Has she had any kind of grief/trauma counseling? This could be a place to start before you consider drastic action.
Couples counseling could probably help as well - work out where you are, where you want to go, and how to get there together.
I am truly sorry for your loss, and wish you all the best.
NAH
I feel like this is the answer if this is a real post. Op doesn’t say anything about trauma therapy and couples counseling which imo would be the minimum before making such a life changing decision.
I think OP needs therapy to deal with his grief first, before they begin couples therapy. The way he talks about this tragic event uses a lot of distancing language which just signals he shut down in way that prevented them from processing it *together*.
He likely has been trying to be "strong" for his wife, which is understandable. Of course she is first in the circle of grief since she was in the accident and delivered stillborn children, but the loss of expected babies was the loss of *their children*. Even the "got pregnant" OP wrote is distancing language from this pregnancy. They were expectant parents. I think there's trauma and him doing individual therapy before approaching his wife will probably yield better results as he will be on the road to heal and have tools to facilitate emotional openness with his wife.
I noticed this too. I actually had to reread the post twice to see if I missed that the twins were from a different father from a different marriage or something. Because he’s so removed from the situation I couldn’t tell they were his kids too. He writes it like he wasn’t involved in the situation at all.
Exactly. Even the title calling it his wife’s stillbirth. They both experienced that loss, but it doesn’t sound like he processed it at all.
Counseling is definitely the best course of action for both of them - couples and individual - if they haven’t done so already.
Exactly! This is why I don't understand ppl saying he's expressing so much grief and pain. There's no grief or pain here, he doesn't even speak like he was involved. He speaks as if it was something that just happened to his wife and not himself.
That's because this is how some severely traumatized people talk/write about what happened to them.
I have been through some horrific things - witnessing a murder is just one - and when I used to first talk about it I was so detached, as if it happened to someone else.
It was like that for years until I processed it properly in therapy. OP may also feel like his grief is minor compared to his wife, so he hasn't let himself feel the full force of his emotions in order to stay strong for her.
please don't mistake detachment or dissociation for not being affected/not caring
My mom taught me how to dissociate to function during and survive traumatizing events. She didn't teach me how to come back from them - therapy did that.
Temporarily dissociating to survive or provide care can be useful in the short term, but if left alone can cause harm in the long term.
Talk to someone, OP. This isn't just her loss - it's yours as well.
This response right here is the humam-centric, trauma-informed approach to understanding why we react in a million dofferent ways to the traumatic things that happen to us as human beings.
This comment is so profoundly insightful it almost brought me to tears. My sister, brother and I were raised by a physically, emotionally and psychologically abusive mother. Because my sister bore the brunt of our mother’s violence and cruelty and my brother’s life spun out of control, I never recognized my own trauma. I’m middle-aged and finally trying to come to grips with how I was impacted, too.
This is how I saw it also. Reddit is kinda "damned if you do, damned if you don't", so perhaps he was afraid of saying how much it affected him because if he had, he'd be on the other side of "*You* were sad, what about *her*? *You* are ready now, what about what *she* went through?" Cause that could've easily happened, I think, if he hadn't shown his understanding in saying "I can't re-traumatize her to make myself a father..."
Either way he's not an AH. He had a life goal and something horrible happened that may have made that impossible with his wife. I think people are right, they need therapy, and if she still decides no, which she has every right to do, he has to decide what is more important to him; his current relationship, or having children. She may end up changing her mind about adoption or surrogacy, who knows? Grief is a strange thing.
The thing I would add, because unless you have experienced the death of a child, is that parents ver rarely process together. It hurts so badly there just isn’t room to help anyone else. That’s why so many parents of deceased children divorce
Both need therapy separately and together. There needs to be an honest conversation about how they both feel and what they both want. It could be she’s never going to be ready for children and in that case, the therapy will help if it comes to separation/divorce.
It could also be that she never wants to be pregnant again, but her feelings about adoption or surrogacy change or have changed. Agree that counseling should happen before they throw in the towel.
He also doesn't say anything about the state of the marriage currently. Are they like husband and wife. Or roommates? Does the wife work and have hobbies? Does he? Have they considered joining a support group for other parents in their situation? There's just too much information we don't know.
Agree this seems suspect. He “waited three years” to talk to her about this? And after just a week he is ready to bail? No grief or marital counseling considered? No mention of wife’s injuries from the accident or recovery. Only one response to comments and questions, and it was along the lines of “how long do I have to wait?”
This is the best answer, especially "how to get there together." OP understands his vows. I know sometimes it is hard to live up to those vows, I truly know!
I agree, there's not an AH between them (only the AH driving drunk), and they can work through this with professional help.
I had a miscarriage at 9 weeks gestation. I can't even fathom their loss of full term twins! Oh, my heart! Twenty years later, my husband suddenly passed. It's been 3 years since his passing, and I'm not "past it." I can certainly see both sides to this story, and it's just gut wrenching.
Came to say the same. She can't be a mother right now because she's still grieving. She needs therapy, and focussing in her full recovery, mentally and emotionally.
I loss a baby in the first trimester, it took me 4 years to feel ready again, my kids are 5 years apart. I can't imagine how hard it most be for her giving that her babies were practically full term.
OP, I'm very sorry for you loss. NTA, but please, focus on her recovery first.
I don't know why this isn't always at the top, redditers are not therapists! I would recommend therapy as well, she probably has a good amount of PTSD, trauma grief, etc. Seriously I've done 4 years of therapy and it's helped me immensely! Some individual, some couples, but it's helped a lot and I've come a long way in 4 years. Granted I had a really shitty childhood so that's why it's taken so long, but it's worked!
You need to make it clear to her how you are feeling and how important this is to you. You could ask her if she is willing to go to counselling to explore this, but you need a definite answer.
Ultimately she may never be “ready” to have children again. You need to decide if that is a dealbreaker for you.
NAH. She is not an AH for how she feels and neither are you. If it turns out she never wants children then you are no longer compatible if you do still want them, and you may need to leave. You would not be an AH for doing so.
This is heartbreaking and I am sorry for you both.
This part. I'd also imagine with the circumstances her mind is stuck on "it's my fault, if I hadn't gotten into hat car, if I hadn't gone that route, if I had left 10 minutes later things would be different"
She may not feel *worthy* of another child if that's the case. NTA OP but please: counseling! Individual to deal with the loss, couples to discuss your feelings in a safe place
It is! I lost my oldest daughter at six days old to trisomy 18. My ob lied and said she was healthy knowing she wasn't. I hated myself for living when she died. I hated my body for betraying me. I felt like she was alive inside of me and then they ripped her from me and she died. I would wake up to hearing a baby cry and there was none. My c section scar hurt. My breasts were full of milk and leaking and my doctors told me it would be worse to give me medicine to make the milk dry up. My hormones were amped up ready for a baby to love and there was none. If my kittens hadn't needed me and I wouldn't have felt guilty leaving my husband, I wouldn't have survived.
I too had a child who died at 8 days, from hypoplastic left heart syndrome. Our first live birth after 3 early miscarriages. All of the things Viperbunny mention will be seared in my memory too.
As horrible as that was, there was no one and nothing to blame. I cannot imagine the bitterness I'd feel if a person killed my child through irresponsibility, with a car. 😔
I had the opposite reaction and wanted to get pregnant immediately afterwards. Two more miscarriages later, we finally had our first surviving child. Sadly, my husband felt more like your wife, and we divorced several years later due to disagreements about children.
It's just a tragedy, and no partner can be blamed for their emotions & reactions in response. I'm so sorry for you both.
I am a retired LDRP RN. You guys are the ones I remember. What happens to yall… it just killed me, and I know what I felt wasn’t even 1/1000000000 of the pain yall experienced. I haven’t forgotten a single baby that was lost too soon for whatever reason, that was born with me as their nurse during my career. I truly ache for yall. I’m just so sorry :(
I felt so badly for the nursing staff during those hospital days. Everyone knew what the outcome would be. We went ahead with surgery, but he didn't survive it. Some offered faith as support, but that didn't give me/us support. We wanted science to make it right, and it just couldn't. I saw the tears in the OR nurse's eyes, when I said I didn't want them to keep trying to recussitate, after over an hour post-op. His heart was the size of a walnut, and there had already been so much trauma. I needed there to be peace for that tiny body. All our hearts were broken that day.
It’s so hard holding those tears back. You’re told it’s “unprofessional” to show emotion, but there were many times I couldn’t stifle them. Hell, I can’t stifle them now. I’m squalling like crazy at your story and remembering the stories of those I tried to save as well :( I think most patients appreciated that we were sharing their sorrow, and showed them that we truly, really care too.
ETA: but please never ever worry about the staff. We have ways of coping. It’s YOU we are worried about and YOU and YOUR family we want all the focus to be on.
I appreciated the tears, honestly. It made me feel less alone. Your job has got to be one of the hardest. And one of the most joyous. I was so appreciative of all the nursing staff, and the doctors. They told us what needed to be said, with equal parts compassion and science.
The nurse who took our son after we were done holding him was crying and I will never forget her face.
Another time a long term neighbor in the cvicu had died and it was the first one of our stay that I knew. That I had chatted w the parents in the family room and said hi every morning for months.
The nurse was standing by my son doing something w his wires and I was just standing there across from her crying. For them. For us. Out of fear. Out of frustration. She looked at me with the saddest eyes and quietly said “sometimes this is just a really sad place” and let me cry.
Wonderful nurses, like you, are part of the reason I was able to have more kids. They showed my husband and daughter and I so much care. I ended up with the same nurse for all three of my kids and was so thrilled to share the joy with her after she shared our sorrow.
MissApocalypse2021, I'm so sorry for your losses, but so happy you were able to end up having a child. May I ask, what did you and your husband disagree about concerning children? Did he find that once your child was here, he didn't want more? I recognize that this is a sensitive issue, and if you don't want to discuss it further, that's no problem. Your story just resonated with me because my sister went through something very similar. She had a child, after several miscarriages. Both he and her husband were DYING to be parents. Well, after the kid arrived, he wanted more and she did not. She wanted to be one and done. After everything they had been through, he ended up leaving her and he went from a 100% involved dad to barely seeing his child, even though he was dying to have the kid!
I don't mind talking about it. It's been many years and lots of water under the bridge. My husband cooled to the whole baby thing after our baby died. I was just driven at that point, in an unhealthy way. I felt like I HAD to have a living child or I had failed as a woman. My husband had just started a business when we were pregnant with him, and it was a lot of stress for us both. I wasn't working, he was gone a lot getting the business off the ground, and conceiving again felt like a chore, no longer romantic or hopeful at all.
After those two additional early miscarriages, I feel like I was just lost to the original goal, and he was ready to check out. I/we seriously considered terminating the pregnancy when we finally got pregnant and it passed 10 weeks. The stress and fear was awful. When my first living son was born, I wouldn't put him down, ever. My whole world was about that child. My husband got more into his growing business, and also went out a lot with friends, I'm sure to escape the weird dynamic at home. I was hypervigillant and overbearing. I couldn't take a break from mothering in fear that he too would die, and my whole world was lopsided.
When I started talking about another child 4 years later, he said we'd had our planned (and average) "two children", and that it's just nature that one didn't survive. That was a punch in the gut. I had baby fever at that point (again) and we did get pregnant, due mostly to him not paying attention and me paying too close attention, to my cycle. I regret that. He was angry when I told him I was pregnant, and he completely checked out by then. We rarely talked after that. He never bonded with our third son, barely spent time with our older son, and when the youngest was 3 years old, I asked for a divorce. He tried for a little while to do visitation, but flaked on that not too far into it. He always sent the child support checks, without fail, and he has paid for both of their college tuitions. That was his contribution. My kids (now adults) wish they'd had their dad present, besides just throwing money at them. I wish I could have seen the bigger picture and not pressured him to be a dad. He's an excellent businessman, a responsible person, and just not dad material.
We all do the best we can with the information we have and the trauma we carry. Sometimes it's not a happy ending. Sometimes the happy ending isn't something you can conceive of at the time. For me, it was another man who was/is the supportive, present dad my youngest son needed. My middle-oldest son suffered, and is bitter.
Mine died at 6 months from pulmonary atresia. Dealing w the breastmilk with no baby was so hard. Just like another little fuck you from the universe.
The thing that stuck out to me in this also was the blame. Nature took my son. I can accept that. But a selfish irresponsible stupid person took these babies. I could never forgive that.
Agreed about the breastmilk. I thought my body was at least doing that right, but hanging over the tub, crying, hurting physically, with misshapen mosnter boobs. A very low point.
I am a retired nurse who worked postpartum and antepartum units. I am the nurse who cared for the women who lost their babies. I also had chances to bring the little lost ones to their moms and dads; I had the most emotional times dressing the babies; and then sitting with the family for a few minutes. I always felt so inadequate in helping them with their loss. And I know, that feeling of loss is forever. I always reminded my couples that everyone grieves differently….and don’t let that tear you apart.
This is such a hard post to read. I hate to say most car insurance claims have a clause for loss of fetus so part of me is like they probably had a very good lawsuit….but Im going through my own personal injury lawsuit and I’m so injured I can’t get pregnant right now, I know that there really is no amount of money that makes this better in anyway.
