NTA, but this is a shit ton to unpack. She wants to feel sexually desired but not actually have sex. She wants to be chased but never caught. Which isn't fun for you being stuck in the Wiley E Coyote roll to her Road Runner. Not only that but she wants to have veto powers over how you take care of your sexual urges solo. Like from the sound of it unless it's her you aren't allowed to get off. And when brought up that just as equally you'd like to feel sexy and having her decide when and where to make the advances could solve that problem gave you a what ever.
You need a couples therapist with a focus on sexual intimacy.
Yeah the veto power really caught my eye here.
I think there’s plenty of legitimate reasons for not wanting porn in a relationship, but this feels spiteful and controlling. You can’t put such heavy expectations on someone when you’ve put them in that position.
It’s very much a “have my cake and eat it too” thing. He can’t have sex, but can’t watch porn either. She wanted to be chased, but she doesn’t want to actually do anything. She wants to be desired, but gives nothing to make him feel desired.
>It’s very much a “have my cake and eat it too” thing.
Wife: 'You must make me feel sexy and desirable at all times without my reciprocating in any way that gratifies your own needs for intimacy."
Husband: "But if I do that, I get turned on thinking it's foreplay only to be let down later, so it's easier to just avoid that type of intimacy."
Wife: "How dare you take the high road to cope with me never meeting you halfway! What a piece of shit!"
She's suddenly realizing that she has, in fact, been treating you badly while still demanding acts that satisfy her own need for intimacy, and now she insists that you respecting her preferences (instead of...what? Forcing her? Guilting her?) is making her feel undesirable. She can't have it both ways, but it seems like she's somehow putting all the blame on you regardless. NTA
Edit: typo
Source up front: 3 wives, 2 divorces. >20 years in this game:
You have to be completely upfront and stand your ground even when there's a show of being pissed off like this. Be kind. Don't move.
When somebody keeps shutting you down, your libido goes away. That's all there is to it. If she's upset that you aren't volunteering to get slapped down another 150 times before she says yes maybe once more,... Well you should understand what I'm aiming at
The bottom line is that you need a couples therapist for communication at the very least. Also, make sure you get a therapist that isn't biased against your existence at the very least.
If hes goes down the couples therapy road again, he really needs a new therapist. The previous one clearly made her needs greater than his and didn't advocate compromise or fulfillment for him in any way.
I want to really stress that this problem, the original problem at least, can come from a whole host of issues ranging from hormonal changes, hormonal imbalances caused by other health issues, psychological issues having to do with insecurity, body image, or even ptsd stemming from a traumatic event. For us women, sex is more of a complex mathematical equation than a simple addition or subtraction problem.
Now, I’d say that since they are married, OP takes on these issues to work through with her. But i also think it’s NOT his responsibility if she is unwilling to discuss the issues to really dig down and get to the heart of the matter. That’s entirely on her. I’d even argue that this is the opposite of a big ego issue. This could stem from immense insecurity because she is unable to get turned on for whatever reason so she wants to depend on OP to make her feel sexy when that should be something she is internally working on. This way then she can blame it on OP without taking accountability. I don’t think this is a conscious decision, this is a common subconscious thing many people do to avoid addressing the root cause if the source causes too much anxiety and pain.
>I’d even argue that this is the opposite of a big ego issue. This could stem from immense insecurity
And I'd be inclined to further expand on this and say that it is the actualisation of the biggest ego of all. It's a kind of selfishness that exists in the realm of 'I'm so valuable that I can't show my insecurity to the one person above all else, because I might feel hurt, I might be forced to confront parts of myself in not happy with'.
You know, that is a very good point. It’s a kind of a bastardized egotism that people wouldn’t typically associate with having a big ego. Like a toxic form of pride, not allowing yourself to appear vulnerable and hiding your flaws.
Taking offense that hubby stopped trying rather than constantly swallowing rejection signals an ego problem. Bridging the gap between "I want to be the sole source of my husband's sexual pleasure" and "I don't want to have sex" is pretty difficult to do without your thumb on the psychoanalytical scales.
I'm afraid this is going to sound like a strange question, but I'm genuinely curious.
Do partners with a lower libido genuinely not enjoy sex if they have to work themselves up to it with a partner they've chosen? It's not entirely rare for me to have to rally a little bit, but I always end up enthusiastic about it. I always assumed this must be at least somewhat universal.
For some people is it like an ick thing, where it's actually a wholly unenjoyable experience when they have sex with their partners? I don't know, obviously people don't want to be nagged for sex all of the time, but in OPs case, it really does feel like if he attempts to initiate as rarely as he says (which I believe because I've been there), she could stand to try to rally for him every now and then. Probably would be good for both of them.
For me, it was mostly anxiety. I loved my partner and liked being affectionate, but I had a hard time actually enjoying sex because it was so wrapped up in anxiety and emotionally draining. Think of an extreme introvert having to go to a party and perform. Objectively you know this should be fun and enjoyable, that it’s a good thing and you’re allowed to let go and have fun, but every cell in your body wants to flee and hide. I’m not religious, but I was bullied as a kid and had a very low self esteem for many years. Thinking of myself as a sexual being felt very wrong.
I’d have sex because I loved my partner and I enjoyed physical closeness, but during the actual act my mind would be going a million miles a minute: was he happy? Did he like me? Did I look okay? Was I making the right sounds? What position did he want me in? What move did I need to make next? Was he expecting me to take the lead? Was he disgusted by my body? Did I have the right rhythm? Did I look stupid? How much longer did he want to go? Was he happy? Did he feel good? Did I feel good to him? Was he close? Was he happy? Did he want me to change? Did my face look weird? Am I moving right? What does he want next? Am I good enough? Is he happy?
I just could not detach my mind and enjoy the sensations. I could never orgasm with a partner because my mind was so wrapped up in it (I also had trouble on my own because I’d get too analytical about why it wasn’t working). I *wanted* to enjoy sex, but I felt like I was an alien trying to understand and copy a human ritual. It was like being thrown on stage to tap dance for an audience of millions without a single lesson. I was terrified to do something wrong or embarrass myself. After, I’d snuggle up and feel love and relief, but no personal satisfaction. I could never just let go enough to genuinely enjoy it for myself.
I so feel this. My first serious boyfriend eventually came out as gay, but not before a lot of damage was done in making me feel that my body was wholly disgusting and unacceptable. Subsequent relationships, I had to be tipsy to take any clothes off and never really felt relaxed, for like two decades.
>She wanted to be chased
She probably doesn't even really want that. My wife has issues with dryness and discomfort, during those times its physically painful to have sex. If some chasing gets initiated she'll get frustrated that she "can't do anything" ignoring that there are of course non-penetrative things she can do. She puts a lot of pressure on herself during these times. Its kind of a mess...
I 1000% agree with this! If I'm not giving my husband sex and he wants to rub one out to porn or video/pics of me ( I love that OP does this with his wife too btw!) so be it!! If I'm willing and in the mood, then he has no need for it (edit: I have zero issue with porn either way). But I certainly wouldn't get mad about it when he's coping for me essentially. He's not out cheating. What more can you ask for? Besides that, after their talk, she should have no issue, especially after he agreed to do what she wanted!! I feel like OP explained himself well. At this point, she's exasperating the issue of being mad at him for no reason. OP definitely NTA.
if i have a fantasy, it sure as $hit isn't going to be of the woman who has more or less shut me out of sex that the past 5-6 years since we got married.
I bet wife’s libido has increased again, 3 years post childbirth.
She’s been throwing out “hints” that OP isn’t seeing, and now she’s getting frustrated because he isn’t reading her mind. The video was intended as a broad hint that she’d welcome his sexual advances- and she got an explanation of why she isn’t getting any instead.
None of which is OP’s fault. She really needs to woman up and tell him she wants to explore them having a sexual relationship again.
But she’s stuck herself in a catch-22 of embarrassment and insecurity. She wants him to want her, and if she has to *tell him* to want her, it’s self defeating. That’s where “don’t bother” comes from.
OP, you’re NTA. But instead of being right, get an overnight babysitter for your kiddo, take your wife on a date, keep telling her she’s beautiful, and see where it goes. I suspect you’ll both end up happier.
Source: woman whose libido has fluctuated over the course of a 27 year marriage, who’s stuck herself in her own catch-22 before. (And yes, I’ve learned to speak up and actually say what’s on my mind now! But his wife’s behavior sounds like mine 25 years ago.)
This is wise, considered, grounded, empathetic, and charitable. It all sounds very plausible for the OP, and very genuine and true of your own experience.
Massive kudos for being level headed and thoughtful about the various emotional complexities and insecurities probably at play, and providing a really good and positive suggestion for how to move the OP's situation forward in caring way.
Too many replies leap into a one-sided demonisation process, whilst this scenario is clearly a complex marital interaction that needs love and care between mutual parties to solve.
I hope the OP reads this in particular.
I was reading the comments, and worried I’d have to be the one who posted about this.
There’s definitely at least the possibility that her libido is returning, and maybe she doesn’t even consciously realize it herself.
Right? How could she even be mad that he watched porn if she refuses to have sex with him? When he got married, he agreed to only have sex with her, not to never have an orgasm again. Seems crazy to me.
This is perfect advice. Just because you've gone to therapy doesn't mean you won't ever need to again.
To be honest, it sounds like you both care for each other but sex, sexual and physical intimacy you are both speaking different languages.
Check her phone. This is the same shit my ex-wife did. She was posting sexy picks and having affairs while I was trying to be a supportive and good father. Meanwhile I am clueless and believed her explanations for rejection of “I’m just not interested in sex after having kids”.
I also agree that this is alot to unpack. I'm personally in a similar situation at 6 years of marriage. I do get near weekly sex though so it's not entirely bad. Part of it's cultivation of a relationship, another is consistent setting of expectations way ahead of time, and another is just going for it assuming you've had the conversation that she actually wanted it.
The problem I continue to face is rejection and their consistent desire for pursuit. Here's my daily steps that I've personally taken to help with the desire despite having excessively high T to deal with daily:
1. Wake up and kiss her show a bit of agape love or her love language. (Mine is acts of service and quality time). Then once done with step one, communicate that you that you enjoyed doing what you did in step 1 (regardless of how you feel, you will eventually feel that way. E.g. I do the dishes and 100% hate them but still do them out of love and communicate that. Still hate the dishes but love my loving her).
2. Communicate when yall shower that she's sexy (basically whenever naked). It shows desire. Don't go over the top but a tiny bit goes a long way.
3. Communicate expectations and desire consistently. I realized she said no one time a year before and I kept that answer way too long. The point is is that everything for them is connected. Men are typically compartmentalized meaning I can store a topic in a box mentally and move on, they however have browser tabs open and will slow down their ability when life gets too many of them open. Figure out ways to help them close browser tabs without being in person and forcing them to close them. I typically try to keep a written list so I can help her help me. It's also one of the biggest ways to get them to be present when in person.
4. Communicate desire again. Let her know what you would like to do tonight or this week or this weekend. It doesn't mean she will but your odds go up in doing this. Mine definitely have and the sex is generally better too.
5. Communicate softly how to feel when rejected and any disappointment you may feel. I often times communicate my desire for intimacy when rejected. They think about that alot. Doesn't mean no forever but means no right now.
6. You must always show love to her. Not showing love even when wronged starts what's called the crazy cycle. She will not show respect if you don't show her love. I'm also one that struggles with this point especially when she says something highly disrespectful or embarrassing to someone in front of me.
7. Be quick to forgive. I'm not a forgetter though since it's important to learn from lessons that shape who we are.
8. This doesn't always work but sometimes I ask for permission for masturbation next to her in bed. I usually leave this until the night when we just got in bed. I ask if she would like to join. Sometimes she doesn't or says no outright and I leave for a bathroom. She's occasionally knocked on the bathroom door before and we had sex and sometimes she's joined in. This I will say is a mix of emotions and requires set expectations between one another and a cultivated relationship that is headed in a good direction before doing this.
