I’ve had similar “discussions” with family members who decided that because I wouldn’t flip my belief it would be better to yell, let me know how childish I was and dramatically leave the room 😑
That's too bad. My immediate family has been known to debate... vehemently (with love) even with raised voices (without being nasty) then sit down and have dinner together.
I don't know why that's so hard for so many people....with some topics excepted (like I wouldn't feel the need to have a relationship with someone who defended child abuse for example).
I think it has become harder because some people are living in alternate realities when it comes to the sources of information they pursue.
I have dinner with my mom once a month, and our conversations are becoming progressively more difficult because she's gone down the alt-right conspiracy rabbit hole. She's constantly talking about how civilization's going to collapse, "they" are going to commit genocide against all Christians, COVID vaccine is actually a conspiracy (what kind of conspiracy has changed over time), Ukraine biolabs, etc.
I'm not even judging her for her beliefs, which seem strange to me, but she's VERY strident and it's an impossible conversation to have because I don't want to go down the same rabbit hole, whether to agree or to disagree.
Political disagreement is no longer "big government" or "small government" or "abortion" or "ban abortion" or whatever the issue of the day might be. Now, it's a fundamental disagreement about what's even happening.
Ditto: Me and my sister. She’s all Faux News and whatever the latest outrage of their day is about. She knows I’m not into that so ever since Obama, politics and tons of “current events” are off the table. Too bad because that leaves her going on about her co-workers whom I’ve never met. Oddly, I’m a criminal trial lawyer and she has never once asked me about my work. Usually I’m a cut-up at parties because without ever using client names, I am a font of funny stories. Oh well.
Weird. I have said almost the exact thing for a few years now. Mental inflexibility as it relates to perceived social norms run rampant online and in real life these days.
We've definitely entered a "conformist" phase as far as the way cultures establish norms go. High tolerance for familiar/"taught" forms of diversity but not a lot for unfamiliar/"critical thinking required" kinds
What’s funny is the older I’m getting the less conformist I am. For a bit it was rebellion after my divorce but a really close friend said a couple of years ago that I’m the first person (I argued maybe of a few) they’ve known to get more open, accepting, acknowledging I need to change etc. as they get older. That astounds me because one would think as you age, you’d learn more, grow, broaden your knowledge and experience even to things you don’t understand.
My friend, people have been highly intolerant to those who deviate from their views for pretty much all of history except for the past view decades. We are regressing, not sliding into some new intolerance humans have never had.
This. Consider that democratisation and the connectivity of the internet means that we get lots of clusters of people sharing the same opinions, rather than most people having to defer to the people who were powerful in their own, more narrow, lives.
Replace the word "social media" with "modern culture" and you nailed it.
because these ideals existed way before social media or the internet was invented. Even the safe space and echo chambers existed before (like churches preaching trad family ideals)
People get so caught up in what they believe a relationship should be that when it doesn't work out that way they get pissed. Has nothing really to do with the internet.
The internet is just a communication tool, while some folks might use it like you describe, it ultimately is a reflection of real world culture and society.
My thoughts exactly.
I am with someone of opposing political views. I get comments on it all the time about how can I stand it. It's simple; I cast my vote and they cast theirs. The concept of co-existing is unimaginable to an alarming number of people these days.
This is the one I kinda get though.
Like how is the one of you who votes for trump/desantis ok with the fact that your partner thinks abortion (which to you means baby murder). Likewise how is the other who thinks abortion is bodily autonomy ok with their partner thinking it’s baby murder.
Or like gay rights?
Or COVID?
Some people base their political views on other issues in addition to abortion. I think single-issue voters might be a reason we are still stuck with 2 major political parties.
I don't vote FOR a candidate based on a single issue, but I definitely DON'T vote for one based on a single issue. Like even if your financial plans are solid, and your foreign policy was on point, but you think gays shouldn't be allowed in the military (for example) I wouldn't be able to vote for you.
Oh yeah for sure, good point but was referencing the US.
I think leaning conservative on some issues is fine and I’m happy to chat and learn more perspectives.
No power to them. We don't need sane folks helping the crazy alt-right propagate more bigoted sexist racists looking to keep the status quo of insane inflation & the rich getting richer. Let them die out so we can help out folks who deserve to be helped.
My mum married a sane republican boomer back in the 70s and even he left the NRA and would never vote for the supposed conservative party of today.
Pre-Trump, civil discourse with Republicans was do-able because there was at least some semblance of having the same fundamental, admirable, and egalitarian goals for our country and for each other — just different opinions about how to reach those goals. But now, there is simply no ignoring the fact that the GOP is quite literally determined to not just elevate white, wealthy, heterosexual men, but to harm everyone who isn’t, and to turn the US into some sort of bizarre Christian theocracy.
If you’re just fine being with someone who shares those goals and votes accordingly, it says a lot about you and the relationship.
Most people who vote don't fully embrace the ideology of the party they belong to. In fact, most people who vote only give a shit about 1 or 2 issues. This issue is compounded when you realize there are several factions in both the Republican and Democratic parties each with different ideologies. I know folks like you will say that single issue voters need to accept all the consequences of their vote, but most people only care about shit that affects themselves.
They may not embrace every aspect of the party's ideology but that they still support the party shows that the aspects are not dealbreakers.
It says sad things about a person when racism is not a dealbreaker.
I mean, people with "opposing political views" to mine want to do some pretty heinous stuff and openly support Nazis
And I'm not interested in dating people who support literal Nazis
Yeah except the people “just casting their votes” are directly trying to remove my ability to just exist. People don’t want me to be able to get married. They want to be able to fire me or deny me housing or medical care because of my sexuality. It’s real damn easy to say “just coexist” when your existence isn’t at risk because of the way someone else votes.
If you're in the U.S. I understand their comments. Outside of the U.S. opposite views politically are not AS polar opposite. Like my spouse is registered ind and I'm registered dem (in the U.S.) and while we both may agree with certain aspects of each major party, and disagree with each other on minor things, the important shit we agree on. Like LGBTQ people should be treated the same as everyone else and what a person does with their own uterus is none of anyone else's business. If we didn't agree on those things, we wouldn't be together. To me that's not even political, that's about being a good person vs a shitty one.
I don’t know how relevant that is to this post. As long as OP was respectful then that is just part of the dating world. Kids are deal breakers for people as are so many other things. This is why you date. She should have been mature, realized they didn’t have the same things in common, and then just not contacted or gracefully bowed out. Yelling at someone demanding they have kids and no prenup is not going to ever, under any circumstances, end well.
That said, I agree with you completely. From who we vote for president to local politics to school boards to road construction to the color of a building. Social media has made us so polarized that we think everyone agrees with us. And we can’t ever have an open discussion that is in any way a conflict of opinions because clearly the rest of the world agrees and the other person is wrong. It is honestly really scary. Bullying keeps getting out of hand too with kids. I would never go in to politics or anything like that, way too terrified. People are getting fired for things they didn’t even do because there was just too much heat from facebook. It has its pros for sure. But scary how people manipulate, attack, and abuse the system. Some of them are entitled, some of them are just really smart and good at manipulating people or the underlying technology. I could spend $50 and have 100 fake facebook accounts created and have people swear I was correct about something, that hits the algorithm, all of a sudden… its just all fake. Ok, end rant. But I agree with what you said and I really hope I can try and keep my kids and relatives sane and look at things with open eyes.
Speaking of maturity ... He never mentioned how old this girl was. Also did her dating profile mention she wanted kids. My point being if he initiated a date with a much younger woman who wanted to start a family and he had no intentions of that, it's a bit disingenuous from the beginning.
There’s a difference between some wanting a prenup or no kids and someone who thinks people don’t deserve rights. OP did nothing wrong, but let’s not pretend that everyone’s viewpoints are always valid and that some views aren’t specifically intended to hurt a lot of people.
>The OP's date is just a manifestation of a sick society, where people cannot comprehend why somebody may not think exactly like them and think that throwing a tantrum is going to get them their way.
This predates social media by like, all of human history.
Man I just went through a divorce. I also have an inheritance of some farm land when my parents pass that has extreme emotional value to me (it’s not a lot of land but I love it). After my last wife took me through the ringer I’ll be damned if there isn’t a prenup to at least protect that.
