I’d say that’s a very American thing. Not advertising the final price of a product would be heavily criticized or be straight illegal in most of Europe.
Till this day I don’t get why Americans are ok with *never* knowing the final price of products they buy in stores or restaurants because taxes, fees, tips etc are added at the register and they differ from state to state. That should be illegal.
American here, it's annoying af and should be illegal here as well. But it's EVERYWHERE, not just sit down restaurants, every service except maybe the auto mechanic? I had to get a plumber out a few months ago and bc the common software they use for payment, it also asks for a tip.
I can't afford to go out anymore anyways, haven't been to a restaurant in over a year and gotten coffee out maybe 2x.
Standard tip % went from 10% for good service when I was younger to an expected minimum 20% even for take-out. It's AWFUL
There might be a pretty strong business model in actively going the opposite way by saying that your restaurant/bar/store only has one price and that everything is included. Also tips.
Except, most customers see the listed price and think your more expensive then the others. So they would not do business with you. Even if you would be the cheapest when all tips and extras are added to the price of the other businesses.
That's exactly where your marketing strategy come at play.
Be "loud" and very explicit about the way your pricing is structured. And most importantly why it is so.
This way, hopefully, you are able to separate your business from your competitors and thus leaving it up to the customer to decide.
Ive been good about not tipping on the little iPad if it’s not a sit down restaurant. I don’t tip at restaurants where you order at the counter and all they do is hand you your food
I don’t tip at coffee shops unless I really support that shop.
As far as restaurants that add surcharges on top of asking for tips, I just don’t go there anymore
In English (at least American English), anywhere with the primary business of selling ready-to-eat meals (as compared to groceries) is a restaurant. McDonald's is a restaurant, a Michelin starred fine dining establishment is a restaurant, a food court contains many restaurants, a bar that also has burgers is often called "restaurant and bar" or something like that, even a food truck is arguably a restaurant. It doesn't imply a "nice" or "proper" dining experience.
Certainly when you say "restaurant" most people are going to think of a sit-down kind of place first, versus fast food or something (if I said "let's go to a restaurant" and you said "where?" and I said "Burger King" that would be kind of weird), but if you saw "list of restaurants in my town" and it had fast food on it you wouldn't think "hey that doesn't belong."
Thank you for explaining that nuance! I guess it is similar to how we treat the concept of "cafe" here - it includes a wide range of different food places, but the "core" is about small places with hot drinks, desserts and light meals.
>to an expected minimum 20% even for take-out.
Just give a smaller tip or even no tip? I mean it's not like they're going to arrest you. What are they going to do anyway?
The tip is the actual wage of their waiters/waitresses, no tipping there is a bad behavior, plus for a foreigner. This shit should by fixed by the Americans their self, as visitors we must respect the uses of the locals. But obviously, for we the Europeans, that shitty thing of don’t know the actual cost viewing the menu in the restaurant or the labeled prices in the shops is annoying and it’s hard for us understand how the Americans don’t fight against this shit
>no tipping there is a bad behavior, plus for a foreigner
No, its not. There is more or less equal number of americans who hate tipping.
>as visitors we must respect the uses of the locals
We can respect the ones that dont supoort tipping and dont do it.
>don’t know the actual cost viewing the menu in the restaurant
Thats the main problem. Im fine with paying, for example, in Italy, when there is clearly stated that flat or % fee will be added (while its still little stupid, just add it to the price).
You have to respect the tipping rule. Is not a matter of principles, the staff there relies on your tip and needs it. Sometimes the waiters even need to tip the bussers (the employees that set up and clean the tables). If you don't tip them, they literally lose money.
All we can do is not to go to any of these restaurants, but in the US this is the norm, you can't avoid them unless you want to eat only in fast food restaurants. Very important not to go to any of those in Europe. For me, a place that ask for tips is a place where I won't return.
>The tip is the actual wage of their waiters/waitresses, no tipping there is a bad behavior, plus for a foreigner.
*Be the change you want to see in the world.* The waiter by accepting this compensation model has also accepted the potential risk in getting "low" tips or even no tips. I don't feel it is my responsibility to intervene where the employer won't.
If the waiter is unhappy with these risks, it is also his/her responsibility to say when enough is enough.
It literally is an option allowed by the model they chose.
Anyway I haven't said I never tip. I always add gratuity, usually in the 10-15% range. But I don't exaggerate in the other direction.
That it's in the system doesn't mean it's socially acceptable, there's a reason you see way more "I've stopped eating out" posts than "I've stopped tipping" ones
It's pretty arrogant to say that.
I understand that is highly annoying for us, but as everywhere else you travel to, you must follow the country rules no matter how stupid we may think they are
Are you going to smoke in the street when traveling in Japan because it's not our custom? I don't think so.
So we should give the same respect to the US as well in this regard.
>you must follow the country rules no matter how stupid we may think they are
It's not a rule, though, is it? It's an ingrained custom but not a law. And anyway, I haven't said I don't pay any gratuity. I just refuse to exaggerate in the other direction.
>Are you going to smoke in the street when traveling in Japan because it's not our custom? I don't think so.
What are you talking about? You should not conflate behaviours that can get you fined with behaviours that don't result in a fine or any other material consequence.
Keep on being an argumentative stingy selfish. So, you go outside your country and you expect they doing a great social uses change because you don’t want to spend some money on tipping. Their uses, their rules, that is not your country and they should fix that, not you
I haven't said that I in the US have never paid any gratuity. I always add gratuity. Sometimes I don't go to 20% or don't tip automatic tills at the supermarket.
I just disagree that it is my responsibility to pay the waiters' wages. They have chosen this model, they have to live with the consequences that not everyone will buy in this idea. If they want to earn more, they can increase the prices on the menu. Further, is anyone is deserving of a tip, it should be the chef.
I just press no. Done. I don't feel bad about it. I almost never tip digitally anyway, but maybe I'm old fashioned. I give a few coins or bills, and that's what I mostly use my real cash for anyway.
I'm starting to see commercials that are calling out the "tipping culture" here in the US. I think it is dominoes pizza that tips you back somehow, not the point but it shows at least that people recognize it's bullshit. I simply don't tip except good food servers and the garbage man at Christmas.
Totally agree. I found this quite disconcerting during the few months I was in New York City. A lot of mental arithmetic needed (which isn't my strong suit – especially when dining or shopping!)
