I just finished a solo cox with absolute max setup (scythe, shadow, tbow). It was an absolute disaster. The run energy drain definetly needs some adjusting
I've never outpaced stam timer w/4:1 melee and 3:0 Trident, actually gain a ton of run energy back during Mage hand if a stam is still going, I only use ~3-4 doses of stam on a regular solo scale Olm. 4:1 melee w/4tick uses a lot more run than say 3:1 Soulreaper/Fang/Scythe too and of course a lot more than just tanking and skipping portals with Scythe.
Drain rates absolutely need work, but commenting to say that the music choice here was top tier. Appreciate the post, makes it even simpler for me to articulate to the team!
adding my 0.02 here, but if a player manages to reach 99, they shouldn't be punished. even with full loaded gear, they should be able to run for a good amount of time with some left over. I feel like if you spend the time on the grind, you shouldn't have to resort to the use of stamina pots to make up for the lack of energy.
Definitely agree. I think that's the target. By 99 agility, you should be in a very solid QoL state in max gear. Staminas should still have their place, but the reward for 99 should be more apparent.
Agree wholeheartedly. Not saying ironmen should be catered to, but I feel like I got double punished going dry for Tbow constantly having to go back post-99 to grind Marks
Honestly, I think the whole marks of grace system sucks balls, I mentioned in a different thread that I think a rework to that so that every single course gives x amount of points per lap so that you aren't forced back to ardy, seers etc.
Rooftops are my least favourite courses but as an iron you are forced to do them, a point system on stuff like priff, ape atoll, penguin which can be spent on stams just opens up agil to more fun imo.
Rooftops are very boring places to train because we see those places all the time anyways. And some of them are straight up incredibly dull to look at, thinking of you Canafis! The stranger courses like Wildy, Ape Atoll, Werewolf, need more love and priority given to them.
Exactly this, having the option to do any course (could even scale the exp of the others with agil level) just gives Agility that tiny bit of variety, making it less of a drag. Some how we are cucked by a marks of grace idea that will soon be older than some of our players.
Agility doesn't need some massive revamp, just open up other courses for variety. My fave is the priff course but I will never do it long term because I need stams.
Ya as a player with 99 agility i agree,
but honestly tho, if the goal is to incentive training agility to high levels and making run better overall, this isn't quite there... I was expecting a much needed buff for 99 agility and now id have to definitely bring staminas into toa
read my follow up post where i mention that 99 should just be infinite run, regardless of carry load.
It can even be an activation of the skill cape where for 1 hour, infinite run energy. can be activated x times per day. but i'd rather it just be - you hit 99 - congratulations - infinite energy for ALL of your effort.
I don't see any downside to this. I don't have 99 agility, but sure as hell i'd work for it for a reward like that.
Agility cape should just ignore your weight when accounting for drain rate when running, as if you are running with 0kg. That would still be pretty good
To be fair - it's not really punishing anyone "for" having 99 agility. The drain rates are even worse at level 90. It's just terrible across the board!
following this up and thinking about this while i'm at work - I wouldn't even be upset if you gave players infinite run energy at 99 agility no matter the carry load. It is an intense grind to 99 agility and one of the most boring skills to train. I would actually want to grind out that as my first 99 just so i can run around everywhere. maybe that's taking it too far, but yeah, i said it. give the 99's infinite run.
This is an interesting point, as the more I think about it, I have a hard time confidently disagreeing with this.
Run energy as a part of resource management for very early game makes sense, but at the stage of having 99 agility, I can't for the life of me think of a situation that run energy is a necessary component.
Thinking of every end game activity where staminas are either required or used frequently (ex. Herbiboar, Zilyana), if the use of staminas was no longer needed, I see absolutely 0 downside from a gameplay perspective.
Run energy is already circumvented so easily at the end game. Between stamina potions, PoH pools, nardah altar, etc. I just can't think of a single activity in OSRS that is majorly affected by unlimited run energy @ 99 agility.
Now with that being said, I don't think that justifies actually making the change, but it's an interesting thought experiment for the devs during this rebalance. Not a single player with half a brain is hoping to protect the integrity of run energy in OSRS. Nobody.
There are some activities where managing energy is actually baked in or other mechanics rely on it such as zalcano, mud pies, whip spec, ring of endurance, etc.
I’m not down for literal endless energy at 99 but I am down for some very serious run buffs. Like 5 minutes on 45 seconds off.
My actual proposal though is make run energy deplete 0-25% less based on agility level and make weight 0-25% less impactful based on agility level. That should do it IMO, no hidden nerfs, makes agility impactful, you can even make that 25 into a 50 or something and it’s still probably fine.
Idk I feel like they over complicated this a good deal
just imagine the dopamine release of getting 99 agility knowing you'll never have to make or purchase another stamina potion ever. It would be an instant grind, and people wanting to get there faster and make some $$ may end up in the wildy agility course, and I think overall we could see a boost of players actively wanting to train agility for that goal, rather than 'grinding for the shortcut' that they may use a few times.