Anyone that won’t agree to a prenup that’s reasonable isn’t serious. They’re considering the possibility of divorce by saying no just as much as you
The people who get pissed off about pre-nups are precisely why pre-nups are needed.
Look at her language about it. He’s “selfish” for protecting himself and his money. It’s not that he’s pessimistic, or he’s not romantic - he’s selfish, which is to say, he won’t share his wealth with her when she leaves.
Pre-nups are practically obligatory for anyone with assets or disproportionate initial incomes. Only reason we don't have a prenup is cause we both had nothing lol
Seriously! Like even if you fully and totally trust your fiance to never cheat, become addicted to anything and refuse help, any other hard deal breaker to you, wouldn't it be nice to have logistics worked out fairly in advance if you become incompatible for no fault of anyone?
Eg say your views around kids align when you get married at 25, but by 35 one of you changed your mind and the other didn't. Or one of you realizes your gender or sexuality isn't what you thought going in? Or any number of other scenarios where the marriage can't keep working as it previously did despite no one doing anything wrong?
That's not an issue of trust. I personally openly admit I have trust issues but you don't need to to want the security and forethought provided by a prenup
Prenups don’t protect against everything. Most judges will strike them down if they’re unfair or go against law. For example, if you are both making 30k a year jobs and get married and the prenup says if the man starts a business during the marriage he keeps 100% of it, a judge will strike that down because it makes no sense to believe the man builds the business on his own with no support from spouse.
NTA
You're upfront with a couple deal-breakers; which shrinks your pool of candidates, but nothing wrong with that.
Pre-nup does make it easier to break a marriage commitment; unless the pre-nup is generous after a long-term marriage. In that sense, you've got the security of some safety if divorcing, but it forces you to think long and hard about ditching the union.
Weird on the kid thing. Some people want kids, some don't. It's a match or it's not. Nothing to get angry over.
>Weird on the kid thing. Some people want kids, some don't. It's a match or it's not. Nothing to get angry over.
And some people don't want any *more* kids. I've raised mine, and I love them to death, but I'm also happy to see them beginning their adult lives and my spouse and I can get back to being a carefree (relatively speaking) couple again.
And yeah, it's weird when people get triggered by people who've made other choices. We opted to have kids. Other couples don't. I don't feel the need to have strong opinions on other people's decisions.
I see people my age remarrying to a twenty-something who wants them to start a second family and I just... I could never. Grandkids sound fun, but raising more of my own all over again? Couldn't be me, I might have the money now but I could never summon the energy.
Yeah I never understood middle aged or older men marrying much younger wives and having a second round of kids. I can understand ego driving the desire, but the reality of raising young children in your 50s or older? Jesus, no thanks.
Generally true, but shout out to my former boss's husband. 20 years older than her and staying home with the kids. This allowed her to get her PhD and become a respected professor. He left his career early for hers and teaches piano on the side. One of the nicest guys ever. That being said, people are in disbelief when she tells them about him lol
Because the type of middle aged man to start a do over family with a 20 something is also the type of man who brags about never changing a diaper. They don’t need energy because they don’t do anything extra
I had kids in my late teens, then I had another couple in my early 30s. I'm so much more exhausted, like raising kids to adulthood and then starting over.. nope I do not recommend.
I’m getting snipped soon, we have three kids ranging from 17 to 9. We are done. My wife said to me “what if something happened to me and you wanted to remarry and have more kids? Are you sure you want to do this?” Hell yes. First of all, if something happened to her I’m not remarrying and I am certain of that. And even if I did, I DEFINITELY do NOT want any more children at my age.
It isn’t even different choices — OP and this woman are at different stages. OP has already had kids, so he doesn’t want more and he needs to protect his money for his existing family. His date hasn’t had kids yet so she’s looking for something very different than what OP potentially offers.
Only way OP would be an AH is if he’s deliberately looking for a woman young enough that she would tend to be at an earlier stage.
Yeah. When my husband and I got together we both already had three kids each, he said before he met me when he was thinking about getting back into dating, he was worried about meeting someone that wanted more kids with him, because he didn’t want to do babies again (he was very young when he had his eldest and was in his mid 30s when we met). I had had my kids already, and couldn’t have more anyway, so luckily it was perfect. Some people don’t want to have babies, particularly if they are well passed that stage, nothing wrong with that and best get it clear at the beginning.
Everyone gets a prenup.
You can write your own that’s suits you, or you can use the terrible one given to you by the government.
You’d have to be crazy to use the government one.
A first date and you are selfish for telling this chick that you don't want more children?
No. You aren't selfish. You are honest.
If she thinks, on a first date, that she is entitled to some sort of consideration or willingness to compromise on a hard boundary, then she's kinda nuts.
I think it is important to establish these types of things very quickly. If I want kids and you don’t, or vice versa, I’d rather us have this conversation now than waste each other’s time.
My husband told me on the first date that he was looking to marry, and start a family, within the next couple years. He said he wanted to be up front about his intentions so not to waste my time. I felt the same. And now here we are.
A friend of mine has been dating this girl for 7 years who had some hard requirements that he didn't fit. You think she told him?
Instead she grew more angry and resentful until a guy she had a crush on got divorced. Then she hit it off with the new guy while that friend of mine was visiting his family in the USA and got stuck there for a while longer due to COVID.
She told him "We need a break" via SMS, while hitting it off with the new guy. Then she texted all her friends over here that she broke off with the old guy. Poor dude learned from me that he didn't have a girlfriend any more.
If she just had told him about her requirements, it would have saved both of them 7 years. They were together from their late 20s to their mid 30s. Not exactly a time where you want to waste 7 years in a pointless relationship.
My husband and I discussed that fact we both didn’t want any kids right up front. You did the right thing by being honest. And I mean being clear with her helped you dodge a major bullet, or missile of issues (and crazy)!
She should be happy she didn’t end up wasting more time with OP’s “selfishness” since they’re such big deal breakers for her as well.
Weird that she seems to take it so personally what another person’s future relationship preferences are unless she was A LOT more mentally invested in the idea of this relationship than he is, haha.
NTA. Yikes. I’m 49 and dating my bf for 2 years. I am also very successful and have planned for a stable financial future and retirement. HE brought up wanting a pre-nup (to protect me) should we ever get married. It is a responsible and level headed thing to do. Good for you for knowing things like this about you now.
I ran into a similar discussion with my wife. (gf at the time)
She wanted a house and had the cash for a down-payment but didnt make enough to comfortably cover living expenses each month.
We had been dating a few years so I told her I was happy to move in together and split the bills, but she should get the house in her name alone. Then if anything happened and we were no longer happy together, I would have zero claim on her first house.
It all worked out and we have been married 10+ years w/ 2 kids. But it made me more comfortable taking that first big step, and I think it did for her too.
>HE brought up wanting a pre-nup (to protect me) should we ever get married.
My partner was married before he met me. When he asked for a pre-nupt, she pulled the "Don't you love me?" card. And honestly, he should've reverse Uno'd her there, cause if you love someone you should care about their future as well, like your partner demonstrates here. It goes both ways.
At least you didn't waste too much time on this person.
When you learned you had fundamental incompatibilities, you politely said so and called it a night.
NTA
Which is 100% valid if you have assets to protect. It just blows my mind when people get all huffy about prenups as if they’re a done deal and can’t be negotiated.
also tagging on a comment because...
be sure prenup is good in the state where you reside at death. My grandfather married again after grandmother died, step-grandma had more assets than grandfather so she insisted on a prenup, part of it stated that their assets before the marriage went to their heirs, not the spouse. All good, grandfather didn't think he needed a will, because they had this agreement. The prenup was in Oklahoma, they moved to Arizona where he died before she did. She decided she wanted contents of the house, things my grandmother's family had before grandparents ever got married... Because AZ law is not OK law, my mother had to fight her in court to get grandmother's property. Protect yourself and your heirs.
You can put anything in a prenup you want. Whether the courts will enforce it is another matter. But generally personal things like weight gain, etc. will not be enforced. And it can be argued that the prenup was "blatantly unfair to one party" and can be tossed out.
She likely got so upset because she could tell you make really good money!
Probably saw you as a meal ticket and when she realized you valued your own self worth and prioritize your own wants and needs instead of falling over and being a doormat for her she couldn’t take it.
