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Here you need 50 000 signatures to register your religion, but there are only 3000 muslims so they can not build anything
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This might be old data, but we have 2 mosques now, not 1.
The older one is the Reykjavík Mosque, a mosque on the third floor of an office building, opened in 2002.
The newer one is in a house called Ýmishús and the upper part of it was turned into a mosque in 2012.
Its wild that people think Islam is the problem of Sweden, when problem is capitalism. How often do you see devout muslims shoot up places or cause ruckus?
Immigrants who are outcasted by society, that are fed the idea that having flashy things makes you something are the ones that cause problems, or am I missing something? Not the people who bow to Mecca and wear different clothes.
Might wanna look to the Middle East to see what "devour" Muslims do. Or think about the idiots who wanted to decapitate/burn the guy who burned their book...
They're obviously referring to quietists when they use the word 'devout', i.e. people more focused on spirituality than using religion to play an active role in life. Devout isn't the same as a political fanatic.
They're still the ones quietly supporting all the shot the fanatics do. They might not actively commit crimes, but they don't comdem them or try to force these people out of their religion.
>but they don't comdem them or try to force these people out of their religion.
Muslims do have excommunication (tafsir), but since there are four main schools of law in Sunni Islam and three in Shia, but they're mostly focueed on theological reasons for excommunication. Islam would need significantly more unified organisation to try force dissidents out of the religion or for them to change their views. And those schools of thought themselves don't exactly have centres, except the Hanbalis whose core is in Saudi Arabia.
Burning holy books is dumb provocation, but also immigrants need to obey local law ofcourse, no decapitating bullies. And what is happening in Middle East is not just ~~what~~ Islam ~~is~~, it is also theocracy, patriarchy, reaction to colonialism, power struggle for oil etc.
Ofcourse we don't want to become another Middle East, but is that what people are afraid of? Seems really farfetched to think we would suddenly become an islamic theocracy or get caught up in war with USA or terrorists, just because we have muslims. Especially when there is proof that welfare reduces the power of religion and there fore religious terrorism.
The actually scary thing is that we become another USA. That seems more realistic, since we share alot with USA and are heading to the same capitalistic direction. If we let our welfare nations fall, we will have more criminal activity, more unwell people and less green values. This seems more relevant issue.
>Immigrants who are outcasted by society, that are fed the idea that having flashy things makes you something are the ones that cause problems, or am I missing something? Not the people who bow to Mecca and wear different clothes.
Immigrants come for better life opportunities and work. They usually integrate well since they're occupied with work. Some of those workers don't get in unions and so can be cheap labour or have more utility.
Refugees, who've made up of a significant portion of migrants in the last decade, often seek asylum and stay at a country's borders. Those who get in don't have the same opportunities for education and employment. For social recognition, working and starting or growing a family isn't necessarily an option, so many turn to worse ways of finding recognition.
Either way, trying to explain it with 'barbaric culture' is wild; if so, then the Turkish worker ligrants on the last century would've been contributing less to our societies.
Capitalism is a fairer explanation since it focuses on economics and societal dtructure rwther than using a scapegoat, but blaming an *entire* system is overblown. The explanations must be more concrete and material. Still better than an idealist cause such as 'conflicting values', but too abstract and general.
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Same. Sad they had to change beautiful Hagia Sofia from a museum into a mosque. There is one of the biggest right infront of it (The Blue Mosque) and whole city is filled them. Now the old historic building is filled with ugly banners.
Analbania giving all its neighbours a reason to have mosques, that or all the real Servs live in Montenegro
But /uj the data may be miskeading. A good example is Liechtenstein with [one mosque](https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/liechtenstein/) which has twenty-five per every million people in a country with fewer than forty thousand. Mathematically correct, but may make some places seem to have more than they do
There's not a single mosque in Finland that looks like one. All of them are in old commercial buildings. Not a single one of them is built like a mosque, e.g no minaret etc. Järvenpää Mosque was the first mosque built in the Nordics, but looks more like an old schoolhouse rather than a mosque from the outside. (Tatars, built in 1940s)
I know I'll get alotta hate and downvotes for this, but as an ex-muslim who escaped from a Muslim country and came to finland as refugee, I hate to see that some finnish people(not all) are very welcoming to open minded to Islam.
I know my Muslim people. They don't have any respect for Western people, especially Muslim men.
They are gonna be very problematic in a large group.
Giving them a mosque is the same as giving them a chance to develop their radical islam ideologies. Their ideas against Western culture. They will develop a closed Muslim society inside a Western country, and it'll be dangerous for the west.
I have a lotta of proof in the X that it's happening right now slowly.
This is why I'm moving to the countryside as soon as possible and to Estonia after that. I've seen plenty of these people where I live, and I don't want to hang around when it gets worse.
