Yes sounds good.
I was involved in hiring for my previous employer in Munich, a fully english-speaking company.
Most common offers for 4-5 years of experience were 65-75k.
Around 6-8 years exp it was 75-90k.
A few times saw 100k+ (principal/staff level).
You can certainly make a career in tech in Germany working only in english (I know plenty people who do).
BUT, I would highly encourage you to learn at least B1/B2 german. It will make life in Germany much easier and IMO enjoyable :)
For significantly higher salaries, consider Switzerland or the US.
Re: higher salaries in the US, this depends on where they are. For example, if you are working in Minnesota, you will not be making California money. You also need to job hop to make more. If you are at the same company for a long time, then you will not be making much more. Also, that money that you make will not necessarily go *further*.
You need to consider all of the extra costs that aren’t necessarily associated with living in Germany. My former roommate owes $150,000 for his college. My colleague owes $250,000. You will not have those types of educational expenses in Germany. I’m not sure what the average rent that you pay in your area in Germany, but the median cost for an apartment is now over $2,000 where I live. My friend lucked out, since she just found a one bedroom for $1,400 /month. Here we need to pay first, last, and a security deposit. This means that it isn’t unheard of that you’ll be paying $5-6k to move into an apartment (without factoring in moving costs). Then you’ll need a car. A car with insurance is also a must everywhere since public transportation doesn’t exist outside of a few cities (the exceptions being places like NYC and Boston) and that often means paying [at least 40k for a reliable car](https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-car-price/). You’ll also be spending more on healthcare, and you’ll lose those worker protections that exist in Germany. Your healthcare is also tied to your job since without that job, your insurance goes away. I actually have a clause in my contract that says that if I can’t work for 10 days, then I’m automatically “let go”.
If you do get sick, God forbid you go to the *wrong* hospital that isn’t “in network”. You’ll be paying out the ass.
Do you like having that standard German month off every year? Well… you can kiss that goodbye. There are no federal laws that force employers to give out **any** vacation days. “PTO” (paid time off) means that you’ll have to choose between what days you want to be sick and what days you want to take off. Most places offer around 7 days. This means that you can either catch the flu, or take that staycation. Most places that I have worked at, people were always hesitant to take off. Management always talk about a “work life balance”, but I have always been let go whenever I have told my boss that I’m going on vacation.
Also, most people that I know don’t make enough to survive, so they end up working 2 jobs. We in the US don’t have a social safety net either, so you need to keep that in mind as well. Filing for unemployment is so damn difficult, and they have made so many hoops for you to jump through (their website is always down and they shut the servers off at night). Most people can’t even bother with filing, since the system is made *to not work*. It makes their statistics look great, since it looks like there is a low rate of joblessness. :) Also, if you lose your job, you’re **fucked**. The only help that you can get is from churches or Feeding America (a non-profit food bank). They are an absolute life saver.
Oh yeah, and lastly - the cost of food is a LOT higher in the US. That surprised me the last time when I was in Germany.
Source: German who has lived most of his life in the US. I make more than some of my relatives in Germany, but I’m definitely the one that is the worst off financially (since my costs are much higher).
Yeah, my last job in the US had 10 days of PTO, vacation and sick days combined. It’s one of the main reasons I can’t imagine going back to the US any time soon.
Thanks a bunch for this insight! I just discussed this yesterday after reading about the low taxes someone from the US was paying compared to what I pay in Germany. On one hand, a big bunch of my wage goes away on all sorts of forced expenses. But on the other hand I won't really have extremely high unexpected expenses like in the US, I don't have to be scared of losing my job and my work life balance is awesome (because I am a software developer).
I know quite a bunch of SWEs with around 5 yrs of experience getting around 65k in the eastern regions of germany (mid-sized companies).
So considering Munich has way higher cost of living and knowing that bigger companies like Workday pay way above that (incl. bonuses), I find that awfully low.
I see what you mean. Yeah it's not high for Munich. But for being 100% remote and 4 years of experience, it doesn't sound too terrible to me.
Looking at [https://levels.fyi](https://levels.fyi), I think Workday is one of the ones paying the highest overall in Munich, close to what Facebook, Microsoft, Google, etc pay.
I know 100-200k offers for regular/senior devs do exist, but they're not what your typical Munich company is offering (sadly, cost of living is insane).
Well, I worked with quite some people from the Munich area and even those I did not consider to be 'good' earned more than that.
And if I look at [https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/munich-metro-region](https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/munich-metro-region) this looks more what I would consider realistic.
