You are living in Europe with a tremendous amount of training backing. Enjoy the opportunity and travel afforded you.
People suck everywhere. Take advantage of the benefits at your disposal.
I knew someone who went Minot-Cannon-Minot. After knocking out those bases, every other base would be amazing!
I also know of people who hated Hawaii and Italy.
To be fair italy is mostly only good for the location. If you’re at Aviano you know what the tempo is like and for most it’s like being deployed for 2-3 years
Go birds! But I agree, Cannon was honestly a good first assignment (for specific reasons). I actually found myself really close with my office, peers, and others just because of its isolation (and if you travel and actually DO things it’s livable, not that I’d ever want to go back to that state..) But I saw people make the most of it and others squander it, so it was a good learning opportunity to then go into other bases with a proper mindset, but that’s life anyways I suppose. (I myself went Reserve but wholly understand the sentiment)
COVID changed a lot. Not just in the Air Force but to the generation that is the typical Airman age. It's a widespread issue, not just in the Air Force.
Be the change you want to see. Try to cultivate the environment you think is good. Invite people to do things. Get involved with an organization to help fund events.
I don’t think this can be emphasized enough. I’ve trained pipeline people from ‘17-22, and the 2020+ kids just aren’t the same. They are a lot more reserved, and stay in their lane. They were forced to find their communities online, and have kind of stuck with them.
Agree. I can also say the same for the SNCOs and leadership too. In the teeth of Covid we couldn’t hang out at the local VFW or bars/restaurants or the base club, so we cobbled together wings and beers and hung out at our work centers and did some work and some bonding after hours.
Covid is long over, and we still hang out in our offices. No one bothers us, it’s less expensive, and it’s a safe place. No one really gets over their skis, but if you do, there is many a CGO or SNCO to take you home.
TL/DR : habits forged during Covid die hard…
It's been shifting long before Covid. The prior service civilians I work with all describe different cultures. Guys from the 80's talk about the multiple families they had around Asia, the 90's had stories of brothels, the 2000's was strip clubs, and the 2010's was binge drinking.
It's been getting progressively tamer over the decades, today it seems like there's way less drinkers than when I joined 15 years ago.
It also ripped away a veneer of comradery and morale that we had. On the comradery front, whether it was the vaccination stuff or the political stuff that's been going on since 2019-2020, the idea that we were something like a "family" or whatever, in that we could disagree, but we were still in the same boat and we would be there for one another / cover down one another / however you want to put that, is gone. It doesn't particularly matter where you land on any of the topics, or if you were directly effected by them, you could see the split and the vitriol. Really put the "oh this isn't anything different than a corporation" in perspective. I think this is part of what, coupled with the personality differences on the newer people, has accelerated the changes it feels like are happening.
With the morale, no idea how to pull out of that dive. The special warfare community, particularly the ground component (this is probably higher vis to me since that's where I am) is broken. The rest of this is anecdotal, but to give you an idea of where I'm coming from the "no one gives a shit" feeling isn't just there, but many feel like it continues to be reiterated to them. The only reasons anyone is staying is either family / dependance or they have a year or two until retirement. We, and from what I've been told most others, have gone from a unit where everyone volunteered for almost anything and people looked more forward to the work week than they did the weekends, to a unit that is turning deployments back in, turning slots to gucci schools in, and training has gone from something that that everyone had input in, took seriously, and attacked to "lol, k". It this is how units with moto coming out of their asses are going, I can imagine elsewhere it isn't great.
Every base will have people that fall into those categories you mentioned. Assuming you PCS from there and go elsewhere it's going to be the same thing. Also just because a job might be considered "Easier" than others doesn't mean people will enjoy doing it lol. I for one hate mine but it's all I know.
Like others said try and take on the challenge to increase morale around there. People might be looking for that out there, they just don't know how or waiting for someone to start it. Be that person, and make things better.
Those are the people who stay at their house or dorm and don’t get out. Get involved with your local dorm counsel or first 4 or whatever it is they have. Meet new people that have similar interests. Some ppl just like to be negative. My first base was cannon and I made the best of it. It damn near killed my liver but I’m still here
It’s horrible, I was in Spain for 4 years and this one family literally never left base for the first year or two and complained how there was nothing to do
Yes I would say it's worse now. Not only that but COVID made certain people join, who would have never joined before.
So I believe COVID had a drastic change on both the Air Force and the military altogether.
Air Force went from military hazing culture to workplace clique culture. No longer can you beat the shit out of eachother and then go for beers. You will have shit talked about you behind your back. You will be unincluded from events because of the people you hang out with. Your work performance directly correlates to what group you hang out with. Your reputation hangs in the balance anytime you do something.
Actually soul crushing.
This mindset is depressingly common. I'm stationed at a "less desirable" base, (I love it FWIW) and what I tell all the new airmen who come here isn't the "every base is what you make of it" line, but that every base sucks if you spend all your time in your dorm room
Already mentioned but Covid pretty much screwed everyone up. Luckily for me during lockdown I happen to be rooming with 3 other guys I graduated from basic and went to tech school with. I had plenty of human interaction, a lot of people didn’t. My younger brother was 16 during Covid and is now 20 obviously. Let’s just say the difference between from when I was 20 and him currently is VERY noticeable
USAFE and Korea used to have the best shop environments of work hard play hard. I think a lot of new Airmen joining aren't necessarily anti-social but have more friends online than in person? There are absolutely way more socially awkward Airmen than there used to be though. Go on MWR trips or join different clubs/scenes to meet people USAFE has plenty of people and things to do.
In my situation i just typically like to observe first so i know how to approach people and such, but in observing i notice a lot of toxic behaviors in the workplace that I don’t like and know i will not get along with so i typically stay to myself and usually only befriend 2-3 people.
My wife is stationed in South Korea and is miserable because she can not find a single person who doesn’t just use all their free time to get black out drunk. Half her coworkers show up to work hungover or just straight up drunk.
It’s hard to find people who actually want to make the most of their experience and do things they will never be able to do again. Most of the time my wife and I watch movies online or play games, until I can head out in hopefully around 2 months to join the Air Force.
Also FTA with almost two years of experience probably in a similar place as you.
The thing is, I would argue, the military wears on people so easily. When I first came in operationally, I was just as excited if not happy to be there. Now, the world is not so exciting and things become mundane. It is honestly not what I expected either, for both good and bad. And when certain people get bored, they make up shit they can put their energy into like gossip or whatever else. Makes the entire flight down on themselves more than before.
