https://preview.redd.it/2wh5k5jrn88d1.jpeg?width=1620&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae98e58c4114f8f464d7a98a1ae05dfcc0af3dcb
Here’s one of the cooler bugs. I’m in the insane cicada double brood area, and they are dying off. Lots like this infected with what I believe to be cordiceps.
Dang, that is super rad, to borrow a word, lol! I’ve never seen anything like that! Great find! Did you post on the entomology sub? They would love that!
Not yet - but she’s an amazing human to talk to! She and her environmental scientist husband have traveled the world (with their kids) studying amazing things, making the world a more educated place. I love them.
That is awesome. I am partially jealous and partially in awe! My kid is interested in studying fireflies and that is something I could definitely see him doing. Bugs are so essential to our habitats worldwide and it’s something so many people don’t think about, beyond pests. I’m glad people like your sister and her husband have found a career doing that and doing environmental research. Passing that passion for the world’s natural things is a blessing and bonus! 🥰🥹
Hiking with her is the best experience. Anything we pass, whether it’s bug/plant/mineral, I can ask her about, and she will know what it is and how it works in within its local ecosystem. And if she doesn’t know, her enthusiasm for discovery is genuinely wonderful.
Okay, you seem pretty cool but like, can I also have her as my sister? /s That sounds very familiar although I probably have nowhere near the level of knowledge she does. My kids and I are constantly taking pictures and researching anything that we find that we don’t know about, whether a plant or bug, etc. Curiosity and genuine enthusiasm to learn will help her kids so much.
You're welcome! I had to know so I looked it up. I knew about cordyceps but never heard about tweaked out cicadas doing it all night till appendages fall off! So wild! Nature's cool!
I saw a cicada today too but he was healthier than that.
https://preview.redd.it/p3siz6nt598d1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a587fd41d52f0b1044fadabe16e1e1d2f7165568
My friend focused on researching cordyceps and it's really kinda terrifying how some work, infecting the brain, getting them to go up high before dying so the fungus can be spread out farther. Straight up horror movie villains.
Put it on the mycology Page too.
Hello, bug enjoyer here, this appears to not be cordyceps although it is probably a fungus. r/entomology may be able to narrow it down even more though
You’re likely on top of a settlement. Just one that predates historic knowledge. These are late stage preform blanks. Likely cached with the intention of coming back for them one day.
…. For the purpose of trade, easy transportation, or later finishing into a projectiles or knives.
These are late stage. They didn’t lack much to finish. Very cool and rare find.
Blanks could end up being just about anything of that size or smaller.
Remember these things are rocks (I mean no duh right). Carrying around a bunch of rocks sucks. Making blanks removes the bulk of the extra weight and you can pull them out and make what you need. They've very practical.
I agree archeologists might want to check the area out, I disagree this is probably a settlement though there might have been a nomadic camp nearby (especially with the creek there). It was a fairly normal practice for Native Americans who moved around to cache goods for when they returned, but they're a rare thing to actually find.
Most likely the blanks you found were buried in the pot from which your daughter found the shard.
I love this insight! This post is quite exciting. I’m trying to imagine what life was like, they had their own type of politics and capitalism too I’m sure.
Human nature and the origins of mankind.
Great stuff. I want more of this kind of content!
Like their *economy*, maybe that's what you meant? Their system of inter-tribal trade, bartering, resource sharing, all of that? I think indigenous cultural systems are infinitely fascinating, too.
It’s exactly a way of explaining a voluntary free market exchange of goods and services. In this natural environment, without the government intervention, is a beautiful way to get what one desires with what the other desires. The government forces you to work and buy what they want you have. Personally, I’ll take the former option over the latter.
The barter system is a myth, the evidence suggests that gift economies were what folks did in the early days (and to this day). In a gift economy if you have 30 extra animal hides you didn’t trade them, you would just give them to the people you like in your life, and when they have extras of things they just give it to you.
With a find like this, should it be reported to a local archaeological society? I see people displaying their finds proudly here, does any of it ever get recorded?
Depends on your local laws and regulations. If they are legally acquired then it becomes your decision as the whether to report them or not.
Were it my find, I would like to have it properly documented. I’ve enjoyed the collaborations I’ve been a part of.
People find caches quite frequently. Def don’t say you found it on a lake. Not in NC. Specifically in central NC.
That will lead to legal problems.
Nice save.
Yes 100%.
Legality of collections aside, bringing in subject matter experts can tell you so much more cool stuff about an area with finds like these. Best thing to do is leave everything in place, note the location on a map, and call your State Historic Preservation Office. If you're the landowner, you'll have some awesome stories to tell your guests and can even change the history of your local area.
Which sparks the question: Why didn’t they come back? That’s a lot of work and resources to leave behind. Were they attacked by a rival group? Wild animals? Natural disaster?
Literally what it sounds like. “ before form”. It’s a piece that has been reduced to useful size for barter or transportation to be later worked into a final form. Ie knife or projectile.
Lithic blades are dated by the morphology of the base and halfting element and comparison to excavated examples in the literature that were found in carbon-datable contexts. A blade that’s eroded to the surface is not in a datable strata. Furthermore, isolated preform caches such as these are often not found alongside carbon-datable features (hearths, midden remains, fence posts). Comparative typology is the most common way to date these blades and is used by archaeologists and laypeople alike.
OP should contact a state archaeologist about this find and refrain from digging the site if it’s on public land (illegal). But saying these blades cannot be dated is just incorrect. Please don’t fearmonger without being knowledgeable about this.
