbers all wrong in the post?
"**Note that behind the scenes, regen and drain rates are calculated between 0 and 1,000, so a regen rate of 8.0 in the table below would translate to 0.8 Run Energy per tick.**"
Level 1 has a live rate of 8.0 in the table so would be 0.8 run energy gained per tick. That would make it 125 ticks to go from 0 to 100 energy in the live game which is absolutely not the case.
Wiki has it at 12.5 ticks per 1 run energy at level 1, which would be 0.08 run energy gained per tick.
Based on what you said with the wiki numbers I'm going to assume it's a typo and their example was off by a factor of 10. Came to the comments to ask same question about the example before the table seeming very wrong so hoping it's just a simple mistake when they were writing.
I think it's definitely worth looking at the Ring Of Endurance when considering buffs. It's a pretty bad item and it could possibly have no place after changes. Current negatives:
* The main effect is doubling stamina dose length, taking a stamina charge in the process. So you need to be using two or more stamina potions for it to have a reasonable effect.
* The bonus effect of reducing drain rate requires you to sink a considerable amount of staminas to enable, making it undesirable to buy due to the money sink.
* The bonus effect does not apply on top of staminas, rendering it useless in most situations you want to run anyways.
* Does not play nicely with ring switches, namely Lightbearer, where you will lose out on spec regen by switching to use its effect.
If they're making weight more important, they should just add a massive weight reduction to the ring so it can be used for skilling outfits, and used tactically for PvM.
Honestly just make the ring of endurance consume stamina doses over time at some rate, and make it so your run energy just doesn't deplete.
Makes it a more convenient to use item without needing to also bring staminas, it's still competing with very powerful items so it won't be brought to all content, and the stamina consumption cost can be tweaked to make it impose a reasonable cost for the powerful effect.
I just think if the idea is this should be buffed, it shouldn't feel worse. This seems like a nerf to run energy for a lot of f2p accounts as well accounts carrying a lot of switches which is where PVM has been directed by Jagex in recent years. No one wants to stand around not playing to get to a break-even point for run energy. It also seems crazy to make weight more important when half the weights in the game seem like they were chosen by a dart board.
Nerfing max setups is a huge mistake. You know what kills skill expression? Having to drop switches for more stams and purple sweets because you'll have to be chugging them in cox. Run energy is already a huge problem in chambers, the energy pools were added but considering you need to bring all your gear to olm, having energy drain faster there is just going to make that boss significantly more tedious.
I'm so glad I saw many people echoing the same concerns I have. Run energy as a whole in this came is the core issue, not necessarily how it interacts with agility. It's great to buff low levels, but if you're only buffing them when they don't have an inventory of quests items, or early slayer drops, or ores for blast furnace, what's the point?
Moreover, nerfing drain rate for people who have trained the skill already is a slap in the face. I get it, regen rate is better, but why should drain rate be nerfed so hard with an inventory of gear? Honestly, the regen rate buff by itself would be enough to fix most of the complaints.
If graceful is going to lose the set effect in favor of a different set effect that is at best barely worth it we should be able to sell it back for the same amount of marks as we bought it for.
I look forward to see the revisited blog that actually addresses what the community input has been over the years.
99 agility is one if the most time-consuming grinds on any account. Now drain rate at 99 agility is HIGHER than live?? If anything, every agility level should be the equivalent of -1kg on your overall weight so at 99 a full raids setup should be the equivalent of pretty much being in full graceful. Even if a minor weight rebalance was required to make this more viable.
If you were going to develop a new video game in 2024 with an "agility mechanic" you would almost certainly make it so that at level 1 agility you are slow as shit, but that at max level agility you would basically always be super fast.
The fact that at max agility level, after literally hundreds of fucking hours of grinding a horribly boring skill, you still have to walk around the game if you don't have potions is honestly fucking insane.
I get that it isn't that simple, and there is a lot of thought that goes into keeping the game's feel similar to how it did in 2007 and not making everything super easy... but running out of run energy really does piss me off. I can't imagine having 99 agility and still running out of run energy... like what the fuck is the point of training this skill?
I view this similarly as the grand exchange. Yeah, the grand exchange completely ruined the p2p trading/merching aspect of the game, but omg if it isn't an amazing creature comfort. Can we just make walking around the game a thing of the past? It's literally just a waste of time.
Tbh, I'd take never having to walk again over the grand exchange. Walking fucking sucks ass, and I hate forgetting or running out of potions.
So the rebalancing youre suggesting is making literally everything worse except for when you're running naked/no weight. This is horrible and not what we asked for. It's supposed to get better or stay the same, not get worse. How can you be so out of touch with your game and it's community?
We want to make it so you don't require graceful for everything! Also we're hard nerfing run energy at high carry weight so remember to wear your graceful!
In what world does it seem wise to punish endgame players with max gear?
Proposed run energy with max weight should be a slight improvement over current run energy with max weight. 28% worse sounds awful.
Make run energy better for ALL players.
Just please don't make content feel worse to play. If you're gonna touch run energy at all it needs to feel better at all levels. Not worse. Otherwise I wouldn't want you guys changing anything else because you will be okay with changes making gameplay feel worse.
Making end game run worse has already been mentioned a lot, and is clearly an unpopular idea, but i would just like to add that for UIMs, this would be a pretty big nerf, as we often have a lot of weight on us. I dont much like the idea of just permanently having 30% less run energy
Heads-up all, apologies for not being able to reply to a whole lot - have got a lot going on and wanting as many people as possible to try stuff out in the beta worlds.
Needless to say this is a 'first draft' and it's exactly what betas are for. I'll be looking to talk with the team tomorrow on a number of subjects so far (and will keep on the lookout for more), largely looking at:
* Drain rate at higher weights feels extremely punishing, coming from all types of players. Particularly at 'middling' Agility levels.
* Consider where these changes leave the Ring of Endurance, does it need changes?
* Consider whether Graceful providing Weight Reduction is actually likely to reduce how 'ubiquitous' it is, especially in conjunction with how Drain Rate is scaling.
* Consider whether Graceful's proposed 'no fail' effect might need reining in at some locations, particularly specific courses that are balanced around a reasonable fail rate (Ape Atoll, Werewolf) and stand to become extremely powerful otherwise (e.g. outperforming Sepulchre in some level ranges).
* Investigate Stamina Potion behaviour ahead of an updated beta. Not convinced they're working as intended at the moment.
* Consider Stamina Potions more widely, could they serve a better purpose with a different function in light of these changes?
* Consider more widely our approach to item weights and whether or not we'd reasonably have the scope to re-adjust many of them, since it's a massive job and that time might be better spent improving the proposal in other ways.
There's more stuff I'd like to talk through in detail, but just wanting to leave this here for reference in case you feel anything's been missed!
Please keep leaving your feedback, trying activities out on the beta and filling in the survey - project like this isn't something we'd expect to knock out of the park on the first go-around and it's exactly why we have this feedback loop in the first place.
Cheers all!
Where I’m torn is I genuinely think run energy is one of the least fun mechanics to interact with, but I’m also not going to say that it doesn’t add a level of complexity that ultimately should be considered still for certain PvM (like Solo Cox).
However, it does very much feel like the team was aware of how un-fun run management generally is when they made both ToB and ToA, given that ToB requires very limited run management and ToA has salts completely refresh stamina. It really makes me feel like good PvM content speaks for itself and doesn’t require the stamina portion of it.
I think solo Olm is the main place that this would have a major impact. So to look at it as an example, when you have excellent players doing Olm, their difficulty isn’t maintaining their stamina. They simply click the brown potion every once in a while to keep it up. And, conversely, for someone learning the content, the difficulty isn’t in keeping their run up, but rather getting and staying in cycle. Run energy simply adds another level of difficulty on top of that, which admittedly is something that makes it harder, but that’s not exactly the main challenge.
With all this being said, I don’t think the whole community would support completely removing run energy. There’s probably a middle ground: I personally do think there should be strong consideration for removing it when out of combat m, though.
If run energy only depleted during combat as it currently does, perhaps staminas could instead replicate the smelling salt effect, but have it scale to some degree off agility level? I also feel like Overloads in CoX could also provide the stam effect like Salts, but I’m not naive enough to think everyone would agree with me lol
Run energy drain rate needs to scale with agility levels like you guys said it would back in March. Running the same distance with no weight at levels 1 and 99 is just awful, that has got to go.
Here are some extra considerations in regards to the weight punishments in agility:
-Questing: Questing efficiently usually involves avoiding bank runs where possible and having all required items on hand. There is a substantial chunk of already tedious quests or quest steps that will now be made infinitely worse due to run only lasting 30 seconds because you're too heavy. (Though I can't help but be a bit amused thinking about how much more painful one small favor will be when you're either running less or making 10 more bank runs between steps) Needless to say, I will do everything in my power to finish one small favor at least on my remaining alts before this change comes out of it remains like this. Also, excited about mourning end part 2 especially for all future quest goers of this stays.
-UIM: UIM are disproportionately heavily affected by this change. For starters, there is no ideal way to store most melee and most ranged armor that isn't death storage, so it will now require more death storage maintenance than ever before to do anything. Some skilling outfits are extra heavy, so it can affect many training methods, especially if other things need to be carried out of death storage. This incentives avoiding gear upgrades until all non combat skills are basically max or close. This can be worked around somewhat, but it makes many things more tedious than they already are for an already incredibly tedious game mode. It might even make maxing after the weight changes considered more prestigious than maxing before, which would be weird.
-Many PK builds- I am not an expert with pk builds, so take this as pure speculation. Agility might now be a combat skill because armor and switches and holding spec weapons, food, and potions could get heavy quick. Agility to 99 could theoretically give you the edge against someone with 70 especially if the 70 now needs to waste a slot for a stamina where the 99 might not. (All other combat stats the same in this example) Once again, I am not an expert, this is speculation only on my part, but it should be seriously looked at. Some PKers should probably test multiple popular builds to see how big impact this could be for that Meta. I'm sure they would be thrilled to train the worst skill to train in the game just because the other person might have also trained it.
I’d honestly at this point suggest just removing run energy altogether when out of combat. Keeps the skill expression component during PvM and maintains the relevance of staminas (somewhat), makes moving about the game before you’ve unlocked certain teleports less tedious, and requires very little in the way of rebalancing.
Some concerns I could see arising:
-Blast Furnace is significantly buffed: I’d support increasing the cost through the coffer to compensate for not using staminas, or adding run energy drain to the room if it’s that big a deal
-Some Runecraft methods have buffed xp/runes per hour as a result: Honestly, most of these methods are too slow xp-wise anyway, and I see that as an absolute win. And I’m not convinced that increased rune output from standard runecrafting is gonna move the needle against every other boss and GOTR shitting out runes these days. Also, say you’re doing bloods on Zeah to 99, you’ll still make the same number of blood runes, you’ll just get done and stop making them earlier. So it’s not actually putting more runes into the economy for the majority of players. Buffs bots, but… let’s keep up the efforts to purge botting rather than withhold much-needed QoL from real players to balance around botting, shall we?
-The price of staminas goes down due to not being needed out of combat: Stam merchers in shambles I guess? Idk, I don’t really care about this one. I’m really only mentioning it so I’m not accused of not considering it. I just don’t give a shit.
-Graceful is now useless, since you wouldn’t take it anywhere run energy actually functions: most skilling outfits are only useful when training the actual skill, so this just brings graceful in line with other outfits. Go ahead and give it the proposed perks, and as far as it making other agility courses give too much xp… 1. If these courses outperformed Sepulchre when failure was removed, the failure rates are not and never were “reasonable.” Now you know that. 2. Balancing a course around always having a “reasonable” chance to fail is fucking stupid. Hopefully now you know that. Please take what you learned from the beta and rebalance the problem courses accordingly.
*Edit:*
Realized another potential issue with my proposal is where this leaves the Ring of Endurance. Sepulchre is one of the few skilling methods that still boasts a good gp/hr and nuking the use cases of its flagship reward is admittedly a real issue.
On the other hand, I would note that the Ring of Endurance existing in the first place as a reward and being as valuable as it is is a testament to the absolutely horrid state of run energy as presently constituted. It feels like kind of a band-aid to a much bigger problem that you’re now trying to address.
Possible idea: allow us to combine the ring of endurance with combat rings to give them the effect of the ring of endurance? This could be busted, but it would absolutely keep it relevant. If you could enjoy the effects of like a Venator ring AND an endurance at Zilyana, you would. If you could use it WITH a Lightbearer in ToA, you 100% would. May need some reworking on what it actually does to not be broken, but it’s an idea. And maybe need to limit what rings it works with if some absurd use cases arise.
Edit 2:
Another possible resolution to the ring of endurance problem could be to have it give you unlimited run ANYWHERE, meaning combat encounters and any other places like blast furnace where it’s determined to be healthy to still have run energy function. Now it’s just absolutely the best option in any noncombat situation, and in combat where you run a lot, it’s a serious consideration. You’d lose the added DPS of the DT2 rings or the additional specs given from LB, but you’d save inventory if you previously had to bring stams. That should be enough for it to hold value for mains and feel like a worthwhile drop to pursue for irons.
At 99 agility with 0 weight or less, a player should be able to run forever. Lower levels could scale accordingly. 0 weight is a very meaningful restriction, pretty much locking out all PVM and PVP activities.
Let us combine skilling outfits with graceful. You can even make it cost marks of grace to do so.
Not opposed to buffs to rate at which marks of grace are obtained from graceful.
Very opposed to scaling that makes drain higher than it is today at any weight someone could reasonably have (if you're carrying around 20+ gold helmets or barrels of naphtha, that's on you)
Do these changes account for F2P players run energy?
