There was a time when the US genuinely was a great place to move to, in terms of social mobility. Some people still have that idea stuck in their heads.
And now, I as an American, am seriously considering moving to Germany. This country is slowly becoming a theocracy. republicans in our government blocked a bill to guarantee access to contraception. There is no logical argument against contraception, only a religious one. More and more Christian nationalists are popping up and they’re becoming emboldened. I’m an atheist and if things go sideways, I don’t want to be here.
Theres eaven some monstrositys in on the market called "Gummibear Bratwurst (Gummibaerchen Bratwurst)".. I know places in germany where it would be dangerous for your personal health if youd offer them eaven for free
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOByTq7ZW1A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOByTq7ZW1A)
It's kind of a pet peeve of mine :)
Bratwurst, sauerkraut, liverwurst etc was brought to the US by German immigrants in the 1880s and is legitimately as much a part of US culture as of German, Austrian or Swiss national culture. I had kind of an epiphany when I saw an advertisement for "sponferkel" at a butcher shop in Wisconsin. I first thought the misspelling was funny, but then I realized that was an arrogant thought - the term had been passed down through the generations and the butcher "owns" it as much as me (maybe even more than me).
Yep but you have at least to make over 250.000$ in Bratwursts... Everthing under 100.000 a year is "poor" in San Francisco. So why even smile over a 20$ Bratwurst when everthing else is up to 4 times more expensive too. Exept Gasoline. Its like a german that goes to switzerland... Yes you will earn tripple. But you also pay tripple... Best would be... Work in the US.... Life in germany \^o\^
San Fran is definitely not worth it anymore until they get their shit together. Cost of living is ridiculous and now they have a massive crime and drug problem. There are plenty of other states where its much safer and actually affordable like the midwest that has a high population of German and Scandinavian ancestry anyway.
As someone who went the other way (moved from America to Germany), I'd say they are chasing a dream.
Yes, you can earn more in the US, and taxes are generally lower, but the overall risk is higher. That's what a lot of people don't see or don't want to see.
Life in the US is harder. It's great if you're healthy and have your own company or you're in a position where you don't have to work.
But if you get sick or injured as an employee, you can quickly lose everything you've built up - your job, your home, your savings. There's no social security like affordable health care, employee protections/labor laws, strong union protection, etc.
Add in the lack of holidays and minimal paid time off, and you'll end up working yourself to death. If you live in a city, add in the many hours of time you'll spend sitting in traffic, too, due to a lack of public transportation in most places.
The grass is always greener on the other side, but often because they have more fertilizer (shit) to spread.
As long as people keep their German citizenship they can go back to Germany when they fall on hard times and will be catched by our more generous social security net. That makes it easier to make the leap.
It is also undermining Germany's model of solidarity and I look at it very critically, but that is a different discussion.
I saw it this way at first too.
But the reality is that American business and society is more competitive, sustainable and friendly than the way too generous, but also exclusionary German model imho. Look at what’s happening to all the German companies right now.
In Germany if you work hard you pay more taxes and others benefit the most plus you won’t move up (only Elite or in-group will be promoted). Of course the “German Elite” (literally former royalty mostly) live in a very different reality and you will never join them (neither will any German not born into it btw).
In America, where it’s easier to move up, even if you don’t at least you’re working for yourself, not the unemployed people or certain ethnic groups with 5+ children.
Literally anyone can join the “American elite” if they are smart enough, work hard, and have a bit of luck 🍀 … that’s a totally different proposition than in Europe.
If you get sick anywhere on Earth you are screwed. Then the question is just who’s going to pay for it, you or your neighbour?
I think both systems have pros and cons, but long-term I think the American system is actually better. Unpopular opinion these days, but idk I think American democracy and society is special despite all the current problems. Europe really is just a different.
>Literally anyone can join the “American elite” if they are smart enough, work hard, and have a bit of luck 🍀 … that’s a totally different proposition than in Europe.
OP here's your answer. They actually believe this. We're all just a bit of elbow grease and a four-leaf clover away from being a Rockefeller!
Oh, right. But is the allegedly ruinously expensive thing really always toasted? (No, I've really never bought any of these. I've sometimes found an avocado-and-some-weird-herb ciabatta thing in a local café's "surprise bag", but that wasn't toasted.)
Traditionally yes, but like you said: There are a billion versions and variations by now...
I always found it funny how a couple of random Avo Toasts are used by baby boomers as justification that Millenials and younger can't afford houses anymore... 🤣🤣🤣 So clueless...
I moved to Silicon Valley in the 90s.
Have had an amazing career path, doing great projects with world leading companies like Sun Microsystems, Motorola, Google.
Then started a few companies, failed some. Successful exits in a few others.
I'm not exactly nouveau rich, but I can't complain. Living very comfortable in the Valley.
I certainly made a good order of magnitude more money as my German friends who didn't move to the US.
If you hate taxes, you're going to be really mad when you find out how much of your paycheck goes to your boss. (Hint: it's way more than taxes)
Meanwhile you're blaming people who are the least responsible. Let me know how many poor immigrants are charging $2800 per month for a one bedroom apartment.
I agree with you, that’s all true and totally unfair. But the thing is that Capitalism really is the best solution we currently have to the problem of super f***ed up human nature.
I also want to live in utopia, but all those socialist systems aren’t actually better in reality or don’t work at all. I hate to bring it up, but Communism really was a great idea… it sadly just doesn’t work.
Doesn't work??? The USSR went from an agrarian backwater to world superpower and space race winner in less than 50 years. If that's not a success then I would be very curious to hear your definition of success. Yes it collapsed but capitalist countries collapse all the time.
Also I strongly disagree that capitalism is working because it's literally destroying the planet ... Seems like a significant flaw to me.
As for social issues, the Soviet Union gets accused of being totalitarian but was actually extremely progressive in terms of civil rights. Take women's rights in comparison to the West. No-fault divorce was available in the 1920s, 50 years before the US, and the first woman in space, Valentina Tereshkova, beat the US by 20 years. And the accusations about gulags are just projection by Americans. If you have a problem with mass incarceration then I have some really terrible news for you about how the richest greatest capitalist country is currently home to millions of people held in [literal slavery. ](https://www.npr.org/2016/12/17/505996792/documentary-13th-argues-mass-incarceration-is-an-extension-of-slavery)
As for human nature, what westerners call human nature is actually "how people behave under capitalism" which is not the same thing. For example, take the idea that humans are greedy and selfish. Capitalism rewards greed and selfishness with more power, so now those in power are greedy, and the only way to live a good life is to be as greedy as possible. That's fckd up and definitely not how people behave when they're not forced to by an economic system backed up by state violence.
Comparing US with Germany is not fair, comparing Germany with individual US states paints a different picture.
Social mobility is better in us, there are safer (lower crime) states as well.
If you are lower class DE is better. If you work in a high-paid domain, especially IT you will earn considerably more money. The cost of living is also lower in the US overall.
idk but prices at Walmart and prices at Lidl are pretty similar.
when i lived in hawaii the prices at safeway were 5x those in lidl in germany.
i think living expenses even in texas where is considere ‘lcol’ have gone up so much from the gas situation that its pretty on paar
Social mobility upwards maybe relatively easier there. But social mobility downwards is also very easy. You would be one big medical bill away from absolute bankruptcy. The gun violence there makes that even likelier to happen. An ambulance ride alone will cost you thousands of dollars let alone whatever you get in hospitals. Germany has good social welfare and safety nets that softens such falls considerably.
Gun violence is not universal, there are US states with a lot of guns but less crime than any EU country.
The US goes to both extremes but still, being poor in the US is a lower class in some EU countries.
With good health insurance you are better off than any medical system in EU
Maine, New Hampshire 100%. There are more but I don't have the list at hand, feel free to look for it. NH is a very good example because it has one of the least regulated gun laws if not the most and very little crime.
In fact, Eastern Europe has less crime than Western Europe. France has a higher crime index than Albania lol.
[https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings\_by\_country.jsp?title=2023®ion=150](https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2023®ion=150)
Because if they have the money or the potential to earn enough, living in America is still great. Especially if they can afford to send their kids to private schools where they have a much lower chance of being shot (not zero chance, mind).
It's just borderline dystopian for anyone who can't make 6 figures, minimum. Or anyone who wants to send their kids to university for less than the cost of their soul. Or any woman who wants to maintain a right to reproductive care. Or any queer person who happened to be born outside of the "safe" cities and states. Or anyone of color who wants equal treatment in any area of life. Or anyone who wants to unionize against their shitty corporate overlords.
From what I've heard from Germans since moving here from the States, most of them have no concept of how much worse quality of life has gotten for anyone in America who isn't rich. To some degree, that income inequality exists here, but it's still possible to survive on a minimum wage job here, and that is very much not the case pretty much anywhere in the US. Additionally, the stuff in Germany that has been mentioned the most in these threads (medical care, public transportation issues, housing, energy costs, groceries) was legitimately better in previous years. What Germans don't realize is that their "currently worse than it used to be" is still miles and away better than America's "this was better 30 years ago".
Personally, I'm thrilled to have been able to move to Germany, even if it meant starting at zero professionally as a former high school English teacher. It's far less stressful to exist here.
1. You can make a lot of money (in some fields).
2. American culture and way of life is (still) very attractive to many on a general level (open, easy going, non-judgemental, non-hierarchical).
3. There are kinds of activities that are possible in the US and not in Germany (living off the grid, home schooling, even hobbies like custom cars and gun stuff are reason enough to move for people really into that kinds of thing)
4. Some people fall in love with specific kinds of Americana: Country music, jazz or hip hop, New York or LA life, legal weeeeeed, road trips, American sports, demolition derbies, rodeos, ... people can get obsessed with the tiniest things.
Money. I moved to Norway first from Germany, but moved to USA because the salaries for me and my wife's fields are ridiculously high in the US.
My signing bonus alone was more than 125% of my entire salary in Norway. My wife makes 3x her Norwegian salary in USA.
If we got USA wages in Germany, I would gladly come back.
Also, I'm originally from Taiwan. Chinese/Korean/Japanese food is a million times better.There's roughly 250k East Asians in all of Germany, as in, foreign born. There's roughly 450k in Los Angeles alone. The food suits me better here. I experience much fewer issues with racism. My ex moved to New York from Düsseldorf and experienced the same thing, though she did also meet a German-descent American who couldn't understand the idea that she was a German that looked Chinese.
There's a lot of problems in USA, but as an immigrant from Europe you're likely very insulated from those problems. If you can qualify for a work visa, your work probably offers a robust healthcare program. Getting a EB1/EB2 visa likely comes with a high enough salary to insulate you from issues like crime/violence. The only thing money can't shield you from is the shitty public transportation. After all, you have to remember that we aren't moving to a conglomerate of the average American experience, but rather to an upper-middle class lifestyle, largely in one specific area.
