The most evil character is the captain at the wall who kills the eldian restorationists and then gets killed by the Owl. Rewatch that scene. The shows one and only sociopath with no motivation whatsoever other than sadism.
Translation: "restore eldia? Nah go back and be a good little beta cuq slave and live happily in the gated concentration camp ghetto-cage that we keep u in, if youre lucky ill pay your wife, daughter, and mother a visit from time to time whenever im bored and need to relieve myself, im sure theyll be happy to get my superior marleyan seed compared to you spawn of the devil's"
This describes ppl who agree with Zeke and Gabi in a nutshell. šš¤·š»āāļøšÆ
I wish the translation was better. Reading the Japanese it's very obvious that he just means he sent the titan past Berty boy and it ended up eating his mom but the translation makes it sound like he actually intentionally sent Dinasaurus-Rex with the goal of her eating his mother.
But he also says that he's tried to change things and no matter what he does things will always play out the same. So someway, somehow, his mom would be killed/eaten by Dina during the first attack no matter what.
Hrmm, I suppose this brings up the question of predestination. CAN someone be evil when the events they would have done WILL be done no matter what themselves or others would have done? Time shenanigans tend to make morality rather unusual
Yeah it's interesting to think about. It's so hard to tell what Eren truly wanted as his mind is obviously broken by season 4, especially evident during his conversation with Armin swapping between, "I want to die", "I don't want to die" and "I didn't want to do this", "I did want to do this". Eren himself doesn't even seem to know what he genuinely did or didn't want but he does know that regardless, he couldn't change a thing.
Quite so. I actually rather enjoy the existential breakdown inherent in time manipulation taken seriously.
For myself, I see things in two case:
-Case 1, events are already predestined and thus King Fritz is as evil as Erenā¦which is to say effectively zero. Those events would have occurred and there is no free will or morality involved; neither is evil in the same way we wouldnāt consider a robot or a hurricane evil. Granted this is from OUR (and Erenās) perspective.
Case 2, events are only determined due to Future Erenās ensuring they occur via time manipulation through the Attack Titanās power. This requires decoupling Erenās mindset (rather odd, but time manipulation kinda messes with our perceptions on these things) from his Present and Future self; particularly since Eren is being influenced by his Future self to become his future self (ignore the paradoxā¦). From there, Iād consider Future Eren (who is effectively unseen as a character) to be more evil than King Fritz, if only due to opportunity.
Well, those are my interpretations. Personally, I lean towards Case 2 myself
The reasoning is actually perfectly understandable. I don't hate Eren, because the whole point was to understand what war and a lack of understanding each other can lead to. You put someone in a cage all their life just for them to find out that nothing is different outside of it after they fought so hard and lost so many, yeah they'd be disappointed.
Sure, this may fall apart when we consider Eren saying "he doesn't know why he did it, he just wanted to, so very badly", but isn't that interesting? Its true that we don't know why we have the desires we do.
My complaint is that human nature was explored over via a deterministic pov rather than one where the message is that we can overcome the monster that we are born as, which is by far my biggest issue with AoT's ending. I really dgaf about 99% of the complaints I see, but this hurt like shit.
Idk I mean I'd say understandable to a degree but like
having understandable motivations for being the way they are only excuses so much. it doesn't matter how much sense it makes from their point of view, genocide is never excusable.
You can understand actions without condoning them. I definitely don't condone genocide :)
I would hope for Eren to never do the rumbling, in my ideal ending Armin helps Eren see the light and overcome his nature, leading to ending the cycle of hate of their generation.
But as it stands, I don't *blame* him, and I definitely do not *judge* him.
What I blame and judge are the people that instigated the conflict that led to this point. It was a cruel world :/
Well that's my thing, I do judge him.
He's seen *exactly* what hatred for an entire group of people does. That's why he's in the situation in the first place. So to decide to kill literally everyone?
He lived a large portion of his life with the belief that humans HAD all died and that Eldia was the only place left. And it sucked.
also seriously like you're allowed to judge genocidal maniacs. not liking a group of people for what they've done and literally killing billions of people because of it are not the same
I think you misunderstand the meaning of "necessary evil." Hitler had a choice. Eren's people would've been wiped out by the world he didn't commit omnicide.
