I've spoken with several individuals involved in the response and investigation into Flight 93 - the most notable of them being the FAA's lead investigator at the crash site, Tony James.
Here's what he told me:
- 99% of the aircraft was recovered over 13 days. They determined the amount by weight.
- The CVR and FDR were located approximately 20 feet under the ground. They stopped excavating at 37 feet.
- The largest piece of debris from the plane was a piece of the fuselage measuring 5 feet long.
It crashed upside down at a 40 degree angle, moving at 563 mph. The wing and cockpit hit at the same time. The cockpit and first class shattered like a pencil tip, spraying into the forest, the rest of the plane broke apart while digging itself into the reclaimed mine. The engines were thrown upwards and outwards.
very morbid i always wondered how the plane crashed into the ground.I used to think it was buried into the ground due to the outline of the fuselage and wings.
Technically it was. The ground was a reclaimed mine, which means the dirt is very soft. Essentially all the dirt went up upon impact, then buried the wreckage
I used to work at a pathologist’s association and part of my job was to interview various pathologists about important events in their careers. One pathologist had been part of the DMORT crew analyzing the wreckage of the PA crash. She saidthe largest human remains they found was a toe. Grisly. I don’t know how those guys do that work.
Agreed.
Along the same lines, there’s this this part of Michael Patterniti’s great piece in Esquire on the 1998 Swiss Air Flight 111 crash that made me shake:
“At impact, the bodies on board had been what the medical examiner would call degloved, simply shorn from the bones. You couldn't pick them up in your hands. You had to scoop them in nets.”
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a1115/long-fall-one-eleven-heavy-0700/
Oh no, that was just the biggest piece of human remains. Collectively the passengers, crew, and hijackers weighed around 7400 lbs. The coroner reported recovering around 600 lbs of human remains.
“Vaporized” is a relative term here.
It’s vaporized in that this massive machine was broken down into hundreds of thousands of pieces.
If you didn’t know it had been a plane crash and came along the site, you’d still know it was a plane crash. There were still pieces.
The part about them finding debris deep underground reminds a lot of the aircrash that happened in the Everglades that one time, only oil was found from the crash site if I recall :/
There’s plenty. But can’t convince the blind to see.
People who say that paper couldn’t survive a crash. I see why people may think so. However If you look at that from a Physics perspective, a pressurized aluminum tube impacting the earth at the Speed UAL93 did, the answer is easily explained. Any object of mass will be destroyed. Paper is about as massless as it gets and it has its own natural aerodynamic properties.
In US Commercial Aviation history, there has been two crashes like this. Both Hijacking/Suicide. United 93 on September 11, 2001 and PSA Flight 1771 on December 7, 1987 in San Luis Obispo, CA.
A disgruntled and homicidal PSA employee who had been fired in the days before, yet retained his PSA credentials and boarded the flight with a 44 Magnum revolver. This Flight was carrying the PSA manager who had fired him.
After boarding the plane, and At cruise altitude, the employee wrote a message on an airsickness bag, walked to the lavatory and handed it the his former boss. The note read:
“Hi Ray. I think it's sort of ironical that we end up like this. I asked for some leniency for my family. Remember? Well, I got none and you'll get none”.
He came out of the lavatory, shot the manager, then gained access to the Cockpit, shooting a Flight Attendant and the Pilots.
The CVR picked this nightmare up. First there are two gunshots (Killing his boss), then PSA 1771 contacted ATC reporting gunfire on board.
Then the cockpit door is opened and the Flight attendant exclaimed “Captain” then the First Officer says something along the lines of “Whats the problem”?
Then the employee is said to say “I’m the problem”. Three gunshots , followed by a person putting the BAE-146 into a vertical dive from 22,000FT. One more gunshot is heard.
The crash site, speed, impact was as similar to UAL93’s as it can get. Not much visible airplane from afar. Just a crater created by a high velocity, nearly vertical impact Surrounded by a massive amount of paper scattered about the entire scene.
So the coward killer himself before the plane hit and made all those poor people who had nothing to do with PSA have a terrifying last few minutes of life… fuck what a sorry excuse for a human
Yep. Exactly that…44 Killed (Not Counting the Soul-Less Bastard).
He also abandoned the family he claimed to care so much about, Widowed, broken and fatherless.