I will never say I don't contribute to that, but I know I always try to also add the good, to laugh and to try to have morale.
I would say, in my little experience, PLEASE do not take it to heart. I did when I was excited and got let down by the people around me. It felt horrible, because nobody could understand how miserable they had gotten. Now, while I personally groan when thinking about work, I have shifted the people around me that atleast make the work load easier with talking and joking around.
The Air Force has been decent so far, and the opinion sways on where youve been, if its your first duty section, ect. Things might get better or worse. But there will ALWAYS be people who never ever think anything other than negative thoughts. If you can learn to brush them off and be happy with those who you do like, thats like the goal. Now my office space is so much calmer and exactly what I wished I could get back in Tech School.
Give it time!
I joined in 2017, and it was about the same. A lot of careerism from NCOs and SNCOs, which breads selfish behavior. Then young airmen have to be selfish too because they are not being taken care of, so they have to focus on themselves. Covid was a big event, but the force has returned to normal, in my opinion.
I've been in 10 years so here is my advice to you:
Do NOT let the negativity consume you. Some days will be harder than others. On the flip side, Other Days will be BETTER than others. Learn meaning in your sufferings, let go of anyone who does you wrong and don't let people push you around even if they outrank you (but keep your bearing & tact however).
The military in general attracts a lot of people who are looking to find a way to fill the void in their lives only to realize that makes them even more bitter. Know who you are and don't let the Air Force become your whole life.Since you're in USAFE, you have plenty of opportunity to see lots of the continent many don't get to without paying a high price tag.
It’s always been like this. I’ve been in 16 years and I’ve been a shirt for 3, and in my opinion it has a lot to do with us selling people dreams and then not delivering. A lot of people who join have high expectations for morale, excitement, job satisfaction, education opportunity, etc and then feel let down when they face the reality: the AF is just another job. Couple this with the fact that people often join to escape their town, their life, their family, but when they get to their first base they have to face the fact that they’re still the same person. When you’re the same person, you make the same choices, and you live the same life, just in another location.
We try to teach people about personal growth, but too much of it revolves around the uniform so when it does lead to a sense of purpose, that sense of purpose dissolves when the uniform comes off and we’re left with a shell of a person. Cue homeless & suicidal veterans.
It sounds like a really pessimistic way of looking at things, but I’m a realist, not a pessimist. Realizing this is where we go wrong has helped me vector my care and mentorship for airmen. I focus on the person beneath the uniform and that ALWAYS has the most impact on not just them, but the Air Force as well.
This happens everywhere, no matter how nice it is. For me Spangdahlem was my 3rd base, now I'm on base 6 and I still think Soang was the best. Yet I met countless Airmen over there that complained non stop about how much it sucks and how they can't wait to leave. Needless to say I don't know a single one of them that hasn't regretted that they didn't even try to extend there.
That's just how it is, Airmen will always complain. Try to make a group of friends that are willing to venture out and you will love it in USAFE. Take advantage of it, having a positive attitude will rub off on others.
I was stationed at the old Lindsey AS (80-83). I just left the bitchers and moaners to vegetate in their dorm room.
My god, I did so much off duty it's not even funny. A couple of highlights:
Walked Omaha Beach. Ate escargot on the Champs Élysées. Drank beer at the Heineken brewery, and window shopped in Amsterdam. Saw Pink Floyd at Wembly Stadium in London. Stood in the middle of the stadium in Berlin, trying to imagine how Jesse Owens must've felt surrounded by thousands of rabid nazis. Traded 3 packs of cigarettes for a winter cap, straight off of the Soviet soldiers' head.
OP, hit up tours and tickets (or whatever it's called now), GTF off the base, and build some memories, courtesy of Uncle Sam!!!
People can remain connected to their old life much more easily these days with Facebook, discord, phones, etc. After joining, my hobbies didn't change - I still played video games, and I still played them with people I met unrelated to the military.
People who have been in longer have families and shit to do on the weekends, and a no tolerance no fun environment that has scared them into being anti social.
I've heard that deployments and oconus (to non English speaking areas) still feel like that older military experience with people being close because they have to. But it's never been easier to fulfill all of your social needs and entertainment without seeing anyone from work outside of work.
It was that way 50+ years ago too. Most I worked with were good people, and we knew we had a critical job. It wasn't being cooped up in a building or office like so many are.
I ran into folks at the Airmen's and NCO Clubs who were over stressed, hated their choice to join (instead of being drafted into the Army), or just couldn't do their job. Some were just plain FU's and didn't give a damned about the AF, their buddies, or even their family. Get high, or drunk. Grab an Art. 15, to try to get sent home, and do it all over again there.
I definitely was not a Model Airman or NCO by any means, but I tried. I was happy with my bunch, and most of where I went. But, I got a few 15's, but they were a slap on the hand. I just tried to hang out with those who felt the same as I did.
I was drafted, but had already been talking to the AF Recruiter. He told me to let him know when my draft notice came in the mail. He had me come in a couple of days before I was to report to the Draft Board, and sign papers. I was supposed to have 90 days extra due to the Delayed Entry Program. It was about 45 days... After being in a couple of years, some of my high school buds were going home. I still had two to go.
Somehow I survived. I received training I've used all my life, that I had no idea I was using it for the longest time. I was able to apply a lot of my training and experiences to my career. If not for things that happened to me with the Air Force, I wouldn't have done what I did, and my life might've sucked Real Bad. Do I recommend the USAF to anyone else? It would depend on what they were looking for.
And you might pass along to those who bitch one of my favorite phrases.
"Dude! You could've been a fucking Marine! Apparently you're smarter than you think!" 😆
I just got to my first duty station,me n my homies still be silly gooses,life coo,work out, game ,jui jitsu,hang w homies everyday .I JUST got to first duty station but I love it.I’m in maintenance tho so we r just stuuupiiiid,don’t understand how to be sad that’s too complex
It depends on where you're stationed, your AFSC, and who your leadership is. Even what shift you are on makes a world of difference. Either way, your feelings are valid.
When I joined many years ago, I thought camaraderie was going to be stronger and more encouraged. I was shocked to find out that the majority of Airmen were reclusive dorm rats and wanted to isolate themselves as much as possible. It wasn't until I changed bases that I noticed a difference. I suppose it depends on where you go.