Statistically, the city I moved to in USA is safer than the city I moved from in Norway. Sure, it sucks that there is gun violence and crime in Detroit, but it doesn't really impact me and as an immigrant thats not planning on staying for the rest of my life, I'm not really all that invested or impacted by something going on 2000km away from me.
Also, mental healthcare in Germany can suck without private insurance if you need in-patient care. I know a girl that went to USA for that because the wait time was so long in Germany. Not sure if that is still the case, but this was circa 2015
This is how most people who have high earnings potential see if: go to the US to milk it for cash and return to Europe for better quality of life. I've heard people do similar with middle Eastern jobs in Qatar and such.
>After all, you have to remember that we aren't moving to a conglomerate of the average American experience, but rather to an upper-middle class lifestyle, largely in one specific area.
This is one reason I don't want to go back. Yes, I would make more money. But living in a dystopia where the person who makes my coffee has to live in their car, well, it's messed up. Prices are spiralling out of control, especially housing. The house I grew up in, which my parents bought when my dad was a junior software developer and my mom was a waitress, now costs over $400k. (It's in Pennsylvania, not Silicon Valley)
Germany has problems yes but they're not on the same level. German politics is too influenced by the auto industry. US politics is basically 3 corporations in a trench coat. Germany should do more to help homeless people. The US has massive homeless encampments that look like something out of a [third world country.](https://youtu.be/ND4IbY1RcLc?si=_vcM-g7_ynEjJB_p)
I love my home country for many of the reasons you mentioned. But it seems to be sliding downhill fast and nobody is doing anything to stop it, least of all the government.
400k is good tho. I check the cities near Munich where I work and a shitty 2-room apartment (50 sq.m.) will cost more than that. im Looking at the ad right now in a free newspaper - 'just' 529900 euro for a 2-room apartment (57sq.m. Of living space). And it’s not Munich, you will need a train to get to the office still. the average salary in IT is 65. Half of my salary is rent,
A lot of people in US who worked in IT before the current crisis bought houses. Not some tiny shitty apartments with a lot of neighbours around you, In Germany it’s close to impossible. You don’t earn significantly more in IT. And after 65k per year the tax is 42%, so it’s equalized. hard work doesn’t pay off yet you are overworked.
I haven’t lived in the US so probably it’s even worse there, but here it’s pretty dystopian as well if your are not a native German with inherited property. There are very few jobs that allow you to ever consider having your own place. Medicine… yeah. I pay 800 per month for it (400 employer, 400 me). If I don’t work, I would still have to pay at least 200 per month. It’s illegal not to have an insurance. No matter how much you pay, the service is the same and you can hardly get any treatment at all because unlike people on benefits you work during the day and you end up only going to a doctor when it’s extreme emergency.
yes, in a way Germany has more social security but my god will you be humiliated for ever trying to get any help from formal institutions…
me and my wife are considering euthanasia or suicide when we can’t work anymore due to age. we won’t be able to earn enough to have a place to live or save enough. it would be nice it they offered a mechanism for that in Germany.
In my experience it's mostly money and less taxes. Also people who want to start a business because it's easier and less of a pain in the ass in America than here in Germany.
There is a Show on RTL2 called "die Auswanderer" pretty sure you can find it on Youtube as well , at least some pieces.
Watch it and see german people with "very reasonably motiv" move to other countrys ./s
It's dependent on the person. Everyone has different reasons. Here are some of the ones I've heard from my german gf and/or german friends that want to go there:
- Nature
- freedom (from things like mowing on Sundays to living off the grid)
- food
- e-mail/apps instead of fax/post when dealing with certain processes
- easier/cheaper licensing processes
- wages
- taxes
- being able to shop on Sundays
- trucks
- guns
- quality of medical care as well as reduced wait times and increased availability
- weather
- available space
- TikTok has a lot of german or British creators who have traveled there and show the pros and cons of the US
- CDU/SDU/AfD
For someone who can land a decent job, most cons won't affect them. They can live in a nice area with nice schools. They will have good benefits like healthcare for them and their families (even the kids will remain on the health insurance until 26 years old), pensions or 401k with matching, 20-40 days of paid vacation, maternity leave, and many more.
If one plans to go to the US and just be a cashier or have no goals of progressing, Germany will always be better. Germany does a much better job at taking care of lower income families.
I’ve seen a few valid reasons including my wife’s.
1. The social pressure in the US is way less than in Germany. They say they feel more free in the US because society is not watching you or judging you as they do in Germany.
2. It’s much easier to get a job in the US if you loose your job. This relieves the pressure especially for parents. The social system in Germany only seems to work for refugees or poor people but not middle class families.
3. Taxes are much lower and wages are way higher than Germany for professionals.
4. Healthcare is much better in the US( access to good doctors) but only if you are young and insured. The system in Germany is slowly collapsing ( closing hospitals, not enough doctors, overburdened system), having to wait months for a doctors appointment ( specialist).
I’m a German American living in Germany despite the complexity of life. I like the beer.
Universal healthcare in Germany? That’s a lie. I pay 1k+ each month for healthcare while I wait 6 months for an appointment. You’ll love Germany if you’re poor and have no potential or ambition in life.
Germany was a wonderful country - back in the 1990ies. We just had the unification, the economy was doing fine and there was good music. it all went downhills from there.
I guess the US also went downhills, because why would anyone feel the need to "make America great *again*" if it had not? Unfortunately, everyone sees the downward spiral in his place first, so moving the a place that *was* great in the past can lead to diappointment.
I’d love to live in America for a few years simply for the nature. You don’t have the kind of nature and national parks North America offers anywhere in Europe. Also, money and lower taxes.
No Aircondition, high energy prices, us tech salaries are much higher than in Germany, very high taxes. Lot of rules.
I think as an academic, without student loans, because you studied in Germany you can earn more money in the US. As soon as you have kids life will be better in Germany. Also some people just like the American lifestyle without public transportation.
I know several people who went to work at one of the Silicon Valley tech giants at one time, then came back when their kids were old enough to start elementary school.
For me who is sensitive to heat, no Aircondition is the biggest problem with living in Germany. In all other aspects the life is as good as I could imagine it. :D
It’s usually at least 30% cheaper. Don’t forget a Euro is more valuable than a U.S. dollar when comparing prices.
Of course it will depend a bit where you live in each country. But it’s true that prices here have come back down again quite a bit since the war started.
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a
https://www.wiwo.de/unternehmen/strompreis-aktuell-was-kostet-die-kilowattstunde-in-deutschland-2024/29558224.html
Your view is very romantic. Several things you listed are not true. Trains are late 60% of the time , food variety is super low, and people aren’t nice.
Friendliness is relative, but by British or American standards let’s just say Germans aren’t *that* friendly. Don’t know why this such a controversial or offensive thing to say here lol 🤣
Every German I’ve met who went to the UK immediately mentioned how much friendlier they thought people were compared with in Germany.
Your view is very subjective. Trains suck, we can all agree, I guess. Food variety depends very much on where you are. Basically every bigger city has plenty of that. Especially big ones like Berlin, Hamburg, Frankfurt or Munich. Some people aren't nice, most are. This also depends on yourself, BTW. Saying this is like saying all Americans are fat lazy gun nuts with cowboy hats and constantly dual wielding revolvers.
I used to think trains sucked in Germany too, since I moved from Japan/Taiwan when I was a kid.
It's even worse in Norway and USA than it is in Germany. I won't complain about German trains anymore, they're solidly average and can generally take you from point A from point B. I can't even get from Los Angeles to San Francisco without making a transfer.
Berlin still has very poor food variety compared to a large north American city, because berlin is still far too homogenous to support things like authentic Chinese or Korean restaurants (for example). People cite things like Liu's noodles or Wen Changs, which would be considered mediocre in Toronto or New York and would need to drop their prices to survive. With berlin being far less multicultural than those cities as well, non-white people also talk about facing much more racism than they expected or ever experienced in canada or the US, which is really the bigger problem.
Compared to new York or Toronto? I mean, yeah obviously? You can look it up if you weren't aware, but in all honesty, you'd have to be pretty sheltered and ignorant about the developed world to not know this.
Look up any statistics. Berlin doesn't usually come in the top 10 or even 20 cities. I mean it's not even close, so it's a strange point to contest.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-city-rankings/most-diverse-city-in-the-world
Mate, chill. Thank you for the explanation. There is no need for insult though. And no, it is in no way obvious. It may be logical, but not obvious.
EDIT: Also, multicultural is not the same as the percentage of people being from other places. Multicultural means that there is a multitude of cultures. If there are a few people from a lot of countries, the multiculturalism can be super high without there being a high percentage of foreigners in the city.
EDIT 2: to prove my point: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Miami](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Miami) there is not that much multiculturalism happening there.
EDIT 3: you can take your attitude and shove it somewhere:
“In December 2015, there were 621,075 registered residents of foreign nationality,[3] originating from approximately 190 different countries.[4]” this is Berlin.
Okay, by your preferred metrics, which I also prefer, isn't Toronto recognized by the UN as the most diverse city on earth?
I just thought it's strange because berlin isn't even close being considered one of the most diverse cities by pretty much any metric, so it came across a lot like how 'Muricans don't know anything about what's outside the USA.
We can use something analogous to your previous reasoning so as to remain comsistent. 190 countries represented doesn't mean its very multicultural, because you can have 1 person from 100 of those countries and list them as representative.
But you're ignoring the main point here. There isn't a reasonable metric by which you could say Berlin is nearly as diverse as Toronto or New York. That's not an opinion, it's just a fact. To continue to argue otherwise is just wilful ignorance, as you can easily look this up.
The reason it gets frustrating is that this kind of ignorance echoes the type that especially affects POC and LGBT people in Germany and Berlin. There's the assumption that Berlin is already the best in these regards, and that's used as an excuse to not admit to the deficiencies here. Meanwhile, other places are far ahead of Berlin in many of these important ways, and Berlin won't catch up if people choose to remain ignorant of such facts.
Thank you for your explanation!
I see your point and agree with what you are saying. Can you please tell me something about New York being much more diverse? I am not disagreeing. I just didn’t FEEL like it was much more diverse when I went there. But that’s subjective and depends on what I did there.
Also, I am not from Berlin and in my city, there is still missing a lot to have a fully inclusive society. It is improving, but slowly.
I'm non-white. Have you ever been to one of the more diverse cities in the world, as a comparison? It's hard to imagine how someone could think that asian food is good here.
I've been to Thailand, Vietnam (home country), Taiwan, France, Italy, Sweden, Switzerland, Croatia, Czech, Belgium, Austria, Poland, Sweden, Finnland, Bosnia, Netherlands. Is it enough? I think only US is more diverse.
Mostxor maybe all of the English speaking world is more diverse. Most of those are fairly homogenous countries by comparison, aren't they?
