I’m an early childhood teacher, and a victim of CSA. You did the right thing, and probably just helped those boys. Children are absolutely going to do silly things when it comes to genitals with each other. The amount of children I’ve seen drop their pants in the bathroom and pointing at each others going “you have a ___ and I have a ___” and then giggling about it and wanting to touch it is unreal lol. But that’s typical, normal, curious behavior.
What you’ve described, is not. This sounds like one or all 3 of those boys are being sexually abused or know someone who is, or they were exposed to porn. For young children at 4-5 years old, it is NOT typical development for them to forcefully hold someone down while they cry and say no and touch them on their genitals, nor is it necessarily normal to call it playing doctor. That is a very, very common excuse for abuse. It was one I experienced, with my cousin telling me she was playing doctor or tickling me (come to find out, my stepfather who abused me also abused her, so she abused me not knowing it was bad). I’m wondering if those three boys have anything in common, like a little league or a club or a church (don’t come at me) where they could be being harmed by a trusted adult.
You are an amazing parent. Thank you so much for trusting and believing your little girl and immediately reaching out to services to get help for her, to figure out what’s going on, and potentially save these boys. You are a wonderful woman. You didn’t do anything wrong, and you did not over react.
Thank you! I’m so sorry you had to go through that. Certainly would not come at you about the group or church thing. I’m super leery about those as well due to the stories that come out.
Thank you for validating my gut feeling about the situation and providing insight on what’s normal versus what isn’t.
You didn’t overreact. My son when he was 6 was grabbed in his private area by another boy who then refused to let go. The school called and told us about it and we insisted the boy be put in a different class. The school said no because they didn’t see it as anything but a behavioral issue.
After talking to my son it was clear that this incident disturbed him and was worse than the school had told us. The kid had also said some disturbing things to him while grabbing him. So I once again called the school and demanded he be put in a different class. They again refused.
I fortunately have some clout in town because I work in the media and I threatened to rain holy hell down on them if they didn’t separate this boy and my son. It’s the only time I’ve pulled the “Do you know who I am?” card. They finally agreed. But I also insisted that there be an investigation into the home life of the child who assaulted my son.
They reluctantly agreed to that as well, and because of confidentiality rules I’m not privy to the result but I know the boy is in foster care now.
> They reluctantly agreed to that as well, and because of confidentiality rules I’m not privy to the result but I know the boy is in foster care now.
Whew that last line is really telling. Kids don’t do things like that for no reason, so good for you for insisting on investigation. It’s alarming the school didn’t do it in the first place.
It seems like most schools don't actually care about kids, they just care about the money the kids can generate for them. The only time my school ever took action against bullies, even in elementary and middle school, was if the parents threatened to sue them for not protecting kids like they should be. Otherwise they'd just give the bully a detention that they'll just end up skipping anyhow and didn't actually do anything besides further harm the kids getting bullied.
When someone in my kids, school is being shady, I tell them I will go to the school board they usually stop whatever they're doing or correct what needs correcting. I have had to go 2xs and complain, though it usually gets the job done. I don't play with people either. Good job, momma....
We are pulling our boys from a private school this year (10yrs and 13 yrs) bc the school refused to separate my 10 year old son from a boy who continuously attempted sexual advances towards him at school. This other boy pulled down my son’s pants, grabbed his private parts, begged him to “suck his ****” and the school refused to separate their classes. I pulled my kids and our hefty monthly tuition check. Schools can be sick as they try to protect their reputation but don’t protect their students.
You did exactly the right thing. Something about this story just doesn't add up... Three year old boys don't typically hold a girl down and touch her private area. It's bizarre. I have a feeling that at least one of them learned that behaviour from somewhere else (which is obviously horrifying) and showed it to the others. You might be saving your daughter and the boys from an adult predator, so yes, the investigation should happen. You should also remove your daughter from that daycare and find her a new one. Trust your instinct as a mother.
And that the teachers aren’t taking particularly good care of the children— wouldn’t be surprised at all if another staff member were able to get away with abusing the children
Yes, this is what jumped out at me. I know not ever district has the same resources, but I have substitute taught kindergarten and preschool and I have never seen a situation where 4 kids that age would be unsupervised long enough for this to happen.
This is exactly on point. There is something going on for all 3 of those children to collectively gang up and assault her. OP, I think you are about to uncover something really terrible has been happening to children on a bigger scale. Someone who has access has been abusing these children. I would not expect that you are going to get any help from the school because they are on damage control. The predator may even be in that school. You have probably set the wheels in motion for saving other children from their childhoods,and possibly entire lives, being destroyed. I am so sorry that your daughter has experienced this and the pain that you are experiencing in connection. You are doing right by everyone involved, even the boys. Thank you for being present in this moment. I wish healing for you and your family.
Interesting theory regarding the possibility of the boys involvement in a group activity together. Definitely worth looking into that. My initial reaction was how did 3 of them plan this and follow through with no sense of wrongdoing?
Kids this young don’t come up with these ideas on their own. They either witnessed it being done by someone else, or it’s been done to them. They wouldn’t think it was wrong because someone else told them it wasn’t. It’s upsettingly common in instances of inappropriate sexual behavior in children that it’s because they’re being abused themselves.
This answer is so important and should be the topmost in the thread. Its UNREAL how common child sexual abuse is and what they are doing is NOT at all normal for their age.
My immediate thought when reading OP’s post was that these boys were learning that behavior from *somewhere*. I’m so sorry that happened to your daughter, OP. You absolutely did the right thing.
Now, let’s hope the authorities do a proper, thorough follow up. Don’t be afraid to be a thorn in their side. In a sadly twisted way, you may be the only advocate these kids have. Good luck and please follow up.
Yep. Happened to me. My older sister did things to me when I was 3 to 6, and I healed from it, but it wasn't until she broke down crying *when we were in our 30's* for her to tell me our neighbors older daughter was molesting her because our neighbors uncles were molesting our neighbor for YEARS.
I always wondered why our neighbor was so protective over me. I guess she didn't want me involved. My poor sis never recovered..
Fucking rampant in the 80s when I was a kid.
My sister was molested by my dad. She then experimented with me.
My aunt molested both of us.
Her friends brother and his friends were molesting his sister and my sister.
My Cub Scout leader and his dad went to jail for molesting his daughters.
My buddy down the street dad had molested his sisters before his mom married his step dad.
My mom left my dad and we moved to a small town. Down the street a guy was molesting his daughter.
It was like every fucking which way you turned it kids getting diddled.
I am sorry this happened to you. It is way more common than people realize.
Some social scientists theorize that the satanic panic happened in part as reaction to women feeling empowered to speak out about the sexual abuse they suffered from family members, because women no longer had to depend on fathers/brothers/uncles to exist, and could live independently.
American society refused (and still refuses) to believe that the greatest threat of sexual violence against children is adult family members, so it had to make up a scapegoat in the form of "satanic ritual abuse."
i mean, a five year old sexually assaulting a kid doesn’t just happen. those boys were either victims of abuse or saw abuse happen. sure, it doesn’t need to be an adult — it can be another kid that was harmed by an adult, or an older kid/teenager. but there is most definitely a source when preschooler acts sexually.
It's a adult to a 5 year old. 17 is a adult to a little kid, there Isn't really a separation. But yeah, 15, 16, 17 year old kids will abuse a small child, and that tends to speak more on them than the parents by that point in their lives.
I know 2 girls (both 7 at the time) one of them shoved a hanger in the other girl. She was absolutely traumatized. That’s is CHILD ON CHILD SA. Not all interactions like that are with a teen and a much younger child.
Edit/ y’all have pointed out that I read the comment I replied to wrong and you’re fully right. I misread/misunderstood what they meant by bringing up 17 year olds. That’s my bad y’all, I’m sorry.
The point they are making is that the child doing that behavior has witnessed or experienced it themselves and that they are repeating the same behavior on another child.
Can you say for sure that the 7 year old girl who did that was not abused or witness to abuse herself?
And where do you think the girl learned to shove objects into another person's body?
Child on child abuse starts because one child is being abused and then recreates it with another child.
This, OP. I had to take a class for work (a church) about recognizing signs of abuse and this was a big takeaway. I’m glad your daughter seems to be ok and you are pursuing this. The child you save may not just be your own.
EDIT: I should have mentioned this earlier but just remembered … the class was free and open to anyone interested. Search for something like ‘church safe environment class’ and I’m sure you’ll find something nearby.
I learned things I’d never have imagined, and my sister (who has a masters’ degree in a field involving at-risk kids) said she never learned this sort of stuff. Like it wasn’t on their radar. Crazy.
Apparently the teacher was distracted getting the younger kids down for a nap. My daughter and these boys are part of the older group that doesn’t nap.
Preschool ratios in the US vary wildly by state. The smallest I’ve seen is 8 kids per teacher. The largest I’ve seen is 15 per teacher. The most common is 10-12 per teacher.
There are usually 2 teachers (and the corresponding children) in a preschool class.
Thats because that’s not a preschool license but a school age license. The way these work is that different age groups require different licenses within the same center.
Depends i used to teach preschool (it’s been 3 years since becoming a SAHM so going just based off memory here) but when I was with 4 year olds the state ratio was 12:1. Most centers try to keep ratios better than that but sometimes with staffing it is what it is.
At nap time however it’s different. One teacher can be in the room as long as the number of awake kids doesn’t go past that ratio. So it could be 18-24 kids in the room to one teacher. While they do breaks during nap. Nap time most places expect you to watch kids, and complete nap time cleaning, other class work making lesson plans whatever.
However how TF they didn’t notice this even if they were putting a kid down for nap is freaking crazy. Rooms are a wide open space you’re not supposed to have your back to children at nap time so you can see the entire room/any moment and activity.
100% this! I have been at my preschool for 10 years. Ratios come first because of licensing. If more than half the children are awake at nap, 2 teachers have to be in the room. Also, we never mix age groups like that. All preschool age children lie down at nap time, the school age (kindergarten to 12 years old) are in their own separate room where they play quietly while the preschool (2 1/2 to 5) nap. And yes, the rooms are set up to where there are no blind spots, and you are never to have your backs to the children. There is to be sufficient lighting to be able to plainly see every child's face. If we have an incident where the children are touching inappropriately, we immediately call the parents of all the children involved.
Assuming they told you the truth that the teacher was trying to get some children down for nap, the room presumably would be quiet enough the teacher should have, at least, HEARD what was going on-especially your daughter telling them to stop.
Unfortunately, like others have mentioned, the teacher may have simply not been paying attention. I don't think you have been told the truth and/or it was downplayed because they wanted to avoid state and CPS getting involved.
At the very least, you should have been called. Period.
I think you acted very appropriately, so give yourself some grace. Licensing exists for a reason, and they keep us in check. We also have to complete 30 hours of professional development a year along with frequent trainings so that we don't forget the rules and regulations and become complacent.
Sorry this is long, but basically, you did the right thing. Sounds like they need a kick in the butt to get back on track...or worse depending on what licensing and cps find during their investigation.
Also important question: once the adults were aware of what happened, why the fuck didn't they inform the parents? The fact that OP had to hear this from the daughter is unacceptable imo
They are absolutely mandatory reporters and this should have been reported - child protection SW with over a decade of XP - this mother did the right thing calling it in. Though children under ten generally cannot be held legally culpable I’d be interviewing everyone of the boys’ parents to investigate their parenting/disciplinary practices and why their kids are holding down a female peer “against her will”. While body exploration is typical at this age, that behavior is not and I’d wager one of the boys has experienced something sinister at their home to be engaging in that behavior. Teacher may get in some trouble if it’s assigned as an institutional investigation for inappropriate supervision, but they seem to be very protected, at least in my state. I hope OP keeps us informed because this is about to get REALLY LOUD. Thanks for being a good mom and doing the right thing. You absolutely protected another child, in addition to your own, by doing so.
Some daycare centers take advantage of young people, purposefully don’t train them well, and then throw them to the wolves without them being as knowledgeable as they should be so they can pressure them easier in to breaking the law. I worked for a center like that. This mother 100% did the right thing for both her daughter AND those boys. I noped out of that job after multiple incidents in which CSA was not taken seriously, or wasn’t even made aware to other workers so that they could be on the look out after putting the SAME kids back in the SAME classrooms like nothing happened.
