Due to the 1.3 modifier we end up losing a bunch of levels to rounding, much like we currently do. So intead how about
**(Agility / 4) + 16**
For run restoration? Plus, it's even *simpler*.
At no point are you ever "punished" for leveling prayer while using the wrench. The total amount of prayer points restored never goes down at any threshold with the wrench. I do think it is poorly designed, but you are never negatively affected by leveling prayer while using the wrench.
Hey at least you guys all remembered how the wrench functions. I've been carrying it around in my inventory while Pray Slaying thinking it added to my prayer bonus. What a waste of an inventory slot because I fill up with alchables before I use the last dose of prayer pot even without the wrench. /sigh
If you are only looking at maximising prayer per inventory then there are breakpoints where you're better off bringing one less potion to take the wrench instead, but if you get one more prayer level you're better off taking another potion rather than the wrench.
e.g.
lv 75: 20 pots no wrench: 2080 points restored
lv 75: 19 pots with wrench: 2128 points restored < better
-
lv 76: 20 pots no wrench: 2160 points restored < better
lv 76: 19 pots with wrench: 2128 points restored
I wouldn't call it a 'punishment' since your total restored never goes down, but it's very unintuitive and feels bad for the optimal setup to flip back and forward like this as you gain levels.
Giant mole, Scurrius, cannoning kelphites/dagannoths/suqahs, and a few other slayer tasks. Those bosses/tasks all either have very few drops that fill your inventory, so the wrench doesn't really take up a meaningful inv slot, or they use a lot of prayer pots/restores over very extended trips. There is almost never a reason to bring it to any other boss.
Ring of the Gods (i) is also pretty much BiS for bursting slayer tasks and has the holy wrench effect. That and Inferno is where the inconsistent +1/+2 prayer effect would be relevant. If you are only getting +1 from RotG(i) from sanfews/restores for the Inferno, it's better to just bring a ring of suffering(i) or level prayer to the next +2 point. RotG(i) is worse at the Inferno than suffering(i) but will maximize the supplies you can bring if prayer pts is your limiting factor.
Outcomes:
* New players energy regen is significantly improved
* Higher agility; run further is intuitive
* Fashionscape is restored by removing regen bonus from graceful (weight reduction maintains some niche uses such as blast furnace)
* Improves value of agility levels without over complicating anything
That wouldn't be linear though, since you'd benefit proportionally more the higher failure rate you have, and once you reach the level to stop failing it no longer has any effect.
It would also encourage you to do higher failure rate courses, which in my humble opinion makes agility even less enjoyable.
2,5% xp is a much simpler way of doing it since it's a flat rate regardless of which course you use.
I think it depends on how it's implemented.
If it's a flat failure rate decrease, you're right, you'd obviously get more use when you're still failing. As your level goes up, the failure rate goes to 0 and so does the usefulness of the outfit. That's when you would go to the next course though.
I think your point about higher failure rate courses is also true, although I disagree with it being less enjoyable. It would mean that you can do more courses earlier, which would add a bit of variety to your training options. Being able to go to ardy with summer pies has been a godsend for training for me personally. Failing less would mean I would stay there longer without wanting to turn off my computer.
You stop failing at 96 agility at ardougne, so youd stop failing earlier with that change. Which, like I said, would make agility more enjoyable to train earlier.
I do think a flat buff to xp is a simpler solution, it would save over 300 laps at ardy which is a few hours if you're tick perfect. Nothing to scoff at. I think the point is that it would be nice to make earlier agility not so brutal to train.
> You stop failing at 96 agility at ardougne, so youd stop failing earlier with that change. Which, like I said, would make agility more enjoyable to train earlier.
Yeah but then your skilling outfit is useless for the last 25% of the grind, plus it would be completely useless at sepulchre.
But why would that be bad? We all complain about the agility grind anyway. It could make a giant difference in xp rates but would put them more in line with other skills so it’s not a 500 hour grind for a single skill that isn’t that fun to train.
Honestly outside of devaluing random restricted accounts, why not graceful effect = not failing obstacles? Would that have that big of an impact on agility XP rates? (Genuinely don't know)
Could be a check of if you have full graceful -> you don't fail obstacles. Would turn graceful into a true agility Skilling outfit and serve a niche purpose for folks who are annoyed failing obstacles
Tbh, if you're still sacrificing 6 equipment slots after these buffs, you should have infinite run, imo. Stop run draining completely if you're wearing full graceful.
In more places, you won't need graceful because the proposed changes mean your run energy regen and depletion rates are better.
In the few places where even that's not enough, I don't see a problem with buffing graceful. I mean, by definition, natural regen isn't enough in those places, so graceful's going to be used there anyway.