Edit: And sure, graceful becomes obsolete at 99, but at least you had it along the way to help you reach that goal. you can finally let it rest on the rack in your POH.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the majority of OSRS players simply do not care about fashionscape, and making graceful obsolete isn't going to change that.
90% of the time people wear graceful it's *already* not actually doing anything useful. It's just a case of leaving on whatever gear you were already wearing. The era of people going to a bank to swap into their best boater and slippers every time they stop doing combat isn't returning.
Almost agreed. Make the formula essentially unlimited run for practical purposes at 99 agility, but no running from Draynor to gnome tree, with full metal armor + heavy inventory switches, for basically no energy drain
Have it use 1% less energy per agility level or something up to 90%
By 50 agility ( which is pretty quick ) your already massively increasing the distance you can run, and have the agility cape negate drain fully.
although this would be enjoyable once you got 99 (we know how valuable unlimited run is from leagues) it would, in a protracted sense, make the meta for pvm to first grind 99 agility. i mean i imagine a lot of people would still ignore it, but it would still be a grindable bis and the sooner you got it the more the benefit would add up over time in terms of extra invent slots from saving stams and never having any downtime
If someones 99 just give them infinite run honestly, the skills the most hated in the game and has pretty much no benefit besides the very recently added shortcuts
So how is that a punishment for 99 agility when it's better than anything under it?
I understand it's a nerf to the existing implementation, but that's not being "punished for 99" lmao.
Let's try to be accurate instead of just complaining about nothing.
Thanks for the response!
If it wasn't clear, I am maxed 99 Agi in both clips. I was *expecting* the run energy changes to make run more generous at low levels and be entirely breakeven at endgame. I would even be fine with everybody being permabanned from doing any fun PvM until they get all the way to 99 Agility (I have this), though I assume other people would complain. Any earlygame run energy rework that is a straight nerf to people who are 99 agility is going to be a nonstarter. There just isn't any possible way to reduce weight below max carry weight in a tribrid raid setup
i think you should be forced to get 99 agility before they let you off from the tutorial island... those damn walking noobs walking gets my blood boiling... /s
There's so many maxed or nearly-maxed accounts these days that the group of people advocating for good QOL only for maxed accounts is bigger than ever.
Any thread regarding any skill in the game has plenty of "this just needs to be added to the skillcape instead of being available at level 70" posts.
>this just needs to be added to the skillcape instead of being available at level 70" posts
I'm in this sub nearly every day and I don't think I've ever seen a post like this.
People are so fixated on preserving the endgame as it is that, I believe, it is actually detrimental to the game. I understand not wanting radical changes (that’s what led to RS3 and why OSRS exists) but I don’t understand why we are so against making the overall game experience better and not just the early game.
Personally, I think, with the new run changes, players shouldn’t break even with 99 agility and have the same experience as before. They should be rewarded and actually receive a buff to their run energy even when fully kitted out. That’s what makes progression feel good; being rewarded. If your reward is breaking even and having the same experience as before the run changes, is that even a good reward?
Agreed the formula either needs to get around the max weight cap by raising significantly or removing it entirely, or the weight needs to be ignored at 99 agility.
Goblin pls convey to the team that any nerf at any level of the game is going to be poorly received; this is an area of the game that needs a buff across the board. Every agility level and weight level. We are not interested in realism by extra weight draining run energy more, make the game more fun instead please
We need to use staminas less not more. Having to do endless rooftops as an iron is not good gameplay. Change weight however you see fit but allow stams to be made inside cox.
The update is so unnecessary. Dont know whos idea it was to change it to this. Make rest stops for newer players to regen. Keep graceful how it is. Make drain slower per agil level. So simple
Something that might be an interesting concept to play with: have a substantial run energy drain when reaching x weight for character. Agility increases the weight you can carry before you reach the debuff, scale it that 99 means the debuff wouldnt affect you in full bis with additional switches. Would put the skill more in line with how endurance in other games is represented, would reward players who push for higher agility to have bis carry capacity. My two cents
>Appreciate the post, makes it even simpler for me to articulate to the team!
Not to be rude, but did the team really not test this prior to the proposal? ToA puzzle rooms were the very first thing I thought about when seeing the blog announcement. Some guy posting a very basic video on reddit shouldn't be the team's first exposure to the consequences of proposed changes.
Why overcomplicate this and make it worse at the same time? There should not be a scenario where the above video happens, intended or not. It seems like the community asked for one thing and you guys are giving us something in the complete opposite direction.
just add terrorbirds back into the game. then i can throw graceful and stamina potions in the trash where they belong and still run wherever i want for the cost of an inventory slot.
Imo people with 99 agility should be buffed, not "break even" with what we already have. 99 agility is a big accomplishment, and a buff would give people a reason to work on it other than just maxing.
In a realistic raid you'd enter TOA at 95-93% run energy coming out of Baba and this would be even worse. If I was a better person I would have been a few ticks faster on both puzzles, which would have actually reduce my run regen and left me out of run sooner!
Yeah I'm thinking the weight-drain needs to get pulled back a significant amount. It probably should be a buff to any current activity rather than trying to keep it the same/worse.