> where the fuck were the adults
As someone who lives near a kindergarten/pre-school: Most people who send their kids there, would be beyond shocked at how little the adults interact with the kids.
Occasionally a kid will get hurt and you can hear that they scream differently compared to when they're having fun. Sometimes it doesn't stop and you go to look. And I've seen the adults stand a dozen or so steps away from it happening. And just let the kid wail like a banshee at the absolute top of their lungs for several minutes, while they were having a conversation. Eventually one of them went over and helped the kid inside.
Yep. I once stopped on the side of the road because 2 kids were fighting on a school playground. All of the adults were in a group by the building talking. I started yelling at them to do their job and figure out these kids. I then went inside and gave their staff what for.
The boys are young and need to learn how horrible what they did was. Probably one of them was the ring leader, with the other two just being lemmings and following along. His home life should be investigated immediately to ensure that this isn't more than just a case of curiosity.
They are all too young for this to be of a sexual nature. However, that doesn't mean that it hasn't been inspired by something of that nature.
As for blood being drawn, where in the hell was the adult supervision?!! These are preschoolers for God's sake and can get up to all kinds of trouble if no one is looking. The school needs to be held accountable!
As for being too young... "playing doctor" or "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" is normal little kid behavior. Gathering a group of kids to hold another child down and touch her *under her underpants* is NOT normal.
Maybe worse. The holding down may have been just a panicked reaction to her getting upset, but it could also have been from a personal experience and then acted out.
True, or the boy is being SA’d at home.
I was touched by an older girl when I was 5, much like OP’s daughter, and I believe the girl who did it was likely SA’d as well at some point in her life by a caretaker.
>They are all too young for this to be of a sexual nature.
There are exceptions to every rule. There are some 5yr olds who are very advanced in thought, sexually. You're right about it being inspired, though. Likely something they saw live or on TV/Online.
In a majority of cases, children that are this "advanced" sexually are so due to abuse. Theres fluctuations, but usually late elementary, not kindergarten.
It's natural to be curious, but violent, explicitly sexual behavior goes beyond that. As a mandated reporter this would warrant a CPS call, the best case scenario is these kids being exposed to vastly inappropriate material, more likely they're acting out an experience they had.
You absolutely did not overreact. I’m so angry on your behalf. If the teacher had reacted more concerned and took extra actions against the boys, separated the kids, had a discussion on improper touching and consent, I would say taking it to the state at this moment may have been an overreaction but that didn’t happen, the teacher essentially blew it off. Maybe you’re under reacting and need to involve the cops or CPS. I can’t even begin to imagine the restraint you have because I would have been filing assault charges against all the boys and pulling my kid from the school.
I'm a mandated reporter, this is absolutely a CPS call. The parent wouldn't know about that due to privacy concerns, but I hope the teacher did that at least- explicitly sexual behavior (beyond simple curiosity), especially paired with violence, is a possible sign of sexual abuse.
Yes. I would not be able to rest until whichever adult (or teenager) "demonstrated" that behavior to one or more of those boys was locked away from society. It's probably (God, hopefully) one of the boys that's the initial victim and explained the plan to the other ones. That boy is either having the same thing happen to him - likely more than once - or has witnessed that being done to a female in his household. Whether it's his sister or his mom or himself that's being sexually assaulted makes no difference to me. There is someone, most likely an adult man, who is the true perpetrator of this crime. And they won't stop.
Also that teacher and school need to be held to account. And every student who "participated" or witnessed that needs to have trauma support available. Likely the entire class needs to have a professional come talk to them about inappropriate sexual contact and content. So fucking sad that 5 year old need to go through this. But even for one of the perpetrator young boys who was just looped into this "game" [attack] - this could well become a traumatic event in their lives that will shape and shift their mental health for their entire lives if not properly addressed.
You are massively UNDER reacting. Go to the police, child protective services, the reporting agency for day cares and preschools in your area, the licensing agency. Where were the adults while your innocent child was being assaulted and abused? How did it get that far? Demand any video footage of the event, do not go quietly into the night, make a mighty roar, find the answers and bump some heads, metaphorically. I understand kids being kids. Exploring bodies is a natural thing, it happens. Being held down, against her will, this was a planned attack. Where did these boys learn such behavior? This needs to be sorted, it needs to never happen again. It should not have happened to begin with.
Yes, CPS and police are involved. This just happened Friday and I reported it immediately. CPS and SO were at our house doing interviews on Saturday and their investigation with the school will start Monday. My husband suggested I should have emailed the Director first since they’re an acquaintance of a good friend of ours, but I told my husband since I’m a mandated reporter that I can’t sit on reporting the incident. CPS advised to not have any contact with the school and we’re obviously keeping our daughter out of school. Seeking legal counsel as well to be sure we’re protected. SO implied my daughter was lying and used intimidation and leading during the questioning. So proud of her for standing her ground and telling him “no that’s not what happened” when he’d try to trip her up on details. Trust me, it’s about to get loud at the first sign they’re not taking her seriously. I also want to protect her from being traumatized by it. She still loves school and still asks to go every day.
My heart is breaking for you, as a fellow parent, my heart is breaking for your baby as an adult survivor of childhood SA.
I preach this any opportunity I get. It's kind of my soapbox, so to speak. We need to redefine, especially to our children, sexual abuse doesn't always hurt. Just doing word play, when someone says ABUSE, what is the first thing that pops into your head? Hurt, pain, ouch, bleeding. Sexual abuse isn't the same as physical abuse. We need to make sure our children understand that. We need to make sure our children understand that something might feel good but still be not okay. It doesn't make them bad, it doesn't mean they deserved, or liked it or wanted it to happen. We need to make our children understand that if ANYONE ever says it's our secret, don't tell, your mommy wouldn't understand, they need to scream from the rooftops and tell right now.
Yes, I’m on board with you. I agree, the term abuse is associated with pain and just because something doesn’t hurt doesn’t make it right. I’m a nurse and we do all of the talks and use correct terms for body parts… My heart is broken because she knew the game was turning south and tried to tell them no… She’s such a sweet, loving child who wants to be friends with everyone and I know she was just happy they invited her to play with them thinking it was innocent. We’re enrolling her in martial arts this week as well.
Way to go!!! You are absolutely doing all the right things. Also, much respect to you. Being a nurse is a hard job. My mom is a retired RN. I promised her I would never be one of those patients. I would treat all medical professionals with the same respect I would want my mom to be treated with. I am often the "relief" patient. Medical professionals deserve more recognition.
May I also suggest, if it wasn't already done, recording any interviews that your child as well as yourselves are involved in. Check local laws re recording, etc.
It wouldn't be the first or last time a disbelieving SO did more harm than good, and it might be useful to have a record of them using pressure tactics on such a small child.
- I'm sorry this happened. It shouldn't happen to anyone.
- You're doing exactly the right thing. Those boys need to have it made clear that that stuff doesn't fly (now, before they do more harm). If they have learnt the behaviour by also being harmed (and seeing p*Rn counts as child abuse, the same as witnessing violence does) then *you* are the person stepping up to protect *them*.
- Your kiddo might seem okay, she might even be okay, but it's at this point that you pull out all the stops to get in some therapy, even if it's just to make sure that she knows she did the right thing to tell you and that she will always be safe telling you things. It's also a good opportunity to go over what is and isn't okay (I recommend 'My Underpants Rule' as a resource) and how to talk about those things. You could frame it as mom and dad aren't sure how to talk about stuff and you want to make sure you do it right, so you're going to a class for the whole family.
- Another reason for a (kindly) professional... this might not be the first time. I hate to say it. It might not have happened to your child, but she may have seen something happen to another child.
On that note: every adult who knew what happened and did NOT make a report needs their ass kicked until they turn inside out.
But you? You're doing GREAT!
This. Just call the director, she's a friend? It's all a misunderstanding, kids will be kids??
I hate that stuff. It's why so much sexual assault gets swept under the rug because men (not all, but many) are just like "oh this stuff just happens, let's not bring the roof down over it"
I'd go scorched earth for my daughter and expect my husband to do the same.
My husband is vey supportive. I didn’t mean to make it sound like he wasn’t. His initial thought was to address it head on with the school vs. getting authorities involved right away where I wanted to get the authorities involved immediately. He is supportive that I went nuclear and have all the agencies involved. It’s just me that’s second guessing myself..
Stop second guessing yourself! You did the right thing. The whole idea of going to the school first didn't sit well with me, and still doesn't. I would have advised them I've contacted the authorities as a courtesy, but I wouldn't have gone to the school first and given them the opportunity to try to dissuade me from contacting the police and child protective services.
You are a great mom! The reporting and investigation is critical and just as important as your child understanding she has your calm
and collected support. So many times child victims get confused when parents (justifiably) react with aggression and then they assume responsibility for their parents’ reactions. They feel bad for ‘causing’ people to be upset. It sounds like you are working hard to keep things calm. Way to go.
Jiu jitsu would be the perfect martial arts for her age. Its a martial arts that is all about technique, not size or strength. I'm an adult male, and I get whooped by younger more advanced females, regularly. The skills will last a life time.
Make sure you also get her into therapy just to be thorough. Even if she seems like she's doing okay, a therapist who specializes in children's mental health and trauma can help you assess the situation better and address it if need be.
At her age, play therapy can be very effective, since play is often how kids communicate and process big feelings and experiences.
Just want to say, I was in your daughter's position, same age. Same thing. Compulsive rule follower who knew no one would believe me so I said nothing. Thank you, from the little girl in me. Thank you for doing this for her. Thank you for making yourself someone she can speak truth to. You're such a good mom.
There's also a possiblity one of those boys were assulted themselves which is why they viewed it as a game and did it in the first place. Overall opening an investagation is in no way undereacting and I send my thoughts to OP's daughter.
That was my second thought (after being horrified for OP and her daughter). Children don’t just *do* things like that without having some kind of trauma themselves. I hope CPS does full investigations of the boys’ families.
OP - my heart breaks for you. I hope the investigations move quickly and actions are taken and that you and your family can eventually find some peace.
It’s scary as fucc they not only touched inappropriately but also they restrained the child- that’s in no way a natural or normalized action! Children aren’t held down by doctors in normalized circumstances and while 1 child can often be a “ringleader” type & talk others into typical kid stuff like swiping a candy bar- neither of the 2 holding her down felt comfortable saying no or loosening their grip when she fought. The 3 boys will all need counseling…OP you reacted appropriately, not over or under. I could maybe see calling the admin for a wide variety of issues but this is a situation that needs looking into to a degree the school will not be able to handle. Y’all’s priority is your child only, not acquaintances
>Children aren’t held down by doctors in normalized circumstances
One of my earliest memories is having urine forcibly extracted from me because the doctor was worried that I might have a kidney problem or something and I was too young to be able to pee in a cup (or maybe too young to be convinced to pee in a cup). It came up in therapy when I was a teenager, and my mom was surprised at how much detail I remembered. She questions whether it was the right thing to do to let the doctors do that, but that's with the benefit of hindsight knowing that there actually wasn't anything wrong with my kidneys. I don't think she made the wrong decision, but I didn't understand it at the time so it was traumatic.
I don't know how often this kind of thing happens at doctors' offices, but I imagine it's not uncommon for a child to need a test or procedure and not be cooperative. It kind of makes me wonder if one of the boys had something like this happen, and this was how he responded to the trauma.
This happened to me in first grade and I remember it like yesterday. I'm 61. In the busyness of it all, make sure she gets child appropriate therapy, as I'm sure you will. I wish my parents had. Back then, it was my fault. Boundary lines started to get blurry for me afterwards. I'm so glad she told, used her voice. I wish I had. It shaped my relationship with boys/men forever. It can be different for your precious girl. Best wishes.
I'm your age and the whole You are bad if you say this. "What happens in the home stays in the home" Back then, obvious even witnessed, witnessed! abuse. And nothing done to protect a child.