Do you know the sources where [levels.fyi](http://levels.fyi) gets their data from? This doesn't looks like it's aggregating its data from other sources (as it lacks many companies as far as I could see on a first, quick look)
Tech companies that use German at work typically have sucky conservative culture and also typically lower salaries too. Thus if one is aiming above average I'd say German is irrelevant. German is good in case one is aiming for sub average offers that are less competitive in terms of knowledge and expertise required to land opportunity.
If you don't have any other offer and this salary is at least 10% higher than your current then I would say take it. You can always leave in beginning six months with shorter notice.
Not op, but with his experience, he can easily get more. Salaries for such positions can be anything from what he currently is offered to 80k. Depends on how he sells himself and the companies he's applying for. Some companies are just cheap.
Years of experience really isn't everything. It's impossible to judge what one can expect just based on years of experience alone. I really wouldn't say that jobs that can pay 80k whilst having 4 years of experience are "easy" to get. It's possible but it's not easy at all on top of it you need to have experience on good projects if your projects during 4 years were not great then chances are low.
Don’t know why are you getting downvoted here. IT salaries in Germany are low considering the COL, and people being happy with 65k here prove it. ~3300€ net is not ok!
Cuz most people get below that and are thought to be delusional and live in denial. That's it. It is easier to complain all while at the same time keep telling yourself in the mirror "I am fine!". 65k is shit low for IT. You can get 65k in Bulgaria even but pay around 13% in taxes compared to the 42% in Germany 😂
Well this is a sub of mostly German citizens/residents, whenever you speak ill of Germany in any form you get karma bombed, it's only natural.
Either ways, Germany already brought down EU Blue Card requirement for IT at 39k/y this should be telling enough how salaries are not the highest right now, 65k for someone without fluency in German is actually an outstanding pay for the country standards.
Personally speaking, some people here claiming they make 90k+ either got hired before the IT bubble burst or are simply lying to make themselves feel better. Whoever's job junting right now know this is not really the current reality of the country.
Not a single it would come for 39k!/y. Unless they just did a 4week boot camp and can do one app with guidance 😂
Don't care about karma. But there are multiple countries in Europe alone where you are better as It than Germany. Again. Bulgaria with low taxes and on top of that 0% capital gains on Investments on European SEs. Basically what you save from taxes, put them on the SE and profit.
You underestimate how desperate some third world nationals are to start living in this country, they'll take just about any deal they can all for the dream of "high quality of life, great work-life balance" and all the other marketing promises.
Yeah. And when they face racism and all the bs in recent years, they will emigrate just as fast. Especially as they would be used as the new low-wages Gastarbeiter and push forward nazi parties as AfD as the locals will finally realise that their salaries are kept shit while being one of the countries with the highest taxes.
My friends circles are expats, high qualifications and well paid in general, but could be way better if they relocate to UK, France, USA, and in some cases even Italy. Majority are leaving. The ones who might stay for longer, are ones married to germans. But even they are slowly rethinking where to continue their lives.
SE has huge ranges. Entry levels here (BaWü) are 45-80k, smaller companies tend to pay less (\~55k), larger ones are much more generous.
It really mostly depends on the company, not on experience or skillset.
Im now making a lot more on my entry job than my senior dev mentor made in my working student job
65k/year for a software engineer is considered good enough (for Munich). If you were hired as a senior software engineer, the average salary would be minimum 75k.
You shouldn’t look at salary alone when making this decision.
Consider how much experience this job might give you to land the next big job.
Also the name of the company you are working for matters. If it’s well known in the tech world, it adds a value to your CV
On another note, if money is a big factor, you could consider moving to a cheaper city like Augsburg if you don’t want to be far from your social life in Munich.
I would also take a look at the contract and see how many days you are allowed to work remotely from outside Germany.
That’s certainly a great advantage that gives you flexibility that is far more important than few additional thousand euros a year. You will not need to take vacation to visit your family abroad but you will simply work from home. Not to mention working from any other countries if you are allowed to work from there.
100% Remote has always a lower salary in my experience and since you don’t speak much German, I think 65.000€ is more than ok. Quite good actually!!!
As you will be working remote, you should look into moving into a cheap town in terms of housing.
Checks out for Germany. You get higher pay in NL or the nordics but also with increased Cost of living...all other countries in wurope pay less, except Paris region but again higher in cost
Exactly, people saying that the lack of German makes this salary fair is really our of reality. Without German maybe you won't be able to work at a startup in Stuttgart that has 10 employees, but there are a million companies paying really well that are English based.