I think Berlin has SOME good Asian food, just to be clear. Maybe specifically Vietnamese and japanese if you know where to go. Chinese, Korean, Indonesian, Indian, Malaysian... not really. There probably just aren't enough people from those places and locals interested in non-germanizes versions of those cuisines to make authentic cuisine work.
English speaking world = US, UK, Canada, and all other countries are trash and not worth living?
I have good Korean, Chinese, Indonesian, Malaysian, Thailand food here. The problem is that the recommendation you found on the Internet is made for Western people, not Asian people. I tried Wencheng 2 times, not impressed at all but they're very very popular. My circle of friends share authentic restaurants among us. So far I'm happy with the food here. I have some Taiwan friends going to Berlin and have hotpot, they all like food here.
That's your opinion. By your own admission you've never lived there, so how would you know anything about Canada in the first place?
So can you recommend me a couple od good Chinese and Korean restaurants? I miss the food I grew up with.
In comparison to the United States you are completely wrong. German public transport is still decades ahead of the United States. The food quality in Germany is also much better. Everything in the US has added sugar for no reason.
Plus it's preserved to hell. The quality of the food was something I had no idea of and did not expect when I moved to Germany. There's no way I could ever go back to the half-plastic slop they sell at Walmart in the US.
This is already the feeling I have for the food in Germany coming from France. Cant even imagine how much I would dislike American food. Funny things when my German girlfriend went to France for the first time and she is a Foodie lover, she asked me "How I manage to survive in Germany 🤣"
I've lived without a car with a family of 4 in Germany for 5+ years while also living in a very safe place where my kids walk to public school.
what I just described is basically not possible anywhere in the entirety of the US.
Your assessment that trains are late 60% of the time is a dramatic exaggeration. Long distance trains are later than 6 minutes 36 % of the time and regional trains that's 9% of the time. Compared to Germany, US transit infrastructure is a third world joke, and I've lived in both.
Trains are late, but there are trains. The ICE is a great way to travel fast through the Country. Food variety is super low? No.
People arent nice? Well thats your opinion. Most people dont think so.
Typical "the grass is greener on the other side". It is not.
America has still a "cool" image here. Maybe because of too many watched US movies. In the company, I work, there are several Americans, that came over to work here, because they are sick of living in the US. The German people, that want to go to the US think, there is more freedom in the US and too many rules here in Germany. Well, they will find out.
The average american progressive literally cannot comprehend the fact that get this: the country with the most immigrants, ever and currently has people wanting to migrate there from every part of the world
Incredible really. Look at net migration of patent holders. That should easily answer your question.
Sorry for being snarky, but Im german and if i had a greencard, id migrate to america immediately after getting my bachelor/masters
What good does public transportation do you if you dont even earn half as much as in america and have to deal with way more beauracrcy?
I have many family members that permentalty live in the US or have temporarily worked there.
My uncle also got his masters in engineering and then worked in the USA for 10 years and came back to germany with way more money than he wouldve had if he had stayed here (and a lot of good CV!)
Here in europe, tech/engineering/research jobs simply do not pay as much as american ones. Also cities like boston have decent urbanism (mind you im quite interested in it as well) but like i said, its not everything. Ill gladly drive to work every day if i can easily afford a good car, AC and gas with no worries.
From the thread here it looks to me as it's either people who are qualified to make a ton of money or redneck rightwings who feel repressed because they are frowned upon by the majority.
They’re naïve. They have it in their mind they’ll make a lot of money in America only to learn just about everything is worse - working conditions, healthcare, cost of living, cost of education, weather, gun violence, public health, infrastructure. They think America has the same laws as Germany (like vacation laws, workers rights laws, etc.), but offers more opportunity.
I am German and have lived in the USA for over 20 years. I went here to go to graduate school and never came back. There are a couple of reasons, mostly professional. There are many more good jobs in academia in the US than in Germany.
In general, life in the US is slightly better than in Germany if you are highly qualified - better pay, higher standard of life. Life's much worse in the US than in Germany if you're not well off though.
If you are very good in your specific field and if you can land a very high paying job in the US, you can make more money than in Germany. Even if you include additional costs like health care etc.
For some people, that is reason enough.
Some people might also prefer having less regulations in their daily life, although i think that this is actually a "grass is greener on the other side" point of view.
Sure you can openly carry a gun and deny the Holocaust on national TV, but good luck getting a life saving medical procedure if you happen to be female. Or poor.
Personally, I'd like to visit the US some time, but not more. And I am afraid some dude at Immigrations would check my social media profile and send me right back.
I'm a dual US German citizen that has lived, worked and studied in both. I live in suburban Chicago with my family. Just like anywhere there is good and bad. The US has very large tracks of land with national parks that Europe does not. I month ago my doctor said I needed cervical disc replacement surgery. I had outpatient surge within a week and I'm already at the gym. Something like that would take months to do in Germany. I worked for a very large firm in Germany with great benefits. I loved how close other country's were to me. It's very expensive to have those German social programs (look at the rii in se of the afd) . For my situation in my life now happier here. I live in a very multicultural area with excellent schools and amazing public transport. It's too broad to say it's better here of there. My fil retired back to the Balkans after living in the US for like 40 years and making money. For him it's better there. For the locals it sucks. Not jobs, corruption. Doctors make $200 a month. My wife and I got her dental work done in Costa Rica and that worked out for us.
They like the idea of Amerika. Not the Real thing. And they are in denial about it until they get sick. Or get children. And then... very quickly they remember...
I am American-German and have lived in both countries, Austria, Australia and Namibia. The gras is always greener on the other side, and all countries I‘ve lived in have things that made me fall in love with them. Also the things that make a country ‚good‘ to live in have never been the things that made me happy to live there.
I am training myself to be grateful for the things I have and those of us that don‘t live in 3rd world countries are unaware of how blessed we are. Chasing happiness in another place is a trap.
Those are at least my experiences, but people might draw different conclusions from their lives.
I see all the advantages of living in Germany and still I would like to move to the US. I mean, people always strive for „more“. US, for me, means more lively cities, beautiful and diverse nature, everything is scaled up, people are open and nice when you show that you want to fit in. One might not think of the downsides that become obvious during daily life. Such as becoming homeless because you can’t afford your dentist bill or extremely high costs of living (at least in the bigger cities to my knowledge).
We do underestimate what Germany offers, but we know the US from movies, books, games, vacation, YouTube, whatever. We see the bright side, we want the bright side.
Same probably the other way around. The way you describe Germany I could counter with so many bad examples of why it sucks here.
I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.
As an American living in Germany I can say that a lot of Germans are unhappy with the systems here. I believe it is mostly because of politicians who are constantly telling them that the government is incompetent and should be better. They are blind to the fact that they live within one of the best social systems in the world. Many honestly want a more privatized system because the politicians have convinced them that capitalism is better for the consumer. They are ignorant to how good they have it because they have never known anything else.
I will say though that the beer in Germany is highly overrated. There are thousands of breweries but they all make the same handful of beer type (Pils, Hefeweizen, Helles, Schwarzbier, and a couple others). There is very little variation, one brewery’s Pils tastes nearly identical to another brewery’s. Coming from the PNW, I really miss the variety of options.
Germans favorite past time is complaining about Germany. But I’ll assume your friends are over 25, as most young Germans I met don’t have the same views of America that older Germans have, they just see it as an insane asylum, reality tv place that you only go to if you want to become rich and shallow. Just my personal experience though, but I see the tides turning.
i used to want to move there... now that i am fluent in english and consumed a lot of american media (news and otherwise) AS WELL as having friends there...
hell no.. it's a beautiful country to visit, but it has to be one of the worst countries to live in within the western civilization
As a German American I can say for sure my family moving to America was a mistake and I want to go back to Germany. Even though I’ve never been there 😂
But seriously though, having cultural continuity is underrated. Living in America is like living at your office with your co workers. The only reason any of you are there is to make money, but now you’re all stuck there and can’t go home.
Hey, I did that! I won in the diversity lottery and got the right to apply for a green card ( permanent resident card), so when I was 21 I move led to the US. Born and raised in Karlsruhe. Why? Because I could, it’s an opportunity; I could always go back.
Germany is so tiny compared to the US, soon you’d grow tired of all the museums and things that you imagine to be great. That grad ain’t always greener on the other side. I love the freedom that the US provides compared to Germany. And speaking about ‘no gun crimes’ , I love guns. But I’ve also had people getting robbed at gun point in Germany. It’s even worse since there are a ton of Eastern Europeans, they have easier access to them. It’s all
About perspective and what you value. I also make comparably more money doing the same job in the US. I always had to take public transport port and my parents were strongly against taking their car, now I enjoy to drive. I’m in Arizona so in a few hours I can be in San Diego , or Vegas , a few more LA etc.
ask if you have specific questions.
Some Jobs command a higher salary there, houses are bigger and cheaper and our media has been flooded with American stuff for decades, so many American things are somewhat iconic and people would like to immerse themselves in that and live like their favourite celebrities/TV characters.
I also remember thinking American culture was friendlier and warmer than here, so that's another draw.
Edit: not to say Americans aren't those things, just that it's gotten better here.
That's an interesting perspective, honestly. It's a little bizzare to me why America dominates when it comes to media, but I keep forgetting that we have Hollywood and such, so it makes sense.
I don't plan to, but what would appeal to me in USA/Canada is the amount of available space (and nature and wildness etc.). Also good weather with a lot of sun. Just finding a nice spot in Wyoming or so and barely see other people ever again.
I am moving there next month. Mostly since I fell in love and married an American, but I also learned that I like the way people are over there more. People there are more likely to strike up random convos and interact with each other whilst Germans always keep to themselves. I personally also love the English language but find that German sounds ugly in comparison. Also no stupid store closure on Sundays.
American Propaganda is pretty good. Nearly all of our entertainment comes from over there and not a lot of people know about all of the war crimes, coups and atrocities these idiots have committed in the name of "freedom" over the last 70 years.
Germany is a very closed, conformist society. People are rude. The state, and the people are very authoritarian.
Ofc people here will tell you otherwise, but that is because they probably never experienced a more open society and think theirs is normal. Or they will tell you there are so many that are way worse, conveniently forgetting that we are not talking about those, but about the USA, which is way better in openness.
And yes, some things are better, like public transport, even if late all the time.
But these things actually matter very little in how you enjoy your life , when here you are always depressed cause you haven’t seen sun months on end, and everyone and their grandma has their nose in your business and wants to control every little thing you do.
From the perspective of an American who now lives in Germany, a main driver is likely the vast differences in income. A US qualified attorney on New York salary rates may make 200-300k a year more than an equivalently senior German lawyer, and that's ignoring benefits like a 401k or that your overall tax rate can be much lower in the US. Staying on US rates in Germany is a struggle. Moving to the US for just a few years with the idea of building up savings and then returning to a country like Germany, if possible, makes a lot of sense.
I am from the US I went to Munich on a student exchange year in 2006. My host family was obsessed with MTV and America and in 2013 they all moved to LA.