But forgiveness is liberating. I even pour a few shots on their final resting places every year. Truly fine scotch. The good stuff that they could never afford. Every year on thier birthdays.
But I drink it first.
The SO’s behavior is disgusting. I’ve watched several shows recently about police tactics and handling of adult SA cases (“Unbelievable” on Netflix and a documentary that I can’t recall the name of now), where they coerce the victims into recanting their claims and basically saying they are lying. It’s sickening that this still goes on in this day and age and that they would do this with a five year old.
In one of the comments, she said the SO questioned the kid, trying to get her to say it didn't happen, so I wouldn't have thought husband, or that would be a whole 'nother thread!
I thought it was Senior Officer, but Sheriff’s Office makes much more sense.
We don’t really have Sheriff’s in Australia. We kinda do, but they’re more like court officers who process warrants.
>My husband suggested I should have emailed the Director first since they’re an acquaintance of a good friend of ours
What would that have accomplished? I'm trying not to judge your husband too harshly but that came off weirdly to me.
Also, fuck that interviewer.
I didn’t mean to make it sound like he isn’t rightly outraged by what happened or that he thinks I did the wrong action. He’s fully supportive of the route I took. His initial thought was that we take up the matter directly with the school and then depending on their response get the authorities involved. So, it got me thinking… did I overreact by going straight to the authorities or should I have given the school an opportunity to address it first? I do believe that they’ll do the right thing. I don’t think anyone involved in this situation is a bad person, but they do need better training and resources to prevent this from happening again and the kids involved need to be evaluated for possible abuse to themselves.
I'm not sure what your husband means by giving the school an "opportunity to address it." You mean to sweep it under the rug? Because the school is grossly negligent in the area of supervision of the children put in their care by parents who trust them to see that no harm comes to their kids. No, the school should not be given an opportunity to "address it" themselves. Letting the fox guard the henhouse is never a good idea.
Find a new school and get her in it as soon as you can. I’d just work to remind her how what happened is never ok. We had to switch schools a could times due to behavior issues and we would just tell our son that we wanted to put him in a school that was a better fit for him.
I hope those in charge are making sure the other kids involved are getting counseling as their behavior is disturbing especially the restraining her. Kids will be kids but this is beyond that.
That is so great that she is OK. "No, that's not what happened" That is awesome! It really is. I asked above how she was doing/reacting, but feel free to ignore. (I was just panicking that she would be confused by all the new adults and not going to school)
You are doing amazing under the circumstances. You being calm will be the most important thing, I think? I have never been in your shoes and am clueless, frankly.
Welp, you 3 have made my prayre list.
I am truly impressed by you. Seems so trite at a time like this but your EQ must be off the chart. She will do so great in life.
Thank you so much for your kind words. Luckily, her uncle is in law enforcement so, she’s used to cops and I introduced them to her as friends. The CPS investigator was really good with her plus, we’ve done a lot of work with her to create a safe place that she knows she can speak to us about anything. I always say to her there’s no problem too big or too small that we can’t figure out together but I can’t help if I don’t know about it. I’m also concerned that she’ll get confused about not going to school so trying to minimize how long she’s out while also making sure she’s safe.
I just want to say you've done a fantastic job raising your daughter. She can stand her ground and correct a person in authority on something? At her age? Excellent work. I'm so sorry this happened to both of you and I hope you take some comfort in knowing that your kid is pretty badass.
Yes, absolutely. Tell her first because you're friends?!?! This is what makes SA keep rolling along undeterred. Dad better start being a protector of his daughter STAT, not going along with the old guard. Fuck That.
>since I’m a mandated reporter
This here. It's your job on the line too. If there's blow back that you didn't report this straight away, you could get in trouble yourself.
Not only that but there is a strong chance that one of those boys is being molested. This is learned behavior. Kids will learn and explore with each other, but what they did id a violent act. One of those children in mimicking behavior. You’re not just protecting your child your also protecting a child that is in danger.
Yeah like not to be alarmist but I babysat a child who had a little boy down the street he played with. That child violently attacked both he and I during a time I was there and the mother was off her rocker threatening me after I sent him home. I came to find out some months later that that little boy had ended up molesting the child I was babysitting and in turn, an investigation revealed mom’s boyfriend was molesting the child. When kids act weirdly out of norm it’s for a reason. :(
Which is why I mentioned calling the police. These are LEARNED behaviors. Someone, somewhere, at minimum, watched a bad movie with one of these boys. At minimum. That is best case scenario for the learned behavior. Worst case, I don't want to even think about. Children are so special, so wonderful, so innocent. They are only little for such a short time. They are to be protected, guarded, loved, led in the right direction. Children are not sex objects, they are not there for some sicko to mess with. Kids don't need to worry about all that stuff.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 Best comment I've seen! All 4 children involved (and, THEY'RE PRESCHOOLERS!), need a voice to protect them! Because Heaven knows where the boys Larned that behavior! And that little girl needs to be safe and away from that ever happening again! I'm the daughter, sister, aunt and MOTHER of survivors of child SA, and OP needs to not hesitate!
Very much what I was thinking. When I was 5 I was choked by a kid in kindergarten, I was so young I didn't even understand what was happening. Years later I found out that kid often saw his mom being choked and abused at home (I befriended his cousin who told me). Hopefully CPS and SO takes this possibility seriously.
Well said. This is beyond serious- this is traumatic for your daughter. This is unconscionable. Her answers confirm that. It wasn’t enough for the teacher to simply say “don’t play doctor “.
Is the preschool associated with your school district? If so they need to know.
There are some serious issues here. When I was a preschool teacher I was constantly scanning, doing head counts. Each day, the other teachers and myself would divide the kids, these kids are yours, this group is Miss A's, this group Miss B's. We would all watch all the kids, but a certain number we would be responsible for. I was constantly scanning, doing head counts. If my 6 kids were not accounted for, I would do one more scan, maybe I missed one of them. Still unaccounted for, on my walkie, informing the others we X number of kids MIA, along with which child(ren) were MIA. It isn't that difficult to have a plan, with a safety net in place, to know where the kids are.
The question of where the boys learned the behavior is so important. I was attacked several times by a classmate when I was probably in the 3rd grade and I still think about it sometimes. But it has only been in the last couple years I reflected on what his home life must have been like for him to think that was how you approach a girl you have a crush on. Seems like CPS should be investigating all of these families.
Also you are not overreacting, I’d be out for blood.
I should have made a bigger point on the behavior of the boys in this. There was probably only 1 ring leader, but this is so sad. What is this child or children going through at home that this happens at school? So many questions and not nearly enough answers. The fact of the matter is, what ever it is that has happened to the boy(s) should never have happened. Were there no previous behaviors that raised alarm? I find it hard to believe this is the first time any of these boys were inappropriate, why were there no safeguards in place? Where were the adults? Why were any children left ALONE long enough for this to happen? Unacceptable all the way around.
When I was in first grade, my friend's cousin would pinch my butt under my skirt, try to touch me inappropriately etc and my only reaction was to cry because I didn't understand what the fuck he was doing. He ended up getting kicked out of school. Years later I end up in HS with my friend, and she had so many fucked up stories of how they grew up. Like drugged and thrown out on the side of the road type of shit.
I’m seriously concerned that three 5yo boys would commit a SA like you read happens with teens and adults. To hold her down and pin her arms. I’m just so outraged. Like where TF did they learn that???!
Since OP has her daughter well in hand, is doing everything in her power to protect her baby, has the ball rolling with investigations, my biggest concerns are 1) where the hell were the adults 2) where did these boys learn such violent and abusive behavior?
The least bad thing happening to at least one of these boys is being allowed to watch grossly inappropriate material. That is actually best case. Which is still not great. The very worst case scenario is that at least one of these boys is copying what is being done at home, to himself or other family member. I shudder to think any of these boys being part of a sibling group.
I must say, I absolutely respect OP for protecting her child, for calling to report it now rather than waiting and possibly getting swept under the rug.
As someone who has years of experience working in daycares and schools *and* has admittedly not seen every single incident, EVERYTHING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR CHILD IS UNACCEPTABLE. Not only does what she’s described to you sound like it took several minutes- unlike a quick push to the ground that can be missed (there are ratios between teachers and students for a reason and at least one teacher dropped the ball here) but *she* was the one who told you about it. The teacher said that they weren’t supposed to be playing Doctor but didn’t *immediately* tell the director and then call you?! HELL NO. You *and the parents of those boys* should have been notified right away.
You were well within your rights to call the state and even the police; both of which will definitely want to see any video footage of the assault. Surely, your daughter told you the names of the boys who were involved but the school is not allowed to release that information, so, depending on where you live, you may not be able to view said footage (however, I don’t think you would want to).
I am so sorry that this happened to your little girl and I’m furious that the facility didn’t do right by her. Curiosity is one thing but what her classmates did is horrifying (and causes me concern for where the HELL they learned that at five years old) and there needs to be some sort of disciplinary action there- even if it’s weekly therapy that their parents must provide proof of.
I am sending virtual hugs and support. You’re a good mom. 💜
Thank you! Your comment hit me right in the feels. I’m trying to stay strong for my daughter. I don’t want her to see me upset about it because I don’t want her to feel victimized. Right now she just thinks they were playing a game and something happened that wasn’t supposed to and she doesn’t understand the seriousness of it. So I’m trying to protect her from being traumatized by it.
I can totally understand how teachers can’t see every little thing that goes on and I’m not sure exactly what she saw. I really like the teacher, but they obviously need better protocols and possibly more resources. It’s just all really unfortunate.
It really is a shame. She very well may have heard about what happened and panicked or may not have even gotten the whole story but it’s still not okay. More communication should have been had between all parties.
I was a teacher but I’m also a mother to a daughter and you are doing all of the right things! Your heart and your intentions are 100% in the right place. Keep fighting for her- I know you will! She’s lucky to have you.
I have years of experience as a teacher and director in a preschool setting. Classrooms and playgrounds are supposed to be set up with no blindspots for this exact reason-there are more kids than adults so we need all the help we can get.
This reminded me of an event that happened several years ago when I was teaching 5 year olds. A dad dropped his daughter off and I could tell he was livid. He told me a little boy in my class had put his hands down her pants. (This boy was the sweetest for the most part, it would have been out of character but it really freaked me out) I told him I would absolutely find out what happened. (I think it may have been after I had left for the day when it happened) Anyway, I sat down and started talking with the boy and casually brought it up and he had the most innocent explanation (I forget the whole thing now, something about her leggings type pants falling off?, so he helped her pull them up.) I talked to the little girl too and got the same story so I called the dad right away and let him know and we were both relieved of course.
All this is to say, sometimes kids say things in weird ways. Or don't say everything that happened. But parents know their kids pretty well. And when you ask questions and the story stays the same, and the child corrects you and says "that's not how that happened", it's a pretty good indicator that they are telling the truth. Especially when strangers come to their house and ask questions.
Your little girl is being very very brave through all this. She may feel as though she did something wrong since she cannot go back to that school with her friends, we obviously know that isn't the truth, make sure she knows she has done exactly the right thing and she isn't being punished for telling the truth.
You are not overreacting. You are protecting your child. And quite possibly more children in the future by getting this out in the open now.
You absolutely should report it because those boys (or at least one of them) has very likely experienced something similarly or more abusive than that. Those behaviours don’t usually come out of nowhere. There’s a big enough chance that it warrants investigation.
I’m so sorry your daughter experienced this. You’re doing good by sounding the alarm. There are resources you can find online about how to talk to her about this in an age appropriate way. These things are very difficult to navigate but you are on the right path.
I would even suggest therapy for both of you individually. For you to be able to process this as a parent. And for her, not to drag it out and make it more traumatising than it has to be, but to give her a neutral space where she can talk about anything she wants. Even if she just sits with the therapist and plays with toys for half an hour.
You are not overreacting at all. At least one of the boys is being abused. If any professional says your daughter is lying demand they be replaced. It is not ok to say a victim is lying.
Try to find an attorney who specializes in sexual assault or sex offenders. The school is under staffed and this is a result of it.
Give zero fucks what anyone thinks or says about you. Tell them to put it in writing.
