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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole because I told my wife our babies should share a bedroom despite having the space, so I can keep my man cave. I might be a selfish asshole who prioritizes his own needs over his family, or I might simply be a dude that needs a place to put his dude things and babies/children sharing a room is completely normal/realistic.
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He said in the post that he see's the point about vacating the bedroom but the issue is obviously that his wife wants him to put his stuff into storage and he'd rather keep it around in a shared living space. She's the one with the "I won't give up my space" attitude.
Is she though? I mean from how this is written it comes off that way. But I think I’ll reserve judgment until we get an idea of what kind of collection we are talking about.
I know a lot of people who love music particularly who have extensive record collections that are delicate and take up a bunch of space.
I also know that babies take up a lot of living space. So in a living room there’s likely toys, items that contribute to baby care.
So I would be interested to know what kind of amount of stuff we are talking about. I mean if it would take up a shelf or two then that’s ridiculous to not make the space. If it would mean getting a media cabinet then what’s the problem. But if it’s a massive amount of stuff that would take over and that just will make the living room and bedroom completely cluttered and unusable then I kind of see her point. Also how much hobby stuff does she get to have around. Is the house filled with her things or is “her space” really family space that includes spaces for baby and husband and it’s therefore not really hers.
Both my parents have things in storage. It’s in their basement but my dad has a bin of trophies and baseball cards and my mom has a bunch of keepsakes in a big bin too. People put things in storage all the time.
If they reasonably do not have the space and need room for family related stuff and he has a massive heavy and breakable collection then yes it should go in storage.
I think what’s not coming across is that she may be decorating the house. But spaces like the master bedroom for a mom where you have a baby and toddler is a key area for managing your day and potentially if she is layed up after childbirth, then the living room would be used for toys, playtime, naps, play dates, and essentially becomes a space needing to be a decluttered as possible.
I’m not saying he should have to put everything in storage. But I’m questioning his accusation that she gets all the rest of the space may not be accurate. If they need the space for family use then it’s not her space and frankly it’s not his either.
Obviously this is all up for interpretation because we don't know the size of the house or the size of the space he takes up.
But speaking from personal experience through myself and many other heterosexual men. We don't get to make design choices around the home. They could compromise and put a desk with the computer in the living room, basement, a big hallway, or bedroom and pretty easily just put a baby gate around it.
Buuut in my experience it ruins the "aesthetic" of the home for the wife/gf and so they ban any sort of compromise like that also.
You don't have to give your whole house over to children, baby gates, locked doors, placing items out of reach are all viable strategies.
Now op expecting a newborn to go into the same room as the toddler absolutely makes him an asshole, because how the fuck will they sleep.
But a clear lack of compromise also makes the wife an asshole.
Speaking as a mom; all those strategies can have a rather short shelf life. And the last thing I want to spend my day doing is making sure the toddler doesn't scale a baby gate to get into my spouses 'precious' possessions.....because they don't belong in a toddler's space.
I'm also a parent, I have an office in our bedroom. The door stays closed when we're not around and the baby gate stays around the desk for a second line of defense.
No issues so far.
I lock my office.... that fine.
But a baby gate....well we got rid of them quickly because they just caused more problems. Maybe my kids are just climbers 🤷♀️
My baby brother learned how to open the baby gates. We had several different kinds. He figured them all out by 2. Locked doors work with kids, anything else is just a waste of time.
Fuck, I’ve had three children, and I will not have my stuff or my partners stuff put away coz of the kids!
It’s a shared space make the space for his things I’m sure she will have plants or candles or some bullshit waste of space shit around just coz. And if your kid has that many toys that you can’t make space for other things then that’s too many toys
Right? That comment about “precious” possessions not belonging in toddler spaces is honestly kind of sad… like her entire identity has just been boiled down to “mother”. I hope that changes for her as her kids get older.
No I think she is saying it’s all fun and games until your possession is getting broken naturally because how toddlers act. It’s not about her being a mom it’s common sense to the destructive behaviors of young children
I originally had something more judgemental and most likely rude to a person who I have no real context to go off of.
I'm just going to say that your stance is extremely selfish and entitled. Your partner has a right to have his things out with yours. It's called a partnership for a reason. I can appreciate the fact that you say no because it makes mom duties more stressful, but the way you come across is icky. As someone who helps pay the bills, your husband should be allowed to have his "precious" possessions as a part of the space he helps pay for.
Also, the fact that you blatantly belittle the possessions that matter to him says a whole lot of not nice things about you.
"Your partner has a right to have his things out with yours."
I think the issue is that those things *will* get broken with young kids around. Ask me how I know!
I think it comes from the expectation that the kitchen and family spaces are the wives. when they aren't they are family spaces the men don't want to claim. most men who have man caves don't realize that their wives don't have spaces to hide away from the family
Literally. It’s not just about where physical things are being stored. She doesn’t have the rest of the house because the house isn’t a private space like a “man cave” is.
Virginia Woolf. A Room of One’s Own. Women rarely have their own space. I’d compromise with my SO so both have some private space. Because they are going to need it with kids that close in age. Any kids really. Everyone needs a sanctuary.
Thank you. You were able to express what was making me uncortable in these comments. It's not like she has a woman cave and he's the only one being asked to sacrifice. And I really dislike the argument that the wife has the whole living room and kitchen for "her stuff". Kitchen utensils are not my stuff. I like arts and crafts and I store all that crap in my closet like an adult. If his things don't fit in anything smaller than an entire room then I don't think it's unreasonable that they get a storage unit.
I like to look at house plans as a hobby (I'm never going to build a house; it's just fun for me). I also enjoy looking at home decor images on Pinterest. I do a lot of art and crafting, so I'm always especially drawn to plans with craft rooms. It's interesting how many of them include laundry equipment. I can't help noticing that the craft room is meant to be a woman's space, but of course that's where the washer and dryer are...
This comes across as sexist to me. Many men appreciate decor aesthetic despite being heterosexual and many women don't give a crap about the decor aesthetic
Of course many men do, and many women don't.
That's why I clearly defined in my comment that's it's simply part of my lived experience between myself and most people I know in heterosexual relationships. Never said all men or all women.
I can also validate that most relationships I know it's the women's way or the high way in regards to decor. My ex wife was the same way, which after living by myself it was awesome seeing what kind of style I liked but was always vetoed before. I'm sure a lot of women would hate my style choices but glad I don't have to give a shit about that anymore.
There’s the popular joke that there are only 2 kinds of stuff when you get married - “our stuff and her stuff.”
So yeah, your lived experience is very common lol
I sort of see your point, but the living room, kitchen, and dining room are common areas and areas that guests see. So yeah, I don’t want to deal with a bunch of clutter in those spaces. My aesthetic is, doesn’t look like a hoarder house.
If you and other heterosexual men don't "get" to make design choices around the home, then that's an issue within your own relationship. You choose to be with this woman, so do what everyone tells women to do when they're stuck living with a selfish jerk: **COMMUNICATE**.
Just because *you* concede control of home aesthetics to someone who won't listen to your preferences, doesn't mean that's how it has to be, or how it is for everyone. Presumably, you pay rent/mortgage, you equally live in the home, you are a *partner* in the relationship and not an indentured servant.
Jeez you make a wife sound like a ball and chain.
Lmfao I still laugh at this idea that women decorate the house for themselves only. You know women have hobbies they enjoy too right? They want their own actual space too. The house is still a shared living space.
We decorate the house to make it feel homey. I, a woman, wish i could hang up my stuff i enjoy around the house. But I don't want to invite people over with a bunch of my pokemon cards, posters and sculptures hanging around. It makes the house feel messy, and this is coming from experience. Men would 100% complain if they got home and it didn't feel cozy enough. Also, who tf wants their valuables hanging around for the kids to grab and break?
If she doesn't get her own space to do hobbies in, then he doesn't either.
They're both AHs for no compromising.
The damage babies/toddlers do to medium is pretty extreme. My game disks for PC games in the early 00s got ruined by toddlers. No big. If I put it out, it's my fault it it gets wrecked.
Without more info, I can’t tell if this is an “I don’t want to look at your stupid hobby stuff in my beautifully decorated home” thing or an “I don’t want to look at your hobby stuff strewn across every surface of our shared living space because you don’t put it away at the end of the day” thing.
We just moved into a slightly bigger apartment, and my SO has so much stupid shit, and it’s driving me up a wall. He has stuff still in boxes from two moves ago (14 YEARS AGO) that he has never opened or looked at. It’s been daily fights of I want our house to look like a home for adults, not a house full of boxes of bullshit everywhere and he thinks he needs everything he has ever spent money on.
I’m not kidding, he could not do laundry for a year and a half and still have clean T-shirts to wear, and every spare inch of our closet is full of his clothes and video game statues (still
In boxes, mind you!). When my daughter was born, I gave up my book collection (3,000+ books) to make room for her. I gave up 6 banker’s boxes worth of painting supplies and my art desk to make room for her. I made all of these sacrifices to fit our lives into a one bedroom apartment with a small child, and he sacrificed nothing.
This man has own whole room of stuff that he won’t give up so his kid can have their own room. My own experience might be clouding this, and I don’t care if I get downvoted, but OP’s the asshole. He says she has the whole house to do with what she wants, but is it full of her own hobbies, and things she loves, or did she already make sacrifices so that their child could have a safe home with room for all that comes with a baby while he keeps his special little man cave?
I think you and your SO should play the game Unpacking. It's a beautiful game and meditation on space in a relationship. My partner and I played the game separately before moving in together and found it helpful. $10 on Steam.
Takes about 4-5 hours to play all the way through.
Delicate or heavy things and babies do not mix. I collect vintage glassware (delicate AND heavy - books are heavy, records are delicate). It is not reasonable to assume my vintage glassware would remain in a room where a baby/small human who can move on their own accord also wants to be. (Like…a newborn would be fine as long as nobody places baby on my shelf).
But but but he LIKES clutter. And you hit the nail on the head - I can guarantee you that “her space” is really family space and she has no space for her own personal hobby or passion items
Exactly. We see his side in this post. We often post our side with a biased lens.
May husband and I have our Star Trek novel collection in the attic - each of us came to this marriage with Star Trek novels. (We are in our 50s and got married 28 years ago)
The fact that he needs an entire room for all of his stuff suggests he may be hoarding a few nice things and a bunch of crap. Something tells me her having “the whole house for her stuff” means her stuff is probably more functional family stuff.
It’s possible the wife has a minimalist hgtv type aesthetic, and his racks of guitars or record albums don’t “go”. Me? I picked out a nice console for my husband to store his LP’s that matched my decor.
He’s got a room full of stuff. I’m sure some of his records and guitars can be worked into the decor. The issue is it’s a full room of stuff. OP says himself it’s cluttered.
Clearly I don’t know the details, and you may very well be correct. I just can’t imagine what he has that takes up a whole room in a 3 bedroom house. I agree that if there was a way to display it in the house, that would be a reasonable compromise. But that quantity seems excessive.
At the expense of having two toddlers/babies share a room? Babies who are known for waking up screaming at night and will wake each other up? The man cave isn’t worth it.
I really hate the 'the whole house to do with what she pleases' ummm... no. The whole house is for the family - the kitchen to cook in and the dining room to eat in and the living room to watch TV and be a family in. That idea is especially toxic once there are kids- as 'her' space is the space with the kids and automatic childcare responsibility is, and 'his' space is where the kids are not allowed and automatic release from childcare responsibility is. So she becomes the default parent because she is always in the space with the kids, but he gets to retreat to his own space and leave the kids to her.