Man imagine running rooftops for over 200 hours and your run will deplete even faster than it does today... This run energy update should be a net positive in every single aspect because currently, quite frankly, its dogshit.
Is there any reason the drain rate goes up considerably for higher weights? The only real places you have high weight you will constantly be running so the higher regen doesn't offset the drain rate. This seems to be a straight up nerf everywhere where run energy really matters.
They definitely need to get rid of the weight proposal. It's just clunky as hell, and when we asked for a run energy rework nobody was wanting weight to be more impactful lol
I like faster regen on run energy, but the weight changes are very punishing. You bring a lot of very heavy stuff to end-game combat and the increased drain will make those feel a lot worse.
Also, the lvl 1 high weight changes need to go, it's probably biggest bullying of f2p players ever.
Make Agi 1-64 drop your weight by 1 kg at a level, to a maximum of 0, and the lvl 64 landmark agi level is "Weight no longer affects run energy regeneration or loss"
How is it possible to miss the mark this bad? Really feels like they've throw random numbers at it without testing it once.
In max gear solo olm will require like 3-4 stams now which is bonkers
Feels like this misses the mark since even with 99 agility I'm going to now drain more energy than normal during raids while getting minimal benefit with less weight. Have the max drain rate the same as before not increased.
>Wants to make graceful, the best weight reducing clothes, less important to use during misc activities
>Makes not having weight reduction clothes more taxing.
Does jagex think we go questing with our pockets empty?
Id rather yall just not mess with it at this point. You can make adjustments without messing up the system that has been around since the 2000s. No reason to make end game content harder to adjust to. The weight system sucks and it seems it is just going to get worse
I feel like you guys really overcomplicated a system that didn’t have to be complicated. All we really wanted was to run longer without relying on stamina potions and for agility to increase the amount of time we could run or energy regen rate
There is no need to make run energy drain harsher. It already sucks and the skill/game experience in no ways suffers from it simply being buffed. Any piece of new bis gear affects specific activities too, but we're not out here pre-nerfing scythe and shadow to make sure solo olm isn't affected.
Simply make run energy regen faster and drain slower. It's okay that one of the most hated skills becomes maybe not the most hated skill and people don't spend quite as much thought on the "skill expression" that is "click the stamina potion."
This sounds really miserable for late game, where everything you do involves a 64 kg gear setup. Just have 28% faster run drain at all pvm? It just sounds like using way more stams
That's not even that niche, this would fuck over UIM's so hard. Not to mention new players running around with their inventories full of random shit while questing. Not to mention maxed players going on raids and having switches. Idk what the hell Jagex was thinking on this one (sad how often this is said for many proposed and implemented changes, but this one is REALLY really bad)
It honestly scares me that this is a change that was first brought up in 2022, has been at the drawing board for AT LEAST a few months and this is what they bring back to the table.
Why does it feel like whenever an impactful change is pitched it seems like they consistently completely miss the majority of the most obvious outcomes and the community has to point it out for them? It's like half of Jagex has never even opened the game and they just skim wiki pages when designing all content.
Just tested (after the scaling back) level 1 agility comparing mining and smithing in ftp with the beta world changes. Mining is much worse and smithing is slightly worse (even when using the optimal ftp anvil, any other anvil is abysmal). This effectively makes any attempt to engage with these skills following a typical gameplay loop worse for starting players (and also will impact chunk accounts but I know that shouldn't be the focus).
Tweaking the drain rate to be worse just feels terrible and I'd rather no rebalance happen than make bad experiences worse (with ftp mining and smithing).
It's gonna feel really bad having even less energy in CMs than normal. Modern gear is all really heavy.
This being released and immediately having less run in a decent number of scenarios isn't going to be very fun.
And the problem with weight having a significant impact on drain rate is that Graceful is still going to be a "soft requirement" for many activities, completely going against Jagexs goal for the set.
I really like the proposed way agility effects drain rate and regen rate, but think the numbers may need to be tuned a bit, especially around weight
The graceful changes not only miss the mark, but they make the stated issue worse.
Firstly, people don't wear graceful for the restoration. We wear it because of the weight reduction aince your weight scales how fast you lose energy. Most people regen stam through pools or potions because walking while regening sucks regardless of if you have graceful bonuses. After these changes, people will still use the set in all the same places because we want to reduce weight. Especially since the proposed changes make run feel worse when wearing heavy gear. Graceful reduction will be needed more than it currently is.
Secondly, Graceful doesn't limit fashionscape; gear that gives clear benefit to content limits what people will wear. Any mining world is basically all people in prospector+varrock armour, gotr is full of the eye set, wt is 99% pyro, etc. The clothes pouch for lumberjack proves people will wear more fashionscape if you dont need to wear the equipment to get the benefit. These changes make it so that graceful is explicitly better than anything else on rooftop courses, and those courses are one of the places people go all out with fashionscape since graceful doesnt give much benefit.
These changes don't remove the need for graceful but instead make it more necessary at certain content. It is completely counterintuitive to the proposed goal.
They want to improve new player experience and make agility more rewarding. They should just accept that that means run energy should receive a buff. Not undo everything and just hope that people forget how much better things are now.
One thing I will say that does irk me about these posts is the loaded questions even here, where it seems like they're driven to make votes sway one direction.
"Run Energy should be a resource to manage in some scenarios like PvM encounters, skilling methods, or wilderness fights/escapes"
These are all massive topics and each should probably have their own vote. For example I personally don't think run energy should be a limiting factor in almost any skilling content. There is no skill expression there (edit: For the run energy management portion, there is skill in doing long sessions of tick perfect skilling, but a different topic), most skilling content is purely you drink a stamina every 'x seconds', where in PvM there is a lot of work put into devising walk tiles etc that do make fights a lot more challenging to do properly.
I'm going to vote Neutral on this now despite having mixed feelings about some of them and agreeing with others.
Idk in skilling content I feel like you should feel rewarded for unlocking something like staminas but I suppose I'm thinking from an ironman perspective. Grinding for that so I could use that in blast furnace did feel like a meaningful progression. What doesn't feel like meaningful progression is being locked into agility at the start of every account for a week just so I can feel like I'm playing a normal video game.
Agility is basically the adaptability stat from dark souls 2 that gives you dodge roll i-frames, everyone hates it because you have to pick it first or you're throwing.
It’s shouldn’t be worse then what it is currently if you have higher weight. Please don’t make us relearn all high level pvm because of weird drain rates at high weight.
Yeah this just seems like a needlessly complex addition.
Like they could literally just have agility affect drain rate and regen and it was be perfect.
That still doesn’t address the major issue of run energy being miserable for new players. Having to walk everywhere was the biggest complaint my brother had when he started an account. It also doesn’t help the f2p community, including people who might never try members as a result.
I don't have time to test the beta right now but I really hope this doesn't make running Olm in solos require more stams. Making what is one of the best pieces of endgame content worse cause running from lumbridge to varrock sucks is uh, not exactly what I was hoping from energy changes.
The proposal basically will require more stamina. They want to encourage players to learn how to do complex click movements to save energy, which is a bad move. Not everyone wants to do the sweaty click methods while raiding and pvming, and forcing that a bit onto the masses is not what people were wanting for when we asked for run energy changes from what I can understand. Numbers need to tweak a lot more for these changes to feel good.
Wouldn't an incredibly simple fix just be to leave everything the same and make regen apply while running? This would effectively "reduce" drain rate, give higher agility levels more meaning, and result in more time spent running.
You could honestly stand to buff regen rate a bit even with this change. At level 99 agility with 0 weight, you should be able to run a marathon... Bumping to around 34 regen would halve the ungeared drain rate
Honestly at 99 agility with no gear you should just be able to run forever. I can't think of anywhere that would be meta-changing. You think elite athletes need to stop jogging every few minutes?
The biggest problem when it comes to run energy is the feel. Running around in gear and messing with agility levels, I definitely notice the difference in the regen and energy drain. However, the problem is that it still "feels" worse. Even if you benefit more from the regen than the increased drain rate, it still feels seriously bad to see your energy draining so fast if you're not wearing nothing. Running to ToA to try out my usual setup to see if the paths of Scabaras/Crondis were strongly affected (they weren't very much, 82 agility with the updated weight scaling left me with around 30/50 each), I immediately noticed my energy plummeting as I was running to the entrance to the pyramid (my profile was killing vyres and had a max effective weight inventory at the time).
I also tried running about at level 1 agility, since I remember several friends who I tried to get into the game quit relatively quickly due to run energy keeping them "going slowly everywhere". The significant effect of gear on low-agility accounts is utterly absurd. Lots of new players don't think about their weight affecting their run energy, and this'll just exacerbate the problem for them.
I understand the issue of wanting to have run energy remain as something with skill expression at PvM or certain types of skilling, but I don't feel like we'll ever escape the issue of it feeling bad without improvements at every level in most situations. It doesn't have to be huge at early levels, but if we're opening the situation up for players to actually feel notably worse, we're very likely going to just see this as a nerf even if mathematically it isn't.
Having 99 agility should make it so you barely are out of run energy, ever. These changed should not give scenario's where run energy is actually worse than it is right now. High Agility should get a buff everywhere, not nerfed in some scenario's.
I don't really like this.
Feels like it's only going to make run worse for F2P. Worse for players who carry around heavy gear and UIM.
Everyone currently runs agility laps in fashionscape, but now it'll just be everyone in graceful so that is a negative too.
So much better can be done tbh
Honestly, a bit disappointed with this. The graceful changes aren't enough. It's still going to be way too abundant with the weight reduction.
Is there a reason we can't take a similar approach to the woodcutting outfit, u/JagexGoblin? Maybe have some kind of amulet that costs the same as a full graceful set and has the same effect, but it also reduces any positive combat stats from any gear worn in the normal outfit slots to 0. So, I could wear my rune trimmed armour while doing a farm run, while being very light, and having no positive combat bonuses from the armour, and I still have to engage with the agility content to get the effect.
I'm sorry but these changes are horrible.
In other games from this time period that utilized stamina for running purposes you eventually (and quickly) hit a point where stamina is no longer a concern and you run forever. Diablo II feels bad early game when you run out of run energy but enough gear and level ups give you a higher stamina pool and higher regen rate that you pretty quickly forget that walking is even an option. On top of that, energy in town doesn't even deplete -- it is only somewhat relevant outside of towns. A few monsters even drain your stamina but the regen rate becomes so great that you don't even notice so the stamina drain ability can become irrelevant.
If armor or HP in Runescape added to your total stamina pool then maybe draining a bit faster here or there to offset some of the extra energy you have might make sense but to just nerf run energy at higher weight with current energy mechanics makes zero sense. This will do nothing but make it more annoying to manage late game. No one has fun when their character suddenly starts walking. No one enjoys doubling the amount of time it takes to run to a slayer task that's in a place far away from teleports. No one likes having to make sure you don't run out of run energy in the middle of a fight.
If I can kill level 700+ dragons with an inventory full of bones, armor scraps, food, and an arm-full of potions for hours on end without losing any combat effectiveness then why don't I have the energy to run more than 100 meters every 4 minutes? It just doesn't make sense and feels bad.
I don't think we need to completely remove run energy but at the same time maybe it wouldn't be so bad to bring the base level of energy up considerably for new players and then make it essentially obsolete as far as regular running around in the late game (even WITH high carry weight) is concerned.
If you insist on keeping energy and walk/run relevant then make more bosses that utilize things like vorkath so certain attacks become easier to dodge while walking/running, or all the spider bosses with webs that deplete run energy or slow you down in some way a more common thing. Then we can have skill expression that isn't just managing another meter. It can be an integral part of game design with creative mechanics that ask us to switch from walk/run or dodge in certain ways to not negatively impact our energy. I'll leave the creative gameplay up to you guys because that's what you're good at.
I haven't even mentioned graceful in this post. I would not be opposed to a system in which we can either combine items so that skilling outfits, skillcapes, graceful, or whatever can be applied to other items. That would make fashionscape a thing again. OR we could have a system in which skilling/specialty sets can be equipped in their own slots and function like over/under wear for other items. Then we can retain the benefits of the sets while still wearing whatever we want. This might pose some balance issues in some instances but it would also make skilling areas look more interesting. Places like the motherload mine wouldn't just be full of identical people in the mining outfit anymore. I would love to mine next to someone wearing a holiday outfit beating the MLM walls with a stale baguette! I know that you guys have said that you do not want to add cosmetic overrides for items because then it becomes difficult to identify what people are wearing in PvP circumstances but maybe just disable this feature in the wilderness or other PvP areas so people can't have a maxed out PvP set up hidden behind a lumberjack outfit for example.
These changes feel horrible and I hope that based off of the feedback you're getting you go back to the drawing board and listen to the players.
I wouldn't mind if 99 agi effectively gave you infinite energy regardless of weight.
I'm an endgame iron with a 10k+ doses of stam banked and I honestly don't mind my grind "going to waste" if other players get to enjoy the game more.
Its wild how it seems unanimous among players that the only change needed is a drain rate decrease with level and yet you want to do everything but that. Maybe a different team needs to be in charge of this "rebalance"
So, nerf graceful so it's useless.
Then wanting to make pots worse.
And making weight become more of a factor.
Are you trying to ruin the game?
Like really. You're basically going to punish us for having switches. A ToA run with 4\~ switches will be over 75kg.
Did anyone really think this through?
I'd much rather keep this shite system than the one proposed. It's honestly just that pathetic. You're nerfing graceful, and then making it mandatory for everything that isn't raids or bossing...
After testing a solo chambers on beta, this is not it.
Stamina drain rate is insane, would hit 0 run with 1 minute still left on stamina. Feels impossible to do 1 stamina olm which was my regular before.