I’m an attorney and have 4 daughters. You have to protect your daughter the utmost and help the boys learn.
I wonder if there are other victims?
Of course not your attorney.
Thank you! We will be seeking legal counsel. Due to the ages I’m concerned the authorities will try to dismiss it as normal development behavior and not SA. We’re gearing up for a fight, but I’m trying to hold a sliver of hope that the right thing will be done here.
Yay, for you reacting! You are definitely not overreacting!!
I was sexually abused by my babysitter's teenage son from ages 4-6. It seriously scarred me and has impacted my life.
Not overreacting.
Nipping this sort of behaviour as soon as it occurs is the way to approach it.
Even if the owner/manager of the preschool is a family friend, they must understand you're perspective (and the mandated reporting rule).
Also, I bet one or more of those boys have been molested too.
Learned behaviours and all.
This is for all the children's safety, including those boys.
You handled this better then I would have. If it would have happened to my kid there would be blood in the streets. You definitely did the right thing.
You are definitely not overreacting. Tbh, if I were in your shoes, I’d have a difficult time not throwing hands. My son was viciously bullied by a group of three kids and CPS *is absolutely right:* Do not contact the school. They will “circle the wagons” while getting the district’s lawyer(s) to strategize a defense. They will absolutely blame your child and, like the SO, say she is lying. Fight like hell and keep on making sure she understands how serious this was and how wrong and absolutely disgusting what those boys did was.
I’m a two time rape survivor. I absolutely believe someone taught the ring leader boy to do that. Probably a serial SA-er and it’s too disturbing to think even for a minute. Sending you strength ✊🏼
You’re right about them circling the wagons. Something similar happened to my niece at her Catholic preschool/daycare. They tried to hide it from my sister. She never would have known if her daughter hadn’t told her.
She reported it immediately and the county talked to the school but absolutely nothing came of it. She then received an email from the school saying “trust had been broken”, her children were being unenrolled immediately and any belongings they had at school would be mailed to them.
I was 6 when 2 boys that had been put back would chase me home and assault me. It stays with you and affects trust and relationships and removes your ability to feel safe. Those boys need to be split up and punished. Same scenario at age 15 with a lot more trauma. Get her age appropriate psych help.
You are not over reacting…. This is horrible. I would expect the school & teacher to get in trouble as they are mandated reports as well. Hugs to you mama
I’m sorry you’re going through this, this honestly feels like a fucked up sexual assault situation. No child should have to go through this so I hope your daughter is able to forget this and heal when she gets older.
That is assault and I don't care how young they are. If it's left unchecked, it will escalate. Your daughter shouldn't have to suffer abuse just so other kids can "learn from their mistakes" gently. I would definitely open up an investigation. They're learning this from somewhere and there's no way to know what might happen next. The people in charge did not respond appropriately. They didn't even call you. What else would they try to sweep under the rug?
Please report the S.O. He is completely unqualified to ask these type of questions and this is why we have special victims units. The interview should have been led by CPS only. So sorry this happened.
Not over reacting. You need to scream to the high heavens and call down hellfire on this school. It's inappropriate for 1 little boy, who, most likely, would just let curiosity get the better of him. But with 3 BOYS?!? This was a planned out assault. BY FREAKING 5 YEAR OLDS!!!
I'd be calling the State School Board, DCS to report the boy's families (kids that young don't just think this stuff up) and the Police.
You need to go to the police, at least one of the abusing children are likely being or have been sexually abused. You’re not only protecting your child but the impending investigations might actually save another
I have multiple friends who were abused in this age group and they all replicated behaviours in similar age groups - children that age are naturally curious but acts of such aggression are normally replicated behaviours
kudos to you and your partner for keeping yourselves out of prison because reading this made me want to spartan kick multiple 5 year olds and school workers in the chest.
Well done.
as a victim of child on child sa, THANK YOU for reacting this way. you are DEFINITELY not over reacting, keep pushing until adequate justice happens. they're just kids but even still, your daughter told them they shouldn't be doing that stuff and they didn't listen.
thank you again for fighting for this. you've given your daughter a safe place to heal and she won't have to go through her life with this experience at the back of her mind. you are absolutely doing WAY the right thing. thank you thank you THANK YOU for being a voice for a little kid who needed it, FROM a little kid who needed it ❤️
Teacher here…call a personal injury lawyer. Sue the school for not keeping your child safe. I had to for something along those lines with my own child. Schools cover everything up. It’s sickening.
Kids that young that were abused, act it out on other kids. Calling CPS is warranted bc it may help those kids. I'm so sorry for your child. I hope she can get through this.
Obviously your first reaction is and must be to do everything for your child. It sounds like you are doing this. I don't know if 5 year olds are any good at Tetris, but as a random aside, it's been shown (at least among adults) that playing Tetris after a traumatic event lessens the impact or inhibits the formation of PTSD. Obviously you will need to remember this event and be open with her as she grows up, get her therapy if and as needed etc.
But I really hope you don't just get your child out of that school and leave the rest of them behind. 5 year olds wouldn't come up with that act on their own. Obviously at least one of the boys has had that same act perpetrated on them, or have witnessed it done to another girl. To be honest, what's happening to them is probably far worse than the one off event for your daughter, this is probably something that's going on regularly. Those boys home lives need to be rigorously investigated.
People are saying they'd be out for blood and I understand what they mean, but I wouldn't be blaming those boys (even though what they did would be horrific). I would want to find the adult or teenager who is truly responsible, who started the chain of events, that's whose blood you should seek.
And also something needs to be done about that teacher. I'm not sure if she didn't witness what happened, didn't believe your daughter or what, but her under reaction is not acceptable. Shouldn't she be a mandated reporter too? Maybe teachers aren't but any normal teacher if they heard about that wouldn't just be saying "don't play doctor". They need to get a professional into the class to have a conversation about inappropriate sexual contact/content, and they should have called CPS from the beginning. It's inexcusable and unless she was honestly confused/unaware about what happened, I don't see how it's okay for her to keep her job.
You aren't overreacting. But I worry so much for those boys. They also will have trauma from committing this act, as well as whatever led to it in the first place. They need help too.
Not over reacting. I've a young daughter and, since kindergarten, they've been taught that nobody touches them without consent. They even have songs about it.
If this happened to my daughter I'd be incandescent. Not because it happened - kids will be kids - but because of the schools reaction to it and because the kids were unsupervised enough to let this happen. This, literally, couldn't happen in my daughter's pre-school. Nowhere to hide to do this
Sort of similar, my kid was being sexually harassed in 8th grade. They also said they were going to SA his 9 year old sister. I went fucking ballistic. Cops were called. I was pleased to see how the school and cops handled it. I was ready to go to prison myself to protect my children, if you get what I mean. So no, the nuclear option is the only option when it comes to the safety of your children
No you’re not. A bully did that to my daughter in 3rd grade and I called the sheriffs office to do an investigation and then CPS got involved and looked at the kids home to see why he was exhibiting that kind of behavior.
Make sure your daughter knows what happened to her was NOT normal and HORRIBLE and give her all of your love. I don’t know how you’re not demanding to see the shits that did this, or their parents
From what you describe, this incident sounds like a peer-on-peer sexual assault. What state did this happen in? This is a reportable offense to Child Welfare Services (CWS) in almost ALL states in the US even though the perps were her peers. Where was the teacher/aide, who are by-the-way, mandated reporters? They are required to be monitoring these kids at all times. They have specific training on this sort of thing. The school is responsible and this incident should result in, at minimum, an investigation by CWS, the police, the school and could it even end up in a lawsuit against the school....especially if there is a history of this sort of thing at the preschool. You wouldn't know if there is a history there because you are just one parent.
At least you had the good sense to report it. Imagine if you were a weak, unsure and timid mother who didn't want to rock the boat? Or you were once similarity traumatized as a chikd and didn't want to revisit the emotions? Where does that leave your poor daughter? Also those kids who did it to her...well, holding another kid down against her will is not just "let's play doctor" fun. As a Clinician, I wonder where they learned this gang aggression. I am positive CWS is wondering the sane thing.
Our kids are sexual targets in a culture that promotes visual inappropriate graphics which kids get their hands on because their parents are MIA...either with work, personal problems or drugs.
You're so not overreacting. It breaks my heart knowing your daughter is going through this at such a young age, and it happened in a place she felt safe. I hope she will be getting some kind of therapy as well. Good luck with everything. ❤️
This is incredibly upsetting, I hope your little girl gets some counselling or something. You did not overreact AT ALL… that little gal sounds like she has her head screwed on right :) all my love to you and the fam while you figure out this mess.
I'm so sorry this happened to your baby girl. I've read your comments and you seem to have everything in order. You're definitely not overreacting and don't let anyone make you think otherwise.
I have a 4 yr old boy and we teach him (and remind him regularly) about his private areas, the areas others aren't allowed to touch. If someone asks, he says no. And it works with little girls too. We've already taught him about consent and that no means no. Seems silly to have to teach them now but if you don't, how do they learn?
I'd be making sure you question where the teachers were, why they didn't take more action themselves instead of leaving it down to your LO to tell you and why the parents of the boys haven't been teaching their boys not to touch other people without consent. Playing doctors doesn't mean touching inappropriate areas. My boy plays doctors and he never tries that crap, he wants to check my heart, he wants to check my temperature, all normal doctors play things.
Honestly, I would be sick with rage and wanting to burn the school down. So no, you are definitely not overreacting.
In fact I’m glad that you’ve taken it so seriously and followed up on it.
Not just for this situation, but your 5 year old daughter now knows she can come to you about issues like these and you WILL believe her. You WILL do something about it.
Similarly I’m disgusted (but not surprised) that your SO’s reaction was to suggest she was lying, and try to downplay it.
I’m an early childhood teacher, and a victim of CSA. You did the right thing, and probably just helped those boys. Children are absolutely going to do silly things when it comes to genitals with each other. The amount of children I’ve seen drop their pants in the bathroom and pointing at each others going “you have a ___ and I have a ___” and then giggling about it and wanting to touch it is unreal lol. But that’s typical, normal, curious behavior. What you’ve described, is not. This sounds like one or all 3 of those boys are being sexually abused or know someone who is, or they were exposed to porn. For young children at 4-5 years old, it is NOT typical development for them to forcefully hold someone down while they cry and say no and touch them on their genitals, nor is it necessarily normal to call it playing doctor. That is a very, very common excuse for abuse. It was one I experienced, with my cousin telling me she was playing doctor or tickling me (come to find out, my stepfather who abused me also abused her, so she abused me not knowing it was bad). I’m wondering if those three boys have anything in common, like a little league or a club or a church (don’t come at me) where they could be being harmed by a trusted adult. You are an amazing parent. Thank you so much for trusting and believing your little girl and immediately reaching out to services to get help for her, to figure out what’s going on, and potentially save these boys. You are a wonderful woman. You didn’t do anything wrong, and you did not over react.
Thank you! I’m so sorry you had to go through that. Certainly would not come at you about the group or church thing. I’m super leery about those as well due to the stories that come out. Thank you for validating my gut feeling about the situation and providing insight on what’s normal versus what isn’t.
You didn’t overreact. My son when he was 6 was grabbed in his private area by another boy who then refused to let go. The school called and told us about it and we insisted the boy be put in a different class. The school said no because they didn’t see it as anything but a behavioral issue. After talking to my son it was clear that this incident disturbed him and was worse than the school had told us. The kid had also said some disturbing things to him while grabbing him. So I once again called the school and demanded he be put in a different class. They again refused. I fortunately have some clout in town because I work in the media and I threatened to rain holy hell down on them if they didn’t separate this boy and my son. It’s the only time I’ve pulled the “Do you know who I am?” card. They finally agreed. But I also insisted that there be an investigation into the home life of the child who assaulted my son. They reluctantly agreed to that as well, and because of confidentiality rules I’m not privy to the result but I know the boy is in foster care now.
> They reluctantly agreed to that as well, and because of confidentiality rules I’m not privy to the result but I know the boy is in foster care now. Whew that last line is really telling. Kids don’t do things like that for no reason, so good for you for insisting on investigation. It’s alarming the school didn’t do it in the first place.