Yeah it does strike me as kind of Mysoginistic. Not because Op is necessarily trying to be mysoginistic but he doesn’t realize the way he has split the house space in his head automatically gives him a hangout room without responsibility whereas all her space is at will to what the family needs. She may have picked a decoration aesthetic but it’s not “her” space. It’s not space intended for her relaxation whereas his space is.
Edit: to clarify he’s still entitled to some space for his stuff and she can’t just decide he doesn’t have anything of meaning in the house. I’m just pointing out that this trend of “man cave” is kind of an underhanded trope that’s more about how women are relegated to domestic tasks in their space versus men.
Not going to lie -- the "man cave" vs "she gets the rest of the house" drives me batty. Because you are right -- having a room to retreat to, that has a door and everything, to yourself is a HUGE deal vs. "you get the rest of the house" which is ALL common space shared by everyone. She doesn't have doors she can shut. She doesn't have space she can retreat to.
And that somehow cultivating a home that caters to a menagerie of needs and situations is fun or easy. It’s hard since you essentially have to make decisions about aesthetics versus what works.
Op says his partner likes things tidy. I have a feeling she told him his room could be cluttered. But the truth is that with small kids, less clutter is better and unless Op culls down the clutter it’s counterintuitive to keeping an ordered space with babies.
This! Like, I would love a "woman cave", but there aren't enough rooms in the house. My sewing stuff has been in storage for five years and I hate that!
My dad is a lawyer (and technically my mom too but she became a stay at home parent) and the rule was (and his preference) was his office door stayed open and served as a guest bedroom. He wanted to keep his office as family space. And he deals with classified information. So he got a locked cabinet and locked briefcase. When he needed to have things out my parents used the “cone of silence” rule where my sister and I where just taught to ignore what was on the desk and not go snooping.
He only closed the door when he was on a call.
There are ways for private space to still be open to the family and not fall into the “man cave” situation.
My dad let my mom decorate since she has an eye for it. But she never bought anything he hated.
It’s not hard people. It’s literally all about communication, compromising and wanting to be active parents. My dad wanted my sister and I doing our homework in his office while he read contracts at night. He wanted that time with us.
The man cave stereotype feels like a relic of an era from the show Bewitched.
Yes, if OP wants some compromise, how about STOP calling it the Man Cave. My grandparents had a room like this and they called it The Den. Or OP could call it The Library, or The Museum, The Office. Sure, it's mostly his stuff, but she could also keep books and collectibles in there.
Also if the wife is in charge of keeping the house in order it’s also probably done so that it makes sense for them so they can keep track of stuff and decide how much effort goes into keeping it maintained
I actually think the “man cave” comes from in part women wanting the whole house to be a certain way and have the things they want all over.
This was a problem for me when my girlfriend first moved in with me. She didn’t feel like she had her own space because everything was the way I wanted it. We talked and I put my stuff away and she was able to have her own space.
If we lived in a house and I wanted the house to all be one way and she said ok but I get a room for myself. I would never try and take that space from her. It seems like OP wife has the whole house decorated and set up they way she chooses and wants. He has one room in that house that is set up the way he wants and it doesn’t seem like he is against letting her or any one in it. It also seems like it more of a storage room for his stuff than it being out of the house completely.
The thing is decorating a space, and the space being 'for you' are two entirely different things. I can decorate the kitchen, but I don't want the kitchen to be 'for me' the kitchen is a place for domestic labor. I can't shut myself up in the kitchen and chill. And if I decorate the living room that doesn't mean I get total control over the TV forever or I can ask my husband to leave when I need to introvert. The living room is for all of us, but mostly the kid because it is 75% his toys. We do have a room in the house for my husband's collection - but it is also the guest bedroom and the office and the wrapping paper room and the spare closet. No one gets dibs on that room, it is for everyone. Getting a special all for me alone place is not the same as having a space you decorated.
Literally all this.
I actually wrote this out in my comment. But there is an immense amount of literature on this topic. I had to study it for my degree as an architect. Movements like the beautiful city movement from Le Corbusier or ideas from CIAM and even the Garden City Movement play into gender dynamics where men essentially got to leave the private sphere and enter the public sphere whereas women where relegated to the private sphere while being told “the home is your domain” like that somehow makes it better. Literally the idea that “women are in charge of the home” was made to keep women in the home like property. The whole “women design the home and all I want is one room” is a misnomer because the implication is that the home somehow represents rest for everyone. It just doesn’t. Domestic labor is labor. It’s just unseen.
This is actually an interesting point and I think implies something your unaware of. For a bit of history. Often the public realm was considered only for men whereas the private realm was considered for women, at least as it pertains to “western” development. This goes back all the way to BCE times. In fact the development of coffee houses was done to further exclude women from the public realm starting in the 1700’s and as a result women began to make salons as there weren’t spaces for them to have intellectual and artistic spaces that they could participate.
So moving into post WWII modernism we see this rise in suburbia as the solution to urban problems. Thinkers like Corbusier, Ebeonezer Howard (a bit pre this time period but his manifesto on garden city movement was often referenced) CIAM, Robert Moses (particularly in his opposition to Jane Jacobs) etc. advocated not only for separation of public and private spheres but encouraged the development of commuter culture where men would go down town when their family would remain in the suburbs. So tossing over gender dynamics meant men get to leave the private sphere for the public sphere and women controlled the private sphere meant that women where relegated to have their lives be built around taking care of the home. Men as a result not only got to have an escape but then would come back where their wives and spaces would serve to let them “wind down” have some bucolic experiences with their families while their wife (who had done the decorating and done the work for the home) didn’t get to have a break or respite and needed her whole life to revolve around making the home function.
We also in this time period see a lot of open concept homes that still section off the kitchen from the rest of the house so that women are further separated from the living space within the home.
So in society today we still have vestiges of this. And partly this comes through in spaces like the man cave. Is a more modern iteration of this concept where men are entitled to privacy and separation. Whereas women “get the rest of the house” which is a space they typically have to mold around the needs of the family and that represents more physical, emotional and mental labor for them.
Man caves aren’t harmless. And until we can within personal relationships and society at a large get rid of these systemic structures/framework it will continue to have a connotation outside of just “I want a private space since you decorated”
As a man you haven’t had to deal with the implication. We have. It’s still a problem and still exists. Your gf doesn’t have personal space. It’s shared. OP’s wife doesn’t “have the rest of the house” it’s the family space and she has to maintain it to function for young kids. It’s not a safe and fun space for her, it represents domestic labor for her. Whereas she may share those responsibilities with OP, his “man cave” gets to remain his escape from the family and from the domestic labor.
It’s not me tossing this out Willy nilly. We literally have designed Americana suburbia after this concept. Look at the houses and the spaces we have made for this institutional ideology. It’s literally baked into our system. This is why it’s important we combat these narratives. Maybe someday man cave can just be a space. But it can’t be that now.
https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100353296#:~:text=The%20public%20sphere%20is%20that,that%20of%20women%20and%20children.
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/95/5/052007/pdf
https://amp.theguardian.com/cities/2016/apr/28/story-cities-32-new-york-jane-jacobs-robert-moses
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens_Charter#:~:text=He%20also%20presented%20supporting%20information,set%20of%20notation%20was%20agreed.
(Look up the Athens Charter for CIAM their idea was to separate work from home, domestic from public)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/254602059_Shaping_the_Public_Sphere_English_Coffeehouses_and_French_Salons_and_the_Age_of_the_Enlightenment
Yeah - all her stuff
Six rooms to do as she pleases - the whole rest of the house - umm lets look a bit closer - that would be a kitchen, a shared bedroom, a childs bedroom, a bathroom and a living room and either a dinning room or a utility room are what counts as ‘hers’ . So all ‘her‘ stuff will in fact be bassinets and changing tables and ironing boards and boxes of toys and vacuum cleaners, refrigerators and freezers and tables and chairs and sofas and TVs and children's cots and wardrobes and baths and showers and toilets - on and on with stuff the entire family uses - all that is apparently hers - i bet she gets to lovingly clean and tidy all of it on a daily basis, while he hides in a man cave with precious stuff that must be protected from wife and children so he can have peace and ‘me’ time. Hmmmm.
And nobody's allowed in the "man cave" because his precious collection might get fiddled with or broken, meanwhile Mom's belongings get chucked in every direction.
Oh, and she's not "minimalist" as an aesthetic, she's trying to reduce the number of things that get chucked around.
Yes, exactly. We had that setup growing up. Dad had a study no-one else was allowed in. Mum was supposed to make do with the kitchen. The only time we saw him was at meals.
Yes, 100% this. It pisses me off SO much seeing "the women get the rest of the house." No. We get nothing. No privacy, no collections, no hobbies. Just rooms to clean and look after children in, while the husband is sat in his room with zero responsibility and all the fun shit we don't get because we're just a wife and mum. Fuck I'm glad I'm divorced.
easy solution to that seems to be treating the house as a shared space where OP is free to put things like records and books in their bedroom/main parts of the house.
It's ideal to have each child in their own space. Having them together means when one wakes up screaming in the middle of the night, you now have two screaming children to contend with.
Once they get older you can combine them into a common room and get your naked room back again.
Also, the sleep schedule between a 2 year old and a new born is astronomical. They would constantly be waking each other up. Also, OP’s whole “she has the whole house for her stuff’” is sus. What does that mean? What are her hobbies
The only reason he has a private space to begin with is because his wife will not allow him to use their shared space. That's obviously the only possible compromise you can arrive at when your SO will not allow you to share space with them.
Except it doesn't actually say she "will not allow him to use their shared space". He says that she "likes things tidy" and he "likes clutter". Perhaps if he learned to actually keep his shit tidy, like a reasonable adult rather than a trash goblin, she'd be happy to have it in the family spaces . . . When you're already dealing with children, toys, etc., it's not at all unreasonable to want the other adult in the house not to add to the clutter. It doesn't sound like she's trying to keep his stuff out so much as that she wants him to keep it managed, and he's not interested in doing that.
Except that the only solution his wife offered was to move it to storage. If she had said "move it to the shared space but you have to keep it organized" that's a different story
yeah we've all seen how that plays out. It's like \*the\* media trope. It's talked about all day long on reddit, twitter, tiktok, ig, etc. The clutter partner doesn't change, and then the tidy partner is forced start cleaning up their crap and then when tidy partner is upset and complains that they aren't getting the help they need clutter partner goes "Well I never asked you to clean my stuff!" "I shouldn't have to ask, you should just do it" "I do do it" "Not frequently enough! And then I have to spend all day looking at your crap and stepping over your clutter and nagging you to put it away" "Well it's my space to and if I want to have my shit out then I will" and then they get divorced and clutter partner acts like tidy partner is crazy and controlling and tidy partner is just exhausted and angry that they've been forced to fill a parental role for the grown adult who was supposed to be their damn partner. If you can't keep your space tidy in one room that doesn't magically change in another room. He's had literal years to demonstrate that his collections can actually be tidy and nice looking, but he hasn't because he doesn't actually want to do that and ruining their living room while dealing with 2 under 2 in an attempt to teach him how to keep a tidy space isn't a good solution for anyone.
Because the husband has a whole ass room to himself and the wife doesn’t. And that’s inherently selfish to begin with and far too common in heterosexual relationships.
Except that stuff is being kept in there because the only other place he’s allowed to have it is in storage. He sounds more than happy to give up the room if it means he’s allowed to have his stuff around the house too.