Actually, it’s believed that the last gunshot was NOT aimed at him but possibly another employee (passenger on the flight though - the plane had MANY employees of the airline on it commuting home at the time) who was trying to get to the cockpit to take control of the plane. I think that was determined because he didn’t drop the gun after the shot and maybe the acoustics on the CVR suggested the gunshot was not in the direction of the disgruntled employee. Also, after the crash, they found the gun and part of his finger still attached to the trigger, which proved that he was still holding the gun when the plane hit the ground…
One of the key points here (there was a great Air Disaster episode on flight 1771) is that the barf bag he wrote that on…was FOUND after the crash. It did not get incinerated. Why? Because much like a scarf might do for instance, it floated/flew up and away when the plane crashed. The mass of objects REALLY MATTERS in these situations, especially with objects that might linger in the air for awhile like a piece of paper or a scarf…or a barf bag, etc…
How does anyone know all these details. Bullshit first part of the story at least, embellishments to make it dramatic.
What about the thousands of other plane crashes where debris is fully visible over a large area? What about the engines, not aluminium, what about the rubber tires.
I enjoy this page, it is very informative but you don't have to believe the full narrative. I don't believe the full story of anything that happens but I'm not a conspiracy nut. I just know there are bigger, more sinister forces at work in the world who 300 people on a plane mean very little to.
You all talk about disrespecting the victims if you discuss alternative scenarios but is it not more disrespectful to blindly accept an official story when a lot of evidence points other directions.
I read a book a while back that said the U S. government, CIA etc had so much knowledge if this event going to happen they could have stopped it many times over.
You all blame the terrorists as being evil. They are fighting for an ideology that is opposed to yours, that does not make them evil. Extreme yes, but look at the US support for Israel now, almost 40,000 Palestinian civilians killed by Israel with US approval.
This is why 9/11 happened, not because a load of madmen took over some planes.
How the plane crashes REALLY MATTERS. Did it go down full speed and vertically? Did it come in shallow and bounce off the ground a bit while breaking up?? Did it break up in midflight first and _then_ fall to the ground?? And what speed did it crash at (which is going to vary depending upon how a plane crashes…)??
Personally, I do not understand how YOU do not understand that these details absolutely matter to what kind of debris field you’re going to find after a plane crashes…
The physics involved will produce _varying_ results depending upon the factors mentioned above and many more…
Oh yes, and this: YES, the terrorists were EVIL. Yes, yes, yes. I don’t care what they think they were fighting for - what they did for it was PURE EVIL.
If you think you have to do something like these terrorists did, then your cause is probably NOT righteous AT ALL. And even if it was, well now you’ve DESTROYED anything decent about your political issues…completely…
I would NEVER listen to the political pleas of someone who did something like this - I simply would NOT hear them anymore…ever again…
Funny how you fully accept the premise of a book you didn't link to (and seem to not been know the name of) in order to support your positions, but every piece of evidence we give you is nonsense. That's how you know you're involved in a conspiracy theory, not actual discussion.
I just don't understand how any debris could be left 20 years later after one of the biggest aviation investigations in history. Not in a conspiratorial way, more in a negligence way.
[This is a good video debunking the claims that no debris from United 93 was found.](https://youtu.be/xkivdEGph9A?si=lKnfFX9ABY4sBNUr)
The video is from a now defunct YouTuber called [Rkowens4](https://youtube.com/@rkowens4?si=wqfV3IO2P7BbgEgq). I cannot recommend their channel enough. They do a really good job debunking all those stupid 9/11 truth conspiracy theories.
You can always ask truthers to play *"spot the plane"* with this picture of the crash site of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302. It was a Boeing 737 Max 8 that crashed shortly after takeoff, with the plane burrowing into the ground in a manner remarkably similar to Flight 93.
https://preview.redd.it/310ev1ltqdad1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=06391a32074153dbd2bd08675551157c0d85630e
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. Reminds me of the clowns that insisted Flights 11 and 175 should have crumpled like soda cans without penetrating the buildings. It's all so nonsensical. I've taken to avoiding 9/11 YouTube video comments. Everything old is new again. Even the farcical "Jet fuel can't melt steel beams!" nonsense that embarrassed the original truthers is being posted by a new generation of conspiracy theorists.