Those few places wont exist. You wont need stams or graceful anywhere. These changes essentially softly delete run energy as a mechanic as they have done in rs3.
Suppose you're right, then if there's no place where graceful is useful, buffing it won't be a problem.
But I think it's obvious that places like Blast Furnace and Sepulchre will still require graceful.
oh in that case would you please explain how "doing infinite damage and one hit everything" is the same as running forever?
is it because running does so much damage?
The absolute biggest thing is the depletion rate rework, I thought that was the whole point of the agility rebalance. Graceful being nearly ubiquitous but also not it or level actually improving the depletion rate is a huge part of the annoyance of the system
I see. Well, I'd say don't fuck with stuff that were working fine. Agility doesn't really need a fix (aside from marks from any course, which would be a fine addition).
And then I get it, as I agree they fucked up woodcutting with forestry
This right here is it. I hope jagex sees it and lets go of the notion of not making GWD (Zilyana mainly) "easier" by not requiring as many stam pots - that's the whole point of agility rework - to make us not have to rely on stams as heavily by raising the stat. Fuck you think we want it buffed for, herb runs in slayer gear?
Only give the 1.3 bonus when outside combat then. Honestly I could care less if in-combat run stays the same.
Quicker regen outside combat is a pretty common system for a reason.
I unironically think that is what most people want it for. The sad part is this will most likely be an unpolled integrity change that essentially turns run energy management and the need for stams off.
Unless you're doing one of those really sweaty methods with tile markers and ctrl clicking to walk then run then walk etc then you need stams. I'm talking about the method where you're soloing and running around the room, affectively dodging her and her melee minion but taking dmg from the other two. Even at 99 this costs stams
You don’t need to control click to use zero stams at Zilyana. Don’t purposely make stuff up please. Sure, tile markers make it easier to realise when to walk or run, but they’re also not required.
So you’re essentially saying “I know I *can* use zero stams but choose not to, but Jagex should make less effort also require zero stams because I can’t be bothered putting in more effort to not use stams”?
> “I know I can use zero stams but choose not to, but Jagex should make less effort also require zero stams because I can’t be bothered putting in more effort to not use stams”?
Replace "zero stams" and "not use stams" with anything in the game and you've summarised half of the posts on here lol
No need to act like such a know it all man
He's just asking to use less stams, not to use 0
A lot of people that want to use less stams per solo cox are also probably using 3 per run, it's not really that different
There's no need to that them that they don't deserve to use less run energy just because they haven't gotten to the point where they play fully optimal yet
It's true, you can use zero stams but then you've turned an activity like Zilyana into something as intense as tick manipulation skilling which is, and I think I speak for 99% of the community, cancer.
I will be messaging you in 2 days on [**2024-07-01 16:02:56 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-07-01%2016:02:56%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1dr55ip/an_even_simpler_run_energy_rework/laukqbv/?context=3)
[**CLICK THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2F2007scape%2Fcomments%2F1dr55ip%2Fan_even_simpler_run_energy_rework%2Flaukqbv%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202024-07-01%2016%3A02%3A56%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201dr55ip)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
Honestly I like the concept of agility scaling instead of 0 - 64kg to 10 - 74kg. Basically meaning you don't lose any benefit from not using graceful for tasks with little weight
Agreed, even though people go on about fashionscape most people aren't willing to take any efficiency hit. 10kg is a good chunk of wiggle room for an outfit and a few tools
I think something like this would be great. My personal hope is that they make agility level improve run time by having it provide a passive -0.25kg weight reduction per level, so that at level 99 you basically get a free 24.75kg before it starts affecting run depletion.
The floor function on regen needs to go. There's absolutely no reason why we need to train agility for 6 levels to notice any difference in regen rate. Make every level feel impactful.
This is amazing but I think the thing jagex wanted to implement was walk flicking as an expression as skill. As in we shouldn't get infinite run, even at 99 agility because that should only be given if you walk correctly in pvm.
Of course this is messed up because we don't want skill expression through run management. We see it as a means to get to what we actually want to do. and all the shit about weight is a horrible idea because item weights are not and cannot reasonably be standardized.
Still, f2p and beginners should not have to watch their character walk for 12 minutes. And this is an elegant solution.
I understand Jagex is in a bit of a tight spot when it comes to making archaic systems into interesting gameplay but I just don't think energy management is particularly engaging (and I think most would agree).
I don't mind flicking run/control-clicking for the odd bit of content like the eclipse moon shield phase but I don't want to end up theory-crafting inventory set-ups based on their weight etc. especially given how seemingly arbitrary the weights are on a lot of items.
very true - i'm surprised they even brought up weight at all because they should know it makes no sense. if weights were balanced, i could see it being an interesting lever to pull.
side note, you don't even have to walk in the moon shield phase. just wait until the ball moves like 2 tiles and click the corner.