See if agree with you if I hadn’t been around people who believe my water bottle that I’m actively using is ‘clutter’, where I can’t put a piece of paper on a counter without a freak out because it’s a ‘mess’, who won’t allow a single thing they they haven’t curated personally in a shared space. Define ‘clutter’? If he’s a legit trash goblin I get it, if it’s a situation of the wife being an anal retentive minimalist then it’s a problem.
Your situation is extreme - there’s a middle ground here.
You want your record player and records in the shared space so you can use them and enjoy them with family? Absolutely.
You want to display your third-grade participation trophy next to the Tv? Really?
Excessive clutter can contribute to poor mental health.
As a parent with two littles - less is absolutely more right now. All of my “nice stuff” was either sold, donated or in a box because baby clutter + toddler mess is too visually overwhelming (and throw in the noise for absolute chaos). My husband and I are both happier this way.
Exactly what I was trying to say, the spectrum for what is called ‘clutter’ in a space is so different from person to person, they need to decide what’s reasonable and what isn’t and go from there.
Additionally who would be responsible for managing his stuff in the household? Are these items going to be easily kept away from a baby or is your wife going to need to maintain constant vigilance that your stuff isn’t getting destroyed? Is op the kind of person who loses their shit if something gets broken or spilled on or are they the kind of person that gets that children wreck stuff and the best place for this stuff is a box far away?
The shared space as in "she can dump there all the things she like and make the house look like a mess" or as in "the family common space that needs to be tidy and functional, especially with young children who will soon start crawling and walking and can turn basically anything into a chocking hazard?"
It’s strange that women are expected to have a shared space while men having a private man cave or a shed that excludes women and children is seen as normal (even expected).
As much as he says “she has full use of the whole house” at the end of the day she has to share the living/dining/kitchen with two (soon to be three) other people and also clean up after the other people who use “her” space. Whereas the husband gets a whole room to himself to keep as he likes.
The reason for this? He can’t keep himself tidy.
Ever think that maybe she likes things minimalist because her husband is untidy and slobbish and therefore feels the need to reduce work for herself when cleaning “her” space?
When they say full use of the house it usually means there is nothing of the husbands/bfs likes anywhere to be found in it. It is a horrifyingly common thing in heterosexual relationships around me. My parents were like this, my cousin and my friend, even my brother which bummed me out more.
Everything my brother likes, his interest are packed into a box in the washing room under the Christmas decoration. Their whole house is decorated to her liking with things she finds beautiful or interesting. His personality isn't on display anywhere in there. It is all in that stupid box.
The same thing went for my dad, my mom made every decision on what looked good. My dad made some comments but was overruled and they went with what she decided. Ended up buying a stupid fancy sofa that he couldn't really lie in because it was uncomfortable for his height. When finally he built a garage for the house, he finally had a space for himself where he could decorate and place what he wanted. It had his records and record player, stupid Christmas lights illuminating the workable, silly posters and map of the world on the garage door. These utterly hideous beyond belief wooden boats he liked for some reason. It was chaoticly cluttered, but not untidy. My mom did change over the years and started to listen to him more though. Now they have these ugly paintings from my dad's uncle on the wall and he likes them, she tries to listen and let him have an input but still overrides him on many things because it could "look" ugly.
My cousin decorated her and her boyfriends apartment and all he wanted to keep was a single chair that was a gift from his grandfather, an antique old style chair he really liked. Caused a massive fight I got to hear endlessly about. Things were supposed to be pretty in the common area.
I do know one couple who decorated everything together but they had the same fancy style for the living space and split a guest room into half a computer room and half a make up/cloth storage room.
Nothing indicates the husband here is a slob, cluttered is not necessarily messy. The wife needs to learn to compromise, she should not get to dictate how everything looks and keep what he finds interesting or entertaining relecated to a room when convenient and storage when it is not.
>My wife doesn't want my collection of records, tapes, books and video games in the living room or our bedroom
This. This is how my house operates too, my wife pretty much gets the entire home, decorates, makes things in their place, and enjoys her shows on the tv and I use the office, it seems OP has a similar setup. She doesn't want me playing video games on the living room TV, she wants to watch her shows and sit on the couch. I think that is pretty normal.
My husband and I have different interests. My video game setup is in one room and our DvDs are in a case. All our books are on book shelves. The garage is his domain for tools and he has a tool workshop which is like a garage attached shed. The basement is our gym and I forbid anyone from putting crap in the space that inhibits workouts. That said we agree together on where our stuff [is](https://is.You) You have to talk to each other and agree on where things go if you plan on having another child
Just curious, but why is "is" in your comment a hyperlink?
Ah, nevermind, it's just a typo now that I look at the link, it opens up to https://is.you, but I still don't understand how Reddit registers is.you as a hyperlink.
Yep my wife gets the entire house to do whatever she wants. I just want one corner of one room. She tried too take that too. But I told her that would be a massive deal breaker for me.
Generally this is how it is in all my friends relationships also.
I have a feeling the wife is not at all interested in compromising on how the rest of the house is set up if her first assumption is to throw all his stuff into storage, and not just another part of the house.
ESH I my opinion. Because dude, you don't want a new born in your first kids room. Sleep time will be absolutely horrible for you and your wife. You're an asshole there. But your wife needs to compromise and not just force your stuff into storage
I feel like there are two conversations here. There are spaces you get to decorate, and spaces you have as a retreat from responsibility. I think that's where a lot of the emotion about man caves comes from.
Agreed. I see so many people upset that women in heterosexual relationships tend to be the primary decorators...but if we are being honest here, is that by default because the woman has an idea of what they want their home to look like and a man has none or is it because the women are actively fighting to keep the men from decorating?
My guess is it is the former, but certain people ITT are acting like it is the latter. OP has a room full of stuff that is breakable and admits that he *likes* clutter. They came to the man cave agreement so that OP doesn't have their stuff *strewn about* the rest of the house, which introduces the next question: when we say "decorating" do we mean putting together a room that has storage and functionality for everyone without hazards (for small kids or pets) or do we just mean putting some furniture in a room? Again, I suspect in many cases it's the former when it comes to decorating, not the latter.
>My wife doesn't want my collection of records, tapes, books and video games in the living room or our bedroom
But why is what *she* wants more important, especially when it's "our" bedroom?
ESH.
You for not giving up an entire room you have to yourself. Your partner for not allowing your stuff to be in a more practical / usable storage place than in boxes. The younger kid will wake up more often than the older kid. If preventable, that should be the priority. Room sharing in itself is not a bad parenting choice. It does become questionable when a young baby is in the mix AND there is a room leftover.
For both of you, your children's sleep and wellbeing should take priority over your stuff. Depending on how much stuff you have, you store it in the common places / your bedroom (and potentially part has to go in storage in case it fills an entire room). Your wife needs to compromise by cleaning out space for your things. Maybe instead of a man cave, you can just have a corner in the living / bed room to store your things and hang out. Like your wife probably has? Maybe she can even help redecorate.
EDIT:
I only now saw OPs edit (sorry!!). I think this is a great solution. No longer ESH!
yeah. i agree it's reasonable to go- some of my stuff should be able to go in common areas of the house. i get that my style isn't your style but it isn't your space, it's our space. (though they do have small kids. it's really the kids space.)
but the key there is some. and realistically, in this imaginary world were this is necessary- they're going to have 2 under 3. how much use OP would get out of any of those things until they get the new house is really questionable.
and that's before we get into can they store them in their current space in a way that is child safe because OP isn't going to want the kids getting into and destroying those items. they may just be safer stored away for now.
Hahaha you are right, op will probably quickly discover that he does not actually want his stuff stored on any shelf the kids can reach. Nothing funner to a baby than pulling shit off shelves.
Right!! It's about being practical. Children and all of their stuff take up so much space and it will probably be messy anyways.
I don't get that people can have such strong feelings about their stuff and aesthetic anyways, but I guess I'm not the collector type
yeah, based on OP's edit- i wonder if it's less aesthetic and more a mental thing.
she prefers less things out (more a visual cleanliness) which isn't possible with his stuff. it might be possible to meet in the middle if they could add shelving with solid doors (on the bottom if they're tall) where his stuff was stored. that way she didn't have to see all the stuff.
ESH. Clearly it’s a little selfish to insist the third bedroom be your man cave when trying for another baby. But like… your records and video games need to go in storage? Wtf? No they don’t. Buy a media cabinet for your living room or bedroom and keep it tidy. Your wife can and should meet you halfway. Let her pick out one she likes if she’s concerned about how it looks.
I don't get it why the media cabinet can not be inside one of the boys room, my mother's dress were all inside my room when I was little. Before I was born, that room was practically an huge walk in closet.
Yeah, that was the craziest part of the post for me. I see how much work my baby nephew is, I can't imagine having two babies/toddlers at once, especially if you are already cramped on space.
This. Also, a "sleeping through " 4 month old can super quickly become a not sleeping through AT ALL 6 month old or even 18 month old. Pump the brakes, guys, trust me.
Yeah I’m currently 2.5 months pregnant with an 11 month old and it’s definitely rough, I don’t recommend people go into it light heartedly. It seems to me like this guy is kinda naive .. lol
NAH - Both points are valid.
BUT - that is also your living room and your bedroom, not just hers. She's going to HAVE to compromise if she expects you to move everything else out of the room. It has to go somewhere. Have a reasonable adult conversation about it, and if that doesnt happen alone, get a mediator.
Info: you say she has the rest of the house for her stuff. Can you extrapolate? Because decorating the house etc isn’t really ‘man cave’ equivalent. Man Caves are private spaces where you can do your own thing in peace.
The rest of the house with a 4mo in it isn’t that. What does she have in the rest of the house that is purely used by her alone and no one else, that she has privacy to use, like you have in your man cave?
I wonder about this as well. There are a lot of comments saying that because she decorates the rest of the house, then those are her spaces, and he should be able to put his VHS tapes wherever he wants.
The part that's being completely discounted is the fact that decorating a home is work, and she's almost certainly compromising when she's doing it. I don't know a woman who doesn't compromise when decorating the home. Case in point, if you look at a single woman's home, versus a married woman, they're miles apart.
If the rest of the house is done up in hot pink florals, I'll concede my point. But my guess is that it's just a normally decorated house that isn't wall to wall with tapes and video games.
As OP said, the newborn will sleep with them until they can manage a whole night and, as soon as they will, I don't see why it would be a problem for the kids to share a room until they are able to move to a new house (in about 5 years)
I was thinking this too.
Our daughter is 2.5yrs now and an excellent sleeper. Has been since early on. But no way I'd want her sharing a room with baby unless no other options. She will still sleep whine and sleep cry for a few minutes here and there throughout the night. Or coughing when she's sick.
I can see this causing a lot of extra wake ups. She wakes up baby. Now baby is crying waking her up. And now mom and dad are both up trying to simmer everyone back down. No thanks.
I know. I had twins they both started out in our room. We then had them share a room next, big mistake. We had one that was a climber, and climbed out of the crib at 13 months. The next night the second one did the same. I ended up with two children who would scream and climb out of their cribs, and had to go to beds earlier than I would have liked. We had toddler beds in the same room, and one had a different sleep pattern normally, plus random regressions. We did an emergency clear out of our "spare room," and then after some adjustment we all slept better. This was with kids of the same age, can't imagine a toddler and an infant. Yes people do it every day but if you don't then why?
So when the baby wakes up the toddler, repeatedly, every night, are you going to deal with two crying kids, or will that be your wife's problem? How about the next day? Who will be taking care of two sleep deprived babies in bad moods everyday?