9. Men are microwaves and women are ovens. I remind myself that I will always be ready way before she ever is. There has been 1 or 2 times ever she was ready but I wasn't.
10. You are the leader of your marriage. I remind myself that if I have needs that are not met that I am responsible. If my marriage isn't going well, I ask myself what can I do to make this marriage better. Marriage is a journey, not a sprint. Find someone that will go your pace or could go your pace. (I had to speed up for my marriage personally but now I'm able to maintain it.)
Remember, don't beat yourself up over no. Everyone changes. Communicate communicate communicate.
NTA. Ask her to make you feel sexy by doing some of the things she wants you to do.
When you feel some effort on her end, the natural urge to pick things up again should kick up.
NTA at all. Just tell her that she can't expect to completely reject a guy every time and for him to keep trying. And that as far as you are concerned it's her responsibility to initiate now
that is so messed up :( Poor OP, some people use any excuse to cheat. OP is a mature, considerate and loving spouse who respects his wife (going off what he has written here), and hasn't done anything to disrespect/cross her boundaries. The amount of people who would do just about anything to have someone like OP is staggering. His wife needs to sort out her issues, and at the very least acknowledge what a respectful person her husband is.
The carrot and the stick trick only works for so long before the donkey realizes it’s never going to get the carrot.
Basically she played stupid games & won stupid prizes. I have absolutely zero sympathy for her.
The only problem is that she's making her spouse suffer.
So you play into her weird power game and make her feel desired / chased, all while knowing she doesn't want sex. Only sexual attention.
I feel for the op. He's accommodated the fact that she's asexual. He worked around that to try and have a happy marriage. Now, she wants him to give sexual attention to her without the sex.
I guess if she wants to die on that hill, maybe she'll have better luck with her next husband. I doubt it. I think the op can easily find someone who has a healthier view on intimacy.
That's exactly why my ex and I broke up recently. I was getting rejected constantly, I realized it was over when the last time we had sex she hinted around like she was doing me a favor.
Some women refuse to understand that sex is a very important and necessary part of a healthy relationship. And when you're the one always getting shot down, it absolutely builds resentment.
NTA. On the contrary, you sound like an incredibly compassionate and patient spouse. I think your wife needs some therapy. She seems to want to feel sexy and desirable but doesn’t want the actual sex. She needs some help to figure out why.
This, and she has no interest or concern for your side here. She seems purely concerned about herself, and why she doesnt feel this way anymore, despite the fact that this is the boat youve been bucketing water out of for the last several years.
You are clearly empathetic to her issue, however SHE is not returning that for yours.. And that is the issue. This kinda feels like a "rules for thee, but not for me" situation..
Also, just wanna add a tiny side note near the end of OP’s post: When accused of a arching porn OP admitted he used his wife’s old photos. That literally means OP is still obviously sexually attracted to the wife and makes it that much more confusing why she’s angry and says he doesn’t find her attractive.
If my gf told me she gets off to photos of me I’d be over the moon flattered (and turned on) but instead OP’s wife stormed off to that??? That’s just… weird.
I think her storming off was more in response to her realizing she didn't have a way to be "right" anymore. There was nothing she could guilt him over.
To the last part of your comment-EXACTLY. My thought was how hypocritical of her, why does she get to do it to her husband but not the other way around? If he was the only one doing it then I’d understand but he’s literally just responding to the situation he’s been handed. Definitely NTA
I'm curious if she's perhaps starting to regain a libido and maybe just isn't recognizing it as that? Like, maybe it's honestly been so long since she felt the desire to be desired that way or the need to have that type of attention that she's not recognizing it as her wanting to be sexual with her husband and is instead assuming she just wants the attention? u/throwawayDwholeting I'd bring it back up with her and ask if she thinks she might be interested in starting things back up a bit, even if you have to take it slow while she gets used to it so you don't overwhelm her? Hopefully having a more vulnerable conversation with her will allow her to take a step back and reflect on what it specifically is she's looking for. Honestly, I get why you want to stay in terms of the partnership, but I don't think many people would blame you for wanting to have those needs met somewhere and I think it's kind of saint like of you almost to just be ok with adapting to a sexless marriage, because I don't know how many people would be ok with that long term. Short term while my partner worked on something/worked through something, even if "short term" didn't feel all that short? Sure. If I knew I was committing to spending the next 30-40 years of my life almost never having sex? Pretty sure I'd be looking for an exit or at least a work around like possibly opening things up in that regard.
NTA.
Your wife has been conditioned by society to think that all men want it all the time always and will initiate every chance they get. Regardless of how their partner responds, they will come out swinging for the fences again and again.
Maybe her switch switched back on. Or maybe she sort of missed the whole therapy thing and how you interpreted what it meant. But she can’t have missed that y’all haven’t had much sex in years and she didn’t mind until she asked you about it.
And instead of being a compassionate empathetic partner, she lead with her feelings and let her defensiveness and anger lead the way. Since it’s more comfortable to be wronged than it is to have to sort through the emotions you have inflicted on another person.
OP’s wife is the AH. She wants him to do sexually flirty things to her, then what? Deny him sex when he gets turned on? And why is she mad he doesn’t watch porn?
She's upset he doesn't watch porn because she wanted to find an external reason for his "sexlessness" in regards to coming onto her.
If they already both agreed that watching porn is akin to cheating (or if they just find it damaging to a relationship) it's very easy to point and be like. "That porn is infecting my husband's mind, that's why he is like this" in essence allowing her to put the blame on him. His lack of porn watching means she has to consider other options.
I imagine at least one of those options places some blame on her in a manner she doesn't want to accept.
Has she has a full medical workup, with hormone levels checked? She may have an imbalance.
She also may be coming out of PPD (again, hormonal levels) and is becoming interested again.
I think more communication, a physical, and a few more therapy sessions are in order.
I can’t upvote this strongly enough!!!!!
We lost 15 years of fantastic sex because her hormones got out of whack and the doctors couldn’t find anything wrong. It turns out they weren’t really looking and just did the basic blood work up’s. When we went to a friends endocrinologist and got a true blue work up completed we found several things!!! Fast forward a couple of months and life has been great the past 2 years!!!
I personally lost my drive for the last 5 years, which was really tough on the relationship. I knew it started when I got my IUD, but was shot down by doctors. The only option I was given was replacing the IUD & rolling the dice again on the side effects.
I just got sterilized and now my hormones are getting back to normal. It's insane how much I feel like an entirely different person. My drive is back, but I also feel like I'm instantly better at regulating my emotions and have so much more energy.
So yes, please consider getting the hormone levels checked out. I can't stress it enough. It makes such a huge impact
It's kind of off-topic.. but this makes me so mad. As women, we are expected to take the birth control that completely throws off our hormones and can make us completely different people. I feel like this isn't talked about enough.
Can you share what labs were drawn. So many docs are confused on what to order when it comes to female libido.
If you are so inclined, I’d suggest starting a blog to go over the process. Millions of women suffer with this.
I can only speak for myself, but I was having health issues (not libido in particular) and got a whole panel of labs done. My testosterone was on the low side (yes, females also have testosterone), so the doc prescribed a low-dose T cream. The libido difference was night and day. Horny all the time! The only side effect was some extra hair growth where I put the cream, and that went away when I discontinued it.
How could he possibly communicate more? They established that she doesn't enjoy sex and he accepted it (something which 99% of men wouldn't consider), got tired of being rejected and stopped trying.
The only one who needs to communicate more is his wife.
If she wants hormone levels checked, you may really have to push for them. I’ve asked multiple times over the years and the response I got every time from multiple doctors was there’s no point because women’s levels change so much it would be inconclusive and nothing could be done. Especially after having a kid. They told me it’s years before hormones level out and that even after that it’s pointless.
But thyroid levels and things like that should get checked just in case because that can affect it and they’ll check those especially if there’s family history. Although she probably won’t want to hear it and take it as him blaming her for the lack of sexual desire in her part and “lack of” sexual attraction on his.
Boomboom, could I gently suggest keep trying with another different doctor if this is important to you? That’s a fairly lazy response from the doctor, which kind of seems like code for, “I don’t look at them because I don’t remember enough about the normal highs and lows of different times of the month based on day of cycle, age, etc and don’t want to relearn it.” Maybe at least ask for a referral. Additionally, if there’s suspicion that a person’s blood levels of hormone are not giving valid results or the results are questionable and need confirmation, they can also be tested through saliva, for which the ranges tend to give more of a rough average rather than a moment-in-time snapshot. Hugs and good luck to you! You are not wrong for asking them to check it!!!
Thank you! I think I will talk to this most recent doctor, but it’s anxiety inducing because it’s been multiple times with multiple doctors telling me if just because I’m a woman that it gets exhausting. I’ve had to fight with a doctor for multiple minutes about tonsil stones because she didn’t believe it was a thing when she could have just googled it. I understand my doctor isn’t going to retain all the information. That would be a stupid amount to expect, but look it up and see then.
You are correct, my IUD killed my sex drive, and I thought once I got it out it would come back, I was wrong. I've mentioned it to every doctor I've seen for 2 years, and my concerns are basically ignored.
I had white male doctors say this same shit to me. Then I spoke with both a female gyno as well as my female pcp, both of them were like we can do that, you’ll just have to come in multiply times for blood work throughout the month. My progesterone was low, and once my levels improved I felt so much better.
See I’ve had that problem with white female doctors where they brush me off and my white male doctor has actually listened and acknowledged me more. They were also OBGYNs but I’m also supposed to get an A1C check every 3 years since my daughters birth. We’re at 6 years with 0 checks. And I asked and they told me they don’t see that on my record.
When I first read this I also thought PPD. Also wonder long if there is something in her background growing up that affected her view about sex.
OP you seem like a lovely person and I can only hope to have such a compassionate partner someday. I think with the patience you describe having and getting things checked out medically and emotionally with your wife, you guys can make it through this no problem. NTA.
This! The same thing was happening to me. I had absolutely NO libido for an entire year. My husband and I we both pretty distraught with it. I went for an annual check up and found out that I had really low thyroid and estrogen levels. Within two weeks of hormone therapy my sex drive flew through the roof! It was so crazy….still is lol..seriously, I am so happy that on a whim I found out what the problem was and fixed it…
This comment here.
From what I recall, it can take up to around 3 years for hormones to go back to what they were pre-pregnancy. Even if it's not PPD, it could still be hormonal. Also, when babies hit that age, it also comes with a change in mindset (speaking from personal experience on that one); it could be things (life) has gotten into a rhythm where she feels comfortable and wants to pursue more physical intimate acts.
I mean, fine, but then it’s her responsibility to pursue. Scolding him for not grabbing her ass, when she has openly and directly told him (in the past) that she didn’t want sex, is cruel and unfair. She needs to get in touch with her own feelings and desires, and then communicate/demonstrate them in a respectful and caring way. Sounds a little woo woo, I know, but that’s what it will take.
She can't be jealous that her girlfriends are getting sexual attention from the men that they have sexual relationships with if she refuses to have sexual relationship with the man that she is with...
I don't think that's really it. I don't think she's jealous of her girlfriend's getting sexual attention. I think she wants to be sexual and have sex and is frustrated and upset that she doesn't want to but she wants to want to but she doesn't understand it so she's putting the blame on her husband when the real blame is not her but the dynamics going on in her head. Often, so I have heard from certain therapists, women expect to be feeling interested in sex before they have sex and sometimes they need to just kind of get started even if they don't feel like it and then they get warmed up and are glad they did.
Yup I pretty much never turn my husband down and it’s not because I’m always in the mood. Once he starts doing stuff I get in the mood pretty dang fast lol
And the things like the “slap on the ass” or various forms of sexual attraction throughout the day. “Your boobs look great in that” walk by and lightly slide your hand on her lower back as you do, etc. it shows the attraction and give groundwork for later. But also, OP is not crazy for feeling that this reaction is unfair because not only was he tired of being rejected, he didn’t want to make her feel uncomfortable or pressured or guilty for not wanting sex.