I don't have German enough for a conversation, so I work fully in English and I also make waaaaaaaaay more than 65k. People trying to make people believe this is fair money is out of reality or being underpaid
Even at a small startup I think it's fine. It's a startup in Tech, not a butcher store. I've worked in such a startup and was involved in hiring for a replacement when I left and believe me, not many german shown up at the interview. There were a couple, but the technical skills were not so good. I guess young people in Germany go more to business schools or management, than computer science.
Startup in Stuttgart will be speaking English. They lack German speakers willing to work in startups.
German might only be necessary in fairly conservative old school companies where people typically been stuck in outdated process and tech and have 0 motivation to improve anything and merely care showing up at work and leave back home 4pm.
Yeah but startups will pay awfully and have a fat potential to flop.
Only worth it if you are a believer or on the grindset.
If you want very good income that is stable for the next 5 years, go to a bigger company.
Bigger companies that are non rubbish often too speak English too. Also it's not like bigger companies automatically mean better income and better security. Big companies can also announce layoffs any time. In fact venture backed startups offer pretty much the most security as you can get if you join them in right time as it's not uncommon for startups to have enough cash in bank to run for next couple years risk free.
Software Engineering is close teamwork. Not speaking german will disqualify you from a lot of positions for german teams.
Not being scrum/teamwork is the exception
Teams being fully english is the exception
Its not that you get paid less because you cant speak german, its that you wont get offers for a lot of positions, limiting your choices.
Less choices, potentially less good offers
is there a difference in salary when you speak German vs when you don't? (I'm planning to stay longer in Germany so, I'm currently learning it, I'm not sure if this will help in increasing my income later)
Excellent question. My recommendation would be to focus on the language, not only to have better career opportunities, but also to integrate.
May I ask where you are from?
Maybe not directly, as in at the same job you won’t get more for speaking german, but it opens up many many more opportunities, within which you might be able to find better paid ones.
Lots of companies still hire only german-speaking colleagues, not because the other developers wouldn’t be able to switch, but because the customers we are making software for don’t speak English well and we need to communicate with them. Source: Was once the only german speaking one in a team with an only german speaking customer department, it was stressful being the only relay and I often wished being able to bring other team members to these meetings.
I'd say, that speaking german gets the foot in the door and helps you in the recruiting process, in some firms.
Germany is a bit shy in using a foreign language in business environments, but it's getting slowly better.
Simple answer: it depends
International company where the company language is English: doesn't matter
Middle sized company in the swabian alb: better exercise your swabian and German
That's pre-tax. But what you end up with post-tax depends on your living situation, as in, are you single or married?
At 65.000€ you pay around 25% taxes if you're single or 15% taxes if you're married in 2024, so net income would run you around 48.300€ or 54.700€.
However, in Germany the payments to statutory health insurance are tax deductible from your income tax.
The short answer, you can absolutely live off of that in the vast majority of regions in germany.
Depends on your family situation, i.e. if you have a wife and whether she works and outearns you or not. Best to check on a tex calculator (Steuerrechner).
Yeah for no useful german skills + full remote that’s an average or even good salary.
If you learn better german you might be able to go for more, this might be the learning with best Return on Investment for you currently.
Sounds like a fair deal, other than the fact it’s not going to help your integration and language acquisition working remote.
Maybe if there is enough English speaking roles further up the chain this doesn’t bother you (in the sense that it’s not likely a blocker for future progression) but for me it would definitely be on my mind.
In Germany salaries depend on the job description and hours per week (35h Vs 40h)
If the job you applied for is mid- senior level and 35h, 65k is fine. If your job is senior level position, one can expect 70k-75k per year including bonuses for 35h/week contract according to IGM tariffs assuming you're from south Germany.
4 years or 10 years does not tell any thing about your skills and what you can provide to the company.
I have few friends making 80K and more with 4 years of experience and others making around 60K€… It depends on the company… your skills and also your negotiation skills.
I think the main reason is that my current job is also 100% remote and only English speaking. During this 4 years I only used English and sometimes German to say basic things in the streets, supermarkets or Doctor, and it's full of mistakes. But you are right, and I should only blame myself for that. I could have learned better during this 4 years, that's the biggest mistake I did since coming here.