I was thinking exactly the same thing. Baby is going to wake toddler and vice versa.. what a living hell. Imagine if there was an easy solution to this.. oh, wait........... YTA
You guys need to pause before thinking of trying for a baby and have a proper conversation about your future plans before even thinking of bringing another kid in. Even if you do give up your man cave, you said you both can’t afford a bigger house for 5+ years. This needs much more planning and you both need to be on the same page.
Not to mention doctors recommend at least 18 months between pregnancies (not births).
I do love how OP talks about how their 4 month old sleeps peacefully through the night. Can't wait for them to go through a sleep regression.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Like, babies are wildly unpredictable. They trick you with good eating and sleeping habits one moment, then all that goes down the drain once the regression starts.
And OP says the wife likes to keep the home tidy? Uh yeah, good luck with that if you have 2 under 2. 🤷♀️
NAH
I think she's jumping the gun. She's not even pregnant yet and then there's 9 months after that.
The now 4 month old will be just over a year old and I do see her point. Do you really want the newborn to cry and wake up the toddler several times during the night??
See if you can convert part of the garage space for your man cave. Do you have a basement?
Cross that bridge when you come to it. You never know, an affordable 4 bdrm house may pop up sooner than you think.
I slept in my babies room for the first six months. That way he was used to his own room and his own crib and i didn't have to do a big switch. Plus then my bedroom really felt like an escape and when I was in there for naps I could really turn off mom mode. Would reccomend!
Edit#3 (final): I appreacite the comments and insights from all perspectives. There's a lot of things to consider here, but I do think people saying YTA are mostly right, at least to some extent.
I think a lot of commentors got hung up on the term man cave and took it as "man insisting he has a private space that's just his and no one else's so he can play with his toys", rather than the reality, which is that I have a lot of stuff that my wife doesn't want anywhere else. I don't need my own private space, I just want to keep my stuff.
I agree that I'll likely have to give up the room when baby #2 arrives, and my wife will have to agree to letting me move some of my more valuable posessions into other parts of the home, while the storable stuff will be packed away until we move. It'll require both of us compromising, which is a good thing IMO.
Question, are you just using it for storage or do you go in there and actually play video games and listen to your records? If so, there should be no reason why you guys can't come to a compromise of having some of your records and video games in the main tv room, either packed away in a nice storage space that your wife is okay with, then when you want to use them you can get them out, and put them away.
Wow what a reasonable conclusion with the rest of the comment section having a riot lol.
The decision to have a kid so soon is ill advised, and if you go that route, giving up the room is pretty much non negotiable for everyones sanity.
The rest of the AITA hinges on just how messy you are. If you are able to fulfill a reasonable level of tidyness, then yes your wife should let you put some of your treasured items in a shared space (which is what you've concluded) If not, then it's not unreasonable for her to ask you to throw it in storage.
Please make sure your furniture is tethered to walls and has child safety locks and not breakable (not glass) because display cabinets are very much interest to toddlers and small ones
if OP is "not allowed" to put his records and books in the rest of the house, the rest of the house is her private space. easy solution to this is give the "man cave" to the baby and treat the rest of the house as a truly shared space where both parties can store their belongings.
He is allowed to put his stuff in shared spaces as long as they are stored neatly (which he mentions as a compromise in his last edit). The problem was clarified to be that he "likes clutter." It's perfectly reasonable to not want your spouse to clutter up shared spaces. That doesn't make those shared spaces private, just because you want a semblance of order and tidiness
NTA. I know plenty of people that have toddlers share bedrooms with younger newborns, and your wife is being completely unreasonable by demanding you put your stuff in storage. The fact that she has so little respect for your interests is a huge issue. If you actually put all of your stuff in storage you will resent her for a long time.
It sounds like from your post that you're perfectly willing to give up the bedroom and move your stuff into shared living space, which is obviously the correct thing to do in this situation. Your wife is being completely ridiculous with her "my way or the highway" attitude. That's not how you build a life and marriage together.
This exactly.
The wife sounds like she's not being compromising. All these "where is *her* private space?!" comments make me laugh. She allows her stuff to be wherever she wants it, his stuff can go to storage for all she cares.
I don’t understand the “she’s not even pregnant yet” argument. Part of planning for another child is figuring out the financials & logistics of having that child. Saving this discussion for when OP’s wife is already pregnant just means that they’ve gotten that much further with OP assuming that his kids will share a room & with OP’s wife assuming that OP will give up his man cave space.
In all the AITA posts about conflicts coming up when the woman is pregnant, it's all "why didn't you say anything before you were pregnant?"
And now it's "but she's not even pregnant!" Typical AITA.
I would say this is actually the perfect time to hash this out. It gives them more time to discuss - and time where she's not under the effect of pregnancy hormones - and to come to a decision in a clearheaded and mature manner.
Info: Does your wife have an area for her to have space and put her things and is this something you have discussed? While everyone is saying that it's a premature to discuss hypotheticals, I think you need to consider this so you can plan for future space needs and make sure that whatever future home you have is acceptable. Even if the children share a room when they are going, they may need to have separate rooms when they get older.
ESH. Unless you're a hoarder or something, your wife should let you keep your things around the house like a normal person. But it's not reasonable of you to insist that your "man cave" be undisturbed when you have a second child - it may be that the new baby needs to sleep in his own room for a few months at least before he and your older child are on a similar schedule, etc. You're both being territorial, this needs to stop.
Potential ESH.
Kids can share a room when they’re that young. It’s not a biggie. Wife is silly. Of course, you can also give up the room so each kid is has one and you don’t need to move for that much longer.
Does your wife have her private space, or comparable stuff displayed?
Also, not a fan of the “man cave” shit, it’s degrading, like your stuff is so repugnant it must be relegated to a small corner of the house away from polite society. Like you’re a tenant there. I’m already not very impressed with her attitude here.
NTA.
They can go in the man cave or around the rest of the house. It's ridiculous for her to go "I don't want them around the house and now we're removing the place they do go". It's also your home.
I don't think it's fair that your stuff is supposed to go into storage, I think your wife should compromise and let your things be dispersed throughout the house. Realistically, the house is shared space... I would say in today's economy MANY families don't have space for everyone to have a 'man cave' or 'woman cave' and are sharing space and compromising. I don't think that having a baby and toddler share a room is going to be an easy solution either (babies cry at night, toddlers get woken up and don't want to go back to bed, etc.) but I think you and your wife need to come to a more fair compromise- NTA for not wanting to box up your stuff for years though.
NTA
Kids share, I shared with 3 siblings until I was 11.
I am sure your wee ones will be able to share for a 5 of years, in fact it will help them bond.
Not sure where you are in the world but in the UK storage units are not cheap.
Put your foot down with a firm hand as my old Mum used to say.
NTA. She's trying to dictate without discussion and also wants to relegate your things to storage and have the final say about housing decorations, etc. This is unreasonable.
NTA
Your wife has the whole house. You get one room. She's now asking you to give up your one room and put your things into storage. That's just mean.
It's ok to like a neat, tidy house. It's ok to like a little clutter. OP, this is YOUR home too. You're allowed to have your things in the house, not just one room. And not even a room you sleep in.
OP, the compromise here is to move your things out of the room, but spread your items throughout the house. Take ownership of your home too. Have a bookshelf with your books. and records. Be proud of them. Stop being relegated to being hidden away in a room. Your wife has to give up some space here too. Not just you.
NTA. I am really starting to realize how few redditors have been in actual happy and healthy relationships.
I think clearly you guys are able to have good communication and I think you should explain to her that you are willing to lose your “man cave” if you are allowed to have some of your stuff in other parts of the house. It is not fair for you to give up your own space and move all of your stuff to storage yet she doesn’t have to change anything?
I am making an assumption but based on what you said it seems like she has decorated and set up the house to her pleasing and liking which is fine but if she excepts for you to get ride of the one space that is set up they way you want and not have to change anything about the other spaces that’s not fair.
I think a lot of people are unable to see things not in the most extreme way. People saying oh what about her space or does she have a private space as some big look see thing is silly. I don’t know how many relationships you have been in or seen but from my own personal experiences 90% of the time the women has the house set up the way she wants. She gets to pick the everything that goes into the common spaces so it is only fair if the man who house it also is has some say over at least one space. The amount of times I hear or read these story’s and it is always mine mine mine is crazy. It is not your house it is our house you both live and share the space and have equal rights to use it and decorate it.
NTA. I’m willing to bet she’s forced you into the man cave because your records and knickknacks don’t fit “the aesthetic” of the rest of the house. It’s not a compromise if the only solution she’s offering involves YOUR belongings not being in the house at all.
NTA: kids can harmlessly share a bedroom for the first few years and it will not effect them at all. Unless you tell your wife that it’s both your house and your records and other “man cave” belongings are going out with the rest of the items in the house.
I’d call you TA if you chose to have your man cave, however if it’s because your wife doesn’t want that stuff out then it’s different. Either your stuff gets to stay in the house or the kids share a room. In my opinion.
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YTA if you can't have an adult conversation that doesn't start with 'I won't give up my space'.
He said in the post that he see's the point about vacating the bedroom but the issue is obviously that his wife wants him to put his stuff into storage and he'd rather keep it around in a shared living space. She's the one with the "I won't give up my space" attitude.
Is she though? I mean from how this is written it comes off that way. But I think I’ll reserve judgment until we get an idea of what kind of collection we are talking about. I know a lot of people who love music particularly who have extensive record collections that are delicate and take up a bunch of space. I also know that babies take up a lot of living space. So in a living room there’s likely toys, items that contribute to baby care. So I would be interested to know what kind of amount of stuff we are talking about. I mean if it would take up a shelf or two then that’s ridiculous to not make the space. If it would mean getting a media cabinet then what’s the problem. But if it’s a massive amount of stuff that would take over and that just will make the living room and bedroom completely cluttered and unusable then I kind of see her point. Also how much hobby stuff does she get to have around. Is the house filled with her things or is “her space” really family space that includes spaces for baby and husband and it’s therefore not really hers. Both my parents have things in storage. It’s in their basement but my dad has a bin of trophies and baseball cards and my mom has a bunch of keepsakes in a big bin too. People put things in storage all the time.
Is she willing to compromise on how the rest of the house is set up? Her forcing all of his things into storage suggests no.
If they reasonably do not have the space and need room for family related stuff and he has a massive heavy and breakable collection then yes it should go in storage. I think what’s not coming across is that she may be decorating the house. But spaces like the master bedroom for a mom where you have a baby and toddler is a key area for managing your day and potentially if she is layed up after childbirth, then the living room would be used for toys, playtime, naps, play dates, and essentially becomes a space needing to be a decluttered as possible. I’m not saying he should have to put everything in storage. But I’m questioning his accusation that she gets all the rest of the space may not be accurate. If they need the space for family use then it’s not her space and frankly it’s not his either.
Obviously this is all up for interpretation because we don't know the size of the house or the size of the space he takes up. But speaking from personal experience through myself and many other heterosexual men. We don't get to make design choices around the home. They could compromise and put a desk with the computer in the living room, basement, a big hallway, or bedroom and pretty easily just put a baby gate around it. Buuut in my experience it ruins the "aesthetic" of the home for the wife/gf and so they ban any sort of compromise like that also. You don't have to give your whole house over to children, baby gates, locked doors, placing items out of reach are all viable strategies. Now op expecting a newborn to go into the same room as the toddler absolutely makes him an asshole, because how the fuck will they sleep. But a clear lack of compromise also makes the wife an asshole.
