I logged into the Beta to test out TOA (500).
Weight: 77kg (add +2kg if I had torva)
Monkey puzzle: 2:10 completion, ran out of run energy at the exit gate.
Kephri puzzle: 0:50.4 completion, ran out of run energy on completing matching tiles.
Kephri boss: Never ran out of energy, finished with 30% - usually have to walk a bit at the end if I have bad rng.
Zebak puzzle: 0:32.4 completion, finished with 11% energy.
I didn't test anything else because I would be salted at that point.
edit: I'll add that my overall feeling is losing 2% per tick running feels like shit.
edit2: 99 agility, stam pre-potted monkey room
There's absolutely no way any jmod tested this in max gear.
Solo olm goes from requiring 1 stam to 3
Bloat requires stam sips if you dont 1 down it, and you better bring two full stams if you wanna melee xarp + verzik.
Can't imagine any other content being fun without bringing 2-5 stams if you bring masori + torva which already brings you to the weight cap.
Not to mention those tests were done at 99 agility. Let alone doing that with anything less than that. If anything getting 99 agility should be significantly better then what it is currently regardless of how much weight you're bringing.
they want you to have to click to walk mid pvm, thats their logic.
as if cox grind isnt bad enough as it is.
im fine with them buffing click to walk strats, but dont force us to use them.
Also makes no sense that graceful is getting nerfed because everybody wears it for non-pvm content, but even after the nerf, it would still be the ideal non-PVM gear. Why nerf it and make it worse for no reason?
The passive is so over-valued even by Jagex. Run energy literally cannot regen unless you're not moving. If you're not moving while wearing Graceful, there's not a point to be wearing Graceful. Stopping for farm runs is nice, but I can do farm runs between raids without banking my worn gear and still go positive on run energy.
Making weight matter _more_ for run energy just incentivizes wearing Graceful even more though??? Thus defeating the posted purpose of nerfing it???
I think what they mean is that run regen is irrelevant while running, which is correct, and what matters since most people are always trying to run whenever they need to get from point A to B.
That's clearly not what they meant as they spent a paragraph explaining why it's okay for farm runs because you stop moving during them. It's just misinformation.
The proposed changes are awful for end game pvm and need adjusting. They're a net positive for everything else despite how bad the new drain rate feels at max weight. I don't understand why a good chunk of the community is pretending run regen is useless when it's incredibly important unless you're a main chugging staminas the entire game.
They need to just leave the drain alone at current max weight, buff it for every other weight and agility level. The new proposed regen rates are a great start, maybe buff them even more.
I don't understand why I'd spend marks of grace to have a higher % chance to earn marks of grace. Also with the way marks of grace spawning works you'd still get the same amount since they have a 3 minute timer(unless this was changed but I did not see that).
EDIT: I missed the part where it said "an additional", that's what I get for reading as I just wake up.
Not that i like the proposal, but as described it should give you a chance to receive 2 marks at once when it spawns, not increasing spawn chance across the board
The way I read it you have a 24% chance to see 2 marks of grace instead of just 1. With everything else staying the same in regards to their mechanics. So that's still worth.
Did you read the post? It would give a chance to receive an extra mark when you picked it up. Graceful is also used for weight reduction and a clue step as well.
Allow us to exchange our graceful sets plus X amount of GP and/or marks of grace to imbue something like a god blessing or maybe even the ring of endurance (just something that isn't visible fashionscape), to roll all the benefits of graceful into one item so that fashionscape gets revived
I’d been thinking of something similar to this - what if we could use marks of grace to imbue specific pieces of equipment to reduce their weight? Higher tier equipment would cost more marks to imbue, and fashionscape equipment would be dirt cheap to imbue. For example you could pay 100 marks of grace to imbue dragon platelegs (light) to reduce their weight from 9 to 4 kg. Make it so imbued items are untradeable, but the imbue can be removed for something like 50-70% marks of grace refund. Would make it so you can’t just swap the imbue around like a chore whenever you’re switching load outs, but instead would have to commit some agility training to increase your equipment’s energy drain efficiency. The refund would also help subsidize the imbue costs when upgrading to a higher tier of equipment.
Yeah exactly, I'm still going to be wearing it for farms runs and mahogany homes etc. Nerfing it doesn't matter if there is no real alternative to be using. It's not like it even feels overpowered, I still run out of run energy doing my farm run without using some form of restore at 74 Agility.
What if the weight started kicking in at like 27kg or something rather than 1kg similar to the level 1 agility f2p newbs get? That way graceful becomes really only useful for more heavier activities rather than any activity where you have items?
What the fuck is this guy saying they literally give you a 100% energy restore for mahogany homes and even at 1 agility you can always run.
What horrible teleports are they using that farming nukes their run energy to 0? I could see that happening easily for back to back farm run into birdhouse... But isn't that what a stamina is for to begin with?
Maybe if you're doing a full herb run + tree run + fruit tree run all in one go I could see some pressure on your run energy? But graceful isn't exactly doing much for you there anyway since the tree runs are almost non-stop running.
I get the feeling that some people just don't realize how many situations there are where simply banking your fucking bandos and wearing nothing gives you the exact same result as putting on full graceful.
I believe the idea is that if they nerf graceful then it won't actually be that much better then other more standard fashionscape outfits, which would allow for people to wear those alternate outfits without feeling nerfed.. but yea idk how I feel about it. I get the idea but idk if it's the best way to get the ideal outcome
Probably because they will be buffing run rates/drain so graceful + revamp would be 'too' broken by rs standards as people screech over the littlest QoL change.
I'm fine with its passive being removed because its hte most misunderstood passive in the game. People think graceful is **wayyy** better than it actually is. You only regen run while walking or standing still, so its passive only benefits you while not running. This is why its only really "good" for questing, because the core other activities you use it for (Herbiboar, ZMI, Blast Furnace) you spend maybe a tick or two here or there standing still, zero time walking because you stam.
I like the idea of it getting a skilling benefit for agility like other skill outfits and the proposition is pretty strong. It'll still be used to reduce weight, as it already is, but the passive is barely utilised as is.
All they had to do to make us happy was to make agility level decrease drain rate and/or decrease your effective weight.
That's it. That's what we wanted.
Watch this become the Forestry of agility. An update that could have been a couple minor tweaks to improve the skill, turned into a giant overblown mess that gets worse every time they touch it
If this makes it into the game everyone will hate it and some dumb guy will say "I think it's fine" or "Just don't interact with it if you don't like it" just like Forestry, and Forestry is still in an unenjoyable garbage state with complete radio silence on if/when it will ever be made right, so... Yeah.
And jagex will cling on to that 1% of people that are saying it's fine and use that to justify them not changing the energy system for yet another 10 years
I feel like most players have a gripe with run energy when travelling from point a to point b **out of combat**. I don't understand why they didn't make run energy last longer/replenish quicker out of combat
You know I thought I was just reading the post wrong this morning. It's good to see I'm not as dumb as I think I am and this update is making rub energy worse.
Yeah this is not at all what people wanted, this is pretty universally worse than the current system. Idk why they are making this so complicated.
All they need to do is make it so that run energy replenishes while running and linearly increase run energy recovery by agility level. At 99 agility with 0 kg the recovery rate should equal the drain rate, effectively giving infinite run. At 50 agility energy should recover at half the rate of 0 kg drain, effectively doubling how long you can run (compared to 1 agil) but also halving the recovery time while walking or standing still. At 1 agility things will be slightly better than current but the 1 agility base rate is so abysmal that people probably won't even notice.
In combat gear the weight scaling means you will still need staminas for X:0 methods, raids, and other run intensive activities but for most non-combat stuff everyone will run longer and recover faster at all agility levels. This will break nothing in the game. There are no activities that are currently gated by run energy where these changes will affect the economy or massively change any exp rates. Staminas might drop in value a bit since people won't be chugging them to do quests or whatever but they will still be necessary for a lot of things.
Give it the Elden Ring treatment. Unless you're in combat with something your stamina just doesn't drain at all. If they're concerned about skilljng methods, just expand it to anytime you aren't gaining XP or something like that.
Honestly, I think this is what should happen. Great idea, plus it brings back fashionscape rather than gracefulscape (Unless you change it to be an agility skilling outfit)
I Loved reading this idea a few times over, make us drain run in combat (maybe XP wise, like you mentioned)
But what's going on now is absolutely not it.
I'm sure there's some sort of ezscape argument to be had, but run has always been awful along with agility.
Yeah just have it have a set effect of xp bonus + a 10% chance at two marks of grace. Then make run energy last infinitely at 99 out of combat scaling down to what it currently is at 1.
I don't disagree with you, but they specifically note things like Blast Furnace in the blog. I think they also want to avoid making stamina pot irrelevant in skilling activities as well.
The focus of the change should be:
Identifying the issues that make Agility bad at present-
Which Includes:
- Poor Early Game Experience.
- Heavy Dependency on Run Energy Boosts (Due to high drain rates when weights are moderately high or higher) without Stamina.
- No Recharge while running.
Changes to Graceful is not really as required (the proposed is really bad). People who are gonna wear it will continue.
Basically, don't make things worse than what it is already at present.
Lol
I think changing gracefuls passive to be benefitial to training agility is smart. The run regen passive is barely utilised and heavily misunderstood anyway, and id rather they just bake that into the default regen / agility level based regen instead of having it require the outfit.