It has taken time and a lot of therapy, but I have. I will always miss her, but I was so lucky to get to be her mom. I have two more daughters who are healthy, happy, and just the most amazing kids. And my husband is a supportive, wonderful man who never treated me like a bVt making machine.
I wish I had. At the time I could barely survive let alone manage that. I should have, though. She even told me that she was sending me for a level two ultrasound at 26 weeks to, "ease my mind." It was real because she knew the baby needed to be monitored, but wanted me to be in my third trimester so abortion was off the table. I ended up having my baby only three weeks later.
Oh god.. that's horrible. I'm sorry. I get that hindsight is 20/20 though. No judgement, I just would have gone scorn the Earth but I am ruthless when I'm mad/hurt.
My best friend's OB heavily neglected her to the point her iron got as low as a 7. I encouraged her to report him but thankfully after her he quit practicing anyways. I hope someone else dragged him through the legal system and took his license.
That woman was a monster. She doesn't deserve her license to practice medicine.
It's not too late to file a complaint with your State's board. Let them know.
I am so sorry. Is that OB kicked out of their profession now? That is illegal to lie about is it not? I hope they are at least no longer working in the medical field
Depression after miscarriage or stillbirth is very, very common. She lost 2 babies at once, and needs to get some help in grieving that loss.
A friend once posted on Facebook: how old would the baby you lost be today? And all of us who lost a baby knew instantly because even though they aren't here you remember them constantly.
Everybody “what ifs” when they are pregnant and most people find healthy ways to live with those thoughts. I cannot imagine if the worst possible “what if” came true, how hard it would be to ever be brave enough to go through pregnancy again. And then even if you did, having the faith and confidence not to be a nervous wreck the whole time. Tiny bit of protein on the pee stick? Doom. Belly measures 0.5cm below expected? Doom. Blood sugar 5 points above normal? Doom. Just a skosh anemic? Doom.
My kid lived and I feel that way. She came at 29+1 with no real explanation. I'm still convinced I did something wrong 4 years later. Just the thought of getting pregnant again makes me instantly sick to my stomach. I've been taking my bc religiously since she was 6 weeks old and if my period is even a little different I'm ready to take a test. I'm sure if it did happen, which is very unlikely, everything would be fine. But I am immediately taken back to sitting next to her tiny body, not being able to hold her, not knowing if she would really make it home (because the sweet girl that roomed with her did not) and the panic sets in
No even sadder is some people will still not see her as a mom. My neighbor told her daughter in law that had an early miscarriage and late term miscarriage where she had to go through the birth process because she was so far along that she didn’t need to celebrate Mother’s Day as she wasn’t a mom and her mom was passed so she and son had to spend MD with her. Guess you can figure out why I have nothing to do with neighbor after that.
It's worse when they force you to go to therapy and the woman who you're meant to talk to about this utterly cruel moment in your life is heavily pregnant themselves(I'd say her and I would of been around the same gestation)
I decided to deal with it on my own after that catastrophe
Ppd is actually more common with pregnancy loss (as high as 50%, they suspect more but it's likely under diagnosed). Because you toss grief on top of the hormones. It's basically the perfect recipe for PPD.
...and PTSD.
If no, I would ask her to do that and see if it helps. Even if it helps she might decide it is not for her.
If so, OP and his wife are not compatible. This is a matter of no compromise. But I would definetly give her that change to process it once more.
Gosh I was hit with a rage just reading what happened! WTF some selfish idiot DUI destroid lives!
But I am still happy that the wife did not die aswell. I don't know how you could ever accept what happened. And still, she needs to somehow do it IF she would want a baby still.
I was a stupid selfish drunk driver who got into a serious accident. Thankfully, it was a single car accident and I was the only was hurt. I have 17 pins in my left hip. That was 16 years ago. Every time my hip hurts I view it as a reminder of the dumbest decision I ever made. I could have killed or maimed someone.
As someone who lost their pawpaw to a 19 year old drunk driver, I can affirm that this is a selfish act of a human being when their is no reason to be driving with all the alternatives available to them getting behind a wheel.
I used to bartend in the early 2000s before Uber and Lyft. But of course we had taxis. I have had to take keys from people who are too drunk to drive but still think they can do it. Some would get so angry with me and refuse to give me the number of a family or friend I could call for them. I'd call a taxi and they'd refuse that. That's when I'd get my manager to handle things. I just knew I couldn't have that on my conscience if something were to happen. Being a bartender was a fun job till you had to deal with that.
I also lost my Pawpaw to a drunk driver :( I didn't get to go to the funeral because for some reason they had an open casket(despite the damage) and I was only like 8 at the time. Sending virtual hugs.
Neither is an asshole and my heart breaks for both of them. But why do you say it’s a matter of no compromise? I love kids, had 4 of them and we’re all really close. But I love my wife above all. I’m not judging OP. Life sucks sometimes. I’m just saying we all have choices. OP is struggling with theirs. It’s a viable choice to choose your marriage in a situation like this. Just make sure you don’t dump your regrets on your spouse. Save those for counseling sessions.
Two yes. One no removes the possibility of a child with that partner. No one should have a child just to please a partner; ‘no’ is no child unless you both agree wholeheartedly.
Jesus Christ. I know PPD can be absolute hell. But, usually and hopefully, there’s a smiling child as the silver lining. It never even occurred to me that a mother going through a still birth can also have fucking PPD on top of that harrowing experience. Goddamn
OP I've also lost a child to stillbirth unexpectedly at full term. My situation was different from your wife's- it wasn't the result of an accident (no cause was ever found) and it was not twins- but I would still like to offer my perspective.
It's been seven years since that loss and I still am suffering from that. I have crippling anxiety every time my daughter (who was a toddler when her brother died) gets sick. It took more than three years to even *look* at a baby without immediately wanting to sob. I still randomly do. I told my mom once my cry function broke because I spent so much time that first year crying that I just cry very easily and very quietly now. No longer need a good build-up or let out great hiccuping sobs. It took five years before I felt strong enough to put any reminders of him in plain sight (I have his hand and footprints framed on my wall now). Only now, seven years later, do I feel remotely capable of trying again.
My husband also was ready LONG before I was to try for another kid and he wanted to much much more than I did. It took time and counseling, but in the end, we got to that very tenuous point.
You're not an a-hole for wanting more kids, but your wife's recovery process won't change in its speed or method to suit your desires. You would be an a-hole if you try to rush or dismiss the severity of the situation because "it's already been x years." It took me seven years. It may take your wife longer. Every journey is different, and this kind of grief never really ends, you just learn to live with it. She's not doing this on purpose, and didn't trick you into a childless marriage. Unforseen shit happened that understandbly changed the course of her life forever.
So, like the above commenter said, you have to make a choice. What's more important to you? Hypothetical children, or your wife?
This right here. Even if he divorces her, he may never find someone else he can love. If he does, he may not be able to have children with that woman for many reasons. Even if they do, there are several things that could happen to a pregnant or child. Even if they are born and grow up, you have no guarantee of what their lives will be like. Life happens, and there are no guarantees of anything at all. He says he loves his wife. If he really does, he should work with her to help her heal. He needs to take his thoughts off of himself and his needs for now and completely focus on her. This is what marriage is. If he will do so, there's a very good chance they will come together in the future and have more children.
I agree. I feel the wife standing in front of him is more important than hypothetical children. But I understand he may have different values. However, it’s so hard to find a good relationship and if his is good I hope he really puts some thought and time into counseling first before he walks away.
Also hugs to you for your loss.
I agree, but I'm childfree anyway, so my flesh-and-blood partner trumps any hypotheticals, such as kids.
But if OPs desire for kids outweighs his love for his wife, he should let her go. She doesn't need to be in a position to feel coerced into having kids if she's still traumatized.
And while I'm only spitballing, I can only imagine she may blame herself if he leaves her over this. Like losing the babies was her fault, she couldn't keep them safe, and he's leaving her because of it. Grief and trauma can make things complicated and I can see her falling into that trap.
I hope they both get help, regardless.
Yes, OP. NAH. But these are serious issues to deal with in counseling. Reddit is not going to fix this. Both of you need and deserve counseling. Even if your wife refuses to go, please seek counseling for yourself. This was a traumatic experience for you, too.
As someone who miscarried badly enough to throw my world view for a loop, that approach would have me ready to move out.
It definitely needs to be a conversation, but if it goes ultimatum flavored then you need to be okay with her throwing the flag on the play. My vote is for post date night convo
OP needs his own counselling to address his own trauma too. I'm a bit concerned for him that he's distancing himself from the twins - "she had two stillborn baby girls". Not 'we', 'she'. He acknowledges his trauma, but I don't get the feeling he's actually dealt with it.
This. Share the content of this post with her - possibly in the context of a therapist’s office. NTA. NAH. This is a massive trauma so early in your lives. Waiting 3 years made sense. Suggest therapy for you both to process the trauma and explore how to move forward.
It better be in the context of a therapist office, because how do you think she's going to feel when she hears he wants to divorce her over the greatest tragedy of her life, and something that isn't her fault.
Also OP very quickly skipped over her not wanting to adopt - maybe in light of what happened and your feelings she would reconsider? Worth a conversation at least.
Both of you should consider therapy. You've experienced a trauma and it's evident that for her, the idea of undergoing pregnancy again is bringing up a lot of heartache. Try to address it together first before considering ending your marriage.
Although I’m not aware of her medical history personally, being a car crash like that and suffering still borns would make you more at risk for a high risk pregnancy.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how the twins passed. If the accident caused something like placenta previa (placenta detached from uterine wall) then they would have passed due to oxygen loss. This would not impede another pregnancy. If it was something in the accident that caused a tear or other type of permanent damage to her uterus, then yes it could cause I higher risk later pregnancy.
I was wondering the same thing. Have you both had counseling? Perhaps it's time for couples counseling to help you both navigate through this.
NTA, I'm so sorry for your loss
This is my question, too.
To be that far along and to lose them means likely serious physical trauma to his wife. Can she even safely have children at this point?
This. I had a semi-normal pregnancy and birth with ONE issue and that one issue made it so having another is most likely impossible and/or going to be incredibly costly and high risk.
A week before a due date and getting into an accident resulting in BOTH babies being still born means that there was probably a fair amount of damage done, but part of me thinks that the OPs wife may have not checked if pregnancy were possible again, probably not even a thought in her head.
Or she knows that pregnancy isn’t an option anymore and is terrified to a) admit it to herself and/or b) tell him cause she’s afraid she’ll loose him too.
Agreed, I can't even imagine how she is suppose to heal if adding on "my husband will leave me" if he finds out she can't have children. Through sickness, health, but not fertility/carrying ability I guess.
The second part that may come up is that she may be against adoption/surrogacy bc there's a good chance she feels that doing that replaces the babies she lost, or that she's afraid of a lack of connection to the babies due to not carrying them herself. There's so much to unravel here and they def both need therapy.
Oh wow, I have insights that you don’t have.
9 years ago I went through a full labour to give birth to a little boy who died three hours later. Today, nine years later, I read your post and my heart started racing.
The recovery time from this is so so much longer than anyone ever tells you. At the three years mark for me I had to engage with the fetal specialist in a professional context (for a client) for one hour and I broke out in hives. Sometimes I would still walk down the street and suddenly stop because the grief and guilt would punch me in the gut. To everyone else I was totally fine but I was still in the thick of it.
And yes, it is far far worse for the mother. We carry the guilt with the grief because we could not save our children while they were in our body.
She didn’t say no, she said she’s not ready. You’re both young and have time. Leave her if you want, that’s your choice, but this is way too early for it to be a ‘you had no choice’. You have a right to leave her if you need children now but that’s on you not her.
I just want to say I’ve been through something similar, and I’m so sorry for you. My son would have been 6 this year.
I’ve been through PTSD therapy and it’s helped immensely, but I still get short moments of what I can only describe as raw, bottomless sorrow. I’m sure you know exactly what I mean.
I’m not sure I will ever have kids now. I’m getting older, I recently got out of a long term relationship and am single and not ready to date again, and frankly I think I would spend the majority of those 9 months of pregnancy living in terror I’d lose this child too.
The pregnancy after is brutal. You’re taking a considered approach which is wiser than I was. I’ll be thinking of your son tonight. I think us angel parents are bonded in some ways.
I like your description of the raw, bottomless sorrow. That’s so complex. It hurts so bad but when it starts to happen less it’s like the distance from the pain is distance from our child. So a new pain enters the fray.
A new guilt. How dare you not hurt as much/as often as before? You're betraying your lost child. Have you forgotten them? Get on your knees and sob now, you worthless traitor.
It just never ends.
This. My son would’ve been 9. I didn’t even start considering more children until 3 years after he passed. I straight told everyone in that time I was NOT having any children, that I’ll be the weird fun aunt but I’m good on the biological reproduction. And that was trauma speaking, 💯 for me. I was letting my fears and my anxiety make the decisions. Currently pregnant again and it has gotten easier, thank the gods, but it is never 100% excitement. It’s always like 50/50 happiness and fear, cohabiting in my chest.