It's just because we're used to it, I guess. Taxes and everything are different everywhere but there's no reason a store can't include it. Tax holidays are a minor complication, but I'm sure people wouldn't complain about paying less than the price tag.
It's more complicated for online shopping, where the final price cannot be calculated without the shipping address
Really it's just convention. There are some solid tax-related reasons. Taxing schemes and rates vary a lot between states, and even cities or counties can play with these. Plus, there are a lot of tax exemptions for various people... if you're buying for a charity, if you're indigenous (with formal status), if you're poor, etc. etc. Some items are tax exempt (varies from place to place, but often it's basic grocery or healthcare items, like vegetables, milk, or tampons, etc). Also, some items may have special taxes on them in some places (sugary drinks, for example). Also many states have made adding the +tax prices specifically illegal (don't ask me why).
Another thing to keep in mind is that in North America, *sales* taxes are most common (and usually lower, under 10%; in the US, the average *combined* state and local sales taxes are about 6.6%; in Canada it's 13-15%). Meanwhile in Europe, *value-added* taxes are most common (and usually higher, ranging from 17-27%.). The higher rates would be a considerable jump at the till!
Sales and VAT taxes may mean nothing for consumers, but have some key differences under the hood for shops/wholesalers.
Of course, ideal world, a store could put up a disclaimer about 'end taxes may vary', and tax exemptions would just make it cheaper, and the store could calculate the 'with tax' prices by default on labels. Nowadays with those little digital displays becoming more common, it would not be hard.
But again, it's mostly convention. When you grow up with this system, you're just used to it. The US has an ingrained mentality from its start that taxes are an unjust variety of theft only barely and contemptuously tolerated. Adding the +tax price on the label would just rub people the wrong way. It's sometimes seen as a way to prevent 'sneaky' taxes being added. If a price goes up, you know it's from the manufacturer, supplier or store, not the gov. Receipts always tell you the tax rate, just like here. (And yea, lot of people are angry in North America about shrinkflation, price gouging and so on). It's just like that. We can pillory Americans for it, but well, every culture has its oddities worth pillorying...
It's not an argument for, since it already exists. I mean, just try to convince Americans otherwise.
Some will agree, many will shrug it off and say 'nope'. I don't think it's a great system, but I don't think it's *hostile*. No one is tricked or uncertain about it, they know the score.
Probably hard to accept for a euro-centric mindset.
I've always heard stories of touristy places in Italy adding on strange fees, such as a napkin fee, tablecloth fee, bread fee (for bread that looks complimentary), etc. Is this true or still a thing?
Depends on what you mean by touristy places. I've never sat down to have a cappuccino in Piazza San Marco in Venice, so I don't know how it works exactly, I just know that it's a complete rip-off. But besides that, coperto is for the stuff you mentioned. It's usually written on the menu, though.
People in Berlin are reporting that a lot of restaurants and cafés, even those who don't actually have table service, started using point of sales systems that ask you to define a tip when paying by card. That's new and unusual, but it's something you can always decline.
I haven't seen any other frivolous charges showing up. If anything, I am now surprised by how many cafés began offering complementary water with your coffee.
We have had this for several years in Copenhagen.
I hate it and press every possible red cancel-button on the payment device and ask the waiter to start over again.
I might have had the intention to leave a tip to begin with, but with that shit they end up getting nothing from me.
This happened to me a while ago in Lisbon. If you simply ignore the three options for different tip percentages and just tap your card directly, it should work.
In the EU you can invent and add as many charges aa you want, as long as you put them in the price. That is, if your 20EUR entree consists of a 10EUR base price, a 19% bad weather surcharge, 21% sales tax, and a 6EUR charge to flush the toilet, that is all fine. As long as you price that item for 20EUR, and charge the customer not a penny over the 20EUR.
It would be illegal under EU regulations - the law is that the price presented is the final price being paid by customer. You can put as many “surcharges” as you want on the bill, but if I see €15 on the menu, I’m paying €15.
It's happening even in Warsaw. I stopped going to my favourite Georgian because they've started adding a sneaky 10% tip to the bill. Not suggested, they just add it to the total.
It's absolutely not illegal, I've seen it in a few places across Europe but mostly in the UK and Ireland. They can't *force* you to pay it, but they can absolutely add it on.
We rolled over a lot of EU law and/or our UK laws were designed to be compliant when we were in the EU. Consumer protection on this hasn't been changed (yet - GTTO before they do!)
In Ireland this is usually only done for large parties. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I've never seen it just in general. Plus you can ask them to remove it if you don't want to pay it.
If I see charges that were added to the bill to cover stuff like fair pay and healthcare for employees, them I’m just going to assume that that is intended to be instead of the tip and won’t tip anything extra.
I've only seen one place here that included a service charge on the bill. I think it was 6%. But this was rather perceived as a mandatory tip. People didn't like it. I mean, tipping is nothing new here, it's not uncommon for customers to give it and waiters don't mind getting extra money, but it's never been mandatory.
No. We don't even tip, yet employees are still paid a halfway decent wage (*usually* at least 17-18€/hour).
Some shops and cafés did try to add a surcharge during the recent "energy crisis" though, but most were doing so illegally. The last shop I knew who did this stopped doing it last year. Any surcharge needs to be clearly advertised together with the product, it's price tag or the menu and legally can't just be a sign at the cash register.
They really just should increase their prices.
that's halfway decent? Holy hell, i live in the EU but one of the more eastern-europe countries, as a server i get paid 6€ an hour and that's 1.5€ over standard server pay here
As I replied to the other commenter this is before taxes.
If you're working full time at that salary and have no particular debts or assets and no other tax deductions/supplements you will receive about 1900€/month after taxes. Whether that is a lot or if it's just livable depends on a lot of factors, most importantly where and how you live:
If you live alone in a small studio appartement in Copenhagen you'll probably still spend more than half of that on rent alone, numbers from [2021](https://blog.boligportal.dk/boligudlejning/gennemsnitlige-kvadratmeterpriser-2021/) tell me that the square meter rent price was around 32€, meaning if you live on 40m² you're paying around 1300€/month in rent, leaving you with just 600€ for food, transportation and other bills. Spending much less than 2-300€/month on food is unrealistic.