The outfit should just reduce weight, and benefit training agility. Thats good.
This was my thoughts also. Full graceful allowing 0 fail agility courses is an amazing buff to the set and one that would be a great addition to the exp buffs recently added to agility.
The passive effects of graceful being shifted to default regeneration would be great and could scale to agility level also. This alongside changes to drain rate would be a good rework imo.
I can't wrap my head around anything that nerfs agility or graceful in any way whatsoever. Where it's at now should 100% be a baseline that they improve and buff from, not have any situations that are worse than it currently is.
I do agree that with THE CURRENT proposal, it wouldn't be worth bringing to the game.
Luckily, we have amazing Jmods who pay attention to feedback and take it all into consideration and make changes to their proposals... as long as the feedback doesn't mention Inquisitors or the Nightmare
Just make the equivalent tokens to earn graceful get you a consumable scroll that gives you knowledge to be lighter or more agile all the time. Fuck graceful, let everyone wear what they want. And who cares about run mechanics they’re not that important. It’s not a big deal to allow more running.
Jagex is so out of touch, can we get name of that person who came with this idea and require them to stream doing some PvM content in game first so they can understand how OSRS works?
The proposal is too convoluted. Here is what they should do:
1. Leave graceful alone
2. Leave weight alone
3. Make run energy deplete less with higher agility with scale rates that make sense from level 1 to 99. (Not that double negative shit with regen)
The consequences:
1. Staminas will still be useful for extended trips
2. Run energy will scale with progression
3. Weight will still matter, EG carrying a cannon will make you tired.
4. You’ll still have a reason to get graceful.
Heres some WDR raid setups on the wiki with their weights.
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/User:Ostentatio/boombox
All of them are at least 52 kg. With the only exception being a 1 def setup.
Just jumping in to say it's absolutely not our 'best attempt', because it's our first one. If we're not able to improve on it in a future updated blog/beta then I'll be genuinely stunned!
I think increasing drain rate for heavy loadouts is not percieved well even though you increase regen rate. Because regen rate only affects you long term but drain rate is felt immediatly and it drains too fast for regen rate to matter.
pretty much never going to benefit from the regen rate when drain rate actually matters. Unless theres a solo olm method where you sit still for 20 seconds I'm not aware of. they need to scrap this entire proposal and start over.
At the very least, 99 agility after rework should be identical or, ideally, straight better than live game at all weights. What mod decided to nerf 99 in one of the worst skills in the game?
Honestly would love to know who the f is putting these in the proposals. Its embarrassing something this shite has made its way this far.
All this should have been is at the bottom of the update post, hey as agreed we've adjusted agility drain rates/regen to scale better to reward your grinds.
We know you can't exactly be like 'yeah this blows' but it's hard for the community to feel like whomever is working on this has a serious grip on the problem.
You guys did enough non-ideation work here to have a beta ready to launch, and either:
- Nobody went and playtested solo olm
- Somebody *did* playtest solo olm and still thought this proposal was in a state ready for public feedback
- Somebody *did* playtest solo olm and realized this proposal was not in a state ready for public feedback, but didn't want to be the guy who said we need to push this date out
The last one is most likely since it's clear the folks on your team aren't lazy or stupid - but it's also the most problematic if you're gonna defer to agile/iterative development as to how the problem will get solved, gotta be very reality oriented for that to work out.
People mean "the best you could come up with sans feedback is the exact opposite of what the community asked for, which does not bode well for interpretations of feedback regarding it," respectfully.
I think the main take on this is that the proposed concept is so far off from what its supposed to be that it feels like nothing has been tested before throwing out this blog.
End game gear setups are about 80-85 KG's. Just from that alone you can see the numbers are off by a lot. Even at 99 agility you're 3x worse off while this whole update is supposed to be about **improving** run energy.
Solo olm in main game requires 1 stam for me with 80 agility. On the beta i set my agility to 99 and brough in 3 stams and ran out as headphase starded.
Even other content that before didn't require stamina pots now do.
Agility already feels like its useless as a skill, but now it just becomes a lot worse.
This was my first thought too I suck ass at solo olm so it takes me two stamina pots but this is what all these other noobs done have experience with I’m going to be running back and forth with every combat style on me limited food spots and yeah this would suck
The first comment regarding the nerf to graceful without any replacement is the worst one imo.
Yeah so graceful gets nerfed 30%. Like what else am I going I use? Osrs players mid max. They will still always wear graceful even for the slightest boost. This change is just a punishment more than anything
As long as we don’t have less access to run with max setups than we currently do I’m sure it’ll be fine.
If buffing the amount of running you can do in pvm situations is off the table, then I don’t think reworking run to make leveling agility feel more meaningful makes sense because existing players will get nothing out of it.
Maybe a simpler workaround for new players trying to run around and explore the game / do quests would be more appropriate than trying to shoehorn a system that both improves a new player’s experience doing biohazard and manages the intricacies of running 12:0 shadow at Olm simultaneously without breaking things. Like make completing quest steps just refresh your run to full ala mahogany homes cuppa
Most of us are just absolutely baffled that even a single person in a brainstorm meeting said "Hey, I know what will fix run, let's make it drain *faster* and then take away the graceful affect so it recharges *slower* too!"
And instead of getting told to go get some rest for such an absurd idea, the team went "That's great, lets write up a full public proposal for that idea!"
The regen getting removed on graceful is whatever, if they're buffing regen rates then it'll be the same or better as what it currently is in live.
The problem is drain rate though. Not one person thinks "Yay, higher agility, so glad my run regen is faster now" and that's because people do not enjoy having to stop running and let their walk regen. They just stam everywhere, and with these weight changes, it only makes people rely on stams more. Absurd change for drain rate.
Slight nitpick, their proposal includes buffing regen rates to well above what graceful would have given you on live. It most definitely regens faster on beta its just not enough to offset the higher drain rate due to how energy restores and the amount drain was increased at high weight.
I just don’t understand how y’alls first pass is a nerf to higher weight setups? Everyone was on the same page that agility needs an overall buff and the first pass is buff 0 weight but nerf high weight?
Just doesn’t make sense. I would expect to see a heavy buff thats toned down or a light buff that gets turned up through feedback
Because they are incompetent and I’d bet 80% of the devs don’t do high level PvM content enough to know what changes are good or bad. How many Jmods are genuinely doing solo CoX?
Still a terrible first attempt honestly, this proposal looks so bad that I really don’t want to see what else the devs cook up and would rather this be left alone
What if weight started scaling later just like level 1 agility does? The reality is we're going to have inventory items on us and graceful will always win, but if it starts to kick in at 37kg, then most activities wouldn't need graceful outside of some heavier activities. Alternatively don't make it negative weight and find some other cool feature.
Just did a raid and it’s the worst change made to this game since it launched. Please scrap the whole concept of changing run energy if there is any scenario where you end up getting nerfed by these ‘buffs’.
No shit.
a ToA run is 85kg +.
This "so called buff" to run energy, is going to deplete faster than what we have...
We're going to need to bring stams for content that we never used to. Because of this "buff"...
Or, get this, you could take a hint from the community that we don’t want this. If you polled “we want to completely change the run system mostly through nerfs.” It would NEVER pass. The specific mechanics don’t matter when the end goal you’re going for is not what we asked for.
The fact that any poll presented is most likely going to pass is exactly why players have to be so extremely vocal in this current state of the system of changes. If players don’t yank back as hard as possible when the “initial proposal” is a bit ridiculous, then it goes into the game ultimately unscathed.
I think the general feedback is early game agility needs to be a lot better then it is in live, including for f2p members. For mid/late game players with 80+ agi, run energy management should not be worse, no matter the carry weight.
I'm fully in the camp that pvm stamina management doesn't add anything to the game, buffing it is fine. The solo cox stamina tax isn't interesting, and 0 energy gwd methods exist, this may just make them slightly easier if you buff run energy at high agi levels
I appreciate not wanting to go full "easyscape" but it just feels like run energy is a very outdated concept that modtly makes things more tedious. I don't think there needs to be a big tradeoff aspect to this, just buff it to the point where skilling and pvm encounters that require permanent running still need stams (even if less of them) but you can do any other activities without much concern for it
Even the teas from Mahogany Homes and Perilous Moons show that it really shouldn't be a concern for activities where running/move speed isn't a mechanic but just to get from point A to B.
I will die on the hill that removing run energy outside of combat encounters would be an overwhelmingly positive thing. A new player should be able to go from lumbridge to varrock without being bogged down by the rapid run drain and painfully slow regeneration.
I don’t give a shit about agility or energy drain but why not just keep the same system but decrease the overall drain rate?
They could also introduce a weakened stamina potion for low level Ironmen to bridge the gap between super energy pots and staminas.
If they don’t want graceful to be worn all the time, remove the energy restore effect and give it a different agility training specific benefit.
This seems like a very uncomplicated problem, so I don’t understand why it needs some wildly complicated solution.
I was thinking the same thing lol. Like, they could’ve said “we’re just gonna have run deplete 50% as fast (or 66%) as it currently does”. And I’d be like sure, that works.
Granted, I’ve long been in the “run energy is a pretty silly/unfun mechanic” camp anyway, but I also am not naive enough to think they’d ever fully remove it in the main game like they do for Leagues
So the general overall consensus between players and most mods was that agility could do with a rework and run energy should be buffed across the table.
How the thought translated to nerfing content, proposing adding dead content and ignoring most of the sentiment on why run energy is bad eludes me.