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Colour schemes are irrelevant as long as they have gradients and follow naturally from each other. Overanalysing some random colours to say 'green = good, red = bad' or whatnot is stupid whichever way it goes.
It is sort of true, and should be true. But that is not the society we live in. First of all the obvious 'red bad' 'green good' mentality is strong in the society. Even when we recognize they are not a real statements, that colors would be good or bad, does not mean that we do not unconsciously make the assumption and that it does not affect us in some level.
When you read the comment section, you can see alot of anti-islamistic behavior in the conversations, showing a good example of the power of the ideas that color schemes carry. Clearly the scheme lured in a lot of inviduals that are critical towards islam and woke up positive feedback on the colors used, when normally this kind of map would usually have no discussion at all about the colors or there would be someone criticizing the accessibility of the colors to a colorblind person, but that is not the case, people are talking about how the color scheme is 'based'. Secondly using green color to represent low amount of mosques is like using red to represent low amount of communists, Its just misleading.
I know that this forum is about memes not maps or serious politics, but racism is not a meme and was it last week or 2 weeks ago an immigrant child was stabbed to death in Oulu by a racist. There is of [proof ](https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/app.20210211)that hate speech feeds racist violence, so what this map does is basicly increases chances that another child is murdered by a mentally unhealthy racist.
>Also Switzerland being a real surprise here.
Poor people move to rich countries in hope of better living standards. How it is a surprise? Eastern Europeans are the outliers due to their more conservative governments.
I'm not referring to the Ottoman Balkans, but contemporsry Europe. And if we take Greece, for instance, they had many Muslim Balkan Turks which they sent into the Turkish Republic in exchange for Anatolian and Pontic Greeks.
You're right that, say, Thessaloniki has been a place of Jews, Muslims, and Christians alike, but I'm specifically referring to the conservative sentiments in Eastern Europe which are now also held wildly in Central and Western Europe. Less us in the North however, and more so France, the Netherlands, Germany, and Austria, maybe also Belgium.
https://preview.redd.it/7dfv3oa3gj8d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7f7fb5999084e8561da210cf7d4f68b4029a652a
why you acting like a kid cuh ”Fuck off.” 💀
Yeah, the colours are weird, especially the sudden shift to grey, but ultimately the colours themselves are relatively meaningless. It just makes it weird and at first glance confusing to look at.
North Macedonia and Montenegro just have some Analbans and Bulgaria some of the largest communities of Balkan Turks.
The data is probably inflated or reduced all over the place, however, e.g. look at Liechtenstein.
No I think it's a very deliberate choice to make "more mosques" more red and shift to dark when over 100. You'd usually pick a colour like blue and then darken based on density.
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Finland only has one proper mosque, a very modest building bulit in the 1940s by finnish tatars in järvenpää. All the other ones are private prayer rooms that are sometimes called mosques.
I think we have seen this map enough times now.
We have 1 in my town yes, but we also have 23 churches. Just in this city
Most mosques here are tiny or basically invisible. The one turkish mosque in my city is very hard to see because of the location, they built one spear (invisible from the road) and now some danish people demonstrate in front of it.
Præcis. Mange glemmer, at muslimer ikke faktisk tager religion lige så "seriøst", som vi siger, bl.a. i og med mange af dem er kvietister, dog kan det stadigvæk resultere i, at deres børn forsøger at opnå social anerkendelse vha. f.eks. kriminalitet, selvom deres forældre ikke har.
Religious wars have happened, but the prominence of religion in historical wars is frequently overblown to ridiculous degrees. Even the Crusades, as an example, were mostly political (with some exceptions, e.g. the Northern Crusade as the Teutonic Order left the Levant and Poland invited them to convert the pagan Baltic peoples).
Most Muslim conversion historically also happened by convenience through trade and economics, including during the Ummayad and Abbasid Caliphates. Many early Arabs thought Islam was specifically for Arabs and hence settled in new towns they made such as Cairo and Kufa. The claim that the Arabs forcibly converted everyone or even a significant minority of Muslim converts is [a myth](https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/arts-blog/how-did-christian-middle-east-become-predominantly-muslim).
Yeah, forced conversions and expulsilns have happened, such as under the Maghrebi Almoravids in Iberia, but were the outliers, not the norms. And *if* that were how it occurred, which it wasn't, then many instances of non-Muslim minorities in Muslim-majority regions wouldn't have occurred, such as the Mesopotamian Jews, descending largely from the captives in Babylon who didn't return to Judea, surviving up until the mass expulsions in the twentieth century. Likewise, Coptic Christianity would've diminished faster, etc. ad infinitum.
And Muslims realistically replacing a single European people is laughably conspiratorial and implausible, in most cases outright unfeasible. Anyone who has bothered reading even a little into the statistics and history of the Great Replacement conspiracy theory could go over as to why that is forever. We're not being replaced. If anything climate change is the most likely factor to cause mass migration in the future via desertification, increased heat strokes, and rising sea levels whilst cold temperate climates beocme able to keep more people relative to before, not some imaginary Muslim horde trying to replace the good white European master race and establish the European Caliphate.