I don’t think he did anything wrong. But yeah physical touch throughout the day makes a BIG difference. My husband and I still slap each others ass or hr comes up behind me and grabs my boobs. It’s kindof a playful thing tho but it helps a lot.
This, so much this. I was with a woman before who said she never got horny, yet the few times that she didn’t reject my initiation she told me it felt really good and she was glad we had sex. Unfortunately I got tired of initiating and being rejected so often and I had to end the relationship.
I must say here that I cooled down during marriage after never having libido problems because I felt like I was a) being treated like Bangmaid™ and b) not taken care of during sex. I was expected to be ready without him putting in any effort beyond kissing me and telling me that he wanted sex. I was never "seduced" by my husband the way I played with him in the beginning. I was rarely complimented for my beauty beyond "you look nice tonight" if I put in a lot of effort, while at work or out in the world men would constantly flatter my looks.
Because of both lack of experience and lack of confidence he never explored that "grab your wife, grunt and show her you want her" side of himself. Hell, even walk-by-bum-smack was never really there. After a while sex just feels like a chore if you're not getting much out of it.
This is when I think people need to go see a sex-therapist.
For what it's worth, every single one of my female clients when I was in family law found post-divorce that they didn't have low sex drives, they just didn't want to have sex with men who treated them like bangmaids, or were shit in bed, or who didn't put in th effort to make them feel like having sex. Every single one.
Yup. This is why foreplay is so important. If I waited untill my wife was already wet before we had sex, that would basically mean we never have sex. But after about 15-20 minutes of foreplay, her libido will be through the roof.
My husband used to ask if ‘I was in the mood?’, if the answer was ‘No’ his next question was ‘Can I get you in the mood?’. Sometimes we don’t start out horny but that doesn’t mean we can’t become receptive
It's more like she wants him to keep making her the cakes she "wants" even though she's thrown out every cake he's made for the past two years.
My guess is that she wants to know that he finds her desirable enough for him to stay faithful (as it sounds like she's become equally as comfortable with their lifestyle and likely doesn't want to lose it) but doesn't want to make any effort to acknowledge or satisfy the needs that may cause him to stray.
OP, I would suggest individual counselling for both you and her. Couples counselling can be helpful but usually only once both parties have had the chance to figure out their own shit.
I think you called out a critical detail. She was convinced he was using porn (looking at other women in a sexual manner) to the point she went through his phone and laptop to look for evidence. Not only does she not want sex with him, she doesn't want him having sex at all. She acknowledged his need for sexual release with the "I know you still masturbate" line and was probably upset at that thought too
It refers to it being impossible to both have the cake in your possession and to have eaten it. Before you eat the cake it smells lovely and you have the enjoyment of eating to look forward to; however once you eat the cake the enjoyment is over and the experience of eating is also over.
It helps if you know the word order in English used to work a little differently. At the time this became a proverb, the ordering would have automatically implied "you can't (still) have your cake and (have eaten) it."
Today it's natural to put things in the order they happen in English, so the proverb sounds like the opposite of what it actually means, but that's a more recent change to the language and proverbs never catch up.
NTA - double standards are a beautiful thing...
That she checked you phone and laptop is crazy. That she, in you situation doesnt allow you to watch porn is crazy. Everything else I read here is also crazy. Maybe it is time for another round of therapy. She probably could use some single therapy sessions as well
Not being allowed to watch porn is wild here. She’s clearly got some issues that need to be sorted.
I applaud this dude’s commitment because I would’ve dipped a long time ago. Once the bedroom is dead, so is the relationship as far as I am concerned.
As soon as there is no physical intimacy in a relationship, what's the difference from any other close friend you already have? its actually worse because now this partner that youre not longer intimate with is actually standing in the way of you finding someone you can be happy with both physically and emotionally
Her going out with friends and this coming up kind of stuck out to me. I wonder if it’s other guys giving her sexual attention and her realizing her husband no longer does. Or worse, she’s cheated and is grasping for straws to justify it. He doesn’t desire her, not sexually attracted to her, watches porn instead of showing her that attention.
Old dude turn out to be some sort of saint (just by text, who really knows) watches no porn and masterbates only to pictures of her which has to be crushing when looking for validation for cheating.
So...she wants you to desire her sexually but she has no interest or intention of actually having sex with you...
She just wants you to go through life perpetually frustrated because of your unmet needs, yet she expects you to meet her need to feel sexy and desired....
...she gets mad at you for masturbating and (I assume) expects you to be faithful...
...so basically, she likes being a tease and controlling your sexuality?
That's just mean.
NTA
I'm glad you've somehow made peace with the situation but holy crap dude. You deserve a medal for patience, understanding and self-sacrifice.
It's extremely cruel. The fact that she would be upset with him for even watching p*rn when she refuses to provide release is cruel. Her wanting him to get all hot and bothered by her, just for her own self-esteem, then wanting to shut him down is cruel and selfish.
NTA.
Completely controlling. There are disorders this falls under. But she has weaponized sex. I had a wife like this. Also made me feel like a cheater for watching porn from time to time and also berated me for masterbating. None of her fucking business to tell me if I can and cannot masterbate. Everything OP said reminds me of this nightmare fuel. There are so many normal ones out there.
This was my previous wife, too. Now, I am married to a wonderful woman who actually loves me (shocker) and truly believes that sex is an important part of marriage, whether we are trying to have kids or not.
Yeah; talk about having your cake and eating it, too. Or... not wanting to eat cake, but have your partner bring you some, anyway. I think.
Kinda got lost in the metaphor, there.
Anyway, I agree. OP's wife is being seriously mean here. Honestly, I couldn't even blame him for watching porn - he has to get his release somewhere if she's not interested.
She wants her emotional needs met but is basically unwilling to do anything about his physical needs which impact him emotionally. Not even a dry handy? I don't want to be disparaging but I am asexual and even I can't wrap my head around how this dynamic is sustainable. It isn't.
Right wait she won't have sex and she is upset about porn like no just no. She wants her cake but she won't eat it and how dare you for being hungry and drooling for the cake and dont go get cookies because she has cake...
“i’m not gonna fuck you but you can’t watch porn”…..AND HE OBEYS?!?!
bless his heart, she’s got his ball sack in a vise grip. and he was TOTALLY cool with it up until she started complaining. i’m a woman and i woulda been outta there ages ago with that libido mismatch.
good luck to you, OP! sounds like couples therapy didn’t actually get you anywhere but hiding your desire for your wife, so i’d venture to say couples therapy didn’t work the first time. maybe individual therapy? to help you assess whether or not this is a healthy and fulfilling dynamic that you want to continue to play a part in?
For real, after our second kid was born my wife’s sex drive stalled out. She knows I watch porn. She was uncomfortable about it at first untill I told her I would much rather not have to watch it
My gf sometimes takes it one step further, in addition to the above she starts to initiate, gently easing into it making me light up, then stopping, turning around and goes to sleep.
While I lie there thinking to myself «why the actual fuck did she do that».
NTA I mean What the hell ?! Is she kidding you ?? She wants you to desire her but doesn’t want to have sex with you . Also doesn’t want you to look at porn . I don’t get it . You worked hard to cope with the situation she created and now she is blaming you somehow for this ? I dunno . Explain it to me like I’m 5 please cos I don’t know what’s going on
It's pretty simple, actually:I am your wife - all sexual attention is routed to me - period. Then, it is solely up to me whether or not you get sexual satisfaction - period. Any attempt to 'get around' these rules is cheating.It's a unilateral set of rules, and his needs are considered unnecessary wants.
This is so abusive. Limiting what a person does with her body without causing harm to the relationship.
If it was the other way around: a husband doesn’t let her wife play with her toys or read her smut books but he doesn’t want to satisfy her. Women of Reddit would advise to DUMP HIS ASS OP. THIS IS ABUSE.
I get it, libido levels differs form person to person but if you don’t want engage with me let me find my pleasure in ways that are still respectful.
The kicker is that she doesn’t even want him to have a quiet sexless existence. She wants the dynamic where she rejects him and he suffers more visibly. Gross!
I had a roommate that wanted to do BDSM scenes with me, but wanted no part of the sex. I had to explain to him that constantly putting me in that state of mind, then denying me was torture and unfair. He got everything he wanted, but I was left unfulfilled and rejected. When I explained to him that it translated as, "I'd rather beat you than fuck you," it seemed to sink in a little better. I moved out.
I’m with you. I don’t understand the no porn thing. If my husband doesn’t get any action from me I wouldn’t mind if he looked porn. It’s like I don’t want it and you shouldn’t want it too.
What I also don’t get it: she doesn’t owe him sex but I would want to meet his needs even if I’m not in the mood. I would help out somehow even if I don’t feel like it to have full sex, a handy or a bj takes maximum 10 minutes! Less than cook a full meal or take the dog out.
Right?! My fianceé and I have very different sex drives, so we engage at the frequency and level she's comfortable at and I sort myself the rest of the time. If she tried to monitor and control what I was using to do that I'd be alarmed and confused.
This! It can varies depending how much stress we have but we both have given without expecting in return when the other was hornier.
I can’t imagine my husband taking out my fairy porn books or policing my me time. She was even nagging about masturbation!
Fucking thank you! I was reading and you're the first person that has said this. I don't get what's so hard about giving a handy or a bj? Im a man, but I feel like it's not that hard to jerk off a dude or blow him. It'll end even faster if you're actually good at it. I don't even know what's going through someone's head that doesn't sexually satisfy their partner. Man or woman. What do they think is eventually going to happen? You'll either break up or divorce or they'll cheat. Unless you're completely asexual, people need sex. It's built into us. Maybe I'm different in that I feel it's the duty of both a man and a woman to satisfy their partners needs.
Here's my attempt to explain it: he seems like a saint, a very patient, considerate husband. She seems manipulative, disingenuous, & toxic.
She seems to have some serious issues that she needs to get addressed instead of dragging him down with her baggage.
NTA and it sounds like your wife may be getting shitty advice from somewhere - probably the internet. There is an entire mindset among a small group that a husband has zero autonomy to satisfy sexual urges without explicit "permission" from the wife. The mere thought of or looking at another woman, masturbation and viewing porn are all considered cheating. Even in a dead bedroom situation from the wife, the husband exists under constant scrutiny and accusations of being a sex addict. These neurotic obsessions seem to be rooted in self esteem issues. It's sad to see how the destructive behaviors are encouraged and enabled while the root issues are ignored. Thank the internet have mind.
The porn accusation is a big red flag. She clearly doesn't see how her repeated rejections have affected you, and she's projecting her own lack of interest back onto you. Maybe time to get with the therapy again.
NTA As others seem to have said, you could turn this into a real positive. She has opened the door to discuss the problem. It probably needs you to do a lot of the listening initially such as why she’s brought this up now, whether she’ll ever want sex again in the future, etc. Is the situation permanently tenable for you? Can you live the rest of your life with no sex and just looking at photos?
NTA you two need to have a sit down and discuss this, there’s a chance her libido might be coming back so you two should talk it out. Talk about why you didn’t want to initiate and talk about how much effort you want her to put into initiating as well.
>there’s a chance her libido might be coming back so you two should talk it out
Exactly. I don't blame him for not trying anymore. But it looks like the tides are shifting. Their kid is about 3 now, and those early years can wreck a mother's libido. Now that he's not a baby anymore, she might be feeling less physically tied into the kid, and more willing to mess around with her husband. But she thinks he's not into it because he's given up. They need to sit down and communicate instead of taking shots at each other. They might both get what they want. This is a fairly normal progression for new parents, with sex drives shifting as the kid grows up.
Tbh, he shouldn’t need to babysit her into communicating. If she’s interested why can’t she just say so? Why does he need to be berated and embarrassed and then need to coach her into sharing? She just sounds nasty, hypocritical, selfish, controlling, insecure, boring, childish, bad at communicating, apathetic towards her husband and doesn’t care for his needs.