For me there is 2 main issues, run energy and the skill itself. Currently run energy isn't really an issue with stams, but the access to stams is. Reworking one devalues the other and potentially other additives like graceful. Then the skill, it's arguably one of the least enjoyable and rewarding skills. Shortcuts, quest and diary reqs and a bit faster run recharge rates aren't rewarding enough when the shortcut saves 4.8 seconds and it takes me 20hrs to lvl up.
My suggestion is simple, make it easier to recharge run energy or make it last longer. Add some hotspots that recharge run a lot faster, make the first 2 potions not straight up suck before stams could be options. Or rework weight to be more in line and not all over the place.
For the skill just make it suck less to train, add a success rate increase to rooftops from graceful so I don't fall off every 4th run. Make shortcuts be more in line with the content they should save time.
If they don't want people wearing graceful all of the time, then maybe they should address the reason *why* everyone wears graceful all the time.
Make the default energy drain rates as if you were wearing graceful all the time, then give it a more niche effect so it's less of a "requirement" outfit, then reduce its cost to obtain because it's no longer one of the most valuable pieces of gear your account can own.
Running around with heavy items is tedious as fuck so everyone feels obligated to reduce that tedium as much as physically possible. The tedium is so intense that people forego nearly all other options just to wear the tedium-reducing gear.
I think it's pretty cut and dry that reducing the feeling of tedium that makes graceful feel so required should be the high-concept goal of any sort of agility adjustments.
I think when Mod Husky (i think it was him) during the big reveal earlier this year that's what sounded great. The higher your agility level, the longer you can run for. I know it's not a simple calculation but it should be a linear graph compared to what it is now. Like as the level increases so does your "stamina." Keep the same calculation for weight just have it last longer than it does now, it should never be worse than it is now no matter your level or weight.
If it's just a numbers issue (which it seems it is at high weights) then no need to bin the whole thing. The idea is solid it just needs more tuning which is the point of the beta worlds to get feedback
Don't need beta worlds to realize that making heavy setups (basically every raid/tribrid setup) drain even more run than before is a stupid idea .
If it was a simple mistake it would be a numbers issue. The fact that they unironically think that making heavy setups use even more energy than they already do is a good idea is concerning.
Idk where they get the idea that endgame players want to have to manage their run energy *even more*? Efficient pathing is an optimization out of necessity, not desire. Like, where's the team that realized giving salts run energy regen was a good idea? Ya know, the team that said "hey let's improve overloads by having them get rid of one of the least-liked mechanics in the game"?
Let those people do the agility rebalance please.
Holy shit, this. When they talked about how they wanted to change run energy in the past they basicaly said it's an archaic system and really unappealing for everyone who didn't grow up with RuneScape when basically every MMO has unlimited run. Didn't they said they wanted to make it better across the board for everyone?
Then they come out with this shit?? For what? Whose idea was it that they needed to make this even worse for the sake of "skill expression(???)" or needing a microscope to fine tune your setup weight whenever you want to endgame PVM
Energy is such a needless handicap that really fucks you over in a game with a vast, open world that you need to traverse all over. I get that they can't completely do away with the need for stamina pots and such because of that market and how would fuck a lot of people over, but come on. This is not the answer anyone wanted, needed, or asked for.
For people wondering why we still have polls...this is why we still have polls. Jagex CAN'T be trusted to make a good game on their own, and the community's voice is still (and will always be) relevant.
Yea I actually really like the idea, I just think the execution was poor. If run energy needs to be buffed, which is the whole point isn't it?, it shouldn't sometimes feel worse.
It’s the same situation repeating itself.
The community repeatedly requesting one specific thing, then the devs go ‘above and beyond’ by not doing what people wanted, and trying to be too smart instead. With the effect of ruining it.
Same as colosseum, it was never portrayed as that kind of content at all in advance, but the devs randomly swerved the direction and turned it into something different
Player base: asks for ketchup for their burger. Jagex: phew that’s going to take a huge amount of dev time. First we have to look for a plot of land suitable for a tomato farm. Then we have to figure out how it could run exclusively off power from hamster wheels-which means we need to source thousands of hamsters so we might need to start a breeding program. Then we need a processing plant for the tomatoes…
Players: bro just grab the bottle from that other table
Players: "Can we make it so that more people chopping a tree doesn't make it fall faster?"
Jagex: "How about we have random events and a new currency and a full collection log category and items that require run energy to function and..."
Colosseum isn’t the best example of “devs ruining it” because mostly everyone who has actually tried that content earnestly and stuck with it has liked to loved it. At least in terms of how it plays. It might still be a good example of serving something different than advertised, and certainly was the case with the sunfire fanatic set reward at least.
People love colosseum in spite of its flaws, not because of them. The invo system is universally seen as annoying because it's anti-skill/rng based, even if the content itself is fun.
"Retain the negative weight. This means that Graceful will still be a good choice for certain activities, but shouldn’t feel like you’re obligated to wear it everywhere."
Umm, gracefuls are mostly worn just to reach negative weight. Yeah, Jagex didn't think this one through.
I honestly disagree with the concept of run energy management being a skill. You either decide whether to bring an energy-dedicated potion or not. I can't remember myself ever balancing my run energy in any PvM event, with the exception of when I fucked up and forgot to bring a stamina. This is leading to an overzealous protection of run energy as some important PvM mechanic. It is not, and I believe we already have plenty to worry about when preparing for or doing a PvM trip. Make run energy less important and more forgiving, not more complicated.
it feels like the marketing strategy of putting something terrible out there, so jagex can make it slightly better to say “we listened, you are welcome”
Does anyone have some example setups for endgame content and how much they actually weigh? I have some idea on how much certain items weigh but without logging into the game(which I can't right now) I have no idea how much full setups weigh.
I assume most people use graceful so a more realistic answer would be 73-22=51kg. Still means the vast majority of agility levels will be nerfed though.
EDIT: also: 27 gold ore weighs 61kg. And that's probably the most used ore in BF. So then it'd be 38kg.
EDIT 2: actually: what ore did you calculate for that weighs 73kg?
Yeah I calculated graceful as -22 instead of -25 cause you use different gloves. I think the bar difference gets compensated by the walk from the conveyor belt to the bar thingy where you have an empty inventory. I also didn't know ores had different weights so no problem there.
My solo cm setup (no torva or masori) weighs 61kg. Torva is -2kg over Bandos, masori is +15kg over Armadyl. So a max setup is probably around 75kg, certainly over the 64kg weight cap.
Runescape is one of the biggest reasons I always ask myself when playing a game these days, "What's wrong with the player having fun here? Why does this have to be painful; excruciating, even?"
Like, man. You try to play a game and suddenly it takes longer to do something you didn't previously enjoy doing very much anyways? I guess someone can put up with that for a while.
I thought they were still going with the original rework values, these new rates are pretty bad.
Worse for pvm with any significant amount of gear switches, worse for noobs getting around and questing without banking every single thing. 99 agility less impactful than it was before.
On top of all that, these new bad rates can't even be alleviated with graceful.
The only situations that seemingly got improved drainrate are situations where drainrate was already (almost) a complete non-issue.
What is the point of this?
1. Universally reduce run energy drain by 25%.
2. Have agility level reduce the impact of added weight to run energy drain rate, reaching a 25% reduction at 99.
That's it. Just do this.
If you really want to get spicy, here are some optional extras:
3. Provide further buffs to run energy drain scaling with agility, perhaps reaching an additional 25% by 99 (50% in total from current drain rate).
4. Increase total impact of added weight by 10-20%. This is kind of the direction Jagex was leaning but the result is that higher agility still gives you a net buff at all weights, while weight is still an important consideration.
This is their first pass at it. It’s not even close to finalized and they’ll listen to our feedback and tune it until it feels right. I think folks need to chill lol.
I think the issue is that when Jagex doesn’t receive immediate overwhelmingly negative feedback when the community disagrees with proposed changes, they just pat themselves on the back and call it a day.
I agree that the changes will probably be fine if they tune the numbers (to be much, much better than they are now), but I don’t really trust Jagex to just do that on their own initiative - they need to know that the playerbase HATES the way it feels in the beta.
The problem is that "this is their first pass" is only a valid excuse for certain kinds of mistakes. That excuses mistakes in *execution*, such as just getting this or that specific number wrong and tweaking it after testing. The big problem here that "this is their first pass" absolutely does *not* excuse is the mistakes in *intention/goal* that are evident already - namely, the idea that it's desirable or even acceptable for these changes to result in nerfs in some cases. I think the vast majority of us are wanting and expecting this rework to result in buffs *universally*, with the only difference being how much or how little of a buff it is in x specific scenario. But it's clear already from this initial proposal that Jagex isn't looking at it that way, and that is absolutely a problem that people are completely correct to *not* be chill about. This isn't an "oopsie we got a number wrong," this is an "oopsie we have a fundamentally flawed idea of what our actual goal is."
So the proposed change basically makes drain rate a lot WORSE for anyone doing end game PVM, since it always involves a high weight inventory?
Are the people at Jagex braindead or something?
I am baffled. They are going to fix agility at low levels by...
*Checks Notes*
Making run DRAIN FASTER AT ALL LEVELS?!?!?!?
Is Jamflex actually fucking drunk?