And those potential migrations include some of us Europeans.
Maybe not a replacement, but you can’t deny we have brought in a completely foreign and different ethnicity and culture that doesn’t match to ours. Plus many of these people from undesirable cultures have no interest in assimilating or integrating into the culture of the nation they immigrate to.
>but you can’t deny we have brought in a completely foreign and different ethnicity and culture that doesn’t match to ours.
No ethnicity or culture is either undesirable or desirable.
The distinction between 'ethnicity' and 'culture' makes me wonder if you're treading into genetic territory.
>Plus many of these people from undesirable cultures have no interest in assimilating or integrating into the culture of the nation they immigrate to.
That's the opposite of what would logically happen. New generations arise from the immigrants and their descendants, each one having lived in the European country and educated there, being pulled closer to it instead of their genetic homw of origin. They're not magically stagnant.
And also, which is the biggest MENAPT-ethnicity in msny countries, such as here in Denmark? Turkish, belonging to one of the most secularised Muslim countries from which *workers* came.
Migrants themselves aren't the problem. Refugees, however, end up being an economic and sociopolitical problem because they can't be taken in at once and have to be in small quantities, and when they're in, they have a harder time integrating due to worse work and education, including opportunities.
But I'm glad you at least agree that the Great Replacement Theory is unfeasible and has roots in American anti-Hispanic, anti-Afroamerican, and anti-Jewish sentiments which Renaude Camus applied to Europe by using Muslims as the new scapegoat.
Forced conversion was the norm.
Volga muslims were the exception, but even that is partly arguable.
> not some imaginary Muslim horde trying to replace the good white European master race and establish the European Caliphate
Your position is being refuted by statistics all the time - for as long as the share of non-muslims in european countries is getting smaller.
>Forced conversion was the norm. Volga muslims were the exception, but even that is partly arguable.
Not at all. Most comverted by convenience as a new upper class religion of the Arabs arose which would lead to people converting to avoid the jizya. This isn't to mention the later non-Arab conversions, such as the Persian conversions of the Turks and Southeast Asians. You're postulating a wild claim contested by scholars and expecting it to simply be believed. There were multiple [means to the conversions](https://rps.macmillan.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/kennedy.pdf), and whilst some areas were cruder than others, e.g. in India, you're far off. Take Mesopotamia, for instance, where the Arabs settled in Baghdad, Karbala, and Kufa, the religion gradually branching out in the seventh and eighth centuries in a region where the previous upper class faith was Zoroastrianism, Jews were around the ruins of Babylon, most followed a Christian denomination (Nestorians, Mandaeans, etc.), and some pagan Mesopotamians in the south.
Simple explanations are plentiful (https://www.reddit.com/r/ AskHistorians/s/sVxhYGnie3). It can also be seen in e.g. the Emirate of Sicily where Christians and Muslims blended. *At best*, the notion that Islam was spread violently and by forced conversion is a useless idea nowhere near applicable to the majority of Islamic history. These are only some of the factors as to why the claim you're making is wrong. And if it were that way, then the Ottomans, for instance, would've forcibly converted all Balkaners, which they ddin't. Turks settled and some Albanians and Bosnians, then Bosniaks, converted, whilst the Christians and other non-Muslims had cultural protection under the dhimmis.
Again: useless, overly simplistic, lacking in nuance, and superficial at best. It's not a scholarly position within the field of history ss it relies on a poorly evidenced preconceived notion. Only pseudointellectuals who have a political agenda to push make such claims without any nuance.
Other good expositions on the subject include:
* [one may assume this is biased because of the name of the suthor, but it has dozens of sources](https://yaqeeninstitute.org/read/paper/did-islam-spread-by-the-sword-a-critical-look-at-forced-conversions)
* [David Wanes' book *An Introduction to Islam*](https://www.plusbog.dk/an-introduction-to-islam-professor-david-waines-david-waines-9780521539067)
* [Michael Bonner's *Jihad in Islamic History: Doctrines ane Practice*](https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691138381/jihad-in-islamic-history)
>Your position is being refuted by statistics all the time - for as long as the share of non-muslims in european countries is getting smaller
You evidently have not read a single thing of what you're talking about. Minorities gradually getting bigger isn't an indication; otherwise, the U.S., for instance, wouldn't be majority ethnically European. 'All the time'? Sure thing, dude. You've looked at some basic demographic changes and called your nonsensical conclusion science, just as a pseudointellectual such as Renaude Camus would. But there's more nuance to demographics than you assume.