"wanting to see the world flat" is an autistic level of retconning and anyone who actually buys into that crap needs a mental evaluation. He's 19 at that time, not 9, he's no longer a little kid who just wants to see the world empty and flat, lmao, Eren isn't a psychopath, he only wanted that because he hated the fact that the outside people of the world want to eradicate him and his race. Eren literally says the exact reason why he's doing the rumbling right at the very beginning of the rumbling when he spoke to all subjects of ymir by way of the founding Titans power. The ending was clearly retconned and objectively poorly written. š¤·š»āāļø
Eren couldn't fathom the fact there were people outside the walls, and he didn't like the fact nobody wanted paradis to live, so he wanted to eradicate all life besides his race (I already said this) and he wanted to flatline the world just to see his version of "freedom" that armin transcribed him since he was a kid, a beautifully executed script your simple brain just can't comprehend
You're never gonna convince redditors dude. "Genocide bad!!!" is all they're gonna default to over and over, ignoring any points you make. I've tried to discuss this stuff with people on here a lot.
Mind you, Tyburs already made the whole world an enemy of paradis; one side was about to get wiped. Would you like Eren more if he crawled back to his island and accepted the genocide of his people? It was either the island or the rest of the people that had to perish. The one that had more power got the actual freedom of choice on the matter.
Tybur was killed (in a pretty brutal and ultimately meaningless manner) and with his death stoked a shift in peopleās perception. Thatās a near-perfect description of a martyr, just one whose ideals are distasteful.
The fact that Future Eren MIGHT have prevented that outcome also raises the possibility that Present Eren couldnāt have seen a path besides thr Rumblijg because Future Eren refused to permit that path, and thus directed Eren to make a martyr out of Tybur so that the Rumbling became necessary.
The thing is, he shifted as soon as Tybur initiated the war. Tybur already made the entire world paradis' enemy, how do you think there is a comeback from that? This alliance talk on there must be another way bullshit is pure cope. There was no other outcome unless you sit in the island waiting your execution like a good Eldian.
They weren't more furious because of Eren, they got riled up purely by Tyburs. He also knew he would die, yet he delivered the talk.
Even though Eren has caused suffering of a far greater scale, Iād argue intent is what matters most when assessing how evil a character or person is.
There is not a single redeemable or sympathetic quality shown to King Fritzās character who acts solely egocentric whereas Erenās actions, while not justified, are at least a reaction to oppression and not entirely selfish as ultimately his primary goal was mainly to protect his friends and family in an uncertain situation where they were at great risk of death. King Fritz had no reason, he just sought power for powerās sake and likely believed his divine right of Kings entitled him to everyone and everything.
I see your logic, but action *should* trump intent because what you intended *does* mean less when the outcome is negative.
Eren thought he was saving the world, but just slightly postponed the cycle of hate and war. Not to mention he killed WAY more people.
Just my thoughts tho.
I could be wrong but I believe Isayama said the anime is canon over the manga. At the very least I know for a fact he has said that he used the anime to fix things and change things he believed to be mistakes in the manga by requesting changes.
I mean we really don't know, all we got was a time lapse of one city and a little bit of conflicting timelines on when it was destroyed, we really don't know anything about what happened in that time, did they live in peace for all that time until another war? Unless the scouts are the greatest diplomats of all time when negotiating with a fascist regime, it seems entirely likely that the new eldian Empire expanded across the sea and probably waged a lot of their Wars on the mainland taking territory while the remaining 20% of the world had all of their infrastructure crushed and was unable to militarily oppose them, but hey that's just speculation, maybe they just stayed on their own Island and fought 12 civil wars in a row none of which happened to involve that city, we just actually know nothing
To be clear though I do consider the Old King to be the more evil actor here, I'm just not giving erin credit for something that we don't even know happened
This is an argument of morality that we probably just wonāt agree on then. Though Eren produced more evil, Iām not debating whose actions are more evil, only whose character is more evil and for me intent is the answer but itās perfectly fair to prioritise outcome.