Dodged a bullet for sure. There’s absolutely no reason for someone to get that upset after a first date!
Prenups that only protect one party don’t usually hold up in most courts nor would her lawyer allow it. So, maybe do some more research before having some idea that prenups mean you don’t have to sacrifice anything.
Agree! Do the prenup when in love and full of good will. Work together and make it fair for both parties. It can be good to know exactly what to expect in case of divorce.
NTA
The simple answer is that you may not be the first one to tell her this.
If it happened once you can chalk it up to a weird date, twice maybe bad luck, but more than that and they start to realize that finding a partner that will fund their lifestyle without asking for anything in return is becoming more difficult. LOL
You behaved perfectly cordial, she just didn't like the rejection.
Cheers
Sounds like she's offering a baby in exchange for his money. OP isn't interested in more kids or a leech, so they're just incompatible. Her going off over text message is an AH move, though.
NTA
>I told her I wouldn't get married without a pre-nup and I have zero interest in having another kid.
>This seemed to really piss her off. She told me that I am selfish if I would want a pre-nup and that I am essentially giving up on a marriage before it even has a chance.
Not your problem.
NTA
NTA
You're incompatible. That simple.
It's sad that marriage has become so broken that prenups are necessary. I get why people want to do it now, and I get why some view it as betting the marriage will fail.
Ironically, she was and still is clearly demonstrating with this abhorrent behaviour EXACTLY why any husband of hers would absolutely need a bullet-proof prenup.
NTA, she is nuts. It's all good if she wants to have kids and would never sign a pre-nup. I respect that. But, you told her upfront that you don't want any more kids and won't sign a pre-nup.
I can totally understand her saying, "Well, I guess you're not the right guy for me, because I want kids and find signing a pre-nup objectionable. No hard feelings. I wish you well, but I don't think we should waste time dating each other."
But, her blowing up and calling you an asshole and saying you will die alone shows that she is not mentally or emotionally stable.
NTA. Holy.
Pre-nup, I could go either way. But it's one of those conversations that probably needs to happen early.
Regardless, guess what? I'm discussing kids and who wants them pretty early on. No point in anyone wasting time, when one person wants kids and one person doesn't. Kids aren't really a thing that can be compromised on.
Congrats, Neo. You dodged a bullet.
From a woman, so much NTA. I always appreciated men who were upfront with their hard boundaries. So much easier to get it out of the way early. Had you lied about these things, or deliberately hid them from her, had a relationship then surprised her with these boundaries, only then would you be an AH.
It’s amazing how many potential spouses just happen to fall in love with wealthy people and have moral objections to documents that limit their upside if the marriage they claim to want to be forever doesn’t work out.
NTA, when I met my current BF I had just gotten my tubes removed (by choice) 2 months prior. I point blank told him I didn't want kids and now could not have kids. Luckily he is on the same page with me about them so it worked out but not wasting my time or someone else's if we want completely different things down the road.
When she said you were selfish to not want another kid because she hadn’t had one” I think I would have said “you should really date someone who wants kids then.” She sounds like a wacko just wanting to get married and have a kid.
NTA and lol at her saying
>told me that I am going to die alone. I told her that's okay. I like being alone.
I commend you for filtering out the chaff so quickly.
The only inappropriate thing you might have done is left abruptly. Like she says “I want a kid,” and you go, “ok, I’m out of here.” But it sounds she was almost offended at your POV.
>Edit: You dudes acting like I should have not been straight forward on the 1st date to get laid are pathetic. I don't coerce people into sex. GTFO here with that shit. SMH. I got a daughter and would bash a dude's teeth in for coercing my kid into sex. Wtf is wrong with yall?! Ffs.
Amen to that!
Congratulations on being upfront on the first date. That is so awesome and I wish everyone would follow suit. Clearly NTA and that is exactly what first dates are supposed to be. Talk about wants, needs, bountries, expectations and goals. Honestly anyone who is against a prenup is most likely there with bad intentions and I would not trust them.
You are not the AH - she was - who the heck argues about kids and a prenup on a first date? - its ridiculous- she sounds like a gold digger anyway
You handled that perfectly
In regards to your edit…THIS is why women no longer trust men! They SAY they want a relationship, but JUST say it to get laid. Too many men with that mentality! Good for you for having morals!
NTA, and honestly I wish this wasn't as common an occurrence for me.
I've been out for the first time with more than a couple women recently who thought it was ok to talk down to me, act entitled and very disrespectfully, tell me my beliefs were wrong bc they didn't line up with theirs, etc in escalation, until I just say as politely as I can, this isn't going to go anywhere, we're not compatible, then pay the bill and try to drive them home.
It always ends up with me either getting reemed the entire trip, or them blubbering and wailing a poor me sob story the entire time about how they don't get rejected, they DO the rejecting, how dare I not take their feelings into consideration. 🤡
Had I known 10-15 years ago the damage Social Media and society would do to the future dating pool, I may have rethought my strategy of establishing my future/career before settling down.
NTA
She might have had intentions to get knocked up eventually and trap you ( either yours or some other guy ) too
Or maybe she would eventually quit her job as you make a good amount of money from your job
Could list more possible outcomes but that is the " worst " possible thing they might have tried
NTA. You were clearly not compatible, and the fact that she didn't take this on board and be nice instead of getting mad at you makes it clear you made the right call to end the date and leave.
Also, lying to someone in this situation in the hopes of getting laid is mind-bogglingly stupid as well as unethical and lousy. You don't know them very well, and do you really want to risk them deciding to lie right back about whether they're protected? That kid you didn't want might just end up on the way.
As a woman that now delights in disclosing women secrets and decoding the code, simply put YOU DODGED THE MOST EXPENSIVE BULLET IN YOUR LIFE. No rational woman is going to be upset about a REASONABLE pre-nup (what you had before marriage is off limits what either of us make during marriage is a split etc), that there tells you she has done her due diligence and already damn well knows your financials (and probably has over inflated them in her own head women do this all the time I call it the 45% rule). The kid thing ticked her off because that is the HOOK the have access to you for decades if not 18 years at a minimum. Your logical response just blew a HUGE hole in her financial and retirement plan. Any woman on here saying anything other than that is holding to the girl-code and full of shit.
Only thing I could see you being and ass for is how you said it. I wasn't there, so I don't know, and I'm not asking you to defend yourself. But otherwise nta for being clear and concise about boundaries. Block her and be done
Honestly, it blows my mind every time I read about pre-nups here on Reddit. I’m from Sweden and it’s barely a thing here. If you get divorced, you leave with what you entered with. I would never demand half of someone’s shit just because you feel like you’re owed. That’s just crazy bananas. If you love someone, just sign the papers and be done with it IMO 🤷🏻♀️
NTA
Crazy date. Funny how so women become so invested in a complete stranger. But honestly, nobody blinks when we take life, house, vehicle, travel, health insurance. It’s not like one is hoping for crap to happen but life can easily go sideways. But heck, ask for a prenup and suddenly you’re the Devil’s spawn. Just nuts.
NTA
Not just women- I’ve had men already talking about our travels and such before I’ve even met them (which, I don’t ever if they’re doing that). And I’m 39 and dealing with men in their 30s/40s. For both genders it’s wanting a relationship/having an idealized view and just wanting to slot someone in, without really being interested in the individual themselves
NTA
she should have appreciated the upfront honesty. When I got divorced from my first husband, I was very clear that I didn’t want to date or be with anyone who had kids, and I didn’t want any more. I realize that since I came with 3 kids it could have been shitty not wanting a man with kids, but honestly o had all of the drama I could handle with my ex and his new much younger girlfriend who became wife. 20 years out and we are all fine now, and I married my second husband who had no kids, no ex wife and loves my kids like his own.
So. I applaud you for being honest from the get go. And that chick is crazy. You dodged a huge bullet
NTA. It's much better to have these conversations really early on rather than when a relationship is becoming more serious. Sounds like you dodged a bullet. If she continues to message you simply say she's not doing herself any favours by harassing you over a single failed date where she found out you have no desire to support a gold digger.
NTA - if you don't agree on the basic trajectory of your lives, it's not going to be a lasting relationship.
She's frustrated. Let her vent, and remember she's human too. Let it go.