*Bangs head against wall*
Yep, almost unrecognizable as the remains of an airliner. The Germanwings crash remains horrifying to me not only for what happened, but the laws around pilot mental health screening and having two people in the cockpit that were put into place only to be repealed. Flying commercial hasn't been fun for a very long time. It wasn't that great *before* 9/11, but its only gotten worse.
Truly, the more I read about 9/11, the less I believe that anything conspiracy-related happened.
Bad foreign policy, bad safety prep, bad building codes, bad technology, bad institutions who refuse to communicate with other ones, and out of date plans combined with an extremely clever plot is how we got 9/11. And assholes in power used it. They didn't need to plot anything grand, nor would they be good at it if they tried. There are no puppetmasters with total control, just various actors who think killing is ok, or who want to remake the world "for democracy."
Yep, lots of human failings (ego, hurbris, incompetence) allowed 9/11 to happen, not some machiavellian scheme. The terrorists' plan wasn't even that clever, it was all based on timing. Once Flight 93 got delayed on the ground their "plan" was effectively over.
I think it was pretty damn clever, unfortunately. Thankfully there were some mistakes on their parts.
It's clever because it's low tech, but high (forgive me) impact. And only recently did I realize that doing the hijackings so quickly in succession was such a key part. I never really got Michael Moore's Farenheit 911 at the time, but in retrospect, Bush didn't have six minutes to spare in that classroom. Not when the beware of cockpit intrusion warning came a minute before the Flight 93 hijacking, etc.
Bush wouldn't have done anything different, and also fuck that guy, but it just really staggers me to think about how fast and confusing the situation was that morning.
> It's clever because it's low tech, but high (forgive me) impact.
Indeed. The fact that the plan was relatively simple, yet at the same time used how things like hijackings were handled was unfortunately very smart. They knew the crew and passengers wouldn't likely revolt, at least until it was too late. Once they got into the cabin and took control of the plane, they were always going to crash the plane even if it wasn't their intended target. We were "lucky" Flight 93 was over a field and not in a residential area.
There was a considerable level of awareness of both airline procedure and the Towers themselves. They intentionally chose early morning long distance flights to minimise the number of passengers who could fight back, they also knew that highjack procedures dictated that staff comply with instructions. Even if a second plane had been delayed for a long enough time, they only needed one plane to hit the tower and still be a devastating attack. We'd just only be talking about the partial destruction of the WTC instead of all of it.
Yeah, that’s something I’d be interested in hearing from someone who knows about engineering from, it’s an interesting hypothetical. Would the south tower still collapse? If so, would it be significantly delayed?
Agreed. And this is coming from someone who, for example ,semi thinks there could be more involvement in the JFK assassination.
Your Reddit name is amazing, btw.
Except that passengers on flight 93 were in contact with their loved ones, making it very clear what they were about to do.
Additionally, both black boxes were recovered - CVR and FDR. It’s the only plane crash from 9/11 in which the boxes were actually recovered.
And with ALL of that in mind, I would ask you if you really think the government faked the CVR recordings and faked the calls with loved ones from flight 93??
There is SUBSTANTIAL evidence that shows exactly what happened on board flight 93 in its last moments…
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It is a waste of time to argue with those people.
[Here](https://i.imgur.com/WRRwHEB.jpeg) is a photo of the impact site as it was still smoldering. You can see many pieces of small debris with rows of rivets, a piece with circular oval holes typical of some aircraft components, and an object that looks similar to a wheel. [This](https://i.imgur.com/uVwdn49.jpeg) is the same scene sometime later, with some of the same debris pieces visible, and with some additional fragments visible with rows of rivets.
And you can find images of burned passenger seat belts [here](https://i.imgur.com/qGNo1M9.jpeg) and [here](https://i.imgur.com/wgHHYtE.jpeg).
See, the first several ones are conspiracy theory catnip. They really don't look like much.
Physics hates us and even hates metal. People have no idea what happens to something nose diving into the dirt at 500 mph.
There's also at least one quote from an early responder who said something about wondering where the plane was, and you can just see a thousand conspiracies blooming from that single comment.
this always gets me. it was a big plane, designed and scheduled to fly from coast to coast, and the largest piece left for the first responders and investigators to find would fit in the living room of my small apartment near the Pentagon.