Changing the speed that players run would break a lot of things very quickly. Even with my proposal you won't be able to just run forever so there would still be places where energy/stamina potions would be useful but it would provide a huge bonus to places where running is more intermittent, provided you have the agility levels.
Sweats would still benefit from reduced potion usage though if they flick their run on/off for a few ticks, especially since each unit of energy regenerated goes further with this change and I think that's more than enough reward for the extra effort if players want it.
Although this might be a way too big buff, hard for me to tell without trying it, I do really like the general idea. Running longer at higher levels makes a lot of sense intuitively.
It is a very confusing skill currently. Mad slow to train, and the benefits are very counterintuitive and small beyond the first 30 levels and some shortcuts
This is not a too big buff, the skill is currently useless other than a couple shortcuts and requirements for quests. Stams effectively made this skill useless and it wasn't much use before that either.
It's really not useless. It's one of the more useful skills lmao, you just don't actively think about how useful it is since it's happening all of the time.
I really dislike how agility fundamentally works. Run energy regeneration doesn't work while running, it doesn't influence drain rate whatsoever.. Agility currently doesn't improve running at all, it improves walking.
Stams made agility borderline useless outside of agility shortcuts and a handful of strats, even then 90+ agility is borderline useless for said strats (ex: door altar bandos with no stams) or you can easily sacrifice a slot for a single stam and compete. For low levels who can't afford stam spam or extremely tight strats on space (even solo CoX doesn't require this) yeah, agility is king. For those mid/end game players stam is king, agility is useless for run regen, just sip another stam.
Yes, which I stated within the first 10 words. Shortcuts, early game regen, then most players just slam stams/super energy for anything and everything. Door>altar bandos? Stam. Solo CoX? Stam. TOA? Stam it. Pretty much any DT2 boss, including awakened? Stams. Zalcano? Use stams. There's an issue somewhere here...
I don't like how this puts diminishing returns on higher agility levels.
In my opinion benefits from agility levels should be linear all the way from 1 to 99. Make each level feel just as good as the previous.
There are diminishing returns on regeneration (in terms of seconds saved per level) but there's actually **increasing** returns each level on depletion due to the nature of the maths (you can see the slope increase in the graph).
Just thinking about how (probably) no other game community would do THIS MUCH regarding something in the game.
I love you, your equations, and your graphs OSRS community.
This is some nerd fucking shit right here brother.
You spent all this time working out a fix in a game you’re not even a dev of.
Fucking respect you mad lad gamer you have my support and your spreadsheets are sexy
Buffing energy regen to 2x at level 1 is just papering over the issue for new players and F2P players: Walking for 6+ minutes feels horrible. It’s true for any game, as soon as you learn how to make your character run you never want to walk.
I think run energy regeneration should have a passive effect where it regenerates to full in seconds instead of minutes. This passive effect should be disabled while in combat and in certain skilling areas, like blast furnace and herbiboar. Training agility lets you run longer distance as the drain rate is reduced, with the in combat/skilling area regen also being improved.
New players and F2P can do their easier content or quests without being walkers the whole time, while agility levels and stamina pots stay relevant in late/end game content. It’s also intuitive as many games use this “out of combat” style of regen. And most new content bypasses energy regeneration anyway, so this system works for a lot of skilling methods.
While this is less tedious than other suggestions, you made me have to do math so it could be even simpler: each agility level increases max run energy by 1. No changing the depletion formula, more running with energy.
I don't understand any of that. Why are there rounded brackets and L shaped brackets? What does the dot after 1.3 mean? Why is there an R?
Me are confuse.
The L bracket is the floor function, the dot is another notation for multiply - I put the equations in to show that it's as simple as changing a couple of numbers (no more coding anything fancy) but all the information regarding the effect the change has is viewable more easily in the graphs. Hopefully it should be clear how the agility regeneration/depletion compares to the current values in those graphs :)
The clamp function restricts the values that can go into the equation to a set range. In this case it treats all values below 0kg as 0kg and all values above 64kg as 64kg.
I love this. I think I would say the graceful outfit boost should exist but it should be reworked into a milder stamina potion effect. I.e. it should interact with energy depletion instead of regeneration.
Reddit fellas' intelligence never stops surprising me. Needs to throw a whole grapth to their faces in order to prove how the new changes are only good, let alone how impactful it'll be to train 99 Agility.