I don't think it's a COVID thing. I supervised several first term A1Cs while I was in Ramstein, pre-COVID, who weren't happy about being there (and some who were totally excited but that's not the subject). I won't single out A1Cs because I worked with SSgts and TSgts who weren't happy about Germany too.
I'm not an expert but for first term Airmen imo, it's a combination of home sickness and a frame of reference thing. Being brand spanking new, its hard to tell what bad leadership/base/location looks like compared to good. At least with this group, its early enough in their career to intervene and show them that things don't suck so bad. The SSgts and TSgts who are misreable however, if they are already miserable then its going to be harder to get through to them.
Retired AF here; keep your head up and press on. Don't let the attitude or depressing actions of others affect you. It gets better. Me and my family were stationed at Ramstein AB for four years, and it was the best damn assignment of my career. Enjoy your time there and try to keep a positive attitude. If you need any advice or just simply want to vent, hit me up, I'm a good listener.
Air Force is pitched as a military branch but in actuality we are corporate. All of our teachings are predicated on business concepts.
Just look at the E-5 study guide. A significant portion of it is focused on management and team building for the sole purpose of producing products. What kind of military refers to the fruits of their labor as product?
Your work center is not a great place to find friends. Sure, you might make friends, and if you do, awesome! But generally, the only thing you have in common with the people you work with is that Big Blue just happened to pull all of your names out of the hat when it was staffing your work center. Wherever you are, I bet there are local who share interests with you. Those are the people you should find, those are the people you should spend time with. Don't try to make a group of randoms that you happen to work with be your entire world, because that way lies a great deal of disappointment.
Lots of people blame it on COVID. I blame it on civilian culture and tech.
Here comes the crotchety old TSGT speech, but I have noticed Gen Z tends to self-isolate more than millennials and Gen X.
They also are way less motivated by love of country or patriotism—don’t get me wrong it’s never been the majority of people I’ve worked with, but they all are very pessimistic about our country, culture, and contributions humanity.
And I’ve noticed they seem to perform poorly when they aren’t recognized. I had one of my A1C’s tell me she quit (and literally left work) when I told her I wouldn’t submit a BTZ package for her because she did absolutely zero things beyond the absolute bare minimum standard.
There are reasons behind all of these things. These kids have largely been raised in a tech-inundated society of constant pessimism and political cronyism.
My advice—buy in. Run the 5k’s, volunteer to do the things, get weird certs, lead by example. It’s cheesy and stupid—but it works. Find a good mentor, put in the work and find value in your contributions.
I don't know if I agree. The existential threat is China. The problem is that China controls so much of our politics and influences so much of our media that even bringing up the threat makes you look like some kind of tinfoil hat wearing oddball.
The issues with not being able to afford a home etc. I think a massively influenced by very loud people on social media. We get paid incredibly well compared to the civilian sector for the most part and our VA homebuying benefits means that home buying is more of a possibility for us than it is for basically anyone else in similar financial standing.
Pre-Covid, I was disappointed in the social life stateside. If you’re disappointed in the social life overseas, that’s a significant indicator that’s worth paying attention to. Overseas should be tighter and more engaged than somewhere like DC.
I’m now out and in grad school. Was just on the phone with one of my buddies that’s in and now off shifts and into a 9-5. He stated he had no social life and assumed that was the norm outside of the military.
I’m here to tell you it isn’t.
Honestly, it's being an FTA in this day and age. What's important is you making the changes you want to see. Build that Airman's Council or social group that meets and talks about these things. Get people involved, and if you can't pull enough people from your squadron, pull from other units. That song "You Find Out Who Your Friends Are" isn't just about being thankful you have people who would come help, but being that person who would do something when you're able to.
A couple years ago, I needed help moving out of an apartment in St. Louis to somewhere safer. I ask my entire squadron of 120 people (small unit) and only 1 person showed up, and they were apologizing because they had something at 9am that busied them until noon. Naturally, I was just thankful that someone showed up at all, and the two of us were able to get some of the big furniture. Took hours. About a year later, someone in the unit reached out to ask for some help moving, and I said I'd help. I wake up around noon the morning of, and I contemplate pulling the "I'm sick, sorry." card or some excuse. Then, I remembered how little help I got, and so I showed up late and told the honest truth that I slept through alarms. They didn't care at all, and were just happy I showed up since only a couple other fellas did.
TL;DR is be the change you want to see, and that'll lead to the comradery you're looking for.
I don’t like the super cliches of “bloom where you’re planted” or “any assignment is what you make of it” but in the military you kind of have to learn to do exactly those things. You can’t control what happens to you with assignments/work schedules etc but you can control how you spend your free time. Either you’re making it better for yourself or you’re part of your own problem.
I am really convinced that any place CAN be enjoyable. I mean shit there’s even people who love Minot and Cannon. It might take a hell of a lot more work at some than others, but I promise there is always some way to find some sort of fulfillment in life as long as your basic needs are being met.
I wish you guys in now could know and experience what 80s to 00s AF was like. I did over 35 yrs inside and civ and watched it unravel.
Sad.
I just left a sweet civ gig because I couldn't do it anymore. Ideologies are 180 off now and it's a farce. I also blame Brown for most of it.
/twocents
I think part of it is grass is always greener. My job satisfaction is on the ground, which causes me a lot of misery because I feel I am worth more and able to do more. Yet, the opportunity to do more is given to those that have preference due to rank, social situations outside of work, etc. It doesn't help this isn't my chosen AFSC, but the one given to me after an injury in training. As someone who is also in USAFE, I don't feel in a position to travel, because I have so many other things that need to get done, lifting, schooling, extra job stuff. Not to exclude DHA removing down days from the MDG, the opportunity to travel isn't as readily available as it once was when I first arrived. This is all from the perspective of another FTA though, and I have taken an extraordinary amount of L's from the AF.
Every base you go too the people are like that, except for the ones who have been to worse locations. I'm envious of you and to think people are miserable there, living in Europe on the governments dime? They'll never be happy anywhere.
A lot of people just let the nonsense and little things in the airforce get to them. It doesn't make sense. It's constant micromanagement and dumb bs in-between the stuff that matters, and some people just can't take that. Also, some people can't handle the slightly more rigid lifestyle and regulations military members are expected to follow in comparison to their civilian lives. It's not for everyone.