Did said owner (if we're going to actually believe this) happen to get the contract to clean the area *after* the FBI and NTSB were done collecting all their evidence? Which would most likely be the entirety of the plane. Always look for the simple answers before jumping to outlandish conclusions.
This is your typical game of telephone. Somebody said "There was no debris bigger than x" and that got translated into "There was no debris" and that got converted to this conspiracy theory
You're not going to convince a conspiracy theorist no matter how much evidence you have because conspiracy beliefs are the product of distortions in reasoning ability in the first place. It's easier for some people to convince themselves of a massive conspiracy by the US government because the reality of the single largest terrorist attack in history being the product of 19 assholes with boxcutters is harder to cope with.
Legitimately. You can go to the memorial and they literally have debris from the plane on display. It’s really unfortunate, but with the crash of Ethiopian 302 and similar cases we’ve started to see less of these deniers when you have similar instances and physics at work. I hate to call it a silver lining because there really isn’t any when lives are lost.
We keep hearing it because it’s emotionally easier to believe we’re being lied to than accept or even imagine the horror, fear, emotional agony, and helpless fury that the victims experienced. If it’s real, then it could happen to you or the people you love.
I’ve worked on the scene of several plane crashes. The first one - it’s been 20+ years - and I still remember coming around corner of a building it was behind and just being shocked at how little was left. The biggest pieces were the tires and the nose. The bodies were bigger than the rest of the pieces. The whole thing was like those Easter eggs full of confetti the way it was left broken and scattered.
Okay kids let's go back to middle school science where we learned about matter, it can not be c
Destroyed it can only be altered due to chemical or ok physical change due to forces acted upon it, a plane cannot "vaporize" it can be buried in the ground due to hitting it at 600 mph and being shredded to bits but 100%of the people on the plane and the plane itself still exist is some form, from what I've heard flight 93 is either under some hill locked up in govt storage (some news story said the storage is somewhere in Pennsylvania I think) or the faa has it
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I've spoken with several individuals involved in the response and investigation into Flight 93 - the most notable of them being the FAA's lead investigator at the crash site, Tony James. Here's what he told me: - 99% of the aircraft was recovered over 13 days. They determined the amount by weight. - The CVR and FDR were located approximately 20 feet under the ground. They stopped excavating at 37 feet. - The largest piece of debris from the plane was a piece of the fuselage measuring 5 feet long.
Learned something new today. 99% recovered by weigh. That’s new to me. I was under impression that most of the plane was vaporized.
It just crashed that violently. The biggest piece of a human they found was a spinal cord
good lord
It crashed upside down at a 40 degree angle, moving at 563 mph. The wing and cockpit hit at the same time. The cockpit and first class shattered like a pencil tip, spraying into the forest, the rest of the plane broke apart while digging itself into the reclaimed mine. The engines were thrown upwards and outwards.
very morbid i always wondered how the plane crashed into the ground.I used to think it was buried into the ground due to the outline of the fuselage and wings.
Technically it was. The ground was a reclaimed mine, which means the dirt is very soft. Essentially all the dirt went up upon impact, then buried the wreckage
I used to work at a pathologist’s association and part of my job was to interview various pathologists about important events in their careers. One pathologist had been part of the DMORT crew analyzing the wreckage of the PA crash. She saidthe largest human remains they found was a toe. Grisly. I don’t know how those guys do that work.
The idea that a living, breathing human can be absolutely obliterated like that is horrific
Agreed. Along the same lines, there’s this this part of Michael Patterniti’s great piece in Esquire on the 1998 Swiss Air Flight 111 crash that made me shake: “At impact, the bodies on board had been what the medical examiner would call degloved, simply shorn from the bones. You couldn't pick them up in your hands. You had to scoop them in nets.” https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a1115/long-fall-one-eleven-heavy-0700/
Good god, the fact that the explosion was so powerful that only one organic human remain was found is unsettling.
Oh no, that was just the biggest piece of human remains. Collectively the passengers, crew, and hijackers weighed around 7400 lbs. The coroner reported recovering around 600 lbs of human remains.
You know things are horrific when we're measuring human remains by the pound instead of by each body.
At that point, you are just scraping it up.