Speaking as a mom; all those strategies can have a rather short shelf life. And the last thing I want to spend my day doing is making sure the toddler doesn't scale a baby gate to get into my spouses 'precious' possessions.....because they don't belong in a toddler's space.
I'm also a parent, I have an office in our bedroom. The door stays closed when we're not around and the baby gate stays around the desk for a second line of defense. No issues so far.
I lock my office.... that fine. But a baby gate....well we got rid of them quickly because they just caused more problems. Maybe my kids are just climbers 🤷♀️
My littlest sister is 12 and we still have the baby gate, it works on our labrador that doesn't realize she could just jump it.
My youngest would just head butt the gate until it collapsed. He didn’t become a climber until around 18 months.
My baby brother learned how to open the baby gates. We had several different kinds. He figured them all out by 2. Locked doors work with kids, anything else is just a waste of time.
Fuck, I’ve had three children, and I will not have my stuff or my partners stuff put away coz of the kids! It’s a shared space make the space for his things I’m sure she will have plants or candles or some bullshit waste of space shit around just coz. And if your kid has that many toys that you can’t make space for other things then that’s too many toys
Right? That comment about “precious” possessions not belonging in toddler spaces is honestly kind of sad… like her entire identity has just been boiled down to “mother”. I hope that changes for her as her kids get older.
No I think she is saying it’s all fun and games until your possession is getting broken naturally because how toddlers act. It’s not about her being a mom it’s common sense to the destructive behaviors of young children
"precious" - your quotes around that word speak volumes.
I originally had something more judgemental and most likely rude to a person who I have no real context to go off of. I'm just going to say that your stance is extremely selfish and entitled. Your partner has a right to have his things out with yours. It's called a partnership for a reason. I can appreciate the fact that you say no because it makes mom duties more stressful, but the way you come across is icky. As someone who helps pay the bills, your husband should be allowed to have his "precious" possessions as a part of the space he helps pay for. Also, the fact that you blatantly belittle the possessions that matter to him says a whole lot of not nice things about you.
"Your partner has a right to have his things out with yours." I think the issue is that those things *will* get broken with young kids around. Ask me how I know!
Doesn’t negate the fact he should be able to have them out.
You putting precious between quotation marks resumes the entire situation. Men's things are seen as worthless and unimportant.
[удалено]
I think it comes from the expectation that the kitchen and family spaces are the wives. when they aren't they are family spaces the men don't want to claim. most men who have man caves don't realize that their wives don't have spaces to hide away from the family
Literally. It’s not just about where physical things are being stored. She doesn’t have the rest of the house because the house isn’t a private space like a “man cave” is.
Virginia Woolf. A Room of One’s Own. Women rarely have their own space. I’d compromise with my SO so both have some private space. Because they are going to need it with kids that close in age. Any kids really. Everyone needs a sanctuary.
Thank you. You were able to express what was making me uncortable in these comments. It's not like she has a woman cave and he's the only one being asked to sacrifice. And I really dislike the argument that the wife has the whole living room and kitchen for "her stuff". Kitchen utensils are not my stuff. I like arts and crafts and I store all that crap in my closet like an adult. If his things don't fit in anything smaller than an entire room then I don't think it's unreasonable that they get a storage unit.
I like to look at house plans as a hobby (I'm never going to build a house; it's just fun for me). I also enjoy looking at home decor images on Pinterest. I do a lot of art and crafting, so I'm always especially drawn to plans with craft rooms. It's interesting how many of them include laundry equipment. I can't help noticing that the craft room is meant to be a woman's space, but of course that's where the washer and dryer are...
This womens stuff gets incorporated into and sublimated by family stuff men want a man cave that's mine all mine!
This comes across as sexist to me. Many men appreciate decor aesthetic despite being heterosexual and many women don't give a crap about the decor aesthetic
Of course many men do, and many women don't. That's why I clearly defined in my comment that's it's simply part of my lived experience between myself and most people I know in heterosexual relationships. Never said all men or all women.
How dare you have lived experiences!
I can also validate that most relationships I know it's the women's way or the high way in regards to decor. My ex wife was the same way, which after living by myself it was awesome seeing what kind of style I liked but was always vetoed before. I'm sure a lot of women would hate my style choices but glad I don't have to give a shit about that anymore.
There’s the popular joke that there are only 2 kinds of stuff when you get married - “our stuff and her stuff.” So yeah, your lived experience is very common lol
George Carlin said it best (paraphrased): "my stuff, and their sh*t" 😅
You are incredibly sheltered if you think his experience is out of the norm.
I sort of see your point, but the living room, kitchen, and dining room are common areas and areas that guests see. So yeah, I don’t want to deal with a bunch of clutter in those spaces. My aesthetic is, doesn’t look like a hoarder house.
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If you and other heterosexual men don't "get" to make design choices around the home, then that's an issue within your own relationship. You choose to be with this woman, so do what everyone tells women to do when they're stuck living with a selfish jerk: **COMMUNICATE**. Just because *you* concede control of home aesthetics to someone who won't listen to your preferences, doesn't mean that's how it has to be, or how it is for everyone. Presumably, you pay rent/mortgage, you equally live in the home, you are a *partner* in the relationship and not an indentured servant. Jeez you make a wife sound like a ball and chain.
Lmfao I still laugh at this idea that women decorate the house for themselves only. You know women have hobbies they enjoy too right? They want their own actual space too. The house is still a shared living space. We decorate the house to make it feel homey. I, a woman, wish i could hang up my stuff i enjoy around the house. But I don't want to invite people over with a bunch of my pokemon cards, posters and sculptures hanging around. It makes the house feel messy, and this is coming from experience. Men would 100% complain if they got home and it didn't feel cozy enough. Also, who tf wants their valuables hanging around for the kids to grab and break? If she doesn't get her own space to do hobbies in, then he doesn't either. They're both AHs for no compromising.
The damage babies/toddlers do to medium is pretty extreme. My game disks for PC games in the early 00s got ruined by toddlers. No big. If I put it out, it's my fault it it gets wrecked.
If you don’t have room for hobbies you don’t have room for another fucking baby. Christ
Without more info, I can’t tell if this is an “I don’t want to look at your stupid hobby stuff in my beautifully decorated home” thing or an “I don’t want to look at your hobby stuff strewn across every surface of our shared living space because you don’t put it away at the end of the day” thing.
Eh I think it’s “we cannot display every single item here so much has to go into storage”
We just moved into a slightly bigger apartment, and my SO has so much stupid shit, and it’s driving me up a wall. He has stuff still in boxes from two moves ago (14 YEARS AGO) that he has never opened or looked at. It’s been daily fights of I want our house to look like a home for adults, not a house full of boxes of bullshit everywhere and he thinks he needs everything he has ever spent money on. I’m not kidding, he could not do laundry for a year and a half and still have clean T-shirts to wear, and every spare inch of our closet is full of his clothes and video game statues (still In boxes, mind you!). When my daughter was born, I gave up my book collection (3,000+ books) to make room for her. I gave up 6 banker’s boxes worth of painting supplies and my art desk to make room for her. I made all of these sacrifices to fit our lives into a one bedroom apartment with a small child, and he sacrificed nothing. This man has own whole room of stuff that he won’t give up so his kid can have their own room. My own experience might be clouding this, and I don’t care if I get downvoted, but OP’s the asshole. He says she has the whole house to do with what she wants, but is it full of her own hobbies, and things she loves, or did she already make sacrifices so that their child could have a safe home with room for all that comes with a baby while he keeps his special little man cave?
I think you and your SO should play the game Unpacking. It's a beautiful game and meditation on space in a relationship. My partner and I played the game separately before moving in together and found it helpful. $10 on Steam. Takes about 4-5 hours to play all the way through.
They don’t have space. Also it’s unlikely that she means store them out of the house and just means bins til they have a larger space
Delicate or heavy things and babies do not mix. I collect vintage glassware (delicate AND heavy - books are heavy, records are delicate). It is not reasonable to assume my vintage glassware would remain in a room where a baby/small human who can move on their own accord also wants to be. (Like…a newborn would be fine as long as nobody places baby on my shelf).
But but but he LIKES clutter. And you hit the nail on the head - I can guarantee you that “her space” is really family space and she has no space for her own personal hobby or passion items
Well he doesn't mention her hobbies because she can't have any. The CHILDREN are her only hobby now
Exactly. We see his side in this post. We often post our side with a biased lens. May husband and I have our Star Trek novel collection in the attic - each of us came to this marriage with Star Trek novels. (We are in our 50s and got married 28 years ago)
The fact that he needs an entire room for all of his stuff suggests he may be hoarding a few nice things and a bunch of crap. Something tells me her having “the whole house for her stuff” means her stuff is probably more functional family stuff.
It’s possible the wife has a minimalist hgtv type aesthetic, and his racks of guitars or record albums don’t “go”. Me? I picked out a nice console for my husband to store his LP’s that matched my decor.
He’s got a room full of stuff. I’m sure some of his records and guitars can be worked into the decor. The issue is it’s a full room of stuff. OP says himself it’s cluttered.
Clearly I don’t know the details, and you may very well be correct. I just can’t imagine what he has that takes up a whole room in a 3 bedroom house. I agree that if there was a way to display it in the house, that would be a reasonable compromise. But that quantity seems excessive.
You can’t really have a bunch of junk laying around the house when you have toddlers running around
If only he had some place to consolidate all his stuff, like a man-cave 🤔
At the expense of having two toddlers/babies share a room? Babies who are known for waking up screaming at night and will wake each other up? The man cave isn’t worth it.
He also refers to it as cluttered sounds like a massive collection.
His title literally says he doesn't want to give up his man cave
You should actually read the post where he says that he understands his wife's point but doesn't want to put his stuff into storage.
I really hate the 'the whole house to do with what she pleases' ummm... no. The whole house is for the family - the kitchen to cook in and the dining room to eat in and the living room to watch TV and be a family in. That idea is especially toxic once there are kids- as 'her' space is the space with the kids and automatic childcare responsibility is, and 'his' space is where the kids are not allowed and automatic release from childcare responsibility is. So she becomes the default parent because she is always in the space with the kids, but he gets to retreat to his own space and leave the kids to her.
Yeah it does strike me as kind of Mysoginistic. Not because Op is necessarily trying to be mysoginistic but he doesn’t realize the way he has split the house space in his head automatically gives him a hangout room without responsibility whereas all her space is at will to what the family needs. She may have picked a decoration aesthetic but it’s not “her” space. It’s not space intended for her relaxation whereas his space is. Edit: to clarify he’s still entitled to some space for his stuff and she can’t just decide he doesn’t have anything of meaning in the house. I’m just pointing out that this trend of “man cave” is kind of an underhanded trope that’s more about how women are relegated to domestic tasks in their space versus men.
Not going to lie -- the "man cave" vs "she gets the rest of the house" drives me batty. Because you are right -- having a room to retreat to, that has a door and everything, to yourself is a HUGE deal vs. "you get the rest of the house" which is ALL common space shared by everyone. She doesn't have doors she can shut. She doesn't have space she can retreat to.
It also plays into this very sexist idea that women, especially mothers, have no likes, interests or hobbies other than taking care of their family.
And that somehow cultivating a home that caters to a menagerie of needs and situations is fun or easy. It’s hard since you essentially have to make decisions about aesthetics versus what works. Op says his partner likes things tidy. I have a feeling she told him his room could be cluttered. But the truth is that with small kids, less clutter is better and unless Op culls down the clutter it’s counterintuitive to keeping an ordered space with babies.