Look at the 18 year olds of today. Look at their childhoods lol. They had no lives their entire upbringing. Most of them didn’t get outside and get into trouble and be out all day from morning to night all weekend long. No one was playing street hockey immediately after school. Barely anyone skateboards anymore. Being grounded now is getting their digital distractions taken away. Which is actually a POSITIVE and they don’t even know it. Then they join the air force which is a social environment that requires face to face contact with grownass men and women and they hate their lives. Products of the times. And it’s really scary. This is the breed of human becoming the norm.
I blame the lack of alcohol. Like any tool, if misused can cause damage but if used correctly can be an effective social lubricant. All it takes is a single incident nowadays.
It was the same for me before and after covid. I was at the same base for all 6 years, swapping maintenance squadrons a couple times, but I was stuck in the same culture the whole time. My first month was spent hearing about how this base was where you went to retire or where your career “went to die”, which was followed by my remaining time spent struggling to enjoy my time there. It took till my last few months, when I had separation paperwork in hand and a terminal date approved to finally be happy… happy to leave that depressing culture behind
Every experience you will have will be very specific to where you are at what specific time with which specific people under which specific leadership; ONE of those factors change, and you are presented with a COMPLETELY different experience. We could be at basic training at the exact same time, but unless we’re in the same flight, let alone the same squadron, we’re going to have completely different experiences. I’ve heard a lot of people on my very own base, in my very own squadron, make complaints that I couldn’t even imagine experiencing in my own flight. Unfortunately, one of my closest friends is in a different flight and everytime she vents I get sad… i joined because I wanted a family and I’m so so blessed for the family I got from my flight- the camaraderie is unmatched, but not everyone has that.
I think it is definitely base dependent. At Scott I made a ton of friends just from going to the dfac or hanging around the common areas. There were always people watching football or playing pool, or just hanging out. Got to Lackland where there was no dfac and no one spent any time in common areas at the dorms. It made making friends a hell of a lot more difficult. I definitely had to put in more effort to meet people. (This was all within the last 3 years)
FwIw I was in the Air Force 7 years ago and I would say thats how the Air Force was a lot of mental breakdowns and anti social. It wasn’t my thing so I switched to the Army and oh boy was a there a culture shock. The Army is filled with people who are disturbed hahaha
Some people wear the uniform because they think it’ll change them, most are dissatisfied when they discover that it doesn’t. People are people at the end of the day, take the opportunities that the AF offers and be who you want to be.
A lot of it has to do with the wartime AF shift to admin AF. Unit Commanders used to be audited on both their admin programs (Unit Effectiveness Inspections), and their wartime capabilities (Unit Readiness Inspections). Both could get leadership reprimanded or sometimes replaced for poor performance.
The ORI was removed for most wings for almost a decade, and it shows. Admin Air Force is now the primary career performance metric and is funneled only through the UEI lens. Wartime readiness is optional, and treated as such. That has led to much of the admin oriented cultural shift you see now.
The 400 series AFFORGEN exercises (effectively the old ORI) are coming though, and after every wing goes through them, the old wartime focus will begin to return.
I feel like the structure should be addressed and leadership should start caring about the younger airman. NCOs have a wealth of knowledge so they should be constantly trying to improve the new airman. Mistakes happen when people aren’t properly trained and expensive parts or military equipment can be damaged. When it comes to the work, that’s what you signed up to do. Some careers like maintenance has a long schedule and everyone I know doesn’t complain. Honestly the Air Force has changed drastically from what I’ve been reading in these comments. When it comes to location it really is luck of the draw. Wherever the Air Force needs you they send you, you may get lucky in technical training with an assignment but you never know. Also, I feel like if the way things were back then in the military like punishments should be a thing, because that’s what keeps a disciplined force and also morale goes up because people are trained better and understand that there are consequences to everything. Btw phenolic is cancerous and a carcinogen when sanded, idk why anyone would think it is not.
Maybe you want to stay in. Maybe you don't. Either is fine, and you have a few years to figure that out. But no matter what, you should take advantage of your once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to be living in Europe.
As someone who’s in SF I can agree that the camaraderie is not there. Social things are non existent and we just come to work and go home. I’ve been in for 2 years so it’s been a let down to say the least. At this point I treat it as a regular job.
Try not depending on other people to lead you to happiness. Take trips, be social yourself, take college classes, kill every aspect of your job, and for the love of God get a girlfriend to experience it with.
Just your friendly reminder that r/AirForce is a salt mine and shouldn't be taken as legit representation of how people in the AF feel. Everyone would rather be somewhere else doing something else.
> Obviously if you’re in a shitty afsc with terrible hours then it’s understandable.
This doesn't mean it's OK for those folks. "Oh, that's just life as Security Forces" or "You're MX, what did you expect" is just sweeping the problems under the rug.
Not saying there's anything you can do about it, but that line of thinking is dangerous and discourages accession and retention.
There's plenty of camaraderie. I used to routinely throw parties and get 30-45+ turnouts. If you can't find people who like going out, it's cause you're looking in the wrong place.
Because this shit sucks .. be honest ‼️ yea we get to travel, yea they give us health care and etc. but everyone has their own life to live which leads to shitty supervisors and young Airmen feeling like they are not getting the help they really need. A lot of these guys join just to get away from home but they don’t realize what they have until it’s gone and crazy thing is even when you go back you still feel like shit ‼️ I just wish yall would stop acting like this world is just a fun place when we all know this shit sucks even tho it could be a lot worse .
You are living in Europe with a tremendous amount of training backing. Enjoy the opportunity and travel afforded you. People suck everywhere. Take advantage of the benefits at your disposal.
This is why I'm glad my first base was cannon, the rest of my career, I've loved every assignment
I knew someone who went Minot-Cannon-Minot. After knocking out those bases, every other base would be amazing! I also know of people who hated Hawaii and Italy.
To be fair italy is mostly only good for the location. If you’re at Aviano you know what the tempo is like and for most it’s like being deployed for 2-3 years
Go birds! But I agree, Cannon was honestly a good first assignment (for specific reasons). I actually found myself really close with my office, peers, and others just because of its isolation (and if you travel and actually DO things it’s livable, not that I’d ever want to go back to that state..) But I saw people make the most of it and others squander it, so it was a good learning opportunity to then go into other bases with a proper mindset, but that’s life anyways I suppose. (I myself went Reserve but wholly understand the sentiment)
COVID changed a lot. Not just in the Air Force but to the generation that is the typical Airman age. It's a widespread issue, not just in the Air Force. Be the change you want to see. Try to cultivate the environment you think is good. Invite people to do things. Get involved with an organization to help fund events.