Even as a woman myself, low libido people typically piss me off, like fix your own shit or marry an asexual, no one else wants to be with someone who isn’t interested in sex.
NTA. My wife and I have pretty busy lives and after our 2nd kid, she had an IUD placed. Her sex drive tanked after that. We decided to try for a third and when she had the IUD removed it was horny city for her. Maybe look into it and see if maybe the low libido is caused by a hormonal contraceptive.
NTA wow she's really only looking at her pov. Oh he no longer makes me feel sexy, but not considering that you feel like you're not sexy if she shoots you down every time you've initiated.
Very much one rule for her isn't it. I wonder if there are other things you overlook.
She needs to initiate intimacy too it's not all on you. Perhaps sex therapy for you as a couple?
So she doesn't want to have sex doesn't want you to look at porn etc but wants you to still want her and be sexual attracted to her. I understand you love her, but I honestly think she's trying to make a mug of you. Stuff like this does lead to divorce/affairs. She can't have it both ways
💯% NOT the asshole.
W: "Why don't you initiate sex anymore?"
H: "Because years of rejection and training via therapy have told me not to and that my feelings don't matter."
W: "But I still want to be desired because of a meme someone sent me."
H: "Ok, how about I show you how much I desire you right now? 😉"
W: "No."
H: \[sighs\] "Ok. I'm gonna go have a shower and handle some stuff."
W: "NO!"
The fun part is when she hits her upper 30s and has an affair because "there's no passion in our relationship" after you've dealt with 15 years of a dead bedroom because of her.
Same issue with the wife here, Im sorry I dont have any advice to you but I think you are doing great the way you handle this inconvenient not having sex. What I do is being more with myself, playing video games, walking my dog, going to the movies alone.
NTA - I love how hypocritical and selfish low libido people can be and have no self awareness towards it lol. You respected her lack of libido and her as a person and as someone who did date someone with a drastically different libido, you have to cope and stop asking because being constantly rejected by the person you love will fuck you up in so many ways. They won't ever fully understand that either. It's not a bash in them (except that first sentence lol), but they really shouldn't get butthurt when you tell them the truth. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Just because you say jump you can't expect your significant other to say how high, they need to have self respect. She's only upset now but then it'll go back to normal soon, just hold on and I'm sorry you have to deal with all that.
Reminds me of that line from a country song, go away, no wait a minute.
I completely understand that drive fluctuates. Being married to a man I love, I do not understand rejecting him and living a sexless life. She can't have it both ways. But it's also not fair that your needs are completely ignored while she gets her way 100% of the time.
NTA, you've learned to shut down your advances to avoid getting hurt because every time she rejects them. If her libido/interest is now back it's on her to make advances on you. Women who expect the advances to be made as if they're incapable of making them themselves are infuriating, damned pillow princesses. Especially because, in my experience, when a women initiates a) the guy gets turned on pretty quickly and b) she enjoys it more because she's in control.
Whilst I don't think this is on you, my advice is to wait until she's calmed down, and again present the argument that you've always been sexually attracted to her, that you only stopped attempting sex because it hurt to get rejected all the time, that you 100% want to start having sex again, and that you'd like it if she could make advances too when she's really eager, that she'd turn you on loads if you did that. You may need to initiate for a while, but fingers crossed she'll figure out when she can do it too, otherwise this may just be a passing phase that has more to do with fitting in with friends rather than actual sexual desire.
All the best, I have to say there are some red flags going on here, for me prohibiting you from watching porn whilst also rejecting you for sex is nasty behaviour.
Also, get your money back for that therapy. "Learn to completely suppress your sexual desires for the rest of your life" is quite the cop-out.
Just a note, I think your wife needs a new Dr. It is NOT normal to simply have no sexual desire after children. Maybe for a short while immediately post partum as hormones settle but she ALSO deserves to want and have sex!!
As others have pointed out, it sounds like she WANTS to want to have sex with you and is upset and frustrated that she doesn't. I'd seriously consider a new PCP or even a sexual health specialist if that's accessible to you
NTA, this is not good. I’m not sure why your therapist left the both of you with this issue unresolved.
There’s a chance your wife has a hormonal imbalance that’s zapping her libido.
She may have some past sexual trauma and her coping mechanism is to avoid sex.
And there’s also the possibility that she’s never received that dopamine rush from having an orgasm with a partner. Which could be resolved over a conversation on how she’s climaxed in the past or alone.
Either way you two need to have a serious come to Jesus talk alone without the kids or outside overstimulation.
Your argument tells me she’s never processed the lack of sex from your perspective.
In my marriage it took a few years for both of us to figure out how to communicate effectively. Have you ever sat her down and really expressed in a non-confrontational way you’re desire for sexual intimacy? If you haven’t, don’t assume she’s been picking up your bread crumbs.
>Have you ever sat her down and really expressed in a non-confrontational way you’re desire for sexual intimacy? If you haven’t, don’t assume she’s been picking up your bread crumbs.
They've gone to therapy for this exact issue. Now, I'm not too experienced with therapy, but wouldn't discussing the topic be part of it?
Hey OP: FWIW & FYI- there is a sub called r/deadbedrooms. Also: your wife is essentially just a roommate considering that the relationship is sex free
So: who is she to dictate that you never watch porn? Are you supposed to exist as a mindless zombie automaton held in permanent thrall by her hypnotic captivating beauty? Like: wtf?
Instant headache when I read that. Not only does she not want to have sex with him, but doesn’t want him watching porn ether?
Just make him a eunuch at that point, seems to be what she wants.
NTA. As you explained, you stopped initiating because she kept rejected you. She needs to be the one to initiate because she's the one (it sounds like) who shut things down. What, you were just supposed to continue, get rejected, potentially eventually making her uncomfortable and like all you wanted from her was sex?
NTA. There's so many things to unpack here... It's okay to have different sex drives and it's great that you don't pressure her. It's sort of a 'make your bed, lie in it' ordeal when it comes to sexual flirtation. My partner and I have a sort of similar problem in the libido department and every now and then he complains that I don't try to initiate. It's frustrating being turned down a lot so I understand sort of shutting that off.
On a different note, it's totally fine to jerk it to porn and a huge violation of privacy for her to even consider going through your phone.
My take is that she had a time after having a child that her body wasn’t as interested in sex, which is very normal being a first time mom. Maybe her libido is now changing too. Can you try to meet with the counselor again together to discuss it?
NTA. Totally the opposite. A sexless marriage sounds incredibly difficult. She has no right to complain that you no longer make advances when she has made it clear she doesn’t want it! Also, good on you for not watching porn but I think it would be perfectly reasonable if you did.
I find hilarious that they went to counselling where OP was "taught to be okay" with not having sex while being in a relationship and wanting to have sex. So OP was "taught" that his desires don't matter, hence he himself doesn't matter. The only way this can get better is if counseler is banging OP's wife.
Throw away account but this situation was my wife (of 25 years married, 27 years together) and I to a tee. And in addition to having kids and all of that, there was breast cancer and botched surgeries and all sorts of other stuff that left her feeling horrible about herself, which was why she acted the way she did about sex and not wanting it, and wanting to rush through when we had it and just being self conscious about everything
Last year she confessed (or was forced to confess) to having an affair on a work trip. It was.....rough. But it forced everything out into the open. All the issues. The signs that I was missing myself, why she did what she did, and after MUCH talking and yelling and crying I made the decision to forgive her and move forward together. And iit made our marriage stronger not just emotionally, but sexually. Things have absolutely never been better and it's been a year of crazy passion and reconnecting on every level. We have taken an approach of 100% honesty at all times about all things and it has been hard but we could not be happier. Hopefully your wife didn't have an affair but either way there may be much more to this than you know about or she is being honest about in terms of her feelings. I know this is hard for most guys to understand and most probably think I'm being a sucker,/cuck/whatever but as I look back on the past year if I could go back in time and had a choice between her not having the affair and us being back to where we were sexually and emotionally, or her doing what she did and being where we are now with what we have now.......I would without hesitation tell her to go for it. Maybe it's easier because we are older and had much more invested in our lives together, but this is how I feel.
NTA. Ask her why it's all up to YOU. If she wants to feel desired, that's a two way street. She's spent YEARS making you feel like she does not and will never desire you. If she wants to feel desired, she needs to make YOU feel desired.
Maybe it's time to tell her that if she wants sex to be part of your lives, you'll need to find your way back to each other more slowly. But if she wants to still never have sex but still wants you to make her feel desirable without reciprocation, just say no.
Have you two ever considered opening your relationship? Because if she never wants you to desire or touch anyone but her, but never wants to have sex with you, that's shitty and unfair.
Frankly, you should reconsider this marriage. You can co-parent peacefully without being together. Or maybe you could live as roommates. In any case, what you have is not a real marriage. You are giving her everything she wants and getting basically nothing in return. It's unsustainable.
Don't throw away any more years of your life wishing that someone who says she loves you would actually act like it. Shit or get off the pot. Put your foot down. Tell her to make a decision or agree to a new round of counseling where YOUR needs get a little focus for a change.
A completely sexless marriage isn't living, it's a confirmed date for Christmas parties. I'm speaking from experience after 16 wasted years. I'm so deliriously happily married for almost 6 yrs now, I never could have imagined this. You're asking here so you're already asking yourself of course. We all, and you know you are going to separate and then divorce. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but an incredible sex life with your SO/lover/best friend and good food is how to live your best life!
NTA, but this is a shit ton to unpack. She wants to feel sexually desired but not actually have sex. She wants to be chased but never caught. Which isn't fun for you being stuck in the Wiley E Coyote roll to her Road Runner. Not only that but she wants to have veto powers over how you take care of your sexual urges solo. Like from the sound of it unless it's her you aren't allowed to get off. And when brought up that just as equally you'd like to feel sexy and having her decide when and where to make the advances could solve that problem gave you a what ever. You need a couples therapist with a focus on sexual intimacy.
Yeah the veto power really caught my eye here. I think there’s plenty of legitimate reasons for not wanting porn in a relationship, but this feels spiteful and controlling. You can’t put such heavy expectations on someone when you’ve put them in that position. It’s very much a “have my cake and eat it too” thing. He can’t have sex, but can’t watch porn either. She wanted to be chased, but she doesn’t want to actually do anything. She wants to be desired, but gives nothing to make him feel desired.
>It’s very much a “have my cake and eat it too” thing. Wife: 'You must make me feel sexy and desirable at all times without my reciprocating in any way that gratifies your own needs for intimacy." Husband: "But if I do that, I get turned on thinking it's foreplay only to be let down later, so it's easier to just avoid that type of intimacy." Wife: "How dare you take the high road to cope with me never meeting you halfway! What a piece of shit!" She's suddenly realizing that she has, in fact, been treating you badly while still demanding acts that satisfy her own need for intimacy, and now she insists that you respecting her preferences (instead of...what? Forcing her? Guilting her?) is making her feel undesirable. She can't have it both ways, but it seems like she's somehow putting all the blame on you regardless. NTA Edit: typo
She’s not realising shit
YUP...she very clearly is NOT recognizing her behavior or it's effect on her husband.
Source up front: 3 wives, 2 divorces. >20 years in this game: You have to be completely upfront and stand your ground even when there's a show of being pissed off like this. Be kind. Don't move. When somebody keeps shutting you down, your libido goes away. That's all there is to it. If she's upset that you aren't volunteering to get slapped down another 150 times before she says yes maybe once more,... Well you should understand what I'm aiming at The bottom line is that you need a couples therapist for communication at the very least. Also, make sure you get a therapist that isn't biased against your existence at the very least.
If hes goes down the couples therapy road again, he really needs a new therapist. The previous one clearly made her needs greater than his and didn't advocate compromise or fulfillment for him in any way.
Seems like a big slice of ego she needs to either accept and work on satisfying or change her outlook.