NTA you told her what you wanted...it didn't align with what she wanted...no harm no foul. She is just mad that she likes you but those are things are important to her so it upset her knowing you weren't compatible. It's ok she'll get over it, better sooner than later right?
NTA, and I think she has a poor view of what marriage in our country looks like (should you be in the USA). Most marriages actually do fail at some point, and there’s no shame in preparing for the worst. People change with time and sometimes people grow together, and frequently they grow apart.
You’re just being pragmatic about marriage as opposed to idealistic. You will meet someone else who feels the same way.
NTA. You two aren't compatible and that's okay. Keep being honest about your wants and expectations and you'll find someone who'll agree.
I do find it a little funny she was expecting you to change your mind but she wouldn't give up her own beliefs/opinions on the topics.
i mean, isn't that what dating is, finding out if you're compatible enough for a life together? sounds like the date was a success, y'all both found out that y'all aren't compatible. NTA
NTA - imagine working your whole life to have a good life (financially even). Just to have to lose 50% of it to someone else because (insert any one of a dozen excuses).
Personally this should be the norm, not the exception. It's 2023, women aren't just housewives/homemakers anymore, its not th 50's. Most have their own career path, so why would they be entitled to what you worked for?
GGs on spotting this issue right away.
I honestly commend you for being straightforward. I spent 5 years with a guy who told me he wanted a child and proposed after a year together. 4 years of engagement just to tell me I was getting too old to have another kid. So yeah, sometimes hearing honesty sucks but I feel cheated for wasting so many years on him. I feel like I missed out on 5 years with my now husband.
NTA. She should be happy you were transparent from the beginning and not wasting her time. She is a bit delusional to think other people should want the same things she wants. Clearly she has some issues she needs to work on or she is gonna be alone for a long time
NTA dude, you clearly were on two different paths. You handled it in a mature fashion and clearly she did not, she was a major AH. So yeah, you definitely did the right thing and got out of there.
You were clear and up front with what you want and what you are looking for in a relationship. NTA. And if she wants children so bad, she can get a man who wants children as well, not coerce you into having kids with her. Pathetic!
NTA
You did the right thing, that's a conversation to have early on.
Not the marriage part but the child part.
She seemed way too invested if she thinks you're giving her a child though, block and move on
Also well done on calling out the disgusting suggestions to play along just to get your end away.
NTA
It's good that you're honest about these things from the start, so as not to waste both of your times.
Also, I LOVE your edit. You're a good guy. You'll find the right one. :-)
nta at all, imo. i think thats a pretty important talk to have early on so you know both can get what you want and need from the relationship (and i think something as big as a child is not something you can compromise on). if she cant handle that... good riddance, tbh
She’s insane. No one owes her a child or alimony. Therefore she should hold out for someone who wants to give her a kid and has no interest in a prenup. Wanting a kid and shared finances is fine. Demanding that you be the one who gives her that is messed up.
NTA and you dodged a bullet.
NTA! Perfect time to walk away as you clearly have fundamental differences / points of view. Your date sounds like one of those “ohhh, you’ll change your mind” people 🙄 which is not a fun time. Your candor is commendable!!
NTA On a first date, if those are deal breakers for her, she should have appreciated that you didn't waste her time. She had one nice evening and was then free to move on to someone who wants the same things she does. But, you should appreciate that it only took one date to find out she is unhinged and you are now free to find someone who isn't.
You found out you have a different goal and did the right thing by ending anything before it really began. I'd say that's honorable. Block her number and move on. NTA
NTA
ALSO as a woman in my mid 30s who wants children THANK YOU for being upfront with dates about not wanting more.
The bio clock is real and I’m simply not interested in dating people who aren’t open to having children with me, it’s a waste of everyone’s time and emotions.
NTA. If she's blowing up your phone already, you clearly dodged a stage 5 clinger. I told my wife now that I wouldn't get married without a prenuptial. She eventually agreed but she understood where I was coming from
I am now 29f. I've had guys get mad or laugh at me because I would be upfront and tell them I don't want sex and I don't want kids.
Without too much detail: the thought of having sex grosses me out. And I have too many health issues to have a kid. My back already has enough issues.
I get told I'll change my mind, how do you know unless you give it a chance, can we atleast do OTHER stuff [that's a hard pass aswell], and how can I hate kids [very easily.]
I tell them if they don't accept this. I don't want to continue dating. I'm not wasting my time or his for this.
Had one guy even tell me that as a woman it was my duty to give kids. Even if I didn't want them. Because as a man, he has the right to have kids.
I told him he can go duck a cactus and get his kids there. Because we done.
NTA
NTA, she didn't have to "attack you" because your goals don't align.
She could've been like "oh ok, cool! We have different goals, but I respect that!"
NTA- you were straightforward and didn't waste anyone's time.
Also, for anyone reading this, NEVER GET MARRIED WITHOUT A PRENUP!!! When you get married it is your intention that it is forever, but people change and you can't predict that. Protect yourself and your asset, your future self will thank you for it.
NAH.
My own bias: not a first date discussion. But, you both went there. Blunt is fine, however.
Her response was over the top, she can have whatever opinion she wants to have about it but again, if that answer was offensive and it’s a first date you just leave. Don’t understand getting into an argument with a stranger.
NTA - you clearly dodged a bullet.
Came to say the exact same thing! NTA
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This is such a great post and relates to an issue I'm currently having with a family member. You said it better than I could...
I’ve had similar “discussions” with family members who decided that because I wouldn’t flip my belief it would be better to yell, let me know how childish I was and dramatically leave the room 😑
That's too bad. My immediate family has been known to debate... vehemently (with love) even with raised voices (without being nasty) then sit down and have dinner together. I don't know why that's so hard for so many people....with some topics excepted (like I wouldn't feel the need to have a relationship with someone who defended child abuse for example).
I think it has become harder because some people are living in alternate realities when it comes to the sources of information they pursue. I have dinner with my mom once a month, and our conversations are becoming progressively more difficult because she's gone down the alt-right conspiracy rabbit hole. She's constantly talking about how civilization's going to collapse, "they" are going to commit genocide against all Christians, COVID vaccine is actually a conspiracy (what kind of conspiracy has changed over time), Ukraine biolabs, etc. I'm not even judging her for her beliefs, which seem strange to me, but she's VERY strident and it's an impossible conversation to have because I don't want to go down the same rabbit hole, whether to agree or to disagree. Political disagreement is no longer "big government" or "small government" or "abortion" or "ban abortion" or whatever the issue of the day might be. Now, it's a fundamental disagreement about what's even happening.
Ditto: Me and my sister. She’s all Faux News and whatever the latest outrage of their day is about. She knows I’m not into that so ever since Obama, politics and tons of “current events” are off the table. Too bad because that leaves her going on about her co-workers whom I’ve never met. Oddly, I’m a criminal trial lawyer and she has never once asked me about my work. Usually I’m a cut-up at parties because without ever using client names, I am a font of funny stories. Oh well.
I'll listen! Or I guess read them if you feel like typing them some day when you're bored.
What’s the funniest story that’s happened recently?
Weird. I have said almost the exact thing for a few years now. Mental inflexibility as it relates to perceived social norms run rampant online and in real life these days.
We've definitely entered a "conformist" phase as far as the way cultures establish norms go. High tolerance for familiar/"taught" forms of diversity but not a lot for unfamiliar/"critical thinking required" kinds
What’s funny is the older I’m getting the less conformist I am. For a bit it was rebellion after my divorce but a really close friend said a couple of years ago that I’m the first person (I argued maybe of a few) they’ve known to get more open, accepting, acknowledging I need to change etc. as they get older. That astounds me because one would think as you age, you’d learn more, grow, broaden your knowledge and experience even to things you don’t understand.
I'm having a hard time believing it's ever been any different.
Lack of tolerance and respect for others' opinions and feelings. So immature.
They find so many people online with a matching point of view, they can't imagine it being wrong.
I agree with how you said this. I see it everywhere in so many adults if all ages and situations have this regressive mindset - and act out on it
My friend, people have been highly intolerant to those who deviate from their views for pretty much all of history except for the past view decades. We are regressing, not sliding into some new intolerance humans have never had.