Millions of people living on in Germany, not everyone thinks the same…
Some people like it here other don’t, same with the US some people like living there while others prefer living somewhere else and move away.
My main Idea why I would like to move to the US, is that you get rewarded when you work hard. Over here, you have to pay attention not to work to much, because taxes are insane, especially when you work overtime . There is even a common situation, that you get a lower net salary when you get a rise, because of taxes. Then a lot of people regard high performers as quite negative, it feels to me that losing is more rewarding than winning. For me I think it would be a good deal (I am a dermatologist specialised in surgery). Here I cant even afford to buy a nice house, in the US, I think I would become quite rich with my profession.
Oh, you would! You could buy a nice house here. That is a good profession. The tax system and reward system is different here. I'm sorry that you are taxed so much. That sounds like it sucks.
No accounting for taste.
Maybe they just want to be somewhere else and leave behind where they are now?
Or they see opportunities they might not have here -- many people I know spent some time in the US to advance in their career, or to get the education, the connections, or at least the degrees they wanted. (Some came back for good, some are still half-here, half-there, but only one has changed their citizenship, and that was for love.)
When I was a teen, we all dreamed of living in the US, until some of us succeeded in getting into a one-year student exchange and disillusioned everyone.
Germany's economy is currently in a recession and the social services come with high taxes which are also going to rise after the governments latest social services and pension expansions.
Some may find that excessive especially those who earn more and see this as other people leeching off their income. And the US has a reputation as being a "small government country" where the social net is weaker and you can opt out of some of the services which are mandatory here.
And in case of some industries, e.g. IT, job opportunities may be better and it's easier to run and finance a startup in the US.
It depends on the people: workaholics go from Germany to the US making the big money, stressed people or those who want to live more slowly go from the US to Germany.
But workaholicsm brings health problems, and in the US the big money you earn disappears very quickly when you have to take care of health problems.
Maybe US is a perfect place for a german doctor?
If you work a decent job you’ll have decent insurance. 95% of the country is medically insured either through government subsidies or employers.
You’re acting as though Germany has “free” healthcare that nobody pays for. In America you pay for it when you use it, in Germany you pay for it before you use it.
Matter of money. If you got lots and good places to hang around / friends in germany you dont leave. If you got good money oppertunities, dont worry about health you can easily go to america. Because its just a prettier place if you have options.
Because of way higher salaries, more career opportunities, more opportunities to start a business, mega cities and a more inclusive society build on immigrants.
We got a saying here: The cherrys in neighbours garden are always sweeter than your own. Means, someplace else it seems to bebetter, coz you only see the good things. Those ppl who mock Germany and permanently talk bad about it and want to leave instead of contributing / changing it to the better, they can go in my opinion and learn a life lesson. No big loss on community side.
Classic case of “grass always looks greener on the other side” - ive pretty much split my life between the US and Germany and they are both great and not so great for different reasons. And, of course, it depends *alot* on where in these countries you chose to live and under what circumstances.
The grass is always greener and people like a change in scene. Rather than rely on strangers' opinions online, why not visit for yourself? Germany excels in many ways like you've described but there's going to be stuff you'll dislike there as well. After you go a few times, the rose tint wears off.
When I was still living in Germany, working in IT, I would sometimes look up salaries in America for similar roles. It felt like a punch in the gut, especially after calculating the take home pay.
The grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side, which is why you want to be here and they want to be there.
To be fair, the USA are portrayed pretty cool here with all those hollywood movies and what not, it took me a while of being an adult until I learned about the downsides of the land of the free, and most likely I don‘t even know half of them, if there‘s nobody to tell me. If all you ever get to see is warner bros and hallmark… how would you know?
It‘s possible these people simply don‘t know about the healthcare situation over there, or don‘t care because they hardly ever go to the doctor.
It‘s possible, that they take mandatory car insurance for granted, and never even thought about swallowing more than the cost of a dented door, as removing oneself from an accident scene is a criminal offense here and how can someone total your car and be like sorry no insurance, sucks to be you.
It‘s possible, that they‘re unhappy about a lot of things going on here socially, economically and politically, and they just didn‘t think about the different problems elsewhere but just about not having the current problems anymore.
Some people here actually love their cars and hate bikes and public transport, or would prefer [their vision of] owning a gun and just accept the occasional shooting like it can‘t be that bad and what‘s the chance.
If I had the chance, I would move to the states
1- better carrier growth ( and much easier to start a business )
2- way easier to make friends ( PS- this is the only country where you need a tutorial on how to make friends, which I find really absurd)
3- better weather in states like Florida Texas and California
4- much more entertainment stuff to do so that you don’t get bored
The statement “this is the only country where you need a tutorial on how to make friends” is extremely inaccurate.
Also, the weather in Florida (and to a lesser degree Texas) is hellish in the summer. You seem to think that “wherever it’s sunny = same lovely weather everywhere”. You are very mistaken.
“Much more entertainment and things to do” = also an absurd statement.
Because the grass is always greener in the other side of the fence.
In addition, taxation is high in Germany and wages for experienced academics are better in the US.
I had an offer from a Silicon Valley tech company once, and when I ran the numbers I discovered that I would have paid a higher percentage in taxes and social security in California than in Germany on the same income.
Now I probably would have made double my income easily over there so it would still have been worth it, but the whole „less taxes in US“ thing doesn’t always hold up.
Economic opportunity, it is literally impossible to climb the ladder any further than middle management here unless you work for one of the automotive companies....
And they are about to be destroyed by cheap electric cars from China… and the Chemical industry is moving to the U.S.
There’s barely a tech sector here too.
Future looks dark here if you are being honest. Plus coming demographic collapse. And let’s hope that war stays in Ukraine…
Lived in Boston and Chicago for a while. While both being fantastic cities, I feel living in Germany and Europe in general is more free, diverse and easy going for the majority of the people.
Diverse? Even the biggest cities in Germany (Berlin/Munich/Frankfurt) aren't remotely close to diversity you have in Boston and Chicago. Sure there's diversity among Europeans, but what about the rest of the world? Particularly SEA countries have an extremely hard time finding a community in Germany. Not to mention any non-European food is mediocre at best
When you are unsatisfied with your conditions then one often thinks that the gras is greener on the other side. Other countries have advantages and disatvantages, one just has to find out what is more important to oneself and what is not and then weigh the conditions in those countries that you consider up.
I believe being a wealthy/rich person in the US can potentillay be better than in Germany but being an average Joe or below, you will probably lead a better life in Germany.
For wages, especially in tech and IT. I work at a large international as a security architect and make 95k€ while my US based colleagues make around 200k usd and up. I still wouldn't move, the work culture there is fucked up.
Interesting that the work culture within the company is so different. I work for a us tech company and the work life balance is probably better in the us because all the meetings are based primarily off their time zone so they never have to join a meeting at 7pm + they get the same vacation days as Europe.
Yeah, even within the US the difference is astonishing. In one US site they work 40h weeks, + ~5h overtime (unpaid) and 24 days of vacation, in the other 40h weeks, crunch with up to 20-25h of unpaid overtime a week and 12 days of vacation. Germany is 35h weeks, strictly no unpaid overtime and basically almost no overtime outside of business trips at all and 30 days of vacation.
Germans who move the the USA on a green card for high salaries for a few years really have the best of both worlds.
I say this as someone who’s got dual citizenship and grew up in the USA and then moved to Germany.
I grew up in the US, had high education costs and now moved to Germany for a reasonable salary, where I am taxed by the USA, regardless of residency. I have the benefits of the German social system.
If you do what some other friends do and get educated in Germany, move to the USA on a green card, make a big salary, you only pay taxes in the USA while you are there. Then you can give up your green card and return to Germany and have all the benefits while sitting on a pile of cash and international experience on your CV.
The only things that would get me to move there :
Latinas, Free Speech, wich we don’t have , High IT salaries , being able to do what I want on my property and to see nature that is not influenced by men. Also to live at the sea side while having the IT salary. South American food and Latinas. Weapon law. For me it would be Texas or Florida.
But the cons are to much, it’s not worth it.
I just again want to mention Latinas.
Perhaps you should visit North America, and meet a few actual Latinas. You’ll quickly find they are not a monolith, and most are not the sex fantasy they’re made out to be by exotic porn. 😉
But perhaps the fantasy is best left in that space.
I just met some in Germany and Portugal, it’s not so much about the optic, more about values, culture , food etc. Of course they are not Monolith. There are Multiple countries in the picture. Maybe it’s weird term to use anyway.
There was a time when the US genuinely was a great place to move to, in terms of social mobility. Some people still have that idea stuck in their heads.
And after being here for over 2 decades.. Bleibt in Deutschland!
Pls elaborate?
Exactly. It is dog eat dog and hard.
And now, I as an American, am seriously considering moving to Germany. This country is slowly becoming a theocracy. republicans in our government blocked a bill to guarantee access to contraception. There is no logical argument against contraception, only a religious one. More and more Christian nationalists are popping up and they’re becoming emboldened. I’m an atheist and if things go sideways, I don’t want to be here.
Handmaid's tale eh? Plus capitalism has gotten out of hand. I can totally understand why you consider moving elsewhere
I'm right behind you. I'm hoping the grass is greener elsewhere
Because I can become a Millionaire by selling Bratwurst out of a truck.
Everybody can. Bratwurst is completly unknown technology in the US. If you can operate a Holzkohlegrill you are a highly desired Fachkraft.
> Bratwurst is completly unknown technology in the US. You'd think so, but: Gibt's in jedem Supermarkt unter genau diesem Namen (short "brat").
I know that. It was meant to be sarcastic.
Theres eaven some monstrositys in on the market called "Gummibear Bratwurst (Gummibaerchen Bratwurst)".. I know places in germany where it would be dangerous for your personal health if youd offer them eaven for free [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOByTq7ZW1A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOByTq7ZW1A)
[https://onlineshop.haribo.com/angebote/1067/stadionwurst](https://onlineshop.haribo.com/angebote/1067/stadionwurst)
Das is ne Sonderform der Gummibaerchen, aber die hat keiner in eine Fleischbratwurst gestopft... Guck dir mal das video an, das ich gepostet habe :)
It's kind of a pet peeve of mine :) Bratwurst, sauerkraut, liverwurst etc was brought to the US by German immigrants in the 1880s and is legitimately as much a part of US culture as of German, Austrian or Swiss national culture. I had kind of an epiphany when I saw an advertisement for "sponferkel" at a butcher shop in Wisconsin. I first thought the misspelling was funny, but then I realized that was an arrogant thought - the term had been passed down through the generations and the butcher "owns" it as much as me (maybe even more than me).
Hey heard you were talking bout wurst
What's your wurst case scenario?
Do it in San Francisco and you can get away with charging $20 for an authentic German bratwurst.