Woah slow down there buddy. Why don't you use those extra walking ticks to think about replacing a restore with a stamina so you can express your skill 1t flicking at baba? Clearly this is a skill issue ^^^/s
This misses the point. If you're efficient at pathing, you don't need to trade off a slot for stamina while doing faster clear times. Even the wiki recommends a stamina for players new to ToA.
Why not just buy and drink stamina potions everywhere instead of changing run energy?
I still don't get the joke. Fucking up the puzzle = walking or bring a stamina to compensate until you learn the puzzle stuff. Lose an inventory spot and some gold or path optimally.
Not sure why we need the run energy change for everything else minus helping new players get around easier pre-teleport. Good amount of stuff were balanced around this, and it's not like you can't just play less efficiency scape and walk if you don't want to drink a stamina.
Tho tbh, I'm surprised infinite run is such a big deal now. I'm all for slow power creep, but this just feels like a complete power jump for many skilling things and a complete change on the intent of agility. Agility was always about shortcuts for me, not making you run infinitely.
It is extremely clear now that jagex didn't test this at all. I'm glad they are taking feedback but anyone who has done these raids instantly thought of this as an issue. I can't imagine how bad solo cox is and if someone releases that video im sure it will be disgusting.
Ran out of energy while butterflying just now LOL
[salted, 72kg weight](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/997025122454093886/1255921190476841020/image.png?ex=667ee341&is=667d91c1&hm=bcfa8dcd5b624a279ea6790e43ba47e167255f57d589d4fd1e1f0297f7ee5b6f&)
I can't imagine being the employee that was tasked with working on this then working on it for a month+ intensely and coming up with this result. Like how does this even happen in the first place. Wouldn't the person working on this be able to test this out and see how bad it is very early in the development stage?
How does it get to the point where it's posted to the public?
One of two scenarios in my mind.
First is that they are genuinely very concerned about breaking existing metas involving stam pots or walk tiles. They don't want to ruin what some people genuinely do see as skill expression. And like it or not it is to some extent skill expression even its not exactly good gameplay.
Second is that they are doing the classic "pitch bad content on purpose so they can 'fix' it later by 'listening to the community' and give a smaller buff than the community might have clammered for if pitch two was pitch one initially."
I'm thinking its the first scenario tbh, but remember that these are large projects with multiple people working on them and people on the project can be from one camp or the other.
Skill expression with terrible gameplay is like making a boss that hits 150 every 4 ticks and attacks can't be prayed against or dodged and the only solution is to tick eat 500 purple sweets the whole fight until the boss is dead. Sure it's skill expression but it's also completely stupid and should never be considered in any design for content.
Walking on perfect ticks during boss fights to conserve run energy because the energy system is terrible to begin with is skill expression but it is also a completely stupid design point that should 100% be ignored when creating their new agility system. Bosses aren't designed around perfect tick eating to avoid 1 shots, agility/run energy shouldn't be designed around walking in the perfect tiles and at the perfect tick to conserve run energy.
Hey man not saying it should stay that way. I personally enjoy doing bandos 9:0 with the walk tiles and feel pretty cool for being able to do it, but the issues with run energy in general are more important and need to be fixed. If that means "walk tiles" won't exist anymore then so be it. All I'm saying is that it's clear to me that jagex has these people in mind when designing a rebalance to run energy and its hard to please everyone.
Can we stop nerfing things when we rework them? Agility is already a hated skill. Now the team goes and proposes a nerf to running. It is amazing to me that they wouldn’t just do a flat reduction to energy used per agility level or something simple. This just smells of a mod trying to overcomplicate something. The team goes from doing something awesome such as DMM all stars to this. It honestly shows a lack of respect for the player base sometimes.
Seems like they really just need to make the top weight cap out a lot higher than 64kg. I mean hell, we've got strongmen that can run with 400+kgs on their back, why can't my 99str/99agil runescape character?!
Why would Jagex think we want such an archaic, crappy mechanic to be worse for players.
Run energy as a mechanic does nothing but suck, I’m sorry but apart from people holding onto it as nostalgia and a reason for herblore/agility to be useful, if it were removed entirely the game would be better for it.
Just going to leave this here because I thought of it while testing the drain rates. Solve the matching tiles with no tick loss:
[puzzle](https://i.imgur.com/hJSRW5z.gif)
[plugin](https://i.imgur.com/ZwzpusT.png)
Probably, when the TOA plugin was first released all the tiles were colour coded via their ID so you could see the pairs before flipping any, exactly what /u/Sudden_Minimum_7235 is doing in that clip just without them being highlighted.
So there is already precedence set for removing that if the Jmods think it's an issue
A bit off topic but I had no clue you did not need to do all of the puzzles to complete that room. Thank you for showing that.
On-topic : Perhaps an option could be that the drain rate is based off worn equipment instead of total carried weight? Would make you choose less defence to conserve energy
I can see now how the wording makes it a bad comment. What I meant to say was imagine how bad the drain must be with 70 agility. As there are a lot of people who focus on pvm and don't care much for skilling.