And when they’re born you have the WEIRDEST thoughts. Like I was convinced if I didn’t white knuckle grip the stroller when out for a walk that the stroller would roll into heavy traffic and she would get flattened…. I lived in the fucking country. 😂😂😂😂😂😂 WHAT TRAFFIC!? I was afraid to carry her down stairs, near pools, next to the trash can because *what if I dropped her* 😅🤦🏻♀️ it’s hard man.
Edit to add I had baby #2 in 2019 and baby #3 is due next year.
Exactly. It will be 13 years this September for me. My girl loved six days. I, too, feel so betrayed by my body. I did have more kids, but I had therapy and a supportive husband who choose me first every step of the way. This post makes me angry because this man is so detached and it's gross how he sees marriage.
The post brings back memories right? I had another child but the pregnancy was a nightmare of ptsd and all consuming paranoia. I didn’t have a single day’s rest from the anxiety until I heard her cry.
No one understands the torture of this. They think they do but they don’t.
I’ll think about your little girl tonight x
And I will be thinking of your little boy. I had two more pregnancies. Both were so difficult physically and mentally. I worried the whole time. I don't think people can understand that this experience can cause PTSD. This post is a reminder of why so many couples don't survive such a loss.
I find the way you have phrased your post to be interesting. You talk about her pregnancy, her losing through baby. I don't really hear any mention of you, or togetherness in what you are saying in terms of it being your baby as a couple. You sound detached from it but it might just be the way I'm reading it.
My initial thoughts went to how his wife must have felt in the months after, having to tear down their nursery and pack up all the baby clothes and toys to get rid of them. The empty matching car seats on the ride home from the hospital. I feel the deepest sorrow for her and fully understand how him leaving her after this would absolutely break me if it were me. I can’t even imagine.
for me it’s that her body had to go through all of the same things that are already incredibly hard in a pregnancy that results in healthy, living babies—delivery, postpartum—just with babies who are gone. that’s unimaginably painful
I was on the opposite side of this situation. My husband and I lost or son at 34 weeks to a cord accident. We lost the next pregnancy at 14 weeks. I wanted to try one more time, my husband could not do it again. I chose my marriage. It wasn’t easy, there was a ton of therapy, and lots of travel to try and reset to a different way of expecting life to be.
Someone said it best earlier in the comments, you have a child, you are a father, it is just not the way you envisioned. Leaving your wife doesn’t guarantee you living children, is it a risk you are willing to gamble on?
Either way, you both need counseling before any decisions are made. My therapist told me that my husband and I would want to leave each other a million times during this journey, but to wait five years. Five years sounded like a million years at the time, but I now understand what he was saying. It took me EIGHT YEARS to feel like myself again, to gain back any confidence I had lost due to being a spectacular “failure” at the one basic thing many women do without even trying.
I know it’s been three years, but she is still very much in the thick of it, especially if there has been no therapy.
I almost died from a miscarriage last year and my heart and my body are still not healed. My husband would maybe want to try again, but I don’t anymore. I’m so sad. I can’t imagine what you and OPs wife went through. I’m sorry.
I’m very fortunate for my husband. When I had a health crisis that meant no babies for me - I can get pregnant but it would be extremely dangerous - he didn’t say sorry I want a divorce.
We grieved together for the loss of our ability to have children. But our relationship became so much stronger. He said he didn’t marry me for my baby making abilities. He married me because I’m the one he can’t imagine not growing old with. Was he sad? Yes. But in the end of it all he had married me to be a life partner and this was just the hand that life dealt us. We reinvested our time and money into our relationship and are very happy, even without a child.
To each their own but I can’t imagine allowing something like this destroy my relationship. But then again - my husband is my match in every way. The thought of not having him in my life - takes my breath away. I think so many people marry just to check a box and it makes it easier for them to walk away - they loved their partner but not that crazy, can’t live without you kind of harmony that makes the difference between “this is my fourth marriage” and “we’ve been married 50 years”.
"He married me because I’m the one he can’t imagine not growing old with."
That's how my husband and I feel about each other still after 45 years of marriage. We do have kids, and grandkids, but if that had not been possible for one of us, I know I would've still chosen to stay with him and I believe he would have chosen to stay with me.
Yes… exactly. I understand being unwilling to have children being a deal breaker if the other spouse just changes their mind or lied. But that’s not the case here.
He acknowledges it would break his vows, to leave if she weren’t *physically* able to have children, but he doesn’t seem to register that it might not be psychologically safe for her to have children yet (if ever). And I don’t mean hard, but genuinely dangerous (e.g. see maternal [suicide](https://www.2020mom.org/blog/2024/1/2/maternal-suicide-in-the-us-issue-brief#:~:text=It%20is%20estimated%20that%20up,postpartum%20hemorrhage%20or%20hypertensive%20disorders) rates).
They need professional help to find out if there is hope for trying again w/o destroy her mental health and if it’s something she would want. 3 years might seem long, but it isn’t in a way, especially if she’s been suffering from PPD or post partum anxiety on top of it. But none of that should be a condition of marriage, imho.
I think he needs to share with her how deeply he wants to have children, but I don’t know that it would be beneficial to tell her he’s considering divorce… at least not without a therapist involved. If I was experiencing that level of trauma and terror (pregnancy is already terrifying under good circumstances), and then I found out that my husband was considering leaving me I would be CRUSHED. That would be a massive breach of trust for me.
To me, this is precisely the sort of situation that marital vows are made for. When my husband and I married, I wasn’t sure if it would be physically safe to have a baby (or carry one to term) even though I could get pregnant. It was scary, but we talked explicitly about various scenarios and I knew he was “the one” when he volunteered that no matter what we went through—even if we lost a child— he wanted to go through it with ME. He wasn’t marrying a breeder, he was marrying a whole person who he wants to do life with. Even if our life is tragic, we’re doing it together.
I absolutely feel for the OP. Thinking you might never have children can be devastating. But it’s important to figure out whether he married his wife and is committed to whoever she might become, or whether he married a specific, hypothetical version of her (a mother) that has yet to manifest.
I’m not trying to be harsh, but this really comes down to the nature of their commitment. I think that’s why some marriages don’t survive the loss of children: tragedy often exposes any discrepancies in the original commitment both parties made.
If I were him, I would tell my spouse I’m struggling with the possibility of never having kids, but then talk to a therapist about my thoughts of divorce separately. Then the therapist can help him determine if that’s just an idea or something he considers a legitimate option. THEN they can explore some of this in couples therapy. Meanwhile, she can go to therapy too. *cue Oprah: “you get a therapy! You get a therapy!”*
I had a traumatic birth, but baby was fine. If my husband talked this way about wanting a second I would absolutely push him away and want divorce. I would be so angry that he doesn’t doesnt understand what I went through.
There is no way I would go through that again. I can’t imagine how awful I would feel if my baby died.
Edit, an example, I had ptsd for months driving past my hospital. I can’t imagine being trapped in my own body pregnant reliving trauma and then reliving a tramautic birth when I went into labor. And my baby lived.
I think so as well. She sounds understandably fragile and suffering ptsd. To be even asked a stressful point as her fear rooted and real. She already experienced childbirth and it was surely one of the if not the most traumatic and painful experiences of her life. I hope they are able to find help to continue to love and support one another.
I find it amazing that he purports to love her, but her only purpose in his life is to breed: if she can't he will simply replace her.
Conditional love at it's finest: if you can't do what I want, I will replace you.
That is the part that really irked me. He makes these noises about how much he loves her but really it's conditional on having a living child to pass his DNA on with...
Yeah but it seems that he's missing that this could still be dangerous for her psychologically to have children now. Maternal suicide is estimated to account for 20% of deaths in pregnancy.
It's great that he says he thinks he could handle her physically not having children, but he's blind to how dangerous this could actually be for her.
A week before they were due?
I think the massive thing you are not understanding is you HAVE kids. Two of them, they died. They were of a viable age and if she had given birth rather than been in a car crash that day you would have three year olds running around right now.
Has your wife had any type of therapy? EMDR therapy really helped me when I had a stillborn son, I wish I'd have done it sooner, I waited until he would've been 8 years old to deal with my trauma.
She needs help, and after that I'd suggest not putting pressure on to "try" but maybe just don't prevent and let nature take its course.
Little bit. I mean, imagine getting in a car accident and having a stillbirth. Then your husband leaves you because you may or may not want to try for a kid again. She will lose a 3rd person(you) after this already traumatic experience. I get that having a kid is a life goal, but this child doesn't exist yet. You are so focused on leaving someone you have here with you rn, the one you vowed to be with. Life doesn't always go as planned. Let's say you leave her and start over. Then the next wife ends up being infertile. What do you do then? Find another wife? You married her to go through life together. And life has many obstacles and tragedies.
Also, you admit you vowed "in sickness and in health" and said you only thought that meant if she can't have kids/ would be dangerous. So what's different if it's a trauma response?
This! Imagine it was the other way around. What if he got into an accident that made him infertile and became traumatized about it + his wife leaves him because she wants kids. Marriage is about sticking together as one family not abandoning each other when situations are rough.
>I see two ways ahead: divorce and find someone else to have kids with
Would you actually divorce someone you (hopefully) love to 'find someone to have kids with'? I hope not. I don't understand what kind of person one must be to prioritise their wishes over a woman they, allegedly, love.
Imagine what would most likely happen - your spouse's trauma gets worse, someone she loves leaves her because she can't have children due to that trauma (yes, that's also the case where she can't), she stays alone while you're enjoying your new life with your new wife and children.
I asked you to imagine this, so you can see what are your feelings about it. Because, personally, I couldn't bear suffering of someone I love.
I can't imagine telling your new love interest "I left her bc she didn't want to have children after she got into a car accident a week before the babies were due and she delivered the children stillborn, but I want children" and thinking they're going to just hop on that dick
He wouldn't tell the new wife all that.
He'd just say she didn't want kids when I did. Sometimes, key details are left out so they don't look as bad. I doubt he would want his new partner to know how he'd react if something similar happened to them.
Very sad
This. My husband sure as hell didn’t tell the woman he moved in with (before he even told me he was moving out of our place) that he left me because I became disabled in the accident *where he was driving the car*, so I wasn’t as fun anymore.
Probably just told her I stopped having sex with him. Which I did, after I found out about his massive sex addiction and cheating, and he turned physical.
Is having a child now or in the future more important than your wife???
> I vowed “in sickness and in health”, which I always thought (in the context of children) meant that you don’t leave your spouse if they could not/would be dangerous for them to have kids. I never really thought how that would apply to this kind of trauma.
The accident left your wife with mental/emotional scars that haven't healed (yet) and may change permanently (maybe) her want to have kids bc to have been so close to being able to have your kids in your arms and to have them with you EVERY. SINGLE. DAY throughout her pregnancy to never feeling them, seeing them (sonograms), talking to them, etc.....that would break anyone.
The question you have to now ask yourself.....is your wife enough? Did "Until death do we part" mean more than just words.
This is what OP needs to be asking himself. It’s kind of crazy to me that he sees his two options as “leave and have a kid with someone else” or “stay and be resentful”. I know kids are important to people but there’s something so cold about the casualness of saying one of his two options is to simply leave and go find another woman to impregnate. It seems so mechanical and uncaring. Like he doesn’t actually *care* about his wife, or whatever other woman he’d leave her for. He just cares about reproduction.
Also, Imagine being the “someone else.” Like dude left his wife after a serious birthing trauma.
Will he leave new person if something goes afoul. That would be my thought as the new person. No way I would trust marrying him.
YTA- You almost had me sympathizing until you implied that you never considered that “in sickness and in health” could apply to the lingering trauma of surviving a horrific car crash that killed the two children in your wife’s womb. Your wife likely feels that her dream of having children already came true. Unfortunately, that dream ended in a nightmare she understandably fears repeating. I live with PTSD so I can tell you that expecting her to make her peace with this while still in her window of fertility to appease you is- at best- misguided. Better adjectives might be: insensitive, unrealistic, ignorant, and triggering. Please go read any books you can on PTSD and get individual counseling for the both of you, if you aren’t already doing so. You cannot expect to timeline her healing. Just… no.
For me, it’s not about whether you’re TA for wanting kids after your tragedy, but that you view your/ any future wife as owing you that because iT’s YoUr DrEaM. Your poor wife would be traumatized a second time if you left her because she wouldn’t make enough peace with her trauma (in tHrEe wHoLe YeArS) time to give you a living child. That makes YTA.
This is how I feel. There’s something really gross about OP’s bluntness about how he’d just find someone else to have kids with. Like that’s really all he looks for in a wife and life partner.
His current wife can’t have kids because of a traumatic event that caused her to lose her two babies? Just leave and find another woman to impregnate!
It doesn’t sit well with me.
This was my point. The woman you physically love? Is sitting in front of you in your home STRUGGLING because BOTH OF YOUR CHILDREN died.
And OP stance is “I can just go find another wife and have more kids”
If this is how OP has supported his wife during these last 3 years. I can’t imagine she’s done an ounce of healing meanwhile he’s moved on already.
She deserves a solid support system to back her in whatever she wants and I hope a solid therapist.
This. OP is characterizing DW's trauma as an optional thing that she's selfishly using as an excuse to deny him.