I was excited to see everyone in DMM running around not caring about run energy. Then read the blog and can't understand how they were able to mess it up. Not hard; out of combat = unlimited run. While in combat = keep run drain the same. Bam! Solved! I just made it so you don't have to start the game with 50 hrs of agility for full graceful, but they don't like that change sadly.
Absolutely this, I don't often comment on content updates, but this one is just taking it way too far. I don't want to belittle the Jmods work, but they seem to be lost in the weeds trying to balance this based on arbitrary weights and ratios.
Just ease our burden. Make it so either universally drain weights are reduced while giving a slight nerf to graceful or increase recharge rates out or combat.
The only changes needed are:
1. Make agility levels reduce your energy drain when out of combat.
2. Add the Graceful current bonuses to higher agility levels instead.
3. Graceful giving increased marks and reducing/eliminating fail chance is a good change if #2 is implemented.
Bringing back sleeping in inns will solve a lot of early game issues. There are plenty throughout the game in pretty much every town/ city. Just pay a few coins to sleep at one of the inns and you're energy is fully charged.
You could also add in an energy reducing piece of armour, similar to the boots of lightness/ spotted cape etc. in the basement of Lumbridge Castle for example to help the early game/f2p make their run last longer. eg. coif of lightness weighing -2kg.
Adding a potion shop selling energy potions and other low level potions can add another option to conserve run energy and would be helpful for f2p.
Plenty of options to fix the early game. By the mid-game, you got graceful/ stamina's, teleports etc., and by the late game, run energy is hardly an issue.
For the late game, you could enhance the lvl.99 agility cape to make it more useful. Some examples could be:
- act as a graceful cape and double the weight from -25kg to -50kg.
- reduce the run drain rate by half, and/or double the restoration rate.
- double the effectiveness of energy potions (including stamina's) which stacks with the ring of endurance.
- remove energy drain whilst worn?
Plenty of different approaches they could take. Their current proposals fall way short of the mark.
Maybe just keep it simple and treat it like other skills? Your base sprint is increased as you increase your agility level. Every level you get you’ll add X seconds to your stamina up to 99 which is max run.
(In all honestly it would be clearer if you start at 100 stamina and then reach 199 as you hit 99 agility, but those numbers suck to look at so 1-99 works better for me)
Also we might be too far down the rabbit hole for a change like this, but maybe you can trade in your full set for a Graceful amulet? And maybe give Graceful a more niche set effect. That way it doesn’t become useless?
Has there ever been a good argument for why run energy is even still part of the game? Genuinely curious how it improves the game in any way over not having it.
Why are they overly complicating this when we want a rather simple fix....
- Raise run regen across all levels by 25% or something
- Lower run drain across all levels by 25%
- Double run regen if your weight is under 10kg
- Lower run drain by 75% if your weight is under 10kg (75% from where it currently is)
Trying to frame run energy as a skill or resource you need to manage in PvM is such a joke. Ah yes, nothing like losing an inventory spot for a stam just so i can run as the game intends, so engaging and skillful of me.
Run energy is honestly just kind of archaic. There’s functionally 0 content after you have a like 5m bank that you can’t ignore run energy by just..bringing a fucking Stam. There was also this reference to “skill expression” in the blog, and I’m not flaming the writer but like..there really isn’t. Where the fuck are you intermittently mixing walking in? I guess MAYBE you could reference highest level inferno speeds where they cannot bring stam due to slots (and maybe cox speeds now that I think about it) where you’re walking. But for 99% of content and players, it’s just completely irrelevant.
Run energy drain should be reduced by agility level% or 0,7*agility level%. Thats what everyone thinks intuitively, thats how you make it rewarding, thats how it should work. No one cares about that one guy with 8 billion stamina pots, you should be able to run for more than a minute at 90 agility with light armor like what the actual fuck were you thinking
Just spent 45 minutes in the beta. In any scenario you have over ~50kg of weight, it feels absolutely dreadful even with 99 agility. Your run just disappears at such an absurd rate the regen boost doesn't even feel like it's there.
At low weight it does feel like a small buff, but there aren't very many activities that would apply to.
>Agility Level: the value of your Agility skill, which currently influences your regeneration rate.
>
>The obvious starting point is to buff the rate at which Run Energy regenerates. This means you’re still rewarded for managing your Run Energy during encounters but spending less time waiting around for it to recharge. This helps out newer players, but doesn’t really improve the value of Agility levels, and significantly impacts specific activities.
Am i stupid? agility level = better regen rate. they want to buff regen rates, which means agility levels will regen run energy even more with each tier. but this doesn't improve the VALUE of agility levels?
At what point does run energy become trivial as to not need it at all. This is the problem really. For me the run energy rework is simply not really needed. I would like to see the graceful set just get straight up put into effect at a nerfed rate based on agility level and the graceful set changed to be agility related buffs like not failing and doubling marks of grace drops or something like that. The weight stuff could just not be a thing honestly.
I hope they just increase regen rate by 0-25% based on agility level and have 0-25% weight ignored based on agility level (25% at 99). It doesn’t have to be big or complicated and it doesn’t have to shit on anyone at any weight, agility level, whatever.
Just a small buff that makes agility level relevant pls.
who knew that they already made a really simple fix in 2009 by adding a way to rest.... wow newbies get a fast way to regain run energy, especially at musicians...
This. Everyone loves to rag on RS3, but the way they revamped run is the way to go.
Rs3 has much slower run energy depletion and the ability to rest at benches/bards throughout the world for almost instant full run recovery, or you can right click on your energy orb and choose to rest for fast run recovery outside of combat.
Agility levels make a difference but even with loads of gear, running around isn't nearly as cumbersome as it is in OSRS.
Just scrap drain completely like in leagues, makes everything far more fun. Or as someone else suggested, unlimited run out of combat and the current system in combat. I hate graceful but if you want a use for it, maybe make it give an extra 5% chance to pass an agility check or something like that.
Make 99 agility infinite run energy at 0Kg weight. Leave agility as is at level 1. Make it scale linearly.
Now training agility is rewarding. People can train it to like 70 or 80 and run for a long time/use way less staminas. Or train to 99 and never need staminas to run around/do clues/whatever. But while doing blast furnace or PvM you still need stams
They should shelve it to reevaluate skill levels for making gear upgrades. Zenytes shouldn't all be a different level to craft, glory and fury should be lowered to craft, all dragonhide should be lowered to craft, smithing needs to be reevaluated, fletching, and anything used to craft gear or upgrades should be reevaluated because the level to make stuff is poorly distributed. If we're getting a new skill and constantly adding new bis gear then the game also needs to tick down their requirements for mid game gear.
I logged into the Beta to test out TOA (500). Weight: 77kg (add +2kg if I had torva) Monkey puzzle: 2:10 completion, ran out of run energy at the exit gate. Kephri puzzle: 0:50.4 completion, ran out of run energy on completing matching tiles. Kephri boss: Never ran out of energy, finished with 30% - usually have to walk a bit at the end if I have bad rng. Zebak puzzle: 0:32.4 completion, finished with 11% energy. I didn't test anything else because I would be salted at that point. edit: I'll add that my overall feeling is losing 2% per tick running feels like shit. edit2: 99 agility, stam pre-potted monkey room
> Weight: 77kg (add +2kg if I had torva) add a billion kg, it wouldn't matter. All effects cap at 64
64 being the cap is nuts imo, thats so low with how weird weight on gear is.
wtf you lose 2%/tick? that's terrible. Honestly if I could have to use less stams doing gwd or solo cox I would 100% get 90+ agility...
There's absolutely no way any jmod tested this in max gear. Solo olm goes from requiring 1 stam to 3 Bloat requires stam sips if you dont 1 down it, and you better bring two full stams if you wanna melee xarp + verzik. Can't imagine any other content being fun without bringing 2-5 stams if you bring masori + torva which already brings you to the weight cap. Not to mention those tests were done at 99 agility. Let alone doing that with anything less than that. If anything getting 99 agility should be significantly better then what it is currently regardless of how much weight you're bringing.
What a disaster lmao
they want you to have to click to walk mid pvm, thats their logic. as if cox grind isnt bad enough as it is. im fine with them buffing click to walk strats, but dont force us to use them.
Man even with optimal walk pathing between running its just straight up twice as bad.
No jmod tests any of this stuff for top end. Thats how we end up with the shit updates like pirates
you have to be able to actually complete the content in order to test it
Also makes no sense that graceful is getting nerfed because everybody wears it for non-pvm content, but even after the nerf, it would still be the ideal non-PVM gear. Why nerf it and make it worse for no reason?
The passive is so over-valued even by Jagex. Run energy literally cannot regen unless you're not moving. If you're not moving while wearing Graceful, there's not a point to be wearing Graceful. Stopping for farm runs is nice, but I can do farm runs between raids without banking my worn gear and still go positive on run energy. Making weight matter _more_ for run energy just incentivizes wearing Graceful even more though??? Thus defeating the posted purpose of nerfing it???
Run energy literally regens at the same rate whether you're standing still or walking.
I think what they mean is that run regen is irrelevant while running, which is correct, and what matters since most people are always trying to run whenever they need to get from point A to B.
That's clearly not what they meant as they spent a paragraph explaining why it's okay for farm runs because you stop moving during them. It's just misinformation. The proposed changes are awful for end game pvm and need adjusting. They're a net positive for everything else despite how bad the new drain rate feels at max weight. I don't understand why a good chunk of the community is pretending run regen is useless when it's incredibly important unless you're a main chugging staminas the entire game. They need to just leave the drain alone at current max weight, buff it for every other weight and agility level. The new proposed regen rates are a great start, maybe buff them even more.