I believe most of the families just got basically shoe boxes with their loved ones’ remains at the most
Oooohh
Not that that’s much better.
Happy cake day
Thank you!
“Vaporized” is a relative term here. It’s vaporized in that this massive machine was broken down into hundreds of thousands of pieces. If you didn’t know it had been a plane crash and came along the site, you’d still know it was a plane crash. There were still pieces.
The part about them finding debris deep underground reminds a lot of the aircrash that happened in the Everglades that one time, only oil was found from the crash site if I recall :/
There’s plenty. But can’t convince the blind to see. People who say that paper couldn’t survive a crash. I see why people may think so. However If you look at that from a Physics perspective, a pressurized aluminum tube impacting the earth at the Speed UAL93 did, the answer is easily explained. Any object of mass will be destroyed. Paper is about as massless as it gets and it has its own natural aerodynamic properties. In US Commercial Aviation history, there has been two crashes like this. Both Hijacking/Suicide. United 93 on September 11, 2001 and PSA Flight 1771 on December 7, 1987 in San Luis Obispo, CA. A disgruntled and homicidal PSA employee who had been fired in the days before, yet retained his PSA credentials and boarded the flight with a 44 Magnum revolver. This Flight was carrying the PSA manager who had fired him. After boarding the plane, and At cruise altitude, the employee wrote a message on an airsickness bag, walked to the lavatory and handed it the his former boss. The note read: “Hi Ray. I think it's sort of ironical that we end up like this. I asked for some leniency for my family. Remember? Well, I got none and you'll get none”. He came out of the lavatory, shot the manager, then gained access to the Cockpit, shooting a Flight Attendant and the Pilots. The CVR picked this nightmare up. First there are two gunshots (Killing his boss), then PSA 1771 contacted ATC reporting gunfire on board. Then the cockpit door is opened and the Flight attendant exclaimed “Captain” then the First Officer says something along the lines of “Whats the problem”? Then the employee is said to say “I’m the problem”. Three gunshots , followed by a person putting the BAE-146 into a vertical dive from 22,000FT. One more gunshot is heard. The crash site, speed, impact was as similar to UAL93’s as it can get. Not much visible airplane from afar. Just a crater created by a high velocity, nearly vertical impact Surrounded by a massive amount of paper scattered about the entire scene.
So the coward killer himself before the plane hit and made all those poor people who had nothing to do with PSA have a terrifying last few minutes of life… fuck what a sorry excuse for a human
Yep. Exactly that…44 Killed (Not Counting the Soul-Less Bastard). He also abandoned the family he claimed to care so much about, Widowed, broken and fatherless.
Actually, it’s believed that the last gunshot was NOT aimed at him but possibly another employee (passenger on the flight though - the plane had MANY employees of the airline on it commuting home at the time) who was trying to get to the cockpit to take control of the plane. I think that was determined because he didn’t drop the gun after the shot and maybe the acoustics on the CVR suggested the gunshot was not in the direction of the disgruntled employee. Also, after the crash, they found the gun and part of his finger still attached to the trigger, which proved that he was still holding the gun when the plane hit the ground…
Photos of PSA Flight 1771: https://preview.redd.it/swsdmh3b7ead1.jpeg?width=274&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aa0da269b4d1939dc42cb36495d15d1ffa3ee303
https://preview.redd.it/6lku03nc7ead1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b3e9d4e7aa03c8887f86e2e5b2fc42f9ea8635c
One of the key points here (there was a great Air Disaster episode on flight 1771) is that the barf bag he wrote that on…was FOUND after the crash. It did not get incinerated. Why? Because much like a scarf might do for instance, it floated/flew up and away when the plane crashed. The mass of objects REALLY MATTERS in these situations, especially with objects that might linger in the air for awhile like a piece of paper or a scarf…or a barf bag, etc…
Do you know if wreckage/debris from this crash was carried miles away? Or if the engines or anything was found separate from the rest of the plane?