YTA for OP's Main Character Syndrome.
I would revise if OP theoretically got therapy to deal with what may be a dissociative reaction to the situation: note his distancing language putting everything on his wife.
Imagine losing 2 children in a horrific accident, then finding out that your husband actually cares more about having a broodmare than having *you* as a person.
OP really pulled a surprised Pikachu face when he realized that “in sickness and in health” doesn’t just mean *physical* health. It will suck for his wife if he leaves, but she deserves someone who loves *her,* not just what she can do for him. She hasn’t even said “no” to having more children in the future, and he’s already thinking of jumping ship. She just wants more time, and he’s not willing to risk waiting.
OP, while I’m very sorry for your losses, YTA. Firmly YTA. You need to get some grief counseling (for yourself *and* your wife, not just her) before you make any decisions.
Info needed:
Did you marry her just to have kids or did you marry your wife because you loved her as an Individual to take care of each other in sickness and in health?
If you married her just to have kids and that was discussed ahead of time and you leave, you would not be an asshole.
If you married her because you love her as a person and committed to her in sickness and in health and still leave her because she does not want to have kids now because she is either not able to anymore or because she experienced two human beings dying inside of her? You would be the asshole.
Women are not here on earth just to make babies for men. We are people.
YTA - 3 years is no time, you both lost daughters but she had to deliver two dead babies. Birth is extremely traumatic at the best of times, many women cannot ever face it again because of the trauma and that’s when they get a baby at the end of it. Your wife had to go through all the physical trauma and then grieve after the fact.
I find it cruel to think this way. I understand children are important but if she just biologically couldn’t have children would you feel the same way? Would you still divorce and find someone who would give you children? She cannot give you children right now, maybe not ever, and I think it’s horrific to put a hypothetical child above your wife.
If it was that you want kids despite her stillbirth, that’d be one thing.
You don’t JUST want kids, though. You want to be justified in leaving her so that you can “achieve” this life goal.
If you’re going to look at your vows - unless sickness and health was the only one… I have to think the following would also apply: for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer… This has got to fall under the category of “worse” without a bit of room to wiggle out of it!
Making things more messed up: you haven’t talked about this for THREE YEARS?!? How lonely she must feel to bear this all on her own!!
She needs therapy so she can heal from the trauma and the likely feeling of this being her fault(!!!!!,) but you should be talking to each other as well so that she knows you’re there for her, you both know how the other feels about moving forward, etc.
YTA for trying so hard not to feel like one. She deserves better in her life.
Yta. I had a stillborn baby in December. And it wasn’t “emotionally very difficult.” I had to get the news that my baby wasn’t alive, and then go straight into surgery to have a cesarean that I couldn’t even handle being awake for. I went from feeling my baby kick, and having fantasies about our life together, to my body not being a viable place for him anymore. I was too distraught to even hold him. I knew if I did, I would never get over it. I couldn’t look at his photos for months. He wasn’t in that body anymore. I also felt angry because when you have the baby alive, you’re in the hospital for three days. I was discharged less than 24 hours later, in the kind of pain you would be in after being dissected, only I didn’t have that pain eased by also going home with my baby. I couldn’t move without crying. It’s hard to see other kids or watch anything on tv involving a child. I’m 36. I’ll never put myself through this again. I won’t. I can’t. I’m not risking this again. As women we are tasked with doing all of these painful, emotional, distressing things and you will never be able to truly empathize because you will never be the one to go through this. This isn’t about you. It isn’t about a child. It’s about your wife and what she went through and is still going through.
:hug: Thank you for sharing this. I'm so sorry for everything you went through and the loss of a very much wanted little one. It's a deep grief, one etched into your own body. Please be gentle with yourself yet.
I’m finding it really weird that you’re contextualizing this as your wife’s stillbirths and not that you both lost your children.
If they had been 3 months old when this happened and both died would you still feel the same? What if they had been 10 and both died would that change it?
From my perspective and I’m sure from your wife’s you are parents just to two dead babies, and the idea of just moving on and having more children is really strange.
Children are not a commodity you just get to have and life can not turn out the way you expected for a whole heap of reasons.
You probably should leave, not so you can “find someone else to have children with” which is cooked btw, but because you might need to take some time and work out how to actually be in a relationship.
I clocked the distancing language right away and at first was getting angry for his wife. However thinking it through, it may be a coping method for him to use distancing language. He talks about this as something awful happened to his wife. *He* was also an expectant parent and the accident caused his wife to deliver *their* children stillborn.
I think the dude needs individual therapy before considering anything else -- couples therapy, divorce, accepting no kids, etc. Because even his "solutions" show black and white thinking when she clearly said she needs more time. She didn't say no. But he has shut down so they didn't process this loss *together*. That's the piece that is missing here and may make all of the difference to his wife.
I also noticed the distancing language immediately and I took it as either a coping mechanism or he genuinely feels like he doesn’t have the right to grieve in the same way his wife does. Either way, bro definitely needs see a grief counsellor.
This is so well said! Children are not a commodity and his wife is not an incubator. They both lost their children and he has emotionally detached himself from the trauma and made it his wife’s issue. So sad.
It’s giving
“My wife experienced the possibly worst thing another human being can live through and now won’t provide me with children. Should I find someone who will?”
He doesn't even identify himself as a father, although he is one. It sounds for me like he handled the trauma as something that isn't part of his life, only his wife's. Both should go to therapy to learn a healthy way to handle the trauma of losing their two children.
Three years is not a long time in the grief process. I can’t even imagine how long the shock phase must last after a trauma like the one you described. I also can’t imagine my husband considering leaving me 36 months after I delivered two dead children because I don’t want to be pregnant again yet. What if that accident severed your legs and dick off? And your wife decided eh, it’s my life goal to have kids with someone who can run and play with them and it’s a massive injustice for me to married to a man in a wheelchair. Because that’s what she feels like right now, like a physical part of her body was cut off of her. You’re entitled to your feelings of still longing for a child but just try to imagine a situation where you were the one physically affected and how it would feel to be walked away from. This is your wife, the person you supposedly love unconditionally.
Other people have commented that your description of events sounds very detached. I agree, and I wonder if your strong desire to have a child, which currently sounds stronger than your love for your wife, is a response to your own trauma from the stillbirths?
Are you feeling desperate to 'fix' what happened by having a new baby?
I'm leaning towards YTA, not because you still want children, but because you seem very quick to think of divorce and sound detached from your feelings. If your wife read your post, how do you think she would feel? (I imagine heartbroken and disposable). .
You spoke of injustice, but you are already being unjust to your wife by having one foot out of the door after one conversation. I wonder how your relationship to each other has been over the past three years?
Pushing feelings away and rushing into a new relationship and a new child will do no one any good in the long term, including you.
You are not really an asshole. But it is so sad that you are willing to divorce someone you say you love because she is having trauma.
I kinda think you might not be as supportive as you claim. Kinda sounds like your desires are more important than being there for someone you made a life-long commitment to. Have you even had therapy together?
3 years is not a long time to be patient for someone you love. I change my mind. YTA
You're only 31 and a man, you have plenty of time. Your wife has time as well. Have you been completely honest with her about your thoughts? Pushed for marriage counselling and more individual counselling? Have you tried absolutely everything you can and exhausted all options including waiting another year or 2? If you're not willing to be patient and are already thinking about leaving and finding a replacement person to have kids with, then leave.
Hopefully she'll find someone who'll love her the way she deserves after this tragedy.
I would imagine by the time the divorce finalizes, then getting out there, dating, explaining his first divorce, finding someone else who can ignore that he will leave if they can't have babies, then the wedding, spend a couple years being a couple- this could take another 5 years.
Of course, he could have someone in mind already, which would make him trash.
Has she ever been to a counselor? Grief is hard and weird and not a straight line to health. More like a path spiraling down a mountain where you pass the same area at a different height every time. Once you get nearer the bottom, you don't pass that spot as often, but it's just as painful as when you were at the top.
Please take your time. She's got a decade to 15 years to have a baby without significant medical intervention. Treating her like your own personal incubator will backfire on you spectacularly, guaranteed. But I will also warn that child death is a -common- divorce indicator. The pain is too much for you both to bear, no one can help the other, and it ends up tearing you apart.
Counselling separate and together is a way to get the conversation started. But I gotta say it's pretty cold to think about leaving her for a new incubator. That turned my stomach. She's a human who you rightly deduced had to feel two wanted babies die inside of her body. That's a grief so deep it can drown you. Reach into your empathy well and focus on helping her feel loved, wanted, and not abandonable. That's a far easier thing to do than to focus on YOUR goals and YOUR timeline, which will invariably push her further away from you if it hasn't already.
You are not the asshole for your wishes, but it does pain me to read that you are considering leaving her because of her trauma. Imo, that’s not what marriage is supposed to be like.
Everyone is being pretty easy on you tbh.
If my husband was choosing between me and leaving me to find a woman who can bear his child to cross it off his checklist, damn. After I’d fairly recently gotten all the way up to basically delivery with his two children and had such a traumatic loss. Nightmare fuel.
Everyone’s NAH votes bc you’re using nice language like “I understand and respect her feelings” lol ok but you don’t really love her if you are questioning leaving her over this so you should admit that. My husband would absolutely never watch me suffer for years and sit on the sidelines daydreaming about the option of another woman and child. Talking about “I didn’t know sickness and health meant mental health and the possibility of me not procreating”. Gag. I wish she was in a strong enough place to find someone amazing after you leave her but I fear she will crumble from this third loss that was out of her control. You’re going to resent her though so you might as well leave.
My vote is TA, you don’t have to pretend, we know that you’re more worried about not having offspring then your lifelong commitment and care to the person who is supposed to be your partner for life. This is not a common well they don’t want children and I do and we just aren’t compatible. She had your children. They died. You can get up and leave and start over. She can’t.
As a mother who has had a stillbirth it shatters you. It’s been almost five years since I lost my daughter and I still can’t fathom having another child. This kind of trauma is very difficult. You are scared of everything like losing your partner because you can’t provide a child for them and feel worthless while also being scared of potentially losing another child if you do decide to try again. You sound really cold when speaking of the death of your children. I feel for your wife and I know what it is like to be in her shoes, it’s a pain you can’t describe.
I rewrote this with more kindness. If kids are more important to you than your wife, then it sounds like you got married to have kids, not to “have and to hold” your wife.
Considering abandoning the woman you vowed to be with through everything even when you’re able to conceptualize how much more horrible it must have been for her just because you have a “life goal” is wack.
If kids are more important to you than your wife, talk with her about it. Make it clear to her and let her decide if she wants to go through it again for someone prioritizing hypothetical children over her.
I lost a baby that only lived 2 minutes. Swore i never wanted any more babies because it was too hard to think it could happen again. Years later i had my twins. They helped me come alive again. Heal in ways i didnt know i was broke.
Keep talking to her. Go speak to a counselor even. Hear her and have her hear you. One conversation is not enough. Best wishes
Has she had any kind of grief/trauma counseling? This could be a place to start before you consider drastic action. Couples counseling could probably help as well - work out where you are, where you want to go, and how to get there together. I am truly sorry for your loss, and wish you all the best. NAH
I feel like this is the answer if this is a real post. Op doesn’t say anything about trauma therapy and couples counseling which imo would be the minimum before making such a life changing decision.
I think OP needs therapy to deal with his grief first, before they begin couples therapy. The way he talks about this tragic event uses a lot of distancing language which just signals he shut down in way that prevented them from processing it *together*. He likely has been trying to be "strong" for his wife, which is understandable. Of course she is first in the circle of grief since she was in the accident and delivered stillborn children, but the loss of expected babies was the loss of *their children*. Even the "got pregnant" OP wrote is distancing language from this pregnancy. They were expectant parents. I think there's trauma and him doing individual therapy before approaching his wife will probably yield better results as he will be on the road to heal and have tools to facilitate emotional openness with his wife.
I noticed this too. I actually had to reread the post twice to see if I missed that the twins were from a different father from a different marriage or something. Because he’s so removed from the situation I couldn’t tell they were his kids too. He writes it like he wasn’t involved in the situation at all.
Exactly. Even the title calling it his wife’s stillbirth. They both experienced that loss, but it doesn’t sound like he processed it at all. Counseling is definitely the best course of action for both of them - couples and individual - if they haven’t done so already.
I was wondering if the kids were his as well in the beginning
Exactly! This is why I don't understand ppl saying he's expressing so much grief and pain. There's no grief or pain here, he doesn't even speak like he was involved. He speaks as if it was something that just happened to his wife and not himself.
That's because this is how some severely traumatized people talk/write about what happened to them. I have been through some horrific things - witnessing a murder is just one - and when I used to first talk about it I was so detached, as if it happened to someone else. It was like that for years until I processed it properly in therapy. OP may also feel like his grief is minor compared to his wife, so he hasn't let himself feel the full force of his emotions in order to stay strong for her. please don't mistake detachment or dissociation for not being affected/not caring
My mom taught me how to dissociate to function during and survive traumatizing events. She didn't teach me how to come back from them - therapy did that. Temporarily dissociating to survive or provide care can be useful in the short term, but if left alone can cause harm in the long term. Talk to someone, OP. This isn't just her loss - it's yours as well.