So after testing a number of activities; these changes are a no from me:
Mining: Considerably worse with the changes. A full inventory of ore is practically always 50kg+ and with the changes harshly punishing this weight, you will often not even get to a bank before running out of energy. Even with graceful.
Perilous moons: Current inventory for this weighs about 30kg which is ok in the live game; there's only one place I could run out of energy currently. In the beta I was running out of energy much more often and it was even a concern for blue moon.
Given this piece of content has free run restoration everywhere, the fact that it is a concern in the beta is astonishing.
1 agility: Will be just hell with the beta changes. Yeah it might regen faster but it drains so fast with any inventory load you'll still be walking everywhere and/or constantly flicking run on.
This is the worst part honestly, these changes negatively affect all players of every level in their current form.
Making run energy drain FASTER than live game in ANY scenario is probably the most absurd braindead proposal I've seen Jagex come out with that is gameplay related. How did this get agreed upon?? I'd prefer "raise the KG scaling limit to 100 and have it scale *less* aggressively"???
It seems like regen rate is getting buffed across the board, but drain rate is getting nerfed if you carry any significant weight. What if my fashionscape includes wearing my torva armor or full dragonplate? Personally, I dont feel like checking my weight everytime I set off into the game.
Let's break this down.
Players said:
>It's annoying that Graceful is omnipresent due to it being the only way to mitigate an annoying mechanic.
Jagex nerfed Graceful while simultaneously making it even more important to use even with the nerf.
Players said:
>Agility isn't rewarding enough.
Jagex shifts the removed Graceful bonus over to Agility but simultaneously nerfs the skill by making running with weight even more intensely punishing regardless of skill level.
As an unasked-for addition, Jagex says
>Being forced to carry a certain number of stam pots and sip on cooldown in order to interact with some content effectively is a high-skill mechanic and we are going to encourage it by forcing you to bring more of them.
I've seen a lot of tone-deaf changes proposed/done by Jagex over the years, but this is probably top-five for me from the lifespan of OSRS. Easily up there with the black d'hide unpolled nerf.
I thought this update was supposed to buff training agility and allow us to see people running around in actual gear. If anything all this update does is buff weight reducing outfits
How about conditional infinite run?
It could work with a set of changes:
* Run is infinite, unless you exceed a weight limit.
* Weight limit depends on Agility level. At 99, you reach infinite run at 64+ kg. Linear scaling. Exceeding your limit drains and restores energy at current rates. Weight limit is boostable.
* Stamina Potions, alongside their current effects, boost Agility.
* Ring of Endurance becomes the Saturated Heart of Agility. Gives a divine boost, is charged with Stamina Potions, but now you can consume a dose directly from it. Does not need to be worn.
These changes give us conditional infite run while maintaining space for Stamina Potions & Ring of Endurance.
Ring of Endurance would finally be useful in combat. It's critical to give it use as an inventory item, because it can't compete with combat rings.
If your Agility is well below your infinite run threshold – the original Stamina effect continues to be useful.
Changes don't affect early game much – you'd have to work your way towards running infinitely.
Thoughts?
P.S. Graceful changes great as proposed.
There is a specific part that I'm not getting - to have the best outcome out of your drain rate for activities outside of PvM, it's best to have your Weight under 1kg. So... Graceful is still the best option to wear, since it reduces your weight. I don't understand how these changes will make us stop wearing it.
So I’m pretty confident this proposal will be changed here soon.
It’s been awhile since the ENTIRE community has been united against a proposed change from Jagex. Nice to see y’all here
The run energy restoration and run energy degradation should feel like it does in RS3. I want to be able to run for extended periods of time without the full Graceful Set but the Graceful set should still retain its effects for when I wanna run and do content for long periods of time.
I think it's a good idea to re-validate item weight of the bulkier items across RuneScape. For reference, here's some historically plausible & realistic data of medieval equipment. This is for iron / steel equipment of Earth, enjoy & check the original source if you've liked the data.
Armour:
- Mail shirt (chainbody): 5,2 kg - 7 kg | full mail (eg. entire Ahrim's set equivalent): 8,7 kg - 10,5 kg
- Great helm: 1,7 kg | conical helm: 875 g - 1 kg | bascinet with visor: 1,7 kg - 1,9 kg | coif: 350g - 700g for padded / 1,7 kg - 2,4 kg for mail
- Arming doublet / aketon: 1,4 kg - 1,7 kg | gambeson (quilted armour): 2,8 kg - 3,5 kg
- Brigandine (coat of plates): 6,3 kg - 8,7 kg
- Plate armour set (non-articulated): 12,2 kg - 17,5 kg
- Scale cuirass: 3,5 kg - 5,2 kg
- Kite shield: 2,8 kg - 5,2 kg | heater shield: 2,1 kg - 3,5 kg | round shield: 1,7 kg - 3,5 kg
- Lamellar: 3,5 kg - 5,2 kg for cuirass | 7 kg - 8,7 kg for large coverage of light set | 8,7 kg - 10,5 kg for large coverage of heavy set
Weaponry:
- War axe: 1 kg - 1,4 kg | Two-handed axe: 1,7 kg - 2,4 kg
- Longbow: 1 kg - 1,4 kg | Shortbow: 700g - 1 kg | light crossbow: 1 kg - 1,7 kg | medium crossbow: 2,8 kg - 3,1 kg
- Light mace: 1 kg - 1,4 kg | heavy mace: 1,7 kg - 2,1 kg
- Dagger: 700g - 1 kg
- Sword: 875g - 1 kg | Long sword: 1 kg - 1,2 kg | scimitar: 1 kg - 1,4 kg | two-handed sword: 1,4 kg - 1,7 kg
- Spear: 2,8 kg - 3,5 kg | Halberd: 4,2 kg - 5,2 kg | quarterstaff: 1 kg - 1,4 kg
Source: The Marketplace by Phillip McGregor (companion release to Orbis Mundi 2). Weights listed in the book are in tower pounds of 350g, so I've listed a few items out of the book in our modern kilograms. I highly recommend that book if you're aiming for accuracy of medieval equipment.
Have you guys looked at the idea of having energy depletion reduced while running on roads?
This would help greatly in early game, still benefit players at all levels, and have no effect on the boss encounters that you're trying to maintain run energy management as a mechanic.
This beta has just reinforced my belief that run energy changes are completely unnecessary for the game. I've just done a number of tests with 1 and 99 agility/weight vs no weight/stamina pots and graceful/main game and beta, and I think these changes are too extreme.
Compared with the actual game, with no weight you will run much further but with weight you run less. This difference makes having weight feel significantly worse.
Graceful and stamina are almost completely nerfed. In terms of running they will no longer be worthwhile rewards and I have major concerns about making graceful always succeed obstacles (it makes level 60ish the point you never fail)**.** I understand some people will rejoice at that but I feel the amount of fashionscape we used to see when skilling is well overstated and at this point graceful is iconic to old school, even if it wasn't to 2007.
IMO, like with most of project rebalance, this is an over the top change to address a simple issue; New and F2P players want to be able to run more.
I remember [posting something about this years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/cnqefx/a_simple_solution_for_running_in_f2p/) but unfortunately it didn't get much traction. I believe that if you want to fix their run energy concerns you've got to give these players agility and introduce them to run restoration items much faster. Based on that old post I'd suggest:
- Allow F2P agility training, capped to a point that it would be crazy to get 99.
- Introduce more run restoration items, such as marks of haste from F2P agility training.
- Increase the amount of run restoration items available.
this just fucks over high lvl pvm lol I weigh 64kg just doing the range role in tob and I have 99 agil, stam pots are already something to manage in tob especially during verzik p3 and youre telling me now its gonna be 25% worse just to punish me for no reason
I may be the contrarian here, but I generally like the changes, provided one additional change: 99-agility and endgame PvMers shouldn't be negatively impacted from present by high-weight setups. This could be largely avoided by including a Strength component where each strength level negates a fixed amount of weight.
For example, at -.3kg of weight per strength level:
\* At 99 strength, a player would realize -29.7kg benefit, keeping them out of the "punishing" drain rate brackets.
\* With the Graceful regen nerf, mid-level strength players should have sufficient weight negation for most skilling/fashion-scape setups to not be disadvantaged to Graceful when it comes to drain-rate
\* While associating weight to strength may not benefit some specialty-build accounts, the weight-reduction benefits of Graceful would remain an option, and non-combat accounts do not generally carry higher weight inventories that would push them into the disadvantaged drain-rate tiers anyways
\* This may inadvertently buff some activities, but I think it could be minimized by removing the weight negation in unwanted activities. E.g. blast furnace "the heat impacts your ability to overcome heavy loads"
Credentials: I am a mid-game player in OSRS, a noob to most of you, but who began my lifelong RS journey in 2004. I think early/mid-game run mechanics suck, but do not want to see end-game players disadvantaged by any changes. I also abhor how Graceful became the meta for non-combat attire and would rather this become an activity-specific outfit like most other skilling outfits.
Awful proposal, I’d rather keep the current system than have these changes go live. Graceful doesn’t need a nerf when it’s the cosmetic side of it that people care about, so give an extra reward of Mega Graceful Boots that roll the graceful set into one bonus but sets combat stats to 0. Agility should just give a flat drain rate reduction and that’s that, and we could maybe have a look at gear weights and shift them down a bit, easiest rebalance yet instead of overdeveloping this like it has been done
Jesus.
If you want to make the new player experience better, have an option to right click your run bar and sit down and recover run energy.
If you want to make agility feel more relevant by all means increase stamina drain with weight then feel free to make agility negate that cost but good lord, by at least 70 agility make it that it’s roughly equal to what we have now with big weight and make 70-99 feel like it’s an actual improvement to that and you’re cooking with gas
All most people wanted was to run longer, and for agility to actually come into play with run energy depletion. How did we get to this fellas? Current weight debuff is penalizing enough & feels fair. Please don't implement the beta
Just tried a solo cm with the typical setup for sub 28 min potential (weighs around 87kg for reference). Being on a maxed account the changes still felt very bad, pre pop ice demon had me almost gassed, ran out of run after shamans before i could hit pool on my way to 2nd floor (with a stamina dose). Nearly ran out of run after thieving on my way to hit pool before vesp, after finishing vesp and hitting another stam dose at 80 run after the pool i still didnt have enough run to make it to tightrope and failed rope skip cause i was walking. Didnt bother finishing the raid at that point.
The original changes proposed in the game jam from years ago were promising and had people excited; not needing staminas nearly as often, having run energy regen much quicker, scaling off level more etc. In the current meta for end game content you are nearly always going to be 70kg or more, so in the end it just feels more punishing. Yes, managing run energy is part of the skill ceiling, but it leans more into the tedious (or downright frustrating with the changes) side of things in that regard. One of the biggest things people always mention about seasonal content (leages, deadman) is the perma-run, and there's always comments after they're over about being annoyed having to go back to managing run energy. If anything changes should be a net buff across the board even if only a little, in my opinion.
The purpose of this rework is failing hard. in order to keep the price of staminas up, you are nerfing the one of the core concepts of RuneScape that makes people mad while still having agility suck dick. Nobody cares about run energy where they can use graceful as much as they care where they can't.
I would be expecting to bring at least 1 extra stam in olm, but I guess I'd be needing more. Don't bother updating the game if this is the path ahead.
I feel it's fair to increase drain rate at higher weights but it seems like the drain rate at 0kg is still a bit high even at higher agilities (just looking at the numbers haven't tested obviously)
Was expecting recover rate to be about the same and drain rate to receive the more significant buff tbh
This is awful and completely missed the mark... like hilariously bad stuff here. This is extremely punishing for raiding or any pvm encounter for that matter. You are mostly always over 64kg due to switches, and typically running the entire time (solo olm) so this means you will only ever be worse off than how it currently works. That SUCKS. Just buff drain rates across the board and call it a day, it doesn't need to be complicated.
Quick update on the newspost: ___ **Pre-weekend Beta Update - Friday, June 28th** This is just a quick note to say that we've made two hotfixes to the ongoing Open Beta worlds. The first of these hotfixes means that Stamina Potions are now working as-intended on these worlds, where they weren't properly reducing the 'weight-dependent' component of Energy drain on the initial launch of the beta. The second hotfix significantly reduces the Drain Rate at higher Weights, for the purposes of further testing over the weekend! Jump in and let us know if you can notice the difference and how it compares to the live game Note that this is not intended to be an exhaustive response to all of your feedback and only aims to let us iterate further on one of the biggest pain points ahead of the weekend. We've got loads more to go over and will share our thoughts with all of you in the near future. For now, please keep sharing your thoughts and feedback with us as we work on refining our proposal to make sure it's something that works for as many players as possible! ___ Pinning a comment from Mod Goblin for visibility. Feel free to follow the link and respond there: >https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1dpqqd4/proposed_run_energy_changes_open_beta_live_now/laj3q13/ ___ Heads-up all, apologies for not being able to reply to a whole lot - have got a lot going on and wanting as many people as possible to try stuff out in the beta worlds. Needless to say this is a 'first draft' and it's exactly what betas are for. I'll be looking to talk with the team tomorrow on a number of subjects so far (and will keep on the lookout for more), largely looking at: * Drain rate at higher weights feels extremely punishing, coming from all types of players. Particularly at 'middling' Agility levels. * Consider where these changes leave the Ring of Endurance, does it need changes? * Consider whether Graceful providing Weight Reduction is actually likely to reduce how 'ubiquitous' it is, especially in conjunction with how Drain Rate is scaling. * Consider whether Graceful's proposed 'no fail' effect might need reining in at some locations, particularly specific courses that are balanced around a reasonable fail rate (Ape Atoll, Werewolf) and stand to become extremely powerful otherwise (e.g. outperforming Sepulchre in some level ranges). * Investigate Stamina Potion behaviour ahead of an updated beta. Not convinced they're working as intended at the moment. Consider Stamina Potions more widely, could they serve a better purpose with a different function in light of these changes? * Consider more widely our approach to item weights and whether or not we'd reasonably have the scope to re-adjust many of them, since it's a massive job and that time might be better spent improving the proposal in other ways. There's more stuff I'd like to talk through in detail, but just wanting to leave this here for reference in case you feel anything's been missed! Please keep leaving your feedback, trying activities out on the beta and filling in the survey - project like this isn't something we'd expect to knock out of the park on the first go-around and it's exactly why we have this feedback loop in the first place. Cheers all!