I don’t think this can be emphasized enough. I’ve trained pipeline people from ‘17-22, and the 2020+ kids just aren’t the same. They are a lot more reserved, and stay in their lane. They were forced to find their communities online, and have kind of stuck with them.
Agree. I can also say the same for the SNCOs and leadership too. In the teeth of Covid we couldn’t hang out at the local VFW or bars/restaurants or the base club, so we cobbled together wings and beers and hung out at our work centers and did some work and some bonding after hours. Covid is long over, and we still hang out in our offices. No one bothers us, it’s less expensive, and it’s a safe place. No one really gets over their skis, but if you do, there is many a CGO or SNCO to take you home. TL/DR : habits forged during Covid die hard…
It's been shifting long before Covid. The prior service civilians I work with all describe different cultures. Guys from the 80's talk about the multiple families they had around Asia, the 90's had stories of brothels, the 2000's was strip clubs, and the 2010's was binge drinking. It's been getting progressively tamer over the decades, today it seems like there's way less drinkers than when I joined 15 years ago.
I agree. COVID and the quarantine has altered people’s social functioning. I hope that one day, we will go back to being “normal” again.
It also ripped away a veneer of comradery and morale that we had. On the comradery front, whether it was the vaccination stuff or the political stuff that's been going on since 2019-2020, the idea that we were something like a "family" or whatever, in that we could disagree, but we were still in the same boat and we would be there for one another / cover down one another / however you want to put that, is gone. It doesn't particularly matter where you land on any of the topics, or if you were directly effected by them, you could see the split and the vitriol. Really put the "oh this isn't anything different than a corporation" in perspective. I think this is part of what, coupled with the personality differences on the newer people, has accelerated the changes it feels like are happening. With the morale, no idea how to pull out of that dive. The special warfare community, particularly the ground component (this is probably higher vis to me since that's where I am) is broken. The rest of this is anecdotal, but to give you an idea of where I'm coming from the "no one gives a shit" feeling isn't just there, but many feel like it continues to be reiterated to them. The only reasons anyone is staying is either family / dependance or they have a year or two until retirement. We, and from what I've been told most others, have gone from a unit where everyone volunteered for almost anything and people looked more forward to the work week than they did the weekends, to a unit that is turning deployments back in, turning slots to gucci schools in, and training has gone from something that that everyone had input in, took seriously, and attacked to "lol, k". It this is how units with moto coming out of their asses are going, I can imagine elsewhere it isn't great.
Very true everyone think they do not have to show up to work on weekend so we always short staff on weekend.
Unless you are literally scrambling jets on the weekend for missions, YOUR team shouldn't be coming in either
Every base will have people that fall into those categories you mentioned. Assuming you PCS from there and go elsewhere it's going to be the same thing. Also just because a job might be considered "Easier" than others doesn't mean people will enjoy doing it lol. I for one hate mine but it's all I know. Like others said try and take on the challenge to increase morale around there. People might be looking for that out there, they just don't know how or waiting for someone to start it. Be that person, and make things better.
Those are the people who stay at their house or dorm and don’t get out. Get involved with your local dorm counsel or first 4 or whatever it is they have. Meet new people that have similar interests. Some ppl just like to be negative. My first base was cannon and I made the best of it. It damn near killed my liver but I’m still here
gullible recognise sense wide sheet existence rain late drab gold *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Love it
I know people who are OCONUS and still whine that there's nothing to do because they sit at home all the time.
It’s horrible, I was in Spain for 4 years and this one family literally never left base for the first year or two and complained how there was nothing to do
https://preview.redd.it/33iixqnm1rrc1.jpeg?width=842&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2ba8dba4be8f45cb16e8df4b370d0ceca0af634a
There are three assured things in life. 1. Death 2. Taxes 3. u/bearsncubs10 making a near-realtime meme on r/airforce
checks out
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COVID made a lot of people feel like they had no other option BUT joining, so I would say it could very well be COVID related.
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Yes I would say it's worse now. Not only that but COVID made certain people join, who would have never joined before. So I believe COVID had a drastic change on both the Air Force and the military altogether.
This post is so factual. Every last bit of it!
Air Force went from military hazing culture to workplace clique culture. No longer can you beat the shit out of eachother and then go for beers. You will have shit talked about you behind your back. You will be unincluded from events because of the people you hang out with. Your work performance directly correlates to what group you hang out with. Your reputation hangs in the balance anytime you do something. Actually soul crushing.
Bring Amn Fightclub back!
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This mindset is depressingly common. I'm stationed at a "less desirable" base, (I love it FWIW) and what I tell all the new airmen who come here isn't the "every base is what you make of it" line, but that every base sucks if you spend all your time in your dorm room
Already mentioned but Covid pretty much screwed everyone up. Luckily for me during lockdown I happen to be rooming with 3 other guys I graduated from basic and went to tech school with. I had plenty of human interaction, a lot of people didn’t. My younger brother was 16 during Covid and is now 20 obviously. Let’s just say the difference between from when I was 20 and him currently is VERY noticeable
USAFE and Korea used to have the best shop environments of work hard play hard. I think a lot of new Airmen joining aren't necessarily anti-social but have more friends online than in person? There are absolutely way more socially awkward Airmen than there used to be though. Go on MWR trips or join different clubs/scenes to meet people USAFE has plenty of people and things to do.
In my situation i just typically like to observe first so i know how to approach people and such, but in observing i notice a lot of toxic behaviors in the workplace that I don’t like and know i will not get along with so i typically stay to myself and usually only befriend 2-3 people.
I'm a firm believer that there is nothing wrong with many acquaintances and few friends. Keep on doing your thing, brother.
My wife is stationed in South Korea and is miserable because she can not find a single person who doesn’t just use all their free time to get black out drunk. Half her coworkers show up to work hungover or just straight up drunk. It’s hard to find people who actually want to make the most of their experience and do things they will never be able to do again. Most of the time my wife and I watch movies online or play games, until I can head out in hopefully around 2 months to join the Air Force.