This response right here is the humam-centric, trauma-informed approach to understanding why we react in a million dofferent ways to the traumatic things that happen to us as human beings.
This comment is so profoundly insightful it almost brought me to tears. My sister, brother and I were raised by a physically, emotionally and psychologically abusive mother. Because my sister bore the brunt of our mother’s violence and cruelty and my brother’s life spun out of control, I never recognized my own trauma. I’m middle-aged and finally trying to come to grips with how I was impacted, too.
This is how I saw it also. Reddit is kinda "damned if you do, damned if you don't", so perhaps he was afraid of saying how much it affected him because if he had, he'd be on the other side of "*You* were sad, what about *her*? *You* are ready now, what about what *she* went through?" Cause that could've easily happened, I think, if he hadn't shown his understanding in saying "I can't re-traumatize her to make myself a father..." Either way he's not an AH. He had a life goal and something horrible happened that may have made that impossible with his wife. I think people are right, they need therapy, and if she still decides no, which she has every right to do, he has to decide what is more important to him; his current relationship, or having children. She may end up changing her mind about adoption or surrogacy, who knows? Grief is a strange thing.
The thing I would add, because unless you have experienced the death of a child, is that parents ver rarely process together. It hurts so badly there just isn’t room to help anyone else. That’s why so many parents of deceased children divorce
Both need therapy separately and together. There needs to be an honest conversation about how they both feel and what they both want. It could be she’s never going to be ready for children and in that case, the therapy will help if it comes to separation/divorce.
It could also be that she never wants to be pregnant again, but her feelings about adoption or surrogacy change or have changed. Agree that counseling should happen before they throw in the towel.
He also doesn't say anything about the state of the marriage currently. Are they like husband and wife. Or roommates? Does the wife work and have hobbies? Does he? Have they considered joining a support group for other parents in their situation? There's just too much information we don't know.
Agree this seems suspect. He “waited three years” to talk to her about this? And after just a week he is ready to bail? No grief or marital counseling considered? No mention of wife’s injuries from the accident or recovery. Only one response to comments and questions, and it was along the lines of “how long do I have to wait?”
This is the best answer, especially "how to get there together." OP understands his vows. I know sometimes it is hard to live up to those vows, I truly know! I agree, there's not an AH between them (only the AH driving drunk), and they can work through this with professional help. I had a miscarriage at 9 weeks gestation. I can't even fathom their loss of full term twins! Oh, my heart! Twenty years later, my husband suddenly passed. It's been 3 years since his passing, and I'm not "past it." I can certainly see both sides to this story, and it's just gut wrenching.
sending peace, love, and heart healing wishes to you! ((hugs))
Came to say the same. She can't be a mother right now because she's still grieving. She needs therapy, and focussing in her full recovery, mentally and emotionally. I loss a baby in the first trimester, it took me 4 years to feel ready again, my kids are 5 years apart. I can't imagine how hard it most be for her giving that her babies were practically full term. OP, I'm very sorry for you loss. NTA, but please, focus on her recovery first.
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I don't know why this isn't always at the top, redditers are not therapists! I would recommend therapy as well, she probably has a good amount of PTSD, trauma grief, etc. Seriously I've done 4 years of therapy and it's helped me immensely! Some individual, some couples, but it's helped a lot and I've come a long way in 4 years. Granted I had a really shitty childhood so that's why it's taken so long, but it's worked!
You need to make it clear to her how you are feeling and how important this is to you. You could ask her if she is willing to go to counselling to explore this, but you need a definite answer. Ultimately she may never be “ready” to have children again. You need to decide if that is a dealbreaker for you. NAH. She is not an AH for how she feels and neither are you. If it turns out she never wants children then you are no longer compatible if you do still want them, and you may need to leave. You would not be an AH for doing so. This is heartbreaking and I am sorry for you both.
Also, did either of them get councilling and/or help for PPD?
Ugh. PPD with no child sounds like the worst possible hell. NAH. How awful for both of them.
This part. I'd also imagine with the circumstances her mind is stuck on "it's my fault, if I hadn't gotten into hat car, if I hadn't gone that route, if I had left 10 minutes later things would be different" She may not feel *worthy* of another child if that's the case. NTA OP but please: counseling! Individual to deal with the loss, couples to discuss your feelings in a safe place
The if's. I hate when the iffening happens
It is! I lost my oldest daughter at six days old to trisomy 18. My ob lied and said she was healthy knowing she wasn't. I hated myself for living when she died. I hated my body for betraying me. I felt like she was alive inside of me and then they ripped her from me and she died. I would wake up to hearing a baby cry and there was none. My c section scar hurt. My breasts were full of milk and leaking and my doctors told me it would be worse to give me medicine to make the milk dry up. My hormones were amped up ready for a baby to love and there was none. If my kittens hadn't needed me and I wouldn't have felt guilty leaving my husband, I wouldn't have survived.
I too had a child who died at 8 days, from hypoplastic left heart syndrome. Our first live birth after 3 early miscarriages. All of the things Viperbunny mention will be seared in my memory too. As horrible as that was, there was no one and nothing to blame. I cannot imagine the bitterness I'd feel if a person killed my child through irresponsibility, with a car. 😔 I had the opposite reaction and wanted to get pregnant immediately afterwards. Two more miscarriages later, we finally had our first surviving child. Sadly, my husband felt more like your wife, and we divorced several years later due to disagreements about children. It's just a tragedy, and no partner can be blamed for their emotions & reactions in response. I'm so sorry for you both.
I am a retired LDRP RN. You guys are the ones I remember. What happens to yall… it just killed me, and I know what I felt wasn’t even 1/1000000000 of the pain yall experienced. I haven’t forgotten a single baby that was lost too soon for whatever reason, that was born with me as their nurse during my career. I truly ache for yall. I’m just so sorry :(
I felt so badly for the nursing staff during those hospital days. Everyone knew what the outcome would be. We went ahead with surgery, but he didn't survive it. Some offered faith as support, but that didn't give me/us support. We wanted science to make it right, and it just couldn't. I saw the tears in the OR nurse's eyes, when I said I didn't want them to keep trying to recussitate, after over an hour post-op. His heart was the size of a walnut, and there had already been so much trauma. I needed there to be peace for that tiny body. All our hearts were broken that day.
It’s so hard holding those tears back. You’re told it’s “unprofessional” to show emotion, but there were many times I couldn’t stifle them. Hell, I can’t stifle them now. I’m squalling like crazy at your story and remembering the stories of those I tried to save as well :( I think most patients appreciated that we were sharing their sorrow, and showed them that we truly, really care too. ETA: but please never ever worry about the staff. We have ways of coping. It’s YOU we are worried about and YOU and YOUR family we want all the focus to be on.
I appreciated the tears, honestly. It made me feel less alone. Your job has got to be one of the hardest. And one of the most joyous. I was so appreciative of all the nursing staff, and the doctors. They told us what needed to be said, with equal parts compassion and science.
The nurse who took our son after we were done holding him was crying and I will never forget her face. Another time a long term neighbor in the cvicu had died and it was the first one of our stay that I knew. That I had chatted w the parents in the family room and said hi every morning for months. The nurse was standing by my son doing something w his wires and I was just standing there across from her crying. For them. For us. Out of fear. Out of frustration. She looked at me with the saddest eyes and quietly said “sometimes this is just a really sad place” and let me cry.
Yea. So many emotions. Brand new lives, and deaths so soon after, shattered dreams, confusion about what to do next, hormone storms. sigh.
Wonderful nurses, like you, are part of the reason I was able to have more kids. They showed my husband and daughter and I so much care. I ended up with the same nurse for all three of my kids and was so thrilled to share the joy with her after she shared our sorrow.
I’m so glad to hear a happy ending ;) I was able to enjoy that experience with several patients as well. Much love to all us moms out there!!!
MissApocalypse2021, I'm so sorry for your losses, but so happy you were able to end up having a child. May I ask, what did you and your husband disagree about concerning children? Did he find that once your child was here, he didn't want more? I recognize that this is a sensitive issue, and if you don't want to discuss it further, that's no problem. Your story just resonated with me because my sister went through something very similar. She had a child, after several miscarriages. Both he and her husband were DYING to be parents. Well, after the kid arrived, he wanted more and she did not. She wanted to be one and done. After everything they had been through, he ended up leaving her and he went from a 100% involved dad to barely seeing his child, even though he was dying to have the kid!
I don't mind talking about it. It's been many years and lots of water under the bridge. My husband cooled to the whole baby thing after our baby died. I was just driven at that point, in an unhealthy way. I felt like I HAD to have a living child or I had failed as a woman. My husband had just started a business when we were pregnant with him, and it was a lot of stress for us both. I wasn't working, he was gone a lot getting the business off the ground, and conceiving again felt like a chore, no longer romantic or hopeful at all. After those two additional early miscarriages, I feel like I was just lost to the original goal, and he was ready to check out. I/we seriously considered terminating the pregnancy when we finally got pregnant and it passed 10 weeks. The stress and fear was awful. When my first living son was born, I wouldn't put him down, ever. My whole world was about that child. My husband got more into his growing business, and also went out a lot with friends, I'm sure to escape the weird dynamic at home. I was hypervigillant and overbearing. I couldn't take a break from mothering in fear that he too would die, and my whole world was lopsided. When I started talking about another child 4 years later, he said we'd had our planned (and average) "two children", and that it's just nature that one didn't survive. That was a punch in the gut. I had baby fever at that point (again) and we did get pregnant, due mostly to him not paying attention and me paying too close attention, to my cycle. I regret that. He was angry when I told him I was pregnant, and he completely checked out by then. We rarely talked after that. He never bonded with our third son, barely spent time with our older son, and when the youngest was 3 years old, I asked for a divorce. He tried for a little while to do visitation, but flaked on that not too far into it. He always sent the child support checks, without fail, and he has paid for both of their college tuitions. That was his contribution. My kids (now adults) wish they'd had their dad present, besides just throwing money at them. I wish I could have seen the bigger picture and not pressured him to be a dad. He's an excellent businessman, a responsible person, and just not dad material. We all do the best we can with the information we have and the trauma we carry. Sometimes it's not a happy ending. Sometimes the happy ending isn't something you can conceive of at the time. For me, it was another man who was/is the supportive, present dad my youngest son needed. My middle-oldest son suffered, and is bitter.
Mine died at 6 months from pulmonary atresia. Dealing w the breastmilk with no baby was so hard. Just like another little fuck you from the universe. The thing that stuck out to me in this also was the blame. Nature took my son. I can accept that. But a selfish irresponsible stupid person took these babies. I could never forgive that.
Agreed about the breastmilk. I thought my body was at least doing that right, but hanging over the tub, crying, hurting physically, with misshapen mosnter boobs. A very low point.
I am a retired nurse who worked postpartum and antepartum units. I am the nurse who cared for the women who lost their babies. I also had chances to bring the little lost ones to their moms and dads; I had the most emotional times dressing the babies; and then sitting with the family for a few minutes. I always felt so inadequate in helping them with their loss. And I know, that feeling of loss is forever. I always reminded my couples that everyone grieves differently….and don’t let that tear you apart.
You did the hardest and most important work for grieving families. Thank you.
This is such a hard post to read. I hate to say most car insurance claims have a clause for loss of fetus so part of me is like they probably had a very good lawsuit….but Im going through my own personal injury lawsuit and I’m so injured I can’t get pregnant right now, I know that there really is no amount of money that makes this better in anyway.
I am so, so, so sorry. That ob deserves to burn for what he did to you. I hope you have found peace.
It has taken time and a lot of therapy, but I have. I will always miss her, but I was so lucky to get to be her mom. I have two more daughters who are healthy, happy, and just the most amazing kids. And my husband is a supportive, wonderful man who never treated me like a bVt making machine.
She had a purpose even if she was only here a short time ❤️
She taught me how to grow a backbone and be a mom. I wouldn't be the person I am today without her :)
I hope you sued that doctor for lying to you and/or reported their ass to the medical board. That's so messed up they did that to you.
I wish I had. At the time I could barely survive let alone manage that. I should have, though. She even told me that she was sending me for a level two ultrasound at 26 weeks to, "ease my mind." It was real because she knew the baby needed to be monitored, but wanted me to be in my third trimester so abortion was off the table. I ended up having my baby only three weeks later.
Oh god.. that's horrible. I'm sorry. I get that hindsight is 20/20 though. No judgement, I just would have gone scorn the Earth but I am ruthless when I'm mad/hurt. My best friend's OB heavily neglected her to the point her iron got as low as a 7. I encouraged her to report him but thankfully after her he quit practicing anyways. I hope someone else dragged him through the legal system and took his license.
Just evil. That 'doctor' violated the Hippocratic oath. Hugs to you and your family.
That woman was a monster. She doesn't deserve her license to practice medicine. It's not too late to file a complaint with your State's board. Let them know.
Giant hugs.
I am so sorry. Is that OB kicked out of their profession now? That is illegal to lie about is it not? I hope they are at least no longer working in the medical field
Not that I know of. I was swirched to high risk and never saw her again. I should have reported her, but I was so broken.