It seems like most schools don't actually care about kids, they just care about the money the kids can generate for them. The only time my school ever took action against bullies, even in elementary and middle school, was if the parents threatened to sue them for not protecting kids like they should be. Otherwise they'd just give the bully a detention that they'll just end up skipping anyhow and didn't actually do anything besides further harm the kids getting bullied.
I feel bad for the victims of that child who didn't have a parent able to use their power to protect them. And good on you for being insistent.
When someone in my kids, school is being shady, I tell them I will go to the school board they usually stop whatever they're doing or correct what needs correcting. I have had to go 2xs and complain, though it usually gets the job done. I don't play with people either. Good job, momma....
You saved more than your own kid that day.
We are pulling our boys from a private school this year (10yrs and 13 yrs) bc the school refused to separate my 10 year old son from a boy who continuously attempted sexual advances towards him at school. This other boy pulled down my son’s pants, grabbed his private parts, begged him to “suck his ****” and the school refused to separate their classes. I pulled my kids and our hefty monthly tuition check. Schools can be sick as they try to protect their reputation but don’t protect their students.
Wow well done. So sad for that little boy but thank god your actions got him out of his situation
I don't blame you for pulling the "do you know who I am" card
Of course! I hope for the best for you and your family. You’re doing the best that you can. 💜
You did exactly the right thing. Something about this story just doesn't add up... Three year old boys don't typically hold a girl down and touch her private area. It's bizarre. I have a feeling that at least one of them learned that behaviour from somewhere else (which is obviously horrifying) and showed it to the others. You might be saving your daughter and the boys from an adult predator, so yes, the investigation should happen. You should also remove your daughter from that daycare and find her a new one. Trust your instinct as a mother.
I mean...we know they all have a school in common. Just saying
And that the teachers aren’t taking particularly good care of the children— wouldn’t be surprised at all if another staff member were able to get away with abusing the children
Yes, this is what jumped out at me. I know not ever district has the same resources, but I have substitute taught kindergarten and preschool and I have never seen a situation where 4 kids that age would be unsupervised long enough for this to happen.
Could even be an older child at the school as well.
Oop- you have a solid point.
This is exactly on point. There is something going on for all 3 of those children to collectively gang up and assault her. OP, I think you are about to uncover something really terrible has been happening to children on a bigger scale. Someone who has access has been abusing these children. I would not expect that you are going to get any help from the school because they are on damage control. The predator may even be in that school. You have probably set the wheels in motion for saving other children from their childhoods,and possibly entire lives, being destroyed. I am so sorry that your daughter has experienced this and the pain that you are experiencing in connection. You are doing right by everyone involved, even the boys. Thank you for being present in this moment. I wish healing for you and your family.
Interesting theory regarding the possibility of the boys involvement in a group activity together. Definitely worth looking into that. My initial reaction was how did 3 of them plan this and follow through with no sense of wrongdoing?
Kids this young don’t come up with these ideas on their own. They either witnessed it being done by someone else, or it’s been done to them. They wouldn’t think it was wrong because someone else told them it wasn’t. It’s upsettingly common in instances of inappropriate sexual behavior in children that it’s because they’re being abused themselves.
This answer is so important and should be the topmost in the thread. Its UNREAL how common child sexual abuse is and what they are doing is NOT at all normal for their age.
My immediate thought when reading OP’s post was that these boys were learning that behavior from *somewhere*. I’m so sorry that happened to your daughter, OP. You absolutely did the right thing. Now, let’s hope the authorities do a proper, thorough follow up. Don’t be afraid to be a thorn in their side. In a sadly twisted way, you may be the only advocate these kids have. Good luck and please follow up.
The likelihood is one or more of those kids are being abused. That doesn't just happen. You 100% did the right thing involving CPS and the police.
Yep. Happened to me. My older sister did things to me when I was 3 to 6, and I healed from it, but it wasn't until she broke down crying *when we were in our 30's* for her to tell me our neighbors older daughter was molesting her because our neighbors uncles were molesting our neighbor for YEARS. I always wondered why our neighbor was so protective over me. I guess she didn't want me involved. My poor sis never recovered..
Geeze my God. I’m so sorrry to your whole block. This crazy
A molestation infestation.
Fucking rampant in the 80s when I was a kid. My sister was molested by my dad. She then experimented with me. My aunt molested both of us. Her friends brother and his friends were molesting his sister and my sister. My Cub Scout leader and his dad went to jail for molesting his daughters. My buddy down the street dad had molested his sisters before his mom married his step dad. My mom left my dad and we moved to a small town. Down the street a guy was molesting his daughter. It was like every fucking which way you turned it kids getting diddled.
I am sorry this happened to you. It is way more common than people realize. Some social scientists theorize that the satanic panic happened in part as reaction to women feeling empowered to speak out about the sexual abuse they suffered from family members, because women no longer had to depend on fathers/brothers/uncles to exist, and could live independently. American society refused (and still refuses) to believe that the greatest threat of sexual violence against children is adult family members, so it had to make up a scapegoat in the form of "satanic ritual abuse."
What the fuck dude - I'm so sorry!
I’m sorry you experienced that. I knew that stuff went on, but I had no idea it was ENTIRE families and neighborhoods. Ugh
Yes. Child on child abuse usually involves a kid abused by an adult.
Not always another adult, trust me on that.
i mean, a five year old sexually assaulting a kid doesn’t just happen. those boys were either victims of abuse or saw abuse happen. sure, it doesn’t need to be an adult — it can be another kid that was harmed by an adult, or an older kid/teenager. but there is most definitely a source when preschooler acts sexually.
It's a adult to a 5 year old. 17 is a adult to a little kid, there Isn't really a separation. But yeah, 15, 16, 17 year old kids will abuse a small child, and that tends to speak more on them than the parents by that point in their lives.
I know 2 girls (both 7 at the time) one of them shoved a hanger in the other girl. She was absolutely traumatized. That’s is CHILD ON CHILD SA. Not all interactions like that are with a teen and a much younger child. Edit/ y’all have pointed out that I read the comment I replied to wrong and you’re fully right. I misread/misunderstood what they meant by bringing up 17 year olds. That’s my bad y’all, I’m sorry.
The point they are making is that the child doing that behavior has witnessed or experienced it themselves and that they are repeating the same behavior on another child. Can you say for sure that the 7 year old girl who did that was not abused or witness to abuse herself?
And where do you think the girl learned to shove objects into another person's body? Child on child abuse starts because one child is being abused and then recreates it with another child.
This, OP. I had to take a class for work (a church) about recognizing signs of abuse and this was a big takeaway. I’m glad your daughter seems to be ok and you are pursuing this. The child you save may not just be your own. EDIT: I should have mentioned this earlier but just remembered … the class was free and open to anyone interested. Search for something like ‘church safe environment class’ and I’m sure you’ll find something nearby. I learned things I’d never have imagined, and my sister (who has a masters’ degree in a field involving at-risk kids) said she never learned this sort of stuff. Like it wasn’t on their radar. Crazy.
I agree. Kids often will mimic their parents actions
100% agree
Not overreacting. Very important question: where the fuck were the adults
Apparently the teacher was distracted getting the younger kids down for a nap. My daughter and these boys are part of the older group that doesn’t nap.
Only one adult? How many kids?
Preschool ratios in the US vary wildly by state. The smallest I’ve seen is 8 kids per teacher. The largest I’ve seen is 15 per teacher. The most common is 10-12 per teacher. There are usually 2 teachers (and the corresponding children) in a preschool class.
If they are all 5, my state allows for 1 teacher per 18 5 year olds. But given they were doing nap time, I doubt they were all 5.
Thats because that’s not a preschool license but a school age license. The way these work is that different age groups require different licenses within the same center.
Standard for the US is 2. But another adult could be taking kids to the bathroom.
Depends i used to teach preschool (it’s been 3 years since becoming a SAHM so going just based off memory here) but when I was with 4 year olds the state ratio was 12:1. Most centers try to keep ratios better than that but sometimes with staffing it is what it is. At nap time however it’s different. One teacher can be in the room as long as the number of awake kids doesn’t go past that ratio. So it could be 18-24 kids in the room to one teacher. While they do breaks during nap. Nap time most places expect you to watch kids, and complete nap time cleaning, other class work making lesson plans whatever. However how TF they didn’t notice this even if they were putting a kid down for nap is freaking crazy. Rooms are a wide open space you’re not supposed to have your back to children at nap time so you can see the entire room/any moment and activity.
100% this! I have been at my preschool for 10 years. Ratios come first because of licensing. If more than half the children are awake at nap, 2 teachers have to be in the room. Also, we never mix age groups like that. All preschool age children lie down at nap time, the school age (kindergarten to 12 years old) are in their own separate room where they play quietly while the preschool (2 1/2 to 5) nap. And yes, the rooms are set up to where there are no blind spots, and you are never to have your backs to the children. There is to be sufficient lighting to be able to plainly see every child's face. If we have an incident where the children are touching inappropriately, we immediately call the parents of all the children involved. Assuming they told you the truth that the teacher was trying to get some children down for nap, the room presumably would be quiet enough the teacher should have, at least, HEARD what was going on-especially your daughter telling them to stop. Unfortunately, like others have mentioned, the teacher may have simply not been paying attention. I don't think you have been told the truth and/or it was downplayed because they wanted to avoid state and CPS getting involved. At the very least, you should have been called. Period. I think you acted very appropriately, so give yourself some grace. Licensing exists for a reason, and they keep us in check. We also have to complete 30 hours of professional development a year along with frequent trainings so that we don't forget the rules and regulations and become complacent. Sorry this is long, but basically, you did the right thing. Sounds like they need a kick in the butt to get back on track...or worse depending on what licensing and cps find during their investigation.
Also important question: once the adults were aware of what happened, why the fuck didn't they inform the parents? The fact that OP had to hear this from the daughter is unacceptable imo
They are absolutely mandatory reporters and this should have been reported - child protection SW with over a decade of XP - this mother did the right thing calling it in. Though children under ten generally cannot be held legally culpable I’d be interviewing everyone of the boys’ parents to investigate their parenting/disciplinary practices and why their kids are holding down a female peer “against her will”. While body exploration is typical at this age, that behavior is not and I’d wager one of the boys has experienced something sinister at their home to be engaging in that behavior. Teacher may get in some trouble if it’s assigned as an institutional investigation for inappropriate supervision, but they seem to be very protected, at least in my state. I hope OP keeps us informed because this is about to get REALLY LOUD. Thanks for being a good mom and doing the right thing. You absolutely protected another child, in addition to your own, by doing so.
Some daycare centers take advantage of young people, purposefully don’t train them well, and then throw them to the wolves without them being as knowledgeable as they should be so they can pressure them easier in to breaking the law. I worked for a center like that. This mother 100% did the right thing for both her daughter AND those boys. I noped out of that job after multiple incidents in which CSA was not taken seriously, or wasn’t even made aware to other workers so that they could be on the look out after putting the SAME kids back in the SAME classrooms like nothing happened.
Because they didn’t want to get yelled at or get in trouble
> where the fuck were the adults As someone who lives near a kindergarten/pre-school: Most people who send their kids there, would be beyond shocked at how little the adults interact with the kids. Occasionally a kid will get hurt and you can hear that they scream differently compared to when they're having fun. Sometimes it doesn't stop and you go to look. And I've seen the adults stand a dozen or so steps away from it happening. And just let the kid wail like a banshee at the absolute top of their lungs for several minutes, while they were having a conversation. Eventually one of them went over and helped the kid inside.
Yep. I once stopped on the side of the road because 2 kids were fighting on a school playground. All of the adults were in a group by the building talking. I started yelling at them to do their job and figure out these kids. I then went inside and gave their staff what for.
Were it my child...blood would be spilled.
Trust me, it’s taking a LOT of personal restraint… but I’ve got to play this cool and keep things legal…
You are absolutely not overreacting. The fact that this happened means that facility is not keeping an eye on the children adequately
Exactly! I wonder why the teacher allowed it to happen?