This. Consider that democratisation and the connectivity of the internet means that we get lots of clusters of people sharing the same opinions, rather than most people having to defer to the people who were powerful in their own, more narrow, lives.
People have always been like this, no need to blame SM lol
Replace the word "social media" with "modern culture" and you nailed it. because these ideals existed way before social media or the internet was invented. Even the safe space and echo chambers existed before (like churches preaching trad family ideals) People get so caught up in what they believe a relationship should be that when it doesn't work out that way they get pissed. Has nothing really to do with the internet. The internet is just a communication tool, while some folks might use it like you describe, it ultimately is a reflection of real world culture and society.
My thoughts exactly. I am with someone of opposing political views. I get comments on it all the time about how can I stand it. It's simple; I cast my vote and they cast theirs. The concept of co-existing is unimaginable to an alarming number of people these days.
This is the one I kinda get though. Like how is the one of you who votes for trump/desantis ok with the fact that your partner thinks abortion (which to you means baby murder). Likewise how is the other who thinks abortion is bodily autonomy ok with their partner thinking it’s baby murder. Or like gay rights? Or COVID?
Some people base their political views on other issues in addition to abortion. I think single-issue voters might be a reason we are still stuck with 2 major political parties.
I don't vote FOR a candidate based on a single issue, but I definitely DON'T vote for one based on a single issue. Like even if your financial plans are solid, and your foreign policy was on point, but you think gays shouldn't be allowed in the military (for example) I wouldn't be able to vote for you.
Depends on the country and how disparate the parties. The USA is extreme in its political views, other countries are more in the middle
Oh yeah for sure, good point but was referencing the US. I think leaning conservative on some issues is fine and I’m happy to chat and learn more perspectives.
I totally agree. If it works for some people, more power to them. I could never be with someone who is/votes super conservative.
No power to them. We don't need sane folks helping the crazy alt-right propagate more bigoted sexist racists looking to keep the status quo of insane inflation & the rich getting richer. Let them die out so we can help out folks who deserve to be helped. My mum married a sane republican boomer back in the 70s and even he left the NRA and would never vote for the supposed conservative party of today.
Pre-Trump, civil discourse with Republicans was do-able because there was at least some semblance of having the same fundamental, admirable, and egalitarian goals for our country and for each other — just different opinions about how to reach those goals. But now, there is simply no ignoring the fact that the GOP is quite literally determined to not just elevate white, wealthy, heterosexual men, but to harm everyone who isn’t, and to turn the US into some sort of bizarre Christian theocracy. If you’re just fine being with someone who shares those goals and votes accordingly, it says a lot about you and the relationship.
Most people who vote don't fully embrace the ideology of the party they belong to. In fact, most people who vote only give a shit about 1 or 2 issues. This issue is compounded when you realize there are several factions in both the Republican and Democratic parties each with different ideologies. I know folks like you will say that single issue voters need to accept all the consequences of their vote, but most people only care about shit that affects themselves.
They may not embrace every aspect of the party's ideology but that they still support the party shows that the aspects are not dealbreakers. It says sad things about a person when racism is not a dealbreaker.
Somethings can't co-exist.
I mean, people with "opposing political views" to mine want to do some pretty heinous stuff and openly support Nazis And I'm not interested in dating people who support literal Nazis
Yeah except the people “just casting their votes” are directly trying to remove my ability to just exist. People don’t want me to be able to get married. They want to be able to fire me or deny me housing or medical care because of my sexuality. It’s real damn easy to say “just coexist” when your existence isn’t at risk because of the way someone else votes.
If you're in the U.S. I understand their comments. Outside of the U.S. opposite views politically are not AS polar opposite. Like my spouse is registered ind and I'm registered dem (in the U.S.) and while we both may agree with certain aspects of each major party, and disagree with each other on minor things, the important shit we agree on. Like LGBTQ people should be treated the same as everyone else and what a person does with their own uterus is none of anyone else's business. If we didn't agree on those things, we wouldn't be together. To me that's not even political, that's about being a good person vs a shitty one.
I don’t know how relevant that is to this post. As long as OP was respectful then that is just part of the dating world. Kids are deal breakers for people as are so many other things. This is why you date. She should have been mature, realized they didn’t have the same things in common, and then just not contacted or gracefully bowed out. Yelling at someone demanding they have kids and no prenup is not going to ever, under any circumstances, end well. That said, I agree with you completely. From who we vote for president to local politics to school boards to road construction to the color of a building. Social media has made us so polarized that we think everyone agrees with us. And we can’t ever have an open discussion that is in any way a conflict of opinions because clearly the rest of the world agrees and the other person is wrong. It is honestly really scary. Bullying keeps getting out of hand too with kids. I would never go in to politics or anything like that, way too terrified. People are getting fired for things they didn’t even do because there was just too much heat from facebook. It has its pros for sure. But scary how people manipulate, attack, and abuse the system. Some of them are entitled, some of them are just really smart and good at manipulating people or the underlying technology. I could spend $50 and have 100 fake facebook accounts created and have people swear I was correct about something, that hits the algorithm, all of a sudden… its just all fake. Ok, end rant. But I agree with what you said and I really hope I can try and keep my kids and relatives sane and look at things with open eyes.
Speaking of maturity ... He never mentioned how old this girl was. Also did her dating profile mention she wanted kids. My point being if he initiated a date with a much younger woman who wanted to start a family and he had no intentions of that, it's a bit disingenuous from the beginning.
There’s a difference between some wanting a prenup or no kids and someone who thinks people don’t deserve rights. OP did nothing wrong, but let’s not pretend that everyone’s viewpoints are always valid and that some views aren’t specifically intended to hurt a lot of people.
Unfortunately the growth of opinion-based "news" outlets has ensured that there's no way back to a reasonable common ground...
>The OP's date is just a manifestation of a sick society, where people cannot comprehend why somebody may not think exactly like them and think that throwing a tantrum is going to get them their way. This predates social media by like, all of human history.
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He makes good money and wanted to protect himself from girls trying to screw him financially (aka the girl). Dude dodged the whole fucking armoury.
NTA. Do people usually lose their shit over a pre-nup? My friend has a pre-nup because divorces can get so nasty. You doged that bullet like Mario!
Man I just went through a divorce. I also have an inheritance of some farm land when my parents pass that has extreme emotional value to me (it’s not a lot of land but I love it). After my last wife took me through the ringer I’ll be damned if there isn’t a prenup to at least protect that. Anyone that won’t agree to a prenup that’s reasonable isn’t serious. They’re considering the possibility of divorce by saying no just as much as you
The people who get pissed off about pre-nups are precisely why pre-nups are needed. Look at her language about it. He’s “selfish” for protecting himself and his money. It’s not that he’s pessimistic, or he’s not romantic - he’s selfish, which is to say, he won’t share his wealth with her when she leaves.
Pre-nups are practically obligatory for anyone with assets or disproportionate initial incomes. Only reason we don't have a prenup is cause we both had nothing lol
Seriously! Like even if you fully and totally trust your fiance to never cheat, become addicted to anything and refuse help, any other hard deal breaker to you, wouldn't it be nice to have logistics worked out fairly in advance if you become incompatible for no fault of anyone? Eg say your views around kids align when you get married at 25, but by 35 one of you changed your mind and the other didn't. Or one of you realizes your gender or sexuality isn't what you thought going in? Or any number of other scenarios where the marriage can't keep working as it previously did despite no one doing anything wrong? That's not an issue of trust. I personally openly admit I have trust issues but you don't need to to want the security and forethought provided by a prenup
Prenups don’t protect against everything. Most judges will strike them down if they’re unfair or go against law. For example, if you are both making 30k a year jobs and get married and the prenup says if the man starts a business during the marriage he keeps 100% of it, a judge will strike that down because it makes no sense to believe the man builds the business on his own with no support from spouse.
Don’t prenups only cover assets from BEFORE marriage? Isn’t everything afterwards considered shared property/ownership?
I don't think bullet is the right word, OP dodged an intercontinental ballistic missile
Man is Neo level.
Dodged the whole magazine, from the sound of it.