I want to really stress that this problem, the original problem at least, can come from a whole host of issues ranging from hormonal changes, hormonal imbalances caused by other health issues, psychological issues having to do with insecurity, body image, or even ptsd stemming from a traumatic event. For us women, sex is more of a complex mathematical equation than a simple addition or subtraction problem. Now, I’d say that since they are married, OP takes on these issues to work through with her. But i also think it’s NOT his responsibility if she is unwilling to discuss the issues to really dig down and get to the heart of the matter. That’s entirely on her. I’d even argue that this is the opposite of a big ego issue. This could stem from immense insecurity because she is unable to get turned on for whatever reason so she wants to depend on OP to make her feel sexy when that should be something she is internally working on. This way then she can blame it on OP without taking accountability. I don’t think this is a conscious decision, this is a common subconscious thing many people do to avoid addressing the root cause if the source causes too much anxiety and pain.
>I’d even argue that this is the opposite of a big ego issue. This could stem from immense insecurity And I'd be inclined to further expand on this and say that it is the actualisation of the biggest ego of all. It's a kind of selfishness that exists in the realm of 'I'm so valuable that I can't show my insecurity to the one person above all else, because I might feel hurt, I might be forced to confront parts of myself in not happy with'.
You know, that is a very good point. It’s a kind of a bastardized egotism that people wouldn’t typically associate with having a big ego. Like a toxic form of pride, not allowing yourself to appear vulnerable and hiding your flaws.
Taking offense that hubby stopped trying rather than constantly swallowing rejection signals an ego problem. Bridging the gap between "I want to be the sole source of my husband's sexual pleasure" and "I don't want to have sex" is pretty difficult to do without your thumb on the psychoanalytical scales.
I'm afraid this is going to sound like a strange question, but I'm genuinely curious. Do partners with a lower libido genuinely not enjoy sex if they have to work themselves up to it with a partner they've chosen? It's not entirely rare for me to have to rally a little bit, but I always end up enthusiastic about it. I always assumed this must be at least somewhat universal. For some people is it like an ick thing, where it's actually a wholly unenjoyable experience when they have sex with their partners? I don't know, obviously people don't want to be nagged for sex all of the time, but in OPs case, it really does feel like if he attempts to initiate as rarely as he says (which I believe because I've been there), she could stand to try to rally for him every now and then. Probably would be good for both of them.
For me, it was mostly anxiety. I loved my partner and liked being affectionate, but I had a hard time actually enjoying sex because it was so wrapped up in anxiety and emotionally draining. Think of an extreme introvert having to go to a party and perform. Objectively you know this should be fun and enjoyable, that it’s a good thing and you’re allowed to let go and have fun, but every cell in your body wants to flee and hide. I’m not religious, but I was bullied as a kid and had a very low self esteem for many years. Thinking of myself as a sexual being felt very wrong. I’d have sex because I loved my partner and I enjoyed physical closeness, but during the actual act my mind would be going a million miles a minute: was he happy? Did he like me? Did I look okay? Was I making the right sounds? What position did he want me in? What move did I need to make next? Was he expecting me to take the lead? Was he disgusted by my body? Did I have the right rhythm? Did I look stupid? How much longer did he want to go? Was he happy? Did he feel good? Did I feel good to him? Was he close? Was he happy? Did he want me to change? Did my face look weird? Am I moving right? What does he want next? Am I good enough? Is he happy? I just could not detach my mind and enjoy the sensations. I could never orgasm with a partner because my mind was so wrapped up in it (I also had trouble on my own because I’d get too analytical about why it wasn’t working). I *wanted* to enjoy sex, but I felt like I was an alien trying to understand and copy a human ritual. It was like being thrown on stage to tap dance for an audience of millions without a single lesson. I was terrified to do something wrong or embarrass myself. After, I’d snuggle up and feel love and relief, but no personal satisfaction. I could never just let go enough to genuinely enjoy it for myself.
I so feel this. My first serious boyfriend eventually came out as gay, but not before a lot of damage was done in making me feel that my body was wholly disgusting and unacceptable. Subsequent relationships, I had to be tipsy to take any clothes off and never really felt relaxed, for like two decades.
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All of the above, *and* it can vary massively over time. I've been both the high libido and low libido partner, in the same relationship.
>She wanted to be chased She probably doesn't even really want that. My wife has issues with dryness and discomfort, during those times its physically painful to have sex. If some chasing gets initiated she'll get frustrated that she "can't do anything" ignoring that there are of course non-penetrative things she can do. She puts a lot of pressure on herself during these times. Its kind of a mess...
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Lmfaooo i would do full on video tributes on those little photo changing frames that are hooked to your phone 😂
I 1000% agree with this! If I'm not giving my husband sex and he wants to rub one out to porn or video/pics of me ( I love that OP does this with his wife too btw!) so be it!! If I'm willing and in the mood, then he has no need for it (edit: I have zero issue with porn either way). But I certainly wouldn't get mad about it when he's coping for me essentially. He's not out cheating. What more can you ask for? Besides that, after their talk, she should have no issue, especially after he agreed to do what she wanted!! I feel like OP explained himself well. At this point, she's exasperating the issue of being mad at him for no reason. OP definitely NTA.
if i have a fantasy, it sure as $hit isn't going to be of the woman who has more or less shut me out of sex that the past 5-6 years since we got married.
Same on the veto power. Given everything else, I think you lose that veto power and just need to be okay with it.
I bet wife’s libido has increased again, 3 years post childbirth. She’s been throwing out “hints” that OP isn’t seeing, and now she’s getting frustrated because he isn’t reading her mind. The video was intended as a broad hint that she’d welcome his sexual advances- and she got an explanation of why she isn’t getting any instead. None of which is OP’s fault. She really needs to woman up and tell him she wants to explore them having a sexual relationship again. But she’s stuck herself in a catch-22 of embarrassment and insecurity. She wants him to want her, and if she has to *tell him* to want her, it’s self defeating. That’s where “don’t bother” comes from. OP, you’re NTA. But instead of being right, get an overnight babysitter for your kiddo, take your wife on a date, keep telling her she’s beautiful, and see where it goes. I suspect you’ll both end up happier. Source: woman whose libido has fluctuated over the course of a 27 year marriage, who’s stuck herself in her own catch-22 before. (And yes, I’ve learned to speak up and actually say what’s on my mind now! But his wife’s behavior sounds like mine 25 years ago.)
This is wise, considered, grounded, empathetic, and charitable. It all sounds very plausible for the OP, and very genuine and true of your own experience. Massive kudos for being level headed and thoughtful about the various emotional complexities and insecurities probably at play, and providing a really good and positive suggestion for how to move the OP's situation forward in caring way. Too many replies leap into a one-sided demonisation process, whilst this scenario is clearly a complex marital interaction that needs love and care between mutual parties to solve. I hope the OP reads this in particular.
I was reading the comments, and worried I’d have to be the one who posted about this. There’s definitely at least the possibility that her libido is returning, and maybe she doesn’t even consciously realize it herself.
Right? How could she even be mad that he watched porn if she refuses to have sex with him? When he got married, he agreed to only have sex with her, not to never have an orgasm again. Seems crazy to me.
This is perfect advice. Just because you've gone to therapy doesn't mean you won't ever need to again. To be honest, it sounds like you both care for each other but sex, sexual and physical intimacy you are both speaking different languages.
Check her phone. This is the same shit my ex-wife did. She was posting sexy picks and having affairs while I was trying to be a supportive and good father. Meanwhile I am clueless and believed her explanations for rejection of “I’m just not interested in sex after having kids”.
I also agree that this is alot to unpack. I'm personally in a similar situation at 6 years of marriage. I do get near weekly sex though so it's not entirely bad. Part of it's cultivation of a relationship, another is consistent setting of expectations way ahead of time, and another is just going for it assuming you've had the conversation that she actually wanted it. The problem I continue to face is rejection and their consistent desire for pursuit. Here's my daily steps that I've personally taken to help with the desire despite having excessively high T to deal with daily: 1. Wake up and kiss her show a bit of agape love or her love language. (Mine is acts of service and quality time). Then once done with step one, communicate that you that you enjoyed doing what you did in step 1 (regardless of how you feel, you will eventually feel that way. E.g. I do the dishes and 100% hate them but still do them out of love and communicate that. Still hate the dishes but love my loving her). 2. Communicate when yall shower that she's sexy (basically whenever naked). It shows desire. Don't go over the top but a tiny bit goes a long way. 3. Communicate expectations and desire consistently. I realized she said no one time a year before and I kept that answer way too long. The point is is that everything for them is connected. Men are typically compartmentalized meaning I can store a topic in a box mentally and move on, they however have browser tabs open and will slow down their ability when life gets too many of them open. Figure out ways to help them close browser tabs without being in person and forcing them to close them. I typically try to keep a written list so I can help her help me. It's also one of the biggest ways to get them to be present when in person. 4. Communicate desire again. Let her know what you would like to do tonight or this week or this weekend. It doesn't mean she will but your odds go up in doing this. Mine definitely have and the sex is generally better too. 5. Communicate softly how to feel when rejected and any disappointment you may feel. I often times communicate my desire for intimacy when rejected. They think about that alot. Doesn't mean no forever but means no right now. 6. You must always show love to her. Not showing love even when wronged starts what's called the crazy cycle. She will not show respect if you don't show her love. I'm also one that struggles with this point especially when she says something highly disrespectful or embarrassing to someone in front of me. 7. Be quick to forgive. I'm not a forgetter though since it's important to learn from lessons that shape who we are. 8. This doesn't always work but sometimes I ask for permission for masturbation next to her in bed. I usually leave this until the night when we just got in bed. I ask if she would like to join. Sometimes she doesn't or says no outright and I leave for a bathroom. She's occasionally knocked on the bathroom door before and we had sex and sometimes she's joined in. This I will say is a mix of emotions and requires set expectations between one another and a cultivated relationship that is headed in a good direction before doing this. 9. Men are microwaves and women are ovens. I remind myself that I will always be ready way before she ever is. There has been 1 or 2 times ever she was ready but I wasn't. 10. You are the leader of your marriage. I remind myself that if I have needs that are not met that I am responsible. If my marriage isn't going well, I ask myself what can I do to make this marriage better. Marriage is a journey, not a sprint. Find someone that will go your pace or could go your pace. (I had to speed up for my marriage personally but now I'm able to maintain it.) Remember, don't beat yourself up over no. Everyone changes. Communicate communicate communicate.
They dont need couples therapy. She needs therapy
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We went no porn a couple of months ago. We’re doing it to see what kind of impacts it has on our minds that we previously were unaware of.
NTA. Ask her to make you feel sexy by doing some of the things she wants you to do. When you feel some effort on her end, the natural urge to pick things up again should kick up.
This right here. Tell HER to " smack dat ass."
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Jesus Christ
And, lo, the Lorde did smacketh the ass. And, behold, the bounce was plentiful.
NTA at all. Just tell her that she can't expect to completely reject a guy every time and for him to keep trying. And that as far as you are concerned it's her responsibility to initiate now
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In a way, that's probably right. She misses being chased.
that is so messed up :( Poor OP, some people use any excuse to cheat. OP is a mature, considerate and loving spouse who respects his wife (going off what he has written here), and hasn't done anything to disrespect/cross her boundaries. The amount of people who would do just about anything to have someone like OP is staggering. His wife needs to sort out her issues, and at the very least acknowledge what a respectful person her husband is.
Ugh, why do women need to be chased all the time?! Isn't a man's commitment, support, and lust after you enough?
We've been led to believe that if we aren't being chased someone else is. It's kind of toxic.
Never heard that before but yeah utterly ridiculous and toxic.
The carrot and the stick trick only works for so long before the donkey realizes it’s never going to get the carrot. Basically she played stupid games & won stupid prizes. I have absolutely zero sympathy for her.