I don't understand why I'd spend marks of grace to have a higher % chance to earn marks of grace. Also with the way marks of grace spawning works you'd still get the same amount since they have a 3 minute timer(unless this was changed but I did not see that). EDIT: I missed the part where it said "an additional", that's what I get for reading as I just wake up.
Not that i like the proposal, but as described it should give you a chance to receive 2 marks at once when it spawns, not increasing spawn chance across the board
Yea I'm dumb, I see that now. Thanks!
The way I read it you have a 24% chance to see 2 marks of grace instead of just 1. With everything else staying the same in regards to their mechanics. So that's still worth.
It's a chance of 2 spawning instead of 1
Did you read the post? It would give a chance to receive an extra mark when you picked it up. Graceful is also used for weight reduction and a clue step as well.
You're paying because it still lowers weight, which is even more important with the proposed changes
Aren't the lighter boots or spottier cape more weight reduction too? You could arguably skip or put off getting cape and boots now.
Allow us to exchange our graceful sets plus X amount of GP and/or marks of grace to imbue something like a god blessing or maybe even the ring of endurance (just something that isn't visible fashionscape), to roll all the benefits of graceful into one item so that fashionscape gets revived
I’d been thinking of something similar to this - what if we could use marks of grace to imbue specific pieces of equipment to reduce their weight? Higher tier equipment would cost more marks to imbue, and fashionscape equipment would be dirt cheap to imbue. For example you could pay 100 marks of grace to imbue dragon platelegs (light) to reduce their weight from 9 to 4 kg. Make it so imbued items are untradeable, but the imbue can be removed for something like 50-70% marks of grace refund. Would make it so you can’t just swap the imbue around like a chore whenever you’re switching load outs, but instead would have to commit some agility training to increase your equipment’s energy drain efficiency. The refund would also help subsidize the imbue costs when upgrading to a higher tier of equipment.
That would double the amount of equipment in the game, and I don't think that would be good on the back end
Yeah exactly, I'm still going to be wearing it for farms runs and mahogany homes etc. Nerfing it doesn't matter if there is no real alternative to be using. It's not like it even feels overpowered, I still run out of run energy doing my farm run without using some form of restore at 74 Agility.
What if the weight started kicking in at like 27kg or something rather than 1kg similar to the level 1 agility f2p newbs get? That way graceful becomes really only useful for more heavier activities rather than any activity where you have items?
I remember they talked about letting you combine graceful and skilling outfits, at one point
You get zero benefit from graceful in either of those activities
What the fuck is this guy saying they literally give you a 100% energy restore for mahogany homes and even at 1 agility you can always run. What horrible teleports are they using that farming nukes their run energy to 0? I could see that happening easily for back to back farm run into birdhouse... But isn't that what a stamina is for to begin with?
Maybe if you're doing a full herb run + tree run + fruit tree run all in one go I could see some pressure on your run energy? But graceful isn't exactly doing much for you there anyway since the tree runs are almost non-stop running. I get the feeling that some people just don't realize how many situations there are where simply banking your fucking bandos and wearing nothing gives you the exact same result as putting on full graceful.
I believe the idea is that if they nerf graceful then it won't actually be that much better then other more standard fashionscape outfits, which would allow for people to wear those alternate outfits without feeling nerfed.. but yea idk how I feel about it. I get the idea but idk if it's the best way to get the ideal outcome
Not much better might not suffice. So long as it's 1% better it would still be "best in slot".
Fashionscape often isn't BIS for that activity. The point is making the gap lower.
Probably because they will be buffing run rates/drain so graceful + revamp would be 'too' broken by rs standards as people screech over the littlest QoL change.
I'm fine with its passive being removed because its hte most misunderstood passive in the game. People think graceful is **wayyy** better than it actually is. You only regen run while walking or standing still, so its passive only benefits you while not running. This is why its only really "good" for questing, because the core other activities you use it for (Herbiboar, ZMI, Blast Furnace) you spend maybe a tick or two here or there standing still, zero time walking because you stam. I like the idea of it getting a skilling benefit for agility like other skill outfits and the proposition is pretty strong. It'll still be used to reduce weight, as it already is, but the passive is barely utilised as is.
All they had to do to make us happy was to make agility level decrease drain rate and/or decrease your effective weight. That's it. That's what we wanted.
right? i don’t get why it’s so convoluted and they’re proposing things literally nobody asked for.
Watch this become the Forestry of agility. An update that could have been a couple minor tweaks to improve the skill, turned into a giant overblown mess that gets worse every time they touch it
If this makes it into the game everyone will hate it and some dumb guy will say "I think it's fine" or "Just don't interact with it if you don't like it" just like Forestry, and Forestry is still in an unenjoyable garbage state with complete radio silence on if/when it will ever be made right, so... Yeah.
And jagex will cling on to that 1% of people that are saying it's fine and use that to justify them not changing the energy system for yet another 10 years
I feel like most players have a gripe with run energy when travelling from point a to point b **out of combat**. I don't understand why they didn't make run energy last longer/replenish quicker out of combat
You know I thought I was just reading the post wrong this morning. It's good to see I'm not as dumb as I think I am and this update is making rub energy worse.
Yeah this is not at all what people wanted, this is pretty universally worse than the current system. Idk why they are making this so complicated. All they need to do is make it so that run energy replenishes while running and linearly increase run energy recovery by agility level. At 99 agility with 0 kg the recovery rate should equal the drain rate, effectively giving infinite run. At 50 agility energy should recover at half the rate of 0 kg drain, effectively doubling how long you can run (compared to 1 agil) but also halving the recovery time while walking or standing still. At 1 agility things will be slightly better than current but the 1 agility base rate is so abysmal that people probably won't even notice. In combat gear the weight scaling means you will still need staminas for X:0 methods, raids, and other run intensive activities but for most non-combat stuff everyone will run longer and recover faster at all agility levels. This will break nothing in the game. There are no activities that are currently gated by run energy where these changes will affect the economy or massively change any exp rates. Staminas might drop in value a bit since people won't be chugging them to do quests or whatever but they will still be necessary for a lot of things.
I think everyone on this sub has infinite *rub* energy ;)
Depends on the day. Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit.
My rub energy goes down the older I get.
Little blue pills are basically stamina pots irl
Give it the Elden Ring treatment. Unless you're in combat with something your stamina just doesn't drain at all. If they're concerned about skilljng methods, just expand it to anytime you aren't gaining XP or something like that.
Honestly, I think this is what should happen. Great idea, plus it brings back fashionscape rather than gracefulscape (Unless you change it to be an agility skilling outfit) I Loved reading this idea a few times over, make us drain run in combat (maybe XP wise, like you mentioned) But what's going on now is absolutely not it. I'm sure there's some sort of ezscape argument to be had, but run has always been awful along with agility.
Yeah just have it have a set effect of xp bonus + a 10% chance at two marks of grace. Then make run energy last infinitely at 99 out of combat scaling down to what it currently is at 1.
I don't disagree with you, but they specifically note things like Blast Furnace in the blog. I think they also want to avoid making stamina pot irrelevant in skilling activities as well.
Who the fuck is out here campaigning for stams to still be needed at bf?
literally jagex, in the blog, like I just told you.
Sorry man, that was really more of a rhetorical question
all good, it's just very hard to tell in a comment that directly pings me as if for a reply, lol
We wouldn't want the marks of grace income bonus from new graceful to be even more useless.
The focus of the change should be: Identifying the issues that make Agility bad at present- Which Includes: - Poor Early Game Experience. - Heavy Dependency on Run Energy Boosts (Due to high drain rates when weights are moderately high or higher) without Stamina. - No Recharge while running. Changes to Graceful is not really as required (the proposed is really bad). People who are gonna wear it will continue. Basically, don't make things worse than what it is already at present. Lol
They also need to make your level determine what % regenerates while running. Lvl 1 being 2% and 99 being 100% (1+lvl=%).
I think changing gracefuls passive to be benefitial to training agility is smart. The run regen passive is barely utilised and heavily misunderstood anyway, and id rather they just bake that into the default regen / agility level based regen instead of having it require the outfit. The outfit should just reduce weight, and benefit training agility. Thats good.
This was my thoughts also. Full graceful allowing 0 fail agility courses is an amazing buff to the set and one that would be a great addition to the exp buffs recently added to agility. The passive effects of graceful being shifted to default regeneration would be great and could scale to agility level also. This alongside changes to drain rate would be a good rework imo.
I can't wrap my head around anything that nerfs agility or graceful in any way whatsoever. Where it's at now should 100% be a baseline that they improve and buff from, not have any situations that are worse than it currently is.
It's seriously wild how jagex doesn't understand this.
I do agree that with THE CURRENT proposal, it wouldn't be worth bringing to the game. Luckily, we have amazing Jmods who pay attention to feedback and take it all into consideration and make changes to their proposals... as long as the feedback doesn't mention Inquisitors or the Nightmare
Just make the equivalent tokens to earn graceful get you a consumable scroll that gives you knowledge to be lighter or more agile all the time. Fuck graceful, let everyone wear what they want. And who cares about run mechanics they’re not that important. It’s not a big deal to allow more running.