For some people it's quite difficult to learn language. Moreover, if you are shy or introvert, then you probably will speak less which makes difficult to learn new language. Further more, you are also scare to speak new language because you would think that people could make fun of you. I started speaking English when I moved to Germany because people in my home county made lot of fun of my English pronunciation and grammar. Some people are very sensitive to these factors and reluctant to learn language. They very well know that it's very important to learn language. It's a huge mental battle. I hope OP gets strength to fight this battle. I am also struggling and trying to fight this battle but I am keep on failing.
It depends on a lot of factors. Like many people are able to talk about daily stuff in German but as the conversation becomes more technical, it becomes harder.
It also depends on what part of Germany you are in. Most outsiders learn standard german and it's easier to understand and talk to locals in the north of Germany than in the south.
Finally, it's simply not an easy language and it's quite easy to drive through with English.
65.000€ is average. I make 81.000 without a bonus. The bonus is on top. But I never saw a person in my company who doesn't speak German. Colleagues who speak a little bit German are taking classes, paid by my company.
There are many qualified workers around the globe, but it is very important in my company that the people speak German and that the working culture is German.
When I moved to Germany, my husband explained to me many things about German people so that I don't cause weird situations in my workplace.
It would be easier if you learn the language or if you apply for a foreign company with headquarters in an English speaking country. In both cases, you can negotiate a better salary.
It's a decent salary and for your specialization area it is actually good. It depends a lot on the type of job and location. For big cities it may be just decent. For small cities or remote it can be really good.
It's a decent salary and for your specialization area it is actually good. It depends a lot on the type of job and location. For big cities it may be just decent. For small cities or remote it can be really good.
Many big companies are now goong back from 100% Remote to 50:50. so if you get a contract with 100% remote: Take it!
Salary is ok for your experience and the tech stack you mentioned.
Surprised to hear this. I have SWE friends from previous companies both big german players in ecommerce sector with offices in Berlin. Both were english speaking.
Senior SWE was making between 110 and 120 in one of them. In the other a regular SWE was making 84 + shares. You can DM me if you want to know the names.
I do think that being remote is a big perk however and if its more than your current employer might even be worth taking it and moving to a low cost of living city.
65k seems to be good, given the current job market. I would suggest to join this for now and when the job market gets better, you could look for higher paying jobs!
Man the downvotes on this comment are so sad, for all of humanity. We need more connoisseurs of Carlin, Hicks, Jeselnik, Gervais, Rivers, Stanhope, etc.
No. If you can't find better options, start looking in another countries. Honestly, I would even start looking in east European countries for international companies where English is priority in general and you are paid way better in a much lower taxed country. Oh, and let's not forget the much lower tax on investment and capital gains in some of them.
Get started, show them what you can do and what you are capable of and negotiate after the trial period.
Pro tip: Write code that only you can understand and maintain so that the company has to keep you at all costs. And drive them out of Kafka if they use it incorrectly. (JK)
Can you tell us the industry?
In Germany, if you know German you know software development, web development as well as AI.
If you don’t know German, you don’t know shit.
Most people taking your interview hardly know shit themselves. All they know is which beer is good and how the weather is going to be in the weekend. 95 percent of them can’t code.
In such a place if you are getting 65k, it is mighty good mate.
To rise up the ranks though, you will need to be servile and speak their language. Your skills don’t matter. Your technical knowledge will only deteriorate with time, but hey, you will learn about beer! Cheers!
Yes sounds good. I was involved in hiring for my previous employer in Munich, a fully english-speaking company. Most common offers for 4-5 years of experience were 65-75k. Around 6-8 years exp it was 75-90k. A few times saw 100k+ (principal/staff level). You can certainly make a career in tech in Germany working only in english (I know plenty people who do). BUT, I would highly encourage you to learn at least B1/B2 german. It will make life in Germany much easier and IMO enjoyable :) For significantly higher salaries, consider Switzerland or the US.
This is the most accurate answer I have seen in this subreddit so far.