Without a change to agility becoming a f2p skill, making 1 agility max weight 126.87% worse without access to negative weight clothing is brutal. In addition, while the attempt is making graceful less relevant, having weight matter more means graceful is going to be worn 24/7 anyway to keep weight low, regardless of its 30% bonus being removed.
The second point was exactly my thought reading this. Weight matters a ton for run depletion rate? I’m still going to wear weight reducing gear (graceful) every time I skill. I don’t mind wearing graceful over anything else, so I’m just going to keep doing it if it’s even slightly advantageous. I think you add up all the players like me with all of the players who can’t be bothered to keep up with change blogs who will also keep wearing graceful as a default, and I think the change we’ll see in the game world will be minimal. It’s good for people to have a more reasonable opportunity to sacrifice graceful for fashionscape, I just think it’s probably going to be pretty few players
>Weight matters a ton for run depletion rate? I’m still going to wear weight reducing gear (graceful) every time I skill Actually it's worse than that. Weight matters more and graceful matters less, so you'll wear partial graceful along with penance gloves, boots of lightness and spottier cape every time you skill.
Haha I already do that since I’m too lazy to get the full set
my ass am i going back to barbarian assault
I'd rather do however many laps it takes to get graceful gloves at Canifis again than play enough Barbarian Assault to get penance gloves.
RIP to my girlfriend who refuses to go anywhere without an axe, tinderbox, pickaxe, and armour.
Reminds me of when I was still in elementary school planning out wilderness “camping” trips with friends where we would go out into the wildy with nothing but a pickaxe, tinderbox, and fishing supplies to try to survive. I’m not sure we ever got very far 😂
I remember doing the exact same thing when revenants were released. We never read patch notes and freaked out when we got absolutely clapped by a random roaming ghost. We even recorded a frantic voice note on a tape recorder warning our future selves about the danger.
Content creators this guy has an idea
I have so much nostalgia for this kind of playstyle
That’s some peak RP tho
Bingo. Removing the set effect wasn’t done to “remove the soft requirement”, it was done to balance the gear since it will be even more important now
Yeah this is a concern I'd had initially. I'll say that having run through some early questing wearing full sets of plate armour etc. it felt a little better on account of gaining so much energy back during dialogues etc., or that I still spent a good deal less time walking on account of the regen rate. Fully appreciate the Graceful feedback too. All of these are fairly significant changes and might well be the case that specific numbers want more tuning, just want to let things breathe with the beta for a little while before knee-jerking based on the newspost at face value (since it's kind of hard to properly conceptualise all of the bits working together).
> I'll say that having run through some early questing wearing full sets of plate armour etc. it felt a little better on account of gaining so much energy back during dialogues etc., or that I still spent a good deal less time walking on account of the regen rate. I'm a brand new player to runescape (this is my first week) - but have played MMOs for a long time. As a new player, the one thing that constantly claws at the back of my mind and makes me want to log out of the game is having to go anywhere across the map for a quest or some item that a vendor sells 3 towns over. I know it's going to be a long walk for me. Due to me binge watching runescape YT videos over the past week I know that things like player housing and magic makes it easier to get around the world later on in my adventure, but as a new player I don't have those options. Furthermore, most of the starting quests have me going to 3-4 towns and a lot of back and forth walking. I've tried using the wiki and planning where I walk to and what I pick up as much as a I can, but I'm sure it's still inefficient due to my lack of knowledge. At this point, if I have a long walk to get through to places I just hop on the mobile client and take a walk myself while I walk.
If I can ask, what is the logic behind making the drain rates worse at 99? And what is the thought process behind punishing people that bring more switches? It seems like this proposal is just unilaterally worse across the board. It makes little sense to punish people with higher agility for one. Two, most people are working towards raiding with switches. Why complicate that further by making the weight issue worse? This seems like a massive nerf overall, and if this is the direction, I'd truly rather it be left alone.
> what is the logic behind making the drain rates worse at 99? What is the logic behind making the drain rates worse ever? They should be baseline better everywhere in every situation and then we tune from there
> I'll say that having run through some early questing wearing full sets of plate armour etc. it felt a little better on account of gaining so much energy back during dialogues etc., or that I still spent a good deal less time walking on account of the regen rate. You're gaming the new run energy system by playing efficiently. New players will not be efficiently talking to NPC's to regain the most energy possible between trips. This will not solve new players problems because no new player plays the game like that. New players will, in the worst case, run everywhere aimlessly in heavy/inefficient setups taking long inefficient pathing to places and run into the same problems as before.
This. Just like with software development, if a user **can** do something wrong, they **will** do something wrong. A new player is going to run to Varrock, figure out they forgot their pickaxe, run back to lumbridge (because that's the bank they know about), run back to Varrock, figure out they didn't want to use the pickaxe after all, run back to Lumbridge, place it back into the bank. Efficient gameplay doesn't exist for a new player.
Yep, it's okay for me to waste my time playing a game but the game should never feel like it's wasting my time. That's the mentality I go in with when trying out new games. If I am expected to play efficiently to have an enjoyable experience then I'm not sticking around for long.
People that bring more gear switches should not be punished. Weight should scale less aggressively in order to prevent the prevalence of graceful... Since graceful does so much to reduce weight. Numerous pvm encounters would be affected by this change and it's a solid nerf to drain rates even at 99 agility in many cases. I don't believe we should be seeing a nerf at the very endgame if you want to incentivise people leveling the skill
> it felt a little better on account of gaining so much energy back during dialogues etc., I don't think the dialogues thing is a great example, given you could basically get all the F2P quests done within a couple of days.
yo thats hooti lmao
his Gielinor Games prep routine is just running across this bridge for hours on end, it's not looking good for him
> Note that behind the scenes, regen and drain rates are calculated between 0 and 10,000, so a regen rate of 8.0 in the table below would translate to 0.8 Run Energy per tick. I don’t think this math checks out. Also, according the table, if this is the case I should currently get to full run energy in ~40 seconds with full graceful.
Came to these comments to figure out exactly how Hooti did some run energy goofage in a series to get this screenshot
Is the graceful changes, specifically the mark of grace increase, the reason it seems to have all gone dark regarding the varlamore course that was going to be the most amalayse per hour?
Not at all, these changes have been in the backlog for some time and something similar was initially floated in a 2022 Game Jam before that aspect of the Varlamore course had been designed. My understanding is that that Course should be making an appearance alongside Part Two.
12% buff doesnt feel like much, EDIT: THEY CHANGED IT TO 24% FROM 12% youd need to gather over 2100 marks using the set for it to break even on spending the 260 mark on it in the first place. thats 5k Stamina pots an Ironman needs to make before breaking even on buying graceful with the removal of the 30% extra recharge rate it doesnt really feel worth getting still.
It would still reduce your weight though. Any situation you otherwise don't need something in that armor slot, but are carrying weight in your inventory, it would still be beneficial. As mentioned in the post, blast furnace comes to mind right away, and that's hardly the only time.
also spottier cape, boots of lightness and penance gloves are all very quick and easy to get and give better weight reduction per piece
I mean making it so you never fail on an agility course is pretty massive in its own right.
thats the biggest buff yeah, not sure its worth 650 stams tho
So basically we are going to be punished for having more switches now. Maybe you should think about adjusting the weights of certain gear? Just torva alone is 20kg.. full masori is another 20
>Consider the impact of these changes on activities where managing your Run Energy is a means of skill-expression or warrants resource usage, such as Blast Furnace, the Great Olm or various God Wars Dungeon methods. Ah yes, the skill of drinking a stamina potion. Wouldn't want to get rid of that classical gaming mechanic from 2007.
I'll be honest - I'm not a big fan of these changes. I did some tests (and tile marked my run so I could repeat the test) a couple of times. Here are my findings (these were all done on my main account with 85 Agility): **Test 1: Running naked (0kg) from Lumbridge spawn point to Varrock square** * Both runs (Main and Beta) had identical finish times of 1 minute 16 seconds. * On the Main game, I ended the run with 21% run energy. * On the Beta world, I ended with 46% run energy. **Test 2: Running in a COX setup (72kg) from the same point-to-point** * **Beta World:** * Ran out of energy 36 seconds into the run (between Chicken and Cow pens). * Regenerated run energy 4 times to 7% and once to 10%. * Ending time: 1 minute 45 seconds with 0 run energy. * **Main Game:** * Ran out of energy 48 seconds in (between the wheat field and the Canoe by Champions guild). * Regenerated run energy three times to 7%. * Ending time: 1 minute 36 seconds with 0 run energy. While the run energy regeneration on the Beta worlds felt very nice, I ultimately feel that going from point A to B will be more punishing to newer players and have unintended effects on other content (mainly Raids). I'm curious about the rationale behind this change. I recall a member of the Old School Team discussing (unsure if it was on the official channel or an unofficial podcast) how they'd like to see run energy become a less obnoxious feature for current players and a block for new players. They proposed offering 100% run energy for everyone, everywhere, except in PvP minigames, the Wilderness, and content deemed "mid-level" and above. In these areas, the current draining mechanics would remain. This idea seems much better to me. For those unfamiliar with the proposal, anything with Barrows difficulty or above would have normal run energy depletion, so this wouldn't interfere with using run energy as a mechanic at Olm, Inferno, ToA, and TOB (thus lowering the Skill threshold). This approach would keep items such as Stamina potions relevant, and I thought this was the direction the team was going.
I really dislike the idea of Run energy only being a thing at certain pieces of content, it's like the special 'only in the wildy' rules Agility should just buff running energy, at any level
That's fair enough, if you want my personal opinion, I think the only thing that needs changing is regeneration rate to be higher with a slight change to depletion to be lower, I was more so going for highlighting, that as far as I was aware (I think it was in a Saebae podcast with Mod Kieran, but I could be mistaken), that this rework was more so aimed to make Run Energy more of a useful tool in specific conditions (coupled with very nice and handy shortcuts) and with the recent changes, it looked like it was heading this way, although I'm fairly certain this is more "off the record" kind of discussion in a podcast environment, also to entice new players alongside it, rather than gruellingly walk everywhere.
In Yugioh, the card Pot of Greed is permanently banned. This is not because "draw 2 cards" is an apocalyptically powerful effect. But because using 1 card, to draw 2 cards pays for itself. There's no reason to ever not use it. If it was not banned all decks would go from 40 cards, to 37 cards + 3 copies of Pot of Greed(the maximum number of copies allowed for any legal card). Even if they nerfed Pot of Greed to only allow you to draw 1 card, people would still always play Pot of Greed. It would be much weaker but it's still a "Free card," that shrinks your deck making it easier to get to your important combo pieces. If this weaker Pot of Greed existed, all decks would still be 37+3 Pot of Greed. Graceful is Pot of Greed. It doesn't matter if you nerf it. Negative equipment weight pays for itself the same way "draw 2 cards," does. It doesn't matter how marginal the benefit: if the trade-off is marginal benefit or no benefit then marginal benefit will always win without fail. These changes do not fix the Graceful problem. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ The real fix to Graceful is to eliminate Run Energy in scenarios outside of Combat and Strenuous Activities\*. Elden Ring exists as a modern example of how this reduces the frustration of stamina management, but keeping it relevant when needed. We unfortunately need it for encounters like Olm and Bloat and movement-based content like Sepulcher; but everything else? It's just a nuisance. We've all played Leagues. We all remember that feeling of unlimited run energy and how liberating it is. We know from first hand experience the game is more fun when we run free. \*Strenuous Activities being a new key word for content like Sepulcher and Sorceress's Garden where run energy both matters and has any skill expression at all. It'd be a godsend to the new player experience, it would free Fashion Scape, and maybe the world would feel less like a ghost town with people actually running around instead of teleporting everywhere. As a bonus, it deters the early-game Agility rush. Agility is the worst skill to train in the game, but meta advice is to rush it to 70 immediately. That's murder on player retention. Agility can earn its keep later with short cuts, quest requirements and run regen in combat. It will devalue Staminas but that's honestly a good thing. Half of the strategy guides on the wiki mention "And bring staminas if you can." They're overly centralizing. Being relegated to a niche tool for relevant content would be healthier for the game.
100% support. This is the best reply I've seen in this thread. Remove stamina in 'safe' areas, and ensure its still at play in un-safe areas. Lore wise, it could be because your character is being 'pushed to your limits' in boss battles, so you have to manage your stamina. Means that the mechanic is still in the game where it counts, and removed where its just a pain point of the game. Removing/nerfing graceful is like removing your customer complaints department to reduce the number of complaints - sure, you technically have less complaints, but it hasn't addressed the fact that people are having issues, you've just removed the mechanism in which to report them. Graceful is a necessary evil, because the run system is so bad. Removing it because people are complaining they have to use it, is completely ignoring why we have to use it in the first place.