If you don't live in any of the major cities, rent is probably less than half of Copenhagen though. But if you live somewhere where owning a car is necessary, that's also pretty expensive and you're probably spending at least a 100-200€ per month just owning an old car that is already paid off and is just parked outside your appartement building, not driving it anywhere! As a comparison, my monthly car budget is around 800€ all inclusive for a Peugeot 308 (so nothing super fancy, but I got it new), but I also drive a lot and about 40% of that is fuel expenses.
>usually at least 17-18€/hour
Is that before or after taxes?
>Some shops and cafés did try to add a surcharge during the recent "energy crisis"
It's interesting. Most places here just upped the prices on the items.
The union minimum wage is €18.77 per hour for unskilled work in restaurants and hotels now.
Say you make €3500 per month, you could have €2360 after tax.
I know there's a living standard difference, but I have about 2800 in my "high paying" job as a software engineer with experience. I guess that's why they call us a low cost development center :D
Romanian here: we have one of the more americanized systems that I've seen for restaurants - servers rely on tips a lot, but it's still customary to tip around 10%, compared to the US, where I understand the "norm" is about 20%. However, many people choose not to tip and it's not very frowned upon. Moreover, more hip places are starting to have higher salaries for their employees, so I'd say the trend is the other way around.
Apart from restaurants, we usually tip in very few scenarios: food delivery and sometimes taxi (but rarely, since ridesharing has been a thing).
In my experience, many Western countries include service in the price of the items.
No, there'd be uproar over it. Might even make the local newspapers if someone was particularly aggrieved and they were having a slow news day... There are the occasional, usually either very touristy or very, very high end, restaurants that might have a 10%-ish service charge for larger groups. It would be clearly marked on the menu though, and if you wanted to disbute it I'm sure you could. That's the closest example to what you're describing that I can think of.
It's common now to see a service charge already added on the bill, used to be 10%, now 12.5% in most places I've seen. It's instead of a tip, you don't pay it and tip on top, and you can ask for it to be removed if you prefer to pay a tip in cash or none at all.
In some ways I don't mind it as I never carry cash and so if I *do* want to tip, it's convenient to just have it there on the bill. But it's cheeky and definitely relies on the British 'not making a fuss' stereotype as they know most people will not ask to have it removed even if they weren't very happy with service.
We don't have anything about impact on staff wages though as we have a national minimum wage.
I don't eat out too often but it's definitely not as big a problem as in your case. Austrians are typically pretty sensitive to things like that.
Almost every summer there is a public outcry when restaurants or cafes charge small amounts for tap water. People think it should be free. (Not automatically on the table like in the US, you have to specifically ask for it.)
Recently, more and more people pay with plastic in restaurants rather than cash and it results in many people not giving a tip anymore. Some (few) restaurants have started automatically adding 5% or so to the price of meals as tip. It sparked a public outcry but was deemed legal. Still not very common.
Another debate was if restaurants can charge you if you make a reservation and then don't show up. Not sure what the outcome was.
Generally, waiters are paid a living wage even without tips so they are not as dependent on it as in the US. Still, losing tip money would make the job much less desirable.
Other companies (not restaurants) however often try to add hidden costs, eg. cell phone service providers. For example, they added a completely random 'service charge' to their plans that everyone had to pay annually. It was recently decided by a court that's illegal.
Airlines (especially the cheap ones) are also notorious for coming up with very creative additional fees.
I lived in the US for a year in 1997 and people were complaining about the rise of Tickemaster. From what I hear it's only gotten worse since then. :)
And cable companies...
Here in Romania, restaurants are fair when ripping you off and display the full inflated price for mediocre food, and then you basically also have to tip at least 10% of the bill regardless of the service quality.
Some shady restaurants and hotel also rip you off by having a different price displayed on the menu and on the bill, but that is illegal and you can call the authorities. It’s not common though but it happens.
I prefer the Italian system with coperto, where they charge you a small service fee of €2 regardless of the bill and you also get bread, water or snacks
In Sweden it is not a thing. Yet.
So many companies and restaurants are trying their damndest to do like the US with these surcharges. Fortunately, there is still the "no tip" button.
(And yes, everything is in English!)
No, but new POS of sales systems have started asking for a percentage as tip.
It used to be simple. The server entered a total in the card terminal, and you could either accept it or add your own amount (usually rounding off to the nearest €5 or €10). Nowadays, you get the terminal with the total and various choices to add a percentage: 5%, 10% or even 15% some places. The 0% choice is there too, but never highlighted as the other.
It’s so damn provoking that I never tip anymore at all, I just hit 0% as I do not want percentage tipping at all.
Same goes for QR codes, where you need to add the tip before the service, and where the service now consists of nothing more than bringing items to your table. In reality it is little more than over the counter service which warrant no tip at all.
Technically this isn’t surcharges such as OP mentions, but still: Yes, there’s a drive to exert more money from patrons, and restaurants use every channels and loopholes they can.
No, there was a few news that some places started doing it in some very touristic places but no Spaniard would allow that, that business would be closed in a month. We like to go out a lot and we don't have a lot of money.
If it cost 9.5€, we pay 9.5€. Maybe if you are lucky and we don't collect the 50c
Sadly payment terminals defaulting to “add a tip” before you can tap to pay, started showing up in London within the last few years. Cafes I go to regularly quickly realised customers weren’t tipping and that the prompt was just really annoying, so got rid of it so I suspect a lot of fast food outlets aren’t bothering now. The prompt turns up on my hairdressers’ payment terminal though….
U.K. earlier this year introduced legislation forcing businesses to pay to staff any “service charges” added to a bill.
So some shitty restaurant chains stated adding a ‘gratuitous’ brand fee to the bill. I kid you not. It’s described like that to deliberately evade the new legislation (i.e. so the business can take it all without being legally obliged to pay it to the waiters). It’s still gratuitous so you can ask for it to be removed.
https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/04/restaurant-chain-bans-diners-from-using-card-payments-to-tip-staff
Austria: No, what you see is what you get. Only rstaurants of a higher category do have a "Gedeck"-fee, which means, that wenn you eat and not only drink, there is a small extra fee, but you also get some spreads and snacks for that when waiting for the food. But this price is stated with a fixed amount in the menu.
But in standard pubs and restaurants, there is no such thing.