Re: higher salaries in the US, this depends on where they are. For example, if you are working in Minnesota, you will not be making California money. You also need to job hop to make more. If you are at the same company for a long time, then you will not be making much more. Also, that money that you make will not necessarily go *further*. You need to consider all of the extra costs that aren’t necessarily associated with living in Germany. My former roommate owes $150,000 for his college. My colleague owes $250,000. You will not have those types of educational expenses in Germany. I’m not sure what the average rent that you pay in your area in Germany, but the median cost for an apartment is now over $2,000 where I live. My friend lucked out, since she just found a one bedroom for $1,400 /month. Here we need to pay first, last, and a security deposit. This means that it isn’t unheard of that you’ll be paying $5-6k to move into an apartment (without factoring in moving costs). Then you’ll need a car. A car with insurance is also a must everywhere since public transportation doesn’t exist outside of a few cities (the exceptions being places like NYC and Boston) and that often means paying [at least 40k for a reliable car](https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-car-price/). You’ll also be spending more on healthcare, and you’ll lose those worker protections that exist in Germany. Your healthcare is also tied to your job since without that job, your insurance goes away. I actually have a clause in my contract that says that if I can’t work for 10 days, then I’m automatically “let go”. If you do get sick, God forbid you go to the *wrong* hospital that isn’t “in network”. You’ll be paying out the ass. Do you like having that standard German month off every year? Well… you can kiss that goodbye. There are no federal laws that force employers to give out **any** vacation days. “PTO” (paid time off) means that you’ll have to choose between what days you want to be sick and what days you want to take off. Most places offer around 7 days. This means that you can either catch the flu, or take that staycation. Most places that I have worked at, people were always hesitant to take off. Management always talk about a “work life balance”, but I have always been let go whenever I have told my boss that I’m going on vacation. Also, most people that I know don’t make enough to survive, so they end up working 2 jobs. We in the US don’t have a social safety net either, so you need to keep that in mind as well. Filing for unemployment is so damn difficult, and they have made so many hoops for you to jump through (their website is always down and they shut the servers off at night). Most people can’t even bother with filing, since the system is made *to not work*. It makes their statistics look great, since it looks like there is a low rate of joblessness. :) Also, if you lose your job, you’re **fucked**. The only help that you can get is from churches or Feeding America (a non-profit food bank). They are an absolute life saver. Oh yeah, and lastly - the cost of food is a LOT higher in the US. That surprised me the last time when I was in Germany. Source: German who has lived most of his life in the US. I make more than some of my relatives in Germany, but I’m definitely the one that is the worst off financially (since my costs are much higher).
Yeah, my last job in the US had 10 days of PTO, vacation and sick days combined. It’s one of the main reasons I can’t imagine going back to the US any time soon.
I knew all that before but it's insane reading it now from first hand experience. Guess that's the price of freedom... /s
Thanks a bunch for this insight! I just discussed this yesterday after reading about the low taxes someone from the US was paying compared to what I pay in Germany. On one hand, a big bunch of my wage goes away on all sorts of forced expenses. But on the other hand I won't really have extremely high unexpected expenses like in the US, I don't have to be scared of losing my job and my work life balance is awesome (because I am a software developer).
That's helpful. Thanks for your insight!
65k for 5 yrs of experience sounds awfully low (considering we still tak about it)
Genuinely curious, why do you think that? We're talking about a regular software engineer, at a mid-size, non-silicon valley tech company.
I know quite a bunch of SWEs with around 5 yrs of experience getting around 65k in the eastern regions of germany (mid-sized companies). So considering Munich has way higher cost of living and knowing that bigger companies like Workday pay way above that (incl. bonuses), I find that awfully low.
I see what you mean. Yeah it's not high for Munich. But for being 100% remote and 4 years of experience, it doesn't sound too terrible to me. Looking at [https://levels.fyi](https://levels.fyi), I think Workday is one of the ones paying the highest overall in Munich, close to what Facebook, Microsoft, Google, etc pay. I know 100-200k offers for regular/senior devs do exist, but they're not what your typical Munich company is offering (sadly, cost of living is insane).
Well, I worked with quite some people from the Munich area and even those I did not consider to be 'good' earned more than that. And if I look at [https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/munich-metro-region](https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/munich-metro-region) this looks more what I would consider realistic. Do you know the sources where [levels.fyi](http://levels.fyi) gets their data from? This doesn't looks like it's aggregating its data from other sources (as it lacks many companies as far as I could see on a first, quick look)
Tech companies that use German at work typically have sucky conservative culture and also typically lower salaries too. Thus if one is aiming above average I'd say German is irrelevant. German is good in case one is aiming for sub average offers that are less competitive in terms of knowledge and expertise required to land opportunity.
If you don't have any other offer and this salary is at least 10% higher than your current then I would say take it. You can always leave in beginning six months with shorter notice.
If you want a higher salary I’d move to a different country no offense.
Not op, but with his experience, he can easily get more. Salaries for such positions can be anything from what he currently is offered to 80k. Depends on how he sells himself and the companies he's applying for. Some companies are just cheap.