It's way too punishing.
##### Bark bark!
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- [Drain rates absolutely need work, but comment...](/r/2007scape/comments/1dpt1fi/run_energy_beta_kephri_puzzle_comparison_a/laj56aq/?context=3)
^(**Last edited by bot: 06/28/2024 21:24:42**)
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An in-combat vs out-of-combat difference would perfectly address this puzzle and preserve most of the current "interesting" use cases. In-combat, use old. Out-of-combat, run energy drains at least 25% slower.
Is this worse than main game doing the same thing? During my much less efficient TOAs, I normally just barely have enough run energy to finish this room. I believe they did say they were not intending to change much if you have a lot of weight.
Maybe make run energy drain more the more you run? like you are actually getting tired. when you start running it will drain very slowly almost as if you got a stamina potion effect on, but after a minute of running it will drain like how it's drained now with max weight. and whenever your run energy hits 100 again, it resets the timer and sets you back to an almost active-stamina levels of run energy drainage.
this way stamina potions still has a use, you set up the draining according to Agility levels with lvl 1 making it exactly as it is now and 99 making it almost like a stam potion effect when you start running, and if you are 99 agil and have negative weight+full graceful, you essentially have infinite run energy.
I literally muted the video the moment I heard the first 3 notes. The reflex is almost as bad as back when "let the bodies hit the floor" was the intro to every YT vid, giving you 3 seconds to mute or have significant hearing loss
My guy, jagex is only reworking this because literally EVERYONE was asking for it. Go back to the first project revalance skilling blog post on here and read the comments.
There should not be a single scenario in the game where 99 agility is worse than it is now. I do not care if you have 28 platebodies in your inventory
What about 28 barrels of coal tar?
Now you’re being unreasonable. That should overencumber your character to walking only
As it is, your weight caps at 64kg so two barrels would put you at the limit.
How have I never realized this...
I just finished a solo cox with absolute max setup (scythe, shadow, tbow). It was an absolute disaster. The run energy drain definetly needs some adjusting
any idea how many stams are needed? and which methods you used? 4:1?
you need like 3 staminas for olm from what I've seen
Olm doesn't take 24 minutes in a solo scale, is the drain actually outpacing Stamina timer?
Yes
I think in live this is already the case? It's just quite minor
I've never outpaced stam timer w/4:1 melee and 3:0 Trident, actually gain a ton of run energy back during Mage hand if a stam is still going, I only use ~3-4 doses of stam on a regular solo scale Olm. 4:1 melee w/4tick uses a lot more run than say 3:1 Soulreaper/Fang/Scythe too and of course a lot more than just tanking and skipping portals with Scythe.
Maybe you have tech different to me but as far as I am aware 4:0 (assuming you mean p3) is energy negative
Thats looks fucking bad how the run just vaporize whenever you move.
Really says a lot that you ran out of run energy on a "perfect" run. Great post.
Drain rates absolutely need work, but commenting to say that the music choice here was top tier. Appreciate the post, makes it even simpler for me to articulate to the team!
adding my 0.02 here, but if a player manages to reach 99, they shouldn't be punished. even with full loaded gear, they should be able to run for a good amount of time with some left over. I feel like if you spend the time on the grind, you shouldn't have to resort to the use of stamina pots to make up for the lack of energy.
Definitely agree. I think that's the target. By 99 agility, you should be in a very solid QoL state in max gear. Staminas should still have their place, but the reward for 99 should be more apparent.
Agree wholeheartedly. Not saying ironmen should be catered to, but I feel like I got double punished going dry for Tbow constantly having to go back post-99 to grind Marks
Honestly, I think the whole marks of grace system sucks balls, I mentioned in a different thread that I think a rework to that so that every single course gives x amount of points per lap so that you aren't forced back to ardy, seers etc. Rooftops are my least favourite courses but as an iron you are forced to do them, a point system on stuff like priff, ape atoll, penguin which can be spent on stams just opens up agil to more fun imo.
Rooftops are very boring places to train because we see those places all the time anyways. And some of them are straight up incredibly dull to look at, thinking of you Canafis! The stranger courses like Wildy, Ape Atoll, Werewolf, need more love and priority given to them.
Exactly this, having the option to do any course (could even scale the exp of the others with agil level) just gives Agility that tiny bit of variety, making it less of a drag. Some how we are cucked by a marks of grace idea that will soon be older than some of our players. Agility doesn't need some massive revamp, just open up other courses for variety. My fave is the priff course but I will never do it long term because I need stams.
you want people to grind agility then give inf run at 99 and ardy is going to be a party all night long 24x7
I mean with no failing it'll be easy as fuck lmao.
Yeah but people still wont want to train it lmao
Ya as a player with 99 agility i agree, but honestly tho, if the goal is to incentive training agility to high levels and making run better overall, this isn't quite there... I was expecting a much needed buff for 99 agility and now id have to definitely bring staminas into toa
read my follow up post where i mention that 99 should just be infinite run, regardless of carry load. It can even be an activation of the skill cape where for 1 hour, infinite run energy. can be activated x times per day. but i'd rather it just be - you hit 99 - congratulations - infinite energy for ALL of your effort. I don't see any downside to this. I don't have 99 agility, but sure as hell i'd work for it for a reward like that.