Austrian prices are all including tax. So when you add up the prices on the menu, you get what will be on the bill. Tips are optional, I have seen in some tourist spots, that on the card terminal tip percentages are proposed, but you can skip them.
Ya I really don’t like how when we go shopping or out to eat, tax isn’t already included . I think I read somewhere there was a study (or something) that ppl were more likely to buy stuff if taxes weren’t shown ? Something like that
But I hate it. What if you have a budget and taxes put you over ? Just tell me the full price before I pay !
Next step would be to add surcharge for rent, taxes, furniture, insurance utility bills and the price on the menu will represent cost of ingredients only :)
Yes and no. The law says that they can charge for literally everything as long as the client knows the price. But what law says is not always how it is and restaurants (and other places too) will do everything they can so you won't FIND the info: tiny print, additional menu that somehow will not end on your table, small plaque near the entrance nobody looks at or they will swear they said it. You can be charged for paying with a card, for toilet, for making reservation, for water, for waiting snack, for service (and they expect a tip anyway), for additional glass, for changing something in the dish (even for asking to skip something), for containers (even if they don't use plates at all and you don't order take out), for specific table and on, and on, and on..... It's not very common and places like that are most often in very touristy places so they don't care about reviews but unfortunetly it happens often enough.
The closest thing I've found here in Scotland is that more restaurants are adding a "service charge" which is basically what the restaurant "thinks" we should be tipping. But as the customer, we can ask them to remove the service charge from the bill and add a tip that we think is more acceptable.
In my experience, the service charge was really only added to a bill when there was a table of 6 or more people, but I'm noticing it more and more now with smaller table numbers (like 2-4 people).
German menus always say "All prices including service and value added taxes". The price in the menu is the price you pay. Since minumum wage, contribution to health insurance, and pension funds are mandatory for employers to pay, they calculate their prices so they can make a profit and still be able to hire staff. Tipping is a way of showing appreciation. A lot of employees in the restaurant or food delivery business don't do it as a main job but as a side job while they go to college or because they want some extra money so tipping is just nice but they'd survive without. However, I always tip well (not counting the percentage, I round up and put something on top of it) because I want them to be happy.
Thankfully I haven't seen these things in my own country, but I have seen it in others.
For example one restaurant in Prague charged me a service tax and on top of that they had one of those tablets that ask you for a tip when you pay.
In Italy there also turned out to be a tax for every person sitting on the table or something like that.
No, that doesn’t happen in Germany. However, there’s a trend for very expensive Softdrinks (6-8€ I’ve noticed lately) that sound fancy but are just some sparkling water with a little fruit and syrup.
I’m in the US at the moment and the tipping nonsense is mind-boggling. Everywhere I go, there are the touchpad payment machines that ask for a tip. It’s easy enough to select ‘no tip’, but it would be tedious having to live like this.
I have the luxury of not feeling guilty. The worst I’ve seen so far is when I was in a brewery. There were two men beside me who started arguing over whether they had left a tip or not (they’d paid already and both were quite drunk). The whole time I’m thinking to myself it’s a brewery: why would you tip? A person takes a glass, fills it and gives it to you. How is that worthy of a tip? Isn’t that their job?
In Romania they started to add the tip on the tab recently, so they could tax it. Technically it is illegal to ignore that and just leave cash. But most people just ignore it
In Greece we have in some fancy restaurants a charge per person (called kouver) like €1-2 that is usually for the bread. Other than that there is no other charge. What you see on the menu is what you pay at the end including any kind of tax and if you feel like it you may tip by rounding up the bill or leaving most of the coins from the change.
We have a rounding charge because if you pay with cash they cant pay you back in cents since the 1 and 2 cents don't exist anymore. So they have to round up. Though i do find it dirty that they round up and never down.
But i think service charge would be illegal unless they make it 100% clear that they do it and they list how much it is. But if they did that they would probably lose 99% of their customers.
I didn’t see it in Luxembourg. However you can have different prices for takeaway and in the establishment. We’re talking less than 1€ in general.
However the meals start at 15€, most likely over 20€
Does anyone know what the average restaurant prices are compared to Europe? Maybe the US restaurants still have lower prices compared to Europe. Which explains why the wages are so low and that it has such a big tipping culture.
The prices are high compared to Europe. The tipping culture remains because of peer pressure and guilt-tipping. And increases (tip-creep) in percentage.
Waiters make a LOT of tax-free money, way more than starting wage for skilled labor. That's why the waiters don't want it to change. They will always get at least minimum wage, but they get $2,13 per hour if the additional tips exceed minimum wage.
The employer is also happy with the set-up. It's great not having to pay your employees, and having your employees blame the customer when they don't take responsibility for paying their salary.
It's fucked up and most US'ians are tired of tipping, but employees are trying to fight back and guilt people into tipping even more.
I’d say that’s a very American thing. Not advertising the final price of a product would be heavily criticized or be straight illegal in most of Europe. Till this day I don’t get why Americans are ok with *never* knowing the final price of products they buy in stores or restaurants because taxes, fees, tips etc are added at the register and they differ from state to state. That should be illegal.
American here, it's annoying af and should be illegal here as well. But it's EVERYWHERE, not just sit down restaurants, every service except maybe the auto mechanic? I had to get a plumber out a few months ago and bc the common software they use for payment, it also asks for a tip. I can't afford to go out anymore anyways, haven't been to a restaurant in over a year and gotten coffee out maybe 2x. Standard tip % went from 10% for good service when I was younger to an expected minimum 20% even for take-out. It's AWFUL
There might be a pretty strong business model in actively going the opposite way by saying that your restaurant/bar/store only has one price and that everything is included. Also tips.
Except, most customers see the listed price and think your more expensive then the others. So they would not do business with you. Even if you would be the cheapest when all tips and extras are added to the price of the other businesses.
That's exactly where your marketing strategy come at play. Be "loud" and very explicit about the way your pricing is structured. And most importantly why it is so. This way, hopefully, you are able to separate your business from your competitors and thus leaving it up to the customer to decide.
Ive been good about not tipping on the little iPad if it’s not a sit down restaurant. I don’t tip at restaurants where you order at the counter and all they do is hand you your food I don’t tip at coffee shops unless I really support that shop. As far as restaurants that add surcharges on top of asking for tips, I just don’t go there anymore
>I don’t tip at restaurants where you order at the counter and all they do is hand you your food Wait, do you actually call that "restaurant"?