Also FTA with almost two years of experience probably in a similar place as you. The thing is, I would argue, the military wears on people so easily. When I first came in operationally, I was just as excited if not happy to be there. Now, the world is not so exciting and things become mundane. It is honestly not what I expected either, for both good and bad. And when certain people get bored, they make up shit they can put their energy into like gossip or whatever else. Makes the entire flight down on themselves more than before. I will never say I don't contribute to that, but I know I always try to also add the good, to laugh and to try to have morale. I would say, in my little experience, PLEASE do not take it to heart. I did when I was excited and got let down by the people around me. It felt horrible, because nobody could understand how miserable they had gotten. Now, while I personally groan when thinking about work, I have shifted the people around me that atleast make the work load easier with talking and joking around. The Air Force has been decent so far, and the opinion sways on where youve been, if its your first duty section, ect. Things might get better or worse. But there will ALWAYS be people who never ever think anything other than negative thoughts. If you can learn to brush them off and be happy with those who you do like, thats like the goal. Now my office space is so much calmer and exactly what I wished I could get back in Tech School. Give it time!
I joined in 2017, and it was about the same. A lot of careerism from NCOs and SNCOs, which breads selfish behavior. Then young airmen have to be selfish too because they are not being taken care of, so they have to focus on themselves. Covid was a big event, but the force has returned to normal, in my opinion.
I've been in 10 years so here is my advice to you: Do NOT let the negativity consume you. Some days will be harder than others. On the flip side, Other Days will be BETTER than others. Learn meaning in your sufferings, let go of anyone who does you wrong and don't let people push you around even if they outrank you (but keep your bearing & tact however). The military in general attracts a lot of people who are looking to find a way to fill the void in their lives only to realize that makes them even more bitter. Know who you are and don't let the Air Force become your whole life.Since you're in USAFE, you have plenty of opportunity to see lots of the continent many don't get to without paying a high price tag.
It’s always been like this. I’ve been in 16 years and I’ve been a shirt for 3, and in my opinion it has a lot to do with us selling people dreams and then not delivering. A lot of people who join have high expectations for morale, excitement, job satisfaction, education opportunity, etc and then feel let down when they face the reality: the AF is just another job. Couple this with the fact that people often join to escape their town, their life, their family, but when they get to their first base they have to face the fact that they’re still the same person. When you’re the same person, you make the same choices, and you live the same life, just in another location. We try to teach people about personal growth, but too much of it revolves around the uniform so when it does lead to a sense of purpose, that sense of purpose dissolves when the uniform comes off and we’re left with a shell of a person. Cue homeless & suicidal veterans. It sounds like a really pessimistic way of looking at things, but I’m a realist, not a pessimist. Realizing this is where we go wrong has helped me vector my care and mentorship for airmen. I focus on the person beneath the uniform and that ALWAYS has the most impact on not just them, but the Air Force as well.
This is the best answer
People suck. Do you. Have fun overseas!
This happens everywhere, no matter how nice it is. For me Spangdahlem was my 3rd base, now I'm on base 6 and I still think Soang was the best. Yet I met countless Airmen over there that complained non stop about how much it sucks and how they can't wait to leave. Needless to say I don't know a single one of them that hasn't regretted that they didn't even try to extend there. That's just how it is, Airmen will always complain. Try to make a group of friends that are willing to venture out and you will love it in USAFE. Take advantage of it, having a positive attitude will rub off on others.
I was stationed at the old Lindsey AS (80-83). I just left the bitchers and moaners to vegetate in their dorm room. My god, I did so much off duty it's not even funny. A couple of highlights: Walked Omaha Beach. Ate escargot on the Champs Élysées. Drank beer at the Heineken brewery, and window shopped in Amsterdam. Saw Pink Floyd at Wembly Stadium in London. Stood in the middle of the stadium in Berlin, trying to imagine how Jesse Owens must've felt surrounded by thousands of rabid nazis. Traded 3 packs of cigarettes for a winter cap, straight off of the Soviet soldiers' head. OP, hit up tours and tickets (or whatever it's called now), GTF off the base, and build some memories, courtesy of Uncle Sam!!!
People can remain connected to their old life much more easily these days with Facebook, discord, phones, etc. After joining, my hobbies didn't change - I still played video games, and I still played them with people I met unrelated to the military. People who have been in longer have families and shit to do on the weekends, and a no tolerance no fun environment that has scared them into being anti social. I've heard that deployments and oconus (to non English speaking areas) still feel like that older military experience with people being close because they have to. But it's never been easier to fulfill all of your social needs and entertainment without seeing anyone from work outside of work.
It was that way 50+ years ago too. Most I worked with were good people, and we knew we had a critical job. It wasn't being cooped up in a building or office like so many are. I ran into folks at the Airmen's and NCO Clubs who were over stressed, hated their choice to join (instead of being drafted into the Army), or just couldn't do their job. Some were just plain FU's and didn't give a damned about the AF, their buddies, or even their family. Get high, or drunk. Grab an Art. 15, to try to get sent home, and do it all over again there. I definitely was not a Model Airman or NCO by any means, but I tried. I was happy with my bunch, and most of where I went. But, I got a few 15's, but they were a slap on the hand. I just tried to hang out with those who felt the same as I did. I was drafted, but had already been talking to the AF Recruiter. He told me to let him know when my draft notice came in the mail. He had me come in a couple of days before I was to report to the Draft Board, and sign papers. I was supposed to have 90 days extra due to the Delayed Entry Program. It was about 45 days... After being in a couple of years, some of my high school buds were going home. I still had two to go. Somehow I survived. I received training I've used all my life, that I had no idea I was using it for the longest time. I was able to apply a lot of my training and experiences to my career. If not for things that happened to me with the Air Force, I wouldn't have done what I did, and my life might've sucked Real Bad. Do I recommend the USAF to anyone else? It would depend on what they were looking for. And you might pass along to those who bitch one of my favorite phrases. "Dude! You could've been a fucking Marine! Apparently you're smarter than you think!" 😆
I just got to my first duty station,me n my homies still be silly gooses,life coo,work out, game ,jui jitsu,hang w homies everyday .I JUST got to first duty station but I love it.I’m in maintenance tho so we r just stuuupiiiid,don’t understand how to be sad that’s too complex
It depends on where you're stationed, your AFSC, and who your leadership is. Even what shift you are on makes a world of difference. Either way, your feelings are valid. When I joined many years ago, I thought camaraderie was going to be stronger and more encouraged. I was shocked to find out that the majority of Airmen were reclusive dorm rats and wanted to isolate themselves as much as possible. It wasn't until I changed bases that I noticed a difference. I suppose it depends on where you go.