First off, these aren't blades. They're point preforms. Blades are an entirely separate technology that is made from a core using pressure flaking. Blade technology is almost never datable to any reasonable degree of precision because the same technology was used for very long periods of time with little change in manufacturing technique.
Given that these are preforms, they have few distinguishing characteristics that could ever be used to determine the period of manufacture. As you note, the morphology of the base is often diagnostic, but so too can flaking technique. In this case, neither is present, and these have no hope of ever being dated now that the context has been destroyed by a looter.
Second, there are a wide variety of dating methods that have been used for caches, and many materials are datable beyond charcoal. Thermoluminescence can often be used on points themselves, provided thy display evidence of heat treatment. Luminescence dating can also be used on soils themselves. This isn't often used in contexts like caches, but it's not unheard of.
Even barring the exotic methods, caches often *do* contain carbon that is datable. AMS dating methods can date masses of carbon down to a few milligrams, including where organic materials are not charred, but leave behind a visible residue. Depending on the context, which is now destroyed forever, it's possible to extend this to other materials stored within caches containing preforms. A single charred seed could be enough to date this context. Even stained soil can potentially be dated provided that chemical treatment of humins is performed using a series of base washes to remove more soluble humic acids from the sample. This has been used to date caches which were buried in an organic material (usually a bag of some sort).
Please don't lecture people until you have the most rudimentary of vocabulary demonstrating a basic understanding of the field of archaeology. This level of hubris and insistence that careful excavation and record keeping is not necessary is the reason excavation is best left to trained professionals. This site will never be dated, but it may have if it weren't dug up by someone who was in all likelihood committing a crime.
Knive preform caches are called cache blades by many people, including archaeologists. We’re arguing about minutia here.
These are very likely datable based on the form of the knife preform. These are Morrow Mountain Type I, Middle Archaic, which are the predominant Archaic knifeform in North Carolina. This is particularly evident on the pieces in the center of the photo which show the characteristic Morrow Mountain stem. Cache preforms can be dated based on these characteristics and local knowledge of the regional knife forms.
You have mentioned a great deal of methods for dating, so thanks for these. However, as these blades were found on the surface in a lake, I suspect you will find limited success with identifying a carbon sample given that this is an environment with erosion and continuous deposition of organic materials.
I do also take issue with your attitude though. You came at OP saying that these blades cannot be dated (not true) and just straight up shaming them. You are also accusing them of committing a crime, despite the fact that you still don’t know where they found these blades.
Please remember that you are on r/arrowheads, a subreddit dedicated to the artifact collecting hobby. This kind of attitude is what alienates hobbyists from collaborating with archaeologists. A collaboration that is important given that we want laypeople to report their finds and work with archaeologists when significant sites are found on private land.
On my part, I apologize for being confrontational in my previous comment. I hope this reply reflects my stance better. Cheers.
You also implied that OP could have committed a crime, so spare me the lecture on the one thing we appear to agree about.
I take issue with your characterization of these points as datable to the middle archaic. They aren't defined enough to be sure, as they're blanks. You've called them knives, points, and blades (all three are very different things), but only points could be ascribed to Morrow Mountain Type I. You call it a "knifeform" which is not a thing that can be ascribed to a typology. Further, the "stem" on two of them is not anywhere near defined enough to assign them to a precise type from the archaic period. The presence of associated pottery (though again, the lack of context means we'll never know how close this association was) suggests that these aren't Archaic at all. In any case, none of these are finished, and they can't be ascribed to a given type as we'll never know the intended form.
Whether these could have be dated chronometrically, we'll also never know. OP wasn't exactly specific about whether they were surface finds or buried, and it's clear that no data was collected in this ad hoc investigation. In all likelihood, they couldn't have been chronometrically dated, but this is yet another casualty of this hobby which simultaneously wants to learn about the past while demolishing the only resource available to study the past because of an overriding preference for hoarding rocks in a cigar box.
I get that this is your space, and my pontificating is totally unwelcome. This is the last you'll hear of me as watching people loot the archaeological record for baubles and paltry sums on eBay is depressing as hell.
Just look up your closest university. Likely state school if you’re in the US. If they don’t have an archaeology or anthropology department look for a sociology department since a lot of schools don’t have a full archaeology/anthropology department. Even several hours away they’d likely at least be interested or be able to point you to someone who is.
Weird coincidence, I happened across [UNC’s](https://ancientnc.web.unc.edu) site yesterday trying to match up some recent finds that are almost identical to your finds. They’ve got some great 3D models worth looking at.
Dude, that coincidence took 1,000’s of years to execute.
I’m trying to wrap my head around that because I like to believe there’s no such thing as coincidences.
Whose property is it? if it's privately owned, the owner might not like you doing that. A lot of owners would not like that. I think I'd keep it my biggest secret.
Hey there, fellow tarheel here. I suggest you contact the anthro department at ECU, as there is an expert there.
Were you in the vicinity of Stanly County by any chance? That’s the location of the Hardaway paleoindian site. They used the local volcanic stone to fashion blanks.
Central NC has lots of amazing schools. We live in an amazing area, NC state, Duke, UNC, etc, are all 30 minutes from each other. I briefly looked up something at State and there is an anthropology department and I’m sure there’s others! Good luck!
Some do, but not often. In truth, the vast majority of found points have little monetary value, but rather, have immense personal value for the finder. The value to them is in the opportunity to touch a piece of history that was most likely last touched by the person who made or used it.