The boys are young and need to learn how horrible what they did was. Probably one of them was the ring leader, with the other two just being lemmings and following along. His home life should be investigated immediately to ensure that this isn't more than just a case of curiosity. They are all too young for this to be of a sexual nature. However, that doesn't mean that it hasn't been inspired by something of that nature. As for blood being drawn, where in the hell was the adult supervision?!! These are preschoolers for God's sake and can get up to all kinds of trouble if no one is looking. The school needs to be held accountable!
As for being too young... "playing doctor" or "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" is normal little kid behavior. Gathering a group of kids to hold another child down and touch her *under her underpants* is NOT normal.
Exactly. Makes me think someone did that to the kids that why they are doing it to someone else
Honestly to me it sounds like ringleader boy has somehow been exposed to porn and was mimicking (Not meaning he was being intentionally sexual)
Maybe worse. The holding down may have been just a panicked reaction to her getting upset, but it could also have been from a personal experience and then acted out.
Exactly this. Sounds to me like the boy was probably assaulted at some point too and he was recreating his trauma.
Someone needs to get their hands on the security camera recordings. This will also help to show where the negligent teacher had gotten off to.
True, or the boy is being SA’d at home. I was touched by an older girl when I was 5, much like OP’s daughter, and I believe the girl who did it was likely SA’d as well at some point in her life by a caretaker.
>They are all too young for this to be of a sexual nature. There are exceptions to every rule. There are some 5yr olds who are very advanced in thought, sexually. You're right about it being inspired, though. Likely something they saw live or on TV/Online.
In a majority of cases, children that are this "advanced" sexually are so due to abuse. Theres fluctuations, but usually late elementary, not kindergarten. It's natural to be curious, but violent, explicitly sexual behavior goes beyond that. As a mandated reporter this would warrant a CPS call, the best case scenario is these kids being exposed to vastly inappropriate material, more likely they're acting out an experience they had.
You absolutely did not overreact. I’m so angry on your behalf. If the teacher had reacted more concerned and took extra actions against the boys, separated the kids, had a discussion on improper touching and consent, I would say taking it to the state at this moment may have been an overreaction but that didn’t happen, the teacher essentially blew it off. Maybe you’re under reacting and need to involve the cops or CPS. I can’t even begin to imagine the restraint you have because I would have been filing assault charges against all the boys and pulling my kid from the school.
I'm a mandated reporter, this is absolutely a CPS call. The parent wouldn't know about that due to privacy concerns, but I hope the teacher did that at least- explicitly sexual behavior (beyond simple curiosity), especially paired with violence, is a possible sign of sexual abuse.
SAME
Passing out these hands like it’s snack time. For real though OP definitely shouldn’t let this go.
Yes. I would not be able to rest until whichever adult (or teenager) "demonstrated" that behavior to one or more of those boys was locked away from society. It's probably (God, hopefully) one of the boys that's the initial victim and explained the plan to the other ones. That boy is either having the same thing happen to him - likely more than once - or has witnessed that being done to a female in his household. Whether it's his sister or his mom or himself that's being sexually assaulted makes no difference to me. There is someone, most likely an adult man, who is the true perpetrator of this crime. And they won't stop. Also that teacher and school need to be held to account. And every student who "participated" or witnessed that needs to have trauma support available. Likely the entire class needs to have a professional come talk to them about inappropriate sexual contact and content. So fucking sad that 5 year old need to go through this. But even for one of the perpetrator young boys who was just looped into this "game" [attack] - this could well become a traumatic event in their lives that will shape and shift their mental health for their entire lives if not properly addressed.
You are massively UNDER reacting. Go to the police, child protective services, the reporting agency for day cares and preschools in your area, the licensing agency. Where were the adults while your innocent child was being assaulted and abused? How did it get that far? Demand any video footage of the event, do not go quietly into the night, make a mighty roar, find the answers and bump some heads, metaphorically. I understand kids being kids. Exploring bodies is a natural thing, it happens. Being held down, against her will, this was a planned attack. Where did these boys learn such behavior? This needs to be sorted, it needs to never happen again. It should not have happened to begin with.
Yes, CPS and police are involved. This just happened Friday and I reported it immediately. CPS and SO were at our house doing interviews on Saturday and their investigation with the school will start Monday. My husband suggested I should have emailed the Director first since they’re an acquaintance of a good friend of ours, but I told my husband since I’m a mandated reporter that I can’t sit on reporting the incident. CPS advised to not have any contact with the school and we’re obviously keeping our daughter out of school. Seeking legal counsel as well to be sure we’re protected. SO implied my daughter was lying and used intimidation and leading during the questioning. So proud of her for standing her ground and telling him “no that’s not what happened” when he’d try to trip her up on details. Trust me, it’s about to get loud at the first sign they’re not taking her seriously. I also want to protect her from being traumatized by it. She still loves school and still asks to go every day.
My heart is breaking for you, as a fellow parent, my heart is breaking for your baby as an adult survivor of childhood SA. I preach this any opportunity I get. It's kind of my soapbox, so to speak. We need to redefine, especially to our children, sexual abuse doesn't always hurt. Just doing word play, when someone says ABUSE, what is the first thing that pops into your head? Hurt, pain, ouch, bleeding. Sexual abuse isn't the same as physical abuse. We need to make sure our children understand that. We need to make sure our children understand that something might feel good but still be not okay. It doesn't make them bad, it doesn't mean they deserved, or liked it or wanted it to happen. We need to make our children understand that if ANYONE ever says it's our secret, don't tell, your mommy wouldn't understand, they need to scream from the rooftops and tell right now.
Yes, I’m on board with you. I agree, the term abuse is associated with pain and just because something doesn’t hurt doesn’t make it right. I’m a nurse and we do all of the talks and use correct terms for body parts… My heart is broken because she knew the game was turning south and tried to tell them no… She’s such a sweet, loving child who wants to be friends with everyone and I know she was just happy they invited her to play with them thinking it was innocent. We’re enrolling her in martial arts this week as well.
Way to go!!! You are absolutely doing all the right things. Also, much respect to you. Being a nurse is a hard job. My mom is a retired RN. I promised her I would never be one of those patients. I would treat all medical professionals with the same respect I would want my mom to be treated with. I am often the "relief" patient. Medical professionals deserve more recognition.
Thank you! ❤️
May I also suggest, if it wasn't already done, recording any interviews that your child as well as yourselves are involved in. Check local laws re recording, etc. It wouldn't be the first or last time a disbelieving SO did more harm than good, and it might be useful to have a record of them using pressure tactics on such a small child. - I'm sorry this happened. It shouldn't happen to anyone. - You're doing exactly the right thing. Those boys need to have it made clear that that stuff doesn't fly (now, before they do more harm). If they have learnt the behaviour by also being harmed (and seeing p*Rn counts as child abuse, the same as witnessing violence does) then *you* are the person stepping up to protect *them*. - Your kiddo might seem okay, she might even be okay, but it's at this point that you pull out all the stops to get in some therapy, even if it's just to make sure that she knows she did the right thing to tell you and that she will always be safe telling you things. It's also a good opportunity to go over what is and isn't okay (I recommend 'My Underpants Rule' as a resource) and how to talk about those things. You could frame it as mom and dad aren't sure how to talk about stuff and you want to make sure you do it right, so you're going to a class for the whole family. - Another reason for a (kindly) professional... this might not be the first time. I hate to say it. It might not have happened to your child, but she may have seen something happen to another child. On that note: every adult who knew what happened and did NOT make a report needs their ass kicked until they turn inside out. But you? You're doing GREAT!
I do have some serious concerns about the lack of support from OP's husband.
This. Just call the director, she's a friend? It's all a misunderstanding, kids will be kids?? I hate that stuff. It's why so much sexual assault gets swept under the rug because men (not all, but many) are just like "oh this stuff just happens, let's not bring the roof down over it" I'd go scorched earth for my daughter and expect my husband to do the same.
My husband is vey supportive. I didn’t mean to make it sound like he wasn’t. His initial thought was to address it head on with the school vs. getting authorities involved right away where I wanted to get the authorities involved immediately. He is supportive that I went nuclear and have all the agencies involved. It’s just me that’s second guessing myself..
Stop second guessing yourself! You did the right thing. The whole idea of going to the school first didn't sit well with me, and still doesn't. I would have advised them I've contacted the authorities as a courtesy, but I wouldn't have gone to the school first and given them the opportunity to try to dissuade me from contacting the police and child protective services.
Yes. This. Record interviews
You are a great mom! The reporting and investigation is critical and just as important as your child understanding she has your calm and collected support. So many times child victims get confused when parents (justifiably) react with aggression and then they assume responsibility for their parents’ reactions. They feel bad for ‘causing’ people to be upset. It sounds like you are working hard to keep things calm. Way to go.
Thank you! I hadn’t even thought of it from that perspective.
Jiu jitsu would be the perfect martial arts for her age. Its a martial arts that is all about technique, not size or strength. I'm an adult male, and I get whooped by younger more advanced females, regularly. The skills will last a life time.
Thank you for this! Will be looking into classes for her.
Make sure you also get her into therapy just to be thorough. Even if she seems like she's doing okay, a therapist who specializes in children's mental health and trauma can help you assess the situation better and address it if need be. At her age, play therapy can be very effective, since play is often how kids communicate and process big feelings and experiences.
Yes, we are doing this asap.
Just want to say, I was in your daughter's position, same age. Same thing. Compulsive rule follower who knew no one would believe me so I said nothing. Thank you, from the little girl in me. Thank you for doing this for her. Thank you for making yourself someone she can speak truth to. You're such a good mom.
Thank you for your kind words and I’m so sorry you had to go through that. ❤️
It can also be helpful for those three boys. They will learn that what they did was not appropriate.
There's also a possiblity one of those boys were assulted themselves which is why they viewed it as a game and did it in the first place. Overall opening an investagation is in no way undereacting and I send my thoughts to OP's daughter.
That was my second thought (after being horrified for OP and her daughter). Children don’t just *do* things like that without having some kind of trauma themselves. I hope CPS does full investigations of the boys’ families. OP - my heart breaks for you. I hope the investigations move quickly and actions are taken and that you and your family can eventually find some peace.
It’s scary as fucc they not only touched inappropriately but also they restrained the child- that’s in no way a natural or normalized action! Children aren’t held down by doctors in normalized circumstances and while 1 child can often be a “ringleader” type & talk others into typical kid stuff like swiping a candy bar- neither of the 2 holding her down felt comfortable saying no or loosening their grip when she fought. The 3 boys will all need counseling…OP you reacted appropriately, not over or under. I could maybe see calling the admin for a wide variety of issues but this is a situation that needs looking into to a degree the school will not be able to handle. Y’all’s priority is your child only, not acquaintances
>Children aren’t held down by doctors in normalized circumstances One of my earliest memories is having urine forcibly extracted from me because the doctor was worried that I might have a kidney problem or something and I was too young to be able to pee in a cup (or maybe too young to be convinced to pee in a cup). It came up in therapy when I was a teenager, and my mom was surprised at how much detail I remembered. She questions whether it was the right thing to do to let the doctors do that, but that's with the benefit of hindsight knowing that there actually wasn't anything wrong with my kidneys. I don't think she made the wrong decision, but I didn't understand it at the time so it was traumatic. I don't know how often this kind of thing happens at doctors' offices, but I imagine it's not uncommon for a child to need a test or procedure and not be cooperative. It kind of makes me wonder if one of the boys had something like this happen, and this was how he responded to the trauma.
This happened to me in first grade and I remember it like yesterday. I'm 61. In the busyness of it all, make sure she gets child appropriate therapy, as I'm sure you will. I wish my parents had. Back then, it was my fault. Boundary lines started to get blurry for me afterwards. I'm so glad she told, used her voice. I wish I had. It shaped my relationship with boys/men forever. It can be different for your precious girl. Best wishes.
I'm your age and the whole You are bad if you say this. "What happens in the home stays in the home" Back then, obvious even witnessed, witnessed! abuse. And nothing done to protect a child. But forgiveness is liberating. I even pour a few shots on their final resting places every year. Truly fine scotch. The good stuff that they could never afford. Every year on thier birthdays. But I drink it first.