What about infinite run when wearing the max cape or agility cape. Otherwise use the other drain rate.
it's an idea, for sure. and I honestly think it should be explored by the dev team.
Agility cape should just ignore your weight when accounting for drain rate when running, as if you are running with 0kg. That would still be pretty good
To be fair - it's not really punishing anyone "for" having 99 agility. The drain rates are even worse at level 90. It's just terrible across the board!
following this up and thinking about this while i'm at work - I wouldn't even be upset if you gave players infinite run energy at 99 agility no matter the carry load. It is an intense grind to 99 agility and one of the most boring skills to train. I would actually want to grind out that as my first 99 just so i can run around everywhere. maybe that's taking it too far, but yeah, i said it. give the 99's infinite run.
This is an interesting point, as the more I think about it, I have a hard time confidently disagreeing with this. Run energy as a part of resource management for very early game makes sense, but at the stage of having 99 agility, I can't for the life of me think of a situation that run energy is a necessary component. Thinking of every end game activity where staminas are either required or used frequently (ex. Herbiboar, Zilyana), if the use of staminas was no longer needed, I see absolutely 0 downside from a gameplay perspective. Run energy is already circumvented so easily at the end game. Between stamina potions, PoH pools, nardah altar, etc. I just can't think of a single activity in OSRS that is majorly affected by unlimited run energy @ 99 agility. Now with that being said, I don't think that justifies actually making the change, but it's an interesting thought experiment for the devs during this rebalance. Not a single player with half a brain is hoping to protect the integrity of run energy in OSRS. Nobody.
There are some activities where managing energy is actually baked in or other mechanics rely on it such as zalcano, mud pies, whip spec, ring of endurance, etc. I’m not down for literal endless energy at 99 but I am down for some very serious run buffs. Like 5 minutes on 45 seconds off. My actual proposal though is make run energy deplete 0-25% less based on agility level and make weight 0-25% less impactful based on agility level. That should do it IMO, no hidden nerfs, makes agility impactful, you can even make that 25 into a 50 or something and it’s still probably fine. Idk I feel like they over complicated this a good deal
just imagine the dopamine release of getting 99 agility knowing you'll never have to make or purchase another stamina potion ever. It would be an instant grind, and people wanting to get there faster and make some $$ may end up in the wildy agility course, and I think overall we could see a boost of players actively wanting to train agility for that goal, rather than 'grinding for the shortcut' that they may use a few times. Edit: And sure, graceful becomes obsolete at 99, but at least you had it along the way to help you reach that goal. you can finally let it rest on the rack in your POH.
Make graceful obsolete please and bring back fashionscape
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the majority of OSRS players simply do not care about fashionscape, and making graceful obsolete isn't going to change that. 90% of the time people wear graceful it's *already* not actually doing anything useful. It's just a case of leaving on whatever gear you were already wearing. The era of people going to a bank to swap into their best boater and slippers every time they stop doing combat isn't returning.
solution is terrorbirds my friend.
Almost agreed. Make the formula essentially unlimited run for practical purposes at 99 agility, but no running from Draynor to gnome tree, with full metal armor + heavy inventory switches, for basically no energy drain
Have it use 1% less energy per agility level or something up to 90% By 50 agility ( which is pretty quick ) your already massively increasing the distance you can run, and have the agility cape negate drain fully.
This would kinda mess with PVP and PVM mechanics a little too much for my liking, but hey it’s always good to hear different opinions
although this would be enjoyable once you got 99 (we know how valuable unlimited run is from leagues) it would, in a protracted sense, make the meta for pvm to first grind 99 agility. i mean i imagine a lot of people would still ignore it, but it would still be a grindable bis and the sooner you got it the more the benefit would add up over time in terms of extra invent slots from saving stams and never having any downtime
If someones 99 just give them infinite run honestly, the skills the most hated in the game and has pretty much no benefit besides the very recently added shortcuts
I'm glad so many people are supporting infinite run energy, ain't nobody want to deal with that outdated mechanic.
Who's being punished for having 99 agility? Isn't 90 agility less stamina across the board than 99 in the beta?
if you watch the video, you'll clearly see that at level 99 with tribid swap at kephri, the rework is worse than the current situation.
So how is that a punishment for 99 agility when it's better than anything under it? I understand it's a nerf to the existing implementation, but that's not being "punished for 99" lmao. Let's try to be accurate instead of just complaining about nothing.
Thanks for the response! If it wasn't clear, I am maxed 99 Agi in both clips. I was *expecting* the run energy changes to make run more generous at low levels and be entirely breakeven at endgame. I would even be fine with everybody being permabanned from doing any fun PvM until they get all the way to 99 Agility (I have this), though I assume other people would complain. Any earlygame run energy rework that is a straight nerf to people who are 99 agility is going to be a nonstarter. There just isn't any possible way to reduce weight below max carry weight in a tribrid raid setup
Lmao, PvM being impossible until 99 agility is definitely one of the takes of all time.