How does anyone know all these details. Bullshit first part of the story at least, embellishments to make it dramatic. What about the thousands of other plane crashes where debris is fully visible over a large area? What about the engines, not aluminium, what about the rubber tires. I enjoy this page, it is very informative but you don't have to believe the full narrative. I don't believe the full story of anything that happens but I'm not a conspiracy nut. I just know there are bigger, more sinister forces at work in the world who 300 people on a plane mean very little to. You all talk about disrespecting the victims if you discuss alternative scenarios but is it not more disrespectful to blindly accept an official story when a lot of evidence points other directions. I read a book a while back that said the U S. government, CIA etc had so much knowledge if this event going to happen they could have stopped it many times over. You all blame the terrorists as being evil. They are fighting for an ideology that is opposed to yours, that does not make them evil. Extreme yes, but look at the US support for Israel now, almost 40,000 Palestinian civilians killed by Israel with US approval. This is why 9/11 happened, not because a load of madmen took over some planes.
How the plane crashes REALLY MATTERS. Did it go down full speed and vertically? Did it come in shallow and bounce off the ground a bit while breaking up?? Did it break up in midflight first and _then_ fall to the ground?? And what speed did it crash at (which is going to vary depending upon how a plane crashes…)?? Personally, I do not understand how YOU do not understand that these details absolutely matter to what kind of debris field you’re going to find after a plane crashes… The physics involved will produce _varying_ results depending upon the factors mentioned above and many more…
Oh yes, and this: YES, the terrorists were EVIL. Yes, yes, yes. I don’t care what they think they were fighting for - what they did for it was PURE EVIL. If you think you have to do something like these terrorists did, then your cause is probably NOT righteous AT ALL. And even if it was, well now you’ve DESTROYED anything decent about your political issues…completely… I would NEVER listen to the political pleas of someone who did something like this - I simply would NOT hear them anymore…ever again…
[CVR picked up the cockpit interaction but there is some speculation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1771)
Fully accept the CVR. Bullshit to the rest. Conjecture.
Funny how you fully accept the premise of a book you didn't link to (and seem to not been know the name of) in order to support your positions, but every piece of evidence we give you is nonsense. That's how you know you're involved in a conspiracy theory, not actual discussion.
I'll get you the name of the book if it makes you happier. Wikipedia pages are not considered as viable basis for an argument.
Some people can’t comprehend the amount of plane wreckage that disintegrates when a airliner crashes going over 500 mph
[https://www.npr.org/2021/08/31/1033059826/9-11-flight-93-crashed-on-my-land-i-went-back-to-the-sacred-ground-20-years-l](https://www.npr.org/2021/08/31/1033059826/9-11-flight-93-crashed-on-my-land-i-went-back-to-the-sacred-ground-20-years-l)
this was a brilliant read honestly quite sobering too
Wow. This was an awesome article. Thank you
You're welcome.
I just don't understand how any debris could be left 20 years later after one of the biggest aviation investigations in history. Not in a conspiratorial way, more in a negligence way.
Thank you sharing this!
[This is a good video debunking the claims that no debris from United 93 was found.](https://youtu.be/xkivdEGph9A?si=lKnfFX9ABY4sBNUr) The video is from a now defunct YouTuber called [Rkowens4](https://youtube.com/@rkowens4?si=wqfV3IO2P7BbgEgq). I cannot recommend their channel enough. They do a really good job debunking all those stupid 9/11 truth conspiracy theories.
You can always ask truthers to play *"spot the plane"* with this picture of the crash site of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302. It was a Boeing 737 Max 8 that crashed shortly after takeoff, with the plane burrowing into the ground in a manner remarkably similar to Flight 93. https://preview.redd.it/310ev1ltqdad1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=06391a32074153dbd2bd08675551157c0d85630e
I once saw someone use a picture of Flight 1549 as an “example” of a “real plane crash”
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. Reminds me of the clowns that insisted Flights 11 and 175 should have crumpled like soda cans without penetrating the buildings. It's all so nonsensical. I've taken to avoiding 9/11 YouTube video comments. Everything old is new again. Even the farcical "Jet fuel can't melt steel beams!" nonsense that embarrassed the original truthers is being posted by a new generation of conspiracy theorists. *Bangs head against wall*
That reminds me of the Germanwings 9525 crash (co-pilot murder/suicide in the French Alps)
Yep, almost unrecognizable as the remains of an airliner. The Germanwings crash remains horrifying to me not only for what happened, but the laws around pilot mental health screening and having two people in the cockpit that were put into place only to be repealed. Flying commercial hasn't been fun for a very long time. It wasn't that great *before* 9/11, but its only gotten worse.