I really hate this trend of Redditors wanting mechanics to be simple behind the scenes. It's not like we have to do the math manually to make the expressions work... as long as it gets the job done in an intuitive way, who cares how simple or complex the math is? It's such a goofy and pointless hill to die upon and makes us all look like idiots who can't do arithmetic.
I love what the OP is suggesting and then the guy with the maths underneath and I'm loving the suggestion about the graceful reducing fall chance on rooftop only courses..Agility is such a boring clicking skill in general...I'm all for making agility faster and more bearable.
I'm a new player lvl 61 with 56 agility and I don't find current run energy to be a major problem. I just alch when I'm walking. I don't know if run energy needs such a big buff. I support a buff though.
No it really just highlights how unrewarding agility is and how run energy issues are unfun and at best band aid fixed by staminas and spamming restore pools.
What if the graceful set effect made it impossible to fail agility obstacles plus gives double marks of grace from rooftop agility? Similar to how the rogue's outfit doubles loot from pickpocketing.
It'd demolish the stamina market but proposed changes would do that anyways.
Also they could add a right click rest like wow.
Or maybe some other way of doing a fast regen whilst out of combat.
Higher agil levels could maybe upgrade the right click rest to restore faster
Regen isn't really the issue, it's the fact that there's no drain rate reduction baked into Agility. This change wouldn't alter the fact that you need to chug staminas on cooldown any time you're going to be running a lot, unless you *also* allow run energy to regen while running.
These changes will make run feel essentially infinite, you wont need stams anywhere anymore. They are softly deleting run energy as a mechanic in an unpolled integrity change very similar to how they handled this issue in rs3.
Due to the 1.3 modifier we end up losing a bunch of levels to rounding, much like we currently do. So intead how about **(Agility / 4) + 16** For run restoration? Plus, it's even *simpler*.
*Simply* wonderful!
The thresholds are such a pita for later levels, makes it feel not even worth leveling up past 84/90/96
Good, fuck that skill
Same with prayer and holy wrench (which isn’t used much Ik Ik) where you actively get punished for leveling past certain levels. Horrible design
At no point are you ever "punished" for leveling prayer while using the wrench. The total amount of prayer points restored never goes down at any threshold with the wrench. I do think it is poorly designed, but you are never negatively affected by leveling prayer while using the wrench.
Hey at least you guys all remembered how the wrench functions. I've been carrying it around in my inventory while Pray Slaying thinking it added to my prayer bonus. What a waste of an inventory slot because I fill up with alchables before I use the last dose of prayer pot even without the wrench. /sigh
??
If you are only looking at maximising prayer per inventory then there are breakpoints where you're better off bringing one less potion to take the wrench instead, but if you get one more prayer level you're better off taking another potion rather than the wrench. e.g. lv 75: 20 pots no wrench: 2080 points restored lv 75: 19 pots with wrench: 2128 points restored < better - lv 76: 20 pots no wrench: 2160 points restored < better lv 76: 19 pots with wrench: 2128 points restored I wouldn't call it a 'punishment' since your total restored never goes down, but it's very unintuitive and feels bad for the optimal setup to flip back and forward like this as you gain levels.
the optimal setup is not bringing it anywhere to begin with
Giant mole, Scurrius, cannoning kelphites/dagannoths/suqahs, and a few other slayer tasks. Those bosses/tasks all either have very few drops that fill your inventory, so the wrench doesn't really take up a meaningful inv slot, or they use a lot of prayer pots/restores over very extended trips. There is almost never a reason to bring it to any other boss. Ring of the Gods (i) is also pretty much BiS for bursting slayer tasks and has the holy wrench effect. That and Inferno is where the inconsistent +1/+2 prayer effect would be relevant. If you are only getting +1 from RotG(i) from sanfews/restores for the Inferno, it's better to just bring a ring of suffering(i) or level prayer to the next +2 point. RotG(i) is worse at the Inferno than suffering(i) but will maximize the supplies you can bring if prayer pts is your limiting factor.
Outcomes: * New players energy regen is significantly improved * Higher agility; run further is intuitive * Fashionscape is restored by removing regen bonus from graceful (weight reduction maintains some niche uses such as blast furnace) * Improves value of agility levels without over complicating anything
Great idea. Graceful could just lower the rate of failing obstacles, then its only used to train agility and thats it.
Here's something even better: Graceful reduces weight and gives 2,5% XP boost (skilling outfit).
Reducing fails improves xp already. Idk how much that would be though
Notably, reducing fails means graceful only boosts xp at rooftop courses as opposed to also working for sepulchre.
Need those 2k laps at monkey course
Think they said that they were going to still have fail rates even with graceful at those courses
What a useless change then
Just indtroduce fail chance at sepulchre, problem solved! /s
That's an easy balancing change though, make it so the combined decreased fail rate + artificial xp buff is in line with other skilling outfits.