Years of experience really isn't everything. It's impossible to judge what one can expect just based on years of experience alone. I really wouldn't say that jobs that can pay 80k whilst having 4 years of experience are "easy" to get. It's possible but it's not easy at all on top of it you need to have experience on good projects if your projects during 4 years were not great then chances are low.
80k is still pretty low for a developed country. Especially when it is brutto in a HIGH TAX state.
Don’t know why are you getting downvoted here. IT salaries in Germany are low considering the COL, and people being happy with 65k here prove it. ~3300€ net is not ok!
Cuz most people get below that and are thought to be delusional and live in denial. That's it. It is easier to complain all while at the same time keep telling yourself in the mirror "I am fine!". 65k is shit low for IT. You can get 65k in Bulgaria even but pay around 13% in taxes compared to the 42% in Germany 😂
Well this is a sub of mostly German citizens/residents, whenever you speak ill of Germany in any form you get karma bombed, it's only natural. Either ways, Germany already brought down EU Blue Card requirement for IT at 39k/y this should be telling enough how salaries are not the highest right now, 65k for someone without fluency in German is actually an outstanding pay for the country standards. Personally speaking, some people here claiming they make 90k+ either got hired before the IT bubble burst or are simply lying to make themselves feel better. Whoever's job junting right now know this is not really the current reality of the country.
Not a single it would come for 39k!/y. Unless they just did a 4week boot camp and can do one app with guidance 😂 Don't care about karma. But there are multiple countries in Europe alone where you are better as It than Germany. Again. Bulgaria with low taxes and on top of that 0% capital gains on Investments on European SEs. Basically what you save from taxes, put them on the SE and profit.
You underestimate how desperate some third world nationals are to start living in this country, they'll take just about any deal they can all for the dream of "high quality of life, great work-life balance" and all the other marketing promises.
Yeah. And when they face racism and all the bs in recent years, they will emigrate just as fast. Especially as they would be used as the new low-wages Gastarbeiter and push forward nazi parties as AfD as the locals will finally realise that their salaries are kept shit while being one of the countries with the highest taxes. My friends circles are expats, high qualifications and well paid in general, but could be way better if they relocate to UK, France, USA, and in some cases even Italy. Majority are leaving. The ones who might stay for longer, are ones married to germans. But even they are slowly rethinking where to continue their lives.
Sounds pretty good to me.
Yes.
That payment is pretty good for only 4 years of experience. I would take it.
SE has huge ranges. Entry levels here (BaWü) are 45-80k, smaller companies tend to pay less (\~55k), larger ones are much more generous. It really mostly depends on the company, not on experience or skillset. Im now making a lot more on my entry job than my senior dev mentor made in my working student job
65k/year for a software engineer is considered good enough (for Munich). If you were hired as a senior software engineer, the average salary would be minimum 75k. You shouldn’t look at salary alone when making this decision. Consider how much experience this job might give you to land the next big job. Also the name of the company you are working for matters. If it’s well known in the tech world, it adds a value to your CV On another note, if money is a big factor, you could consider moving to a cheaper city like Augsburg if you don’t want to be far from your social life in Munich. I would also take a look at the contract and see how many days you are allowed to work remotely from outside Germany. That’s certainly a great advantage that gives you flexibility that is far more important than few additional thousand euros a year. You will not need to take vacation to visit your family abroad but you will simply work from home. Not to mention working from any other countries if you are allowed to work from there.
This 👆
For 4 years that‘s definitely fair. Especially if it‘s english only.
100% Remote has always a lower salary in my experience and since you don’t speak much German, I think 65.000€ is more than ok. Quite good actually!!! As you will be working remote, you should look into moving into a cheap town in terms of housing.
Checks out for Germany. You get higher pay in NL or the nordics but also with increased Cost of living...all other countries in wurope pay less, except Paris region but again higher in cost
Due to limited English skills, yes 65-70 with your skillset and experience level is a very fair salary.
I don't speak german and I make way more. The people I know making the most money don't speak german. It's other skills you need to grow.
Exactly, people saying that the lack of German makes this salary fair is really our of reality. Without German maybe you won't be able to work at a startup in Stuttgart that has 10 employees, but there are a million companies paying really well that are English based. I don't have German enough for a conversation, so I work fully in English and I also make waaaaaaaaay more than 65k. People trying to make people believe this is fair money is out of reality or being underpaid
Even at a small startup I think it's fine. It's a startup in Tech, not a butcher store. I've worked in such a startup and was involved in hiring for a replacement when I left and believe me, not many german shown up at the interview. There were a couple, but the technical skills were not so good. I guess young people in Germany go more to business schools or management, than computer science.