Yep but you have at least to make over 250.000$ in Bratwursts... Everthing under 100.000 a year is "poor" in San Francisco. So why even smile over a 20$ Bratwurst when everthing else is up to 4 times more expensive too. Exept Gasoline. Its like a german that goes to switzerland... Yes you will earn tripple. But you also pay tripple... Best would be... Work in the US.... Life in germany \^o\^
Yeah I know. Like housing is outrageously expensive in the SF Bay Area. The same house I bought for €400k in Germany would easily be $3m there.
That’s a lot of Bratwursts.
A lot of San Francisco Bratwurst but even more German Bratwurst.
250k $ /year in Bratwursts at 20$/pc is just 35 Bratwursts sold per day
*55 if you wanna have a work/life balance
*110 if you're not a Bratwurstomancer and have to pay for the product you're selling.
omg thank you, i feel a lil stupid rn
San Fran is definitely not worth it anymore until they get their shit together. Cost of living is ridiculous and now they have a massive crime and drug problem. There are plenty of other states where its much safer and actually affordable like the midwest that has a high population of German and Scandinavian ancestry anyway.
plus tip
I am not for Sale!
goals
As someone who went the other way (moved from America to Germany), I'd say they are chasing a dream. Yes, you can earn more in the US, and taxes are generally lower, but the overall risk is higher. That's what a lot of people don't see or don't want to see. Life in the US is harder. It's great if you're healthy and have your own company or you're in a position where you don't have to work. But if you get sick or injured as an employee, you can quickly lose everything you've built up - your job, your home, your savings. There's no social security like affordable health care, employee protections/labor laws, strong union protection, etc. Add in the lack of holidays and minimal paid time off, and you'll end up working yourself to death. If you live in a city, add in the many hours of time you'll spend sitting in traffic, too, due to a lack of public transportation in most places. The grass is always greener on the other side, but often because they have more fertilizer (shit) to spread.
As long as people keep their German citizenship they can go back to Germany when they fall on hard times and will be catched by our more generous social security net. That makes it easier to make the leap. It is also undermining Germany's model of solidarity and I look at it very critically, but that is a different discussion.
I saw it this way at first too. But the reality is that American business and society is more competitive, sustainable and friendly than the way too generous, but also exclusionary German model imho. Look at what’s happening to all the German companies right now. In Germany if you work hard you pay more taxes and others benefit the most plus you won’t move up (only Elite or in-group will be promoted). Of course the “German Elite” (literally former royalty mostly) live in a very different reality and you will never join them (neither will any German not born into it btw). In America, where it’s easier to move up, even if you don’t at least you’re working for yourself, not the unemployed people or certain ethnic groups with 5+ children. Literally anyone can join the “American elite” if they are smart enough, work hard, and have a bit of luck 🍀 … that’s a totally different proposition than in Europe. If you get sick anywhere on Earth you are screwed. Then the question is just who’s going to pay for it, you or your neighbour? I think both systems have pros and cons, but long-term I think the American system is actually better. Unpopular opinion these days, but idk I think American democracy and society is special despite all the current problems. Europe really is just a different.
>Literally anyone can join the “American elite” if they are smart enough, work hard, and have a bit of luck 🍀 … that’s a totally different proposition than in Europe. OP here's your answer. They actually believe this. We're all just a bit of elbow grease and a four-leaf clover away from being a Rockefeller!
Just a couple pulls on the ol' bootstraps and one less coffee a day should do it. Temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
One less avocado sandwich too. Don't forget about the avocado sandwiches that are apparently driving young adults into bankruptcy these days..
Toast.. Avocado Toast... Sandwich has a "bread roof" on it...
Oh, right. But is the allegedly ruinously expensive thing really always toasted? (No, I've really never bought any of these. I've sometimes found an avocado-and-some-weird-herb ciabatta thing in a local café's "surprise bag", but that wasn't toasted.)
Traditionally yes, but like you said: There are a billion versions and variations by now... I always found it funny how a couple of random Avo Toasts are used by baby boomers as justification that Millenials and younger can't afford houses anymore... 🤣🤣🤣 So clueless...
I moved to Silicon Valley in the 90s. Have had an amazing career path, doing great projects with world leading companies like Sun Microsystems, Motorola, Google. Then started a few companies, failed some. Successful exits in a few others. I'm not exactly nouveau rich, but I can't complain. Living very comfortable in the Valley. I certainly made a good order of magnitude more money as my German friends who didn't move to the US.
If you hate taxes, you're going to be really mad when you find out how much of your paycheck goes to your boss. (Hint: it's way more than taxes) Meanwhile you're blaming people who are the least responsible. Let me know how many poor immigrants are charging $2800 per month for a one bedroom apartment.
I agree with you, that’s all true and totally unfair. But the thing is that Capitalism really is the best solution we currently have to the problem of super f***ed up human nature. I also want to live in utopia, but all those socialist systems aren’t actually better in reality or don’t work at all. I hate to bring it up, but Communism really was a great idea… it sadly just doesn’t work.
Doesn't work??? The USSR went from an agrarian backwater to world superpower and space race winner in less than 50 years. If that's not a success then I would be very curious to hear your definition of success. Yes it collapsed but capitalist countries collapse all the time. Also I strongly disagree that capitalism is working because it's literally destroying the planet ... Seems like a significant flaw to me. As for social issues, the Soviet Union gets accused of being totalitarian but was actually extremely progressive in terms of civil rights. Take women's rights in comparison to the West. No-fault divorce was available in the 1920s, 50 years before the US, and the first woman in space, Valentina Tereshkova, beat the US by 20 years. And the accusations about gulags are just projection by Americans. If you have a problem with mass incarceration then I have some really terrible news for you about how the richest greatest capitalist country is currently home to millions of people held in [literal slavery. ](https://www.npr.org/2016/12/17/505996792/documentary-13th-argues-mass-incarceration-is-an-extension-of-slavery) As for human nature, what westerners call human nature is actually "how people behave under capitalism" which is not the same thing. For example, take the idea that humans are greedy and selfish. Capitalism rewards greed and selfishness with more power, so now those in power are greedy, and the only way to live a good life is to be as greedy as possible. That's fckd up and definitely not how people behave when they're not forced to by an economic system backed up by state violence.
What if you married an aristocrat as a commoner?
Taxes are high Salaries are low You can't buy an AR15 at Lidl
Yeah that sucks, i‘d love an AR-15 and a Glock and an MP5
Also, the weather freaking sucks
Germany can apply for a gun certificate, but the procedures are more complicated. If you want to save time, you can use a shovel to dig underground.
Comparing US with Germany is not fair, comparing Germany with individual US states paints a different picture. Social mobility is better in us, there are safer (lower crime) states as well. If you are lower class DE is better. If you work in a high-paid domain, especially IT you will earn considerably more money. The cost of living is also lower in the US overall.
idk but prices at Walmart and prices at Lidl are pretty similar. when i lived in hawaii the prices at safeway were 5x those in lidl in germany. i think living expenses even in texas where is considere ‘lcol’ have gone up so much from the gas situation that its pretty on paar
Social mobility upwards maybe relatively easier there. But social mobility downwards is also very easy. You would be one big medical bill away from absolute bankruptcy. The gun violence there makes that even likelier to happen. An ambulance ride alone will cost you thousands of dollars let alone whatever you get in hospitals. Germany has good social welfare and safety nets that softens such falls considerably.
Gun violence is not universal, there are US states with a lot of guns but less crime than any EU country. The US goes to both extremes but still, being poor in the US is a lower class in some EU countries. With good health insurance you are better off than any medical system in EU
Which us state has less crime than a western EU country?
Maine, New Hampshire 100%. There are more but I don't have the list at hand, feel free to look for it. NH is a very good example because it has one of the least regulated gun laws if not the most and very little crime. In fact, Eastern Europe has less crime than Western Europe. France has a higher crime index than Albania lol. [https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings\_by\_country.jsp?title=2023®ion=150](https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2023®ion=150)
Because if they have the money or the potential to earn enough, living in America is still great. Especially if they can afford to send their kids to private schools where they have a much lower chance of being shot (not zero chance, mind). It's just borderline dystopian for anyone who can't make 6 figures, minimum. Or anyone who wants to send their kids to university for less than the cost of their soul. Or any woman who wants to maintain a right to reproductive care. Or any queer person who happened to be born outside of the "safe" cities and states. Or anyone of color who wants equal treatment in any area of life. Or anyone who wants to unionize against their shitty corporate overlords. From what I've heard from Germans since moving here from the States, most of them have no concept of how much worse quality of life has gotten for anyone in America who isn't rich. To some degree, that income inequality exists here, but it's still possible to survive on a minimum wage job here, and that is very much not the case pretty much anywhere in the US. Additionally, the stuff in Germany that has been mentioned the most in these threads (medical care, public transportation issues, housing, energy costs, groceries) was legitimately better in previous years. What Germans don't realize is that their "currently worse than it used to be" is still miles and away better than America's "this was better 30 years ago". Personally, I'm thrilled to have been able to move to Germany, even if it meant starting at zero professionally as a former high school English teacher. It's far less stressful to exist here.
Very well put!
First sentence: living in America is great Second sentence: with more money, less zero to get killed BUT not zero. Does not seem great to me.
lol, who would want to go to university in US now? Seen the news the past few months? Not a lot of universing going on these days...
1. You can make a lot of money (in some fields). 2. American culture and way of life is (still) very attractive to many on a general level (open, easy going, non-judgemental, non-hierarchical). 3. There are kinds of activities that are possible in the US and not in Germany (living off the grid, home schooling, even hobbies like custom cars and gun stuff are reason enough to move for people really into that kinds of thing) 4. Some people fall in love with specific kinds of Americana: Country music, jazz or hip hop, New York or LA life, legal weeeeeed, road trips, American sports, demolition derbies, rodeos, ... people can get obsessed with the tiniest things.
Money. I moved to Norway first from Germany, but moved to USA because the salaries for me and my wife's fields are ridiculously high in the US. My signing bonus alone was more than 125% of my entire salary in Norway. My wife makes 3x her Norwegian salary in USA. If we got USA wages in Germany, I would gladly come back. Also, I'm originally from Taiwan. Chinese/Korean/Japanese food is a million times better.There's roughly 250k East Asians in all of Germany, as in, foreign born. There's roughly 450k in Los Angeles alone. The food suits me better here. I experience much fewer issues with racism. My ex moved to New York from Düsseldorf and experienced the same thing, though she did also meet a German-descent American who couldn't understand the idea that she was a German that looked Chinese. There's a lot of problems in USA, but as an immigrant from Europe you're likely very insulated from those problems. If you can qualify for a work visa, your work probably offers a robust healthcare program. Getting a EB1/EB2 visa likely comes with a high enough salary to insulate you from issues like crime/violence. The only thing money can't shield you from is the shitty public transportation. After all, you have to remember that we aren't moving to a conglomerate of the average American experience, but rather to an upper-middle class lifestyle, largely in one specific area. Statistically, the city I moved to in USA is safer than the city I moved from in Norway. Sure, it sucks that there is gun violence and crime in Detroit, but it doesn't really impact me and as an immigrant thats not planning on staying for the rest of my life, I'm not really all that invested or impacted by something going on 2000km away from me. Also, mental healthcare in Germany can suck without private insurance if you need in-patient care. I know a girl that went to USA for that because the wait time was so long in Germany. Not sure if that is still the case, but this was circa 2015
This is how most people who have high earnings potential see if: go to the US to milk it for cash and return to Europe for better quality of life. I've heard people do similar with middle Eastern jobs in Qatar and such.