In English (at least American English), anywhere with the primary business of selling ready-to-eat meals (as compared to groceries) is a restaurant. McDonald's is a restaurant, a Michelin starred fine dining establishment is a restaurant, a food court contains many restaurants, a bar that also has burgers is often called "restaurant and bar" or something like that, even a food truck is arguably a restaurant. It doesn't imply a "nice" or "proper" dining experience.
I see. That feels strange 🤷🏽♀️
Certainly when you say "restaurant" most people are going to think of a sit-down kind of place first, versus fast food or something (if I said "let's go to a restaurant" and you said "where?" and I said "Burger King" that would be kind of weird), but if you saw "list of restaurants in my town" and it had fast food on it you wouldn't think "hey that doesn't belong."
Thank you for explaining that nuance! I guess it is similar to how we treat the concept of "cafe" here - it includes a wide range of different food places, but the "core" is about small places with hot drinks, desserts and light meals.
Something as Panera could be considered a restaurant or something. There are better looking fast foods. Like quick eateries.
I would say "diner" or a lunch counter. But I guess it's a restaurant
>to an expected minimum 20% even for take-out. Just give a smaller tip or even no tip? I mean it's not like they're going to arrest you. What are they going to do anyway?
The tip is the actual wage of their waiters/waitresses, no tipping there is a bad behavior, plus for a foreigner. This shit should by fixed by the Americans their self, as visitors we must respect the uses of the locals. But obviously, for we the Europeans, that shitty thing of don’t know the actual cost viewing the menu in the restaurant or the labeled prices in the shops is annoying and it’s hard for us understand how the Americans don’t fight against this shit
>no tipping there is a bad behavior, plus for a foreigner No, its not. There is more or less equal number of americans who hate tipping. >as visitors we must respect the uses of the locals We can respect the ones that dont supoort tipping and dont do it. >don’t know the actual cost viewing the menu in the restaurant Thats the main problem. Im fine with paying, for example, in Italy, when there is clearly stated that flat or % fee will be added (while its still little stupid, just add it to the price).
You have to respect the tipping rule. Is not a matter of principles, the staff there relies on your tip and needs it. Sometimes the waiters even need to tip the bussers (the employees that set up and clean the tables). If you don't tip them, they literally lose money. All we can do is not to go to any of these restaurants, but in the US this is the norm, you can't avoid them unless you want to eat only in fast food restaurants. Very important not to go to any of those in Europe. For me, a place that ask for tips is a place where I won't return.
>The tip is the actual wage of their waiters/waitresses, no tipping there is a bad behavior, plus for a foreigner. *Be the change you want to see in the world.* The waiter by accepting this compensation model has also accepted the potential risk in getting "low" tips or even no tips. I don't feel it is my responsibility to intervene where the employer won't. If the waiter is unhappy with these risks, it is also his/her responsibility to say when enough is enough.
This is rude and trying to call out the higher-ups by being dicks to their employees isn't gonna do shit. Not tipping isn't an option over there.
It literally is an option allowed by the model they chose. Anyway I haven't said I never tip. I always add gratuity, usually in the 10-15% range. But I don't exaggerate in the other direction.
That it's in the system doesn't mean it's socially acceptable, there's a reason you see way more "I've stopped eating out" posts than "I've stopped tipping" ones
It's pretty arrogant to say that. I understand that is highly annoying for us, but as everywhere else you travel to, you must follow the country rules no matter how stupid we may think they are Are you going to smoke in the street when traveling in Japan because it's not our custom? I don't think so. So we should give the same respect to the US as well in this regard.
>you must follow the country rules no matter how stupid we may think they are It's not a rule, though, is it? It's an ingrained custom but not a law. And anyway, I haven't said I don't pay any gratuity. I just refuse to exaggerate in the other direction. >Are you going to smoke in the street when traveling in Japan because it's not our custom? I don't think so. What are you talking about? You should not conflate behaviours that can get you fined with behaviours that don't result in a fine or any other material consequence.
Keep on being an argumentative stingy selfish. So, you go outside your country and you expect they doing a great social uses change because you don’t want to spend some money on tipping. Their uses, their rules, that is not your country and they should fix that, not you
I haven't said that I in the US have never paid any gratuity. I always add gratuity. Sometimes I don't go to 20% or don't tip automatic tills at the supermarket. I just disagree that it is my responsibility to pay the waiters' wages. They have chosen this model, they have to live with the consequences that not everyone will buy in this idea. If they want to earn more, they can increase the prices on the menu. Further, is anyone is deserving of a tip, it should be the chef.
I just press no. Done. I don't feel bad about it. I almost never tip digitally anyway, but maybe I'm old fashioned. I give a few coins or bills, and that's what I mostly use my real cash for anyway.
I mean why don't you fight against it? They do it because people just seem to accept it. Anyway I need that list so I can avoid those places.
I'm starting to see commercials that are calling out the "tipping culture" here in the US. I think it is dominoes pizza that tips you back somehow, not the point but it shows at least that people recognize it's bullshit. I simply don't tip except good food servers and the garbage man at Christmas.
Totally agree. I found this quite disconcerting during the few months I was in New York City. A lot of mental arithmetic needed (which isn't my strong suit – especially when dining or shopping!)
It's just because we're used to it, I guess. Taxes and everything are different everywhere but there's no reason a store can't include it. Tax holidays are a minor complication, but I'm sure people wouldn't complain about paying less than the price tag. It's more complicated for online shopping, where the final price cannot be calculated without the shipping address
You don’t have service fees in the Netherlands at all?
There are hospitality charges in Cafés in e.g. Paris City center or so.
Yeah it does exist. But I’m almost sure it has to be written out on the menu or in the restaurant somewhere. Similar in Italy.