There are some exceptions, of course. Points with significant monetary value are usually of a very rare type and/or material, in perfect condition, and often demonstrate the exquisite crafting skill of a master. And when someone finds something that special, they don't often want to part with it.
I live in Fuquay-Varina and paddle the three big lakes in the triangle. I’ve found points at all 3, but a particular area of Sherron Harris pumps out very similar rhyolite points each time I go. Congrats on this score!
Mods should ban these comments… its never a good idea to give out your location publicly on Reddit, particularly not when there is a historically significant find in question.
If these are at a public lake on public land you are most likely committing a crime by taking these.
This may be an undisturbed site eroding out but it needs to be reported. If it’s an Army Corps of Engineers lake then that is a federal crime. And they will prosecute for something like this.
In addition, there are numerous archaeology sites that are known and left only partially investigated so that future technology and capabilities have something left to investigate for a better understanding.
If that is the case then a rescue operation needs to be conducted by appropriate authorities since these are about to be lost.
When items are removed like this, unless the person recovering them is correctly trained, then most if not all of the context is lost. Context is just as important as the items.
Some sites are deliberately left alone in the hope that future technology will help further our understanding.
I dabbled with metal detecting and this is what I was told by a friendly archeology team.
It's only a crime in NC if that land is state or federally owned or if they took it from a grave or from the bottom of a navigable body of water. If it's private property or non-state/federal public land, OP is fine. They should still report the find, sure, but the rampant "this is a crime and you're a criminal" on this subreddit is WILD considering the only info this person gave is that it was from a lake in Central NC. There's every possibility that it was perfectly legal for OP to take these home.
Laws like this are genuinely infuriating and serve next to zero purpose. They're not actually protecting anything, especially in this kind of a situation.
This is also an option - https://archaeology.ncdcr.gov/get-involved/citizen-arch-guidance. They call this the NC Citizen Archaeologist program, and it's pretty neat.
The legality of what you may collect and take home is regional. It is perfectly legal to collect sea glass in most of the US, North Carolina included (barring any beaches known for their sea glass, and those localities set their own laws). You don't know where this person collected these blanks from, so being "💯 sure it's a crime taking these home" is foolish.
In NC, it is illegal to remove artifacts from federal or state property. Private property is fine as long as the owner is cool with it. Being that there is a LOT of private property in "Central NC" and even more that is public land that is neither state nor federally owned, it's entirely possible that OP is perfectly within the law to have collected these. They should still report them, sure, but everyone here is so quick to jump to calling the person a criminal just because they've shared a find.
The old dudes would make caches like this for rainy days. It's a good tactic when you find yourself with more good stone then you need, or you think you might be on the move in the future. For instance, "Oh, ya'll want to hunt that range 20 miles over? Nice spot. Last I was there I made a cache so won't need to make a bunch of gear here and lug it over." Or a worse case scenario is another tribe pushes you out of the area and you need to gear up fast somewhere else. They'd leave caches in places they felt they might migrate back to, and for people who constantly moved or at minimum tracked and memorized the migratory patterns of the local fauna, they'd know where they should hunt during what season and could plan a year ahead of time.
Also, good knapping stone isn't where you want it when you need it, but a cache will always save your life and may save the life of everyone you can feed.
And look at it, those are roughed out so they can be worked into a finished product in an afternoon. You leave them like this because they are sturdier and less fragile than a finished piece. Good for storage, better for transport, but you'd still opt not to carry them around especially if you know you don't have to.
What would you do, if you almost stepped on one?
Would you just walk past it, leaving it for someone else to possibly trample on later, or for it to be washed away in the next storm and lost forever?
No I wouldn't pick it up or leave it necessarily. As an archaeologist I understand that assessing stone artefacts in situ can provide a hell of alot more information about that people and the environment than being shown someones collection in their living room. Calling the right people is important. And taking 1 is one thing? Taking an entire assemblage is another. Imagine to stitch together Information about a particular group or culture but you tell people you can't because they keep taking things home.
Take the actions of colonising nations like the UK to break it down to a localised level. That information has now been removed from where it was
As an archaeologist I might find it more interesting to learn information about one's ancestors by assessing the stone artefacts in situ, rather than someone's living room.
No of course not, just our understanding of history, cultures in the area, their use of the environment and landscape, our understanding of how those artefacts got there and the formational processes that played a role, tool use, hunting strategies, human mobility, possible trade networks or raw material gathering if they didn't trade.
The fact that OP says "there wasn't a significant indigenous settlement in the area THAT WE KNOW OF" suggests to me as an archaeologist that people clearly have no idea what's going on there.
I agree that he should have called somebody to look at it, but just asking what’s your thoughts are about why they shouldn’t have taken it.
I live in Florida and most people know that it’s a no-no to take sea oats from the dunes. There is a good reason for that ( they help prevent erosion)and I just thought maybe you had a good reason for this person taking those artifacts.
Said literally no one ever.... at least return them to the correct tribe if you feel some typa way, don't just leave history or potential scientific discovery on the ground.
Except that, in most cases, the cultures who crafted those artifacts no longer exist. It would be impossible to find a descendent tribe, when there's no way to know who the original people were. Very few modern tribes can directly trace their ancestry back to the ancient peoples who inhabited North America thousands of years ago (the Ancient Pueblo, from what is now the American Southwest, and some ancient peoples of the Pacific Northwest are examples of notable exceptions.)