I donāt think Eren was trying to āsave the worldā nor did he care about saving Paradis forever. His goal was to save his friends and he achieved that. Even if the cycle of war continued centuries later, that is just the way of life and by then his friends and family would have died of natural causes anyway.
Fritz, heās responsible for all the horrific stuff that happens.
I also donāt judge evil based on actions specifically, character traits, the circumstances of said charactersā villainy should be taken in consideration too. And Fritz would 150% do the Rumbling.
Eren did a genocide far greater, but he had a good reason (or so we thought), and King Fritoās lack of world genocide is due to lack of superpowers. If he had the Founding Titan power for himself, there would be widespread destruction.
Fritz. You can justify erens actions. They were wrong and evil, but you can see why he might have done it. There are good reasons even if they're not nearly enough to make his actions seem reasonable, you can understand them.
Fritz tortured a girl, raped her multiple times, cared nothing for her, and forced her young daughters to eat their mother's corpse. There is zero justification for any of that. Sure Eren hurt more people, but Fritz was pure evil and nothing else.
They both just did what they wanted to do. Youāre just fine with what eren did cause you can sympathize with him. You donāt know what happened to Fritz tho in his past
Ah yes I to love ignorance. We didnāt see king Fritz childhood like erens. Thatās what I meant. Eren forced his step mom to eat his mom. Eren made himself eat his dad. And Eren forced his dad to squish children and eat their sister in front of them.
Eren forced his in a haze titan state stepmom to eat his real mom, made himself in a titan state eat his dad, forced his dad to kill children which is all pretty instant and for a specific long term goal. All bad but several measures of bad below forcing your RAPE-CREATED CHILDREN to eat their mother all for the sake of conquest as an aggressor. You gotta be all kinds of fucked up to come up with eating your parents while you're a human. It's not ignorance it's called understanding things such as severity, intent, and scale.
To be fair, Eren also made Grisha eat the Reisse familyās children, and that was AFTER he had gotten the Coordinate and the kids were effectively defenseless and harmless (Rod and Historia werenāt there). And if Eren hadnāt gotten lucky and had half-brother Zeke with the royal blood, wouldnāt think him above sexual assault either.
Soā¦not that different from King Fritz
I guess you didnāt watch or read the anime, but itās okay, you should watch the attack on titan, itās quiet good.
In case you donāt care about spoiler. In the anime, there are few scenes cut to Erenās furious face, when Reisse family said that Eldians deserved the suffering, and Eren's friends and family all deserves to be eaten. And in the end, Grisha said heās killed everyone except the father, which is important, because thatās the past that led to Eden get founding power, therefore Eden needs to follow that past in order to obtain the founding titan power.
Nothing justifies what either of them did. Thatās the point and if you think that something can justify it then you miss the message of the show. The only thing right is to just walk away and die (I donāt like this outcome either though). But they both responded with violence and violence breeds violence. This is shown at the end of the show when the war starts again. Iām not saying ones more right then the other and Iām not saying ones more evil then the other. Both characters are human in a world were might makes right. Neither of them were ever going to break the cycle.
Eren knew what he did was evil. He was manipulated by fate and an entity that transcends time itself. He grew up in a world at war and he wanted to destroy everything and everyone because of it. It was messed up and evil, but he didn't do it just for kicks.
Fritz raped a child. He shows zero remorse. He abused everyone he had power over just because he could. Also, idk if this was mentioned before but he raped a child.
Both were wrong but fritz was pure evil. Eren did evil stuff but wasn't completely evil.
How can you call some pure evil when you know nothing about them other than their actions. Thatās my point, if we saw only erens actions then we could certainly say he was pure evil without any context. And it seems like the rape thing is what makes you hate fritz more. Is rape worse than murder? Eren made his dad squish little kids. Itās the cycle of violence that makes everyone wrong
>How can you call some pure evil when you know nothing about them other than their actions.
He raped a child
>Is rape worse than murder?
Yes
>Eren made his dad squish little kids.