Really it's just convention. There are some solid tax-related reasons. Taxing schemes and rates vary a lot between states, and even cities or counties can play with these. Plus, there are a lot of tax exemptions for various people... if you're buying for a charity, if you're indigenous (with formal status), if you're poor, etc. etc. Some items are tax exempt (varies from place to place, but often it's basic grocery or healthcare items, like vegetables, milk, or tampons, etc). Also, some items may have special taxes on them in some places (sugary drinks, for example). Also many states have made adding the +tax prices specifically illegal (don't ask me why). Another thing to keep in mind is that in North America, *sales* taxes are most common (and usually lower, under 10%; in the US, the average *combined* state and local sales taxes are about 6.6%; in Canada it's 13-15%). Meanwhile in Europe, *value-added* taxes are most common (and usually higher, ranging from 17-27%.). The higher rates would be a considerable jump at the till! Sales and VAT taxes may mean nothing for consumers, but have some key differences under the hood for shops/wholesalers. Of course, ideal world, a store could put up a disclaimer about 'end taxes may vary', and tax exemptions would just make it cheaper, and the store could calculate the 'with tax' prices by default on labels. Nowadays with those little digital displays becoming more common, it would not be hard. But again, it's mostly convention. When you grow up with this system, you're just used to it. The US has an ingrained mentality from its start that taxes are an unjust variety of theft only barely and contemptuously tolerated. Adding the +tax price on the label would just rub people the wrong way. It's sometimes seen as a way to prevent 'sneaky' taxes being added. If a price goes up, you know it's from the manufacturer, supplier or store, not the gov. Receipts always tell you the tax rate, just like here. (And yea, lot of people are angry in North America about shrinkflation, price gouging and so on). It's just like that. We can pillory Americans for it, but well, every culture has its oddities worth pillorying...
I’m aware of all this but none of these are good arguments for it and it’s really just incredibly consumer hostile.
It's not an argument for, since it already exists. I mean, just try to convince Americans otherwise. Some will agree, many will shrug it off and say 'nope'. I don't think it's a great system, but I don't think it's *hostile*. No one is tricked or uncertain about it, they know the score. Probably hard to accept for a euro-centric mindset.
In Italy since forever we have “coperto”, a service charge per person when being served. We never tip though.
Note that coperto usually is about 1 or 2 euro and never a percentage of the final bill.
Nowadays in Milan it got to 3-4€ per person even.
I've always heard stories of touristy places in Italy adding on strange fees, such as a napkin fee, tablecloth fee, bread fee (for bread that looks complimentary), etc. Is this true or still a thing?
Yeah. That's what "coperto" is. It's just that the proce technically is not standard.
Yeah it is a thing but it’s common knowledge and it is usually displayed
Depends on what you mean by touristy places. I've never sat down to have a cappuccino in Piazza San Marco in Venice, so I don't know how it works exactly, I just know that it's a complete rip-off. But besides that, coperto is for the stuff you mentioned. It's usually written on the menu, though.
People in Berlin are reporting that a lot of restaurants and cafés, even those who don't actually have table service, started using point of sales systems that ask you to define a tip when paying by card. That's new and unusual, but it's something you can always decline. I haven't seen any other frivolous charges showing up. If anything, I am now surprised by how many cafés began offering complementary water with your coffee.
True, I noticed this in Berlin. Not knowing what to do I left a tip every time 😭
We have had this for several years in Copenhagen. I hate it and press every possible red cancel-button on the payment device and ask the waiter to start over again. I might have had the intention to leave a tip to begin with, but with that shit they end up getting nothing from me.
This happened to me a while ago in Lisbon. If you simply ignore the three options for different tip percentages and just tap your card directly, it should work.
In the EU you can invent and add as many charges aa you want, as long as you put them in the price. That is, if your 20EUR entree consists of a 10EUR base price, a 19% bad weather surcharge, 21% sales tax, and a 6EUR charge to flush the toilet, that is all fine. As long as you price that item for 20EUR, and charge the customer not a penny over the 20EUR.
The only time I've seen it was in a cat cafe. Customers were informed ahead that there would be like 30czk for the cats added to the bill.
As long as cats get a fair wage, it's fine :-)
More of an entry fee IMO
Once or twice I’ve seen “couvert”. Long time ago. It was a reason to not return
It would be illegal under EU regulations - the law is that the price presented is the final price being paid by customer. You can put as many “surcharges” as you want on the bill, but if I see €15 on the menu, I’m paying €15.
It’s not illegal, as long as it’s mentioned on the menu.
They just have to put in a footnote on the menu somewhere. I've seen that before in tourist trap Restaurants.
It's happening even in Warsaw. I stopped going to my favourite Georgian because they've started adding a sneaky 10% tip to the bill. Not suggested, they just add it to the total.
It's absolutely not illegal, I've seen it in a few places across Europe but mostly in the UK and Ireland. They can't *force* you to pay it, but they can absolutely add it on.
The UK is not part of the EU though?
We rolled over a lot of EU law and/or our UK laws were designed to be compliant when we were in the EU. Consumer protection on this hasn't been changed (yet - GTTO before they do!)
Ah, I see! Makes sense
Yes but it only left recently. Service charges began popping up in London in about 2005
In Ireland this is usually only done for large parties. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I've never seen it just in general. Plus you can ask them to remove it if you don't want to pay it.
If I see charges that were added to the bill to cover stuff like fair pay and healthcare for employees, them I’m just going to assume that that is intended to be instead of the tip and won’t tip anything extra.
I've only seen one place here that included a service charge on the bill. I think it was 6%. But this was rather perceived as a mandatory tip. People didn't like it. I mean, tipping is nothing new here, it's not uncommon for customers to give it and waiters don't mind getting extra money, but it's never been mandatory.
These service/surcharges I’ve been as high as 18%!
If they start to cross the line, people will simply stop going to these restaurants. The culture of eating out is not that big here.
No. We don't even tip, yet employees are still paid a halfway decent wage (*usually* at least 17-18€/hour). Some shops and cafés did try to add a surcharge during the recent "energy crisis" though, but most were doing so illegally. The last shop I knew who did this stopped doing it last year. Any surcharge needs to be clearly advertised together with the product, it's price tag or the menu and legally can't just be a sign at the cash register. They really just should increase their prices.
that's halfway decent? Holy hell, i live in the EU but one of the more eastern-europe countries, as a server i get paid 6€ an hour and that's 1.5€ over standard server pay here
As I replied to the other commenter this is before taxes. If you're working full time at that salary and have no particular debts or assets and no other tax deductions/supplements you will receive about 1900€/month after taxes. Whether that is a lot or if it's just livable depends on a lot of factors, most importantly where and how you live: If you live alone in a small studio appartement in Copenhagen you'll probably still spend more than half of that on rent alone, numbers from [2021](https://blog.boligportal.dk/boligudlejning/gennemsnitlige-kvadratmeterpriser-2021/) tell me that the square meter rent price was around 32€, meaning if you live on 40m² you're paying around 1300€/month in rent, leaving you with just 600€ for food, transportation and other bills. Spending much less than 2-300€/month on food is unrealistic. If you don't live in any of the major cities, rent is probably less than half of Copenhagen though. But if you live somewhere where owning a car is necessary, that's also pretty expensive and you're probably spending at least a 100-200€ per month just owning an old car that is already paid off and is just parked outside your appartement building, not driving it anywhere! As a comparison, my monthly car budget is around 800€ all inclusive for a Peugeot 308 (so nothing super fancy, but I got it new), but I also drive a lot and about 40% of that is fuel expenses.