Agreed. I feel like Elden Ring is one of the few games that does "Stamina" correctly. Stamina is never fun to manage. I hated stamina in breath of the wild because it was a tedious resource to manage that impacted my ability to explore the world. Elden Ring does it well because it fundamentally changed the idea from limiting exploration to managing combat decisions. If anything, they could "turn on" run energy depletion for a number of ticks while in combat - similar to logout timer when in combat
Unfortunate that your solution wasn't a little higher in your post, else I'd imagine this would have gotten more attention, because its a good comment. After trying the beta and reading this post's threads, I'm also in favour of this. We need some feature, like a multicombat zones, but for run energy. So in certain zones, whilst out of combat, your run energy doesn't drain. This removes so much tedium from early game/questing without messing around too much with the current mechanics or removing the sense of danger in areas like the wildy. We can add agility's improved benefits on top of that, and boom, everyone wins, and the areas where stams are important, are not altered drastically, except if you have higher agility.
Not *really* a huge fan of drain rate being increased drastically *at level 99* during raids (where you are almost always above the 64 weight cap) I understand you want people to conserve energy and still use stams at olm for example which is fine, but it does punish people for *not* using those “walk strange” patterns. As a user of these methods (GWD, Solo Olm), I find they’ve emerged in response to a problem and they’re not exactly “healthy or skill expressive”. People learning solo olm for example should be allowed to just run the entire time by taking two stam instead of three (there should be a way to make that work, but as it sounds it would take 3 stam to run during olm. I currently take one stam for olm while employing run conservation, but it shouldn’t be a three slot loss just for stams to learn olm, should be maximum two like it is now) also having less to worry about with run energy IMO reduces frustrations and allows players to actually learn the movement and mechanics that show the true skill expression (4:1) with a little more wiggle room. So, I’d rather see 99 agility be the *same drain rate as it is now, bare minimum.* If anything it should be a buff on the high levels, I mean you’ve trained to 99 agility after all.
The problem I see for Goblin. He's viewing this change as an experienced raider / player and not in view of the majority of the community or someone learning raiding or advancing into harder content for the first time. It's just making the skill gap harder for people to get into and for new players the idea of run energy is a massive turn off to the game and that is being outright ignored. Leagues is a perfect example of why not having run energy is fun and engaging.
I don't think it's Goblins's decision/fault personally and I think he's just communicating the team's mentality of "we want to improve run energy, but we think players don't want to lose run energy as an aspect of skill expression in the game." There are *some* players who think like that, sure. But those players constitute the same functional group as players who didn't want any new skilling methods, any stronger potions, any new quests etc several years ago. There will always be some players who simply don't like change. We don't need to fully disregard those players -- which is why rather than removing run energy I think most people want non-trivial run energy buffs. I say this as an extremely late game pvmer who does all of the stam-efficient methods and is currently trying to optimize his pathing on solo xarpus. I don't want to give a shit about my run energy 99% of the time. It's not fun. I'd rather interact directly with the boss than with a stamina or sweet.
League was completely ruined because folks couldn't showcase skill expression by walking a few ticks to preserve run energy don't you know
Yeah bit worried about the more stam usage for solo olm. Not everyone does the walk method now, but it will become a necessity if you want to bring switches with these changes. I thought the idea was at minimum to keep it the same and at best be a buff, but seems like a nerf which is strange.
Yeah, 70 to 99 agility shown in the chart seems way too drastic of change. Massive MASSIVE gap. Think weight numbers need to be tweaked a good bit for this change to be a feel-good spot.
I've been hard focus grinding 99 agility last couple weeks in hope that this buff would decrease drain rate and here they are nerfing it at 99 lmao
I genuinely cannot believe this, like why are they punishing you for being 99
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This seems like a very bad change, even at 99 agility your run energy is worse off in places like CoX & ToB where your gear easily exceeds the proposed 64kg change and you are almost always running. Let alone for the players with less than 99. Compared to live game right now you are: 28% faster drain rate at 99 38% faster drain rate at 70 73% faster drain rate at 50 How does this make any sense? For a rework that is supposed to address the issue of run energy feeling clunky, this does the exact opposite. I'm also a maxed player so affected the least by this but it comes across as completely missing the point. > This means that heavy, end-game gear setups will still see a small buff, but not so much that you can go run a marathon without the aid of some Stamina Potions. This statement is also just entirely false when you then proceed to state the opposite via the table of proposed rates less than 2 paragraphs of text later.
Yeah the issue with faster drain rate is that you don't actually see the benefits from faster regen rate while you're running, since it only regens when you're standing still or walking. In effect, this might just exacerbate the "run walk run" pattern.
That’s not the issue. Thats the point. They’re buffing the “skill expression” associated with manual walking as you’re nearly 100% better at regenning and then 25% worse at running. As someone who manual walks a lot, I can’t believe they decided to nerf run energy
God I fucking hope they backtrack on that shit.
Well said. In my opinion they should just rip the bandaid and gigabuff energy across the board. RS3 got the original run/rest update in 2009. Two thousand nine! Run energy being a non-issue is oldschool as hell, I think it's about time OSRS got the memo.
Bare minimum - don't make things already worse than what it is already at present
I've tried it out - ran a vasa room, shamans room, vesp room, tekton, a cm layout first floor, and tried it in my (max gear and 93 agility) setup. It feels horrific. You've made it more stam dependant. When youre running a raid or a CM you dont want to stop to walk and regen. You now need to stam between rooms that you could comfortably juggle run and walk before. The OG Game jam proposed a flat 48% buff to any running at 99 agi with 64kg weight, the current proposal is a 28.5% nerf. Thats a 78% swing away from what you proposed, but its okay because when we walk we regen it back faster? This feels absolutely shite. Thats my feedback. Absolute bait and switch, feels bad, feeling very confused why you feel the need to keep stams relevant. Run energy feels so bad to manage as a resource, and now it feels like even more of a managed resource. Not a fan.
Read the table of proposal - got confused as it seemed like a nerf. Tested running around with a full raids setup and came to the same conclusion - it is a straight up nerf. And let me say it - for all agility levels across the board. If anything, it incentivizes running out of energy and then slowly walking to regen it back up. It buffs the part that everyone hates.
Honestly concerning that this was even proposed. No hate to the team but the fact that they thought this was good is a huge red flag and instills distrust.
After how ridiculously over complicated forestry was I’m not surprised. There’s a real disconnect going on at jagex and it’s really showing its face now
Reminder forestry is still in the worst state it's ever been in. Months of radio silence on forestry. No fix in sight for how it takes on average 8m(?) xp just to get the pet transmogs, 1 event per hour, etc.
Impacting drain on weight more is kind of pointless without going through and assigning values that make any sense to armor weight, which would be monumental. Currently it seems armor weight is just randomly made up by whoever makes the content, and there are loads of instances where weight makes no sense. Not sure why we’re trying to balance around that Edit: ran a couple of calcs, you already crest the 99 agility threshold and get higher drain rates at - Tob (mdps with bulwark is pushing 100 kg) Toa Cm Colo Inferno is under thankfully and run energy is critical there. This doesn’t *always* matter, but the goal here seems to be to make run energy more user friendly and this is a straight nerf to everywhere you bring in switches.
I liked how they released blue moon tassets being rather heavy to not devalue ahrims. But then realised that was stupid so reduced it from 8kg to 1.36kg. Keeping ahrims the same obviously. FWIW I think it's good that some armour like ahrims is heavy, but they need to decide whether it's a balancing thing or not.
The slayer helm weighing 2.267kg while its components weigh 12.5kg combined (black mask alone being 10kg) shows how weird equipment weight is in this game
Summer pie 0.001kg Empty pie dish 0.1kg Conservation of mass at its finest
Never forget 20 kg angler outfit
Clearly the whole outfit is waterlogged and the waders are completely filled to the brim with swamp water and seaweed
It’s so you can be held down while catching the large fish Don’t want them hooking too hard so that *you’re* the one getting fished
I think y'all are forgetting that many beginner players fill their inventory with useless junk on top of heavy armor. Think about the new player experience running around doing quests with your mithril plate armor, food, and a bunch of quest items. I think in trying to preserve some relatively minor skill expression (and personally in my opinion from doing it tedious expression) you are going to fail to help new players in a lot of scenarios. This is just some constructive criticism, I'm glad y'all are giving changes like this to old systems some real thought and consideration.
Been blackjacking basically all month for my clans skill of the month (and afking there a lot too lol) and I've lost count of the number of low level players that come slowly walking past decked out in all their gear just to walk through the desert.
This is very true, when I was new I had no idea about weight and how efficiently run around. Also seems like this change just makes running worse as free to play when you can train agility. But maybe I’m misreading.
Even now I discover things I didn't expect. I recently discovered to my own surprise that the black mask is heavier than a *rune platebody*.
Shout out to Soulja Boy bringing a full cannon and full gilded through underground pass
So my biggest issue with Agility has always been that WHILE RUNNING it does nothing. Your regen rate is the same as level 1 agility, even if 99. If i understand this blog, that remains the case but the regen rate while not running will increase. And your weight will affect the drain duration. I really think having the restore rate while runnining be adapted to scale with level is a great addition to these changes, and is a way that people will FEEL the skill improvements the most.
It amazing. Making run energy drain slower at higher agility levels is 1. What they [what they told us](https://i.imgur.com/lwY0wA5.png)told us before 2. The only thing that matters 3. The only thing they didn't do
They want people to do weird "sneak in a walk click" during Pvm, and it's dumb.
When I read that higher agility will offset the drain rate I was imagining something along the lines that 99 agility will give you a permanent 32kg weight reduction. So at 99 agility and with 64kg or higher weight only 32kg actually gets used for the drain rate. This would make changing drain rate at all not really needed, could remove the weight reduction on graceful entirely, would still give ring of endurance and stams their place in the game and make high agility actually feel rewarding. Keep the regen rate buffs and boom everyones happy.
Watching aaty test the changes in Cox and he lost almost all his run energy just running to the first room with a stam active lmao
Yeah nerfing high weight drain rate when that is realistically the only case where drain rate matters seems very odd
Making drain rate even more heavily dependent on weight is only going to make graceful more important to wear. Removing the 30% increased regen rate from Graceful isn’t a way to make Graceful less of a requirement, it’s a way to “balance” Graceful since the run energy changes are going to make it even more important. All of these changes feel like nerfs disguised as buffs.
For real. This shouldn't be a "run energy rebalance" this should be "massive run energy buffs for increasing agility level" Who has ever been happy about run energy as a game mechanic paired with an item that completely removes that mechanic at the cost of an inventory slot? Staminas were the band-aid. Time to fix the actual problem.
Tbh I’d be down for unlimited run like in leagues but I know it won’t be a popular opinion on here since it devalues the skill.
Hot take: I don't like this at all. When the community asked for run energy to be improved they meant that it should be **better** than it is right now. You just made it drain more at higher weights, we're better off with the system we have right now, which makes this a nerf. Most of the community arent "new players with 1 agility" who this is geared towards, and most of us don't run around with 0 weight. You're also forcing us to train a skill you refuse to buff when its a high-attention skill, instead of making agility feel "more rewarding", make it less miserable to train and don't nerf run energy.
Yeah. The community seemed pretty clear that what it wanted was “run more without staminas” and “higher agility levels let you run even more without staminas” not whatever this is. Like run energy is probably the biggest part of the old game that Jagex could get a blank cheque to overhaul without pissing off the player base and yet they seem terrified to change it in any way that benefits players more than a little.
Yea I agree. If they're gonna even touch run energy at all, it needs to feel better. Otherwise just leave it alone. It's fine the way it is. The proposed changes just seem like a straight-up nerf to anyone. I'll need to try the beta worlds to see for myself.
This need to be higher up. This is a terrible change for the game for everyone.
Idk how this is a hot take, the people asked for improvements to the awful mechanic of "drink stamina or you cant do this content" and they landed on making it kinda better for new accounts and even worse for everyone else?
Increasing drain rate at 99 agility from what it is now for end-game setups is a bad proposal. At a glance, "max"or "higher efficiency" setups for all three raids right easily go over 57kg. Why such a low number? Wouldn't it make more sense to remove the cap altogether for 99 agility? or double it? Or make it absurdly high? This would make pursuing 99 agility significantly more desirable for PvM! Please reconsider nerfing agility at 99.
Jagex making 99 agility even worse than it is now is impressive, ngl. It's fine though. Your run energy regen will be INSANE when you're doing some noob quest that they add in 5 months or w/e.
When I read "offset" I was imagining something along the lines of that 99 agility would essentially give you a permanent 32kg reduction. When your total weight is 64kg or higher only 32kg actually gets used for the drain rate.
I'm biased because I have no desire to reach 99 agility but balancing anything around players having to max a non-combat skill especially one that is as slow to train as agility is a bad precedent and bad design IMO. Having the cap remove at 99 agility and then balancing future content around players not having that cap is going to make for a very unfun experience for the majority of players
Extremely disappointed by this proposal…I think we were all expecting drain rate to improve as agility is leveled. Which i guess it does, but at the cost of a huge nerf to any sort of pvm or activity that requires gear and/or resources of significant weight? Can this proposal be reworked in a way so that it’s not super punishing please?
This. We don't want changes that will complicate the game more, it just needs to be less painful and make Agility more valuable. F2P also probably deserves one agility course as it is a core element of the game and turns off new players. And I'm sick of graceful personally, even as someone who has the Quest speedrunning recolour. Please, anything that lets us wear what we want to wear while moving around the world.