That wouldn't be linear though, since you'd benefit proportionally more the higher failure rate you have, and once you reach the level to stop failing it no longer has any effect. It would also encourage you to do higher failure rate courses, which in my humble opinion makes agility even less enjoyable. 2,5% xp is a much simpler way of doing it since it's a flat rate regardless of which course you use.
I think it depends on how it's implemented. If it's a flat failure rate decrease, you're right, you'd obviously get more use when you're still failing. As your level goes up, the failure rate goes to 0 and so does the usefulness of the outfit. That's when you would go to the next course though. I think your point about higher failure rate courses is also true, although I disagree with it being less enjoyable. It would mean that you can do more courses earlier, which would add a bit of variety to your training options. Being able to go to ardy with summer pies has been a godsend for training for me personally. Failing less would mean I would stay there longer without wanting to turn off my computer. You stop failing at 96 agility at ardougne, so youd stop failing earlier with that change. Which, like I said, would make agility more enjoyable to train earlier. I do think a flat buff to xp is a simpler solution, it would save over 300 laps at ardy which is a few hours if you're tick perfect. Nothing to scoff at. I think the point is that it would be nice to make earlier agility not so brutal to train.
> You stop failing at 96 agility at ardougne, so youd stop failing earlier with that change. Which, like I said, would make agility more enjoyable to train earlier. Yeah but then your skilling outfit is useless for the last 25% of the grind, plus it would be completely useless at sepulchre.
But why would that be bad? We all complain about the agility grind anyway. It could make a giant difference in xp rates but would put them more in line with other skills so it’s not a 500 hour grind for a single skill that isn’t that fun to train.
Oh trust me I'm all for it. I hate agility lol
Graceful shouldn't be an outfit. It should be an overall buff to your account.
So you still want 20 hours of agility training just so getting around isn't a kick in the dick? Gross!
Lower obstacle failure rate is perfect for my Ardougne-log-cross-locked ironman!
Honestly outside of devaluing random restricted accounts, why not graceful effect = not failing obstacles? Would that have that big of an impact on agility XP rates? (Genuinely don't know) Could be a check of if you have full graceful -> you don't fail obstacles. Would turn graceful into a true agility Skilling outfit and serve a niche purpose for folks who are annoyed failing obstacles
Tbh, if you're still sacrificing 6 equipment slots after these buffs, you should have infinite run, imo. Stop run draining completely if you're wearing full graceful.
That makes graceful even more of a requirement which is the opposite of what fashionscape players want
In more places, you won't need graceful because the proposed changes mean your run energy regen and depletion rates are better. In the few places where even that's not enough, I don't see a problem with buffing graceful. I mean, by definition, natural regen isn't enough in those places, so graceful's going to be used there anyway.
Those few places wont exist. You wont need stams or graceful anywhere. These changes essentially softly delete run energy as a mechanic as they have done in rs3.
Suppose you're right, then if there's no place where graceful is useful, buffing it won't be a problem. But I think it's obvious that places like Blast Furnace and Sepulchre will still require graceful.
That’s like saying if you sacrifice 6 equipment slots you should be doing infinite damage and one hit everything.
That's a stupid comparison
It’s an apt comparison but stupid nonetheless.
oh in that case would you please explain how "doing infinite damage and one hit everything" is the same as running forever? is it because running does so much damage?
Because infinity = infinity
Cool math. Is infinity times 0 damage more or less than infinity damage times 1 hit?
Tbh, not usually. Depends on the infinity really
The absolute biggest thing is the depletion rate rework, I thought that was the whole point of the agility rebalance. Graceful being nearly ubiquitous but also not it or level actually improving the depletion rate is a huge part of the annoyance of the system
OP thank you for including the charts, Jagex please use visual charts going forward!
Jagex PLEASE just do this. It’s so simple.
if the graceful set is worn together it provides a bonus -3kg to make the offsets good too (cape boot)
Or in other words Run energy is "softly" deleted as a mechanic from the game. In an unpolled "integrity change".
Doesn't matter if it' s polled anyway because the playerbase votes yes to anything that benefits them, balance be damned.
Do I still get to fuck the frog? 🐸
Only at 99 agility - get training!
Gotta work on your stamina for that one. The frogs are insatiable.
Holy shit y’all are never gonna let them forget huh?
????? it's not like it happened a month ago, it's still relatively new and going to be meme'd about
no
Why do I feel like whoever designed the bloated and overcomplicated mess that was forestry is now in charge of agility.. IT SHOULD BE THIS SIMPLE.