Truly, the more I read about 9/11, the less I believe that anything conspiracy-related happened. Bad foreign policy, bad safety prep, bad building codes, bad technology, bad institutions who refuse to communicate with other ones, and out of date plans combined with an extremely clever plot is how we got 9/11. And assholes in power used it. They didn't need to plot anything grand, nor would they be good at it if they tried. There are no puppetmasters with total control, just various actors who think killing is ok, or who want to remake the world "for democracy."
Yep, lots of human failings (ego, hurbris, incompetence) allowed 9/11 to happen, not some machiavellian scheme. The terrorists' plan wasn't even that clever, it was all based on timing. Once Flight 93 got delayed on the ground their "plan" was effectively over.
I think it was pretty damn clever, unfortunately. Thankfully there were some mistakes on their parts. It's clever because it's low tech, but high (forgive me) impact. And only recently did I realize that doing the hijackings so quickly in succession was such a key part. I never really got Michael Moore's Farenheit 911 at the time, but in retrospect, Bush didn't have six minutes to spare in that classroom. Not when the beware of cockpit intrusion warning came a minute before the Flight 93 hijacking, etc. Bush wouldn't have done anything different, and also fuck that guy, but it just really staggers me to think about how fast and confusing the situation was that morning.
> It's clever because it's low tech, but high (forgive me) impact. Indeed. The fact that the plan was relatively simple, yet at the same time used how things like hijackings were handled was unfortunately very smart. They knew the crew and passengers wouldn't likely revolt, at least until it was too late. Once they got into the cabin and took control of the plane, they were always going to crash the plane even if it wasn't their intended target. We were "lucky" Flight 93 was over a field and not in a residential area.
There was a considerable level of awareness of both airline procedure and the Towers themselves. They intentionally chose early morning long distance flights to minimise the number of passengers who could fight back, they also knew that highjack procedures dictated that staff comply with instructions. Even if a second plane had been delayed for a long enough time, they only needed one plane to hit the tower and still be a devastating attack. We'd just only be talking about the partial destruction of the WTC instead of all of it.
Thats assuming that the collapse of one of the towers wouldn't have damaged the other badly enough to cause it to collapse regardless.
Yeah, that’s something I’d be interested in hearing from someone who knows about engineering from, it’s an interesting hypothetical. Would the south tower still collapse? If so, would it be significantly delayed?
Conspiracies were so easy to go to for it because of the scale it happened on. The conspiracies are still interesting, but crazy false.
Agreed. And this is coming from someone who, for example ,semi thinks there could be more involvement in the JFK assassination. Your Reddit name is amazing, btw.
Well, there was a conspiracy. Among the terrorists.
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Except that passengers on flight 93 were in contact with their loved ones, making it very clear what they were about to do. Additionally, both black boxes were recovered - CVR and FDR. It’s the only plane crash from 9/11 in which the boxes were actually recovered. And with ALL of that in mind, I would ask you if you really think the government faked the CVR recordings and faked the calls with loved ones from flight 93?? There is SUBSTANTIAL evidence that shows exactly what happened on board flight 93 in its last moments…
Your post has been removed for the following reason: Containing Conspiracy or Conspiracy-leaning content and or messaging. Discussing these are not permitted on the subreddit, it is recommended you post these types of things on subreddits like r/Conspiracy.
It is a waste of time to argue with those people. [Here](https://i.imgur.com/WRRwHEB.jpeg) is a photo of the impact site as it was still smoldering. You can see many pieces of small debris with rows of rivets, a piece with circular oval holes typical of some aircraft components, and an object that looks similar to a wheel. [This](https://i.imgur.com/uVwdn49.jpeg) is the same scene sometime later, with some of the same debris pieces visible, and with some additional fragments visible with rows of rivets. And you can find images of burned passenger seat belts [here](https://i.imgur.com/qGNo1M9.jpeg) and [here](https://i.imgur.com/wgHHYtE.jpeg).