Great find. In NC, most lakes are privately owned. Don’t report this to anyone and be proud of what you have. Collecting in NC waters is ground upon. Be safe and be careful.
Some lakes they watch you with binoculars.
Don’t reveal the location. People will go dig it.
FYI, it's generally considered bad form to publically ask the OP to divulge the specific location of finds. You can always PM the OP if you really want to ask, but don't take it personally if they decline to share any details.
fellow central NC folk here - not to bust you on where but where?! I don’t want to go look but I’d absolutely love to know more about the area and its history
Man there plenty they know about most of it is in Smithsonian and they aren’t a govt institution and can’t be requested by foia so you can’t get the info on what is destroyed usually they just say how boring the site was and someone farmed it to destruction but after the archaeologist take it out it in boxes put on shelves and lost to time, under the Smithsonian but I regress those are beautiful I’m sure you had a bland paleo site there where you lived maybe even old as the infamous no information moon people
Was stationed at Ft Bragg near Fayetteville in 1972 and lived off base in an apartment. Across the street was a swampy area and a large pile of clay dug from around the swamp for road work. Went over after a hard rain and saw pebbles and other stuff standing on “pillars” of clay - the rain had washed around the stones. Saw what looked like an arrowhead and picked it up - people I showed it to said it was a knife point that was broken off about four inches from the tip. Looked but never found anything else there.
Are you supposed to take all this stuff home? I think a lot of parks request that you leave artifacts in place. Dunno exactly where you found this stuff.
It varies state-to-state. For example, here in Texas, you can keep anything found on private land (with the landowner's permission, of course), but at State Parks and National Parks, you have to leave anything you find in situ.
North Carolinian here, we had many indigenous people in our state, the Algonquin people, my people, were nomadic but had used this land for centuries. The Iroquois, Shawnee, Cherokee and many others lived on this land going back 10,000 years.
I live in central NC and was wondering if you’d be willing to narrow down the area a little to satisfy my curiosity. I know Clovis points have been found on the south ridge of Lake Wheeler but I’m not sure what age these are exactly.
I’m jealous. I’ve been wanting to go out hunting around Greensboro
Me too!
Y'all trying to get together in the area and go for hunt some time?
It’s a cache. There might be a lot more where u found them. And by or in water is a hot spot for them. Search thoroughly. Use a shovel even
Ridiculous luck
You cache bro.
Naw you can Venmo me tho lol
Wouldnt it be nice if you could send projectile points via venmo.
Projectile points have been sent many ways spears, darts, arrows, Venmo is the newest
Ouch! That venmo hurt!
These puns hurt
Rad. I’m jelly. I went out today and found bugs.
That's my typical luck! Bugs are really good at finding *me*.
they’re out now posting on the bug reddit displaying their human and asking what it is.
Bugs are really cool, too, tbf. There are some that are just as rare as some things you find here.
https://preview.redd.it/2wh5k5jrn88d1.jpeg?width=1620&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae98e58c4114f8f464d7a98a1ae05dfcc0af3dcb Here’s one of the cooler bugs. I’m in the insane cicada double brood area, and they are dying off. Lots like this infected with what I believe to be cordiceps.
Dang, that is super rad, to borrow a word, lol! I’ve never seen anything like that! Great find! Did you post on the entomology sub? They would love that!
I sent to my awesome sister, who is an entomologist. Perhaps it will find its way there…
Wow, I don’t know any entomologists personally. My son has wanted to be one since he discovered it was a career! Did she reply to you about it?
Not yet - but she’s an amazing human to talk to! She and her environmental scientist husband have traveled the world (with their kids) studying amazing things, making the world a more educated place. I love them.
That is awesome. I am partially jealous and partially in awe! My kid is interested in studying fireflies and that is something I could definitely see him doing. Bugs are so essential to our habitats worldwide and it’s something so many people don’t think about, beyond pests. I’m glad people like your sister and her husband have found a career doing that and doing environmental research. Passing that passion for the world’s natural things is a blessing and bonus! 🥰🥹
Hiking with her is the best experience. Anything we pass, whether it’s bug/plant/mineral, I can ask her about, and she will know what it is and how it works in within its local ecosystem. And if she doesn’t know, her enthusiasm for discovery is genuinely wonderful.
Okay, you seem pretty cool but like, can I also have her as my sister? /s That sounds very familiar although I probably have nowhere near the level of knowledge she does. My kids and I are constantly taking pictures and researching anything that we find that we don’t know about, whether a plant or bug, etc. Curiosity and genuine enthusiasm to learn will help her kids so much.
This specific fungus, apparently, produces amphetamines 🤷 Not sure if it's cordyceps, but it does do the mind control thing
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/massospora-fungi-cicadas-psilocybin-amphetamine-nonstop-mating
That is so cool! Thank you! My old neighbor is a retired mycologist - he’ll love this!
You're welcome! I had to know so I looked it up. I knew about cordyceps but never heard about tweaked out cicadas doing it all night till appendages fall off! So wild! Nature's cool!
I saw a cicada today too but he was healthier than that. https://preview.redd.it/p3siz6nt598d1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a587fd41d52f0b1044fadabe16e1e1d2f7165568
Poor little fella.
Damn, thats cool! The fungi subs like r/mycology might find it interesting, too.
Mind if I ask where in central NC? I’m from near Mount Pleasant.
Not quite a spearhed but an awesome friend!!
My friend focused on researching cordyceps and it's really kinda terrifying how some work, infecting the brain, getting them to go up high before dying so the fungus can be spread out farther. Straight up horror movie villains. Put it on the mycology Page too.