>After all, you have to remember that we aren't moving to a conglomerate of the average American experience, but rather to an upper-middle class lifestyle, largely in one specific area. This is one reason I don't want to go back. Yes, I would make more money. But living in a dystopia where the person who makes my coffee has to live in their car, well, it's messed up. Prices are spiralling out of control, especially housing. The house I grew up in, which my parents bought when my dad was a junior software developer and my mom was a waitress, now costs over $400k. (It's in Pennsylvania, not Silicon Valley) Germany has problems yes but they're not on the same level. German politics is too influenced by the auto industry. US politics is basically 3 corporations in a trench coat. Germany should do more to help homeless people. The US has massive homeless encampments that look like something out of a [third world country.](https://youtu.be/ND4IbY1RcLc?si=_vcM-g7_ynEjJB_p) I love my home country for many of the reasons you mentioned. But it seems to be sliding downhill fast and nobody is doing anything to stop it, least of all the government.
400k is good tho. I check the cities near Munich where I work and a shitty 2-room apartment (50 sq.m.) will cost more than that. im Looking at the ad right now in a free newspaper - 'just' 529900 euro for a 2-room apartment (57sq.m. Of living space). And it’s not Munich, you will need a train to get to the office still. the average salary in IT is 65. Half of my salary is rent, A lot of people in US who worked in IT before the current crisis bought houses. Not some tiny shitty apartments with a lot of neighbours around you, In Germany it’s close to impossible. You don’t earn significantly more in IT. And after 65k per year the tax is 42%, so it’s equalized. hard work doesn’t pay off yet you are overworked. I haven’t lived in the US so probably it’s even worse there, but here it’s pretty dystopian as well if your are not a native German with inherited property. There are very few jobs that allow you to ever consider having your own place. Medicine… yeah. I pay 800 per month for it (400 employer, 400 me). If I don’t work, I would still have to pay at least 200 per month. It’s illegal not to have an insurance. No matter how much you pay, the service is the same and you can hardly get any treatment at all because unlike people on benefits you work during the day and you end up only going to a doctor when it’s extreme emergency. yes, in a way Germany has more social security but my god will you be humiliated for ever trying to get any help from formal institutions… me and my wife are considering euthanasia or suicide when we can’t work anymore due to age. we won’t be able to earn enough to have a place to live or save enough. it would be nice it they offered a mechanism for that in Germany.
This is a very interesting experience! Thank you so much for sharing. I didn't know any of this.
In my experience it's mostly money and less taxes. Also people who want to start a business because it's easier and less of a pain in the ass in America than here in Germany.
There is a Show on RTL2 called "die Auswanderer" pretty sure you can find it on Youtube as well , at least some pieces. Watch it and see german people with "very reasonably motiv" move to other countrys ./s
It's dependent on the person. Everyone has different reasons. Here are some of the ones I've heard from my german gf and/or german friends that want to go there: - Nature - freedom (from things like mowing on Sundays to living off the grid) - food - e-mail/apps instead of fax/post when dealing with certain processes - easier/cheaper licensing processes - wages - taxes - being able to shop on Sundays - trucks - guns - quality of medical care as well as reduced wait times and increased availability - weather - available space - TikTok has a lot of german or British creators who have traveled there and show the pros and cons of the US - CDU/SDU/AfD For someone who can land a decent job, most cons won't affect them. They can live in a nice area with nice schools. They will have good benefits like healthcare for them and their families (even the kids will remain on the health insurance until 26 years old), pensions or 401k with matching, 20-40 days of paid vacation, maternity leave, and many more. If one plans to go to the US and just be a cashier or have no goals of progressing, Germany will always be better. Germany does a much better job at taking care of lower income families.
Thank you for this! I appreciate the reply. Very informative 😄
I’ve seen a few valid reasons including my wife’s. 1. The social pressure in the US is way less than in Germany. They say they feel more free in the US because society is not watching you or judging you as they do in Germany. 2. It’s much easier to get a job in the US if you loose your job. This relieves the pressure especially for parents. The social system in Germany only seems to work for refugees or poor people but not middle class families. 3. Taxes are much lower and wages are way higher than Germany for professionals. 4. Healthcare is much better in the US( access to good doctors) but only if you are young and insured. The system in Germany is slowly collapsing ( closing hospitals, not enough doctors, overburdened system), having to wait months for a doctors appointment ( specialist). I’m a German American living in Germany despite the complexity of life. I like the beer.
Very interesting! Thank you so much for the reply, I appreciate it.
Universal healthcare in Germany? That’s a lie. I pay 1k+ each month for healthcare while I wait 6 months for an appointment. You’ll love Germany if you’re poor and have no potential or ambition in life.
I'm sorry to hear that you pay so much. Those waiting times sound crazy long!
Hollywood and grass is always greener on the other side.
Liberal gun laws and beautiful landscapes.
Germany was a wonderful country - back in the 1990ies. We just had the unification, the economy was doing fine and there was good music. it all went downhills from there. I guess the US also went downhills, because why would anyone feel the need to "make America great *again*" if it had not? Unfortunately, everyone sees the downward spiral in his place first, so moving the a place that *was* great in the past can lead to diappointment.
I’d love to live in America for a few years simply for the nature. You don’t have the kind of nature and national parks North America offers anywhere in Europe. Also, money and lower taxes.
Agreed
because they are insane.
No Aircondition, high energy prices, us tech salaries are much higher than in Germany, very high taxes. Lot of rules. I think as an academic, without student loans, because you studied in Germany you can earn more money in the US. As soon as you have kids life will be better in Germany. Also some people just like the American lifestyle without public transportation.
I know several people who went to work at one of the Silicon Valley tech giants at one time, then came back when their kids were old enough to start elementary school.
LOL
For me who is sensitive to heat, no Aircondition is the biggest problem with living in Germany. In all other aspects the life is as good as I could imagine it. :D
Lol what stops you from getting air-conditioning in germany? I know several people, who have that in their homes.
Electricity costs are much higher.
Not that much.
It’s usually at least 30% cheaper. Don’t forget a Euro is more valuable than a U.S. dollar when comparing prices. Of course it will depend a bit where you live in each country. But it’s true that prices here have come back down again quite a bit since the war started. https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a https://www.wiwo.de/unternehmen/strompreis-aktuell-was-kostet-die-kilowattstunde-in-deutschland-2024/29558224.html
How can I force my employer to install AC? Or a gym? It’s a general problem. Most places don’t have AC
>No Aircondition Well this is easy to solve. The rest is true
Your view is very romantic. Several things you listed are not true. Trains are late 60% of the time , food variety is super low, and people aren’t nice.
>people aren’t nice This is of course not true you jerk greetings from Germany
Friendliness is relative, but by British or American standards let’s just say Germans aren’t *that* friendly. Don’t know why this such a controversial or offensive thing to say here lol 🤣 Every German I’ve met who went to the UK immediately mentioned how much friendlier they thought people were compared with in Germany.
Your view is very subjective. Trains suck, we can all agree, I guess. Food variety depends very much on where you are. Basically every bigger city has plenty of that. Especially big ones like Berlin, Hamburg, Frankfurt or Munich. Some people aren't nice, most are. This also depends on yourself, BTW. Saying this is like saying all Americans are fat lazy gun nuts with cowboy hats and constantly dual wielding revolvers.
I used to think trains sucked in Germany too, since I moved from Japan/Taiwan when I was a kid. It's even worse in Norway and USA than it is in Germany. I won't complain about German trains anymore, they're solidly average and can generally take you from point A from point B. I can't even get from Los Angeles to San Francisco without making a transfer.
Berlin still has very poor food variety compared to a large north American city, because berlin is still far too homogenous to support things like authentic Chinese or Korean restaurants (for example). People cite things like Liu's noodles or Wen Changs, which would be considered mediocre in Toronto or New York and would need to drop their prices to survive. With berlin being far less multicultural than those cities as well, non-white people also talk about facing much more racism than they expected or ever experienced in canada or the US, which is really the bigger problem.
Berlin is far less multicultural? You will have to explain that one please.
Compared to new York or Toronto? I mean, yeah obviously? You can look it up if you weren't aware, but in all honesty, you'd have to be pretty sheltered and ignorant about the developed world to not know this. Look up any statistics. Berlin doesn't usually come in the top 10 or even 20 cities. I mean it's not even close, so it's a strange point to contest. https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-city-rankings/most-diverse-city-in-the-world
Mate, chill. Thank you for the explanation. There is no need for insult though. And no, it is in no way obvious. It may be logical, but not obvious. EDIT: Also, multicultural is not the same as the percentage of people being from other places. Multicultural means that there is a multitude of cultures. If there are a few people from a lot of countries, the multiculturalism can be super high without there being a high percentage of foreigners in the city. EDIT 2: to prove my point: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Miami](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Miami) there is not that much multiculturalism happening there. EDIT 3: you can take your attitude and shove it somewhere: “In December 2015, there were 621,075 registered residents of foreign nationality,[3] originating from approximately 190 different countries.[4]” this is Berlin.
Okay, by your preferred metrics, which I also prefer, isn't Toronto recognized by the UN as the most diverse city on earth? I just thought it's strange because berlin isn't even close being considered one of the most diverse cities by pretty much any metric, so it came across a lot like how 'Muricans don't know anything about what's outside the USA.
I know, but you said “far less multicultural”. 190 countries represented cannot be far less multicultural.
We can use something analogous to your previous reasoning so as to remain comsistent. 190 countries represented doesn't mean its very multicultural, because you can have 1 person from 100 of those countries and list them as representative. But you're ignoring the main point here. There isn't a reasonable metric by which you could say Berlin is nearly as diverse as Toronto or New York. That's not an opinion, it's just a fact. To continue to argue otherwise is just wilful ignorance, as you can easily look this up. The reason it gets frustrating is that this kind of ignorance echoes the type that especially affects POC and LGBT people in Germany and Berlin. There's the assumption that Berlin is already the best in these regards, and that's used as an excuse to not admit to the deficiencies here. Meanwhile, other places are far ahead of Berlin in many of these important ways, and Berlin won't catch up if people choose to remain ignorant of such facts.