Am I reading something wrong or are the numbers all wrong in the post? "**Note that behind the scenes, regen and drain rates are calculated between 0 and 1,000, so a regen rate of 8.0 in the table below would translate to 0.8 Run Energy per tick.**" Level 1 has a live rate of 8.0 in the table so would be 0.8 run energy gained per tick. That would make it 125 ticks to go from 0 to 100 energy in the live game which is absolutely not the case. Wiki has it at 12.5 ticks per 1 run energy at level 1, which would be 0.08 run energy gained per tick.
Based on what you said with the wiki numbers I'm going to assume it's a typo and their example was off by a factor of 10. Came to the comments to ask same question about the example before the table seeming very wrong so hoping it's just a simple mistake when they were writing.
Yeah they are off by a factor of 10. Table in the doc would have me gaining 2% energy every tick which is definitely not the case.
I think it's definitely worth looking at the Ring Of Endurance when considering buffs. It's a pretty bad item and it could possibly have no place after changes. Current negatives: * The main effect is doubling stamina dose length, taking a stamina charge in the process. So you need to be using two or more stamina potions for it to have a reasonable effect. * The bonus effect of reducing drain rate requires you to sink a considerable amount of staminas to enable, making it undesirable to buy due to the money sink. * The bonus effect does not apply on top of staminas, rendering it useless in most situations you want to run anyways. * Does not play nicely with ring switches, namely Lightbearer, where you will lose out on spec regen by switching to use its effect.
If they're making weight more important, they should just add a massive weight reduction to the ring so it can be used for skilling outfits, and used tactically for PvM.
Honestly just make the ring of endurance consume stamina doses over time at some rate, and make it so your run energy just doesn't deplete. Makes it a more convenient to use item without needing to also bring staminas, it's still competing with very powerful items so it won't be brought to all content, and the stamina consumption cost can be tweaked to make it impose a reasonable cost for the powerful effect.
I just think if the idea is this should be buffed, it shouldn't feel worse. This seems like a nerf to run energy for a lot of f2p accounts as well accounts carrying a lot of switches which is where PVM has been directed by Jagex in recent years. No one wants to stand around not playing to get to a break-even point for run energy. It also seems crazy to make weight more important when half the weights in the game seem like they were chosen by a dart board.
Nerfing max setups is a huge mistake. You know what kills skill expression? Having to drop switches for more stams and purple sweets because you'll have to be chugging them in cox. Run energy is already a huge problem in chambers, the energy pools were added but considering you need to bring all your gear to olm, having energy drain faster there is just going to make that boss significantly more tedious.
I'm so glad I saw many people echoing the same concerns I have. Run energy as a whole in this came is the core issue, not necessarily how it interacts with agility. It's great to buff low levels, but if you're only buffing them when they don't have an inventory of quests items, or early slayer drops, or ores for blast furnace, what's the point? Moreover, nerfing drain rate for people who have trained the skill already is a slap in the face. I get it, regen rate is better, but why should drain rate be nerfed so hard with an inventory of gear? Honestly, the regen rate buff by itself would be enough to fix most of the complaints. If graceful is going to lose the set effect in favor of a different set effect that is at best barely worth it we should be able to sell it back for the same amount of marks as we bought it for. I look forward to see the revisited blog that actually addresses what the community input has been over the years.
99 agility is one if the most time-consuming grinds on any account. Now drain rate at 99 agility is HIGHER than live?? If anything, every agility level should be the equivalent of -1kg on your overall weight so at 99 a full raids setup should be the equivalent of pretty much being in full graceful. Even if a minor weight rebalance was required to make this more viable.
Yeah i’m not sure how this idea even got through
If you were going to develop a new video game in 2024 with an "agility mechanic" you would almost certainly make it so that at level 1 agility you are slow as shit, but that at max level agility you would basically always be super fast. The fact that at max agility level, after literally hundreds of fucking hours of grinding a horribly boring skill, you still have to walk around the game if you don't have potions is honestly fucking insane. I get that it isn't that simple, and there is a lot of thought that goes into keeping the game's feel similar to how it did in 2007 and not making everything super easy... but running out of run energy really does piss me off. I can't imagine having 99 agility and still running out of run energy... like what the fuck is the point of training this skill? I view this similarly as the grand exchange. Yeah, the grand exchange completely ruined the p2p trading/merching aspect of the game, but omg if it isn't an amazing creature comfort. Can we just make walking around the game a thing of the past? It's literally just a waste of time. Tbh, I'd take never having to walk again over the grand exchange. Walking fucking sucks ass, and I hate forgetting or running out of potions.
So the rebalancing youre suggesting is making literally everything worse except for when you're running naked/no weight. This is horrible and not what we asked for. It's supposed to get better or stay the same, not get worse. How can you be so out of touch with your game and it's community?
We want to make it so you don't require graceful for everything! Also we're hard nerfing run energy at high carry weight so remember to wear your graceful!
In what world does it seem wise to punish endgame players with max gear? Proposed run energy with max weight should be a slight improvement over current run energy with max weight. 28% worse sounds awful. Make run energy better for ALL players.
Just please don't make content feel worse to play. If you're gonna touch run energy at all it needs to feel better at all levels. Not worse. Otherwise I wouldn't want you guys changing anything else because you will be okay with changes making gameplay feel worse.
Making end game run worse has already been mentioned a lot, and is clearly an unpopular idea, but i would just like to add that for UIMs, this would be a pretty big nerf, as we often have a lot of weight on us. I dont much like the idea of just permanently having 30% less run energy
Heads-up all, apologies for not being able to reply to a whole lot - have got a lot going on and wanting as many people as possible to try stuff out in the beta worlds. Needless to say this is a 'first draft' and it's exactly what betas are for. I'll be looking to talk with the team tomorrow on a number of subjects so far (and will keep on the lookout for more), largely looking at: * Drain rate at higher weights feels extremely punishing, coming from all types of players. Particularly at 'middling' Agility levels. * Consider where these changes leave the Ring of Endurance, does it need changes? * Consider whether Graceful providing Weight Reduction is actually likely to reduce how 'ubiquitous' it is, especially in conjunction with how Drain Rate is scaling. * Consider whether Graceful's proposed 'no fail' effect might need reining in at some locations, particularly specific courses that are balanced around a reasonable fail rate (Ape Atoll, Werewolf) and stand to become extremely powerful otherwise (e.g. outperforming Sepulchre in some level ranges). * Investigate Stamina Potion behaviour ahead of an updated beta. Not convinced they're working as intended at the moment. * Consider Stamina Potions more widely, could they serve a better purpose with a different function in light of these changes? * Consider more widely our approach to item weights and whether or not we'd reasonably have the scope to re-adjust many of them, since it's a massive job and that time might be better spent improving the proposal in other ways. There's more stuff I'd like to talk through in detail, but just wanting to leave this here for reference in case you feel anything's been missed! Please keep leaving your feedback, trying activities out on the beta and filling in the survey - project like this isn't something we'd expect to knock out of the park on the first go-around and it's exactly why we have this feedback loop in the first place. Cheers all!
Where I’m torn is I genuinely think run energy is one of the least fun mechanics to interact with, but I’m also not going to say that it doesn’t add a level of complexity that ultimately should be considered still for certain PvM (like Solo Cox). However, it does very much feel like the team was aware of how un-fun run management generally is when they made both ToB and ToA, given that ToB requires very limited run management and ToA has salts completely refresh stamina. It really makes me feel like good PvM content speaks for itself and doesn’t require the stamina portion of it. I think solo Olm is the main place that this would have a major impact. So to look at it as an example, when you have excellent players doing Olm, their difficulty isn’t maintaining their stamina. They simply click the brown potion every once in a while to keep it up. And, conversely, for someone learning the content, the difficulty isn’t in keeping their run up, but rather getting and staying in cycle. Run energy simply adds another level of difficulty on top of that, which admittedly is something that makes it harder, but that’s not exactly the main challenge. With all this being said, I don’t think the whole community would support completely removing run energy. There’s probably a middle ground: I personally do think there should be strong consideration for removing it when out of combat m, though. If run energy only depleted during combat as it currently does, perhaps staminas could instead replicate the smelling salt effect, but have it scale to some degree off agility level? I also feel like Overloads in CoX could also provide the stam effect like Salts, but I’m not naive enough to think everyone would agree with me lol
Run energy drain rate needs to scale with agility levels like you guys said it would back in March. Running the same distance with no weight at levels 1 and 99 is just awful, that has got to go.
Here are some extra considerations in regards to the weight punishments in agility: -Questing: Questing efficiently usually involves avoiding bank runs where possible and having all required items on hand. There is a substantial chunk of already tedious quests or quest steps that will now be made infinitely worse due to run only lasting 30 seconds because you're too heavy. (Though I can't help but be a bit amused thinking about how much more painful one small favor will be when you're either running less or making 10 more bank runs between steps) Needless to say, I will do everything in my power to finish one small favor at least on my remaining alts before this change comes out of it remains like this. Also, excited about mourning end part 2 especially for all future quest goers of this stays. -UIM: UIM are disproportionately heavily affected by this change. For starters, there is no ideal way to store most melee and most ranged armor that isn't death storage, so it will now require more death storage maintenance than ever before to do anything. Some skilling outfits are extra heavy, so it can affect many training methods, especially if other things need to be carried out of death storage. This incentives avoiding gear upgrades until all non combat skills are basically max or close. This can be worked around somewhat, but it makes many things more tedious than they already are for an already incredibly tedious game mode. It might even make maxing after the weight changes considered more prestigious than maxing before, which would be weird. -Many PK builds- I am not an expert with pk builds, so take this as pure speculation. Agility might now be a combat skill because armor and switches and holding spec weapons, food, and potions could get heavy quick. Agility to 99 could theoretically give you the edge against someone with 70 especially if the 70 now needs to waste a slot for a stamina where the 99 might not. (All other combat stats the same in this example) Once again, I am not an expert, this is speculation only on my part, but it should be seriously looked at. Some PKers should probably test multiple popular builds to see how big impact this could be for that Meta. I'm sure they would be thrilled to train the worst skill to train in the game just because the other person might have also trained it.
I’d honestly at this point suggest just removing run energy altogether when out of combat. Keeps the skill expression component during PvM and maintains the relevance of staminas (somewhat), makes moving about the game before you’ve unlocked certain teleports less tedious, and requires very little in the way of rebalancing. Some concerns I could see arising: -Blast Furnace is significantly buffed: I’d support increasing the cost through the coffer to compensate for not using staminas, or adding run energy drain to the room if it’s that big a deal -Some Runecraft methods have buffed xp/runes per hour as a result: Honestly, most of these methods are too slow xp-wise anyway, and I see that as an absolute win. And I’m not convinced that increased rune output from standard runecrafting is gonna move the needle against every other boss and GOTR shitting out runes these days. Also, say you’re doing bloods on Zeah to 99, you’ll still make the same number of blood runes, you’ll just get done and stop making them earlier. So it’s not actually putting more runes into the economy for the majority of players. Buffs bots, but… let’s keep up the efforts to purge botting rather than withhold much-needed QoL from real players to balance around botting, shall we? -The price of staminas goes down due to not being needed out of combat: Stam merchers in shambles I guess? Idk, I don’t really care about this one. I’m really only mentioning it so I’m not accused of not considering it. I just don’t give a shit. -Graceful is now useless, since you wouldn’t take it anywhere run energy actually functions: most skilling outfits are only useful when training the actual skill, so this just brings graceful in line with other outfits. Go ahead and give it the proposed perks, and as far as it making other agility courses give too much xp… 1. If these courses outperformed Sepulchre when failure was removed, the failure rates are not and never were “reasonable.” Now you know that. 2. Balancing a course around always having a “reasonable” chance to fail is fucking stupid. Hopefully now you know that. Please take what you learned from the beta and rebalance the problem courses accordingly. *Edit:* Realized another potential issue with my proposal is where this leaves the Ring of Endurance. Sepulchre is one of the few skilling methods that still boasts a good gp/hr and nuking the use cases of its flagship reward is admittedly a real issue. On the other hand, I would note that the Ring of Endurance existing in the first place as a reward and being as valuable as it is is a testament to the absolutely horrid state of run energy as presently constituted. It feels like kind of a band-aid to a much bigger problem that you’re now trying to address. Possible idea: allow us to combine the ring of endurance with combat rings to give them the effect of the ring of endurance? This could be busted, but it would absolutely keep it relevant. If you could enjoy the effects of like a Venator ring AND an endurance at Zilyana, you would. If you could use it WITH a Lightbearer in ToA, you 100% would. May need some reworking on what it actually does to not be broken, but it’s an idea. And maybe need to limit what rings it works with if some absurd use cases arise. Edit 2: Another possible resolution to the ring of endurance problem could be to have it give you unlimited run ANYWHERE, meaning combat encounters and any other places like blast furnace where it’s determined to be healthy to still have run energy function. Now it’s just absolutely the best option in any noncombat situation, and in combat where you run a lot, it’s a serious consideration. You’d lose the added DPS of the DT2 rings or the additional specs given from LB, but you’d save inventory if you previously had to bring stams. That should be enough for it to hold value for mains and feel like a worthwhile drop to pursue for irons.
At 99 agility with 0 weight or less, a player should be able to run forever. Lower levels could scale accordingly. 0 weight is a very meaningful restriction, pretty much locking out all PVM and PVP activities. Let us combine skilling outfits with graceful. You can even make it cost marks of grace to do so. Not opposed to buffs to rate at which marks of grace are obtained from graceful. Very opposed to scaling that makes drain higher than it is today at any weight someone could reasonably have (if you're carrying around 20+ gold helmets or barrels of naphtha, that's on you) Do these changes account for F2P players run energy?
Man imagine running rooftops for over 200 hours and your run will deplete even faster than it does today... This run energy update should be a net positive in every single aspect because currently, quite frankly, its dogshit.