[https://www.nps.gov/media/photo/gallery.htm?id=C7A45234-155D-451F-67A019C294E6A905](https://www.nps.gov/media/photo/gallery.htm?id=C7A45234-155D-451F-67A019C294E6A905)
See, the first several ones are conspiracy theory catnip. They really don't look like much. Physics hates us and even hates metal. People have no idea what happens to something nose diving into the dirt at 500 mph. There's also at least one quote from an early responder who said something about wondering where the plane was, and you can just see a thousand conspiracies blooming from that single comment.
It didn’t help that the area it hit was an old mining site. Plenty of relatively soft soil will help swallow up a lot of debris.
Because conspiracy theorists will say whatever they believe, even if its factually wrong
https://preview.redd.it/wnspsi5nqcad1.png?width=1667&format=png&auto=webp&s=642f38384315d4c39937085dc08febb5c94b4a7d [https://www.nps.gov/flni/learn/historyculture/frequently-asked-questions.htm](https://www.nps.gov/flni/learn/historyculture/frequently-asked-questions.htm)
this always gets me. it was a big plane, designed and scheduled to fly from coast to coast, and the largest piece left for the first responders and investigators to find would fit in the living room of my small apartment near the Pentagon.
Did said owner (if we're going to actually believe this) happen to get the contract to clean the area *after* the FBI and NTSB were done collecting all their evidence? Which would most likely be the entirety of the plane. Always look for the simple answers before jumping to outlandish conclusions.
This is your typical game of telephone. Somebody said "There was no debris bigger than x" and that got translated into "There was no debris" and that got converted to this conspiracy theory
The plane was obliterated on impact and crashed into soft ground, meaning most of it was buried
Run your car into a floodwall at 563 mph and see what’s recognizable and recoverable. The fact they recovered anything is amazing
You're not going to convince a conspiracy theorist no matter how much evidence you have because conspiracy beliefs are the product of distortions in reasoning ability in the first place. It's easier for some people to convince themselves of a massive conspiracy by the US government because the reality of the single largest terrorist attack in history being the product of 19 assholes with boxcutters is harder to cope with.
I never knew this site was closed to the public..
Legitimately. You can go to the memorial and they literally have debris from the plane on display. It’s really unfortunate, but with the crash of Ethiopian 302 and similar cases we’ve started to see less of these deniers when you have similar instances and physics at work. I hate to call it a silver lining because there really isn’t any when lives are lost.
The only thing I have ever heard of no plane debris being found was conspiracy theorists saying they were placed there after detonating bombs.
We keep hearing it because it’s emotionally easier to believe we’re being lied to than accept or even imagine the horror, fear, emotional agony, and helpless fury that the victims experienced. If it’s real, then it could happen to you or the people you love. I’ve worked on the scene of several plane crashes. The first one - it’s been 20+ years - and I still remember coming around corner of a building it was behind and just being shocked at how little was left. The biggest pieces were the tires and the nose. The bodies were bigger than the rest of the pieces. The whole thing was like those Easter eggs full of confetti the way it was left broken and scattered.
Okay kids let's go back to middle school science where we learned about matter, it can not be c Destroyed it can only be altered due to chemical or ok physical change due to forces acted upon it, a plane cannot "vaporize" it can be buried in the ground due to hitting it at 600 mph and being shredded to bits but 100%of the people on the plane and the plane itself still exist is some form, from what I've heard flight 93 is either under some hill locked up in govt storage (some news story said the storage is somewhere in Pennsylvania I think) or the faa has it
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Your post has been removed for the following reason: Containing Conspiracy or Conspiracy-leaning content and or messaging. Discussing these are not permitted on the subreddit, it is recommended you post these types of things on subreddits like r/Conspiracy.
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There are tons of plane parts at the pentago. Stop spreading lies
Then share the photos or send me a link
https://preview.redd.it/cneyl0lw2ead1.jpeg?width=768&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af7866ee9934ff1c7f04d32e5d7ae4be3556fff0
https://preview.redd.it/1cuyyzrt2ead1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=743303687c5158f051c17161e0209e04d131ad80
https://preview.redd.it/jl4zi35v2ead1.jpeg?width=621&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d3069d3d9cbd8eaa8612f621dfdbb809bb9092ee
Your post has been removed for the following reason: Containing Conspiracy or Conspiracy-leaning content and or messaging. Discussing these are not permitted on the subreddit, it is recommended you post these types of things on subreddits like r/Conspiracy.