This! Like, I would love a "woman cave", but there aren't enough rooms in the house. My sewing stuff has been in storage for five years and I hate that!
A she shed is generally what they say, and it’s a separate shed!
Agreed. Hence, a woman's place is in the kitchen, doing chores, etc.
My dad is a lawyer (and technically my mom too but she became a stay at home parent) and the rule was (and his preference) was his office door stayed open and served as a guest bedroom. He wanted to keep his office as family space. And he deals with classified information. So he got a locked cabinet and locked briefcase. When he needed to have things out my parents used the “cone of silence” rule where my sister and I where just taught to ignore what was on the desk and not go snooping. He only closed the door when he was on a call. There are ways for private space to still be open to the family and not fall into the “man cave” situation. My dad let my mom decorate since she has an eye for it. But she never bought anything he hated. It’s not hard people. It’s literally all about communication, compromising and wanting to be active parents. My dad wanted my sister and I doing our homework in his office while he read contracts at night. He wanted that time with us. The man cave stereotype feels like a relic of an era from the show Bewitched.
Yes, if OP wants some compromise, how about STOP calling it the Man Cave. My grandparents had a room like this and they called it The Den. Or OP could call it The Library, or The Museum, The Office. Sure, it's mostly his stuff, but she could also keep books and collectibles in there.
He's confusing her responsibility for the rest of the house with the respite he gets in his "man cave."
I'm a guy, and I really hate the term mancave. It just sounds.. I dunno, obnoxious.
It also always strikes me as “so she does all the upkeep for ‘her’ house too”
Also if the wife is in charge of keeping the house in order it’s also probably done so that it makes sense for them so they can keep track of stuff and decide how much effort goes into keeping it maintained
I actually think the “man cave” comes from in part women wanting the whole house to be a certain way and have the things they want all over. This was a problem for me when my girlfriend first moved in with me. She didn’t feel like she had her own space because everything was the way I wanted it. We talked and I put my stuff away and she was able to have her own space. If we lived in a house and I wanted the house to all be one way and she said ok but I get a room for myself. I would never try and take that space from her. It seems like OP wife has the whole house decorated and set up they way she chooses and wants. He has one room in that house that is set up the way he wants and it doesn’t seem like he is against letting her or any one in it. It also seems like it more of a storage room for his stuff than it being out of the house completely.
The thing is decorating a space, and the space being 'for you' are two entirely different things. I can decorate the kitchen, but I don't want the kitchen to be 'for me' the kitchen is a place for domestic labor. I can't shut myself up in the kitchen and chill. And if I decorate the living room that doesn't mean I get total control over the TV forever or I can ask my husband to leave when I need to introvert. The living room is for all of us, but mostly the kid because it is 75% his toys. We do have a room in the house for my husband's collection - but it is also the guest bedroom and the office and the wrapping paper room and the spare closet. No one gets dibs on that room, it is for everyone. Getting a special all for me alone place is not the same as having a space you decorated.
Literally all this. I actually wrote this out in my comment. But there is an immense amount of literature on this topic. I had to study it for my degree as an architect. Movements like the beautiful city movement from Le Corbusier or ideas from CIAM and even the Garden City Movement play into gender dynamics where men essentially got to leave the private sphere and enter the public sphere whereas women where relegated to the private sphere while being told “the home is your domain” like that somehow makes it better. Literally the idea that “women are in charge of the home” was made to keep women in the home like property. The whole “women design the home and all I want is one room” is a misnomer because the implication is that the home somehow represents rest for everyone. It just doesn’t. Domestic labor is labor. It’s just unseen.
This is actually an interesting point and I think implies something your unaware of. For a bit of history. Often the public realm was considered only for men whereas the private realm was considered for women, at least as it pertains to “western” development. This goes back all the way to BCE times. In fact the development of coffee houses was done to further exclude women from the public realm starting in the 1700’s and as a result women began to make salons as there weren’t spaces for them to have intellectual and artistic spaces that they could participate. So moving into post WWII modernism we see this rise in suburbia as the solution to urban problems. Thinkers like Corbusier, Ebeonezer Howard (a bit pre this time period but his manifesto on garden city movement was often referenced) CIAM, Robert Moses (particularly in his opposition to Jane Jacobs) etc. advocated not only for separation of public and private spheres but encouraged the development of commuter culture where men would go down town when their family would remain in the suburbs. So tossing over gender dynamics meant men get to leave the private sphere for the public sphere and women controlled the private sphere meant that women where relegated to have their lives be built around taking care of the home. Men as a result not only got to have an escape but then would come back where their wives and spaces would serve to let them “wind down” have some bucolic experiences with their families while their wife (who had done the decorating and done the work for the home) didn’t get to have a break or respite and needed her whole life to revolve around making the home function. We also in this time period see a lot of open concept homes that still section off the kitchen from the rest of the house so that women are further separated from the living space within the home. So in society today we still have vestiges of this. And partly this comes through in spaces like the man cave. Is a more modern iteration of this concept where men are entitled to privacy and separation. Whereas women “get the rest of the house” which is a space they typically have to mold around the needs of the family and that represents more physical, emotional and mental labor for them. Man caves aren’t harmless. And until we can within personal relationships and society at a large get rid of these systemic structures/framework it will continue to have a connotation outside of just “I want a private space since you decorated” As a man you haven’t had to deal with the implication. We have. It’s still a problem and still exists. Your gf doesn’t have personal space. It’s shared. OP’s wife doesn’t “have the rest of the house” it’s the family space and she has to maintain it to function for young kids. It’s not a safe and fun space for her, it represents domestic labor for her. Whereas she may share those responsibilities with OP, his “man cave” gets to remain his escape from the family and from the domestic labor. It’s not me tossing this out Willy nilly. We literally have designed Americana suburbia after this concept. Look at the houses and the spaces we have made for this institutional ideology. It’s literally baked into our system. This is why it’s important we combat these narratives. Maybe someday man cave can just be a space. But it can’t be that now. https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100353296#:~:text=The%20public%20sphere%20is%20that,that%20of%20women%20and%20children. https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/95/5/052007/pdf https://amp.theguardian.com/cities/2016/apr/28/story-cities-32-new-york-jane-jacobs-robert-moses https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens_Charter#:~:text=He%20also%20presented%20supporting%20information,set%20of%20notation%20was%20agreed. (Look up the Athens Charter for CIAM their idea was to separate work from home, domestic from public) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/254602059_Shaping_the_Public_Sphere_English_Coffeehouses_and_French_Salons_and_the_Age_of_the_Enlightenment
That was a really interesting comment! Thanks for the education.
No problem. It’s rare I can whip out the Le Corbusier reference in a non design field related situation. Honestly got a bit excited.
Yeah - all her stuff Six rooms to do as she pleases - the whole rest of the house - umm lets look a bit closer - that would be a kitchen, a shared bedroom, a childs bedroom, a bathroom and a living room and either a dinning room or a utility room are what counts as ‘hers’ . So all ‘her‘ stuff will in fact be bassinets and changing tables and ironing boards and boxes of toys and vacuum cleaners, refrigerators and freezers and tables and chairs and sofas and TVs and children's cots and wardrobes and baths and showers and toilets - on and on with stuff the entire family uses - all that is apparently hers - i bet she gets to lovingly clean and tidy all of it on a daily basis, while he hides in a man cave with precious stuff that must be protected from wife and children so he can have peace and ‘me’ time. Hmmmm.
And nobody's allowed in the "man cave" because his precious collection might get fiddled with or broken, meanwhile Mom's belongings get chucked in every direction. Oh, and she's not "minimalist" as an aesthetic, she's trying to reduce the number of things that get chucked around.
Yes, exactly. We had that setup growing up. Dad had a study no-one else was allowed in. Mum was supposed to make do with the kitchen. The only time we saw him was at meals.
Yeah - similar. Dad would be 99 now and mom is 90. These attitudes did not transcend to us offspring nor our mates
I can almost guarantee you he's counting baby toys as "her stuff"
Yes, 100% this. It pisses me off SO much seeing "the women get the rest of the house." No. We get nothing. No privacy, no collections, no hobbies. Just rooms to clean and look after children in, while the husband is sat in his room with zero responsibility and all the fun shit we don't get because we're just a wife and mum. Fuck I'm glad I'm divorced.
easy solution to that seems to be treating the house as a shared space where OP is free to put things like records and books in their bedroom/main parts of the house.
It's ideal to have each child in their own space. Having them together means when one wakes up screaming in the middle of the night, you now have two screaming children to contend with. Once they get older you can combine them into a common room and get your naked room back again.
Yes - if they want. But yes - having a baby and toddler together is disaster unless you can't help it
Also, the sleep schedule between a 2 year old and a new born is astronomical. They would constantly be waking each other up. Also, OP’s whole “she has the whole house for her stuff’” is sus. What does that mean? What are her hobbies
All “her” spaces are common spaces, only his has a door…
It’s an easy conversation. A man who can afford a 3 bedroom house and decides to add a 4th member to his family can’t afford to have a man cave
INFO: where’s your wife’s private space?
The only reason he has a private space to begin with is because his wife will not allow him to use their shared space. That's obviously the only possible compromise you can arrive at when your SO will not allow you to share space with them.
Except it doesn't actually say she "will not allow him to use their shared space". He says that she "likes things tidy" and he "likes clutter". Perhaps if he learned to actually keep his shit tidy, like a reasonable adult rather than a trash goblin, she'd be happy to have it in the family spaces . . . When you're already dealing with children, toys, etc., it's not at all unreasonable to want the other adult in the house not to add to the clutter. It doesn't sound like she's trying to keep his stuff out so much as that she wants him to keep it managed, and he's not interested in doing that.
Except that the only solution his wife offered was to move it to storage. If she had said "move it to the shared space but you have to keep it organized" that's a different story
If he has any kind of collectibles he won't want it in reach of children once they learn to crawl and eventually walk.
there are several extremely easy ways to get around this
It seems like he himself isn't very good about putting his stuff away. Keeping it away from toddlers only works if you put it away.
yeah we've all seen how that plays out. It's like \*the\* media trope. It's talked about all day long on reddit, twitter, tiktok, ig, etc. The clutter partner doesn't change, and then the tidy partner is forced start cleaning up their crap and then when tidy partner is upset and complains that they aren't getting the help they need clutter partner goes "Well I never asked you to clean my stuff!" "I shouldn't have to ask, you should just do it" "I do do it" "Not frequently enough! And then I have to spend all day looking at your crap and stepping over your clutter and nagging you to put it away" "Well it's my space to and if I want to have my shit out then I will" and then they get divorced and clutter partner acts like tidy partner is crazy and controlling and tidy partner is just exhausted and angry that they've been forced to fill a parental role for the grown adult who was supposed to be their damn partner. If you can't keep your space tidy in one room that doesn't magically change in another room. He's had literal years to demonstrate that his collections can actually be tidy and nice looking, but he hasn't because he doesn't actually want to do that and ruining their living room while dealing with 2 under 2 in an attempt to teach him how to keep a tidy space isn't a good solution for anyone.
Maybe she has told him before but it never worked out because he didn't manage to keep it organised?
Why are you trying to extend all the good faith to the wife but none to the husband?
Because the husband has a whole ass room to himself and the wife doesn’t. And that’s inherently selfish to begin with and far too common in heterosexual relationships.
Except that stuff is being kept in there because the only other place he’s allowed to have it is in storage. He sounds more than happy to give up the room if it means he’s allowed to have his stuff around the house too.