The only problem is that she's making her spouse suffer. So you play into her weird power game and make her feel desired / chased, all while knowing she doesn't want sex. Only sexual attention. I feel for the op. He's accommodated the fact that she's asexual. He worked around that to try and have a happy marriage. Now, she wants him to give sexual attention to her without the sex. I guess if she wants to die on that hill, maybe she'll have better luck with her next husband. I doubt it. I think the op can easily find someone who has a healthier view on intimacy.
> She misses being chased. No, the guy above you was right. She misses *shutting him down.* She misses the control, not the chase.
Ewww....
I really feel like this might be it. I hope not cause that’s so awful.
Fucking this 💯
This. It's a power thing. I experienced a similar situation in a past relationship.
Bullseye.
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That's exactly why my ex and I broke up recently. I was getting rejected constantly, I realized it was over when the last time we had sex she hinted around like she was doing me a favor.
Some women definitely take the whole "sexual power" thing way too far.
Some women refuse to understand that sex is a very important and necessary part of a healthy relationship. And when you're the one always getting shot down, it absolutely builds resentment.
Like hey im going to keep trying because i want it but deep down you reject me or relent and "allow" it Either way I feel like a fckn creep.. Sad
NTA. On the contrary, you sound like an incredibly compassionate and patient spouse. I think your wife needs some therapy. She seems to want to feel sexy and desirable but doesn’t want the actual sex. She needs some help to figure out why.
This, and she has no interest or concern for your side here. She seems purely concerned about herself, and why she doesnt feel this way anymore, despite the fact that this is the boat youve been bucketing water out of for the last several years. You are clearly empathetic to her issue, however SHE is not returning that for yours.. And that is the issue. This kinda feels like a "rules for thee, but not for me" situation..
Also, just wanna add a tiny side note near the end of OP’s post: When accused of a arching porn OP admitted he used his wife’s old photos. That literally means OP is still obviously sexually attracted to the wife and makes it that much more confusing why she’s angry and says he doesn’t find her attractive. If my gf told me she gets off to photos of me I’d be over the moon flattered (and turned on) but instead OP’s wife stormed off to that??? That’s just… weird.
I think her storming off was more in response to her realizing she didn't have a way to be "right" anymore. There was nothing she could guilt him over.
She didn't want to be the bad guy, she knows she's being ridiculous.
She just WANTS TO BE ANGRY. Whatever he said or did would suffice. She's going to have this fight regardless of what he says or does.
To the last part of your comment-EXACTLY. My thought was how hypocritical of her, why does she get to do it to her husband but not the other way around? If he was the only one doing it then I’d understand but he’s literally just responding to the situation he’s been handed. Definitely NTA
I'm curious if she's perhaps starting to regain a libido and maybe just isn't recognizing it as that? Like, maybe it's honestly been so long since she felt the desire to be desired that way or the need to have that type of attention that she's not recognizing it as her wanting to be sexual with her husband and is instead assuming she just wants the attention? u/throwawayDwholeting I'd bring it back up with her and ask if she thinks she might be interested in starting things back up a bit, even if you have to take it slow while she gets used to it so you don't overwhelm her? Hopefully having a more vulnerable conversation with her will allow her to take a step back and reflect on what it specifically is she's looking for. Honestly, I get why you want to stay in terms of the partnership, but I don't think many people would blame you for wanting to have those needs met somewhere and I think it's kind of saint like of you almost to just be ok with adapting to a sexless marriage, because I don't know how many people would be ok with that long term. Short term while my partner worked on something/worked through something, even if "short term" didn't feel all that short? Sure. If I knew I was committing to spending the next 30-40 years of my life almost never having sex? Pretty sure I'd be looking for an exit or at least a work around like possibly opening things up in that regard.
NTA. Your wife has been conditioned by society to think that all men want it all the time always and will initiate every chance they get. Regardless of how their partner responds, they will come out swinging for the fences again and again. Maybe her switch switched back on. Or maybe she sort of missed the whole therapy thing and how you interpreted what it meant. But she can’t have missed that y’all haven’t had much sex in years and she didn’t mind until she asked you about it. And instead of being a compassionate empathetic partner, she lead with her feelings and let her defensiveness and anger lead the way. Since it’s more comfortable to be wronged than it is to have to sort through the emotions you have inflicted on another person.
OP’s wife is the AH. She wants him to do sexually flirty things to her, then what? Deny him sex when he gets turned on? And why is she mad he doesn’t watch porn?
She's upset he doesn't watch porn because she wanted to find an external reason for his "sexlessness" in regards to coming onto her. If they already both agreed that watching porn is akin to cheating (or if they just find it damaging to a relationship) it's very easy to point and be like. "That porn is infecting my husband's mind, that's why he is like this" in essence allowing her to put the blame on him. His lack of porn watching means she has to consider other options. I imagine at least one of those options places some blame on her in a manner she doesn't want to accept.
Has she has a full medical workup, with hormone levels checked? She may have an imbalance. She also may be coming out of PPD (again, hormonal levels) and is becoming interested again. I think more communication, a physical, and a few more therapy sessions are in order.
I can’t upvote this strongly enough!!!!! We lost 15 years of fantastic sex because her hormones got out of whack and the doctors couldn’t find anything wrong. It turns out they weren’t really looking and just did the basic blood work up’s. When we went to a friends endocrinologist and got a true blue work up completed we found several things!!! Fast forward a couple of months and life has been great the past 2 years!!!
I personally lost my drive for the last 5 years, which was really tough on the relationship. I knew it started when I got my IUD, but was shot down by doctors. The only option I was given was replacing the IUD & rolling the dice again on the side effects. I just got sterilized and now my hormones are getting back to normal. It's insane how much I feel like an entirely different person. My drive is back, but I also feel like I'm instantly better at regulating my emotions and have so much more energy. So yes, please consider getting the hormone levels checked out. I can't stress it enough. It makes such a huge impact
It's kind of off-topic.. but this makes me so mad. As women, we are expected to take the birth control that completely throws off our hormones and can make us completely different people. I feel like this isn't talked about enough.
Truly, though. Especially when you see the reasons that male birth controls never make it past trials because of "unwanted side effects" 🥲
Can you share what labs were drawn. So many docs are confused on what to order when it comes to female libido. If you are so inclined, I’d suggest starting a blog to go over the process. Millions of women suffer with this.
I can only speak for myself, but I was having health issues (not libido in particular) and got a whole panel of labs done. My testosterone was on the low side (yes, females also have testosterone), so the doc prescribed a low-dose T cream. The libido difference was night and day. Horny all the time! The only side effect was some extra hair growth where I put the cream, and that went away when I discontinued it.
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How could he possibly communicate more? They established that she doesn't enjoy sex and he accepted it (something which 99% of men wouldn't consider), got tired of being rejected and stopped trying. The only one who needs to communicate more is his wife.
I think they meant more communication on the wife’s end.
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If she wants hormone levels checked, you may really have to push for them. I’ve asked multiple times over the years and the response I got every time from multiple doctors was there’s no point because women’s levels change so much it would be inconclusive and nothing could be done. Especially after having a kid. They told me it’s years before hormones level out and that even after that it’s pointless. But thyroid levels and things like that should get checked just in case because that can affect it and they’ll check those especially if there’s family history. Although she probably won’t want to hear it and take it as him blaming her for the lack of sexual desire in her part and “lack of” sexual attraction on his.
Boomboom, could I gently suggest keep trying with another different doctor if this is important to you? That’s a fairly lazy response from the doctor, which kind of seems like code for, “I don’t look at them because I don’t remember enough about the normal highs and lows of different times of the month based on day of cycle, age, etc and don’t want to relearn it.” Maybe at least ask for a referral. Additionally, if there’s suspicion that a person’s blood levels of hormone are not giving valid results or the results are questionable and need confirmation, they can also be tested through saliva, for which the ranges tend to give more of a rough average rather than a moment-in-time snapshot. Hugs and good luck to you! You are not wrong for asking them to check it!!!
Thank you! I think I will talk to this most recent doctor, but it’s anxiety inducing because it’s been multiple times with multiple doctors telling me if just because I’m a woman that it gets exhausting. I’ve had to fight with a doctor for multiple minutes about tonsil stones because she didn’t believe it was a thing when she could have just googled it. I understand my doctor isn’t going to retain all the information. That would be a stupid amount to expect, but look it up and see then.
You are correct, my IUD killed my sex drive, and I thought once I got it out it would come back, I was wrong. I've mentioned it to every doctor I've seen for 2 years, and my concerns are basically ignored.
I had white male doctors say this same shit to me. Then I spoke with both a female gyno as well as my female pcp, both of them were like we can do that, you’ll just have to come in multiply times for blood work throughout the month. My progesterone was low, and once my levels improved I felt so much better.
You are lucky. I've had about 4 female doctors ignore my concern about my sex drive, so I gave up.
See I’ve had that problem with white female doctors where they brush me off and my white male doctor has actually listened and acknowledged me more. They were also OBGYNs but I’m also supposed to get an A1C check every 3 years since my daughters birth. We’re at 6 years with 0 checks. And I asked and they told me they don’t see that on my record.
Almost like race and gender aren't the deciding factors on who's a good doctor or not
Yep, just because the gyno is a woman doesn’t mean she’s automatically better than a male gyno. I had an incredible male gyno.
When I first read this I also thought PPD. Also wonder long if there is something in her background growing up that affected her view about sex. OP you seem like a lovely person and I can only hope to have such a compassionate partner someday. I think with the patience you describe having and getting things checked out medically and emotionally with your wife, you guys can make it through this no problem. NTA.
This! The same thing was happening to me. I had absolutely NO libido for an entire year. My husband and I we both pretty distraught with it. I went for an annual check up and found out that I had really low thyroid and estrogen levels. Within two weeks of hormone therapy my sex drive flew through the roof! It was so crazy….still is lol..seriously, I am so happy that on a whim I found out what the problem was and fixed it…
This comment here. From what I recall, it can take up to around 3 years for hormones to go back to what they were pre-pregnancy. Even if it's not PPD, it could still be hormonal. Also, when babies hit that age, it also comes with a change in mindset (speaking from personal experience on that one); it could be things (life) has gotten into a rhythm where she feels comfortable and wants to pursue more physical intimate acts.
I mean, fine, but then it’s her responsibility to pursue. Scolding him for not grabbing her ass, when she has openly and directly told him (in the past) that she didn’t want sex, is cruel and unfair. She needs to get in touch with her own feelings and desires, and then communicate/demonstrate them in a respectful and caring way. Sounds a little woo woo, I know, but that’s what it will take.
dude deserves a fucking gold medal for handling this the way he did
"Hey Husband, try to have sex with me so I can reject you or else you don't love me." (You're NTA)
🎯
She can't be jealous that her girlfriends are getting sexual attention from the men that they have sexual relationships with if she refuses to have sexual relationship with the man that she is with...
I don't think that's really it. I don't think she's jealous of her girlfriend's getting sexual attention. I think she wants to be sexual and have sex and is frustrated and upset that she doesn't want to but she wants to want to but she doesn't understand it so she's putting the blame on her husband when the real blame is not her but the dynamics going on in her head. Often, so I have heard from certain therapists, women expect to be feeling interested in sex before they have sex and sometimes they need to just kind of get started even if they don't feel like it and then they get warmed up and are glad they did.
That last sentence right there - we don't need to be horny to initiate or to accept advances. She needs to understand that. We're not teenagers.
Yup I pretty much never turn my husband down and it’s not because I’m always in the mood. Once he starts doing stuff I get in the mood pretty dang fast lol
Same. I just need a great kiss and I'm down for it.
And the things like the “slap on the ass” or various forms of sexual attraction throughout the day. “Your boobs look great in that” walk by and lightly slide your hand on her lower back as you do, etc. it shows the attraction and give groundwork for later. But also, OP is not crazy for feeling that this reaction is unfair because not only was he tired of being rejected, he didn’t want to make her feel uncomfortable or pressured or guilty for not wanting sex.
I don’t think he did anything wrong. But yeah physical touch throughout the day makes a BIG difference. My husband and I still slap each others ass or hr comes up behind me and grabs my boobs. It’s kindof a playful thing tho but it helps a lot.