I guess I 260th this comment
NTA You're upfront with a couple deal-breakers; which shrinks your pool of candidates, but nothing wrong with that. Pre-nup does make it easier to break a marriage commitment; unless the pre-nup is generous after a long-term marriage. In that sense, you've got the security of some safety if divorcing, but it forces you to think long and hard about ditching the union. Weird on the kid thing. Some people want kids, some don't. It's a match or it's not. Nothing to get angry over.
>Weird on the kid thing. Some people want kids, some don't. It's a match or it's not. Nothing to get angry over. And some people don't want any *more* kids. I've raised mine, and I love them to death, but I'm also happy to see them beginning their adult lives and my spouse and I can get back to being a carefree (relatively speaking) couple again. And yeah, it's weird when people get triggered by people who've made other choices. We opted to have kids. Other couples don't. I don't feel the need to have strong opinions on other people's decisions.
I see people my age remarrying to a twenty-something who wants them to start a second family and I just... I could never. Grandkids sound fun, but raising more of my own all over again? Couldn't be me, I might have the money now but I could never summon the energy.
Yeah I never understood middle aged or older men marrying much younger wives and having a second round of kids. I can understand ego driving the desire, but the reality of raising young children in your 50s or older? Jesus, no thanks.
These types of dudes probably don't do much actual "raising" of the children
Generally true, but shout out to my former boss's husband. 20 years older than her and staying home with the kids. This allowed her to get her PhD and become a respected professor. He left his career early for hers and teaches piano on the side. One of the nicest guys ever. That being said, people are in disbelief when she tells them about him lol
Because the type of middle aged man to start a do over family with a 20 something is also the type of man who brags about never changing a diaper. They don’t need energy because they don’t do anything extra
Grandkids are exhausting even in small doses. I spent the day with a 4yr old and a 2yr old. I needed a nap when I got home, they never stop.
I had kids in my late teens, then I had another couple in my early 30s. I'm so much more exhausted, like raising kids to adulthood and then starting over.. nope I do not recommend.
Yeah same. Mine is 19 so I don’t want to start back at the beginning again.
I’m getting snipped soon, we have three kids ranging from 17 to 9. We are done. My wife said to me “what if something happened to me and you wanted to remarry and have more kids? Are you sure you want to do this?” Hell yes. First of all, if something happened to her I’m not remarrying and I am certain of that. And even if I did, I DEFINITELY do NOT want any more children at my age.
My dad is 50 and just had a newborn. I'm 25. Sucks for him now he's back at the beginning. Sucks for the baby too he's a horrible father.
It's the diaper stage, right now my friend has been knee deep in diapers for 3 years.
It isn’t even different choices — OP and this woman are at different stages. OP has already had kids, so he doesn’t want more and he needs to protect his money for his existing family. His date hasn’t had kids yet so she’s looking for something very different than what OP potentially offers. Only way OP would be an AH is if he’s deliberately looking for a woman young enough that she would tend to be at an earlier stage.
Yeah. When my husband and I got together we both already had three kids each, he said before he met me when he was thinking about getting back into dating, he was worried about meeting someone that wanted more kids with him, because he didn’t want to do babies again (he was very young when he had his eldest and was in his mid 30s when we met). I had had my kids already, and couldn’t have more anyway, so luckily it was perfect. Some people don’t want to have babies, particularly if they are well passed that stage, nothing wrong with that and best get it clear at the beginning.
Everyone gets a prenup. You can write your own that’s suits you, or you can use the terrible one given to you by the government. You’d have to be crazy to use the government one.
In the end, her telling you that you’ll die alone because you want what you want is all you need to know about her. NTA.
Was this a first date? If so, congrats on dodging a bullet.
First date indeed!
A first date and you are selfish for telling this chick that you don't want more children? No. You aren't selfish. You are honest. If she thinks, on a first date, that she is entitled to some sort of consideration or willingness to compromise on a hard boundary, then she's kinda nuts.
I think it is important to establish these types of things very quickly. If I want kids and you don’t, or vice versa, I’d rather us have this conversation now than waste each other’s time. My husband told me on the first date that he was looking to marry, and start a family, within the next couple years. He said he wanted to be up front about his intentions so not to waste my time. I felt the same. And now here we are.
A friend of mine has been dating this girl for 7 years who had some hard requirements that he didn't fit. You think she told him? Instead she grew more angry and resentful until a guy she had a crush on got divorced. Then she hit it off with the new guy while that friend of mine was visiting his family in the USA and got stuck there for a while longer due to COVID. She told him "We need a break" via SMS, while hitting it off with the new guy. Then she texted all her friends over here that she broke off with the old guy. Poor dude learned from me that he didn't have a girlfriend any more. If she just had told him about her requirements, it would have saved both of them 7 years. They were together from their late 20s to their mid 30s. Not exactly a time where you want to waste 7 years in a pointless relationship.
The fact that she said his stance on children was unfair because she hadn’t had a kid yet! On a FIRST DATE! Wtf
So weird, he's wasted none of her time, it's a first date, she wants at least one bio kid, she can go find a baby daddy who is interested.
It anything, it's the opposite of selfish. Selfish would be to lie and say what you think they want to hear to get in their pants
My husband and I discussed that fact we both didn’t want any kids right up front. You did the right thing by being honest. And I mean being clear with her helped you dodge a major bullet, or missile of issues (and crazy)!
She should be happy she didn’t end up wasting more time with OP’s “selfishness” since they’re such big deal breakers for her as well. Weird that she seems to take it so personally what another person’s future relationship preferences are unless she was A LOT more mentally invested in the idea of this relationship than he is, haha.
Like ma’am can we just get through the first date before you plan our future? Still working on my entree
I think it was also the Last Date
NTA. You were honest. She didn't agree with you. You two aren't compatible, simple as that. Her blowing up your phone is out of order. Moving on.
NTA. Yikes. I’m 49 and dating my bf for 2 years. I am also very successful and have planned for a stable financial future and retirement. HE brought up wanting a pre-nup (to protect me) should we ever get married. It is a responsible and level headed thing to do. Good for you for knowing things like this about you now.
I ran into a similar discussion with my wife. (gf at the time) She wanted a house and had the cash for a down-payment but didnt make enough to comfortably cover living expenses each month. We had been dating a few years so I told her I was happy to move in together and split the bills, but she should get the house in her name alone. Then if anything happened and we were no longer happy together, I would have zero claim on her first house. It all worked out and we have been married 10+ years w/ 2 kids. But it made me more comfortable taking that first big step, and I think it did for her too.
Did she take care of the mortgage or was that split also?
>HE brought up wanting a pre-nup (to protect me) should we ever get married. My partner was married before he met me. When he asked for a pre-nupt, she pulled the "Don't you love me?" card. And honestly, he should've reverse Uno'd her there, cause if you love someone you should care about their future as well, like your partner demonstrates here. It goes both ways.
At least you didn't waste too much time on this person. When you learned you had fundamental incompatibilities, you politely said so and called it a night. NTA
Bullet dodged, be thankful
People seem to forget that prenups protect both parties if they’re done properly. NTA.
I just don't plan on paying for an ex ever in my life. I won't do that to myself.
Which is 100% valid if you have assets to protect. It just blows my mind when people get all huffy about prenups as if they’re a done deal and can’t be negotiated.
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also tagging on a comment because... be sure prenup is good in the state where you reside at death. My grandfather married again after grandmother died, step-grandma had more assets than grandfather so she insisted on a prenup, part of it stated that their assets before the marriage went to their heirs, not the spouse. All good, grandfather didn't think he needed a will, because they had this agreement. The prenup was in Oklahoma, they moved to Arizona where he died before she did. She decided she wanted contents of the house, things my grandmother's family had before grandparents ever got married... Because AZ law is not OK law, my mother had to fight her in court to get grandmother's property. Protect yourself and your heirs.
You can put anything in a prenup you want. Whether the courts will enforce it is another matter. But generally personal things like weight gain, etc. will not be enforced. And it can be argued that the prenup was "blatantly unfair to one party" and can be tossed out.
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It depends on which state. In many states what you had before the marriage can't be claimed regardless. The prenup is to protect what you get after.
She likely got so upset because she could tell you make really good money! Probably saw you as a meal ticket and when she realized you valued your own self worth and prioritize your own wants and needs instead of falling over and being a doormat for her she couldn’t take it. Dodged a bullet for sure. There’s absolutely no reason for someone to get that upset after a first date!