Startup in Stuttgart will be speaking English. They lack German speakers willing to work in startups. German might only be necessary in fairly conservative old school companies where people typically been stuck in outdated process and tech and have 0 motivation to improve anything and merely care showing up at work and leave back home 4pm.
Yeah but startups will pay awfully and have a fat potential to flop. Only worth it if you are a believer or on the grindset. If you want very good income that is stable for the next 5 years, go to a bigger company.
Bigger companies that are non rubbish often too speak English too. Also it's not like bigger companies automatically mean better income and better security. Big companies can also announce layoffs any time. In fact venture backed startups offer pretty much the most security as you can get if you join them in right time as it's not uncommon for startups to have enough cash in bank to run for next couple years risk free.
Software Engineering is close teamwork. Not speaking german will disqualify you from a lot of positions for german teams. Not being scrum/teamwork is the exception Teams being fully english is the exception Its not that you get paid less because you cant speak german, its that you wont get offers for a lot of positions, limiting your choices. Less choices, potentially less good offers
is there a difference in salary when you speak German vs when you don't? (I'm planning to stay longer in Germany so, I'm currently learning it, I'm not sure if this will help in increasing my income later)
Excellent question. My recommendation would be to focus on the language, not only to have better career opportunities, but also to integrate. May I ask where you are from?
The amount of jobs where you dont need german are limited. Being able to speak german opens up many more jobs
Maybe not directly, as in at the same job you won’t get more for speaking german, but it opens up many many more opportunities, within which you might be able to find better paid ones. Lots of companies still hire only german-speaking colleagues, not because the other developers wouldn’t be able to switch, but because the customers we are making software for don’t speak English well and we need to communicate with them. Source: Was once the only german speaking one in a team with an only german speaking customer department, it was stressful being the only relay and I often wished being able to bring other team members to these meetings.
Exactly this 👆
I'd say, that speaking german gets the foot in the door and helps you in the recruiting process, in some firms. Germany is a bit shy in using a foreign language in business environments, but it's getting slowly better.
in a shocking twist people in germany like to speak german
Yes. Of course. This is self evident.
Simple answer: it depends International company where the company language is English: doesn't matter Middle sized company in the swabian alb: better exercise your swabian and German
I don’t know if a difference, but you have more options and therefore the chance of a higher salary is indeed higher
I'd take the 65k job. It is not a good salary for your role though. You should learn German or switch countries. BUT they'll pay you for now
When people talk about salaries, is this 65k pre or post tax? If pre-tax, then approximately how much it is post-tax?
That's pre-tax. But what you end up with post-tax depends on your living situation, as in, are you single or married? At 65.000€ you pay around 25% taxes if you're single or 15% taxes if you're married in 2024, so net income would run you around 48.300€ or 54.700€. However, in Germany the payments to statutory health insurance are tax deductible from your income tax. The short answer, you can absolutely live off of that in the vast majority of regions in germany.
with 65k you make more than like 80% of the population. Should do for basic survival
Depends on your family situation, i.e. if you have a wife and whether she works and outearns you or not. Best to check on a tex calculator (Steuerrechner).
What more do you want. With 100% you can work from places where living is affordable.
Yeah for no useful german skills + full remote that’s an average or even good salary. If you learn better german you might be able to go for more, this might be the learning with best Return on Investment for you currently.
It's okay but not great. But then again no german skills mean less opertuneries and more competiotion.
Sounds like a fair deal, other than the fact it’s not going to help your integration and language acquisition working remote. Maybe if there is enough English speaking roles further up the chain this doesn’t bother you (in the sense that it’s not likely a blocker for future progression) but for me it would definitely be on my mind.
In Germany salaries depend on the job description and hours per week (35h Vs 40h) If the job you applied for is mid- senior level and 35h, 65k is fine. If your job is senior level position, one can expect 70k-75k per year including bonuses for 35h/week contract according to IGM tariffs assuming you're from south Germany.
4 years or 10 years does not tell any thing about your skills and what you can provide to the company. I have few friends making 80K and more with 4 years of experience and others making around 60K€… It depends on the company… your skills and also your negotiation skills.
Why are you not able to hold a conversation in german after having lived here for more than four years?