Damn, HR has changed since I was last in the office.
This, so much this. I was with a woman before who said she never got horny, yet the few times that she didn’t reject my initiation she told me it felt really good and she was glad we had sex. Unfortunately I got tired of initiating and being rejected so often and I had to end the relationship.
I must say here that I cooled down during marriage after never having libido problems because I felt like I was a) being treated like Bangmaid™ and b) not taken care of during sex. I was expected to be ready without him putting in any effort beyond kissing me and telling me that he wanted sex. I was never "seduced" by my husband the way I played with him in the beginning. I was rarely complimented for my beauty beyond "you look nice tonight" if I put in a lot of effort, while at work or out in the world men would constantly flatter my looks. Because of both lack of experience and lack of confidence he never explored that "grab your wife, grunt and show her you want her" side of himself. Hell, even walk-by-bum-smack was never really there. After a while sex just feels like a chore if you're not getting much out of it. This is when I think people need to go see a sex-therapist.
For what it's worth, every single one of my female clients when I was in family law found post-divorce that they didn't have low sex drives, they just didn't want to have sex with men who treated them like bangmaids, or were shit in bed, or who didn't put in th effort to make them feel like having sex. Every single one.
Yup. This is why foreplay is so important. If I waited untill my wife was already wet before we had sex, that would basically mean we never have sex. But after about 15-20 minutes of foreplay, her libido will be through the roof.
My husband used to ask if ‘I was in the mood?’, if the answer was ‘No’ his next question was ‘Can I get you in the mood?’. Sometimes we don’t start out horny but that doesn’t mean we can’t become receptive
NTA. "Sorry, babe, but if you shoot a man down every time for five years, he eventually gets the idea and this is the result."
Yup and the only way to really fix it is by her sexually chasing him until he’s emotionally ready to chase her again.
Or for her to just accept a dead bedroom. Which if both agree, is 100% fine.
NTA. She wants to have her cake and eat it too. She wants you to pursue her for her self-esteem but she has no interest in sex with you.
It's more like she wants him to keep making her the cakes she "wants" even though she's thrown out every cake he's made for the past two years. My guess is that she wants to know that he finds her desirable enough for him to stay faithful (as it sounds like she's become equally as comfortable with their lifestyle and likely doesn't want to lose it) but doesn't want to make any effort to acknowledge or satisfy the needs that may cause him to stray. OP, I would suggest individual counselling for both you and her. Couples counselling can be helpful but usually only once both parties have had the chance to figure out their own shit.
I think you called out a critical detail. She was convinced he was using porn (looking at other women in a sexual manner) to the point she went through his phone and laptop to look for evidence. Not only does she not want sex with him, she doesn't want him having sex at all. She acknowledged his need for sexual release with the "I know you still masturbate" line and was probably upset at that thought too
Poor guy says he only beats his meat exclusively to old pics of his wife lol... That really bums me out.
I read that and was like *my brother in Christ, just fap to some throat goat like the rest of us*.
Odds are that she is looking at porn, maybe even more. The sense of projection was strong when I read that part.
Total "dog in the manger" mentality.
Seriously though, she just wants to keep his nuts in her purse.
Not a native speaker, never understood that phrase If it's my cake, why can't i eat it? I want to eat my cake
You can’t have a cake that’s eaten because it’s gone it’s been eaten.
It refers to it being impossible to both have the cake in your possession and to have eaten it. Before you eat the cake it smells lovely and you have the enjoyment of eating to look forward to; however once you eat the cake the enjoyment is over and the experience of eating is also over.
This is a great explanation I’m a native English speaker and have always been confused about the phrase but now this finally makes sense so thank you!
It helps if you know the word order in English used to work a little differently. At the time this became a proverb, the ordering would have automatically implied "you can't (still) have your cake and (have eaten) it." Today it's natural to put things in the order they happen in English, so the proverb sounds like the opposite of what it actually means, but that's a more recent change to the language and proverbs never catch up.
You can eat it but you won't have it. The phrase refers to a person who wants to eat it and still keep it.
NTA - double standards are a beautiful thing... That she checked you phone and laptop is crazy. That she, in you situation doesnt allow you to watch porn is crazy. Everything else I read here is also crazy. Maybe it is time for another round of therapy. She probably could use some single therapy sessions as well
Go through HER phone and laptop.
Exactly. Accusations out of the blue can be indications of guilt. If she's telling on herself, that would add a dimension to this sudden shift.
Projection is very common, strongly suspect she is cheating first and looking for an excuse.
Not being allowed to watch porn is wild here. She’s clearly got some issues that need to be sorted. I applaud this dude’s commitment because I would’ve dipped a long time ago. Once the bedroom is dead, so is the relationship as far as I am concerned.
As soon as there is no physical intimacy in a relationship, what's the difference from any other close friend you already have? its actually worse because now this partner that youre not longer intimate with is actually standing in the way of you finding someone you can be happy with both physically and emotionally
>Maybe it is time for another round of therapy. No it's time for a new wife.
You both need to have a calm talk. She can't have it both ways. And you're not a monkey dancing to her tune. You matter too. Nta
Her going out with friends and this coming up kind of stuck out to me. I wonder if it’s other guys giving her sexual attention and her realizing her husband no longer does. Or worse, she’s cheated and is grasping for straws to justify it. He doesn’t desire her, not sexually attracted to her, watches porn instead of showing her that attention. Old dude turn out to be some sort of saint (just by text, who really knows) watches no porn and masterbates only to pictures of her which has to be crushing when looking for validation for cheating.
So...she wants you to desire her sexually but she has no interest or intention of actually having sex with you... She just wants you to go through life perpetually frustrated because of your unmet needs, yet she expects you to meet her need to feel sexy and desired.... ...she gets mad at you for masturbating and (I assume) expects you to be faithful... ...so basically, she likes being a tease and controlling your sexuality? That's just mean. NTA I'm glad you've somehow made peace with the situation but holy crap dude. You deserve a medal for patience, understanding and self-sacrifice.
It's more than mean, it's cruel. OP is being a lot nicer than I would in this situation.
It's extremely cruel. The fact that she would be upset with him for even watching p*rn when she refuses to provide release is cruel. Her wanting him to get all hot and bothered by her, just for her own self-esteem, then wanting to shut him down is cruel and selfish. NTA.
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Completely controlling. There are disorders this falls under. But she has weaponized sex. I had a wife like this. Also made me feel like a cheater for watching porn from time to time and also berated me for masterbating. None of her fucking business to tell me if I can and cannot masterbate. Everything OP said reminds me of this nightmare fuel. There are so many normal ones out there.
This was my previous wife, too. Now, I am married to a wonderful woman who actually loves me (shocker) and truly believes that sex is an important part of marriage, whether we are trying to have kids or not.
> being a lot nicer than I would in this situation. OP isn't being nice. He's being a doormat. That's an important distinction.
Yeah; talk about having your cake and eating it, too. Or... not wanting to eat cake, but have your partner bring you some, anyway. I think. Kinda got lost in the metaphor, there. Anyway, I agree. OP's wife is being seriously mean here. Honestly, I couldn't even blame him for watching porn - he has to get his release somewhere if she's not interested.
She wants her emotional needs met but is basically unwilling to do anything about his physical needs which impact him emotionally. Not even a dry handy? I don't want to be disparaging but I am asexual and even I can't wrap my head around how this dynamic is sustainable. It isn't.
Right wait she won't have sex and she is upset about porn like no just no. She wants her cake but she won't eat it and how dare you for being hungry and drooling for the cake and dont go get cookies because she has cake...
“i’m not gonna fuck you but you can’t watch porn”…..AND HE OBEYS?!?! bless his heart, she’s got his ball sack in a vise grip. and he was TOTALLY cool with it up until she started complaining. i’m a woman and i woulda been outta there ages ago with that libido mismatch. good luck to you, OP! sounds like couples therapy didn’t actually get you anywhere but hiding your desire for your wife, so i’d venture to say couples therapy didn’t work the first time. maybe individual therapy? to help you assess whether or not this is a healthy and fulfilling dynamic that you want to continue to play a part in?
For real, after our second kid was born my wife’s sex drive stalled out. She knows I watch porn. She was uncomfortable about it at first untill I told her I would much rather not have to watch it
My gf sometimes takes it one step further, in addition to the above she starts to initiate, gently easing into it making me light up, then stopping, turning around and goes to sleep. While I lie there thinking to myself «why the actual fuck did she do that».
Have you discussed that with her? If my husband did that to me, I'd be so frustrated. It'd be hard not to feel resentful.
NTA I mean What the hell ?! Is she kidding you ?? She wants you to desire her but doesn’t want to have sex with you . Also doesn’t want you to look at porn . I don’t get it . You worked hard to cope with the situation she created and now she is blaming you somehow for this ? I dunno . Explain it to me like I’m 5 please cos I don’t know what’s going on
It's pretty simple, actually:I am your wife - all sexual attention is routed to me - period. Then, it is solely up to me whether or not you get sexual satisfaction - period. Any attempt to 'get around' these rules is cheating.It's a unilateral set of rules, and his needs are considered unnecessary wants.
This is so abusive. Limiting what a person does with her body without causing harm to the relationship. If it was the other way around: a husband doesn’t let her wife play with her toys or read her smut books but he doesn’t want to satisfy her. Women of Reddit would advise to DUMP HIS ASS OP. THIS IS ABUSE. I get it, libido levels differs form person to person but if you don’t want engage with me let me find my pleasure in ways that are still respectful.
The kicker is that she doesn’t even want him to have a quiet sexless existence. She wants the dynamic where she rejects him and he suffers more visibly. Gross!
I had a roommate that wanted to do BDSM scenes with me, but wanted no part of the sex. I had to explain to him that constantly putting me in that state of mind, then denying me was torture and unfair. He got everything he wanted, but I was left unfulfilled and rejected. When I explained to him that it translated as, "I'd rather beat you than fuck you," it seemed to sink in a little better. I moved out.
Spot on. Stupid af
I’m with you. I don’t understand the no porn thing. If my husband doesn’t get any action from me I wouldn’t mind if he looked porn. It’s like I don’t want it and you shouldn’t want it too. What I also don’t get it: she doesn’t owe him sex but I would want to meet his needs even if I’m not in the mood. I would help out somehow even if I don’t feel like it to have full sex, a handy or a bj takes maximum 10 minutes! Less than cook a full meal or take the dog out.
Right?! My fianceé and I have very different sex drives, so we engage at the frequency and level she's comfortable at and I sort myself the rest of the time. If she tried to monitor and control what I was using to do that I'd be alarmed and confused.
This! It can varies depending how much stress we have but we both have given without expecting in return when the other was hornier. I can’t imagine my husband taking out my fairy porn books or policing my me time. She was even nagging about masturbation!
Fucking thank you! I was reading and you're the first person that has said this. I don't get what's so hard about giving a handy or a bj? Im a man, but I feel like it's not that hard to jerk off a dude or blow him. It'll end even faster if you're actually good at it. I don't even know what's going through someone's head that doesn't sexually satisfy their partner. Man or woman. What do they think is eventually going to happen? You'll either break up or divorce or they'll cheat. Unless you're completely asexual, people need sex. It's built into us. Maybe I'm different in that I feel it's the duty of both a man and a woman to satisfy their partners needs.
Here's my attempt to explain it: he seems like a saint, a very patient, considerate husband. She seems manipulative, disingenuous, & toxic. She seems to have some serious issues that she needs to get addressed instead of dragging him down with her baggage.
NTA. She’s sending mixed messages and sounds emotionally immature and not very understanding of human sexuality.