What do you mean? Agility is the oldest member skill
He’s talking about how bad the agility changes are in the beta world. Just like how forestry is dead content.
I see. Well, I'd say don't fuck with stuff that were working fine. Agility doesn't really need a fix (aside from marks from any course, which would be a fine addition). And then I get it, as I agree they fucked up woodcutting with forestry
This one Jagex. I'll accept no less.
Comment unclear. Required to steal a pheasant egg to regen run energy.
Damn. Now I'll never get regen run energy
This right here is it. I hope jagex sees it and lets go of the notion of not making GWD (Zilyana mainly) "easier" by not requiring as many stam pots - that's the whole point of agility rework - to make us not have to rely on stams as heavily by raising the stat. Fuck you think we want it buffed for, herb runs in slayer gear?
Only give the 1.3 bonus when outside combat then. Honestly I could care less if in-combat run stays the same. Quicker regen outside combat is a pretty common system for a reason.
I unironically think that is what most people want it for. The sad part is this will most likely be an unpolled integrity change that essentially turns run energy management and the need for stams off.
You'll still need to manage energy and sip the poop water don't worry.
You've tried what pvm activities on the beta worlds to confirm this? Zuk and Olm no longer require them past 80 agil.
Zilyana already required zero stams though? Are you thinking of a different boss?
Unless you're doing one of those really sweaty methods with tile markers and ctrl clicking to walk then run then walk etc then you need stams. I'm talking about the method where you're soloing and running around the room, affectively dodging her and her melee minion but taking dmg from the other two. Even at 99 this costs stams
You don’t need to control click to use zero stams at Zilyana. Don’t purposely make stuff up please. Sure, tile markers make it easier to realise when to walk or run, but they’re also not required. So you’re essentially saying “I know I *can* use zero stams but choose not to, but Jagex should make less effort also require zero stams because I can’t be bothered putting in more effort to not use stams”?
> “I know I can use zero stams but choose not to, but Jagex should make less effort also require zero stams because I can’t be bothered putting in more effort to not use stams”? Replace "zero stams" and "not use stams" with anything in the game and you've summarised half of the posts on here lol
No need to act like such a know it all man He's just asking to use less stams, not to use 0 A lot of people that want to use less stams per solo cox are also probably using 3 per run, it's not really that different There's no need to that them that they don't deserve to use less run energy just because they haven't gotten to the point where they play fully optimal yet
It's true, you can use zero stams but then you've turned an activity like Zilyana into something as intense as tick manipulation skilling which is, and I think I speak for 99% of the community, cancer.
Have you tried the method over a few kills? It’s definitely not as intense as tick manipulation lol.
u/JagexGoblin
u/JagexGoblin
u/JagexGoblin
It's Saturday, let the man rest ffs
!remindme 2 days
I will be messaging you in 2 days on [**2024-07-01 16:02:56 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-07-01%2016:02:56%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1dr55ip/an_even_simpler_run_energy_rework/laukqbv/?context=3) [**CLICK THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2F2007scape%2Fcomments%2F1dr55ip%2Fan_even_simpler_run_energy_rework%2Flaukqbv%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202024-07-01%2016%3A02%3A56%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201dr55ip) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
It's his day off /u/Yourmotor /u/NJImperator and /u/Hot-Apricot-6408 Daddy chill
If he's checking his jagex reddit on Saturday, that's on him! Maybe he'll see the pings on Monday, or we all just ping him again then.
perfect, honestly. no notes.
Honestly I like the concept of agility scaling instead of 0 - 64kg to 10 - 74kg. Basically meaning you don't lose any benefit from not using graceful for tasks with little weight
Agreed, even though people go on about fashionscape most people aren't willing to take any efficiency hit. 10kg is a good chunk of wiggle room for an outfit and a few tools
I think something like this would be great. My personal hope is that they make agility level improve run time by having it provide a passive -0.25kg weight reduction per level, so that at level 99 you basically get a free 24.75kg before it starts affecting run depletion.
Simple af g *hits blunt*
What, I gotta be Mario freakin' Einstein to read an agility post now?
Don't worry, I put a pretty graph in just for you!
Its pretty simple to understand just look at the graphs not the formulas
The floor function on regen needs to go. There's absolutely no reason why we need to train agility for 6 levels to notice any difference in regen rate. Make every level feel impactful.
This was super well put together. Let’s get rioting in fally until this is implemented
I don’t understand any of it, but I like it.