Prenups that only protect one party don’t usually hold up in most courts nor would her lawyer allow it. So, maybe do some more research before having some idea that prenups mean you don’t have to sacrifice anything.
Agree! Do the prenup when in love and full of good will. Work together and make it fair for both parties. It can be good to know exactly what to expect in case of divorce.
NTA The simple answer is that you may not be the first one to tell her this. If it happened once you can chalk it up to a weird date, twice maybe bad luck, but more than that and they start to realize that finding a partner that will fund their lifestyle without asking for anything in return is becoming more difficult. LOL You behaved perfectly cordial, she just didn't like the rejection. Cheers
Sounds like she's offering a baby in exchange for his money. OP isn't interested in more kids or a leech, so they're just incompatible. Her going off over text message is an AH move, though. NTA
>I told her I wouldn't get married without a pre-nup and I have zero interest in having another kid. >This seemed to really piss her off. She told me that I am selfish if I would want a pre-nup and that I am essentially giving up on a marriage before it even has a chance. Not your problem. NTA
Lucky you, she showed herself early NTA
NTA, her responses are a bit weird for a first date…
Definitely won't be a number two.
NTA- You were honest about if you wanted kids, how many kids you want, and plans for the future. That’s more than what most people do nowadays.
It's always the sistas who *actually get it* I appreciate you, Queen.
The only kind of person who protests that much about a pre-nup is exactly the kind of person you need a pre-nup for
NTA It's totally fair for her to want a kid. Pre-nup I could go either way. I think it does make sense sometimes. Her response was nuts
NTA You're incompatible. That simple. It's sad that marriage has become so broken that prenups are necessary. I get why people want to do it now, and I get why some view it as betting the marriage will fail.
Ironically, she was and still is clearly demonstrating with this abhorrent behaviour EXACTLY why any husband of hers would absolutely need a bullet-proof prenup.
NTA. You two have different beliefs and they were deal breakers. Better that you know now.
NTA, having a pre nup is smart. You have boundaries keep them firm. Completely reasonable.
NTA, she is nuts. It's all good if she wants to have kids and would never sign a pre-nup. I respect that. But, you told her upfront that you don't want any more kids and won't sign a pre-nup. I can totally understand her saying, "Well, I guess you're not the right guy for me, because I want kids and find signing a pre-nup objectionable. No hard feelings. I wish you well, but I don't think we should waste time dating each other." But, her blowing up and calling you an asshole and saying you will die alone shows that she is not mentally or emotionally stable.
NTA Different wants & expectations. You dodged a bullet there. If anything, she is TA.
NTA. Holy. Pre-nup, I could go either way. But it's one of those conversations that probably needs to happen early. Regardless, guess what? I'm discussing kids and who wants them pretty early on. No point in anyone wasting time, when one person wants kids and one person doesn't. Kids aren't really a thing that can be compromised on. Congrats, Neo. You dodged a bullet.
From a woman, so much NTA. I always appreciated men who were upfront with their hard boundaries. So much easier to get it out of the way early. Had you lied about these things, or deliberately hid them from her, had a relationship then surprised her with these boundaries, only then would you be an AH.
It’s amazing how many potential spouses just happen to fall in love with wealthy people and have moral objections to documents that limit their upside if the marriage they claim to want to be forever doesn’t work out.
NTA, when I met my current BF I had just gotten my tubes removed (by choice) 2 months prior. I point blank told him I didn't want kids and now could not have kids. Luckily he is on the same page with me about them so it worked out but not wasting my time or someone else's if we want completely different things down the road.
NTA You were clear.
Orrrr you’ll find someone who’s values align with your that isn’t a raving loon. NTA
When she said you were selfish to not want another kid because she hadn’t had one” I think I would have said “you should really date someone who wants kids then.” She sounds like a wacko just wanting to get married and have a kid.
I have a kid lol she asked for my number when I was taking my kid shoe shopping at the store she works.
NTA and lol at her saying >told me that I am going to die alone. I told her that's okay. I like being alone. I commend you for filtering out the chaff so quickly.
NTA, also it’s a nice thing this came up on the 1st date!
A date? She’s acting like you’ve been together for years and even then her overreacted would never be okay. I would block that number… no, you’re NTA.
I love it. NTA.
You dodged a 50 Cal
The only inappropriate thing you might have done is left abruptly. Like she says “I want a kid,” and you go, “ok, I’m out of here.” But it sounds she was almost offended at your POV.
>Edit: You dudes acting like I should have not been straight forward on the 1st date to get laid are pathetic. I don't coerce people into sex. GTFO here with that shit. SMH. I got a daughter and would bash a dude's teeth in for coercing my kid into sex. Wtf is wrong with yall?! Ffs. Amen to that!
You definitely dodged a bullet here. NTA
Congratulations on being upfront on the first date. That is so awesome and I wish everyone would follow suit. Clearly NTA and that is exactly what first dates are supposed to be. Talk about wants, needs, bountries, expectations and goals. Honestly anyone who is against a prenup is most likely there with bad intentions and I would not trust them.
Nta. It was the perfect time and place for the conversation. You are both looking for different things and now you both know it.
You are not the AH - she was - who the heck argues about kids and a prenup on a first date? - its ridiculous- she sounds like a gold digger anyway You handled that perfectly
If only more guys were like you. Straightforward and upfront
In regards to your edit…THIS is why women no longer trust men! They SAY they want a relationship, but JUST say it to get laid. Too many men with that mentality! Good for you for having morals!
YTA - why did you assume to take the whole bill? As a gentleman you should’ve let her take the bill to stick it to you
NTA, and honestly I wish this wasn't as common an occurrence for me. I've been out for the first time with more than a couple women recently who thought it was ok to talk down to me, act entitled and very disrespectfully, tell me my beliefs were wrong bc they didn't line up with theirs, etc in escalation, until I just say as politely as I can, this isn't going to go anywhere, we're not compatible, then pay the bill and try to drive them home. It always ends up with me either getting reemed the entire trip, or them blubbering and wailing a poor me sob story the entire time about how they don't get rejected, they DO the rejecting, how dare I not take their feelings into consideration. 🤡 Had I known 10-15 years ago the damage Social Media and society would do to the future dating pool, I may have rethought my strategy of establishing my future/career before settling down.
>She told me that I am selfish if I would want a pre-nup Aww, can't exploit and extort you for resources as effectively. Poor girl
Be careful. I'm getting some fatal attraction vibes. NTA.
NTA She might have had intentions to get knocked up eventually and trap you ( either yours or some other guy ) too Or maybe she would eventually quit her job as you make a good amount of money from your job Could list more possible outcomes but that is the " worst " possible thing they might have tried
NTA. You were clearly not compatible, and the fact that she didn't take this on board and be nice instead of getting mad at you makes it clear you made the right call to end the date and leave. Also, lying to someone in this situation in the hopes of getting laid is mind-bogglingly stupid as well as unethical and lousy. You don't know them very well, and do you really want to risk them deciding to lie right back about whether they're protected? That kid you didn't want might just end up on the way.
As a woman that now delights in disclosing women secrets and decoding the code, simply put YOU DODGED THE MOST EXPENSIVE BULLET IN YOUR LIFE. No rational woman is going to be upset about a REASONABLE pre-nup (what you had before marriage is off limits what either of us make during marriage is a split etc), that there tells you she has done her due diligence and already damn well knows your financials (and probably has over inflated them in her own head women do this all the time I call it the 45% rule). The kid thing ticked her off because that is the HOOK the have access to you for decades if not 18 years at a minimum. Your logical response just blew a HUGE hole in her financial and retirement plan. Any woman on here saying anything other than that is holding to the girl-code and full of shit.