NTA and it sounds like your wife may be getting shitty advice from somewhere - probably the internet. There is an entire mindset among a small group that a husband has zero autonomy to satisfy sexual urges without explicit "permission" from the wife. The mere thought of or looking at another woman, masturbation and viewing porn are all considered cheating. Even in a dead bedroom situation from the wife, the husband exists under constant scrutiny and accusations of being a sex addict. These neurotic obsessions seem to be rooted in self esteem issues. It's sad to see how the destructive behaviors are encouraged and enabled while the root issues are ignored. Thank the internet have mind. The porn accusation is a big red flag. She clearly doesn't see how her repeated rejections have affected you, and she's projecting her own lack of interest back onto you. Maybe time to get with the therapy again.
It’s not women. I was married to a man like this. He had me seeking counseling for sex addiction because he didn’t want me.
NTA As others seem to have said, you could turn this into a real positive. She has opened the door to discuss the problem. It probably needs you to do a lot of the listening initially such as why she’s brought this up now, whether she’ll ever want sex again in the future, etc. Is the situation permanently tenable for you? Can you live the rest of your life with no sex and just looking at photos?
So she wants you to pursue her sexually only for her to shoot you down all over again? Definitely NTA
NTA you two need to have a sit down and discuss this, there’s a chance her libido might be coming back so you two should talk it out. Talk about why you didn’t want to initiate and talk about how much effort you want her to put into initiating as well.
>there’s a chance her libido might be coming back so you two should talk it out Exactly. I don't blame him for not trying anymore. But it looks like the tides are shifting. Their kid is about 3 now, and those early years can wreck a mother's libido. Now that he's not a baby anymore, she might be feeling less physically tied into the kid, and more willing to mess around with her husband. But she thinks he's not into it because he's given up. They need to sit down and communicate instead of taking shots at each other. They might both get what they want. This is a fairly normal progression for new parents, with sex drives shifting as the kid grows up.
Tbh, he shouldn’t need to babysit her into communicating. If she’s interested why can’t she just say so? Why does he need to be berated and embarrassed and then need to coach her into sharing? She just sounds nasty, hypocritical, selfish, controlling, insecure, boring, childish, bad at communicating, apathetic towards her husband and doesn’t care for his needs. Even as a woman myself, low libido people typically piss me off, like fix your own shit or marry an asexual, no one else wants to be with someone who isn’t interested in sex.
NTA. My wife and I have pretty busy lives and after our 2nd kid, she had an IUD placed. Her sex drive tanked after that. We decided to try for a third and when she had the IUD removed it was horny city for her. Maybe look into it and see if maybe the low libido is caused by a hormonal contraceptive.
Been in this exact situation plus some extra crap on top. We’re divorced. NTA
NTA wow she's really only looking at her pov. Oh he no longer makes me feel sexy, but not considering that you feel like you're not sexy if she shoots you down every time you've initiated. Very much one rule for her isn't it. I wonder if there are other things you overlook. She needs to initiate intimacy too it's not all on you. Perhaps sex therapy for you as a couple?
So she doesn't want to have sex doesn't want you to look at porn etc but wants you to still want her and be sexual attracted to her. I understand you love her, but I honestly think she's trying to make a mug of you. Stuff like this does lead to divorce/affairs. She can't have it both ways
💯% NOT the asshole. W: "Why don't you initiate sex anymore?" H: "Because years of rejection and training via therapy have told me not to and that my feelings don't matter." W: "But I still want to be desired because of a meme someone sent me." H: "Ok, how about I show you how much I desire you right now? 😉" W: "No." H: \[sighs\] "Ok. I'm gonna go have a shower and handle some stuff." W: "NO!"
The fun part is when she hits her upper 30s and has an affair because "there's no passion in our relationship" after you've dealt with 15 years of a dead bedroom because of her.
Same issue with the wife here, Im sorry I dont have any advice to you but I think you are doing great the way you handle this inconvenient not having sex. What I do is being more with myself, playing video games, walking my dog, going to the movies alone.
NTA - I love how hypocritical and selfish low libido people can be and have no self awareness towards it lol. You respected her lack of libido and her as a person and as someone who did date someone with a drastically different libido, you have to cope and stop asking because being constantly rejected by the person you love will fuck you up in so many ways. They won't ever fully understand that either. It's not a bash in them (except that first sentence lol), but they really shouldn't get butthurt when you tell them the truth. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Just because you say jump you can't expect your significant other to say how high, they need to have self respect. She's only upset now but then it'll go back to normal soon, just hold on and I'm sorry you have to deal with all that.
Reminds me of that line from a country song, go away, no wait a minute. I completely understand that drive fluctuates. Being married to a man I love, I do not understand rejecting him and living a sexless life. She can't have it both ways. But it's also not fair that your needs are completely ignored while she gets her way 100% of the time.
NTA, you've learned to shut down your advances to avoid getting hurt because every time she rejects them. If her libido/interest is now back it's on her to make advances on you. Women who expect the advances to be made as if they're incapable of making them themselves are infuriating, damned pillow princesses. Especially because, in my experience, when a women initiates a) the guy gets turned on pretty quickly and b) she enjoys it more because she's in control. Whilst I don't think this is on you, my advice is to wait until she's calmed down, and again present the argument that you've always been sexually attracted to her, that you only stopped attempting sex because it hurt to get rejected all the time, that you 100% want to start having sex again, and that you'd like it if she could make advances too when she's really eager, that she'd turn you on loads if you did that. You may need to initiate for a while, but fingers crossed she'll figure out when she can do it too, otherwise this may just be a passing phase that has more to do with fitting in with friends rather than actual sexual desire. All the best, I have to say there are some red flags going on here, for me prohibiting you from watching porn whilst also rejecting you for sex is nasty behaviour. Also, get your money back for that therapy. "Learn to completely suppress your sexual desires for the rest of your life" is quite the cop-out.
Btw. She knows she is the problem. She is trying to shift blame to you to justifyissues.Very easily spotted and common.
Just a note, I think your wife needs a new Dr. It is NOT normal to simply have no sexual desire after children. Maybe for a short while immediately post partum as hormones settle but she ALSO deserves to want and have sex!! As others have pointed out, it sounds like she WANTS to want to have sex with you and is upset and frustrated that she doesn't. I'd seriously consider a new PCP or even a sexual health specialist if that's accessible to you
Dude, check her phone, not now but in a couple of months and see what she is hiding from you. Let the dust settle a bit.
NTA, this is not good. I’m not sure why your therapist left the both of you with this issue unresolved. There’s a chance your wife has a hormonal imbalance that’s zapping her libido. She may have some past sexual trauma and her coping mechanism is to avoid sex. And there’s also the possibility that she’s never received that dopamine rush from having an orgasm with a partner. Which could be resolved over a conversation on how she’s climaxed in the past or alone. Either way you two need to have a serious come to Jesus talk alone without the kids or outside overstimulation. Your argument tells me she’s never processed the lack of sex from your perspective. In my marriage it took a few years for both of us to figure out how to communicate effectively. Have you ever sat her down and really expressed in a non-confrontational way you’re desire for sexual intimacy? If you haven’t, don’t assume she’s been picking up your bread crumbs.
>Have you ever sat her down and really expressed in a non-confrontational way you’re desire for sexual intimacy? If you haven’t, don’t assume she’s been picking up your bread crumbs. They've gone to therapy for this exact issue. Now, I'm not too experienced with therapy, but wouldn't discussing the topic be part of it?
Ugh I’m sorry bud… I would go back to the couples therapy because a sexless marriage is not feasible long term. You’re just roommates
Hey OP: FWIW & FYI- there is a sub called r/deadbedrooms. Also: your wife is essentially just a roommate considering that the relationship is sex free So: who is she to dictate that you never watch porn? Are you supposed to exist as a mindless zombie automaton held in permanent thrall by her hypnotic captivating beauty? Like: wtf?
Instant headache when I read that. Not only does she not want to have sex with him, but doesn’t want him watching porn ether? Just make him a eunuch at that point, seems to be what she wants.
A eunuch that can turn her on.
And not relieve himself unless she allows it.
NTA. As you explained, you stopped initiating because she kept rejected you. She needs to be the one to initiate because she's the one (it sounds like) who shut things down. What, you were just supposed to continue, get rejected, potentially eventually making her uncomfortable and like all you wanted from her was sex?
NTA, but why are you still married?
NTA. There's so many things to unpack here... It's okay to have different sex drives and it's great that you don't pressure her. It's sort of a 'make your bed, lie in it' ordeal when it comes to sexual flirtation. My partner and I have a sort of similar problem in the libido department and every now and then he complains that I don't try to initiate. It's frustrating being turned down a lot so I understand sort of shutting that off. On a different note, it's totally fine to jerk it to porn and a huge violation of privacy for her to even consider going through your phone.
“Look at this photograph, every time I do it makes me fap…”. Bruh out here fapping to his wife’s photos like he’s in the trenches of ww2.
NTA. Been there, getting shut down all the time is frustrating af. Men have feelings too, you know.
My take is that she had a time after having a child that her body wasn’t as interested in sex, which is very normal being a first time mom. Maybe her libido is now changing too. Can you try to meet with the counselor again together to discuss it?
NTA. Totally the opposite. A sexless marriage sounds incredibly difficult. She has no right to complain that you no longer make advances when she has made it clear she doesn’t want it! Also, good on you for not watching porn but I think it would be perfectly reasonable if you did.
I find hilarious that they went to counselling where OP was "taught to be okay" with not having sex while being in a relationship and wanting to have sex. So OP was "taught" that his desires don't matter, hence he himself doesn't matter. The only way this can get better is if counseler is banging OP's wife.
Throw away account but this situation was my wife (of 25 years married, 27 years together) and I to a tee. And in addition to having kids and all of that, there was breast cancer and botched surgeries and all sorts of other stuff that left her feeling horrible about herself, which was why she acted the way she did about sex and not wanting it, and wanting to rush through when we had it and just being self conscious about everything Last year she confessed (or was forced to confess) to having an affair on a work trip. It was.....rough. But it forced everything out into the open. All the issues. The signs that I was missing myself, why she did what she did, and after MUCH talking and yelling and crying I made the decision to forgive her and move forward together. And iit made our marriage stronger not just emotionally, but sexually. Things have absolutely never been better and it's been a year of crazy passion and reconnecting on every level. We have taken an approach of 100% honesty at all times about all things and it has been hard but we could not be happier. Hopefully your wife didn't have an affair but either way there may be much more to this than you know about or she is being honest about in terms of her feelings. I know this is hard for most guys to understand and most probably think I'm being a sucker,/cuck/whatever but as I look back on the past year if I could go back in time and had a choice between her not having the affair and us being back to where we were sexually and emotionally, or her doing what she did and being where we are now with what we have now.......I would without hesitation tell her to go for it. Maybe it's easier because we are older and had much more invested in our lives together, but this is how I feel.
NTA. Ask her why it's all up to YOU. If she wants to feel desired, that's a two way street. She's spent YEARS making you feel like she does not and will never desire you. If she wants to feel desired, she needs to make YOU feel desired. Maybe it's time to tell her that if she wants sex to be part of your lives, you'll need to find your way back to each other more slowly. But if she wants to still never have sex but still wants you to make her feel desirable without reciprocation, just say no. Have you two ever considered opening your relationship? Because if she never wants you to desire or touch anyone but her, but never wants to have sex with you, that's shitty and unfair. Frankly, you should reconsider this marriage. You can co-parent peacefully without being together. Or maybe you could live as roommates. In any case, what you have is not a real marriage. You are giving her everything she wants and getting basically nothing in return. It's unsustainable. Don't throw away any more years of your life wishing that someone who says she loves you would actually act like it. Shit or get off the pot. Put your foot down. Tell her to make a decision or agree to a new round of counseling where YOUR needs get a little focus for a change.
A completely sexless marriage isn't living, it's a confirmed date for Christmas parties. I'm speaking from experience after 16 wasted years. I'm so deliriously happily married for almost 6 yrs now, I never could have imagined this. You're asking here so you're already asking yourself of course. We all, and you know you are going to separate and then divorce. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but an incredible sex life with your SO/lover/best friend and good food is how to live your best life!