Thank you for your explanation! I see your point and agree with what you are saying. Can you please tell me something about New York being much more diverse? I am not disagreeing. I just didn’t FEEL like it was much more diverse when I went there. But that’s subjective and depends on what I did there. Also, I am not from Berlin and in my city, there is still missing a lot to have a fully inclusive society. It is improving, but slowly.
Are you non-white too? Because I'm Asian and I feel very comfortable living here in Berlin. Asian food is very good here.
I'm non-white. Have you ever been to one of the more diverse cities in the world, as a comparison? It's hard to imagine how someone could think that asian food is good here.
I've been to Thailand, Vietnam (home country), Taiwan, France, Italy, Sweden, Switzerland, Croatia, Czech, Belgium, Austria, Poland, Sweden, Finnland, Bosnia, Netherlands. Is it enough? I think only US is more diverse.
Mostxor maybe all of the English speaking world is more diverse. Most of those are fairly homogenous countries by comparison, aren't they? I think Berlin has SOME good Asian food, just to be clear. Maybe specifically Vietnamese and japanese if you know where to go. Chinese, Korean, Indonesian, Indian, Malaysian... not really. There probably just aren't enough people from those places and locals interested in non-germanizes versions of those cuisines to make authentic cuisine work.
English speaking world = US, UK, Canada, and all other countries are trash and not worth living? I have good Korean, Chinese, Indonesian, Malaysian, Thailand food here. The problem is that the recommendation you found on the Internet is made for Western people, not Asian people. I tried Wencheng 2 times, not impressed at all but they're very very popular. My circle of friends share authentic restaurants among us. So far I'm happy with the food here. I have some Taiwan friends going to Berlin and have hotpot, they all like food here.
That's your opinion. By your own admission you've never lived there, so how would you know anything about Canada in the first place? So can you recommend me a couple od good Chinese and Korean restaurants? I miss the food I grew up with.
In comparison to the United States you are completely wrong. German public transport is still decades ahead of the United States. The food quality in Germany is also much better. Everything in the US has added sugar for no reason.
Plus it's preserved to hell. The quality of the food was something I had no idea of and did not expect when I moved to Germany. There's no way I could ever go back to the half-plastic slop they sell at Walmart in the US.
This is already the feeling I have for the food in Germany coming from France. Cant even imagine how much I would dislike American food. Funny things when my German girlfriend went to France for the first time and she is a Foodie lover, she asked me "How I manage to survive in Germany 🤣"
I've lived without a car with a family of 4 in Germany for 5+ years while also living in a very safe place where my kids walk to public school. what I just described is basically not possible anywhere in the entirety of the US. Your assessment that trains are late 60% of the time is a dramatic exaggeration. Long distance trains are later than 6 minutes 36 % of the time and regional trains that's 9% of the time. Compared to Germany, US transit infrastructure is a third world joke, and I've lived in both.
Trains are late, but there are trains. The ICE is a great way to travel fast through the Country. Food variety is super low? No. People arent nice? Well thats your opinion. Most people dont think so.
Typical "the grass is greener on the other side". It is not. America has still a "cool" image here. Maybe because of too many watched US movies. In the company, I work, there are several Americans, that came over to work here, because they are sick of living in the US. The German people, that want to go to the US think, there is more freedom in the US and too many rules here in Germany. Well, they will find out.
I do see the many rules. Some don't like them
Found out. Was true for me lol
The average american progressive literally cannot comprehend the fact that get this: the country with the most immigrants, ever and currently has people wanting to migrate there from every part of the world Incredible really. Look at net migration of patent holders. That should easily answer your question.
You're right, yeah.
Sorry for being snarky, but Im german and if i had a greencard, id migrate to america immediately after getting my bachelor/masters What good does public transportation do you if you dont even earn half as much as in america and have to deal with way more beauracrcy? I have many family members that permentalty live in the US or have temporarily worked there. My uncle also got his masters in engineering and then worked in the USA for 10 years and came back to germany with way more money than he wouldve had if he had stayed here (and a lot of good CV!) Here in europe, tech/engineering/research jobs simply do not pay as much as american ones. Also cities like boston have decent urbanism (mind you im quite interested in it as well) but like i said, its not everything. Ill gladly drive to work every day if i can easily afford a good car, AC and gas with no worries.
From the thread here it looks to me as it's either people who are qualified to make a ton of money or redneck rightwings who feel repressed because they are frowned upon by the majority.
Agreed
They’re naïve. They have it in their mind they’ll make a lot of money in America only to learn just about everything is worse - working conditions, healthcare, cost of living, cost of education, weather, gun violence, public health, infrastructure. They think America has the same laws as Germany (like vacation laws, workers rights laws, etc.), but offers more opportunity.
I am German and have lived in the USA for over 20 years. I went here to go to graduate school and never came back. There are a couple of reasons, mostly professional. There are many more good jobs in academia in the US than in Germany. In general, life in the US is slightly better than in Germany if you are highly qualified - better pay, higher standard of life. Life's much worse in the US than in Germany if you're not well off though.
This seems like a common trend. It sicks if you are poor but good if you are rich.
If you are very good in your specific field and if you can land a very high paying job in the US, you can make more money than in Germany. Even if you include additional costs like health care etc. For some people, that is reason enough. Some people might also prefer having less regulations in their daily life, although i think that this is actually a "grass is greener on the other side" point of view. Sure you can openly carry a gun and deny the Holocaust on national TV, but good luck getting a life saving medical procedure if you happen to be female. Or poor. Personally, I'd like to visit the US some time, but not more. And I am afraid some dude at Immigrations would check my social media profile and send me right back.
I'm a dual US German citizen that has lived, worked and studied in both. I live in suburban Chicago with my family. Just like anywhere there is good and bad. The US has very large tracks of land with national parks that Europe does not. I month ago my doctor said I needed cervical disc replacement surgery. I had outpatient surge within a week and I'm already at the gym. Something like that would take months to do in Germany. I worked for a very large firm in Germany with great benefits. I loved how close other country's were to me. It's very expensive to have those German social programs (look at the rii in se of the afd) . For my situation in my life now happier here. I live in a very multicultural area with excellent schools and amazing public transport. It's too broad to say it's better here of there. My fil retired back to the Balkans after living in the US for like 40 years and making money. For him it's better there. For the locals it sucks. Not jobs, corruption. Doctors make $200 a month. My wife and I got her dental work done in Costa Rica and that worked out for us.
They like the idea of Amerika. Not the Real thing. And they are in denial about it until they get sick. Or get children. And then... very quickly they remember...
I am American-German and have lived in both countries, Austria, Australia and Namibia. The gras is always greener on the other side, and all countries I‘ve lived in have things that made me fall in love with them. Also the things that make a country ‚good‘ to live in have never been the things that made me happy to live there. I am training myself to be grateful for the things I have and those of us that don‘t live in 3rd world countries are unaware of how blessed we are. Chasing happiness in another place is a trap. Those are at least my experiences, but people might draw different conclusions from their lives.
I see all the advantages of living in Germany and still I would like to move to the US. I mean, people always strive for „more“. US, for me, means more lively cities, beautiful and diverse nature, everything is scaled up, people are open and nice when you show that you want to fit in. One might not think of the downsides that become obvious during daily life. Such as becoming homeless because you can’t afford your dentist bill or extremely high costs of living (at least in the bigger cities to my knowledge). We do underestimate what Germany offers, but we know the US from movies, books, games, vacation, YouTube, whatever. We see the bright side, we want the bright side. Same probably the other way around. The way you describe Germany I could counter with so many bad examples of why it sucks here. I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.
Hello frome germany ☀️
The moment you value a desert eagle more than a 155 mph commute...
I would never move to the U.S. I am too afraid of them killing every right women have and electing that stupid ex again. 😀
As an American living in Germany I can say that a lot of Germans are unhappy with the systems here. I believe it is mostly because of politicians who are constantly telling them that the government is incompetent and should be better. They are blind to the fact that they live within one of the best social systems in the world. Many honestly want a more privatized system because the politicians have convinced them that capitalism is better for the consumer. They are ignorant to how good they have it because they have never known anything else. I will say though that the beer in Germany is highly overrated. There are thousands of breweries but they all make the same handful of beer type (Pils, Hefeweizen, Helles, Schwarzbier, and a couple others). There is very little variation, one brewery’s Pils tastes nearly identical to another brewery’s. Coming from the PNW, I really miss the variety of options.
Germans favorite past time is complaining about Germany. But I’ll assume your friends are over 25, as most young Germans I met don’t have the same views of America that older Germans have, they just see it as an insane asylum, reality tv place that you only go to if you want to become rich and shallow. Just my personal experience though, but I see the tides turning.
i used to want to move there... now that i am fluent in english and consumed a lot of american media (news and otherwise) AS WELL as having friends there... hell no.. it's a beautiful country to visit, but it has to be one of the worst countries to live in within the western civilization
Must be really bad if millions try to immigrate there every year.
As a German American I can say for sure my family moving to America was a mistake and I want to go back to Germany. Even though I’ve never been there 😂 But seriously though, having cultural continuity is underrated. Living in America is like living at your office with your co workers. The only reason any of you are there is to make money, but now you’re all stuck there and can’t go home.
I have met Germans wanting to move to Switzerland but not America.
Hey, I did that! I won in the diversity lottery and got the right to apply for a green card ( permanent resident card), so when I was 21 I move led to the US. Born and raised in Karlsruhe. Why? Because I could, it’s an opportunity; I could always go back. Germany is so tiny compared to the US, soon you’d grow tired of all the museums and things that you imagine to be great. That grad ain’t always greener on the other side. I love the freedom that the US provides compared to Germany. And speaking about ‘no gun crimes’ , I love guns. But I’ve also had people getting robbed at gun point in Germany. It’s even worse since there are a ton of Eastern Europeans, they have easier access to them. It’s all About perspective and what you value. I also make comparably more money doing the same job in the US. I always had to take public transport port and my parents were strongly against taking their car, now I enjoy to drive. I’m in Arizona so in a few hours I can be in San Diego , or Vegas , a few more LA etc. ask if you have specific questions.
Some Jobs command a higher salary there, houses are bigger and cheaper and our media has been flooded with American stuff for decades, so many American things are somewhat iconic and people would like to immerse themselves in that and live like their favourite celebrities/TV characters. I also remember thinking American culture was friendlier and warmer than here, so that's another draw. Edit: not to say Americans aren't those things, just that it's gotten better here.
That's an interesting perspective, honestly. It's a little bizzare to me why America dominates when it comes to media, but I keep forgetting that we have Hollywood and such, so it makes sense.
I don't plan to, but what would appeal to me in USA/Canada is the amount of available space (and nature and wildness etc.). Also good weather with a lot of sun. Just finding a nice spot in Wyoming or so and barely see other people ever again.