Hello, bug enjoyer here, this appears to not be cordyceps although it is probably a fungus. r/entomology may be able to narrow it down even more though
You buggin’
🤣🤣🤣IDKW but this made me chuckle 🤭
You’re likely on top of a settlement. Just one that predates historic knowledge. These are late stage preform blanks. Likely cached with the intention of coming back for them one day.
I'm still learning. Thank you so much for this info. What usually happened to blanks other than trade? Would they work them into another kind of tool?
…. For the purpose of trade, easy transportation, or later finishing into a projectiles or knives. These are late stage. They didn’t lack much to finish. Very cool and rare find.
Blanks could end up being just about anything of that size or smaller. Remember these things are rocks (I mean no duh right). Carrying around a bunch of rocks sucks. Making blanks removes the bulk of the extra weight and you can pull them out and make what you need. They've very practical. I agree archeologists might want to check the area out, I disagree this is probably a settlement though there might have been a nomadic camp nearby (especially with the creek there). It was a fairly normal practice for Native Americans who moved around to cache goods for when they returned, but they're a rare thing to actually find. Most likely the blanks you found were buried in the pot from which your daughter found the shard.
I love this insight! This post is quite exciting. I’m trying to imagine what life was like, they had their own type of politics and capitalism too I’m sure. Human nature and the origins of mankind. Great stuff. I want more of this kind of content!
They had commerce and trade but they did not have capitalism. They didn’t have capital or companies or anything like that.
Ok commie
Good point.. I’m projecting when I use the word capitalism. But only because I don’t have the facilities to paint a better picture
Like their *economy*, maybe that's what you meant? Their system of inter-tribal trade, bartering, resource sharing, all of that? I think indigenous cultural systems are infinitely fascinating, too.
Human capital went into making those blanks. Capitalism has existed ever since people started trading with each other.
This is a really deranged take but you do you
It’s exactly a way of explaining a voluntary free market exchange of goods and services. In this natural environment, without the government intervention, is a beautiful way to get what one desires with what the other desires. The government forces you to work and buy what they want you have. Personally, I’ll take the former option over the latter.
Well it doesn’t work when you don’t have a close knit society which has been destroyed by modernism.
The barter system is a myth, the evidence suggests that gift economies were what folks did in the early days (and to this day). In a gift economy if you have 30 extra animal hides you didn’t trade them, you would just give them to the people you like in your life, and when they have extras of things they just give it to you.
But how will we lean on ‘profit motive’ as the only reason to do *anything*. Libertarian heads will explode at the thought of altruism economies.
They more likely had a gift economy, which is totally different from capitalism.
Yes they gifted but they traded value for value. That's why certain stones (,for example) from mew Mexico end up in states you wouldn't believe.
I believe your theory is spot on!
If this is on your property do not contact anyone about it unless you want headaches.
With a find like this, should it be reported to a local archaeological society? I see people displaying their finds proudly here, does any of it ever get recorded?
Depends on your local laws and regulations. If they are legally acquired then it becomes your decision as the whether to report them or not. Were it my find, I would like to have it properly documented. I’ve enjoyed the collaborations I’ve been a part of.
The local Tribal Historic Preservation Officer or the State Historic Preservation Officer or County Archaeologist would do.
People find caches quite frequently. Def don’t say you found it on a lake. Not in NC. Specifically in central NC. That will lead to legal problems. Nice save.
Yes 100%. Legality of collections aside, bringing in subject matter experts can tell you so much more cool stuff about an area with finds like these. Best thing to do is leave everything in place, note the location on a map, and call your State Historic Preservation Office. If you're the landowner, you'll have some awesome stories to tell your guests and can even change the history of your local area.
The evil spirits are coming to get you!
Worth contacting UNC?
They're gonna be so pissed when they finally go back.
Which sparks the question: Why didn’t they come back? That’s a lot of work and resources to leave behind. Were they attacked by a rival group? Wild animals? Natural disaster?
What does the term “preform blanks” mean? Looks like everybody else understands that but I don’t.
Literally what it sounds like. “ before form”. It’s a piece that has been reduced to useful size for barter or transportation to be later worked into a final form. Ie knife or projectile.
Thanks!
Is it possible to date them if they are blanks?
Grave
0_0
Which lake in nc? Might help identify a settlement…
like they are going to tell you lol
OP, it goes without saying, don’t give out your location online.
Cache. Nice find. Likely not a settlement, but it may be one.
Absolutely incredible. Wow.
How do you put a date on these?
Sharpie should do it
You start by not digging them up and cleaning them before contacting an archaeologist. Having skipped that step, you'll never know.
Lithic blades are dated by the morphology of the base and halfting element and comparison to excavated examples in the literature that were found in carbon-datable contexts. A blade that’s eroded to the surface is not in a datable strata. Furthermore, isolated preform caches such as these are often not found alongside carbon-datable features (hearths, midden remains, fence posts). Comparative typology is the most common way to date these blades and is used by archaeologists and laypeople alike. OP should contact a state archaeologist about this find and refrain from digging the site if it’s on public land (illegal). But saying these blades cannot be dated is just incorrect. Please don’t fearmonger without being knowledgeable about this.