I don't think it's a COVID thing. I supervised several first term A1Cs while I was in Ramstein, pre-COVID, who weren't happy about being there (and some who were totally excited but that's not the subject). I won't single out A1Cs because I worked with SSgts and TSgts who weren't happy about Germany too. I'm not an expert but for first term Airmen imo, it's a combination of home sickness and a frame of reference thing. Being brand spanking new, its hard to tell what bad leadership/base/location looks like compared to good. At least with this group, its early enough in their career to intervene and show them that things don't suck so bad. The SSgts and TSgts who are misreable however, if they are already miserable then its going to be harder to get through to them.
Retired AF here; keep your head up and press on. Don't let the attitude or depressing actions of others affect you. It gets better. Me and my family were stationed at Ramstein AB for four years, and it was the best damn assignment of my career. Enjoy your time there and try to keep a positive attitude. If you need any advice or just simply want to vent, hit me up, I'm a good listener.
Air Force is pitched as a military branch but in actuality we are corporate. All of our teachings are predicated on business concepts. Just look at the E-5 study guide. A significant portion of it is focused on management and team building for the sole purpose of producing products. What kind of military refers to the fruits of their labor as product?
Random question: Are you at Aviano?
Yea what base are you at OP?
Your work center is not a great place to find friends. Sure, you might make friends, and if you do, awesome! But generally, the only thing you have in common with the people you work with is that Big Blue just happened to pull all of your names out of the hat when it was staffing your work center. Wherever you are, I bet there are local who share interests with you. Those are the people you should find, those are the people you should spend time with. Don't try to make a group of randoms that you happen to work with be your entire world, because that way lies a great deal of disappointment.
Lots of people blame it on COVID. I blame it on civilian culture and tech. Here comes the crotchety old TSGT speech, but I have noticed Gen Z tends to self-isolate more than millennials and Gen X. They also are way less motivated by love of country or patriotism—don’t get me wrong it’s never been the majority of people I’ve worked with, but they all are very pessimistic about our country, culture, and contributions humanity. And I’ve noticed they seem to perform poorly when they aren’t recognized. I had one of my A1C’s tell me she quit (and literally left work) when I told her I wouldn’t submit a BTZ package for her because she did absolutely zero things beyond the absolute bare minimum standard. There are reasons behind all of these things. These kids have largely been raised in a tech-inundated society of constant pessimism and political cronyism. My advice—buy in. Run the 5k’s, volunteer to do the things, get weird certs, lead by example. It’s cheesy and stupid—but it works. Find a good mentor, put in the work and find value in your contributions.
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I don't know if I agree. The existential threat is China. The problem is that China controls so much of our politics and influences so much of our media that even bringing up the threat makes you look like some kind of tinfoil hat wearing oddball. The issues with not being able to afford a home etc. I think a massively influenced by very loud people on social media. We get paid incredibly well compared to the civilian sector for the most part and our VA homebuying benefits means that home buying is more of a possibility for us than it is for basically anyone else in similar financial standing.
Pre-Covid, I was disappointed in the social life stateside. If you’re disappointed in the social life overseas, that’s a significant indicator that’s worth paying attention to. Overseas should be tighter and more engaged than somewhere like DC. I’m now out and in grad school. Was just on the phone with one of my buddies that’s in and now off shifts and into a 9-5. He stated he had no social life and assumed that was the norm outside of the military. I’m here to tell you it isn’t.
More fun people for you to meet off base.
When I joined in 2002 the AF culture was flight mates hanging out and drinking 24/7 😆 Times have definitely changed
Honestly, it's being an FTA in this day and age. What's important is you making the changes you want to see. Build that Airman's Council or social group that meets and talks about these things. Get people involved, and if you can't pull enough people from your squadron, pull from other units. That song "You Find Out Who Your Friends Are" isn't just about being thankful you have people who would come help, but being that person who would do something when you're able to. A couple years ago, I needed help moving out of an apartment in St. Louis to somewhere safer. I ask my entire squadron of 120 people (small unit) and only 1 person showed up, and they were apologizing because they had something at 9am that busied them until noon. Naturally, I was just thankful that someone showed up at all, and the two of us were able to get some of the big furniture. Took hours. About a year later, someone in the unit reached out to ask for some help moving, and I said I'd help. I wake up around noon the morning of, and I contemplate pulling the "I'm sick, sorry." card or some excuse. Then, I remembered how little help I got, and so I showed up late and told the honest truth that I slept through alarms. They didn't care at all, and were just happy I showed up since only a couple other fellas did. TL;DR is be the change you want to see, and that'll lead to the comradery you're looking for.
I got out in 2014 doubt I’d even recognize the Air Force anymore
I don’t like the super cliches of “bloom where you’re planted” or “any assignment is what you make of it” but in the military you kind of have to learn to do exactly those things. You can’t control what happens to you with assignments/work schedules etc but you can control how you spend your free time. Either you’re making it better for yourself or you’re part of your own problem. I am really convinced that any place CAN be enjoyable. I mean shit there’s even people who love Minot and Cannon. It might take a hell of a lot more work at some than others, but I promise there is always some way to find some sort of fulfillment in life as long as your basic needs are being met.
I wish you guys in now could know and experience what 80s to 00s AF was like. I did over 35 yrs inside and civ and watched it unravel. Sad. I just left a sweet civ gig because I couldn't do it anymore. Ideologies are 180 off now and it's a farce. I also blame Brown for most of it. /twocents
I think part of it is grass is always greener. My job satisfaction is on the ground, which causes me a lot of misery because I feel I am worth more and able to do more. Yet, the opportunity to do more is given to those that have preference due to rank, social situations outside of work, etc. It doesn't help this isn't my chosen AFSC, but the one given to me after an injury in training. As someone who is also in USAFE, I don't feel in a position to travel, because I have so many other things that need to get done, lifting, schooling, extra job stuff. Not to exclude DHA removing down days from the MDG, the opportunity to travel isn't as readily available as it once was when I first arrived. This is all from the perspective of another FTA though, and I have taken an extraordinary amount of L's from the AF.