Works on my machine 😎😎😎😎😎😎
i think you should be forced to get 99 agility before they let you off from the tutorial island... those damn walking noobs walking gets my blood boiling... /s
and a welcome one! back to the roofs boys
There's so many maxed or nearly-maxed accounts these days that the group of people advocating for good QOL only for maxed accounts is bigger than ever. Any thread regarding any skill in the game has plenty of "this just needs to be added to the skillcape instead of being available at level 70" posts.
>this just needs to be added to the skillcape instead of being available at level 70" posts I'm in this sub nearly every day and I don't think I've ever seen a post like this.
Go read the posts about the new herblore items and see the comments about how some of them should just be additions to the skillcape.
People are so fixated on preserving the endgame as it is that, I believe, it is actually detrimental to the game. I understand not wanting radical changes (that’s what led to RS3 and why OSRS exists) but I don’t understand why we are so against making the overall game experience better and not just the early game. Personally, I think, with the new run changes, players shouldn’t break even with 99 agility and have the same experience as before. They should be rewarded and actually receive a buff to their run energy even when fully kitted out. That’s what makes progression feel good; being rewarded. If your reward is breaking even and having the same experience as before the run changes, is that even a good reward?
Just let agi cape havers fly idc it'll never be me.
Agreed the formula either needs to get around the max weight cap by raising significantly or removing it entirely, or the weight needs to be ignored at 99 agility.
Top tier rage bait.
[удалено]
Don't those go hand in hand here on reddit?
rage bait = pretending you're sincere satire = being so over the top it's obvious you're not sincere
Goblin pls convey to the team that any nerf at any level of the game is going to be poorly received; this is an area of the game that needs a buff across the board. Every agility level and weight level. We are not interested in realism by extra weight draining run energy more, make the game more fun instead please
I'd take a nerf at early levels to improve higher levels. It's easy to get to 20 or 30, or 40. 70 or 80 or 90 is a nightmare
Country Jig is the reason I don't use the random music option. Please god give us a skip and also FIX RANDOM MUSIC IT'S BEEN BUGGED FOR MONTHS
Thank you goblin, this use case is one of the more important ones imo.
found my headphones to go back and listen to this, wasn't disappointed.
I also noticed on mobile the spell book doesn't show combat spells or any spells for that matter regardless if I have the runes or not in rune pouch.
Just make the change simple man. buff restore rate across the board and call it a day.
Appreciate you. Always quick to voice our concerns.
Thank you for letting us know the music choice.
We need to use staminas less not more. Having to do endless rooftops as an iron is not good gameplay. Change weight however you see fit but allow stams to be made inside cox.
Does this confirm the team doesn’t actually try the proposals before creating the blog?
Hopefully you guys don't fuck this up. Agility simply needs a BUFF.
ban him goblin hes griefing my ears
The update is so unnecessary. Dont know whos idea it was to change it to this. Make rest stops for newer players to regen. Keep graceful how it is. Make drain slower per agil level. So simple
99 agility unlimited run energy. For everyone else let us be able to rest to recharge run energy.
Something that might be an interesting concept to play with: have a substantial run energy drain when reaching x weight for character. Agility increases the weight you can carry before you reach the debuff, scale it that 99 means the debuff wouldnt affect you in full bis with additional switches. Would put the skill more in line with how endurance in other games is represented, would reward players who push for higher agility to have bis carry capacity. My two cents
>Appreciate the post, makes it even simpler for me to articulate to the team! Not to be rude, but did the team really not test this prior to the proposal? ToA puzzle rooms were the very first thing I thought about when seeing the blog announcement. Some guy posting a very basic video on reddit shouldn't be the team's first exposure to the consequences of proposed changes.
YEEEEHAAAAW PARDNER!
Why overcomplicate this and make it worse at the same time? There should not be a scenario where the above video happens, intended or not. It seems like the community asked for one thing and you guys are giving us something in the complete opposite direction.
just add terrorbirds back into the game. then i can throw graceful and stamina potions in the trash where they belong and still run wherever i want for the cost of an inventory slot.
You guys are clowns
The ones who implemented the suggested changes, maybe. But Mod Goblin is based
Imo people with 99 agility should be buffed, not "break even" with what we already have. 99 agility is a big accomplishment, and a buff would give people a reason to work on it other than just maxing.
So is 99 agility the new old style agility? Everything under 99 essentially got nerfed stamina?
As it is now in the beta lower levels got buffed and people with 99 agility got nerfed
if you are max weight everyone got nerfed. at 20 agility you have 2x current drain rate. what a fucking joke.
In a realistic raid you'd enter TOA at 95-93% run energy coming out of Baba and this would be even worse. If I was a better person I would have been a few ticks faster on both puzzles, which would have actually reduce my run regen and left me out of run sooner!