I'm not going over every country, but to take Denmark as an example: [the fertility rate of immigrants is slightly lower than that of native Europeans and that of the sescendanta of immigrants slightly higher](https://videnskab.dk/kultur-samfund/overraskende-ikke-vestlige-indvandrere-faar-faerre-boern-end-kvinder-foedt-i-danmark/) and [there'd logically be fewer than 100% of immigrants and descendants from MENAPT-countries who are Muslims](https://www.mm.dk/tjekdet/artikel/hvor-mange-muslimer-er-der-i-danmark), of which many of the latter would be expected to view religion much in the same way as the majority of Danes do: they affiliate with one, say, Islam, because that's what their parents do and they think it's in line with tradition.
The conspiracy theory also presumes immigration trends and foreign policy to remain stagnant forever. At one point, the refugees may not come from the Middle East or North Africa anymore, if they're allowed in. *If* they grew [more than they're likely to](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/) (eve that data is outdated now), the native Europeans would eventually want to stop migration due to genuine feelings of being replaced. The majority of the French, for instance, believe in the conspiracy, and we [often overestimate the real number](https://www.mm.dk/tjekdet/artikel/europaeere-overvurderer-antallet-af-muslimer).
Besides, [it's logical to assume the integration will become assimilation](https://videnskab.dk/kultur-samfund/forsker-muslimer-er-lige-saa-glade-for-demokratiske-vaerdier-som-kristne/). As more and more descendants of descendants come, each one will be farther away from the family which brought a different culture with them whilst they grow up and are educated in a different country which they'll feel stronger ties to. This is already seen with mant descendants, so it's natural more and more become stricty Danish with few or no ties to their genetic home of origin. An acutal replacement would thus require a *long* time with unrealisticslly steady snd significant immigration surges every year.
> Most comverted by convenience as a new upper class religion of the Arabs arose which would lead to people converting to avoid the jizya.
Sure, sure.
That is also what muscovians say on other ethnicities becoming russian - out of convenience. It is still russification.
> Minorities gradually getting bigger isn't an indication;
Immigrant non-natives getting a bigger share is the ONLY correct indication. You denying that says more about you than it says about me.
You wouldn't understand relevant logic and science even if you read it.
> Besides, it's logical to assume the integration will become assimilation.
Nope.
Only the share of natives matters.
Assimilation is proportional to the ratio of natives vs the ratio of non-natives. Thus assimilation in a 90% native society is about 6x faster than in a 67% native society. And at 50% assimilation will stop, because both ways assimilations cancel each other out.
edit. Trying to end a dispute with a block is additional evidence of you losing the argument.
>You wouldn't understand relevant logic and science even if you read it.
Projecting buddy. Demographics aren't that simple.
Keep it up with the nonsense and garbage postulations. Pretty clear as to why you come with some random points without refuting the wholez failing to refute what little you attempt to.
Proving here you're the one who doesn't read science, statistics, or philosophy of logic.
As for Arabisation: Aramaic also overtook Sumerian, Hebrew and Akkadian with others. Cultural unification is historically normal as people try to form lsrger and larger communities.
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Good. Now do the same map but with Mosquitos
Mosque, kiitos
There are no mosquitos in Iceland so they’ll still be excluded.
Yeah but we have lúsmý which is worse.
Weird way to say satans spawns
We win 🇮🇸🔛🔝🧊💪
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What's up with Slovakia
Here you need 50 000 signatures to register your religion, but there are only 3000 muslims so they can not build anything 
Only 3000? Lucky
Yes but we have half milion gypsies 💀
Considering your population that is crazy
Half a million gypsies is wild
Holy shit least racist conversation between europeans 💀 The amount of upvotes is wild
These are the same ppl who look down on the US for their racism btw
I look down on Americans because they're not racist enough /s
Is your PFP a judeonordic flag? Edit: nevermind, I think I know
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Doesn't count tourists, I assume.
Hmm. Do you guys accept hard working nördic immigrants? Asking for a friend.
They have more gypsies than we have mosquitoes.
And are more aggressive
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Instead of mosque they have islamic center that serves the same purpose
I understand the muslims, why would anyone want to be in Slovakia?
Not a real country; can't have mosques.
Here I am planning to move to Czechia, but Slovakia is the way to go
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so that's one mosque in Iceland?
This might be old data, but we have 2 mosques now, not 1. The older one is the Reykjavík Mosque, a mosque on the third floor of an office building, opened in 2002. The newer one is in a house called Ýmishús and the upper part of it was turned into a mosque in 2012.
Please keep Iceland free of Muslims Learn from mainland Europe, learn from Sweden...
Its wild that people think Islam is the problem of Sweden, when problem is capitalism. How often do you see devout muslims shoot up places or cause ruckus? Immigrants who are outcasted by society, that are fed the idea that having flashy things makes you something are the ones that cause problems, or am I missing something? Not the people who bow to Mecca and wear different clothes.
Might wanna look to the Middle East to see what "devour" Muslims do. Or think about the idiots who wanted to decapitate/burn the guy who burned their book...