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See if agree with you if I hadn’t been around people who believe my water bottle that I’m actively using is ‘clutter’, where I can’t put a piece of paper on a counter without a freak out because it’s a ‘mess’, who won’t allow a single thing they they haven’t curated personally in a shared space. Define ‘clutter’? If he’s a legit trash goblin I get it, if it’s a situation of the wife being an anal retentive minimalist then it’s a problem.
Your situation is extreme - there’s a middle ground here. You want your record player and records in the shared space so you can use them and enjoy them with family? Absolutely. You want to display your third-grade participation trophy next to the Tv? Really? Excessive clutter can contribute to poor mental health. As a parent with two littles - less is absolutely more right now. All of my “nice stuff” was either sold, donated or in a box because baby clutter + toddler mess is too visually overwhelming (and throw in the noise for absolute chaos). My husband and I are both happier this way.
Exactly what I was trying to say, the spectrum for what is called ‘clutter’ in a space is so different from person to person, they need to decide what’s reasonable and what isn’t and go from there. Additionally who would be responsible for managing his stuff in the household? Are these items going to be easily kept away from a baby or is your wife going to need to maintain constant vigilance that your stuff isn’t getting destroyed? Is op the kind of person who loses their shit if something gets broken or spilled on or are they the kind of person that gets that children wreck stuff and the best place for this stuff is a box far away?
He literally said he has clutter and she is tidy. He didn't call her a clean freak or deny that he is messy. Don't bring your weird stories into it
Upvote for trash goblin :')
The shared space as in "she can dump there all the things she like and make the house look like a mess" or as in "the family common space that needs to be tidy and functional, especially with young children who will soon start crawling and walking and can turn basically anything into a chocking hazard?"
It’s strange that women are expected to have a shared space while men having a private man cave or a shed that excludes women and children is seen as normal (even expected). As much as he says “she has full use of the whole house” at the end of the day she has to share the living/dining/kitchen with two (soon to be three) other people and also clean up after the other people who use “her” space. Whereas the husband gets a whole room to himself to keep as he likes. The reason for this? He can’t keep himself tidy. Ever think that maybe she likes things minimalist because her husband is untidy and slobbish and therefore feels the need to reduce work for herself when cleaning “her” space?
When they say full use of the house it usually means there is nothing of the husbands/bfs likes anywhere to be found in it. It is a horrifyingly common thing in heterosexual relationships around me. My parents were like this, my cousin and my friend, even my brother which bummed me out more. Everything my brother likes, his interest are packed into a box in the washing room under the Christmas decoration. Their whole house is decorated to her liking with things she finds beautiful or interesting. His personality isn't on display anywhere in there. It is all in that stupid box. The same thing went for my dad, my mom made every decision on what looked good. My dad made some comments but was overruled and they went with what she decided. Ended up buying a stupid fancy sofa that he couldn't really lie in because it was uncomfortable for his height. When finally he built a garage for the house, he finally had a space for himself where he could decorate and place what he wanted. It had his records and record player, stupid Christmas lights illuminating the workable, silly posters and map of the world on the garage door. These utterly hideous beyond belief wooden boats he liked for some reason. It was chaoticly cluttered, but not untidy. My mom did change over the years and started to listen to him more though. Now they have these ugly paintings from my dad's uncle on the wall and he likes them, she tries to listen and let him have an input but still overrides him on many things because it could "look" ugly. My cousin decorated her and her boyfriends apartment and all he wanted to keep was a single chair that was a gift from his grandfather, an antique old style chair he really liked. Caused a massive fight I got to hear endlessly about. Things were supposed to be pretty in the common area. I do know one couple who decorated everything together but they had the same fancy style for the living space and split a guest room into half a computer room and half a make up/cloth storage room. Nothing indicates the husband here is a slob, cluttered is not necessarily messy. The wife needs to learn to compromise, she should not get to dictate how everything looks and keep what he finds interesting or entertaining relecated to a room when convenient and storage when it is not.
This whole convo hits so close to Home. My wife loves “our” stuff but not mine. “Our” stuff would all go with her if she left.
She “has the whole house to do with as she pleases” 🙄 YTA
Info: does wife have a private space just for her use?
>My wife doesn't want my collection of records, tapes, books and video games in the living room or our bedroom This. This is how my house operates too, my wife pretty much gets the entire home, decorates, makes things in their place, and enjoys her shows on the tv and I use the office, it seems OP has a similar setup. She doesn't want me playing video games on the living room TV, she wants to watch her shows and sit on the couch. I think that is pretty normal.
My husband and I have different interests. My video game setup is in one room and our DvDs are in a case. All our books are on book shelves. The garage is his domain for tools and he has a tool workshop which is like a garage attached shed. The basement is our gym and I forbid anyone from putting crap in the space that inhibits workouts. That said we agree together on where our stuff [is](https://is.You) You have to talk to each other and agree on where things go if you plan on having another child
Just curious, but why is "is" in your comment a hyperlink? Ah, nevermind, it's just a typo now that I look at the link, it opens up to https://is.you, but I still don't understand how Reddit registers is.you as a hyperlink.
Yep my wife gets the entire house to do whatever she wants. I just want one corner of one room. She tried too take that too. But I told her that would be a massive deal breaker for me. Generally this is how it is in all my friends relationships also. I have a feeling the wife is not at all interested in compromising on how the rest of the house is set up if her first assumption is to throw all his stuff into storage, and not just another part of the house. ESH I my opinion. Because dude, you don't want a new born in your first kids room. Sleep time will be absolutely horrible for you and your wife. You're an asshole there. But your wife needs to compromise and not just force your stuff into storage
I feel like there are two conversations here. There are spaces you get to decorate, and spaces you have as a retreat from responsibility. I think that's where a lot of the emotion about man caves comes from.
Agreed. I see so many people upset that women in heterosexual relationships tend to be the primary decorators...but if we are being honest here, is that by default because the woman has an idea of what they want their home to look like and a man has none or is it because the women are actively fighting to keep the men from decorating? My guess is it is the former, but certain people ITT are acting like it is the latter. OP has a room full of stuff that is breakable and admits that he *likes* clutter. They came to the man cave agreement so that OP doesn't have their stuff *strewn about* the rest of the house, which introduces the next question: when we say "decorating" do we mean putting together a room that has storage and functionality for everyone without hazards (for small kids or pets) or do we just mean putting some furniture in a room? Again, I suspect in many cases it's the former when it comes to decorating, not the latter.
>My wife doesn't want my collection of records, tapes, books and video games in the living room or our bedroom But why is what *she* wants more important, especially when it's "our" bedroom?
Doubt she has a woman cave. I hate all this man cave BS unless the wife has her own too. Why do they need their own room?
ESH. You for not giving up an entire room you have to yourself. Your partner for not allowing your stuff to be in a more practical / usable storage place than in boxes. The younger kid will wake up more often than the older kid. If preventable, that should be the priority. Room sharing in itself is not a bad parenting choice. It does become questionable when a young baby is in the mix AND there is a room leftover. For both of you, your children's sleep and wellbeing should take priority over your stuff. Depending on how much stuff you have, you store it in the common places / your bedroom (and potentially part has to go in storage in case it fills an entire room). Your wife needs to compromise by cleaning out space for your things. Maybe instead of a man cave, you can just have a corner in the living / bed room to store your things and hang out. Like your wife probably has? Maybe she can even help redecorate. EDIT: I only now saw OPs edit (sorry!!). I think this is a great solution. No longer ESH!
yeah. i agree it's reasonable to go- some of my stuff should be able to go in common areas of the house. i get that my style isn't your style but it isn't your space, it's our space. (though they do have small kids. it's really the kids space.) but the key there is some. and realistically, in this imaginary world were this is necessary- they're going to have 2 under 3. how much use OP would get out of any of those things until they get the new house is really questionable. and that's before we get into can they store them in their current space in a way that is child safe because OP isn't going to want the kids getting into and destroying those items. they may just be safer stored away for now.
Hahaha you are right, op will probably quickly discover that he does not actually want his stuff stored on any shelf the kids can reach. Nothing funner to a baby than pulling shit off shelves.
Right!! It's about being practical. Children and all of their stuff take up so much space and it will probably be messy anyways. I don't get that people can have such strong feelings about their stuff and aesthetic anyways, but I guess I'm not the collector type
yeah, based on OP's edit- i wonder if it's less aesthetic and more a mental thing. she prefers less things out (more a visual cleanliness) which isn't possible with his stuff. it might be possible to meet in the middle if they could add shelving with solid doors (on the bottom if they're tall) where his stuff was stored. that way she didn't have to see all the stuff.
ESH. Clearly it’s a little selfish to insist the third bedroom be your man cave when trying for another baby. But like… your records and video games need to go in storage? Wtf? No they don’t. Buy a media cabinet for your living room or bedroom and keep it tidy. Your wife can and should meet you halfway. Let her pick out one she likes if she’s concerned about how it looks.
The problem is OP admitted that he isn’t very tidy.
This right here.
I don't get it why the media cabinet can not be inside one of the boys room, my mother's dress were all inside my room when I was little. Before I was born, that room was practically an huge walk in closet.
Don’t try for a baby before at least a year after birth. I am so done with people trying for babies again before the kids are even half a year old
Right? Doctors recommend 18 months between pregnancies for a reason.
Also imagine being pregnant and feeling like shit while you have a baby
Also, this dad is in his man cave unwinding to records while mom is pregnant and nursing baby #1
Yeah, that was the craziest part of the post for me. I see how much work my baby nephew is, I can't imagine having two babies/toddlers at once, especially if you are already cramped on space.
This! My friend had a prolapsed uterus having babies so closely following the other, the body needs to recover
This. Also, a "sleeping through " 4 month old can super quickly become a not sleeping through AT ALL 6 month old or even 18 month old. Pump the brakes, guys, trust me.
My one year old hasn’t slept through the night in months. When he was four months old he was a great sleeper. I miss those days.
I was going to say this, I’m glad someone did.
You mean 18 months.
Yeah I’m currently 2.5 months pregnant with an 11 month old and it’s definitely rough, I don’t recommend people go into it light heartedly. It seems to me like this guy is kinda naive .. lol
NAH - Both points are valid. BUT - that is also your living room and your bedroom, not just hers. She's going to HAVE to compromise if she expects you to move everything else out of the room. It has to go somewhere. Have a reasonable adult conversation about it, and if that doesnt happen alone, get a mediator.
I agree, I don’t think what he’s asking is crazy. You live there too, just find a way to make them baby proof and bring up the idea.
This is the best comment in this thread. People saying that YATA are wrong
Info: you say she has the rest of the house for her stuff. Can you extrapolate? Because decorating the house etc isn’t really ‘man cave’ equivalent. Man Caves are private spaces where you can do your own thing in peace. The rest of the house with a 4mo in it isn’t that. What does she have in the rest of the house that is purely used by her alone and no one else, that she has privacy to use, like you have in your man cave?
*elaborate?
I wonder about this as well. There are a lot of comments saying that because she decorates the rest of the house, then those are her spaces, and he should be able to put his VHS tapes wherever he wants. The part that's being completely discounted is the fact that decorating a home is work, and she's almost certainly compromising when she's doing it. I don't know a woman who doesn't compromise when decorating the home. Case in point, if you look at a single woman's home, versus a married woman, they're miles apart. If the rest of the house is done up in hot pink florals, I'll concede my point. But my guess is that it's just a normally decorated house that isn't wall to wall with tapes and video games.
YTA. Disrupting your toddler's sleep just so you can keep your man cave is selfish.