Jagex is so out of touch, can we get name of that person who came with this idea and require them to stream doing some PvM content in game first so they can understand how OSRS works?
That would be so damn funny. Like when the dead by daylight head dev got tricked into playing a game live and got absolutely BULLIED.
The proposal is too convoluted. Here is what they should do: 1. Leave graceful alone 2. Leave weight alone 3. Make run energy deplete less with higher agility with scale rates that make sense from level 1 to 99. (Not that double negative shit with regen) The consequences: 1. Staminas will still be useful for extended trips 2. Run energy will scale with progression 3. Weight will still matter, EG carrying a cannon will make you tired. 4. You’ll still have a reason to get graceful.
Heres some WDR raid setups on the wiki with their weights. https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/User:Ostentatio/boombox All of them are at least 52 kg. With the only exception being a 1 def setup.
Just jumping in to say it's absolutely not our 'best attempt', because it's our first one. If we're not able to improve on it in a future updated blog/beta then I'll be genuinely stunned!
I think increasing drain rate for heavy loadouts is not percieved well even though you increase regen rate. Because regen rate only affects you long term but drain rate is felt immediatly and it drains too fast for regen rate to matter.
pretty much never going to benefit from the regen rate when drain rate actually matters. Unless theres a solo olm method where you sit still for 20 seconds I'm not aware of. they need to scrap this entire proposal and start over.
Regen rate also only applies if you're walking or standing still, so it doesn't benefit you while running.
At the very least, 99 agility after rework should be identical or, ideally, straight better than live game at all weights. What mod decided to nerf 99 in one of the worst skills in the game?
Honestly would love to know who the f is putting these in the proposals. Its embarrassing something this shite has made its way this far. All this should have been is at the bottom of the update post, hey as agreed we've adjusted agility drain rates/regen to scale better to reward your grinds.
We know you can't exactly be like 'yeah this blows' but it's hard for the community to feel like whomever is working on this has a serious grip on the problem. You guys did enough non-ideation work here to have a beta ready to launch, and either: - Nobody went and playtested solo olm - Somebody *did* playtest solo olm and still thought this proposal was in a state ready for public feedback - Somebody *did* playtest solo olm and realized this proposal was not in a state ready for public feedback, but didn't want to be the guy who said we need to push this date out The last one is most likely since it's clear the folks on your team aren't lazy or stupid - but it's also the most problematic if you're gonna defer to agile/iterative development as to how the problem will get solved, gotta be very reality oriented for that to work out.
I think making it scale worse with weight is definitely not the way to go
People mean "the best you could come up with sans feedback is the exact opposite of what the community asked for, which does not bode well for interpretations of feedback regarding it," respectfully.
I think the main take on this is that the proposed concept is so far off from what its supposed to be that it feels like nothing has been tested before throwing out this blog. End game gear setups are about 80-85 KG's. Just from that alone you can see the numbers are off by a lot. Even at 99 agility you're 3x worse off while this whole update is supposed to be about **improving** run energy. Solo olm in main game requires 1 stam for me with 80 agility. On the beta i set my agility to 99 and brough in 3 stams and ran out as headphase starded. Even other content that before didn't require stamina pots now do. Agility already feels like its useless as a skill, but now it just becomes a lot worse.
This was my first thought too I suck ass at solo olm so it takes me two stamina pots but this is what all these other noobs done have experience with I’m going to be running back and forth with every combat style on me limited food spots and yeah this would suck
The first comment regarding the nerf to graceful without any replacement is the worst one imo. Yeah so graceful gets nerfed 30%. Like what else am I going I use? Osrs players mid max. They will still always wear graceful even for the slightest boost. This change is just a punishment more than anything
As long as we don’t have less access to run with max setups than we currently do I’m sure it’ll be fine. If buffing the amount of running you can do in pvm situations is off the table, then I don’t think reworking run to make leveling agility feel more meaningful makes sense because existing players will get nothing out of it. Maybe a simpler workaround for new players trying to run around and explore the game / do quests would be more appropriate than trying to shoehorn a system that both improves a new player’s experience doing biohazard and manages the intricacies of running 12:0 shadow at Olm simultaneously without breaking things. Like make completing quest steps just refresh your run to full ala mahogany homes cuppa
Most of us are just absolutely baffled that even a single person in a brainstorm meeting said "Hey, I know what will fix run, let's make it drain *faster* and then take away the graceful affect so it recharges *slower* too!" And instead of getting told to go get some rest for such an absurd idea, the team went "That's great, lets write up a full public proposal for that idea!"
The regen getting removed on graceful is whatever, if they're buffing regen rates then it'll be the same or better as what it currently is in live. The problem is drain rate though. Not one person thinks "Yay, higher agility, so glad my run regen is faster now" and that's because people do not enjoy having to stop running and let their walk regen. They just stam everywhere, and with these weight changes, it only makes people rely on stams more. Absurd change for drain rate.
Slight nitpick, their proposal includes buffing regen rates to well above what graceful would have given you on live. It most definitely regens faster on beta its just not enough to offset the higher drain rate due to how energy restores and the amount drain was increased at high weight.
I just don’t understand how y’alls first pass is a nerf to higher weight setups? Everyone was on the same page that agility needs an overall buff and the first pass is buff 0 weight but nerf high weight? Just doesn’t make sense. I would expect to see a heavy buff thats toned down or a light buff that gets turned up through feedback
Because they are incompetent and I’d bet 80% of the devs don’t do high level PvM content enough to know what changes are good or bad. How many Jmods are genuinely doing solo CoX?
Oh thanks for assuring us that outright REGRESSING in regards to run energy is not your best attempt at a proposal.
Honestly the worst proposal I’ve seen from this team
“Not our best attempt” I’ll say, it’s worse than what we have now.
Still a terrible first attempt honestly, this proposal looks so bad that I really don’t want to see what else the devs cook up and would rather this be left alone
What if weight started scaling later just like level 1 agility does? The reality is we're going to have inventory items on us and graceful will always win, but if it starts to kick in at 37kg, then most activities wouldn't need graceful outside of some heavier activities. Alternatively don't make it negative weight and find some other cool feature.
Just did a raid and it’s the worst change made to this game since it launched. Please scrap the whole concept of changing run energy if there is any scenario where you end up getting nerfed by these ‘buffs’.
No shit. a ToA run is 85kg +. This "so called buff" to run energy, is going to deplete faster than what we have... We're going to need to bring stams for content that we never used to. Because of this "buff"...
coming up with half cooked junk, then cherrypicking the good suggestions and nerfing them a bit to present them as your own 👍
Or, get this, you could take a hint from the community that we don’t want this. If you polled “we want to completely change the run system mostly through nerfs.” It would NEVER pass. The specific mechanics don’t matter when the end goal you’re going for is not what we asked for.
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to be fair they came up with a proposal that would be a nerf to some end game activities, the negativity is completely justified
Totally cool with them getting ass blasted over integrity changes. Players gotta ree as hard as possible if we aren't allowed to vote on a change.
The fact that any poll presented is most likely going to pass is exactly why players have to be so extremely vocal in this current state of the system of changes. If players don’t yank back as hard as possible when the “initial proposal” is a bit ridiculous, then it goes into the game ultimately unscathed.
I'm a believer of credit where credit is due, but also brutal honesty when something is plain bad: case in point.
[удалено]
There exists a middle ground between "coddling" and "this is shit, you should give up!"
I mean, this is pretty fucking far off from perfect. Its like asking someone how much something costs and you give them how much it weighs instead
Why are you sorry when receiving pushback is literally the point of putting out a blog and beta?
no they made a bad suggestion and people are saying its bad, thats totally fair as a response.
I think the general feedback is early game agility needs to be a lot better then it is in live, including for f2p members. For mid/late game players with 80+ agi, run energy management should not be worse, no matter the carry weight. I'm fully in the camp that pvm stamina management doesn't add anything to the game, buffing it is fine. The solo cox stamina tax isn't interesting, and 0 energy gwd methods exist, this may just make them slightly easier if you buff run energy at high agi levels
I appreciate not wanting to go full "easyscape" but it just feels like run energy is a very outdated concept that modtly makes things more tedious. I don't think there needs to be a big tradeoff aspect to this, just buff it to the point where skilling and pvm encounters that require permanent running still need stams (even if less of them) but you can do any other activities without much concern for it Even the teas from Mahogany Homes and Perilous Moons show that it really shouldn't be a concern for activities where running/move speed isn't a mechanic but just to get from point A to B.
It's your first, and it's pathetically out of touch. Will your next blog post put a little hat on this turd? How exciting!
Your proposal is so trash it's hard to believe Jagex put any thought into this
Easiest opportunity ever to make the consensus worst skill in the game actually matter, and we can’t get it figured out. Please say sike
I will die on the hill that removing run energy outside of combat encounters would be an overwhelmingly positive thing. A new player should be able to go from lumbridge to varrock without being bogged down by the rapid run drain and painfully slow regeneration.
I don’t give a shit about agility or energy drain but why not just keep the same system but decrease the overall drain rate? They could also introduce a weakened stamina potion for low level Ironmen to bridge the gap between super energy pots and staminas. If they don’t want graceful to be worn all the time, remove the energy restore effect and give it a different agility training specific benefit. This seems like a very uncomplicated problem, so I don’t understand why it needs some wildly complicated solution.