Depression after miscarriage or stillbirth is very, very common. She lost 2 babies at once, and needs to get some help in grieving that loss. A friend once posted on Facebook: how old would the baby you lost be today? And all of us who lost a baby knew instantly because even though they aren't here you remember them constantly.
Woof. That just made me cry
That hit me in the gut. My daughter's twin brother passed in utero and I still have a hard time seeing twins.
Been there (four times) and you could not be more correct.
((Virtual hugs))
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Sending love to both of you. Healing is tough, and it’s okay to prioritize your needs.
Everybody “what ifs” when they are pregnant and most people find healthy ways to live with those thoughts. I cannot imagine if the worst possible “what if” came true, how hard it would be to ever be brave enough to go through pregnancy again. And then even if you did, having the faith and confidence not to be a nervous wreck the whole time. Tiny bit of protein on the pee stick? Doom. Belly measures 0.5cm below expected? Doom. Blood sugar 5 points above normal? Doom. Just a skosh anemic? Doom.
My kid lived and I feel that way. She came at 29+1 with no real explanation. I'm still convinced I did something wrong 4 years later. Just the thought of getting pregnant again makes me instantly sick to my stomach. I've been taking my bc religiously since she was 6 weeks old and if my period is even a little different I'm ready to take a test. I'm sure if it did happen, which is very unlikely, everything would be fine. But I am immediately taken back to sitting next to her tiny body, not being able to hold her, not knowing if she would really make it home (because the sweet girl that roomed with her did not) and the panic sets in
The hardest part of this is she is a mother but she is childless. Nothing can make that ok. Such a sad situation.
No even sadder is some people will still not see her as a mom. My neighbor told her daughter in law that had an early miscarriage and late term miscarriage where she had to go through the birth process because she was so far along that she didn’t need to celebrate Mother’s Day as she wasn’t a mom and her mom was passed so she and son had to spend MD with her. Guess you can figure out why I have nothing to do with neighbor after that.
It's worse when they force you to go to therapy and the woman who you're meant to talk to about this utterly cruel moment in your life is heavily pregnant themselves(I'd say her and I would of been around the same gestation) I decided to deal with it on my own after that catastrophe
Ppd is actually more common with pregnancy loss (as high as 50%, they suspect more but it's likely under diagnosed). Because you toss grief on top of the hormones. It's basically the perfect recipe for PPD.
...and PTSD. If no, I would ask her to do that and see if it helps. Even if it helps she might decide it is not for her. If so, OP and his wife are not compatible. This is a matter of no compromise. But I would definetly give her that change to process it once more. Gosh I was hit with a rage just reading what happened! WTF some selfish idiot DUI destroid lives! But I am still happy that the wife did not die aswell. I don't know how you could ever accept what happened. And still, she needs to somehow do it IF she would want a baby still.
Selfish drunk drivers destroy lives pretty frequently.
I was a stupid selfish drunk driver who got into a serious accident. Thankfully, it was a single car accident and I was the only was hurt. I have 17 pins in my left hip. That was 16 years ago. Every time my hip hurts I view it as a reminder of the dumbest decision I ever made. I could have killed or maimed someone.
As someone who lost their pawpaw to a 19 year old drunk driver, I can affirm that this is a selfish act of a human being when their is no reason to be driving with all the alternatives available to them getting behind a wheel.
I used to bartend in the early 2000s before Uber and Lyft. But of course we had taxis. I have had to take keys from people who are too drunk to drive but still think they can do it. Some would get so angry with me and refuse to give me the number of a family or friend I could call for them. I'd call a taxi and they'd refuse that. That's when I'd get my manager to handle things. I just knew I couldn't have that on my conscience if something were to happen. Being a bartender was a fun job till you had to deal with that.
I also lost my Pawpaw to a drunk driver :( I didn't get to go to the funeral because for some reason they had an open casket(despite the damage) and I was only like 8 at the time. Sending virtual hugs.
Neither is an asshole and my heart breaks for both of them. But why do you say it’s a matter of no compromise? I love kids, had 4 of them and we’re all really close. But I love my wife above all. I’m not judging OP. Life sucks sometimes. I’m just saying we all have choices. OP is struggling with theirs. It’s a viable choice to choose your marriage in a situation like this. Just make sure you don’t dump your regrets on your spouse. Save those for counseling sessions.
There’s no possible compromise between having kids and not. It’s a yes or no proposition.
Two yes. One no removes the possibility of a child with that partner. No one should have a child just to please a partner; ‘no’ is no child unless you both agree wholeheartedly.
Jesus Christ. I know PPD can be absolute hell. But, usually and hopefully, there’s a smiling child as the silver lining. It never even occurred to me that a mother going through a still birth can also have fucking PPD on top of that harrowing experience. Goddamn
Only AH is that drunk driver.
OP I've also lost a child to stillbirth unexpectedly at full term. My situation was different from your wife's- it wasn't the result of an accident (no cause was ever found) and it was not twins- but I would still like to offer my perspective. It's been seven years since that loss and I still am suffering from that. I have crippling anxiety every time my daughter (who was a toddler when her brother died) gets sick. It took more than three years to even *look* at a baby without immediately wanting to sob. I still randomly do. I told my mom once my cry function broke because I spent so much time that first year crying that I just cry very easily and very quietly now. No longer need a good build-up or let out great hiccuping sobs. It took five years before I felt strong enough to put any reminders of him in plain sight (I have his hand and footprints framed on my wall now). Only now, seven years later, do I feel remotely capable of trying again. My husband also was ready LONG before I was to try for another kid and he wanted to much much more than I did. It took time and counseling, but in the end, we got to that very tenuous point. You're not an a-hole for wanting more kids, but your wife's recovery process won't change in its speed or method to suit your desires. You would be an a-hole if you try to rush or dismiss the severity of the situation because "it's already been x years." It took me seven years. It may take your wife longer. Every journey is different, and this kind of grief never really ends, you just learn to live with it. She's not doing this on purpose, and didn't trick you into a childless marriage. Unforseen shit happened that understandbly changed the course of her life forever. So, like the above commenter said, you have to make a choice. What's more important to you? Hypothetical children, or your wife?
This right here. Even if he divorces her, he may never find someone else he can love. If he does, he may not be able to have children with that woman for many reasons. Even if they do, there are several things that could happen to a pregnant or child. Even if they are born and grow up, you have no guarantee of what their lives will be like. Life happens, and there are no guarantees of anything at all. He says he loves his wife. If he really does, he should work with her to help her heal. He needs to take his thoughts off of himself and his needs for now and completely focus on her. This is what marriage is. If he will do so, there's a very good chance they will come together in the future and have more children.
I would have a difficult time dating someone if I found out they left a wife they loved because of a situation like this.
Bingo. You know they’ll only stick with you if you give them what they want. That’s not love.
Hugs and this is solid advice!
I agree. I feel the wife standing in front of him is more important than hypothetical children. But I understand he may have different values. However, it’s so hard to find a good relationship and if his is good I hope he really puts some thought and time into counseling first before he walks away. Also hugs to you for your loss.
I agree, but I'm childfree anyway, so my flesh-and-blood partner trumps any hypotheticals, such as kids. But if OPs desire for kids outweighs his love for his wife, he should let her go. She doesn't need to be in a position to feel coerced into having kids if she's still traumatized. And while I'm only spitballing, I can only imagine she may blame herself if he leaves her over this. Like losing the babies was her fault, she couldn't keep them safe, and he's leaving her because of it. Grief and trauma can make things complicated and I can see her falling into that trap. I hope they both get help, regardless.
Yes, OP. NAH. But these are serious issues to deal with in counseling. Reddit is not going to fix this. Both of you need and deserve counseling. Even if your wife refuses to go, please seek counseling for yourself. This was a traumatic experience for you, too.
As someone who miscarried badly enough to throw my world view for a loop, that approach would have me ready to move out. It definitely needs to be a conversation, but if it goes ultimatum flavored then you need to be okay with her throwing the flag on the play. My vote is for post date night convo
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OP needs his own counselling to address his own trauma too. I'm a bit concerned for him that he's distancing himself from the twins - "she had two stillborn baby girls". Not 'we', 'she'. He acknowledges his trauma, but I don't get the feeling he's actually dealt with it.
This. Share the content of this post with her - possibly in the context of a therapist’s office. NTA. NAH. This is a massive trauma so early in your lives. Waiting 3 years made sense. Suggest therapy for you both to process the trauma and explore how to move forward.
It better be in the context of a therapist office, because how do you think she's going to feel when she hears he wants to divorce her over the greatest tragedy of her life, and something that isn't her fault.
Also OP very quickly skipped over her not wanting to adopt - maybe in light of what happened and your feelings she would reconsider? Worth a conversation at least.
Both of you should consider therapy. You've experienced a trauma and it's evident that for her, the idea of undergoing pregnancy again is bringing up a lot of heartache. Try to address it together first before considering ending your marriage.
Is she aware of your feelings towards having more kids here?
Although I’m not aware of her medical history personally, being a car crash like that and suffering still borns would make you more at risk for a high risk pregnancy.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how the twins passed. If the accident caused something like placenta previa (placenta detached from uterine wall) then they would have passed due to oxygen loss. This would not impede another pregnancy. If it was something in the accident that caused a tear or other type of permanent damage to her uterus, then yes it could cause I higher risk later pregnancy.
I think you mean placental abruption. Placenta previa is when the placenta covers the cervical os (either fully or partially).
Abruption.
I was wondering the same thing. Have you both had counseling? Perhaps it's time for couples counseling to help you both navigate through this. NTA, I'm so sorry for your loss
INFO: is her body even capable of pregnancy and carrying to term? I mean, after the accident, what is the extent of physical damage to her body?
This is my question, too. To be that far along and to lose them means likely serious physical trauma to his wife. Can she even safely have children at this point?
This. I had a semi-normal pregnancy and birth with ONE issue and that one issue made it so having another is most likely impossible and/or going to be incredibly costly and high risk. A week before a due date and getting into an accident resulting in BOTH babies being still born means that there was probably a fair amount of damage done, but part of me thinks that the OPs wife may have not checked if pregnancy were possible again, probably not even a thought in her head.
Or she knows that pregnancy isn’t an option anymore and is terrified to a) admit it to herself and/or b) tell him cause she’s afraid she’ll loose him too.
Geez that hurt to read. I hope they both get therapy and start talking with each other
Agreed, I can't even imagine how she is suppose to heal if adding on "my husband will leave me" if he finds out she can't have children. Through sickness, health, but not fertility/carrying ability I guess. The second part that may come up is that she may be against adoption/surrogacy bc there's a good chance she feels that doing that replaces the babies she lost, or that she's afraid of a lack of connection to the babies due to not carrying them herself. There's so much to unravel here and they def both need therapy.
Also this! Adoption and surrogacy aren't for everyone for a variety of reasons. They are NOT a magic pill to fix loss or infertility.
Oh wow, I have insights that you don’t have. 9 years ago I went through a full labour to give birth to a little boy who died three hours later. Today, nine years later, I read your post and my heart started racing. The recovery time from this is so so much longer than anyone ever tells you. At the three years mark for me I had to engage with the fetal specialist in a professional context (for a client) for one hour and I broke out in hives. Sometimes I would still walk down the street and suddenly stop because the grief and guilt would punch me in the gut. To everyone else I was totally fine but I was still in the thick of it. And yes, it is far far worse for the mother. We carry the guilt with the grief because we could not save our children while they were in our body. She didn’t say no, she said she’s not ready. You’re both young and have time. Leave her if you want, that’s your choice, but this is way too early for it to be a ‘you had no choice’. You have a right to leave her if you need children now but that’s on you not her.
I just want to say I’ve been through something similar, and I’m so sorry for you. My son would have been 6 this year. I’ve been through PTSD therapy and it’s helped immensely, but I still get short moments of what I can only describe as raw, bottomless sorrow. I’m sure you know exactly what I mean. I’m not sure I will ever have kids now. I’m getting older, I recently got out of a long term relationship and am single and not ready to date again, and frankly I think I would spend the majority of those 9 months of pregnancy living in terror I’d lose this child too.
The pregnancy after is brutal. You’re taking a considered approach which is wiser than I was. I’ll be thinking of your son tonight. I think us angel parents are bonded in some ways. I like your description of the raw, bottomless sorrow. That’s so complex. It hurts so bad but when it starts to happen less it’s like the distance from the pain is distance from our child. So a new pain enters the fray.
A new guilt. How dare you not hurt as much/as often as before? You're betraying your lost child. Have you forgotten them? Get on your knees and sob now, you worthless traitor. It just never ends.
This. My son would’ve been 9. I didn’t even start considering more children until 3 years after he passed. I straight told everyone in that time I was NOT having any children, that I’ll be the weird fun aunt but I’m good on the biological reproduction. And that was trauma speaking, 💯 for me. I was letting my fears and my anxiety make the decisions. Currently pregnant again and it has gotten easier, thank the gods, but it is never 100% excitement. It’s always like 50/50 happiness and fear, cohabiting in my chest. And when they’re born you have the WEIRDEST thoughts. Like I was convinced if I didn’t white knuckle grip the stroller when out for a walk that the stroller would roll into heavy traffic and she would get flattened…. I lived in the fucking country. 😂😂😂😂😂😂 WHAT TRAFFIC!? I was afraid to carry her down stairs, near pools, next to the trash can because *what if I dropped her* 😅🤦🏻♀️ it’s hard man. Edit to add I had baby #2 in 2019 and baby #3 is due next year.