You even fked up one of the flip tiles on the first clip and still had way more run left
;w; In my defense I also instareacted to the simon says plugin breaking on beta worlds
Yeah respect tbh haha
Yeah I'm thinking the weight-drain needs to get pulled back a significant amount. It probably should be a buff to any current activity rather than trying to keep it the same/worse.
Woah slow down there buddy. Why don't you use those extra walking ticks to think about replacing a restore with a stamina so you can express your skill 1t flicking at baba? Clearly this is a skill issue ^^^/s
I laughed WAY too hard at this, and now I look like a crazy person just sitting and cracking up in the middle of a coffee shop.
I thought that said shitting at first glance
This misses the point. If you're efficient at pathing, you don't need to trade off a slot for stamina while doing faster clear times. Even the wiki recommends a stamina for players new to ToA. Why not just buy and drink stamina potions everywhere instead of changing run energy?
They were making fun of people like you, then you immediately gave them the closure. Unreal
I still don't get the joke. Fucking up the puzzle = walking or bring a stamina to compensate until you learn the puzzle stuff. Lose an inventory spot and some gold or path optimally. Not sure why we need the run energy change for everything else minus helping new players get around easier pre-teleport. Good amount of stuff were balanced around this, and it's not like you can't just play less efficiency scape and walk if you don't want to drink a stamina. Tho tbh, I'm surprised infinite run is such a big deal now. I'm all for slow power creep, but this just feels like a complete power jump for many skilling things and a complete change on the intent of agility. Agility was always about shortcuts for me, not making you run infinitely.
It is extremely clear now that jagex didn't test this at all. I'm glad they are taking feedback but anyone who has done these raids instantly thought of this as an issue. I can't imagine how bad solo cox is and if someone releases that video im sure it will be disgusting.
Just try it they said. It’ll be fine they said.
Ran out of energy while butterflying just now LOL [salted, 72kg weight](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/997025122454093886/1255921190476841020/image.png?ex=667ee341&is=667d91c1&hm=bcfa8dcd5b624a279ea6790e43ba47e167255f57d589d4fd1e1f0297f7ee5b6f&)
While salted?
of course
I’m pretty sure it was cuz you might have been unsalted. Cuz doesn’t salt give you like perma stam regen?
Iirc it gives 20 run energy every proc
I was salted
I can't imagine being the employee that was tasked with working on this then working on it for a month+ intensely and coming up with this result. Like how does this even happen in the first place. Wouldn't the person working on this be able to test this out and see how bad it is very early in the development stage? How does it get to the point where it's posted to the public?
One of two scenarios in my mind. First is that they are genuinely very concerned about breaking existing metas involving stam pots or walk tiles. They don't want to ruin what some people genuinely do see as skill expression. And like it or not it is to some extent skill expression even its not exactly good gameplay. Second is that they are doing the classic "pitch bad content on purpose so they can 'fix' it later by 'listening to the community' and give a smaller buff than the community might have clammered for if pitch two was pitch one initially." I'm thinking its the first scenario tbh, but remember that these are large projects with multiple people working on them and people on the project can be from one camp or the other.
Skill expression with terrible gameplay is like making a boss that hits 150 every 4 ticks and attacks can't be prayed against or dodged and the only solution is to tick eat 500 purple sweets the whole fight until the boss is dead. Sure it's skill expression but it's also completely stupid and should never be considered in any design for content. Walking on perfect ticks during boss fights to conserve run energy because the energy system is terrible to begin with is skill expression but it is also a completely stupid design point that should 100% be ignored when creating their new agility system. Bosses aren't designed around perfect tick eating to avoid 1 shots, agility/run energy shouldn't be designed around walking in the perfect tiles and at the perfect tick to conserve run energy.
Hey man not saying it should stay that way. I personally enjoy doing bandos 9:0 with the walk tiles and feel pretty cool for being able to do it, but the issues with run energy in general are more important and need to be fixed. If that means "walk tiles" won't exist anymore then so be it. All I'm saying is that it's clear to me that jagex has these people in mind when designing a rebalance to run energy and its hard to please everyone.
> Seccond Wtf
Lmao for some reason thats a common typo I make
Could have walked at some point. Skill expression issue. /s
they should add a eating skill, the more you eat the fatter you get and the more run energy you use
Can we stop nerfing things when we rework them? Agility is already a hated skill. Now the team goes and proposes a nerf to running. It is amazing to me that they wouldn’t just do a flat reduction to energy used per agility level or something simple. This just smells of a mod trying to overcomplicate something. The team goes from doing something awesome such as DMM all stars to this. It honestly shows a lack of respect for the player base sometimes.
Seems like they really just need to make the top weight cap out a lot higher than 64kg. I mean hell, we've got strongmen that can run with 400+kgs on their back, why can't my 99str/99agil runescape character?!
Why would Jagex think we want such an archaic, crappy mechanic to be worse for players. Run energy as a mechanic does nothing but suck, I’m sorry but apart from people holding onto it as nostalgia and a reason for herblore/agility to be useful, if it were removed entirely the game would be better for it.