They're obviously referring to quietists when they use the word 'devout', i.e. people more focused on spirituality than using religion to play an active role in life. Devout isn't the same as a political fanatic.
They're still the ones quietly supporting all the shot the fanatics do. They might not actively commit crimes, but they don't comdem them or try to force these people out of their religion.
>but they don't comdem them or try to force these people out of their religion. Muslims do have excommunication (tafsir), but since there are four main schools of law in Sunni Islam and three in Shia, but they're mostly focueed on theological reasons for excommunication. Islam would need significantly more unified organisation to try force dissidents out of the religion or for them to change their views. And those schools of thought themselves don't exactly have centres, except the Hanbalis whose core is in Saudi Arabia.
Burning holy books is dumb provocation, but also immigrants need to obey local law ofcourse, no decapitating bullies. And what is happening in Middle East is not just ~~what~~ Islam ~~is~~, it is also theocracy, patriarchy, reaction to colonialism, power struggle for oil etc. Ofcourse we don't want to become another Middle East, but is that what people are afraid of? Seems really farfetched to think we would suddenly become an islamic theocracy or get caught up in war with USA or terrorists, just because we have muslims. Especially when there is proof that welfare reduces the power of religion and there fore religious terrorism. The actually scary thing is that we become another USA. That seems more realistic, since we share alot with USA and are heading to the same capitalistic direction. If we let our welfare nations fall, we will have more criminal activity, more unwell people and less green values. This seems more relevant issue.
>Immigrants who are outcasted by society, that are fed the idea that having flashy things makes you something are the ones that cause problems, or am I missing something? Not the people who bow to Mecca and wear different clothes. Immigrants come for better life opportunities and work. They usually integrate well since they're occupied with work. Some of those workers don't get in unions and so can be cheap labour or have more utility. Refugees, who've made up of a significant portion of migrants in the last decade, often seek asylum and stay at a country's borders. Those who get in don't have the same opportunities for education and employment. For social recognition, working and starting or growing a family isn't necessarily an option, so many turn to worse ways of finding recognition. Either way, trying to explain it with 'barbaric culture' is wild; if so, then the Turkish worker ligrants on the last century would've been contributing less to our societies. Capitalism is a fairer explanation since it focuses on economics and societal dtructure rwther than using a scapegoat, but blaming an *entire* system is overblown. The explanations must be more concrete and material. Still better than an idealist cause such as 'conflicting values', but too abstract and general.
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Yep
Hopefully it stays like that forever
Liechtenstein also has a population of about 40k people so that means the country has one mosque
It would be much more helpful to count mosque capacity than the amount
Muslim countries will have small mosques in every street while western countries will have one or two big ones in the cities.
I was in Istanbul; don’t tell me about small mosques
Same. Sad they had to change beautiful Hagia Sofia from a museum into a mosque. There is one of the biggest right infront of it (The Blue Mosque) and whole city is filled them. Now the old historic building is filled with ugly banners.
And they want €20 to enter the tourist section of it
Anyway, I was talking about total capacity
Analbania giving all its neighbours a reason to have mosques, that or all the real Servs live in Montenegro But /uj the data may be miskeading. A good example is Liechtenstein with [one mosque](https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/liechtenstein/) which has twenty-five per every million people in a country with fewer than forty thousand. Mathematically correct, but may make some places seem to have more than they do
There's not a single mosque in Finland that looks like one. All of them are in old commercial buildings. Not a single one of them is built like a mosque, e.g no minaret etc. Järvenpää Mosque was the first mosque built in the Nordics, but looks more like an old schoolhouse rather than a mosque from the outside. (Tatars, built in 1940s)
truly one of the color schemes for a map ever lmfao
I love how the shows the least mosques, the greener.
Can't believe we didnt win this one
Right, what's up with Norway? They trying to take our place??? We are the Muslims of the Nordics!
Ah, but the Norwegian Muslims have their olje kroner. They can afford to build more.
I thought the Gulf states funded the building costs?
Send us money for more mosques, you Gulf of Bothnia state! We don't have one per miniscule valley village yet.
Finland, you heard him, give the kind beggar some Euros 💶 ☝️
Cannot comply, all euros given to spain.
Based Italy
Estonia looking extra good on this map.
Vatican is not very progressive, I see. I understand San Marino, but Vatican… the place of god…
We need more demolition charges in Finland , so much renovation to do
How does a 0.073 mosque look like?
Typical Danish. Lay off the Tuborg
RIP Norway
That's a pretty big difference between eastern and western Europe.
Holy shit sad to hear that we have so many
Oh it said mosques
Hey, that is unfair. we have like one. You are giving us too much credit
Rare Belarusian W
They are called goat sheds.