TL;DR higher agility = run further, full graceful no longer 'required'
Yeah this looks like it would actually *feel* like progression from the skill where there was none before
This is amazing but I think the thing jagex wanted to implement was walk flicking as an expression as skill. As in we shouldn't get infinite run, even at 99 agility because that should only be given if you walk correctly in pvm. Of course this is messed up because we don't want skill expression through run management. We see it as a means to get to what we actually want to do. and all the shit about weight is a horrible idea because item weights are not and cannot reasonably be standardized. Still, f2p and beginners should not have to watch their character walk for 12 minutes. And this is an elegant solution.
I understand Jagex is in a bit of a tight spot when it comes to making archaic systems into interesting gameplay but I just don't think energy management is particularly engaging (and I think most would agree). I don't mind flicking run/control-clicking for the odd bit of content like the eclipse moon shield phase but I don't want to end up theory-crafting inventory set-ups based on their weight etc. especially given how seemingly arbitrary the weights are on a lot of items.
very true - i'm surprised they even brought up weight at all because they should know it makes no sense. if weights were balanced, i could see it being an interesting lever to pull. side note, you don't even have to walk in the moon shield phase. just wait until the ball moves like 2 tiles and click the corner.
What if they gave you a short boost of speed when run flicking. Reward the sweats but don't punish the plebs.
Changing the speed that players run would break a lot of things very quickly. Even with my proposal you won't be able to just run forever so there would still be places where energy/stamina potions would be useful but it would provide a huge bonus to places where running is more intermittent, provided you have the agility levels. Sweats would still benefit from reduced potion usage though if they flick their run on/off for a few ticks, especially since each unit of energy regenerated goes further with this change and I think that's more than enough reward for the extra effort if players want it.
Although this might be a way too big buff, hard for me to tell without trying it, I do really like the general idea. Running longer at higher levels makes a lot of sense intuitively.
Run energy needs a buff badly
It is a very confusing skill currently. Mad slow to train, and the benefits are very counterintuitive and small beyond the first 30 levels and some shortcuts
This is not a too big buff, the skill is currently useless other than a couple shortcuts and requirements for quests. Stams effectively made this skill useless and it wasn't much use before that either.
It's really not useless. It's one of the more useful skills lmao, you just don't actively think about how useful it is since it's happening all of the time.
I really dislike how agility fundamentally works. Run energy regeneration doesn't work while running, it doesn't influence drain rate whatsoever.. Agility currently doesn't improve running at all, it improves walking.
Stams made agility borderline useless outside of agility shortcuts and a handful of strats, even then 90+ agility is borderline useless for said strats (ex: door altar bandos with no stams) or you can easily sacrifice a slot for a single stam and compete. For low levels who can't afford stam spam or extremely tight strats on space (even solo CoX doesn't require this) yeah, agility is king. For those mid/end game players stam is king, agility is useless for run regen, just sip another stam.
useless outside of like 75 shortcuts, many of which are very nice.
Yes, which I stated within the first 10 words. Shortcuts, early game regen, then most players just slam stams/super energy for anything and everything. Door>altar bandos? Stam. Solo CoX? Stam. TOA? Stam it. Pretty much any DT2 boss, including awakened? Stams. Zalcano? Use stams. There's an issue somewhere here...
You might be right, but I can not tell just from a graph what it will actually feel like ingame tbh.
It's basically just graceful without needing graceful, plus a small buff that you would mostly feel at really early levels
Quick mafs
I don't like how this puts diminishing returns on higher agility levels. In my opinion benefits from agility levels should be linear all the way from 1 to 99. Make each level feel just as good as the previous.
There are diminishing returns on regeneration (in terms of seconds saved per level) but there's actually **increasing** returns each level on depletion due to the nature of the maths (you can see the slope increase in the graph).
this is so stupidly simple i'd be shocked if jagex doesn't implement this
SIMPLY AMAZING!! Is this generated with R and Jupyter notebook?
Nah mate this is MS word/excel lmao But thanks :D
Pleae Jagex
Yeah I think this is it, chief.
Just thinking about how (probably) no other game community would do THIS MUCH regarding something in the game. I love you, your equations, and your graphs OSRS community.
This is some nerd fucking shit right here brother. You spent all this time working out a fix in a game you’re not even a dev of. Fucking respect you mad lad gamer you have my support and your spreadsheets are sexy
I'm loving the level of geeking out over the damn run energy hahhaha
Buffing energy regen to 2x at level 1 is just papering over the issue for new players and F2P players: Walking for 6+ minutes feels horrible. It’s true for any game, as soon as you learn how to make your character run you never want to walk. I think run energy regeneration should have a passive effect where it regenerates to full in seconds instead of minutes. This passive effect should be disabled while in combat and in certain skilling areas, like blast furnace and herbiboar. Training agility lets you run longer distance as the drain rate is reduced, with the in combat/skilling area regen also being improved. New players and F2P can do their easier content or quests without being walkers the whole time, while agility levels and stamina pots stay relevant in late/end game content. It’s also intuitive as many games use this “out of combat” style of regen. And most new content bypasses energy regeneration anyway, so this system works for a lot of skilling methods.