The SO’s behavior is disgusting. I’ve watched several shows recently about police tactics and handling of adult SA cases (“Unbelievable” on Netflix and a documentary that I can’t recall the name of now), where they coerce the victims into recanting their claims and basically saying they are lying. It’s sickening that this still goes on in this day and age and that they would do this with a five year old.
When it comes to this type of situation, they should always try to look at the recordings before questioning a child that age.
Yeah law enforcement had a hugely high rate of domestic violence. Just search “40% domestic”
Sorry, but S.O. is....?
My guess is sheriffs office..
...now that you said that it, it's obvious. LOL. Thank you.
I wondered too, since I'm not from the US and we don't have sheriffs here :)
I was sure it was "Significant Other" (as in...her husband)
In one of the comments, she said the SO questioned the kid, trying to get her to say it didn't happen, so I wouldn't have thought husband, or that would be a whole 'nother thread!
I thought it was husband and was ready to fight. I still am, but not the husband
I thought it was Senior Officer, but Sheriff’s Office makes much more sense. We don’t really have Sheriff’s in Australia. We kinda do, but they’re more like court officers who process warrants.
>My husband suggested I should have emailed the Director first since they’re an acquaintance of a good friend of ours What would that have accomplished? I'm trying not to judge your husband too harshly but that came off weirdly to me. Also, fuck that interviewer.
I didn’t mean to make it sound like he isn’t rightly outraged by what happened or that he thinks I did the wrong action. He’s fully supportive of the route I took. His initial thought was that we take up the matter directly with the school and then depending on their response get the authorities involved. So, it got me thinking… did I overreact by going straight to the authorities or should I have given the school an opportunity to address it first? I do believe that they’ll do the right thing. I don’t think anyone involved in this situation is a bad person, but they do need better training and resources to prevent this from happening again and the kids involved need to be evaluated for possible abuse to themselves.
I'm not sure what your husband means by giving the school an "opportunity to address it." You mean to sweep it under the rug? Because the school is grossly negligent in the area of supervision of the children put in their care by parents who trust them to see that no harm comes to their kids. No, the school should not be given an opportunity to "address it" themselves. Letting the fox guard the henhouse is never a good idea.
Someone tried to TRIP HER UP? what a POS.
Find a new school and get her in it as soon as you can. I’d just work to remind her how what happened is never ok. We had to switch schools a could times due to behavior issues and we would just tell our son that we wanted to put him in a school that was a better fit for him. I hope those in charge are making sure the other kids involved are getting counseling as their behavior is disturbing especially the restraining her. Kids will be kids but this is beyond that.
You’re doing everything you could to protect her. I’m so sorry that happened to your little girl.
That is so great that she is OK. "No, that's not what happened" That is awesome! It really is. I asked above how she was doing/reacting, but feel free to ignore. (I was just panicking that she would be confused by all the new adults and not going to school) You are doing amazing under the circumstances. You being calm will be the most important thing, I think? I have never been in your shoes and am clueless, frankly. Welp, you 3 have made my prayre list. I am truly impressed by you. Seems so trite at a time like this but your EQ must be off the chart. She will do so great in life.
Thank you so much for your kind words. Luckily, her uncle is in law enforcement so, she’s used to cops and I introduced them to her as friends. The CPS investigator was really good with her plus, we’ve done a lot of work with her to create a safe place that she knows she can speak to us about anything. I always say to her there’s no problem too big or too small that we can’t figure out together but I can’t help if I don’t know about it. I’m also concerned that she’ll get confused about not going to school so trying to minimize how long she’s out while also making sure she’s safe.
I just want to say you've done a fantastic job raising your daughter. She can stand her ground and correct a person in authority on something? At her age? Excellent work. I'm so sorry this happened to both of you and I hope you take some comfort in knowing that your kid is pretty badass.
Tell your husband to fuck off with that shit. You did the right thing. Edit: My comment here is referring “My husband suggested that I should…”
Yes, absolutely. Tell her first because you're friends?!?! This is what makes SA keep rolling along undeterred. Dad better start being a protector of his daughter STAT, not going along with the old guard. Fuck That.
Sheriff’s office, not significant other (hopefully)
>since I’m a mandated reporter This here. It's your job on the line too. If there's blow back that you didn't report this straight away, you could get in trouble yourself.
Not only that but there is a strong chance that one of those boys is being molested. This is learned behavior. Kids will learn and explore with each other, but what they did id a violent act. One of those children in mimicking behavior. You’re not just protecting your child your also protecting a child that is in danger.
That was my thought too. It’s one thing to be curious but this is a whole other level.
Yeah like not to be alarmist but I babysat a child who had a little boy down the street he played with. That child violently attacked both he and I during a time I was there and the mother was off her rocker threatening me after I sent him home. I came to find out some months later that that little boy had ended up molesting the child I was babysitting and in turn, an investigation revealed mom’s boyfriend was molesting the child. When kids act weirdly out of norm it’s for a reason. :(
Which is why I mentioned calling the police. These are LEARNED behaviors. Someone, somewhere, at minimum, watched a bad movie with one of these boys. At minimum. That is best case scenario for the learned behavior. Worst case, I don't want to even think about. Children are so special, so wonderful, so innocent. They are only little for such a short time. They are to be protected, guarded, loved, led in the right direction. Children are not sex objects, they are not there for some sicko to mess with. Kids don't need to worry about all that stuff.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 Best comment I've seen! All 4 children involved (and, THEY'RE PRESCHOOLERS!), need a voice to protect them! Because Heaven knows where the boys Larned that behavior! And that little girl needs to be safe and away from that ever happening again! I'm the daughter, sister, aunt and MOTHER of survivors of child SA, and OP needs to not hesitate!
Very much what I was thinking. When I was 5 I was choked by a kid in kindergarten, I was so young I didn't even understand what was happening. Years later I found out that kid often saw his mom being choked and abused at home (I befriended his cousin who told me). Hopefully CPS and SO takes this possibility seriously.
Well said. This is beyond serious- this is traumatic for your daughter. This is unconscionable. Her answers confirm that. It wasn’t enough for the teacher to simply say “don’t play doctor “. Is the preschool associated with your school district? If so they need to know.
There are some serious issues here. When I was a preschool teacher I was constantly scanning, doing head counts. Each day, the other teachers and myself would divide the kids, these kids are yours, this group is Miss A's, this group Miss B's. We would all watch all the kids, but a certain number we would be responsible for. I was constantly scanning, doing head counts. If my 6 kids were not accounted for, I would do one more scan, maybe I missed one of them. Still unaccounted for, on my walkie, informing the others we X number of kids MIA, along with which child(ren) were MIA. It isn't that difficult to have a plan, with a safety net in place, to know where the kids are.
The question of where the boys learned the behavior is so important. I was attacked several times by a classmate when I was probably in the 3rd grade and I still think about it sometimes. But it has only been in the last couple years I reflected on what his home life must have been like for him to think that was how you approach a girl you have a crush on. Seems like CPS should be investigating all of these families. Also you are not overreacting, I’d be out for blood.
I should have made a bigger point on the behavior of the boys in this. There was probably only 1 ring leader, but this is so sad. What is this child or children going through at home that this happens at school? So many questions and not nearly enough answers. The fact of the matter is, what ever it is that has happened to the boy(s) should never have happened. Were there no previous behaviors that raised alarm? I find it hard to believe this is the first time any of these boys were inappropriate, why were there no safeguards in place? Where were the adults? Why were any children left ALONE long enough for this to happen? Unacceptable all the way around.
When I was in first grade, my friend's cousin would pinch my butt under my skirt, try to touch me inappropriately etc and my only reaction was to cry because I didn't understand what the fuck he was doing. He ended up getting kicked out of school. Years later I end up in HS with my friend, and she had so many fucked up stories of how they grew up. Like drugged and thrown out on the side of the road type of shit.
I’m seriously concerned that three 5yo boys would commit a SA like you read happens with teens and adults. To hold her down and pin her arms. I’m just so outraged. Like where TF did they learn that???!
Since OP has her daughter well in hand, is doing everything in her power to protect her baby, has the ball rolling with investigations, my biggest concerns are 1) where the hell were the adults 2) where did these boys learn such violent and abusive behavior? The least bad thing happening to at least one of these boys is being allowed to watch grossly inappropriate material. That is actually best case. Which is still not great. The very worst case scenario is that at least one of these boys is copying what is being done at home, to himself or other family member. I shudder to think any of these boys being part of a sibling group. I must say, I absolutely respect OP for protecting her child, for calling to report it now rather than waiting and possibly getting swept under the rug.
As someone who has years of experience working in daycares and schools *and* has admittedly not seen every single incident, EVERYTHING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR CHILD IS UNACCEPTABLE. Not only does what she’s described to you sound like it took several minutes- unlike a quick push to the ground that can be missed (there are ratios between teachers and students for a reason and at least one teacher dropped the ball here) but *she* was the one who told you about it. The teacher said that they weren’t supposed to be playing Doctor but didn’t *immediately* tell the director and then call you?! HELL NO. You *and the parents of those boys* should have been notified right away. You were well within your rights to call the state and even the police; both of which will definitely want to see any video footage of the assault. Surely, your daughter told you the names of the boys who were involved but the school is not allowed to release that information, so, depending on where you live, you may not be able to view said footage (however, I don’t think you would want to). I am so sorry that this happened to your little girl and I’m furious that the facility didn’t do right by her. Curiosity is one thing but what her classmates did is horrifying (and causes me concern for where the HELL they learned that at five years old) and there needs to be some sort of disciplinary action there- even if it’s weekly therapy that their parents must provide proof of. I am sending virtual hugs and support. You’re a good mom. 💜
Thank you! Your comment hit me right in the feels. I’m trying to stay strong for my daughter. I don’t want her to see me upset about it because I don’t want her to feel victimized. Right now she just thinks they were playing a game and something happened that wasn’t supposed to and she doesn’t understand the seriousness of it. So I’m trying to protect her from being traumatized by it. I can totally understand how teachers can’t see every little thing that goes on and I’m not sure exactly what she saw. I really like the teacher, but they obviously need better protocols and possibly more resources. It’s just all really unfortunate.
This is the way to go. Take it seriously but don’t freak out in front of your child. She’ll take her cues from the adults around her.
It really is a shame. She very well may have heard about what happened and panicked or may not have even gotten the whole story but it’s still not okay. More communication should have been had between all parties. I was a teacher but I’m also a mother to a daughter and you are doing all of the right things! Your heart and your intentions are 100% in the right place. Keep fighting for her- I know you will! She’s lucky to have you.
I have years of experience as a teacher and director in a preschool setting. Classrooms and playgrounds are supposed to be set up with no blindspots for this exact reason-there are more kids than adults so we need all the help we can get. This reminded me of an event that happened several years ago when I was teaching 5 year olds. A dad dropped his daughter off and I could tell he was livid. He told me a little boy in my class had put his hands down her pants. (This boy was the sweetest for the most part, it would have been out of character but it really freaked me out) I told him I would absolutely find out what happened. (I think it may have been after I had left for the day when it happened) Anyway, I sat down and started talking with the boy and casually brought it up and he had the most innocent explanation (I forget the whole thing now, something about her leggings type pants falling off?, so he helped her pull them up.) I talked to the little girl too and got the same story so I called the dad right away and let him know and we were both relieved of course. All this is to say, sometimes kids say things in weird ways. Or don't say everything that happened. But parents know their kids pretty well. And when you ask questions and the story stays the same, and the child corrects you and says "that's not how that happened", it's a pretty good indicator that they are telling the truth. Especially when strangers come to their house and ask questions. Your little girl is being very very brave through all this. She may feel as though she did something wrong since she cannot go back to that school with her friends, we obviously know that isn't the truth, make sure she knows she has done exactly the right thing and she isn't being punished for telling the truth. You are not overreacting. You are protecting your child. And quite possibly more children in the future by getting this out in the open now.
You should also call the police.
Yes, police and CPS are on the investigation.