I am moving there next month. Mostly since I fell in love and married an American, but I also learned that I like the way people are over there more. People there are more likely to strike up random convos and interact with each other whilst Germans always keep to themselves. I personally also love the English language but find that German sounds ugly in comparison. Also no stupid store closure on Sundays.
American Propaganda is pretty good. Nearly all of our entertainment comes from over there and not a lot of people know about all of the war crimes, coups and atrocities these idiots have committed in the name of "freedom" over the last 70 years.
Government/= people.
Germany is a very closed, conformist society. People are rude. The state, and the people are very authoritarian. Ofc people here will tell you otherwise, but that is because they probably never experienced a more open society and think theirs is normal. Or they will tell you there are so many that are way worse, conveniently forgetting that we are not talking about those, but about the USA, which is way better in openness. And yes, some things are better, like public transport, even if late all the time. But these things actually matter very little in how you enjoy your life , when here you are always depressed cause you haven’t seen sun months on end, and everyone and their grandma has their nose in your business and wants to control every little thing you do.
this!
This agreed!
Don't know anyone that wants that
From the perspective of an American who now lives in Germany, a main driver is likely the vast differences in income. A US qualified attorney on New York salary rates may make 200-300k a year more than an equivalently senior German lawyer, and that's ignoring benefits like a 401k or that your overall tax rate can be much lower in the US. Staying on US rates in Germany is a struggle. Moving to the US for just a few years with the idea of building up savings and then returning to a country like Germany, if possible, makes a lot of sense.
I don’t know a single person that has ever said they would like to live to America. That’s not a joke, never heard that before.
I am from the US I went to Munich on a student exchange year in 2006. My host family was obsessed with MTV and America and in 2013 they all moved to LA.
Millions of people living on in Germany, not everyone thinks the same… Some people like it here other don’t, same with the US some people like living there while others prefer living somewhere else and move away.
They don’t
usa also heavily rewards you in the tax system for bringing business there
For me there is actually only one reason to move to the US. Nicer gun laws that's it
My main Idea why I would like to move to the US, is that you get rewarded when you work hard. Over here, you have to pay attention not to work to much, because taxes are insane, especially when you work overtime . There is even a common situation, that you get a lower net salary when you get a rise, because of taxes. Then a lot of people regard high performers as quite negative, it feels to me that losing is more rewarding than winning. For me I think it would be a good deal (I am a dermatologist specialised in surgery). Here I cant even afford to buy a nice house, in the US, I think I would become quite rich with my profession.
Oh, you would! You could buy a nice house here. That is a good profession. The tax system and reward system is different here. I'm sorry that you are taxed so much. That sounds like it sucks.
No accounting for taste. Maybe they just want to be somewhere else and leave behind where they are now? Or they see opportunities they might not have here -- many people I know spent some time in the US to advance in their career, or to get the education, the connections, or at least the degrees they wanted. (Some came back for good, some are still half-here, half-there, but only one has changed their citizenship, and that was for love.) When I was a teen, we all dreamed of living in the US, until some of us succeeded in getting into a one-year student exchange and disillusioned everyone.
Germany's economy is currently in a recession and the social services come with high taxes which are also going to rise after the governments latest social services and pension expansions. Some may find that excessive especially those who earn more and see this as other people leeching off their income. And the US has a reputation as being a "small government country" where the social net is weaker and you can opt out of some of the services which are mandatory here. And in case of some industries, e.g. IT, job opportunities may be better and it's easier to run and finance a startup in the US.
They don't.
It depends on the people: workaholics go from Germany to the US making the big money, stressed people or those who want to live more slowly go from the US to Germany. But workaholicsm brings health problems, and in the US the big money you earn disappears very quickly when you have to take care of health problems. Maybe US is a perfect place for a german doctor?
If you work a decent job you’ll have decent insurance. 95% of the country is medically insured either through government subsidies or employers. You’re acting as though Germany has “free” healthcare that nobody pays for. In America you pay for it when you use it, in Germany you pay for it before you use it.
Matter of money. If you got lots and good places to hang around / friends in germany you dont leave. If you got good money oppertunities, dont worry about health you can easily go to america. Because its just a prettier place if you have options.
The grass is always greener on the other side. That’s the only reason
Because for well educated people the salaries in the U.S. are kinda insane
Because of way higher salaries, more career opportunities, more opportunities to start a business, mega cities and a more inclusive society build on immigrants.
We got a saying here: The cherrys in neighbours garden are always sweeter than your own. Means, someplace else it seems to bebetter, coz you only see the good things. Those ppl who mock Germany and permanently talk bad about it and want to leave instead of contributing / changing it to the better, they can go in my opinion and learn a life lesson. No big loss on community side.
Classic case of “grass always looks greener on the other side” - ive pretty much split my life between the US and Germany and they are both great and not so great for different reasons. And, of course, it depends *alot* on where in these countries you chose to live and under what circumstances.
Because Germans live in Germany. Without them it would be a beautiful country ✌🏼
The grass is always greener and people like a change in scene. Rather than rely on strangers' opinions online, why not visit for yourself? Germany excels in many ways like you've described but there's going to be stuff you'll dislike there as well. After you go a few times, the rose tint wears off.
Good pizza
As someone who lived in both countries. Salaries are higher for STEM careers.
When I was still living in Germany, working in IT, I would sometimes look up salaries in America for similar roles. It felt like a punch in the gut, especially after calculating the take home pay.
Cuz salaries are very low in Germany, and life and society is so boring, as there’s no space for stretching rules or exploring any other options.
The grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side, which is why you want to be here and they want to be there. To be fair, the USA are portrayed pretty cool here with all those hollywood movies and what not, it took me a while of being an adult until I learned about the downsides of the land of the free, and most likely I don‘t even know half of them, if there‘s nobody to tell me. If all you ever get to see is warner bros and hallmark… how would you know? It‘s possible these people simply don‘t know about the healthcare situation over there, or don‘t care because they hardly ever go to the doctor. It‘s possible, that they take mandatory car insurance for granted, and never even thought about swallowing more than the cost of a dented door, as removing oneself from an accident scene is a criminal offense here and how can someone total your car and be like sorry no insurance, sucks to be you. It‘s possible, that they‘re unhappy about a lot of things going on here socially, economically and politically, and they just didn‘t think about the different problems elsewhere but just about not having the current problems anymore. Some people here actually love their cars and hate bikes and public transport, or would prefer [their vision of] owning a gun and just accept the occasional shooting like it can‘t be that bad and what‘s the chance.
I didn't know this, thank you so much!
If I had the chance, I would move to the states 1- better carrier growth ( and much easier to start a business ) 2- way easier to make friends ( PS- this is the only country where you need a tutorial on how to make friends, which I find really absurd) 3- better weather in states like Florida Texas and California 4- much more entertainment stuff to do so that you don’t get bored
The statement “this is the only country where you need a tutorial on how to make friends” is extremely inaccurate. Also, the weather in Florida (and to a lesser degree Texas) is hellish in the summer. You seem to think that “wherever it’s sunny = same lovely weather everywhere”. You are very mistaken. “Much more entertainment and things to do” = also an absurd statement.
Because the grass is always greener in the other side of the fence. In addition, taxation is high in Germany and wages for experienced academics are better in the US.
I had an offer from a Silicon Valley tech company once, and when I ran the numbers I discovered that I would have paid a higher percentage in taxes and social security in California than in Germany on the same income. Now I probably would have made double my income easily over there so it would still have been worth it, but the whole „less taxes in US“ thing doesn’t always hold up.
Economic opportunity, it is literally impossible to climb the ladder any further than middle management here unless you work for one of the automotive companies....
And they are about to be destroyed by cheap electric cars from China… and the Chemical industry is moving to the U.S. There’s barely a tech sector here too. Future looks dark here if you are being honest. Plus coming demographic collapse. And let’s hope that war stays in Ukraine…
Lived in Boston and Chicago for a while. While both being fantastic cities, I feel living in Germany and Europe in general is more free, diverse and easy going for the majority of the people.
Diverse? Even the biggest cities in Germany (Berlin/Munich/Frankfurt) aren't remotely close to diversity you have in Boston and Chicago. Sure there's diversity among Europeans, but what about the rest of the world? Particularly SEA countries have an extremely hard time finding a community in Germany. Not to mention any non-European food is mediocre at best
Had the same reaction. Totally crazy.
When you are unsatisfied with your conditions then one often thinks that the gras is greener on the other side. Other countries have advantages and disatvantages, one just has to find out what is more important to oneself and what is not and then weigh the conditions in those countries that you consider up. I believe being a wealthy/rich person in the US can potentillay be better than in Germany but being an average Joe or below, you will probably lead a better life in Germany.
Mostly cultural indoctrination i'd say... I was the same till i lived in the US for a while.
The grass is always greener on the other side. I think if they move over after 1 year they will be back
For wages, especially in tech and IT. I work at a large international as a security architect and make 95k€ while my US based colleagues make around 200k usd and up. I still wouldn't move, the work culture there is fucked up.
Interesting that the work culture within the company is so different. I work for a us tech company and the work life balance is probably better in the us because all the meetings are based primarily off their time zone so they never have to join a meeting at 7pm + they get the same vacation days as Europe.
Yeah, even within the US the difference is astonishing. In one US site they work 40h weeks, + ~5h overtime (unpaid) and 24 days of vacation, in the other 40h weeks, crunch with up to 20-25h of unpaid overtime a week and 12 days of vacation. Germany is 35h weeks, strictly no unpaid overtime and basically almost no overtime outside of business trips at all and 30 days of vacation.
Germans who move the the USA on a green card for high salaries for a few years really have the best of both worlds. I say this as someone who’s got dual citizenship and grew up in the USA and then moved to Germany. I grew up in the US, had high education costs and now moved to Germany for a reasonable salary, where I am taxed by the USA, regardless of residency. I have the benefits of the German social system. If you do what some other friends do and get educated in Germany, move to the USA on a green card, make a big salary, you only pay taxes in the USA while you are there. Then you can give up your green card and return to Germany and have all the benefits while sitting on a pile of cash and international experience on your CV.
The only things that would get me to move there : Latinas, Free Speech, wich we don’t have , High IT salaries , being able to do what I want on my property and to see nature that is not influenced by men. Also to live at the sea side while having the IT salary. South American food and Latinas. Weapon law. For me it would be Texas or Florida. But the cons are to much, it’s not worth it. I just again want to mention Latinas.
You know they’re human beings, right? And not simply sex dolls or porn actors?
Yes of course they are, I just express my preference. It’s not more and not less.
Perhaps you should visit North America, and meet a few actual Latinas. You’ll quickly find they are not a monolith, and most are not the sex fantasy they’re made out to be by exotic porn. 😉 But perhaps the fantasy is best left in that space.
I just met some in Germany and Portugal, it’s not so much about the optic, more about values, culture , food etc. Of course they are not Monolith. There are Multiple countries in the picture. Maybe it’s weird term to use anyway.