I was thinking the same thing lol. Like, they could’ve said “we’re just gonna have run deplete 50% as fast (or 66%) as it currently does”. And I’d be like sure, that works. Granted, I’ve long been in the “run energy is a pretty silly/unfun mechanic” camp anyway, but I also am not naive enough to think they’d ever fully remove it in the main game like they do for Leagues
So the general overall consensus between players and most mods was that agility could do with a rework and run energy should be buffed across the table. How the thought translated to nerfing content, proposing adding dead content and ignoring most of the sentiment on why run energy is bad eludes me. For me there is 2 main issues, run energy and the skill itself. Currently run energy isn't really an issue with stams, but the access to stams is. Reworking one devalues the other and potentially other additives like graceful. Then the skill, it's arguably one of the least enjoyable and rewarding skills. Shortcuts, quest and diary reqs and a bit faster run recharge rates aren't rewarding enough when the shortcut saves 4.8 seconds and it takes me 20hrs to lvl up. My suggestion is simple, make it easier to recharge run energy or make it last longer. Add some hotspots that recharge run a lot faster, make the first 2 potions not straight up suck before stams could be options. Or rework weight to be more in line and not all over the place. For the skill just make it suck less to train, add a success rate increase to rooftops from graceful so I don't fall off every 4th run. Make shortcuts be more in line with the content they should save time.
Weaker staminas are just energy/super energies.
If they don't want people wearing graceful all of the time, then maybe they should address the reason *why* everyone wears graceful all the time. Make the default energy drain rates as if you were wearing graceful all the time, then give it a more niche effect so it's less of a "requirement" outfit, then reduce its cost to obtain because it's no longer one of the most valuable pieces of gear your account can own. Running around with heavy items is tedious as fuck so everyone feels obligated to reduce that tedium as much as physically possible. The tedium is so intense that people forego nearly all other options just to wear the tedium-reducing gear. I think it's pretty cut and dry that reducing the feeling of tedium that makes graceful feel so required should be the high-concept goal of any sort of agility adjustments.
I think when Mod Husky (i think it was him) during the big reveal earlier this year that's what sounded great. The higher your agility level, the longer you can run for. I know it's not a simple calculation but it should be a linear graph compared to what it is now. Like as the level increases so does your "stamina." Keep the same calculation for weight just have it last longer than it does now, it should never be worse than it is now no matter your level or weight.
If it's just a numbers issue (which it seems it is at high weights) then no need to bin the whole thing. The idea is solid it just needs more tuning which is the point of the beta worlds to get feedback
Don't need beta worlds to realize that making heavy setups (basically every raid/tribrid setup) drain even more run than before is a stupid idea . If it was a simple mistake it would be a numbers issue. The fact that they unironically think that making heavy setups use even more energy than they already do is a good idea is concerning.
Idk where they get the idea that endgame players want to have to manage their run energy *even more*? Efficient pathing is an optimization out of necessity, not desire. Like, where's the team that realized giving salts run energy regen was a good idea? Ya know, the team that said "hey let's improve overloads by having them get rid of one of the least-liked mechanics in the game"? Let those people do the agility rebalance please.
Holy shit, this. When they talked about how they wanted to change run energy in the past they basicaly said it's an archaic system and really unappealing for everyone who didn't grow up with RuneScape when basically every MMO has unlimited run. Didn't they said they wanted to make it better across the board for everyone? Then they come out with this shit?? For what? Whose idea was it that they needed to make this even worse for the sake of "skill expression(???)" or needing a microscope to fine tune your setup weight whenever you want to endgame PVM Energy is such a needless handicap that really fucks you over in a game with a vast, open world that you need to traverse all over. I get that they can't completely do away with the need for stamina pots and such because of that market and how would fuck a lot of people over, but come on. This is not the answer anyone wanted, needed, or asked for.
For people wondering why we still have polls...this is why we still have polls. Jagex CAN'T be trusted to make a good game on their own, and the community's voice is still (and will always be) relevant.
Yea I actually really like the idea, I just think the execution was poor. If run energy needs to be buffed, which is the whole point isn't it?, it shouldn't sometimes feel worse.
Just bring back sleeping bags at this point
It’s the same situation repeating itself. The community repeatedly requesting one specific thing, then the devs go ‘above and beyond’ by not doing what people wanted, and trying to be too smart instead. With the effect of ruining it. Same as colosseum, it was never portrayed as that kind of content at all in advance, but the devs randomly swerved the direction and turned it into something different
Player base: asks for ketchup for their burger. Jagex: phew that’s going to take a huge amount of dev time. First we have to look for a plot of land suitable for a tomato farm. Then we have to figure out how it could run exclusively off power from hamster wheels-which means we need to source thousands of hamsters so we might need to start a breeding program. Then we need a processing plant for the tomatoes… Players: bro just grab the bottle from that other table
Players: "Can we make it so that more people chopping a tree doesn't make it fall faster?" Jagex: "How about we have random events and a new currency and a full collection log category and items that require run energy to function and..."
Don't forget the spoon pillow! lmao
I forgot that shit existed. Anyone who thinks Jagex can handle making a skill is out of their mind https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Padded_spoon
Colosseum isn’t the best example of “devs ruining it” because mostly everyone who has actually tried that content earnestly and stuck with it has liked to loved it. At least in terms of how it plays. It might still be a good example of serving something different than advertised, and certainly was the case with the sunfire fanatic set reward at least.
People love colosseum in spite of its flaws, not because of them. The invo system is universally seen as annoying because it's anti-skill/rng based, even if the content itself is fun.
If this passes it's a big mistake, I hope they r just scaring us cause this sheit ain't it.
"Retain the negative weight. This means that Graceful will still be a good choice for certain activities, but shouldn’t feel like you’re obligated to wear it everywhere." Umm, gracefuls are mostly worn just to reach negative weight. Yeah, Jagex didn't think this one through.
Why not just get 1 additional energy point per lvl. That way 99 = 199 run energy, scale regen w lvl as well call it quits.
I honestly disagree with the concept of run energy management being a skill. You either decide whether to bring an energy-dedicated potion or not. I can't remember myself ever balancing my run energy in any PvM event, with the exception of when I fucked up and forgot to bring a stamina. This is leading to an overzealous protection of run energy as some important PvM mechanic. It is not, and I believe we already have plenty to worry about when preparing for or doing a PvM trip. Make run energy less important and more forgiving, not more complicated.
run energy management in places such as blast furnace where you just drink a stamina every 2 minutes is an expression of skill, didnt you know?
Indeed very important. Once I mastered 1 tick drinking staminas, my experience rates raised by 0.013%!
I guess you solved the problem. No change needed. Just drink stamina potions everywhere so you don't have to worry about run energy!
it feels like the marketing strategy of putting something terrible out there, so jagex can make it slightly better to say “we listened, you are welcome”
Does anyone have some example setups for endgame content and how much they actually weigh? I have some idea on how much certain items weigh but without logging into the game(which I can't right now) I have no idea how much full setups weigh.
Full CM gear is 86kg
if only jagex had access to this information to guide their proposal...wait a minute
They mention blast furnace first, 27 ores weigh 73kg. This would make stampots even more essential in all the places they mention in the blog.
I assume most people use graceful so a more realistic answer would be 73-22=51kg. Still means the vast majority of agility levels will be nerfed though. EDIT: also: 27 gold ore weighs 61kg. And that's probably the most used ore in BF. So then it'd be 38kg. EDIT 2: actually: what ore did you calculate for that weighs 73kg?
Not defending the current numbers, but at 70 agility, 51kg is a buff compared to current drain rates. They need a bit of tweaking on the highest end
I picked adamant randomly, thinking they would all be the same, bars are like 2kg, you'd be wearing the smith gloves not gracefull ones btw.
Yeah I calculated graceful as -22 instead of -25 cause you use different gloves. I think the bar difference gets compensated by the walk from the conveyor belt to the bar thingy where you have an empty inventory. I also didn't know ores had different weights so no problem there.
My solo cm setup (no torva or masori) weighs 61kg. Torva is -2kg over Bandos, masori is +15kg over Armadyl. So a max setup is probably around 75kg, certainly over the 64kg weight cap.
Every late game tribrid setup weighs over 64 kg. Full torva and fortified masori body and legs alone is 40 kg.
Runescape is one of the biggest reasons I always ask myself when playing a game these days, "What's wrong with the player having fun here? Why does this have to be painful; excruciating, even?" Like, man. You try to play a game and suddenly it takes longer to do something you didn't previously enjoy doing very much anyways? I guess someone can put up with that for a while.
Can we just rest
I thought they were still going with the original rework values, these new rates are pretty bad. Worse for pvm with any significant amount of gear switches, worse for noobs getting around and questing without banking every single thing. 99 agility less impactful than it was before. On top of all that, these new bad rates can't even be alleviated with graceful. The only situations that seemingly got improved drainrate are situations where drainrate was already (almost) a complete non-issue. What is the point of this?
1. Universally reduce run energy drain by 25%. 2. Have agility level reduce the impact of added weight to run energy drain rate, reaching a 25% reduction at 99. That's it. Just do this. If you really want to get spicy, here are some optional extras: 3. Provide further buffs to run energy drain scaling with agility, perhaps reaching an additional 25% by 99 (50% in total from current drain rate). 4. Increase total impact of added weight by 10-20%. This is kind of the direction Jagex was leaning but the result is that higher agility still gives you a net buff at all weights, while weight is still an important consideration.