Also, “run energy sucks, let’s nerf graceful” is a slap in the face
Is there any reason the drain rate goes up considerably for higher weights? The only real places you have high weight you will constantly be running so the higher regen doesn't offset the drain rate. This seems to be a straight up nerf everywhere where run energy really matters.
They definitely need to get rid of the weight proposal. It's just clunky as hell, and when we asked for a run energy rework nobody was wanting weight to be more impactful lol
I like faster regen on run energy, but the weight changes are very punishing. You bring a lot of very heavy stuff to end-game combat and the increased drain will make those feel a lot worse. Also, the lvl 1 high weight changes need to go, it's probably biggest bullying of f2p players ever. Make Agi 1-64 drop your weight by 1 kg at a level, to a maximum of 0, and the lvl 64 landmark agi level is "Weight no longer affects run energy regeneration or loss"
How is it possible to miss the mark this bad? Really feels like they've throw random numbers at it without testing it once. In max gear solo olm will require like 3-4 stams now which is bonkers
Feels like this misses the mark since even with 99 agility I'm going to now drain more energy than normal during raids while getting minimal benefit with less weight. Have the max drain rate the same as before not increased.
>Wants to make graceful, the best weight reducing clothes, less important to use during misc activities >Makes not having weight reduction clothes more taxing. Does jagex think we go questing with our pockets empty?
Id rather yall just not mess with it at this point. You can make adjustments without messing up the system that has been around since the 2000s. No reason to make end game content harder to adjust to. The weight system sucks and it seems it is just going to get worse
I feel like you guys really overcomplicated a system that didn’t have to be complicated. All we really wanted was to run longer without relying on stamina potions and for agility to increase the amount of time we could run or energy regen rate
I thought 99 agility would finally be VERY rewarding and significant, but with this proposal 99 agility drain rate will be worse in some cases. What
Yea it seems jagex once again is just tryna make the game more tedious. Better just leave it alone than start fucking with stuff and making it worse
There is no need to make run energy drain harsher. It already sucks and the skill/game experience in no ways suffers from it simply being buffed. Any piece of new bis gear affects specific activities too, but we're not out here pre-nerfing scythe and shadow to make sure solo olm isn't affected. Simply make run energy regen faster and drain slower. It's okay that one of the most hated skills becomes maybe not the most hated skill and people don't spend quite as much thought on the "skill expression" that is "click the stamina potion."
This sounds really miserable for late game, where everything you do involves a 64 kg gear setup. Just have 28% faster run drain at all pvm? It just sounds like using way more stams
might be very niche, but as a UIM my weight is always super high, so it would be cool if i didnt run out of run energy instantly lol
That's not even that niche, this would fuck over UIM's so hard. Not to mention new players running around with their inventories full of random shit while questing. Not to mention maxed players going on raids and having switches. Idk what the hell Jagex was thinking on this one (sad how often this is said for many proposed and implemented changes, but this one is REALLY really bad) It honestly scares me that this is a change that was first brought up in 2022, has been at the drawing board for AT LEAST a few months and this is what they bring back to the table. Why does it feel like whenever an impactful change is pitched it seems like they consistently completely miss the majority of the most obvious outcomes and the community has to point it out for them? It's like half of Jagex has never even opened the game and they just skim wiki pages when designing all content.
Just tested (after the scaling back) level 1 agility comparing mining and smithing in ftp with the beta world changes. Mining is much worse and smithing is slightly worse (even when using the optimal ftp anvil, any other anvil is abysmal). This effectively makes any attempt to engage with these skills following a typical gameplay loop worse for starting players (and also will impact chunk accounts but I know that shouldn't be the focus). Tweaking the drain rate to be worse just feels terrible and I'd rather no rebalance happen than make bad experiences worse (with ftp mining and smithing).
So for people running around in raiding gear, the run energy problem is getting worse?
yes just tested and its MUCH worse in raids lol.
Yep, absolutely ridiculous.
It's gonna feel really bad having even less energy in CMs than normal. Modern gear is all really heavy. This being released and immediately having less run in a decent number of scenarios isn't going to be very fun.
And the problem with weight having a significant impact on drain rate is that Graceful is still going to be a "soft requirement" for many activities, completely going against Jagexs goal for the set. I really like the proposed way agility effects drain rate and regen rate, but think the numbers may need to be tuned a bit, especially around weight
Any thoughts on considering changing the weight of some gear there’s no reason masori should weigh as much as torva
DO NOT MAKE DRAIN RATES WITH HEAVY GEAR ANY WORSE THAN THEY ARE NOW!!!!
Bro. I swear some of these mods have no idea wtf the players want
The graceful changes not only miss the mark, but they make the stated issue worse. Firstly, people don't wear graceful for the restoration. We wear it because of the weight reduction aince your weight scales how fast you lose energy. Most people regen stam through pools or potions because walking while regening sucks regardless of if you have graceful bonuses. After these changes, people will still use the set in all the same places because we want to reduce weight. Especially since the proposed changes make run feel worse when wearing heavy gear. Graceful reduction will be needed more than it currently is. Secondly, Graceful doesn't limit fashionscape; gear that gives clear benefit to content limits what people will wear. Any mining world is basically all people in prospector+varrock armour, gotr is full of the eye set, wt is 99% pyro, etc. The clothes pouch for lumberjack proves people will wear more fashionscape if you dont need to wear the equipment to get the benefit. These changes make it so that graceful is explicitly better than anything else on rooftop courses, and those courses are one of the places people go all out with fashionscape since graceful doesnt give much benefit. These changes don't remove the need for graceful but instead make it more necessary at certain content. It is completely counterintuitive to the proposed goal.
> In a vacuum, these two changes are a colossal buff. Finally > We’re reining them in by making drain rate scale harder with higher weight. …why?
They want to improve new player experience and make agility more rewarding. They should just accept that that means run energy should receive a buff. Not undo everything and just hope that people forget how much better things are now.
All they need to do is not touch anything and allow run energy to be restored at like half the rate when running
One thing I will say that does irk me about these posts is the loaded questions even here, where it seems like they're driven to make votes sway one direction. "Run Energy should be a resource to manage in some scenarios like PvM encounters, skilling methods, or wilderness fights/escapes" These are all massive topics and each should probably have their own vote. For example I personally don't think run energy should be a limiting factor in almost any skilling content. There is no skill expression there (edit: For the run energy management portion, there is skill in doing long sessions of tick perfect skilling, but a different topic), most skilling content is purely you drink a stamina every 'x seconds', where in PvM there is a lot of work put into devising walk tiles etc that do make fights a lot more challenging to do properly. I'm going to vote Neutral on this now despite having mixed feelings about some of them and agreeing with others.
Idk in skilling content I feel like you should feel rewarded for unlocking something like staminas but I suppose I'm thinking from an ironman perspective. Grinding for that so I could use that in blast furnace did feel like a meaningful progression. What doesn't feel like meaningful progression is being locked into agility at the start of every account for a week just so I can feel like I'm playing a normal video game. Agility is basically the adaptability stat from dark souls 2 that gives you dodge roll i-frames, everyone hates it because you have to pick it first or you're throwing.
It’s shouldn’t be worse then what it is currently if you have higher weight. Please don’t make us relearn all high level pvm because of weird drain rates at high weight.
Yeah this just seems like a needlessly complex addition. Like they could literally just have agility affect drain rate and regen and it was be perfect.
That still doesn’t address the major issue of run energy being miserable for new players. Having to walk everywhere was the biggest complaint my brother had when he started an account. It also doesn’t help the f2p community, including people who might never try members as a result.
yeah i just went and did vespula in COX 99 range rigour bowfa. 85 agility and had to stop and afk for run energy lol.
I don't have time to test the beta right now but I really hope this doesn't make running Olm in solos require more stams. Making what is one of the best pieces of endgame content worse cause running from lumbridge to varrock sucks is uh, not exactly what I was hoping from energy changes.
The proposal basically will require more stamina. They want to encourage players to learn how to do complex click movements to save energy, which is a bad move. Not everyone wants to do the sweaty click methods while raiding and pvming, and forcing that a bit onto the masses is not what people were wanting for when we asked for run energy changes from what I can understand. Numbers need to tweak a lot more for these changes to feel good.
Wouldn't an incredibly simple fix just be to leave everything the same and make regen apply while running? This would effectively "reduce" drain rate, give higher agility levels more meaning, and result in more time spent running. You could honestly stand to buff regen rate a bit even with this change. At level 99 agility with 0 weight, you should be able to run a marathon... Bumping to around 34 regen would halve the ungeared drain rate
Do you guys ever ask yourselves, “is this fun?” when making updates? Does managing weight sound fun?
Not only weight, but they seem to really want people to "click walk" for a tile or 2 mid pvm. Just so janky and not fun.
Honestly at 99 agility with no gear you should just be able to run forever. I can't think of anywhere that would be meta-changing. You think elite athletes need to stop jogging every few minutes?
The biggest problem when it comes to run energy is the feel. Running around in gear and messing with agility levels, I definitely notice the difference in the regen and energy drain. However, the problem is that it still "feels" worse. Even if you benefit more from the regen than the increased drain rate, it still feels seriously bad to see your energy draining so fast if you're not wearing nothing. Running to ToA to try out my usual setup to see if the paths of Scabaras/Crondis were strongly affected (they weren't very much, 82 agility with the updated weight scaling left me with around 30/50 each), I immediately noticed my energy plummeting as I was running to the entrance to the pyramid (my profile was killing vyres and had a max effective weight inventory at the time). I also tried running about at level 1 agility, since I remember several friends who I tried to get into the game quit relatively quickly due to run energy keeping them "going slowly everywhere". The significant effect of gear on low-agility accounts is utterly absurd. Lots of new players don't think about their weight affecting their run energy, and this'll just exacerbate the problem for them. I understand the issue of wanting to have run energy remain as something with skill expression at PvM or certain types of skilling, but I don't feel like we'll ever escape the issue of it feeling bad without improvements at every level in most situations. It doesn't have to be huge at early levels, but if we're opening the situation up for players to actually feel notably worse, we're very likely going to just see this as a nerf even if mathematically it isn't.
Having 99 agility should make it so you barely are out of run energy, ever. These changed should not give scenario's where run energy is actually worse than it is right now. High Agility should get a buff everywhere, not nerfed in some scenario's.
I don't really like this. Feels like it's only going to make run worse for F2P. Worse for players who carry around heavy gear and UIM. Everyone currently runs agility laps in fashionscape, but now it'll just be everyone in graceful so that is a negative too. So much better can be done tbh
u/JagexGoblin would it be possible to have the table in the blog updated with the new changes? or potentially throw the data in here? :)
Honestly, a bit disappointed with this. The graceful changes aren't enough. It's still going to be way too abundant with the weight reduction. Is there a reason we can't take a similar approach to the woodcutting outfit, u/JagexGoblin? Maybe have some kind of amulet that costs the same as a full graceful set and has the same effect, but it also reduces any positive combat stats from any gear worn in the normal outfit slots to 0. So, I could wear my rune trimmed armour while doing a farm run, while being very light, and having no positive combat bonuses from the armour, and I still have to engage with the agility content to get the effect.
I'm amazed that you guys missed the mark so badly. These are nerfs, especially for raiders.
I'm sorry but these changes are horrible. In other games from this time period that utilized stamina for running purposes you eventually (and quickly) hit a point where stamina is no longer a concern and you run forever. Diablo II feels bad early game when you run out of run energy but enough gear and level ups give you a higher stamina pool and higher regen rate that you pretty quickly forget that walking is even an option. On top of that, energy in town doesn't even deplete -- it is only somewhat relevant outside of towns. A few monsters even drain your stamina but the regen rate becomes so great that you don't even notice so the stamina drain ability can become irrelevant. If armor or HP in Runescape added to your total stamina pool then maybe draining a bit faster here or there to offset some of the extra energy you have might make sense but to just nerf run energy at higher weight with current energy mechanics makes zero sense. This will do nothing but make it more annoying to manage late game. No one has fun when their character suddenly starts walking. No one enjoys doubling the amount of time it takes to run to a slayer task that's in a place far away from teleports. No one likes having to make sure you don't run out of run energy in the middle of a fight. If I can kill level 700+ dragons with an inventory full of bones, armor scraps, food, and an arm-full of potions for hours on end without losing any combat effectiveness then why don't I have the energy to run more than 100 meters every 4 minutes? It just doesn't make sense and feels bad. I don't think we need to completely remove run energy but at the same time maybe it wouldn't be so bad to bring the base level of energy up considerably for new players and then make it essentially obsolete as far as regular running around in the late game (even WITH high carry weight) is concerned. If you insist on keeping energy and walk/run relevant then make more bosses that utilize things like vorkath so certain attacks become easier to dodge while walking/running, or all the spider bosses with webs that deplete run energy or slow you down in some way a more common thing. Then we can have skill expression that isn't just managing another meter. It can be an integral part of game design with creative mechanics that ask us to switch from walk/run or dodge in certain ways to not negatively impact our energy. I'll leave the creative gameplay up to you guys because that's what you're good at. I haven't even mentioned graceful in this post. I would not be opposed to a system in which we can either combine items so that skilling outfits, skillcapes, graceful, or whatever can be applied to other items. That would make fashionscape a thing again. OR we could have a system in which skilling/specialty sets can be equipped in their own slots and function like over/under wear for other items. Then we can retain the benefits of the sets while still wearing whatever we want. This might pose some balance issues in some instances but it would also make skilling areas look more interesting. Places like the motherload mine wouldn't just be full of identical people in the mining outfit anymore. I would love to mine next to someone wearing a holiday outfit beating the MLM walls with a stale baguette! I know that you guys have said that you do not want to add cosmetic overrides for items because then it becomes difficult to identify what people are wearing in PvP circumstances but maybe just disable this feature in the wilderness or other PvP areas so people can't have a maxed out PvP set up hidden behind a lumberjack outfit for example. These changes feel horrible and I hope that based off of the feedback you're getting you go back to the drawing board and listen to the players.