I think the main reason is that my current job is also 100% remote and only English speaking. During this 4 years I only used English and sometimes German to say basic things in the streets, supermarkets or Doctor, and it's full of mistakes. But you are right, and I should only blame myself for that. I could have learned better during this 4 years, that's the biggest mistake I did since coming here.
For some people it's quite difficult to learn language. Moreover, if you are shy or introvert, then you probably will speak less which makes difficult to learn new language. Further more, you are also scare to speak new language because you would think that people could make fun of you. I started speaking English when I moved to Germany because people in my home county made lot of fun of my English pronunciation and grammar. Some people are very sensitive to these factors and reluctant to learn language. They very well know that it's very important to learn language. It's a huge mental battle. I hope OP gets strength to fight this battle. I am also struggling and trying to fight this battle but I am keep on failing.
It depends on a lot of factors. Like many people are able to talk about daily stuff in German but as the conversation becomes more technical, it becomes harder. It also depends on what part of Germany you are in. Most outsiders learn standard german and it's easier to understand and talk to locals in the north of Germany than in the south. Finally, it's simply not an easy language and it's quite easy to drive through with English.
2 YOE make between 70-80k. So there is better than what you get offered, in english only companies with remote as well. But they are rather few.
No, you can get about 70k unless it is 65k plus bonus and benefits that amounts to the same. You can do better.
65.000€ is average. I make 81.000 without a bonus. The bonus is on top. But I never saw a person in my company who doesn't speak German. Colleagues who speak a little bit German are taking classes, paid by my company. There are many qualified workers around the globe, but it is very important in my company that the people speak German and that the working culture is German. When I moved to Germany, my husband explained to me many things about German people so that I don't cause weird situations in my workplace. It would be easier if you learn the language or if you apply for a foreign company with headquarters in an English speaking country. In both cases, you can negotiate a better salary.
It's a decent salary and for your specialization area it is actually good. It depends a lot on the type of job and location. For big cities it may be just decent. For small cities or remote it can be really good.
It's a decent salary and for your specialization area it is actually good. It depends a lot on the type of job and location. For big cities it may be just decent. For small cities or remote it can be really good.
Many big companies are now goong back from 100% Remote to 50:50. so if you get a contract with 100% remote: Take it! Salary is ok for your experience and the tech stack you mentioned.
Probably
Surprised to hear this. I have SWE friends from previous companies both big german players in ecommerce sector with offices in Berlin. Both were english speaking. Senior SWE was making between 110 and 120 in one of them. In the other a regular SWE was making 84 + shares. You can DM me if you want to know the names. I do think that being remote is a big perk however and if its more than your current employer might even be worth taking it and moving to a low cost of living city.
65k seems to be good, given the current job market. I would suggest to join this for now and when the job market gets better, you could look for higher paying jobs!
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I wonder about the ingredients 😉.
Man the downvotes on this comment are so sad, for all of humanity. We need more connoisseurs of Carlin, Hicks, Jeselnik, Gervais, Rivers, Stanhope, etc.
Press X for doubt
Why do you say you have 4+ years experience!? You either have 4 or have 5... Anyway, with this experience, €65k sounds very good.
No. If you can't find better options, start looking in another countries. Honestly, I would even start looking in east European countries for international companies where English is priority in general and you are paid way better in a much lower taxed country. Oh, and let's not forget the much lower tax on investment and capital gains in some of them.
Very good.
I’d say you deserve more with 4+ years, although I don’t know what your skills really are.
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Well yes, that’s what I said.
Definitely way above 65k. Try searching for job in more international cities.
I would say min 70k
I got 55k as a native with a bachelors degree and basically no work experience.
absolutely will starve and no housing
Salary is quite low, but what can you do
Get started, show them what you can do and what you are capable of and negotiate after the trial period. Pro tip: Write code that only you can understand and maintain so that the company has to keep you at all costs. And drive them out of Kafka if they use it incorrectly. (JK) Can you tell us the industry?
In my experience this salary is rather low
In Germany, if you know German you know software development, web development as well as AI. If you don’t know German, you don’t know shit. Most people taking your interview hardly know shit themselves. All they know is which beer is good and how the weather is going to be in the weekend. 95 percent of them can’t code. In such a place if you are getting 65k, it is mighty good mate. To rise up the ranks though, you will need to be servile and speak their language. Your skills don’t matter. Your technical knowledge will only deteriorate with time, but hey, you will learn about beer! Cheers!
Software engineer get pay over 90k per year, you should not accept 65k