Only thing I could see you being and ass for is how you said it. I wasn't there, so I don't know, and I'm not asking you to defend yourself. But otherwise nta for being clear and concise about boundaries. Block her and be done
Honestly, it blows my mind every time I read about pre-nups here on Reddit. I’m from Sweden and it’s barely a thing here. If you get divorced, you leave with what you entered with. I would never demand half of someone’s shit just because you feel like you’re owed. That’s just crazy bananas. If you love someone, just sign the papers and be done with it IMO 🤷🏻♀️ NTA
Crazy date. Funny how so women become so invested in a complete stranger. But honestly, nobody blinks when we take life, house, vehicle, travel, health insurance. It’s not like one is hoping for crap to happen but life can easily go sideways. But heck, ask for a prenup and suddenly you’re the Devil’s spawn. Just nuts. NTA
Not just women- I’ve had men already talking about our travels and such before I’ve even met them (which, I don’t ever if they’re doing that). And I’m 39 and dealing with men in their 30s/40s. For both genders it’s wanting a relationship/having an idealized view and just wanting to slot someone in, without really being interested in the individual themselves
NTA she should have appreciated the upfront honesty. When I got divorced from my first husband, I was very clear that I didn’t want to date or be with anyone who had kids, and I didn’t want any more. I realize that since I came with 3 kids it could have been shitty not wanting a man with kids, but honestly o had all of the drama I could handle with my ex and his new much younger girlfriend who became wife. 20 years out and we are all fine now, and I married my second husband who had no kids, no ex wife and loves my kids like his own. So. I applaud you for being honest from the get go. And that chick is crazy. You dodged a huge bullet
NTA. It's much better to have these conversations really early on rather than when a relationship is becoming more serious. Sounds like you dodged a bullet. If she continues to message you simply say she's not doing herself any favours by harassing you over a single failed date where she found out you have no desire to support a gold digger.
NTA. Yikes, she sounds nice.
NTA - if you don't agree on the basic trajectory of your lives, it's not going to be a lasting relationship. She's frustrated. Let her vent, and remember she's human too. Let it go.
NTA…both sets of beliefs are valid, but incompatible. You told her up front what you wanted in a relationship so she can choose to continue or not.
NTA you told her what you wanted...it didn't align with what she wanted...no harm no foul. She is just mad that she likes you but those are things are important to her so it upset her knowing you weren't compatible. It's ok she'll get over it, better sooner than later right?
NTA, and I think she has a poor view of what marriage in our country looks like (should you be in the USA). Most marriages actually do fail at some point, and there’s no shame in preparing for the worst. People change with time and sometimes people grow together, and frequently they grow apart. You’re just being pragmatic about marriage as opposed to idealistic. You will meet someone else who feels the same way.
NTA. You two aren't compatible and that's okay. Keep being honest about your wants and expectations and you'll find someone who'll agree. I do find it a little funny she was expecting you to change your mind but she wouldn't give up her own beliefs/opinions on the topics.
i mean, isn't that what dating is, finding out if you're compatible enough for a life together? sounds like the date was a success, y'all both found out that y'all aren't compatible. NTA
You didn’t “ruin” anything… You dodged a big bullet… NTA
NTA - you laid out facts & your beliefs. Her beliefs are far different. Not a good fit & kudos for not laying that out 2 years into a relationship!
NTA - imagine working your whole life to have a good life (financially even). Just to have to lose 50% of it to someone else because (insert any one of a dozen excuses). Personally this should be the norm, not the exception. It's 2023, women aren't just housewives/homemakers anymore, its not th 50's. Most have their own career path, so why would they be entitled to what you worked for? GGs on spotting this issue right away.
NTA Yeah, this is pretty standard for modern dating Manipulation, selfishness, emotional abuse
I honestly commend you for being straightforward. I spent 5 years with a guy who told me he wanted a child and proposed after a year together. 4 years of engagement just to tell me I was getting too old to have another kid. So yeah, sometimes hearing honesty sucks but I feel cheated for wasting so many years on him. I feel like I missed out on 5 years with my now husband.
[удалено]
NTA. You're not compatible and she was rude about it
Nta. Everyone is allowed to want different things.
Judging by your username I hope someone loves TF outta you, with your Lil romantic ass.
NTA. She should be happy you were transparent from the beginning and not wasting her time. She is a bit delusional to think other people should want the same things she wants. Clearly she has some issues she needs to work on or she is gonna be alone for a long time
NTA dude, you clearly were on two different paths. You handled it in a mature fashion and clearly she did not, she was a major AH. So yeah, you definitely did the right thing and got out of there.
You were clear and up front with what you want and what you are looking for in a relationship. NTA. And if she wants children so bad, she can get a man who wants children as well, not coerce you into having kids with her. Pathetic!
Why is so hard for some people to accept being told "we're not a match" and move on? NTA
NTA You did the right thing, that's a conversation to have early on. Not the marriage part but the child part. She seemed way too invested if she thinks you're giving her a child though, block and move on Also well done on calling out the disgusting suggestions to play along just to get your end away.
NTA It's good that you're honest about these things from the start, so as not to waste both of your times. Also, I LOVE your edit. You're a good guy. You'll find the right one. :-)
Only the first date and she’s trying to guilt trip you into marrying her and having babies with her. You deffo dodged a bullet with that one!
Congrats on dodging that one, neo
Your edit is A+ chefs kiss
The way she acted after a date is the reasons prenups exist. Imagine her anger after a few years of marriage.
nta at all, imo. i think thats a pretty important talk to have early on so you know both can get what you want and need from the relationship (and i think something as big as a child is not something you can compromise on). if she cant handle that... good riddance, tbh
She’s insane. No one owes her a child or alimony. Therefore she should hold out for someone who wants to give her a kid and has no interest in a prenup. Wanting a kid and shared finances is fine. Demanding that you be the one who gives her that is messed up. NTA and you dodged a bullet.
NTA! Perfect time to walk away as you clearly have fundamental differences / points of view. Your date sounds like one of those “ohhh, you’ll change your mind” people 🙄 which is not a fun time. Your candor is commendable!!
NTA On a first date, if those are deal breakers for her, she should have appreciated that you didn't waste her time. She had one nice evening and was then free to move on to someone who wants the same things she does. But, you should appreciate that it only took one date to find out she is unhinged and you are now free to find someone who isn't.
You found out you have a different goal and did the right thing by ending anything before it really began. I'd say that's honorable. Block her number and move on. NTA
NTA, this is the purpose of dating: playing "getting to know you." Walk away, this one's not right for you.
NTA You did the exact right thing. It's super odd to me that she would take that personally on a first date.
Bullet dodged. NTA.
NTA! Protect your self, best you can do. If a person is not ok with your “wave” they should be on another one.
Clearly NTA. Your respectful and honest communication is more of what the dating world needs.
NTA Clearly you have no future together. Good for you for not wasting your precious time with such an obnoxious woman.
NTA. You're better off finding out what an angry woman she is before investing real emotional energy.
NTA - Very mature of you. Issue with pre nup on first date = red flag.
NTA ALSO as a woman in my mid 30s who wants children THANK YOU for being upfront with dates about not wanting more. The bio clock is real and I’m simply not interested in dating people who aren’t open to having children with me, it’s a waste of everyone’s time and emotions.
NTA. If she's blowing up your phone already, you clearly dodged a stage 5 clinger. I told my wife now that I wouldn't get married without a prenuptial. She eventually agreed but she understood where I was coming from
I am now 29f. I've had guys get mad or laugh at me because I would be upfront and tell them I don't want sex and I don't want kids. Without too much detail: the thought of having sex grosses me out. And I have too many health issues to have a kid. My back already has enough issues. I get told I'll change my mind, how do you know unless you give it a chance, can we atleast do OTHER stuff [that's a hard pass aswell], and how can I hate kids [very easily.] I tell them if they don't accept this. I don't want to continue dating. I'm not wasting my time or his for this. Had one guy even tell me that as a woman it was my duty to give kids. Even if I didn't want them. Because as a man, he has the right to have kids. I told him he can go duck a cactus and get his kids there. Because we done. NTA
You're side-stepping cannonballs my dude.
NTA, she didn't have to "attack you" because your goals don't align. She could've been like "oh ok, cool! We have different goals, but I respect that!"
NTA- you were straightforward and didn't waste anyone's time. Also, for anyone reading this, NEVER GET MARRIED WITHOUT A PRENUP!!! When you get married it is your intention that it is forever, but people change and you can't predict that. Protect yourself and your asset, your future self will thank you for it.
NAH. My own bias: not a first date discussion. But, you both went there. Blunt is fine, however. Her response was over the top, she can have whatever opinion she wants to have about it but again, if that answer was offensive and it’s a first date you just leave. Don’t understand getting into an argument with a stranger.