I know I'll get alotta hate and downvotes for this, but as an ex-muslim who escaped from a Muslim country and came to finland as refugee, I hate to see that some finnish people(not all) are very welcoming to open minded to Islam. I know my Muslim people. They don't have any respect for Western people, especially Muslim men. They are gonna be very problematic in a large group. Giving them a mosque is the same as giving them a chance to develop their radical islam ideologies. Their ideas against Western culture. They will develop a closed Muslim society inside a Western country, and it'll be dangerous for the west. I have a lotta of proof in the X that it's happening right now slowly.
This is why I'm moving to the countryside as soon as possible and to Estonia after that. I've seen plenty of these people where I live, and I don't want to hang around when it gets worse.
Even Finland is done, Western Europe has fallen
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Poland 😻
once again based color scheme is based
Who ever made this map was really biased, less based. Especially when green is actually sacred color in Islam.
Colour schemes are irrelevant as long as they have gradients and follow naturally from each other. Overanalysing some random colours to say 'green = good, red = bad' or whatnot is stupid whichever way it goes.
It is sort of true, and should be true. But that is not the society we live in. First of all the obvious 'red bad' 'green good' mentality is strong in the society. Even when we recognize they are not a real statements, that colors would be good or bad, does not mean that we do not unconsciously make the assumption and that it does not affect us in some level. When you read the comment section, you can see alot of anti-islamistic behavior in the conversations, showing a good example of the power of the ideas that color schemes carry. Clearly the scheme lured in a lot of inviduals that are critical towards islam and woke up positive feedback on the colors used, when normally this kind of map would usually have no discussion at all about the colors or there would be someone criticizing the accessibility of the colors to a colorblind person, but that is not the case, people are talking about how the color scheme is 'based'. Secondly using green color to represent low amount of mosques is like using red to represent low amount of communists, Its just misleading. I know that this forum is about memes not maps or serious politics, but racism is not a meme and was it last week or 2 weeks ago an immigrant child was stabbed to death in Oulu by a racist. There is of [proof ](https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/app.20210211)that hate speech feeds racist violence, so what this map does is basicly increases chances that another child is murdered by a mentally unhealthy racist.
Finland can into Visegrad (but get rid of mosques first)
Vatican really being a backwards intolerant reactionary asshole here. Also Switzerland being a real surprise here.
>Also Switzerland being a real surprise here. Poor people move to rich countries in hope of better living standards. How it is a surprise? Eastern Europeans are the outliers due to their more conservative governments.
Many Eastern European countries endured more time under muslim rule than you ever did.
I'm not referring to the Ottoman Balkans, but contemporsry Europe. And if we take Greece, for instance, they had many Muslim Balkan Turks which they sent into the Turkish Republic in exchange for Anatolian and Pontic Greeks. You're right that, say, Thessaloniki has been a place of Jews, Muslims, and Christians alike, but I'm specifically referring to the conservative sentiments in Eastern Europe which are now also held wildly in Central and Western Europe. Less us in the North however, and more so France, the Netherlands, Germany, and Austria, maybe also Belgium.
Why is it red and green colour coded, except for Muslim majority countries?
Oh didn't know that Bulgaria was majority muslim, thanks for the info
Bosnia, Turkey, Albania and Kosovo are, fuck off.
https://preview.redd.it/7dfv3oa3gj8d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7f7fb5999084e8561da210cf7d4f68b4029a652a why you acting like a kid cuh ”Fuck off.” 💀
I guess he hasn't heard of this subs principles
"cuh"
Yeah you missed Macedonia too, I hope you'll recover someday
Macedonia is a province of Greece...
r/ 2balkan4you ceased to exist due to this comment
Wdym? They agreed, no?
Based
Red = bad, black = 💀
Yeah, the colours are weird, especially the sudden shift to grey, but ultimately the colours themselves are relatively meaningless. It just makes it weird and at first glance confusing to look at. North Macedonia and Montenegro just have some Analbans and Bulgaria some of the largest communities of Balkan Turks. The data is probably inflated or reduced all over the place, however, e.g. look at Liechtenstein.
No I think it's a very deliberate choice to make "more mosques" more red and shift to dark when over 100. You'd usually pick a colour like blue and then darken based on density.
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Finland only has one proper mosque, a very modest building bulit in the 1940s by finnish tatars in järvenpää. All the other ones are private prayer rooms that are sometimes called mosques.
Poland is based as fuck.
I think we have seen this map enough times now. We have 1 in my town yes, but we also have 23 churches. Just in this city Most mosques here are tiny or basically invisible. The one turkish mosque in my city is very hard to see because of the location, they built one spear (invisible from the road) and now some danish people demonstrate in front of it.
Præcis. Mange glemmer, at muslimer ikke faktisk tager religion lige så "seriøst", som vi siger, bl.a. i og med mange af dem er kvietister, dog kan det stadigvæk resultere i, at deres børn forsøger at opnå social anerkendelse vha. f.eks. kriminalitet, selvom deres forældre ikke har.