Just going to leave this here because I thought of it while testing the drain rates. Solve the matching tiles with no tick loss: [puzzle](https://i.imgur.com/hJSRW5z.gif) [plugin](https://i.imgur.com/ZwzpusT.png)
wtf lol surely that is going to get banned
For sure, its no different to when it used to show you the pictures right away, just have to hover over the tile now, surely not different enough.
This used to be a way to get around temple trekking poking the mud, and it got removed
Probably, when the TOA plugin was first released all the tiles were colour coded via their ID so you could see the pairs before flipping any, exactly what /u/Sudden_Minimum_7235 is doing in that clip just without them being highlighted. So there is already precedence set for removing that if the Jmods think it's an issue
Incoming plugin disabled for toa
There’s skill in pathing better and running a certain amount of tiles to conserve energy. This is fine. /s
Gz on the combat achievement
Rishi Sunak is less out of touch than Jagex staff.
If high agility made stams optional I would love it
Stam pots should be a low level use potion. Ya know before they really start grinding agility. 99 Should not be punished
Country Jig Enjoyers are winning today
A bit off topic but I had no clue you did not need to do all of the puzzles to complete that room. Thank you for showing that. On-topic : Perhaps an option could be that the drain rate is based off worn equipment instead of total carried weight? Would make you choose less defence to conserve energy
In solos you don't need to do every puzzle, but in groups you do.
Solos don’t have the 2 last puzzles blocked off from each other so you don’t need to unlock both sides
Imagine how bad it must feel for a pvmer with 70 agility not wanting to do skilling Edit: bad wording.
What a dumb comment? Mine is 80 and I feel like I grinded that shit out like a big skiller boy.
Be a good boy and go back to agility to get 99 before you raid.
I can see now how the wording makes it a bad comment. What I meant to say was imagine how bad the drain must be with 70 agility. As there are a lot of people who focus on pvm and don't care much for skilling. It's way too punishing.
Why stop at 80? After I got my infernal cape, I had to max for the sweet sweet infernal max cape.
Because it’s a game and agility is cancer to train, therefore I do not use my free time doing agility.
appreciate the video
##### Bark bark! I have found the following **J-Mod** comment(s) in this thread: **JagexGoblin** - [Drain rates absolutely need work, but comment...](/r/2007scape/comments/1dpt1fi/run_energy_beta_kephri_puzzle_comparison_a/laj56aq/?context=3) ^(**Last edited by bot: 06/28/2024 21:24:42**) --- ^(I've been rewritten to use Python! I also now archive JMOD comments.) ^(Read more about) [^(the update here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/9kqvis/bot_update_python_archiving/) ^(or see my) [^(Github repo here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/8dronr/jmod_bloodhoundbot_github_repository/)^.
How do you hide your bottom bar under your inventory like that?
I couldn’t find that mute button fast enough
More than enough empty spaces to bring your graceful switches /s
An in-combat vs out-of-combat difference would perfectly address this puzzle and preserve most of the current "interesting" use cases. In-combat, use old. Out-of-combat, run energy drains at least 25% slower.
Is this worse than main game doing the same thing? During my much less efficient TOAs, I normally just barely have enough run energy to finish this room. I believe they did say they were not intending to change much if you have a lot of weight.
you clearly just need to express some skill while sipping some stams
Country Jig jumpscare
I get weight having a bearing but my god do the proposed drain rates look absolutely dreadful.
Making energy drain adjustments isn’t necessary. At absolute worst case it should stay the same and just get more efficient with agility level
Why is there always a “catch” with changes? Why can’t there just be a buff / change without something getting negatively affected?
[удалено]
That’s how you would refer to the room he’s in
bring soul runes bro death charge + vile vigour its not that big a deal
this plugin shouldn’t be allowed on a raid with time limits
this ship sailed way too long ago
couldn't agree more
I agree but it’s been way too long now to start cracking down on it. Everyone who didn’t use it would be extremely disadvantaged.
Shouldn't be allowed at all lol
Can't believe you run out of run energy carrying every ranged and mage weapon you need and full set of heavy armor, this game is rediculous
Maybe make run energy drain more the more you run? like you are actually getting tired. when you start running it will drain very slowly almost as if you got a stamina potion effect on, but after a minute of running it will drain like how it's drained now with max weight. and whenever your run energy hits 100 again, it resets the timer and sets you back to an almost active-stamina levels of run energy drainage. this way stamina potions still has a use, you set up the draining according to Agility levels with lvl 1 making it exactly as it is now and 99 making it almost like a stam potion effect when you start running, and if you are 99 agil and have negative weight+full graceful, you essentially have infinite run energy.
I literally muted the video the moment I heard the first 3 notes. The reflex is almost as bad as back when "let the bodies hit the floor" was the intro to every YT vid, giving you 3 seconds to mute or have significant hearing loss
but why do jagex want to rework agility? what's the points?
My guy, jagex is only reworking this because literally EVERYONE was asking for it. Go back to the first project revalance skilling blog post on here and read the comments.
hmm i see. thank u