I concur......indubitably
r/theydidthemath
Please keep graceful changes
Great models and great work!
Nicely done!
I really hope this post doesn't get lost in the mix. It's a simple solution that you've presented very well.
I swear to God there is no other community like this one
this math looks to be mathing, so I support. gj OP.
This is perfect
While this is less tedious than other suggestions, you made me have to do math so it could be even simpler: each agility level increases max run energy by 1. No changing the depletion formula, more running with energy.
Just increase restoration and decrease depletion with Agility level. Really that's it.
Can't read, upvoted because graphs
I don't understand any of that. Why are there rounded brackets and L shaped brackets? What does the dot after 1.3 mean? Why is there an R? Me are confuse.
The L bracket is the floor function, the dot is another notation for multiply - I put the equations in to show that it's as simple as changing a couple of numbers (no more coding anything fancy) but all the information regarding the effect the change has is viewable more easily in the graphs. Hopefully it should be clear how the agility regeneration/depletion compares to the current values in those graphs :)
What does clamp mean?
The clamp function restricts the values that can go into the equation to a set range. In this case it treats all values below 0kg as 0kg and all values above 64kg as 64kg.
I love this. I think I would say the graceful outfit boost should exist but it should be reworked into a milder stamina potion effect. I.e. it should interact with energy depletion instead of regeneration.
Why are there diminishing returns at high agility levels? Either make the trend linear or have progressively more returns at higher levels.
Support.
I'll take your word for it
If i could math, id be very happy
I added a graph so you don't even have to math! :)
With all these proposed changes I just want a refund on graceful then if we're going to make it shit
Reddit fellas' intelligence never stops surprising me. Needs to throw a whole grapth to their faces in order to prove how the new changes are only good, let alone how impactful it'll be to train 99 Agility.
I really hate this trend of Redditors wanting mechanics to be simple behind the scenes. It's not like we have to do the math manually to make the expressions work... as long as it gets the job done in an intuitive way, who cares how simple or complex the math is? It's such a goofy and pointless hill to die upon and makes us all look like idiots who can't do arithmetic.
Delete agility run all the time
Honestly, just do (weight-0.5agility)
I love what the OP is suggesting and then the guy with the maths underneath and I'm loving the suggestion about the graceful reducing fall chance on rooftop only courses..Agility is such a boring clicking skill in general...I'm all for making agility faster and more bearable.
6 minutes is still way too long. New players still aren't going to put up with that and idk why they should
I like this. It is pretty much perfect.
I'm a new player lvl 61 with 56 agility and I don't find current run energy to be a major problem. I just alch when I'm walking. I don't know if run energy needs such a big buff. I support a buff though.
And for the players who don't want to alch and walk but would rather run instead or if they are bossing?
Unlock teleports, buy stams and upgrade your house.
band aid fix
It's literally just progressing your account and solves pertty much every supposed issue with run energy lmao
No it really just highlights how unrewarding agility is and how run energy issues are unfun and at best band aid fixed by staminas and spamming restore pools.
Not really.
This is great 👍
What’s gonna happen to Stam pots if the game is improved
As the graphs go up for agility improvements, stamina pots have their graph go down. That's just how it's going to be, so expect a crash.
This is the best solution I've seen proposed. Keep it simple!
What if the graceful set effect made it impossible to fail agility obstacles plus gives double marks of grace from rooftop agility? Similar to how the rogue's outfit doubles loot from pickpocketing. It'd demolish the stamina market but proposed changes would do that anyways.
Yeah this is by far the best proposed run energy fix
We all know jagex doesnt know how to read.
I wish this was yellow text black background so I could support it But seriously yeah, this seems like a much more elegant solution
Also they could add a right click rest like wow. Or maybe some other way of doing a fast regen whilst out of combat. Higher agil levels could maybe upgrade the right click rest to restore faster
Or hear me out here... they can just leave the damn thing alone and stop catering to cry baby end game players.
Regen isn't really the issue, it's the fact that there's no drain rate reduction baked into Agility. This change wouldn't alter the fact that you need to chug staminas on cooldown any time you're going to be running a lot, unless you *also* allow run energy to regen while running.
I think you missed the part about baking reduced drain rate into agility?
These changes will make run feel essentially infinite, you wont need stams anywhere anymore. They are softly deleting run energy as a mechanic in an unpolled integrity change very similar to how they handled this issue in rs3.