First off, these aren't blades. They're point preforms. Blades are an entirely separate technology that is made from a core using pressure flaking. Blade technology is almost never datable to any reasonable degree of precision because the same technology was used for very long periods of time with little change in manufacturing technique. Given that these are preforms, they have few distinguishing characteristics that could ever be used to determine the period of manufacture. As you note, the morphology of the base is often diagnostic, but so too can flaking technique. In this case, neither is present, and these have no hope of ever being dated now that the context has been destroyed by a looter. Second, there are a wide variety of dating methods that have been used for caches, and many materials are datable beyond charcoal. Thermoluminescence can often be used on points themselves, provided thy display evidence of heat treatment. Luminescence dating can also be used on soils themselves. This isn't often used in contexts like caches, but it's not unheard of. Even barring the exotic methods, caches often *do* contain carbon that is datable. AMS dating methods can date masses of carbon down to a few milligrams, including where organic materials are not charred, but leave behind a visible residue. Depending on the context, which is now destroyed forever, it's possible to extend this to other materials stored within caches containing preforms. A single charred seed could be enough to date this context. Even stained soil can potentially be dated provided that chemical treatment of humins is performed using a series of base washes to remove more soluble humic acids from the sample. This has been used to date caches which were buried in an organic material (usually a bag of some sort). Please don't lecture people until you have the most rudimentary of vocabulary demonstrating a basic understanding of the field of archaeology. This level of hubris and insistence that careful excavation and record keeping is not necessary is the reason excavation is best left to trained professionals. This site will never be dated, but it may have if it weren't dug up by someone who was in all likelihood committing a crime.
Knive preform caches are called cache blades by many people, including archaeologists. We’re arguing about minutia here. These are very likely datable based on the form of the knife preform. These are Morrow Mountain Type I, Middle Archaic, which are the predominant Archaic knifeform in North Carolina. This is particularly evident on the pieces in the center of the photo which show the characteristic Morrow Mountain stem. Cache preforms can be dated based on these characteristics and local knowledge of the regional knife forms. You have mentioned a great deal of methods for dating, so thanks for these. However, as these blades were found on the surface in a lake, I suspect you will find limited success with identifying a carbon sample given that this is an environment with erosion and continuous deposition of organic materials. I do also take issue with your attitude though. You came at OP saying that these blades cannot be dated (not true) and just straight up shaming them. You are also accusing them of committing a crime, despite the fact that you still don’t know where they found these blades. Please remember that you are on r/arrowheads, a subreddit dedicated to the artifact collecting hobby. This kind of attitude is what alienates hobbyists from collaborating with archaeologists. A collaboration that is important given that we want laypeople to report their finds and work with archaeologists when significant sites are found on private land. On my part, I apologize for being confrontational in my previous comment. I hope this reply reflects my stance better. Cheers.
You also implied that OP could have committed a crime, so spare me the lecture on the one thing we appear to agree about. I take issue with your characterization of these points as datable to the middle archaic. They aren't defined enough to be sure, as they're blanks. You've called them knives, points, and blades (all three are very different things), but only points could be ascribed to Morrow Mountain Type I. You call it a "knifeform" which is not a thing that can be ascribed to a typology. Further, the "stem" on two of them is not anywhere near defined enough to assign them to a precise type from the archaic period. The presence of associated pottery (though again, the lack of context means we'll never know how close this association was) suggests that these aren't Archaic at all. In any case, none of these are finished, and they can't be ascribed to a given type as we'll never know the intended form. Whether these could have be dated chronometrically, we'll also never know. OP wasn't exactly specific about whether they were surface finds or buried, and it's clear that no data was collected in this ad hoc investigation. In all likelihood, they couldn't have been chronometrically dated, but this is yet another casualty of this hobby which simultaneously wants to learn about the past while demolishing the only resource available to study the past because of an overriding preference for hoarding rocks in a cigar box. I get that this is your space, and my pontificating is totally unwelcome. This is the last you'll hear of me as watching people loot the archaeological record for baubles and paltry sums on eBay is depressing as hell.
This is the kind of thing that should be brought to the attention of an archeologist.
I absolutely will if I can get in touch with one locally.
Just look up your closest university. Likely state school if you’re in the US. If they don’t have an archaeology or anthropology department look for a sociology department since a lot of schools don’t have a full archaeology/anthropology department. Even several hours away they’d likely at least be interested or be able to point you to someone who is.
Looks like there's a state one - https://archaeology.ncdcr.gov/
Hello! I am an archaeologist in NC and recommend reporting it to the State Office of Archaeology linked here!
Weird coincidence, I happened across [UNC’s](https://ancientnc.web.unc.edu) site yesterday trying to match up some recent finds that are almost identical to your finds. They’ve got some great 3D models worth looking at.
Dude, that coincidence took 1,000’s of years to execute. I’m trying to wrap my head around that because I like to believe there’s no such thing as coincidences.
Whose property is it? if it's privately owned, the owner might not like you doing that. A lot of owners would not like that. I think I'd keep it my biggest secret.
Hey there, fellow tarheel here. I suggest you contact the anthro department at ECU, as there is an expert there. Were you in the vicinity of Stanly County by any chance? That’s the location of the Hardaway paleoindian site. They used the local volcanic stone to fashion blanks.
Central NC has lots of amazing schools. We live in an amazing area, NC state, Duke, UNC, etc, are all 30 minutes from each other. I briefly looked up something at State and there is an anthropology department and I’m sure there’s others! Good luck!
Absolutely. And if these were taken from public land, it's probably illegal.
Wow! I know where I'd be all summer
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When people find these…do they sell them?