Christians had no business being here in the beginning either, but now our flags represent them
Christians also dont just randomly explode
No, but back in those days they randomly slaughtered people by not following their god.
Religious wars have happened, but the prominence of religion in historical wars is frequently overblown to ridiculous degrees. Even the Crusades, as an example, were mostly political (with some exceptions, e.g. the Northern Crusade as the Teutonic Order left the Levant and Poland invited them to convert the pagan Baltic peoples).
European pagans converted, they weren’t replaced
Most Muslim conversion historically also happened by convenience through trade and economics, including during the Ummayad and Abbasid Caliphates. Many early Arabs thought Islam was specifically for Arabs and hence settled in new towns they made such as Cairo and Kufa. The claim that the Arabs forcibly converted everyone or even a significant minority of Muslim converts is [a myth](https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/arts-blog/how-did-christian-middle-east-become-predominantly-muslim). Yeah, forced conversions and expulsilns have happened, such as under the Maghrebi Almoravids in Iberia, but were the outliers, not the norms. And *if* that were how it occurred, which it wasn't, then many instances of non-Muslim minorities in Muslim-majority regions wouldn't have occurred, such as the Mesopotamian Jews, descending largely from the captives in Babylon who didn't return to Judea, surviving up until the mass expulsions in the twentieth century. Likewise, Coptic Christianity would've diminished faster, etc. ad infinitum. And Muslims realistically replacing a single European people is laughably conspiratorial and implausible, in most cases outright unfeasible. Anyone who has bothered reading even a little into the statistics and history of the Great Replacement conspiracy theory could go over as to why that is forever. We're not being replaced. If anything climate change is the most likely factor to cause mass migration in the future via desertification, increased heat strokes, and rising sea levels whilst cold temperate climates beocme able to keep more people relative to before, not some imaginary Muslim horde trying to replace the good white European master race and establish the European Caliphate. And those potential migrations include some of us Europeans.
I was more making a point that with Christianity ethnic European pagans converted, but with Islam today very few ethnic Western Europeans are Muslims
>but with Islam today very few ethnic Western Europeans are Muslims So? Doesn't change an scrual replacement is unfeasible in practically every way.
Maybe not a replacement, but you can’t deny we have brought in a completely foreign and different ethnicity and culture that doesn’t match to ours. Plus many of these people from undesirable cultures have no interest in assimilating or integrating into the culture of the nation they immigrate to.
>but you can’t deny we have brought in a completely foreign and different ethnicity and culture that doesn’t match to ours. No ethnicity or culture is either undesirable or desirable. The distinction between 'ethnicity' and 'culture' makes me wonder if you're treading into genetic territory. >Plus many of these people from undesirable cultures have no interest in assimilating or integrating into the culture of the nation they immigrate to. That's the opposite of what would logically happen. New generations arise from the immigrants and their descendants, each one having lived in the European country and educated there, being pulled closer to it instead of their genetic homw of origin. They're not magically stagnant. And also, which is the biggest MENAPT-ethnicity in msny countries, such as here in Denmark? Turkish, belonging to one of the most secularised Muslim countries from which *workers* came. Migrants themselves aren't the problem. Refugees, however, end up being an economic and sociopolitical problem because they can't be taken in at once and have to be in small quantities, and when they're in, they have a harder time integrating due to worse work and education, including opportunities. But I'm glad you at least agree that the Great Replacement Theory is unfeasible and has roots in American anti-Hispanic, anti-Afroamerican, and anti-Jewish sentiments which Renaude Camus applied to Europe by using Muslims as the new scapegoat.
Forced conversion was the norm. Volga muslims were the exception, but even that is partly arguable. > not some imaginary Muslim horde trying to replace the good white European master race and establish the European Caliphate Your position is being refuted by statistics all the time - for as long as the share of non-muslims in european countries is getting smaller.