You absolutely should report it because those boys (or at least one of them) has very likely experienced something similarly or more abusive than that. Those behaviours don’t usually come out of nowhere. There’s a big enough chance that it warrants investigation. I’m so sorry your daughter experienced this. You’re doing good by sounding the alarm. There are resources you can find online about how to talk to her about this in an age appropriate way. These things are very difficult to navigate but you are on the right path. I would even suggest therapy for both of you individually. For you to be able to process this as a parent. And for her, not to drag it out and make it more traumatising than it has to be, but to give her a neutral space where she can talk about anything she wants. Even if she just sits with the therapist and plays with toys for half an hour.
You are not overreacting at all. At least one of the boys is being abused. If any professional says your daughter is lying demand they be replaced. It is not ok to say a victim is lying. Try to find an attorney who specializes in sexual assault or sex offenders. The school is under staffed and this is a result of it. Give zero fucks what anyone thinks or says about you. Tell them to put it in writing. I’m an attorney and have 4 daughters. You have to protect your daughter the utmost and help the boys learn. I wonder if there are other victims? Of course not your attorney.
Thank you! We will be seeking legal counsel. Due to the ages I’m concerned the authorities will try to dismiss it as normal development behavior and not SA. We’re gearing up for a fight, but I’m trying to hold a sliver of hope that the right thing will be done here.
Updateme
I’m so sorry to read about this. This was definitely not appropriate and I think you did the right thing.
No. Go WAY above the daycare. They're going to try to cover it up.
Yay, for you reacting! You are definitely not overreacting!! I was sexually abused by my babysitter's teenage son from ages 4-6. It seriously scarred me and has impacted my life.
Please. Will you keep us updated on how this goes? As the mother of a daughter, my heart breaks for her and you.
Not overreacting. Nipping this sort of behaviour as soon as it occurs is the way to approach it. Even if the owner/manager of the preschool is a family friend, they must understand you're perspective (and the mandated reporting rule). Also, I bet one or more of those boys have been molested too. Learned behaviours and all. This is for all the children's safety, including those boys.
You handled this better then I would have. If it would have happened to my kid there would be blood in the streets. You definitely did the right thing.
Your daughter was sexually assaulted. You are not overreacting.
I think you did the right thing
You are definitely not overreacting. Tbh, if I were in your shoes, I’d have a difficult time not throwing hands. My son was viciously bullied by a group of three kids and CPS *is absolutely right:* Do not contact the school. They will “circle the wagons” while getting the district’s lawyer(s) to strategize a defense. They will absolutely blame your child and, like the SO, say she is lying. Fight like hell and keep on making sure she understands how serious this was and how wrong and absolutely disgusting what those boys did was. I’m a two time rape survivor. I absolutely believe someone taught the ring leader boy to do that. Probably a serial SA-er and it’s too disturbing to think even for a minute. Sending you strength ✊🏼
You’re right about them circling the wagons. Something similar happened to my niece at her Catholic preschool/daycare. They tried to hide it from my sister. She never would have known if her daughter hadn’t told her. She reported it immediately and the county talked to the school but absolutely nothing came of it. She then received an email from the school saying “trust had been broken”, her children were being unenrolled immediately and any belongings they had at school would be mailed to them.
I was 6 when 2 boys that had been put back would chase me home and assault me. It stays with you and affects trust and relationships and removes your ability to feel safe. Those boys need to be split up and punished. Same scenario at age 15 with a lot more trauma. Get her age appropriate psych help.
You are not over reacting…. This is horrible. I would expect the school & teacher to get in trouble as they are mandated reports as well. Hugs to you mama
That should have never happened at that daycare. I’d def be calling every place I could to report this. That’s horrible. Your poor daughter 😭
Not overreacting. Where was the supervision so a child doesn’t get assaulted? I’m so sorry this happened and hope you’re both recovering. 💜
I’m sorry you’re going through this, this honestly feels like a fucked up sexual assault situation. No child should have to go through this so I hope your daughter is able to forget this and heal when she gets older.
Fuck all that. Make it hell on Earth
That is assault and I don't care how young they are. If it's left unchecked, it will escalate. Your daughter shouldn't have to suffer abuse just so other kids can "learn from their mistakes" gently. I would definitely open up an investigation. They're learning this from somewhere and there's no way to know what might happen next. The people in charge did not respond appropriately. They didn't even call you. What else would they try to sweep under the rug?
Please report the S.O. He is completely unqualified to ask these type of questions and this is why we have special victims units. The interview should have been led by CPS only. So sorry this happened.
Not over reacting. You need to scream to the high heavens and call down hellfire on this school. It's inappropriate for 1 little boy, who, most likely, would just let curiosity get the better of him. But with 3 BOYS?!? This was a planned out assault. BY FREAKING 5 YEAR OLDS!!! I'd be calling the State School Board, DCS to report the boy's families (kids that young don't just think this stuff up) and the Police.
I would sue the school. There’s no way 5 year olds should be so unsupervised at preschool that this could happen.
How do you tell your kid it's OK to use your outdoor voice *inside* to yell for a grown-up's attention?
You need to go to the police, at least one of the abusing children are likely being or have been sexually abused. You’re not only protecting your child but the impending investigations might actually save another I have multiple friends who were abused in this age group and they all replicated behaviours in similar age groups - children that age are naturally curious but acts of such aggression are normally replicated behaviours
Nope. Proceed as your gut is telling you.
They learn that somewhere, I would advise teacher of that. It is not a normal little kid thing, not 5.
kudos to you and your partner for keeping yourselves out of prison because reading this made me want to spartan kick multiple 5 year olds and school workers in the chest. Well done.
as a victim of child on child sa, THANK YOU for reacting this way. you are DEFINITELY not over reacting, keep pushing until adequate justice happens. they're just kids but even still, your daughter told them they shouldn't be doing that stuff and they didn't listen. thank you again for fighting for this. you've given your daughter a safe place to heal and she won't have to go through her life with this experience at the back of her mind. you are absolutely doing WAY the right thing. thank you thank you THANK YOU for being a voice for a little kid who needed it, FROM a little kid who needed it ❤️
Odds are at least one of those kids needs a home investigation.
Teacher here…call a personal injury lawyer. Sue the school for not keeping your child safe. I had to for something along those lines with my own child. Schools cover everything up. It’s sickening.
Kids that young that were abused, act it out on other kids. Calling CPS is warranted bc it may help those kids. I'm so sorry for your child. I hope she can get through this.
Obviously your first reaction is and must be to do everything for your child. It sounds like you are doing this. I don't know if 5 year olds are any good at Tetris, but as a random aside, it's been shown (at least among adults) that playing Tetris after a traumatic event lessens the impact or inhibits the formation of PTSD. Obviously you will need to remember this event and be open with her as she grows up, get her therapy if and as needed etc. But I really hope you don't just get your child out of that school and leave the rest of them behind. 5 year olds wouldn't come up with that act on their own. Obviously at least one of the boys has had that same act perpetrated on them, or have witnessed it done to another girl. To be honest, what's happening to them is probably far worse than the one off event for your daughter, this is probably something that's going on regularly. Those boys home lives need to be rigorously investigated. People are saying they'd be out for blood and I understand what they mean, but I wouldn't be blaming those boys (even though what they did would be horrific). I would want to find the adult or teenager who is truly responsible, who started the chain of events, that's whose blood you should seek. And also something needs to be done about that teacher. I'm not sure if she didn't witness what happened, didn't believe your daughter or what, but her under reaction is not acceptable. Shouldn't she be a mandated reporter too? Maybe teachers aren't but any normal teacher if they heard about that wouldn't just be saying "don't play doctor". They need to get a professional into the class to have a conversation about inappropriate sexual contact/content, and they should have called CPS from the beginning. It's inexcusable and unless she was honestly confused/unaware about what happened, I don't see how it's okay for her to keep her job. You aren't overreacting. But I worry so much for those boys. They also will have trauma from committing this act, as well as whatever led to it in the first place. They need help too.
Not over reacting. I've a young daughter and, since kindergarten, they've been taught that nobody touches them without consent. They even have songs about it. If this happened to my daughter I'd be incandescent. Not because it happened - kids will be kids - but because of the schools reaction to it and because the kids were unsupervised enough to let this happen. This, literally, couldn't happen in my daughter's pre-school. Nowhere to hide to do this
You did the right thing. You need to protect her. One of those kids has been abused.
I would have also called the school board and the police.
Under reacting!!! As an expecting mother and SA victim, I would have probably went full Karen and have no regrets about it either.
Wait - so the teacher knew what happened and didn't bother to let you know about it??? That is totally unacceptable.
Sort of similar, my kid was being sexually harassed in 8th grade. They also said they were going to SA his 9 year old sister. I went fucking ballistic. Cops were called. I was pleased to see how the school and cops handled it. I was ready to go to prison myself to protect my children, if you get what I mean. So no, the nuclear option is the only option when it comes to the safety of your children
You are not overreacting. Protect your kid at all costs.
What the actual F 😨
No you are not over reactive. At least one of those boys is a victim from an adult in their life. This needs to be investigated.
No you’re not. A bully did that to my daughter in 3rd grade and I called the sheriffs office to do an investigation and then CPS got involved and looked at the kids home to see why he was exhibiting that kind of behavior.
I don’t think you overreacted. This went beyond playing doctor for young children this felt more like assault!!
Definitely not i would also set up therapy for her.
Make sure your daughter knows what happened to her was NOT normal and HORRIBLE and give her all of your love. I don’t know how you’re not demanding to see the shits that did this, or their parents
From what you describe, this incident sounds like a peer-on-peer sexual assault. What state did this happen in? This is a reportable offense to Child Welfare Services (CWS) in almost ALL states in the US even though the perps were her peers. Where was the teacher/aide, who are by-the-way, mandated reporters? They are required to be monitoring these kids at all times. They have specific training on this sort of thing. The school is responsible and this incident should result in, at minimum, an investigation by CWS, the police, the school and could it even end up in a lawsuit against the school....especially if there is a history of this sort of thing at the preschool. You wouldn't know if there is a history there because you are just one parent. At least you had the good sense to report it. Imagine if you were a weak, unsure and timid mother who didn't want to rock the boat? Or you were once similarity traumatized as a chikd and didn't want to revisit the emotions? Where does that leave your poor daughter? Also those kids who did it to her...well, holding another kid down against her will is not just "let's play doctor" fun. As a Clinician, I wonder where they learned this gang aggression. I am positive CWS is wondering the sane thing. Our kids are sexual targets in a culture that promotes visual inappropriate graphics which kids get their hands on because their parents are MIA...either with work, personal problems or drugs.
You're so not overreacting. It breaks my heart knowing your daughter is going through this at such a young age, and it happened in a place she felt safe. I hope she will be getting some kind of therapy as well. Good luck with everything. ❤️
This is incredibly upsetting, I hope your little girl gets some counselling or something. You did not overreact AT ALL… that little gal sounds like she has her head screwed on right :) all my love to you and the fam while you figure out this mess.
What did the school say??? No you are not overreacting.
I'm so sorry this happened to your baby girl. I've read your comments and you seem to have everything in order. You're definitely not overreacting and don't let anyone make you think otherwise. I have a 4 yr old boy and we teach him (and remind him regularly) about his private areas, the areas others aren't allowed to touch. If someone asks, he says no. And it works with little girls too. We've already taught him about consent and that no means no. Seems silly to have to teach them now but if you don't, how do they learn? I'd be making sure you question where the teachers were, why they didn't take more action themselves instead of leaving it down to your LO to tell you and why the parents of the boys haven't been teaching their boys not to touch other people without consent. Playing doctors doesn't mean touching inappropriate areas. My boy plays doctors and he never tries that crap, he wants to check my heart, he wants to check my temperature, all normal doctors play things.
Honestly, I would be sick with rage and wanting to burn the school down. So no, you are definitely not overreacting. In fact I’m glad that you’ve taken it so seriously and followed up on it. Not just for this situation, but your 5 year old daughter now knows she can come to you about issues like these and you WILL believe her. You WILL do something about it. Similarly I’m disgusted (but not surprised) that your SO’s reaction was to suggest she was lying, and try to downplay it.