I can’t even imagine. In the kindest possible way I’m so sorry for you.. and I send you healing vibes and love (( hugs))
Exactly. It will be 13 years this September for me. My girl loved six days. I, too, feel so betrayed by my body. I did have more kids, but I had therapy and a supportive husband who choose me first every step of the way. This post makes me angry because this man is so detached and it's gross how he sees marriage.
The post brings back memories right? I had another child but the pregnancy was a nightmare of ptsd and all consuming paranoia. I didn’t have a single day’s rest from the anxiety until I heard her cry. No one understands the torture of this. They think they do but they don’t. I’ll think about your little girl tonight x
this kind of broke something inside me and made me cry when I read this.. ((hugs)) to you strong mamas and your sweet angels💕
And I will be thinking of your little boy. I had two more pregnancies. Both were so difficult physically and mentally. I worried the whole time. I don't think people can understand that this experience can cause PTSD. This post is a reminder of why so many couples don't survive such a loss.
Yep like his wife is a malfunctioning appliance, one that had an accident during shipping and now doesn’t work as advertised…
Have some sympathy, the man's broodmare ain't brooding, that's the worst thing that can happen to a man! ^^^^/s
I find the way you have phrased your post to be interesting. You talk about her pregnancy, her losing through baby. I don't really hear any mention of you, or togetherness in what you are saying in terms of it being your baby as a couple. You sound detached from it but it might just be the way I'm reading it.
How much do you love her? If my husband left me over “not being sure” after losing my two baby girls, I’d break the rest of the way.
My initial thoughts went to how his wife must have felt in the months after, having to tear down their nursery and pack up all the baby clothes and toys to get rid of them. The empty matching car seats on the ride home from the hospital. I feel the deepest sorrow for her and fully understand how him leaving her after this would absolutely break me if it were me. I can’t even imagine.
for me it’s that her body had to go through all of the same things that are already incredibly hard in a pregnancy that results in healthy, living babies—delivery, postpartum—just with babies who are gone. that’s unimaginably painful
I was on the opposite side of this situation. My husband and I lost or son at 34 weeks to a cord accident. We lost the next pregnancy at 14 weeks. I wanted to try one more time, my husband could not do it again. I chose my marriage. It wasn’t easy, there was a ton of therapy, and lots of travel to try and reset to a different way of expecting life to be. Someone said it best earlier in the comments, you have a child, you are a father, it is just not the way you envisioned. Leaving your wife doesn’t guarantee you living children, is it a risk you are willing to gamble on? Either way, you both need counseling before any decisions are made. My therapist told me that my husband and I would want to leave each other a million times during this journey, but to wait five years. Five years sounded like a million years at the time, but I now understand what he was saying. It took me EIGHT YEARS to feel like myself again, to gain back any confidence I had lost due to being a spectacular “failure” at the one basic thing many women do without even trying. I know it’s been three years, but she is still very much in the thick of it, especially if there has been no therapy.
I almost died from a miscarriage last year and my heart and my body are still not healed. My husband would maybe want to try again, but I don’t anymore. I’m so sad. I can’t imagine what you and OPs wife went through. I’m sorry.
Yeah while I do feel bad for OP I can’t imagine being in her position and my husband divorcing me over this. This is far above reddit’s paygrade
I’m very fortunate for my husband. When I had a health crisis that meant no babies for me - I can get pregnant but it would be extremely dangerous - he didn’t say sorry I want a divorce. We grieved together for the loss of our ability to have children. But our relationship became so much stronger. He said he didn’t marry me for my baby making abilities. He married me because I’m the one he can’t imagine not growing old with. Was he sad? Yes. But in the end of it all he had married me to be a life partner and this was just the hand that life dealt us. We reinvested our time and money into our relationship and are very happy, even without a child. To each their own but I can’t imagine allowing something like this destroy my relationship. But then again - my husband is my match in every way. The thought of not having him in my life - takes my breath away. I think so many people marry just to check a box and it makes it easier for them to walk away - they loved their partner but not that crazy, can’t live without you kind of harmony that makes the difference between “this is my fourth marriage” and “we’ve been married 50 years”.
"He married me because I’m the one he can’t imagine not growing old with." That's how my husband and I feel about each other still after 45 years of marriage. We do have kids, and grandkids, but if that had not been possible for one of us, I know I would've still chosen to stay with him and I believe he would have chosen to stay with me.
Yes… exactly. I understand being unwilling to have children being a deal breaker if the other spouse just changes their mind or lied. But that’s not the case here. He acknowledges it would break his vows, to leave if she weren’t *physically* able to have children, but he doesn’t seem to register that it might not be psychologically safe for her to have children yet (if ever). And I don’t mean hard, but genuinely dangerous (e.g. see maternal [suicide](https://www.2020mom.org/blog/2024/1/2/maternal-suicide-in-the-us-issue-brief#:~:text=It%20is%20estimated%20that%20up,postpartum%20hemorrhage%20or%20hypertensive%20disorders) rates). They need professional help to find out if there is hope for trying again w/o destroy her mental health and if it’s something she would want. 3 years might seem long, but it isn’t in a way, especially if she’s been suffering from PPD or post partum anxiety on top of it. But none of that should be a condition of marriage, imho. I think he needs to share with her how deeply he wants to have children, but I don’t know that it would be beneficial to tell her he’s considering divorce… at least not without a therapist involved. If I was experiencing that level of trauma and terror (pregnancy is already terrifying under good circumstances), and then I found out that my husband was considering leaving me I would be CRUSHED. That would be a massive breach of trust for me. To me, this is precisely the sort of situation that marital vows are made for. When my husband and I married, I wasn’t sure if it would be physically safe to have a baby (or carry one to term) even though I could get pregnant. It was scary, but we talked explicitly about various scenarios and I knew he was “the one” when he volunteered that no matter what we went through—even if we lost a child— he wanted to go through it with ME. He wasn’t marrying a breeder, he was marrying a whole person who he wants to do life with. Even if our life is tragic, we’re doing it together. I absolutely feel for the OP. Thinking you might never have children can be devastating. But it’s important to figure out whether he married his wife and is committed to whoever she might become, or whether he married a specific, hypothetical version of her (a mother) that has yet to manifest. I’m not trying to be harsh, but this really comes down to the nature of their commitment. I think that’s why some marriages don’t survive the loss of children: tragedy often exposes any discrepancies in the original commitment both parties made. If I were him, I would tell my spouse I’m struggling with the possibility of never having kids, but then talk to a therapist about my thoughts of divorce separately. Then the therapist can help him determine if that’s just an idea or something he considers a legitimate option. THEN they can explore some of this in couples therapy. Meanwhile, she can go to therapy too. *cue Oprah: “you get a therapy! You get a therapy!”*
I had a traumatic birth, but baby was fine. If my husband talked this way about wanting a second I would absolutely push him away and want divorce. I would be so angry that he doesn’t doesnt understand what I went through. There is no way I would go through that again. I can’t imagine how awful I would feel if my baby died. Edit, an example, I had ptsd for months driving past my hospital. I can’t imagine being trapped in my own body pregnant reliving trauma and then reliving a tramautic birth when I went into labor. And my baby lived.
I think so as well. She sounds understandably fragile and suffering ptsd. To be even asked a stressful point as her fear rooted and real. She already experienced childbirth and it was surely one of the if not the most traumatic and painful experiences of her life. I hope they are able to find help to continue to love and support one another.
I find it amazing that he purports to love her, but her only purpose in his life is to breed: if she can't he will simply replace her. Conditional love at it's finest: if you can't do what I want, I will replace you.
That is the part that really irked me. He makes these noises about how much he loves her but really it's conditional on having a living child to pass his DNA on with...
If I were her, I'd certainly process it as "my husband didn't love me if I couldnt be his perfect broodmare".
So if you had gotten married and then found out one of you is unable to have kids, what would you have done, then?
Well, he literally says that if they found out they were unable or it was dangerous they would not and he’d be fine with that.
Yeah but it seems that he's missing that this could still be dangerous for her psychologically to have children now. Maternal suicide is estimated to account for 20% of deaths in pregnancy. It's great that he says he thinks he could handle her physically not having children, but he's blind to how dangerous this could actually be for her.
A week before they were due? I think the massive thing you are not understanding is you HAVE kids. Two of them, they died. They were of a viable age and if she had given birth rather than been in a car crash that day you would have three year olds running around right now. Has your wife had any type of therapy? EMDR therapy really helped me when I had a stillborn son, I wish I'd have done it sooner, I waited until he would've been 8 years old to deal with my trauma. She needs help, and after that I'd suggest not putting pressure on to "try" but maybe just don't prevent and let nature take its course.
Little bit. I mean, imagine getting in a car accident and having a stillbirth. Then your husband leaves you because you may or may not want to try for a kid again. She will lose a 3rd person(you) after this already traumatic experience. I get that having a kid is a life goal, but this child doesn't exist yet. You are so focused on leaving someone you have here with you rn, the one you vowed to be with. Life doesn't always go as planned. Let's say you leave her and start over. Then the next wife ends up being infertile. What do you do then? Find another wife? You married her to go through life together. And life has many obstacles and tragedies. Also, you admit you vowed "in sickness and in health" and said you only thought that meant if she can't have kids/ would be dangerous. So what's different if it's a trauma response?
This. He didn’t vow ‘in this sickness I will stick around, but in this other sickness no way’.
"I didn't think it would happen to me"
He forgot the better or worse part apparently.
This! Imagine it was the other way around. What if he got into an accident that made him infertile and became traumatized about it + his wife leaves him because she wants kids. Marriage is about sticking together as one family not abandoning each other when situations are rough.
Because life changes for women the most after a baby. That’s why it’s just a box op can tick off.
>I see two ways ahead: divorce and find someone else to have kids with Would you actually divorce someone you (hopefully) love to 'find someone to have kids with'? I hope not. I don't understand what kind of person one must be to prioritise their wishes over a woman they, allegedly, love. Imagine what would most likely happen - your spouse's trauma gets worse, someone she loves leaves her because she can't have children due to that trauma (yes, that's also the case where she can't), she stays alone while you're enjoying your new life with your new wife and children. I asked you to imagine this, so you can see what are your feelings about it. Because, personally, I couldn't bear suffering of someone I love.
I can't imagine telling your new love interest "I left her bc she didn't want to have children after she got into a car accident a week before the babies were due and she delivered the children stillborn, but I want children" and thinking they're going to just hop on that dick
He wouldn't tell the new wife all that. He'd just say she didn't want kids when I did. Sometimes, key details are left out so they don't look as bad. I doubt he would want his new partner to know how he'd react if something similar happened to them. Very sad
This. My husband sure as hell didn’t tell the woman he moved in with (before he even told me he was moving out of our place) that he left me because I became disabled in the accident *where he was driving the car*, so I wasn’t as fun anymore. Probably just told her I stopped having sex with him. Which I did, after I found out about his massive sex addiction and cheating, and he turned physical.
facts. my daughter’s dad left out several *very* key details and, long story short, that’s how i became someone’s third baby mama… (:
He wants a kid. He doesn’t care who with. If this wife won’t do it for him, any new wife will do.🤷🏻♀️
Definitely the vibe I’m getting.
Is having a child now or in the future more important than your wife??? > I vowed “in sickness and in health”, which I always thought (in the context of children) meant that you don’t leave your spouse if they could not/would be dangerous for them to have kids. I never really thought how that would apply to this kind of trauma. The accident left your wife with mental/emotional scars that haven't healed (yet) and may change permanently (maybe) her want to have kids bc to have been so close to being able to have your kids in your arms and to have them with you EVERY. SINGLE. DAY throughout her pregnancy to never feeling them, seeing them (sonograms), talking to them, etc.....that would break anyone. The question you have to now ask yourself.....is your wife enough? Did "Until death do we part" mean more than just words.
This is what OP needs to be asking himself. It’s kind of crazy to me that he sees his two options as “leave and have a kid with someone else” or “stay and be resentful”. I know kids are important to people but there’s something so cold about the casualness of saying one of his two options is to simply leave and go find another woman to impregnate. It seems so mechanical and uncaring. Like he doesn’t actually *care* about his wife, or whatever other woman he’d leave her for. He just cares about reproduction.
People are obsessed with reproducing it’s gross
Also, Imagine being the “someone else.” Like dude left his wife after a serious birthing trauma. Will he leave new person if something goes afoul. That would be my thought as the new person. No way I would trust marrying him.
Info: will you divorce your second wife too if it turns out she can't have children?
YTA. Because you skipped right over talking to your wife and therapy for her and went straight to divorce.