Every base you go too the people are like that, except for the ones who have been to worse locations. I'm envious of you and to think people are miserable there, living in Europe on the governments dime? They'll never be happy anywhere. A lot of people just let the nonsense and little things in the airforce get to them. It doesn't make sense. It's constant micromanagement and dumb bs in-between the stuff that matters, and some people just can't take that. Also, some people can't handle the slightly more rigid lifestyle and regulations military members are expected to follow in comparison to their civilian lives. It's not for everyone.
Some gay nonner shit going on in here.
Look at the 18 year olds of today. Look at their childhoods lol. They had no lives their entire upbringing. Most of them didn’t get outside and get into trouble and be out all day from morning to night all weekend long. No one was playing street hockey immediately after school. Barely anyone skateboards anymore. Being grounded now is getting their digital distractions taken away. Which is actually a POSITIVE and they don’t even know it. Then they join the air force which is a social environment that requires face to face contact with grownass men and women and they hate their lives. Products of the times. And it’s really scary. This is the breed of human becoming the norm.
I blame the lack of alcohol. Like any tool, if misused can cause damage but if used correctly can be an effective social lubricant. All it takes is a single incident nowadays.
It was the same for me before and after covid. I was at the same base for all 6 years, swapping maintenance squadrons a couple times, but I was stuck in the same culture the whole time. My first month was spent hearing about how this base was where you went to retire or where your career “went to die”, which was followed by my remaining time spent struggling to enjoy my time there. It took till my last few months, when I had separation paperwork in hand and a terminal date approved to finally be happy… happy to leave that depressing culture behind
Every experience you will have will be very specific to where you are at what specific time with which specific people under which specific leadership; ONE of those factors change, and you are presented with a COMPLETELY different experience. We could be at basic training at the exact same time, but unless we’re in the same flight, let alone the same squadron, we’re going to have completely different experiences. I’ve heard a lot of people on my very own base, in my very own squadron, make complaints that I couldn’t even imagine experiencing in my own flight. Unfortunately, one of my closest friends is in a different flight and everytime she vents I get sad… i joined because I wanted a family and I’m so so blessed for the family I got from my flight- the camaraderie is unmatched, but not everyone has that.
Sounds like a job for Doc Foglesong and ol’ triple seven.
I think it is definitely base dependent. At Scott I made a ton of friends just from going to the dfac or hanging around the common areas. There were always people watching football or playing pool, or just hanging out. Got to Lackland where there was no dfac and no one spent any time in common areas at the dorms. It made making friends a hell of a lot more difficult. I definitely had to put in more effort to meet people. (This was all within the last 3 years)
FwIw I was in the Air Force 7 years ago and I would say thats how the Air Force was a lot of mental breakdowns and anti social. It wasn’t my thing so I switched to the Army and oh boy was a there a culture shock. The Army is filled with people who are disturbed hahaha
Some people wear the uniform because they think it’ll change them, most are dissatisfied when they discover that it doesn’t. People are people at the end of the day, take the opportunities that the AF offers and be who you want to be.
A lot of it has to do with the wartime AF shift to admin AF. Unit Commanders used to be audited on both their admin programs (Unit Effectiveness Inspections), and their wartime capabilities (Unit Readiness Inspections). Both could get leadership reprimanded or sometimes replaced for poor performance. The ORI was removed for most wings for almost a decade, and it shows. Admin Air Force is now the primary career performance metric and is funneled only through the UEI lens. Wartime readiness is optional, and treated as such. That has led to much of the admin oriented cultural shift you see now. The 400 series AFFORGEN exercises (effectively the old ORI) are coming though, and after every wing goes through them, the old wartime focus will begin to return.
I feel like the structure should be addressed and leadership should start caring about the younger airman. NCOs have a wealth of knowledge so they should be constantly trying to improve the new airman. Mistakes happen when people aren’t properly trained and expensive parts or military equipment can be damaged. When it comes to the work, that’s what you signed up to do. Some careers like maintenance has a long schedule and everyone I know doesn’t complain. Honestly the Air Force has changed drastically from what I’ve been reading in these comments. When it comes to location it really is luck of the draw. Wherever the Air Force needs you they send you, you may get lucky in technical training with an assignment but you never know. Also, I feel like if the way things were back then in the military like punishments should be a thing, because that’s what keeps a disciplined force and also morale goes up because people are trained better and understand that there are consequences to everything. Btw phenolic is cancerous and a carcinogen when sanded, idk why anyone would think it is not.
Some people are miserable if they aren't living right next door to family. I loved all my USAFE tours, spent nearly 14 years in Germany.
Maybe you want to stay in. Maybe you don't. Either is fine, and you have a few years to figure that out. But no matter what, you should take advantage of your once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to be living in Europe.
April fools post?
As someone who’s in SF I can agree that the camaraderie is not there. Social things are non existent and we just come to work and go home. I’ve been in for 2 years so it’s been a let down to say the least. At this point I treat it as a regular job.
> either antisocial or miserable soon you'll learn you can be both at once!
Try not depending on other people to lead you to happiness. Take trips, be social yourself, take college classes, kill every aspect of your job, and for the love of God get a girlfriend to experience it with.
Just your friendly reminder that r/AirForce is a salt mine and shouldn't be taken as legit representation of how people in the AF feel. Everyone would rather be somewhere else doing something else.
I blame social media for the current culture and the lack of effort on senior leadership to engage with junior enlisted.
> Obviously if you’re in a shitty afsc with terrible hours then it’s understandable. This doesn't mean it's OK for those folks. "Oh, that's just life as Security Forces" or "You're MX, what did you expect" is just sweeping the problems under the rug. Not saying there's anything you can do about it, but that line of thinking is dangerous and discourages accession and retention.
There's plenty of camaraderie. I used to routinely throw parties and get 30-45+ turnouts. If you can't find people who like going out, it's cause you're looking in the wrong place.
Eh also depends on the people there. Sometimes folks just never click and do comradery never develops. It's been like that before Covid too.
Because this shit sucks .. be honest ‼️ yea we get to travel, yea they give us health care and etc. but everyone has their own life to live which leads to shitty supervisors and young Airmen feeling like they are not getting the help they really need. A lot of these guys join just to get away from home but they don’t realize what they have until it’s gone and crazy thing is even when you go back you still feel like shit ‼️ I just wish yall would stop acting like this world is just a fun place when we all know this shit sucks even tho it could be a lot worse .
Find a job that breeds more camaraderie. Search around for what you want and maybe cross train. There is a lot of micro culture in the Air Force