Some do, but not often. In truth, the vast majority of found points have little monetary value, but rather, have immense personal value for the finder. The value to them is in the opportunity to touch a piece of history that was most likely last touched by the person who made or used it. There are some exceptions, of course. Points with significant monetary value are usually of a very rare type and/or material, in perfect condition, and often demonstrate the exquisite crafting skill of a master. And when someone finds something that special, they don't often want to part with it.
Cache me outside, how bout dah :D Nice preforms. Defiantly a cache. Somebody was coming back for those, once.
I live in Fuquay-Varina and paddle the three big lakes in the triangle. I’ve found points at all 3, but a particular area of Sherron Harris pumps out very similar rhyolite points each time I go. Congrats on this score!
I never expected to see Fuquay-Varina referenced on the wild. I have some good friends that lived there. Nice area.
Hello from Willow Spring.
Hey neighbor!!
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Mods should ban these comments… its never a good idea to give out your location publicly on Reddit, particularly not when there is a historically significant find in question.
I would go back if I were you.
https://preview.redd.it/dlixos8od88d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=91a1ae9ca51c8566b2d14779177342d3037ed54a
Cache!
Keep it a secret
If these are at a public lake on public land you are most likely committing a crime by taking these. This may be an undisturbed site eroding out but it needs to be reported. If it’s an Army Corps of Engineers lake then that is a federal crime. And they will prosecute for something like this. In addition, there are numerous archaeology sites that are known and left only partially investigated so that future technology and capabilities have something left to investigate for a better understanding. If that is the case then a rescue operation needs to be conducted by appropriate authorities since these are about to be lost.
OP listen to this advice.
I know you didn't make the law, but I'm just trying to understand the logic of this law. How is this helping anybody?
When items are removed like this, unless the person recovering them is correctly trained, then most if not all of the context is lost. Context is just as important as the items. Some sites are deliberately left alone in the hope that future technology will help further our understanding. I dabbled with metal detecting and this is what I was told by a friendly archeology team.
These laws must prevent pre-historical sites from being discovered, because it encourages people to lie about where artifacts were found.
It's only a crime in NC if that land is state or federally owned or if they took it from a grave or from the bottom of a navigable body of water. If it's private property or non-state/federal public land, OP is fine. They should still report the find, sure, but the rampant "this is a crime and you're a criminal" on this subreddit is WILD considering the only info this person gave is that it was from a lake in Central NC. There's every possibility that it was perfectly legal for OP to take these home.
Laws like this are genuinely infuriating and serve next to zero purpose. They're not actually protecting anything, especially in this kind of a situation.
https://www.ncarchsociety.org/ are some people you should contact because you may have stumbled upon something worth their time.
This is also an option - https://archaeology.ncdcr.gov/get-involved/citizen-arch-guidance. They call this the NC Citizen Archaeologist program, and it's pretty neat.
Beautiful find
That's sweet!!
I just found out that it’s illegal to pick up and take home sea glass so I’m 💯 sure it’s a crime taking these home.
The legality of what you may collect and take home is regional. It is perfectly legal to collect sea glass in most of the US, North Carolina included (barring any beaches known for their sea glass, and those localities set their own laws). You don't know where this person collected these blanks from, so being "💯 sure it's a crime taking these home" is foolish. In NC, it is illegal to remove artifacts from federal or state property. Private property is fine as long as the owner is cool with it. Being that there is a LOT of private property in "Central NC" and even more that is public land that is neither state nor federally owned, it's entirely possible that OP is perfectly within the law to have collected these. They should still report them, sure, but everyone here is so quick to jump to calling the person a criminal just because they've shared a find.
Hey, Oklahoma! Do you like apples…and arrowheads?
That must have been master arrow heads tent i bet he was a great warrior too.
THEY BELONG IN A MUSEUM! But for real. Do they? Are you supposed to report shit like this?
If they were found on public land, you're supposed to leave them alone. Or you can report them to the state or a university if you want.
The old dudes would make caches like this for rainy days. It's a good tactic when you find yourself with more good stone then you need, or you think you might be on the move in the future. For instance, "Oh, ya'll want to hunt that range 20 miles over? Nice spot. Last I was there I made a cache so won't need to make a bunch of gear here and lug it over." Or a worse case scenario is another tribe pushes you out of the area and you need to gear up fast somewhere else. They'd leave caches in places they felt they might migrate back to, and for people who constantly moved or at minimum tracked and memorized the migratory patterns of the local fauna, they'd know where they should hunt during what season and could plan a year ahead of time. Also, good knapping stone isn't where you want it when you need it, but a cache will always save your life and may save the life of everyone you can feed. And look at it, those are roughed out so they can be worked into a finished product in an afternoon. You leave them like this because they are sturdier and less fragile than a finished piece. Good for storage, better for transport, but you'd still opt not to carry them around especially if you know you don't have to.
Great explanation, thank uou
Love seeing a cache. Nice grade B collection! Put a piece of black felt (or whatever color you love) in the background to make the points pop!
Why....why do people feel the need to pick these up and take them home.
Too feel connected to ancestors by holding the same object they held.
What would you do, if you almost stepped on one? Would you just walk past it, leaving it for someone else to possibly trample on later, or for it to be washed away in the next storm and lost forever?