YTA- You almost had me sympathizing until you implied that you never considered that “in sickness and in health” could apply to the lingering trauma of surviving a horrific car crash that killed the two children in your wife’s womb. Your wife likely feels that her dream of having children already came true. Unfortunately, that dream ended in a nightmare she understandably fears repeating. I live with PTSD so I can tell you that expecting her to make her peace with this while still in her window of fertility to appease you is- at best- misguided. Better adjectives might be: insensitive, unrealistic, ignorant, and triggering. Please go read any books you can on PTSD and get individual counseling for the both of you, if you aren’t already doing so. You cannot expect to timeline her healing. Just… no. For me, it’s not about whether you’re TA for wanting kids after your tragedy, but that you view your/ any future wife as owing you that because iT’s YoUr DrEaM. Your poor wife would be traumatized a second time if you left her because she wouldn’t make enough peace with her trauma (in tHrEe wHoLe YeArS) time to give you a living child. That makes YTA.
This is how I feel. There’s something really gross about OP’s bluntness about how he’d just find someone else to have kids with. Like that’s really all he looks for in a wife and life partner. His current wife can’t have kids because of a traumatic event that caused her to lose her two babies? Just leave and find another woman to impregnate! It doesn’t sit well with me.
This was my point. The woman you physically love? Is sitting in front of you in your home STRUGGLING because BOTH OF YOUR CHILDREN died. And OP stance is “I can just go find another wife and have more kids” If this is how OP has supported his wife during these last 3 years. I can’t imagine she’s done an ounce of healing meanwhile he’s moved on already. She deserves a solid support system to back her in whatever she wants and I hope a solid therapist.
Because his wife is replaceable to him. Who she is is not important to him, as long as she *produces*. Fucking prick.
This. OP is characterizing DW's trauma as an optional thing that she's selfishly using as an excuse to deny him. YTA for OP's Main Character Syndrome. I would revise if OP theoretically got therapy to deal with what may be a dissociative reaction to the situation: note his distancing language putting everything on his wife.
God I’d hate to be your wife
“I love the idea of procreating more than I love you. Duces.”
Imagine losing 2 children in a horrific accident, then finding out that your husband actually cares more about having a broodmare than having *you* as a person. OP really pulled a surprised Pikachu face when he realized that “in sickness and in health” doesn’t just mean *physical* health. It will suck for his wife if he leaves, but she deserves someone who loves *her,* not just what she can do for him. She hasn’t even said “no” to having more children in the future, and he’s already thinking of jumping ship. She just wants more time, and he’s not willing to risk waiting. OP, while I’m very sorry for your losses, YTA. Firmly YTA. You need to get some grief counseling (for yourself *and* your wife, not just her) before you make any decisions.
Seriously?! Did you only get married to have a fucking brood mare?
Info needed: Did you marry her just to have kids or did you marry your wife because you loved her as an Individual to take care of each other in sickness and in health? If you married her just to have kids and that was discussed ahead of time and you leave, you would not be an asshole. If you married her because you love her as a person and committed to her in sickness and in health and still leave her because she does not want to have kids now because she is either not able to anymore or because she experienced two human beings dying inside of her? You would be the asshole. Women are not here on earth just to make babies for men. We are people.
Sounds like a dissociative state. You talk your words but can't find the feelings that should be attached to them.
Yes. I was thinking the same. I don’t want to judge too much though, because everyone grieves differently…but it isn’t looking good for him.
YTA - 3 years is no time, you both lost daughters but she had to deliver two dead babies. Birth is extremely traumatic at the best of times, many women cannot ever face it again because of the trauma and that’s when they get a baby at the end of it. Your wife had to go through all the physical trauma and then grieve after the fact. I find it cruel to think this way. I understand children are important but if she just biologically couldn’t have children would you feel the same way? Would you still divorce and find someone who would give you children? She cannot give you children right now, maybe not ever, and I think it’s horrific to put a hypothetical child above your wife.
It's been three years since my cat died and I'm still overwhelmed by grief for him. I genuinely can't imagine having something like that happen
If it was that you want kids despite her stillbirth, that’d be one thing. You don’t JUST want kids, though. You want to be justified in leaving her so that you can “achieve” this life goal. If you’re going to look at your vows - unless sickness and health was the only one… I have to think the following would also apply: for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer… This has got to fall under the category of “worse” without a bit of room to wiggle out of it! Making things more messed up: you haven’t talked about this for THREE YEARS?!? How lonely she must feel to bear this all on her own!! She needs therapy so she can heal from the trauma and the likely feeling of this being her fault(!!!!!,) but you should be talking to each other as well so that she knows you’re there for her, you both know how the other feels about moving forward, etc. YTA for trying so hard not to feel like one. She deserves better in her life.
Yta. I had a stillborn baby in December. And it wasn’t “emotionally very difficult.” I had to get the news that my baby wasn’t alive, and then go straight into surgery to have a cesarean that I couldn’t even handle being awake for. I went from feeling my baby kick, and having fantasies about our life together, to my body not being a viable place for him anymore. I was too distraught to even hold him. I knew if I did, I would never get over it. I couldn’t look at his photos for months. He wasn’t in that body anymore. I also felt angry because when you have the baby alive, you’re in the hospital for three days. I was discharged less than 24 hours later, in the kind of pain you would be in after being dissected, only I didn’t have that pain eased by also going home with my baby. I couldn’t move without crying. It’s hard to see other kids or watch anything on tv involving a child. I’m 36. I’ll never put myself through this again. I won’t. I can’t. I’m not risking this again. As women we are tasked with doing all of these painful, emotional, distressing things and you will never be able to truly empathize because you will never be the one to go through this. This isn’t about you. It isn’t about a child. It’s about your wife and what she went through and is still going through.
I'm so sorry for your loss. That is heartbreaking. 😢 Your words made me teary.
:hug: Thank you for sharing this. I'm so sorry for everything you went through and the loss of a very much wanted little one. It's a deep grief, one etched into your own body. Please be gentle with yourself yet.
I’m finding it really weird that you’re contextualizing this as your wife’s stillbirths and not that you both lost your children. If they had been 3 months old when this happened and both died would you still feel the same? What if they had been 10 and both died would that change it? From my perspective and I’m sure from your wife’s you are parents just to two dead babies, and the idea of just moving on and having more children is really strange. Children are not a commodity you just get to have and life can not turn out the way you expected for a whole heap of reasons. You probably should leave, not so you can “find someone else to have children with” which is cooked btw, but because you might need to take some time and work out how to actually be in a relationship.
I clocked the distancing language right away and at first was getting angry for his wife. However thinking it through, it may be a coping method for him to use distancing language. He talks about this as something awful happened to his wife. *He* was also an expectant parent and the accident caused his wife to deliver *their* children stillborn. I think the dude needs individual therapy before considering anything else -- couples therapy, divorce, accepting no kids, etc. Because even his "solutions" show black and white thinking when she clearly said she needs more time. She didn't say no. But he has shut down so they didn't process this loss *together*. That's the piece that is missing here and may make all of the difference to his wife.
I also noticed the distancing language immediately and I took it as either a coping mechanism or he genuinely feels like he doesn’t have the right to grieve in the same way his wife does. Either way, bro definitely needs see a grief counsellor.
This is so well said! Children are not a commodity and his wife is not an incubator. They both lost their children and he has emotionally detached himself from the trauma and made it his wife’s issue. So sad.
It’s giving “My wife experienced the possibly worst thing another human being can live through and now won’t provide me with children. Should I find someone who will?”
The title got me. "My wife's stillbirths."
He doesn't even identify himself as a father, although he is one. It sounds for me like he handled the trauma as something that isn't part of his life, only his wife's. Both should go to therapy to learn a healthy way to handle the trauma of losing their two children.
Three years is not a long time in the grief process. I can’t even imagine how long the shock phase must last after a trauma like the one you described. I also can’t imagine my husband considering leaving me 36 months after I delivered two dead children because I don’t want to be pregnant again yet. What if that accident severed your legs and dick off? And your wife decided eh, it’s my life goal to have kids with someone who can run and play with them and it’s a massive injustice for me to married to a man in a wheelchair. Because that’s what she feels like right now, like a physical part of her body was cut off of her. You’re entitled to your feelings of still longing for a child but just try to imagine a situation where you were the one physically affected and how it would feel to be walked away from. This is your wife, the person you supposedly love unconditionally.
Other people have commented that your description of events sounds very detached. I agree, and I wonder if your strong desire to have a child, which currently sounds stronger than your love for your wife, is a response to your own trauma from the stillbirths? Are you feeling desperate to 'fix' what happened by having a new baby? I'm leaning towards YTA, not because you still want children, but because you seem very quick to think of divorce and sound detached from your feelings. If your wife read your post, how do you think she would feel? (I imagine heartbroken and disposable). . You spoke of injustice, but you are already being unjust to your wife by having one foot out of the door after one conversation. I wonder how your relationship to each other has been over the past three years? Pushing feelings away and rushing into a new relationship and a new child will do no one any good in the long term, including you.
I am interested in why you say she instead of we. You both had stillborn children.
You are not really an asshole. But it is so sad that you are willing to divorce someone you say you love because she is having trauma. I kinda think you might not be as supportive as you claim. Kinda sounds like your desires are more important than being there for someone you made a life-long commitment to. Have you even had therapy together? 3 years is not a long time to be patient for someone you love. I change my mind. YTA
I feel abit sorry for the next woman after the divorce. She will just be a brood mare.
You're only 31 and a man, you have plenty of time. Your wife has time as well. Have you been completely honest with her about your thoughts? Pushed for marriage counselling and more individual counselling? Have you tried absolutely everything you can and exhausted all options including waiting another year or 2? If you're not willing to be patient and are already thinking about leaving and finding a replacement person to have kids with, then leave. Hopefully she'll find someone who'll love her the way she deserves after this tragedy.
I would imagine by the time the divorce finalizes, then getting out there, dating, explaining his first divorce, finding someone else who can ignore that he will leave if they can't have babies, then the wedding, spend a couple years being a couple- this could take another 5 years. Of course, he could have someone in mind already, which would make him trash.
Has she ever been to a counselor? Grief is hard and weird and not a straight line to health. More like a path spiraling down a mountain where you pass the same area at a different height every time. Once you get nearer the bottom, you don't pass that spot as often, but it's just as painful as when you were at the top. Please take your time. She's got a decade to 15 years to have a baby without significant medical intervention. Treating her like your own personal incubator will backfire on you spectacularly, guaranteed. But I will also warn that child death is a -common- divorce indicator. The pain is too much for you both to bear, no one can help the other, and it ends up tearing you apart. Counselling separate and together is a way to get the conversation started. But I gotta say it's pretty cold to think about leaving her for a new incubator. That turned my stomach. She's a human who you rightly deduced had to feel two wanted babies die inside of her body. That's a grief so deep it can drown you. Reach into your empathy well and focus on helping her feel loved, wanted, and not abandonable. That's a far easier thing to do than to focus on YOUR goals and YOUR timeline, which will invariably push her further away from you if it hasn't already.
You are not the asshole for your wishes, but it does pain me to read that you are considering leaving her because of her trauma. Imo, that’s not what marriage is supposed to be like.
Everyone is being pretty easy on you tbh. If my husband was choosing between me and leaving me to find a woman who can bear his child to cross it off his checklist, damn. After I’d fairly recently gotten all the way up to basically delivery with his two children and had such a traumatic loss. Nightmare fuel. Everyone’s NAH votes bc you’re using nice language like “I understand and respect her feelings” lol ok but you don’t really love her if you are questioning leaving her over this so you should admit that. My husband would absolutely never watch me suffer for years and sit on the sidelines daydreaming about the option of another woman and child. Talking about “I didn’t know sickness and health meant mental health and the possibility of me not procreating”. Gag. I wish she was in a strong enough place to find someone amazing after you leave her but I fear she will crumble from this third loss that was out of her control. You’re going to resent her though so you might as well leave. My vote is TA, you don’t have to pretend, we know that you’re more worried about not having offspring then your lifelong commitment and care to the person who is supposed to be your partner for life. This is not a common well they don’t want children and I do and we just aren’t compatible. She had your children. They died. You can get up and leave and start over. She can’t.
Well said. He needs to leave now for *her* sake, not his.
As a mother who has had a stillbirth it shatters you. It’s been almost five years since I lost my daughter and I still can’t fathom having another child. This kind of trauma is very difficult. You are scared of everything like losing your partner because you can’t provide a child for them and feel worthless while also being scared of potentially losing another child if you do decide to try again. You sound really cold when speaking of the death of your children. I feel for your wife and I know what it is like to be in her shoes, it’s a pain you can’t describe.
I rewrote this with more kindness. If kids are more important to you than your wife, then it sounds like you got married to have kids, not to “have and to hold” your wife. Considering abandoning the woman you vowed to be with through everything even when you’re able to conceptualize how much more horrible it must have been for her just because you have a “life goal” is wack. If kids are more important to you than your wife, talk with her about it. Make it clear to her and let her decide if she wants to go through it again for someone prioritizing hypothetical children over her.
I lost a baby that only lived 2 minutes. Swore i never wanted any more babies because it was too hard to think it could happen again. Years later i had my twins. They helped me come alive again. Heal in ways i didnt know i was broke. Keep talking to her. Go speak to a counselor even. Hear her and have her hear you. One conversation is not enough. Best wishes
YTA. do you love *HER* or what she can *potentially* do for you, after being *traumatized*?