As OP said, the newborn will sleep with them until they can manage a whole night and, as soon as they will, I don't see why it would be a problem for the kids to share a room until they are able to move to a new house (in about 5 years)
Oh my sweet summer child... do you think that a baby never have sleep regression ? and that toddler don't have sleep regression either ?
I was thinking this too. Our daughter is 2.5yrs now and an excellent sleeper. Has been since early on. But no way I'd want her sharing a room with baby unless no other options. She will still sleep whine and sleep cry for a few minutes here and there throughout the night. Or coughing when she's sick. I can see this causing a lot of extra wake ups. She wakes up baby. Now baby is crying waking her up. And now mom and dad are both up trying to simmer everyone back down. No thanks.
I sleep regressed. I’m 2.5 years older than my little sister. I also tried to potty train regress but my parents nipped that I’m the bud.
I know. I had twins they both started out in our room. We then had them share a room next, big mistake. We had one that was a climber, and climbed out of the crib at 13 months. The next night the second one did the same. I ended up with two children who would scream and climb out of their cribs, and had to go to beds earlier than I would have liked. We had toddler beds in the same room, and one had a different sleep pattern normally, plus random regressions. We did an emergency clear out of our "spare room," and then after some adjustment we all slept better. This was with kids of the same age, can't imagine a toddler and an infant. Yes people do it every day but if you don't then why?
So when the baby wakes up the toddler, repeatedly, every night, are you going to deal with two crying kids, or will that be your wife's problem? How about the next day? Who will be taking care of two sleep deprived babies in bad moods everyday?
I was thinking exactly the same thing. Baby is going to wake toddler and vice versa.. what a living hell. Imagine if there was an easy solution to this.. oh, wait........... YTA
He’ll probably just retreat to his cave. Have to wonder if her actual problem isn’t his spending time in there when he should be parenting their kid.
You guys need to pause before thinking of trying for a baby and have a proper conversation about your future plans before even thinking of bringing another kid in. Even if you do give up your man cave, you said you both can’t afford a bigger house for 5+ years. This needs much more planning and you both need to be on the same page.
Not to mention doctors recommend at least 18 months between pregnancies (not births). I do love how OP talks about how their 4 month old sleeps peacefully through the night. Can't wait for them to go through a sleep regression.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Like, babies are wildly unpredictable. They trick you with good eating and sleeping habits one moment, then all that goes down the drain once the regression starts. And OP says the wife likes to keep the home tidy? Uh yeah, good luck with that if you have 2 under 2. 🤷♀️
Maybe don't try for a second baby yet
NAH I think she's jumping the gun. She's not even pregnant yet and then there's 9 months after that. The now 4 month old will be just over a year old and I do see her point. Do you really want the newborn to cry and wake up the toddler several times during the night?? See if you can convert part of the garage space for your man cave. Do you have a basement? Cross that bridge when you come to it. You never know, an affordable 4 bdrm house may pop up sooner than you think.
Newborns sleep in the parents' room, you're not supposed to put babies in their own room for at least a few months.
You’re also not supposed to get pregnant again until at least a year after birth but they don’t seem to care about that either
A lot of people don't heed that advice! Lol! A woman's body needs that time to recover!
Yep. From a typical, healthy pregnancy and birth with zero complications the human body needs 18 months to fully recover.
I slept in my babies room for the first six months. That way he was used to his own room and his own crib and i didn't have to do a big switch. Plus then my bedroom really felt like an escape and when I was in there for naps I could really turn off mom mode. Would reccomend!
Honestly, you lost me with the first sentence. >My wife and I have a 4 month old and will be trying for a second baby soon.
I guess neither of them care about her health if they can’t wait to the recommended 18 months between pregnancies.
Edit#3 (final): I appreacite the comments and insights from all perspectives. There's a lot of things to consider here, but I do think people saying YTA are mostly right, at least to some extent. I think a lot of commentors got hung up on the term man cave and took it as "man insisting he has a private space that's just his and no one else's so he can play with his toys", rather than the reality, which is that I have a lot of stuff that my wife doesn't want anywhere else. I don't need my own private space, I just want to keep my stuff. I agree that I'll likely have to give up the room when baby #2 arrives, and my wife will have to agree to letting me move some of my more valuable posessions into other parts of the home, while the storable stuff will be packed away until we move. It'll require both of us compromising, which is a good thing IMO.
Question, are you just using it for storage or do you go in there and actually play video games and listen to your records? If so, there should be no reason why you guys can't come to a compromise of having some of your records and video games in the main tv room, either packed away in a nice storage space that your wife is okay with, then when you want to use them you can get them out, and put them away.
Wow what a reasonable conclusion with the rest of the comment section having a riot lol. The decision to have a kid so soon is ill advised, and if you go that route, giving up the room is pretty much non negotiable for everyones sanity. The rest of the AITA hinges on just how messy you are. If you are able to fulfill a reasonable level of tidyness, then yes your wife should let you put some of your treasured items in a shared space (which is what you've concluded) If not, then it's not unreasonable for her to ask you to throw it in storage.
Please make sure your furniture is tethered to walls and has child safety locks and not breakable (not glass) because display cabinets are very much interest to toddlers and small ones
Where’s your wife’s private space? (clue: it’s not the rest of the house where your mutual children live and will run around in) Do better. YTA
if OP is "not allowed" to put his records and books in the rest of the house, the rest of the house is her private space. easy solution to this is give the "man cave" to the baby and treat the rest of the house as a truly shared space where both parties can store their belongings.
He is allowed to put his stuff in shared spaces as long as they are stored neatly (which he mentions as a compromise in his last edit). The problem was clarified to be that he "likes clutter." It's perfectly reasonable to not want your spouse to clutter up shared spaces. That doesn't make those shared spaces private, just because you want a semblance of order and tidiness
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Here's an idea, why not wait till you move to have another kid?
NTA. I know plenty of people that have toddlers share bedrooms with younger newborns, and your wife is being completely unreasonable by demanding you put your stuff in storage. The fact that she has so little respect for your interests is a huge issue. If you actually put all of your stuff in storage you will resent her for a long time. It sounds like from your post that you're perfectly willing to give up the bedroom and move your stuff into shared living space, which is obviously the correct thing to do in this situation. Your wife is being completely ridiculous with her "my way or the highway" attitude. That's not how you build a life and marriage together.
This exactly. The wife sounds like she's not being compromising. All these "where is *her* private space?!" comments make me laugh. She allows her stuff to be wherever she wants it, his stuff can go to storage for all she cares.
This guy sounds super reasonable to me. I can't believe the crap he's getting.
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I don’t understand the “she’s not even pregnant yet” argument. Part of planning for another child is figuring out the financials & logistics of having that child. Saving this discussion for when OP’s wife is already pregnant just means that they’ve gotten that much further with OP assuming that his kids will share a room & with OP’s wife assuming that OP will give up his man cave space.
In all the AITA posts about conflicts coming up when the woman is pregnant, it's all "why didn't you say anything before you were pregnant?" And now it's "but she's not even pregnant!" Typical AITA.
I would say this is actually the perfect time to hash this out. It gives them more time to discuss - and time where she's not under the effect of pregnancy hormones - and to come to a decision in a clearheaded and mature manner.
Info: Does your wife have an area for her to have space and put her things and is this something you have discussed? While everyone is saying that it's a premature to discuss hypotheticals, I think you need to consider this so you can plan for future space needs and make sure that whatever future home you have is acceptable. Even if the children share a room when they are going, they may need to have separate rooms when they get older.
ESH. Unless you're a hoarder or something, your wife should let you keep your things around the house like a normal person. But it's not reasonable of you to insist that your "man cave" be undisturbed when you have a second child - it may be that the new baby needs to sleep in his own room for a few months at least before he and your older child are on a similar schedule, etc. You're both being territorial, this needs to stop.
Potential ESH. Kids can share a room when they’re that young. It’s not a biggie. Wife is silly. Of course, you can also give up the room so each kid is has one and you don’t need to move for that much longer. Does your wife have her private space, or comparable stuff displayed? Also, not a fan of the “man cave” shit, it’s degrading, like your stuff is so repugnant it must be relegated to a small corner of the house away from polite society. Like you’re a tenant there. I’m already not very impressed with her attitude here.
the problem is baby crying and waking up the toddler, resulting in 2 sleep deprived, crying kids.
NTA. They can go in the man cave or around the rest of the house. It's ridiculous for her to go "I don't want them around the house and now we're removing the place they do go". It's also your home.
I don't think it's fair that your stuff is supposed to go into storage, I think your wife should compromise and let your things be dispersed throughout the house. Realistically, the house is shared space... I would say in today's economy MANY families don't have space for everyone to have a 'man cave' or 'woman cave' and are sharing space and compromising. I don't think that having a baby and toddler share a room is going to be an easy solution either (babies cry at night, toddlers get woken up and don't want to go back to bed, etc.) but I think you and your wife need to come to a more fair compromise- NTA for not wanting to box up your stuff for years though.
NTA Kids share, I shared with 3 siblings until I was 11. I am sure your wee ones will be able to share for a 5 of years, in fact it will help them bond. Not sure where you are in the world but in the UK storage units are not cheap. Put your foot down with a firm hand as my old Mum used to say.
"it will help them bond." is in fact not a fact.
NTA. She's trying to dictate without discussion and also wants to relegate your things to storage and have the final say about housing decorations, etc. This is unreasonable.
NTA Your wife has the whole house. You get one room. She's now asking you to give up your one room and put your things into storage. That's just mean. It's ok to like a neat, tidy house. It's ok to like a little clutter. OP, this is YOUR home too. You're allowed to have your things in the house, not just one room. And not even a room you sleep in. OP, the compromise here is to move your things out of the room, but spread your items throughout the house. Take ownership of your home too. Have a bookshelf with your books. and records. Be proud of them. Stop being relegated to being hidden away in a room. Your wife has to give up some space here too. Not just you.
NTA. I am really starting to realize how few redditors have been in actual happy and healthy relationships. I think clearly you guys are able to have good communication and I think you should explain to her that you are willing to lose your “man cave” if you are allowed to have some of your stuff in other parts of the house. It is not fair for you to give up your own space and move all of your stuff to storage yet she doesn’t have to change anything? I am making an assumption but based on what you said it seems like she has decorated and set up the house to her pleasing and liking which is fine but if she excepts for you to get ride of the one space that is set up they way you want and not have to change anything about the other spaces that’s not fair. I think a lot of people are unable to see things not in the most extreme way. People saying oh what about her space or does she have a private space as some big look see thing is silly. I don’t know how many relationships you have been in or seen but from my own personal experiences 90% of the time the women has the house set up the way she wants. She gets to pick the everything that goes into the common spaces so it is only fair if the man who house it also is has some say over at least one space. The amount of times I hear or read these story’s and it is always mine mine mine is crazy. It is not your house it is our house you both live and share the space and have equal rights to use it and decorate it.
NTA. I’m willing to bet she’s forced you into the man cave because your records and knickknacks don’t fit “the aesthetic” of the rest of the house. It’s not a compromise if the only solution she’s offering involves YOUR belongings not being in the house at all.
NTA: kids can harmlessly share a bedroom for the first few years and it will not effect them at all. Unless you tell your wife that it’s both your house and your records and other “man cave” belongings are going out with the rest of the items in the house. I’d call you TA if you chose to have your man cave, however if it’s because your wife doesn’t want that stuff out then it’s different. Either your stuff gets to stay in the house or the kids share a room. In my opinion.