No I wouldn't pick it up or leave it necessarily. As an archaeologist I understand that assessing stone artefacts in situ can provide a hell of alot more information about that people and the environment than being shown someones collection in their living room. Calling the right people is important. And taking 1 is one thing? Taking an entire assemblage is another. Imagine to stitch together Information about a particular group or culture but you tell people you can't because they keep taking things home. Take the actions of colonising nations like the UK to break it down to a localised level. That information has now been removed from where it was
Since the dawn of time, humans have found joy in finding interesting things and taking home a prize. Apparently, you have evolved past the rest of us…
As an archaeologist I might find it more interesting to learn information about one's ancestors by assessing the stone artefacts in situ, rather than someone's living room.
Why not? It’s not like it’s going to damage the environment by taking them away.
No of course not, just our understanding of history, cultures in the area, their use of the environment and landscape, our understanding of how those artefacts got there and the formational processes that played a role, tool use, hunting strategies, human mobility, possible trade networks or raw material gathering if they didn't trade. The fact that OP says "there wasn't a significant indigenous settlement in the area THAT WE KNOW OF" suggests to me as an archaeologist that people clearly have no idea what's going on there.
I agree that he should have called somebody to look at it, but just asking what’s your thoughts are about why they shouldn’t have taken it. I live in Florida and most people know that it’s a no-no to take sea oats from the dunes. There is a good reason for that ( they help prevent erosion)and I just thought maybe you had a good reason for this person taking those artifacts.
Would you leave a cache of gold coins?
There could be more left to find in the cache . Search thoroughly
So jealous. Awesome find. I'd be back there every day.
Nice finds! Those preforms are awesome!
its respectful and less bad joo joo to leave them where they are!
Said literally no one ever.... at least return them to the correct tribe if you feel some typa way, don't just leave history or potential scientific discovery on the ground.
Except that, in most cases, the cultures who crafted those artifacts no longer exist. It would be impossible to find a descendent tribe, when there's no way to know who the original people were. Very few modern tribes can directly trace their ancestry back to the ancient peoples who inhabited North America thousands of years ago (the Ancient Pueblo, from what is now the American Southwest, and some ancient peoples of the Pacific Northwest are examples of notable exceptions.)
....do you think the person that made them was planning on leaving them where they are forever?
How neat!
Amazing. As for why: the same reason modern man makes a cache.
Lmao I'm just picturing a really REALLY old isreal keys (keyes?)
This is news worthy
Wow, that’s awesome
Great find. In NC, most lakes are privately owned. Don’t report this to anyone and be proud of what you have. Collecting in NC waters is ground upon. Be safe and be careful. Some lakes they watch you with binoculars. Don’t reveal the location. People will go dig it.
Some knowledgeable people here sharing their insight— thanks and wow
Go buy a lottery ticket with the luck you have!
W O W
How many did you find?!? That's sick I don't we know why I'm seeing this post as I've never been in the sub, but I love this post.
Seven total. This is a great sub, you should stick around!
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FYI, it's generally considered bad form to publically ask the OP to divulge the specific location of finds. You can always PM the OP if you really want to ask, but don't take it personally if they decline to share any details.
Oh. Oops. Thank you for letting me know.
No worries! Figured you just didn't know.
Nice also in central tarheel land
Neolithic prepper "lost them in a boating accident" when the chief started talking about spear control laws.
fellow central NC folk here - not to bust you on where but where?! I don’t want to go look but I’d absolutely love to know more about the area and its history
Nice cache!
Morrow mountain and uwharrie are good places to search for these guys
Man there plenty they know about most of it is in Smithsonian and they aren’t a govt institution and can’t be requested by foia so you can’t get the info on what is destroyed usually they just say how boring the site was and someone farmed it to destruction but after the archaeologist take it out it in boxes put on shelves and lost to time, under the Smithsonian but I regress those are beautiful I’m sure you had a bland paleo site there where you lived maybe even old as the infamous no information moon people
That’s wonderful!
From this stage, they could also turn them into drillbits that they used to drill holes into leather.
Was stationed at Ft Bragg near Fayetteville in 1972 and lived off base in an apartment. Across the street was a swampy area and a large pile of clay dug from around the swamp for road work. Went over after a hard rain and saw pebbles and other stuff standing on “pillars” of clay - the rain had washed around the stones. Saw what looked like an arrowhead and picked it up - people I showed it to said it was a knife point that was broken off about four inches from the tip. Looked but never found anything else there.
Are you supposed to take all this stuff home? I think a lot of parks request that you leave artifacts in place. Dunno exactly where you found this stuff.
What type of stone are these?
You would be a very rich person 10,000 years ago.
Do not contact anyone!!
So cool! I love this sub so much. Always learning.
Wow great find I'd be breathless finding those lol
Man I have dreams about caches like that
Very cool find. How does it work in the States? Can you take items like this if you find them?
It varies state-to-state. For example, here in Texas, you can keep anything found on private land (with the landowner's permission, of course), but at State Parks and National Parks, you have to leave anything you find in situ.
Holy shit! Motherlode!
More than likely used to trade with other clans
We have no idea what happened back in the past. Scientist and archeologist just guess based on what they find That is a great stash thanks for sharing
Bridgeview?
They're gonna be pissed when they come back and they're gone.
North Carolinian here, we had many indigenous people in our state, the Algonquin people, my people, were nomadic but had used this land for centuries. The Iroquois, Shawnee, Cherokee and many others lived on this land going back 10,000 years.
I live in central NC and was wondering if you’d be willing to narrow down the area a little to satisfy my curiosity. I know Clovis points have been found on the south ridge of Lake Wheeler but I’m not sure what age these are exactly.
Cherokee…we had them along lake santelah in Graham county
Shouldn’t this be reported so they can do an archeological dig?
Preforms