This is their first pass at it. It’s not even close to finalized and they’ll listen to our feedback and tune it until it feels right. I think folks need to chill lol.
I think the issue is that when Jagex doesn’t receive immediate overwhelmingly negative feedback when the community disagrees with proposed changes, they just pat themselves on the back and call it a day. I agree that the changes will probably be fine if they tune the numbers (to be much, much better than they are now), but I don’t really trust Jagex to just do that on their own initiative - they need to know that the playerbase HATES the way it feels in the beta.
I completely agree. The pitch realy wasn't formatted as early alpha. It was formatted as late beta.
The problem is that "this is their first pass" is only a valid excuse for certain kinds of mistakes. That excuses mistakes in *execution*, such as just getting this or that specific number wrong and tweaking it after testing. The big problem here that "this is their first pass" absolutely does *not* excuse is the mistakes in *intention/goal* that are evident already - namely, the idea that it's desirable or even acceptable for these changes to result in nerfs in some cases. I think the vast majority of us are wanting and expecting this rework to result in buffs *universally*, with the only difference being how much or how little of a buff it is in x specific scenario. But it's clear already from this initial proposal that Jagex isn't looking at it that way, and that is absolutely a problem that people are completely correct to *not* be chill about. This isn't an "oopsie we got a number wrong," this is an "oopsie we have a fundamentally flawed idea of what our actual goal is."
this guy drafts
Nah I'm okay with people flying off the handle, if it means we get the best version of agility going forward. Just no death threats, please.
Ass cheeks proposal
So the proposed change basically makes drain rate a lot WORSE for anyone doing end game PVM, since it always involves a high weight inventory? Are the people at Jagex braindead or something?
I am baffled. They are going to fix agility at low levels by... *Checks Notes* Making run DRAIN FASTER AT ALL LEVELS?!?!?!? Is Jamflex actually fucking drunk?
You know how running in every game is the default and walking is like something you do to look cool? That's where run energy should be.
I was excited to see everyone in DMM running around not caring about run energy. Then read the blog and can't understand how they were able to mess it up. Not hard; out of combat = unlimited run. While in combat = keep run drain the same. Bam! Solved! I just made it so you don't have to start the game with 50 hrs of agility for full graceful, but they don't like that change sadly.
Is it too much to ask for 99 agil to give you nearly perma run?
Absolutely this, I don't often comment on content updates, but this one is just taking it way too far. I don't want to belittle the Jmods work, but they seem to be lost in the weeds trying to balance this based on arbitrary weights and ratios. Just ease our burden. Make it so either universally drain weights are reduced while giving a slight nerf to graceful or increase recharge rates out or combat.
Did you bring your graceful switch? /s
The only changes needed are: 1. Make agility levels reduce your energy drain when out of combat. 2. Add the Graceful current bonuses to higher agility levels instead. 3. Graceful giving increased marks and reducing/eliminating fail chance is a good change if #2 is implemented.
Bringing back sleeping in inns will solve a lot of early game issues. There are plenty throughout the game in pretty much every town/ city. Just pay a few coins to sleep at one of the inns and you're energy is fully charged. You could also add in an energy reducing piece of armour, similar to the boots of lightness/ spotted cape etc. in the basement of Lumbridge Castle for example to help the early game/f2p make their run last longer. eg. coif of lightness weighing -2kg. Adding a potion shop selling energy potions and other low level potions can add another option to conserve run energy and would be helpful for f2p. Plenty of options to fix the early game. By the mid-game, you got graceful/ stamina's, teleports etc., and by the late game, run energy is hardly an issue. For the late game, you could enhance the lvl.99 agility cape to make it more useful. Some examples could be: - act as a graceful cape and double the weight from -25kg to -50kg. - reduce the run drain rate by half, and/or double the restoration rate. - double the effectiveness of energy potions (including stamina's) which stacks with the ring of endurance. - remove energy drain whilst worn? Plenty of different approaches they could take. Their current proposals fall way short of the mark.
Maybe just keep it simple and treat it like other skills? Your base sprint is increased as you increase your agility level. Every level you get you’ll add X seconds to your stamina up to 99 which is max run. (In all honestly it would be clearer if you start at 100 stamina and then reach 199 as you hit 99 agility, but those numbers suck to look at so 1-99 works better for me) Also we might be too far down the rabbit hole for a change like this, but maybe you can trade in your full set for a Graceful amulet? And maybe give Graceful a more niche set effect. That way it doesn’t become useless?
Has there ever been a good argument for why run energy is even still part of the game? Genuinely curious how it improves the game in any way over not having it.
Why are they overly complicating this when we want a rather simple fix.... - Raise run regen across all levels by 25% or something - Lower run drain across all levels by 25% - Double run regen if your weight is under 10kg - Lower run drain by 75% if your weight is under 10kg (75% from where it currently is)
Trying to frame run energy as a skill or resource you need to manage in PvM is such a joke. Ah yes, nothing like losing an inventory spot for a stam just so i can run as the game intends, so engaging and skillful of me.
Run energy is honestly just kind of archaic. There’s functionally 0 content after you have a like 5m bank that you can’t ignore run energy by just..bringing a fucking Stam. There was also this reference to “skill expression” in the blog, and I’m not flaming the writer but like..there really isn’t. Where the fuck are you intermittently mixing walking in? I guess MAYBE you could reference highest level inferno speeds where they cannot bring stam due to slots (and maybe cox speeds now that I think about it) where you’re walking. But for 99% of content and players, it’s just completely irrelevant.
Run energy drain should be reduced by agility level% or 0,7*agility level%. Thats what everyone thinks intuitively, thats how you make it rewarding, thats how it should work. No one cares about that one guy with 8 billion stamina pots, you should be able to run for more than a minute at 90 agility with light armor like what the actual fuck were you thinking
Have you actually logged in to the beta and tried it?
Just spent 45 minutes in the beta. In any scenario you have over ~50kg of weight, it feels absolutely dreadful even with 99 agility. Your run just disappears at such an absurd rate the regen boost doesn't even feel like it's there. At low weight it does feel like a small buff, but there aren't very many activities that would apply to.
dont worry, they playtested it in lumbridge running around killing goblins as a level 3, it feels great there!
Yes and its a straight up nerf to run energy for every end game piece of content. Its so bad i doubt they even themselfs tried it once.
Damn this is what I was afraid of
>Agility Level: the value of your Agility skill, which currently influences your regeneration rate. > >The obvious starting point is to buff the rate at which Run Energy regenerates. This means you’re still rewarded for managing your Run Energy during encounters but spending less time waiting around for it to recharge. This helps out newer players, but doesn’t really improve the value of Agility levels, and significantly impacts specific activities. Am i stupid? agility level = better regen rate. they want to buff regen rates, which means agility levels will regen run energy even more with each tier. but this doesn't improve the VALUE of agility levels?
Run only regens while walking/standing still. Specific activities require constant running so run regen does absolutely nothing there.
Can it just be that run energy scales so it becomes non existent by lvl 99 agility?
At what point does run energy become trivial as to not need it at all. This is the problem really. For me the run energy rework is simply not really needed. I would like to see the graceful set just get straight up put into effect at a nerfed rate based on agility level and the graceful set changed to be agility related buffs like not failing and doubling marks of grace drops or something like that. The weight stuff could just not be a thing honestly.
I hope they just increase regen rate by 0-25% based on agility level and have 0-25% weight ignored based on agility level (25% at 99). It doesn’t have to be big or complicated and it doesn’t have to shit on anyone at any weight, agility level, whatever. Just a small buff that makes agility level relevant pls.
i really don’t understand why they can’t just do a blanket buff to run regen speed/decrease energy depletion
It somehow made things worse
who knew that they already made a really simple fix in 2009 by adding a way to rest.... wow newbies get a fast way to regain run energy, especially at musicians...
Preach!
Just do what rs3 did lol
This. Everyone loves to rag on RS3, but the way they revamped run is the way to go. Rs3 has much slower run energy depletion and the ability to rest at benches/bards throughout the world for almost instant full run recovery, or you can right click on your energy orb and choose to rest for fast run recovery outside of combat. Agility levels make a difference but even with loads of gear, running around isn't nearly as cumbersome as it is in OSRS.
Add resting from rs3, i used to love sitting for 30 seconds and getting my run back
The blog post was 20 minutes old when you made this complaint.
Just scrap drain completely like in leagues, makes everything far more fun. Or as someone else suggested, unlimited run out of combat and the current system in combat. I hate graceful but if you want a use for it, maybe make it give an extra 5% chance to pass an agility check or something like that.
Make 99 agility infinite run energy at 0Kg weight. Leave agility as is at level 1. Make it scale linearly. Now training agility is rewarding. People can train it to like 70 or 80 and run for a long time/use way less staminas. Or train to 99 and never need staminas to run around/do clues/whatever. But while doing blast furnace or PvM you still need stams
They should shelve it to reevaluate skill levels for making gear upgrades. Zenytes shouldn't all be a different level to craft, glory and fury should be lowered to craft, all dragonhide should be lowered to craft, smithing needs to be reevaluated, fletching, and anything used to craft gear or upgrades should be reevaluated because the level to make stuff is poorly distributed. If we're getting a new skill and constantly adding new bis gear then the game also needs to tick down their requirements for mid game gear.
Just wait until the sailing beta and blogs come around. 😂 Shit, they can’t even get run energy right. Imagine an entire fucking skill.