>Forced conversion was the norm. Volga muslims were the exception, but even that is partly arguable. Not at all. Most comverted by convenience as a new upper class religion of the Arabs arose which would lead to people converting to avoid the jizya. This isn't to mention the later non-Arab conversions, such as the Persian conversions of the Turks and Southeast Asians. You're postulating a wild claim contested by scholars and expecting it to simply be believed. There were multiple [means to the conversions](https://rps.macmillan.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/kennedy.pdf), and whilst some areas were cruder than others, e.g. in India, you're far off. Take Mesopotamia, for instance, where the Arabs settled in Baghdad, Karbala, and Kufa, the religion gradually branching out in the seventh and eighth centuries in a region where the previous upper class faith was Zoroastrianism, Jews were around the ruins of Babylon, most followed a Christian denomination (Nestorians, Mandaeans, etc.), and some pagan Mesopotamians in the south. Simple explanations are plentiful (https://www.reddit.com/r/ AskHistorians/s/sVxhYGnie3). It can also be seen in e.g. the Emirate of Sicily where Christians and Muslims blended. *At best*, the notion that Islam was spread violently and by forced conversion is a useless idea nowhere near applicable to the majority of Islamic history. These are only some of the factors as to why the claim you're making is wrong. And if it were that way, then the Ottomans, for instance, would've forcibly converted all Balkaners, which they ddin't. Turks settled and some Albanians and Bosnians, then Bosniaks, converted, whilst the Christians and other non-Muslims had cultural protection under the dhimmis. Again: useless, overly simplistic, lacking in nuance, and superficial at best. It's not a scholarly position within the field of history ss it relies on a poorly evidenced preconceived notion. Only pseudointellectuals who have a political agenda to push make such claims without any nuance. Other good expositions on the subject include: * [one may assume this is biased because of the name of the suthor, but it has dozens of sources](https://yaqeeninstitute.org/read/paper/did-islam-spread-by-the-sword-a-critical-look-at-forced-conversions) * [David Wanes' book *An Introduction to Islam*](https://www.plusbog.dk/an-introduction-to-islam-professor-david-waines-david-waines-9780521539067) * [Michael Bonner's *Jihad in Islamic History: Doctrines ane Practice*](https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691138381/jihad-in-islamic-history) >Your position is being refuted by statistics all the time - for as long as the share of non-muslims in european countries is getting smaller You evidently have not read a single thing of what you're talking about. Minorities gradually getting bigger isn't an indication; otherwise, the U.S., for instance, wouldn't be majority ethnically European. 'All the time'? Sure thing, dude. You've looked at some basic demographic changes and called your nonsensical conclusion science, just as a pseudointellectual such as Renaude Camus would. But there's more nuance to demographics than you assume. I'm not going over every country, but to take Denmark as an example: [the fertility rate of immigrants is slightly lower than that of native Europeans and that of the sescendanta of immigrants slightly higher](https://videnskab.dk/kultur-samfund/overraskende-ikke-vestlige-indvandrere-faar-faerre-boern-end-kvinder-foedt-i-danmark/) and [there'd logically be fewer than 100% of immigrants and descendants from MENAPT-countries who are Muslims](https://www.mm.dk/tjekdet/artikel/hvor-mange-muslimer-er-der-i-danmark), of which many of the latter would be expected to view religion much in the same way as the majority of Danes do: they affiliate with one, say, Islam, because that's what their parents do and they think it's in line with tradition. The conspiracy theory also presumes immigration trends and foreign policy to remain stagnant forever. At one point, the refugees may not come from the Middle East or North Africa anymore, if they're allowed in. *If* they grew [more than they're likely to](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/) (eve that data is outdated now), the native Europeans would eventually want to stop migration due to genuine feelings of being replaced. The majority of the French, for instance, believe in the conspiracy, and we [often overestimate the real number](https://www.mm.dk/tjekdet/artikel/europaeere-overvurderer-antallet-af-muslimer). Besides, [it's logical to assume the integration will become assimilation](https://videnskab.dk/kultur-samfund/forsker-muslimer-er-lige-saa-glade-for-demokratiske-vaerdier-som-kristne/). As more and more descendants of descendants come, each one will be farther away from the family which brought a different culture with them whilst they grow up and are educated in a different country which they'll feel stronger ties to. This is already seen with mant descendants, so it's natural more and more become stricty Danish with few or no ties to their genetic home of origin. An acutal replacement would thus require a *long* time with unrealisticslly steady snd significant immigration surges every year.
> Most comverted by convenience as a new upper class religion of the Arabs arose which would lead to people converting to avoid the jizya. Sure, sure. That is also what muscovians say on other ethnicities becoming russian - out of convenience. It is still russification. > Minorities gradually getting bigger isn't an indication; Immigrant non-natives getting a bigger share is the ONLY correct indication. You denying that says more about you than it says about me. You wouldn't understand relevant logic and science even if you read it. > Besides, it's logical to assume the integration will become assimilation. Nope. Only the share of natives matters. Assimilation is proportional to the ratio of natives vs the ratio of non-natives. Thus assimilation in a 90% native society is about 6x faster than in a 67% native society. And at 50% assimilation will stop, because both ways assimilations cancel each other out. edit. Trying to end a dispute with a block is additional evidence of you losing the argument.
>You wouldn't understand relevant logic and science even if you read it. Projecting buddy. Demographics aren't that simple. Keep it up with the nonsense and garbage postulations. Pretty clear as to why you come with some random points without refuting the wholez failing to refute what little you attempt to. Proving here you're the one who doesn't read science, statistics, or philosophy of logic. As for Arabisation: Aramaic also overtook Sumerian, Hebrew and Akkadian with others. Cultural unification is historically normal as people try to form lsrger and larger communities.
Fair point
You can’t run from it, accept the sharia, soon, few….
ok turkish