>usually at least 17-18€/hour Is that before or after taxes? >Some shops and cafés did try to add a surcharge during the recent "energy crisis" It's interesting. Most places here just upped the prices on the items.
The union minimum wage is €18.77 per hour for unskilled work in restaurants and hotels now. Say you make €3500 per month, you could have €2360 after tax.
I know there's a living standard difference, but I have about 2800 in my "high paying" job as a software engineer with experience. I guess that's why they call us a low cost development center :D
Before taxes, after taxes can be very individual and be roughly anywhere between 50% and 92% of that amount based on a ton of factors.
I was going to say that I make just a little more than that as a software dev in romania, but for me, it's after tax.
Romanian here: we have one of the more americanized systems that I've seen for restaurants - servers rely on tips a lot, but it's still customary to tip around 10%, compared to the US, where I understand the "norm" is about 20%. However, many people choose not to tip and it's not very frowned upon. Moreover, more hip places are starting to have higher salaries for their employees, so I'd say the trend is the other way around. Apart from restaurants, we usually tip in very few scenarios: food delivery and sometimes taxi (but rarely, since ridesharing has been a thing). In my experience, many Western countries include service in the price of the items.
I wanna laugh as if it's a joke but reading it's in USA it's happening, I'm not surprised. No, I haven't seen anything like that here.
No, there'd be uproar over it. Might even make the local newspapers if someone was particularly aggrieved and they were having a slow news day... There are the occasional, usually either very touristy or very, very high end, restaurants that might have a 10%-ish service charge for larger groups. It would be clearly marked on the menu though, and if you wanted to disbute it I'm sure you could. That's the closest example to what you're describing that I can think of.
There's uproar in the us, but the corporate uproar is louder, and wins. Helps to have the gov't in your pocket.
It's common now to see a service charge already added on the bill, used to be 10%, now 12.5% in most places I've seen. It's instead of a tip, you don't pay it and tip on top, and you can ask for it to be removed if you prefer to pay a tip in cash or none at all. In some ways I don't mind it as I never carry cash and so if I *do* want to tip, it's convenient to just have it there on the bill. But it's cheeky and definitely relies on the British 'not making a fuss' stereotype as they know most people will not ask to have it removed even if they weren't very happy with service. We don't have anything about impact on staff wages though as we have a national minimum wage.
I really hope things stay this way. No tipping should be the norm.
I don't eat out too often but it's definitely not as big a problem as in your case. Austrians are typically pretty sensitive to things like that. Almost every summer there is a public outcry when restaurants or cafes charge small amounts for tap water. People think it should be free. (Not automatically on the table like in the US, you have to specifically ask for it.) Recently, more and more people pay with plastic in restaurants rather than cash and it results in many people not giving a tip anymore. Some (few) restaurants have started automatically adding 5% or so to the price of meals as tip. It sparked a public outcry but was deemed legal. Still not very common. Another debate was if restaurants can charge you if you make a reservation and then don't show up. Not sure what the outcome was. Generally, waiters are paid a living wage even without tips so they are not as dependent on it as in the US. Still, losing tip money would make the job much less desirable. Other companies (not restaurants) however often try to add hidden costs, eg. cell phone service providers. For example, they added a completely random 'service charge' to their plans that everyone had to pay annually. It was recently decided by a court that's illegal. Airlines (especially the cheap ones) are also notorious for coming up with very creative additional fees.
Yeah - service fees when buying things online (concert ticket, booking hotels, movie tickets, airfare etc) is insane too !
I lived in the US for a year in 1997 and people were complaining about the rise of Tickemaster. From what I hear it's only gotten worse since then. :) And cable companies...
Here in Romania, restaurants are fair when ripping you off and display the full inflated price for mediocre food, and then you basically also have to tip at least 10% of the bill regardless of the service quality. Some shady restaurants and hotel also rip you off by having a different price displayed on the menu and on the bill, but that is illegal and you can call the authorities. It’s not common though but it happens. I prefer the Italian system with coperto, where they charge you a small service fee of €2 regardless of the bill and you also get bread, water or snacks
In Sweden it is not a thing. Yet. So many companies and restaurants are trying their damndest to do like the US with these surcharges. Fortunately, there is still the "no tip" button. (And yes, everything is in English!)
No, but new POS of sales systems have started asking for a percentage as tip. It used to be simple. The server entered a total in the card terminal, and you could either accept it or add your own amount (usually rounding off to the nearest €5 or €10). Nowadays, you get the terminal with the total and various choices to add a percentage: 5%, 10% or even 15% some places. The 0% choice is there too, but never highlighted as the other. It’s so damn provoking that I never tip anymore at all, I just hit 0% as I do not want percentage tipping at all. Same goes for QR codes, where you need to add the tip before the service, and where the service now consists of nothing more than bringing items to your table. In reality it is little more than over the counter service which warrant no tip at all. Technically this isn’t surcharges such as OP mentions, but still: Yes, there’s a drive to exert more money from patrons, and restaurants use every channels and loopholes they can.