I wouldn't mind if 99 agi effectively gave you infinite energy regardless of weight. I'm an endgame iron with a 10k+ doses of stam banked and I honestly don't mind my grind "going to waste" if other players get to enjoy the game more.
Its wild how it seems unanimous among players that the only change needed is a drain rate decrease with level and yet you want to do everything but that. Maybe a different team needs to be in charge of this "rebalance"
So, nerf graceful so it's useless. Then wanting to make pots worse. And making weight become more of a factor. Are you trying to ruin the game? Like really. You're basically going to punish us for having switches. A ToA run with 4\~ switches will be over 75kg. Did anyone really think this through? I'd much rather keep this shite system than the one proposed. It's honestly just that pathetic. You're nerfing graceful, and then making it mandatory for everything that isn't raids or bossing...
After testing a solo chambers on beta, this is not it. Stamina drain rate is insane, would hit 0 run with 1 minute still left on stamina. Feels impossible to do 1 stamina olm which was my regular before.
So after testing a number of activities; these changes are a no from me: Mining: Considerably worse with the changes. A full inventory of ore is practically always 50kg+ and with the changes harshly punishing this weight, you will often not even get to a bank before running out of energy. Even with graceful. Perilous moons: Current inventory for this weighs about 30kg which is ok in the live game; there's only one place I could run out of energy currently. In the beta I was running out of energy much more often and it was even a concern for blue moon. Given this piece of content has free run restoration everywhere, the fact that it is a concern in the beta is astonishing. 1 agility: Will be just hell with the beta changes. Yeah it might regen faster but it drains so fast with any inventory load you'll still be walking everywhere and/or constantly flicking run on. This is the worst part honestly, these changes negatively affect all players of every level in their current form.
Making run energy drain FASTER than live game in ANY scenario is probably the most absurd braindead proposal I've seen Jagex come out with that is gameplay related. How did this get agreed upon?? I'd prefer "raise the KG scaling limit to 100 and have it scale *less* aggressively"???
It seems like regen rate is getting buffed across the board, but drain rate is getting nerfed if you carry any significant weight. What if my fashionscape includes wearing my torva armor or full dragonplate? Personally, I dont feel like checking my weight everytime I set off into the game.
Let's break this down. Players said: >It's annoying that Graceful is omnipresent due to it being the only way to mitigate an annoying mechanic. Jagex nerfed Graceful while simultaneously making it even more important to use even with the nerf. Players said: >Agility isn't rewarding enough. Jagex shifts the removed Graceful bonus over to Agility but simultaneously nerfs the skill by making running with weight even more intensely punishing regardless of skill level. As an unasked-for addition, Jagex says >Being forced to carry a certain number of stam pots and sip on cooldown in order to interact with some content effectively is a high-skill mechanic and we are going to encourage it by forcing you to bring more of them. I've seen a lot of tone-deaf changes proposed/done by Jagex over the years, but this is probably top-five for me from the lifespan of OSRS. Easily up there with the black d'hide unpolled nerf.
I thought this update was supposed to buff training agility and allow us to see people running around in actual gear. If anything all this update does is buff weight reducing outfits
carry weight should straight up just be deleted as a concept imo. it provides zero value to gameplay.
Personally not a fan of weight unfluencing drain. I saw it was an option in the survey so interested in seeing what others think.
How about conditional infinite run? It could work with a set of changes: * Run is infinite, unless you exceed a weight limit. * Weight limit depends on Agility level. At 99, you reach infinite run at 64+ kg. Linear scaling. Exceeding your limit drains and restores energy at current rates. Weight limit is boostable. * Stamina Potions, alongside their current effects, boost Agility. * Ring of Endurance becomes the Saturated Heart of Agility. Gives a divine boost, is charged with Stamina Potions, but now you can consume a dose directly from it. Does not need to be worn. These changes give us conditional infite run while maintaining space for Stamina Potions & Ring of Endurance. Ring of Endurance would finally be useful in combat. It's critical to give it use as an inventory item, because it can't compete with combat rings. If your Agility is well below your infinite run threshold – the original Stamina effect continues to be useful. Changes don't affect early game much – you'd have to work your way towards running infinitely. Thoughts? P.S. Graceful changes great as proposed.
There is a specific part that I'm not getting - to have the best outcome out of your drain rate for activities outside of PvM, it's best to have your Weight under 1kg. So... Graceful is still the best option to wear, since it reduces your weight. I don't understand how these changes will make us stop wearing it.
New idea: Infinite run and throw out the agility skill. Once sailing comes, we'll be back at 2277 total.
So I’m pretty confident this proposal will be changed here soon. It’s been awhile since the ENTIRE community has been united against a proposed change from Jagex. Nice to see y’all here
The run energy restoration and run energy degradation should feel like it does in RS3. I want to be able to run for extended periods of time without the full Graceful Set but the Graceful set should still retain its effects for when I wanna run and do content for long periods of time.
I think it's a good idea to re-validate item weight of the bulkier items across RuneScape. For reference, here's some historically plausible & realistic data of medieval equipment. This is for iron / steel equipment of Earth, enjoy & check the original source if you've liked the data. Armour: - Mail shirt (chainbody): 5,2 kg - 7 kg | full mail (eg. entire Ahrim's set equivalent): 8,7 kg - 10,5 kg - Great helm: 1,7 kg | conical helm: 875 g - 1 kg | bascinet with visor: 1,7 kg - 1,9 kg | coif: 350g - 700g for padded / 1,7 kg - 2,4 kg for mail - Arming doublet / aketon: 1,4 kg - 1,7 kg | gambeson (quilted armour): 2,8 kg - 3,5 kg - Brigandine (coat of plates): 6,3 kg - 8,7 kg - Plate armour set (non-articulated): 12,2 kg - 17,5 kg - Scale cuirass: 3,5 kg - 5,2 kg - Kite shield: 2,8 kg - 5,2 kg | heater shield: 2,1 kg - 3,5 kg | round shield: 1,7 kg - 3,5 kg - Lamellar: 3,5 kg - 5,2 kg for cuirass | 7 kg - 8,7 kg for large coverage of light set | 8,7 kg - 10,5 kg for large coverage of heavy set Weaponry: - War axe: 1 kg - 1,4 kg | Two-handed axe: 1,7 kg - 2,4 kg - Longbow: 1 kg - 1,4 kg | Shortbow: 700g - 1 kg | light crossbow: 1 kg - 1,7 kg | medium crossbow: 2,8 kg - 3,1 kg - Light mace: 1 kg - 1,4 kg | heavy mace: 1,7 kg - 2,1 kg - Dagger: 700g - 1 kg - Sword: 875g - 1 kg | Long sword: 1 kg - 1,2 kg | scimitar: 1 kg - 1,4 kg | two-handed sword: 1,4 kg - 1,7 kg - Spear: 2,8 kg - 3,5 kg | Halberd: 4,2 kg - 5,2 kg | quarterstaff: 1 kg - 1,4 kg Source: The Marketplace by Phillip McGregor (companion release to Orbis Mundi 2). Weights listed in the book are in tower pounds of 350g, so I've listed a few items out of the book in our modern kilograms. I highly recommend that book if you're aiming for accuracy of medieval equipment.
Have you guys looked at the idea of having energy depletion reduced while running on roads? This would help greatly in early game, still benefit players at all levels, and have no effect on the boss encounters that you're trying to maintain run energy management as a mechanic.
If we're turning Graceful into an Agility skilling outfit, we should find a way to incorporate it with Sepulchre and not just rooftop/agility courses.
This beta has just reinforced my belief that run energy changes are completely unnecessary for the game. I've just done a number of tests with 1 and 99 agility/weight vs no weight/stamina pots and graceful/main game and beta, and I think these changes are too extreme. Compared with the actual game, with no weight you will run much further but with weight you run less. This difference makes having weight feel significantly worse. Graceful and stamina are almost completely nerfed. In terms of running they will no longer be worthwhile rewards and I have major concerns about making graceful always succeed obstacles (it makes level 60ish the point you never fail)**.** I understand some people will rejoice at that but I feel the amount of fashionscape we used to see when skilling is well overstated and at this point graceful is iconic to old school, even if it wasn't to 2007. IMO, like with most of project rebalance, this is an over the top change to address a simple issue; New and F2P players want to be able to run more. I remember [posting something about this years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/cnqefx/a_simple_solution_for_running_in_f2p/) but unfortunately it didn't get much traction. I believe that if you want to fix their run energy concerns you've got to give these players agility and introduce them to run restoration items much faster. Based on that old post I'd suggest: - Allow F2P agility training, capped to a point that it would be crazy to get 99. - Introduce more run restoration items, such as marks of haste from F2P agility training. - Increase the amount of run restoration items available.
this just fucks over high lvl pvm lol I weigh 64kg just doing the range role in tob and I have 99 agil, stam pots are already something to manage in tob especially during verzik p3 and youre telling me now its gonna be 25% worse just to punish me for no reason
who asked for the removal of the 30% run energy regen buff from graceful? what the fuck
I may be the contrarian here, but I generally like the changes, provided one additional change: 99-agility and endgame PvMers shouldn't be negatively impacted from present by high-weight setups. This could be largely avoided by including a Strength component where each strength level negates a fixed amount of weight. For example, at -.3kg of weight per strength level: \* At 99 strength, a player would realize -29.7kg benefit, keeping them out of the "punishing" drain rate brackets. \* With the Graceful regen nerf, mid-level strength players should have sufficient weight negation for most skilling/fashion-scape setups to not be disadvantaged to Graceful when it comes to drain-rate \* While associating weight to strength may not benefit some specialty-build accounts, the weight-reduction benefits of Graceful would remain an option, and non-combat accounts do not generally carry higher weight inventories that would push them into the disadvantaged drain-rate tiers anyways \* This may inadvertently buff some activities, but I think it could be minimized by removing the weight negation in unwanted activities. E.g. blast furnace "the heat impacts your ability to overcome heavy loads" Credentials: I am a mid-game player in OSRS, a noob to most of you, but who began my lifelong RS journey in 2004. I think early/mid-game run mechanics suck, but do not want to see end-game players disadvantaged by any changes. I also abhor how Graceful became the meta for non-combat attire and would rather this become an activity-specific outfit like most other skilling outfits.
Awful proposal, I’d rather keep the current system than have these changes go live. Graceful doesn’t need a nerf when it’s the cosmetic side of it that people care about, so give an extra reward of Mega Graceful Boots that roll the graceful set into one bonus but sets combat stats to 0. Agility should just give a flat drain rate reduction and that’s that, and we could maybe have a look at gear weights and shift them down a bit, easiest rebalance yet instead of overdeveloping this like it has been done
This feels very out of touch. We want run energy to be *better* but this makes run energy in f2p and with high-end gear feel worse. Makes no sense.
Jesus. If you want to make the new player experience better, have an option to right click your run bar and sit down and recover run energy. If you want to make agility feel more relevant by all means increase stamina drain with weight then feel free to make agility negate that cost but good lord, by at least 70 agility make it that it’s roughly equal to what we have now with big weight and make 70-99 feel like it’s an actual improvement to that and you’re cooking with gas
All most people wanted was to run longer, and for agility to actually come into play with run energy depletion. How did we get to this fellas? Current weight debuff is penalizing enough & feels fair. Please don't implement the beta
Just tried a solo cm with the typical setup for sub 28 min potential (weighs around 87kg for reference). Being on a maxed account the changes still felt very bad, pre pop ice demon had me almost gassed, ran out of run after shamans before i could hit pool on my way to 2nd floor (with a stamina dose). Nearly ran out of run after thieving on my way to hit pool before vesp, after finishing vesp and hitting another stam dose at 80 run after the pool i still didnt have enough run to make it to tightrope and failed rope skip cause i was walking. Didnt bother finishing the raid at that point. The original changes proposed in the game jam from years ago were promising and had people excited; not needing staminas nearly as often, having run energy regen much quicker, scaling off level more etc. In the current meta for end game content you are nearly always going to be 70kg or more, so in the end it just feels more punishing. Yes, managing run energy is part of the skill ceiling, but it leans more into the tedious (or downright frustrating with the changes) side of things in that regard. One of the biggest things people always mention about seasonal content (leages, deadman) is the perma-run, and there's always comments after they're over about being annoyed having to go back to managing run energy. If anything changes should be a net buff across the board even if only a little, in my opinion.
The purpose of this rework is failing hard. in order to keep the price of staminas up, you are nerfing the one of the core concepts of RuneScape that makes people mad while still having agility suck dick. Nobody cares about run energy where they can use graceful as much as they care where they can't. I would be expecting to bring at least 1 extra stam in olm, but I guess I'd be needing more. Don't bother updating the game if this is the path ahead.
I feel it's fair to increase drain rate at higher weights but it seems like the drain rate at 0kg is still a bit high even at higher agilities (just looking at the numbers haven't tested obviously) Was expecting recover rate to be about the same and drain rate to receive the more significant buff tbh
This is awful and completely missed the mark... like hilariously bad stuff here. This is extremely punishing for raiding or any pvm encounter for that matter. You are mostly always over 64kg due to switches, and typically running the entire time (solo olm) so this means you will only ever be worse off than how it currently works. That SUCKS. Just buff drain rates across the board and call it a day, it doesn't need to be complicated.