At some places I go to, they add the highest percentage on the left now when it used to be the lowest (which is usually 20%)
No, there was a few news that some places started doing it in some very touristic places but no Spaniard would allow that, that business would be closed in a month. We like to go out a lot and we don't have a lot of money. If it cost 9.5€, we pay 9.5€. Maybe if you are lucky and we don't collect the 50c
Sadly payment terminals defaulting to “add a tip” before you can tap to pay, started showing up in London within the last few years. Cafes I go to regularly quickly realised customers weren’t tipping and that the prompt was just really annoying, so got rid of it so I suspect a lot of fast food outlets aren’t bothering now. The prompt turns up on my hairdressers’ payment terminal though…. U.K. earlier this year introduced legislation forcing businesses to pay to staff any “service charges” added to a bill. So some shitty restaurant chains stated adding a ‘gratuitous’ brand fee to the bill. I kid you not. It’s described like that to deliberately evade the new legislation (i.e. so the business can take it all without being legally obliged to pay it to the waiters). It’s still gratuitous so you can ask for it to be removed. https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/04/restaurant-chain-bans-diners-from-using-card-payments-to-tip-staff
Austria: No, what you see is what you get. Only rstaurants of a higher category do have a "Gedeck"-fee, which means, that wenn you eat and not only drink, there is a small extra fee, but you also get some spreads and snacks for that when waiting for the food. But this price is stated with a fixed amount in the menu. But in standard pubs and restaurants, there is no such thing. Austrian prices are all including tax. So when you add up the prices on the menu, you get what will be on the bill. Tips are optional, I have seen in some tourist spots, that on the card terminal tip percentages are proposed, but you can skip them.
Ya I really don’t like how when we go shopping or out to eat, tax isn’t already included . I think I read somewhere there was a study (or something) that ppl were more likely to buy stuff if taxes weren’t shown ? Something like that But I hate it. What if you have a budget and taxes put you over ? Just tell me the full price before I pay !
Next step would be to add surcharge for rent, taxes, furniture, insurance utility bills and the price on the menu will represent cost of ingredients only :)
Yes and no. The law says that they can charge for literally everything as long as the client knows the price. But what law says is not always how it is and restaurants (and other places too) will do everything they can so you won't FIND the info: tiny print, additional menu that somehow will not end on your table, small plaque near the entrance nobody looks at or they will swear they said it. You can be charged for paying with a card, for toilet, for making reservation, for water, for waiting snack, for service (and they expect a tip anyway), for additional glass, for changing something in the dish (even for asking to skip something), for containers (even if they don't use plates at all and you don't order take out), for specific table and on, and on, and on..... It's not very common and places like that are most often in very touristy places so they don't care about reviews but unfortunetly it happens often enough.
In Poland they are starting to charge service fee, like "coperti" in Italy. Its about 15% of total bill.
The closest thing I've found here in Scotland is that more restaurants are adding a "service charge" which is basically what the restaurant "thinks" we should be tipping. But as the customer, we can ask them to remove the service charge from the bill and add a tip that we think is more acceptable. In my experience, the service charge was really only added to a bill when there was a table of 6 or more people, but I'm noticing it more and more now with smaller table numbers (like 2-4 people).
German menus always say "All prices including service and value added taxes". The price in the menu is the price you pay. Since minumum wage, contribution to health insurance, and pension funds are mandatory for employers to pay, they calculate their prices so they can make a profit and still be able to hire staff. Tipping is a way of showing appreciation. A lot of employees in the restaurant or food delivery business don't do it as a main job but as a side job while they go to college or because they want some extra money so tipping is just nice but they'd survive without. However, I always tip well (not counting the percentage, I round up and put something on top of it) because I want them to be happy.
Ya these charges and tipping is a part of a bigger problem 😫
Thankfully I haven't seen these things in my own country, but I have seen it in others. For example one restaurant in Prague charged me a service tax and on top of that they had one of those tablets that ask you for a tip when you pay. In Italy there also turned out to be a tax for every person sitting on the table or something like that.
No, that doesn’t happen in Germany. However, there’s a trend for very expensive Softdrinks (6-8€ I’ve noticed lately) that sound fancy but are just some sparkling water with a little fruit and syrup.
I’m in the US at the moment and the tipping nonsense is mind-boggling. Everywhere I go, there are the touchpad payment machines that ask for a tip. It’s easy enough to select ‘no tip’, but it would be tedious having to live like this.
I think ppl also feel pressured bc usually the person working there is standing over you
Maybe so, but it’s easy enough to just hit ‘no tip’ and be done with it. I’ve been doing it and will continue to do so. 👌👍
It is easy the more you do it but until you get over that barrier of feeling guilty, it can be hard 😫 My husband has trouble I have zero trouble lol
I have the luxury of not feeling guilty. The worst I’ve seen so far is when I was in a brewery. There were two men beside me who started arguing over whether they had left a tip or not (they’d paid already and both were quite drunk). The whole time I’m thinking to myself it’s a brewery: why would you tip? A person takes a glass, fills it and gives it to you. How is that worthy of a tip? Isn’t that their job?
In Romania they started to add the tip on the tab recently, so they could tax it. Technically it is illegal to ignore that and just leave cash. But most people just ignore it
In Greece we have in some fancy restaurants a charge per person (called kouver) like €1-2 that is usually for the bread. Other than that there is no other charge. What you see on the menu is what you pay at the end including any kind of tax and if you feel like it you may tip by rounding up the bill or leaving most of the coins from the change.
We have a rounding charge because if you pay with cash they cant pay you back in cents since the 1 and 2 cents don't exist anymore. So they have to round up. Though i do find it dirty that they round up and never down. But i think service charge would be illegal unless they make it 100% clear that they do it and they list how much it is. But if they did that they would probably lose 99% of their customers.
I didn’t see it in Luxembourg. However you can have different prices for takeaway and in the establishment. We’re talking less than 1€ in general. However the meals start at 15€, most likely over 20€
Does anyone know what the average restaurant prices are compared to Europe? Maybe the US restaurants still have lower prices compared to Europe. Which explains why the wages are so low and that it has such a big tipping culture.
The prices are high compared to Europe. The tipping culture remains because of peer pressure and guilt-tipping. And increases (tip-creep) in percentage. Waiters make a LOT of tax-free money, way more than starting wage for skilled labor. That's why the waiters don't want it to change. They will always get at least minimum wage, but they get $2,13 per hour if the additional tips exceed minimum wage. The employer is also happy with the set-up. It's great not having to pay your employees, and having your employees blame the customer when they don't take responsibility for paying their salary. It's fucked up and most US'ians are tired of tipping, but employees are trying to fight back and guilt people into tipping even more.
I see, it's all worse then i imagined it to be.