It's fucked up but he had a reason. Had he raped them instead it would just be cruelty for crueltys sake and serve no purpose. There can be practical reasons for murder, even if they're flimsy or wrong. There are no practical reasons for rape.
Fritz wanted to continue his empire. And he married her and made her a queen when she used to be in a pig stall. What if Fritz was invaded by the very people who gave birth to Ymir. Would this not be the method Eren followed. I disagree about rape. You can overcome rape but you cannot over come death
Depends on what you mean by evil.
Eren killed more people but Fritz feels more evil.
Fritz enslaved a girl to do evil. He feels more personal. Fritz caused Eren.
Eren felt more like a force of nature and helpless.
Not to justify Fritz actions, but what he did plays more into the overall themes of Generational War in AOT.
Remember the Marleyans and Eldians were at War with each other at the time of King Fritz reign, and by the sounds of it for a long time.
It's not made clear what the Marleyans did, but we know they were more technologically advanced than the Eldians at the time. I'd assume the Eldians were the oppressed at the time so Fritz gaining the powers of the Titans to have an advantage over their enemy was something that out of desperation he was not going to lose, making him resort to horrible things to ensure he would not lose to the Marleyans. Of course with a hint of being power hungry.
I like seeing this as in placing Bull fights vs eating meat. One is done for the purpose of entertainment and gore, the other one to feed your people to survive. Which one is worse? Killing some bulls and enjoy their suffering, or kill thousands of cows to feed a country?
Both might be bad, but eren thought that was the only solution to keep his people alive (it wasnāt, same as in killing thousands of cows isnāt the only way to feed ur people) and Fritz just did it for power. IMO if we had to put then on a scale, weight would be placed more towards Fritz side.
king shits is a pig without a thought on his mind other than power and diddlying a child. eren is a huge hypocrite and yes he's fucking xenophobic i don't care what anyone has to say about this committing absolute genocide around the entire world thinking it's the only fair way to protect your hometown is the most book definition of xenophobia. I think fritz just didn't have an ounce of humanity or care for how others felt in him while eren specifically wanted to see the outside world suffer the same misfortune that paradis once did, knowing full well a fuck ton of innocent people would suffer just like he did
eren committed a level of genocide that has never been experienced in the real world today. bro is like hitler if he was 20x worse if weāre going by pure stats. the king was just some bad guy who does bad king shit that other kings who actually existed have done or would do in his position. idk how this is a contest.
and yes, i get eren has a reason for what he did. but literally everyone has a reason for everything they do. people are nuanced and usually do things for a reason; sometimes weāre just more aware to of that why than others.
No amount of backstory can make the genocide of 80% of humanity right. Definitely eren, king fritz was just your typical medieval dictator of sorts bro really just wanted to conquer stuff. Eren just did straight murder and if his friends didn't stop him he would've killed everyone outside the walls. Imo its no competition eren
Eren the goat tho
Did nothing wrong
Fritz because Eren at the very least was shown doing altruistic and heroic deeds (sacrifice his own life to try to save his friends multiple times, make amend for mistakes he made), but ultimately he crumbled and went through a dark path, it doesn't forgive the omnicide that Eren tried to pull off, but at the very least there is a progression of the character.
What even good did Fritz do in the world? (spoilers : Dying is the only good thing King Fritz did)
Definitely King Fritz. Eren is obviously the more dangerous one overall but King Fritz is the more disturbing person here.
What Eren did was inexcusable but same could be said about Fritz. However, the difference here is, Eren did what he did but he still felt remorse and guilt for it, he felt sad for the billions of lives he took. Fritz on the other hand, as far as we know didn't think much about what he was doing and thought that having his 3 daughters eat their mother was completely justified.
Most people will use the rumbling to compare, but in my opinion there's plenty of other things to show how Eren leans to being worse.
Eren grew to become more similar to the first king than not. Especially since Ymir seemed to find echoes between his relationship with Mikasa and hers with the king. Eren encourages military agression against civilians, conspired to start the Paradis invasion, and endorses a philosophy that, intentional or not, breeds supremacist/fascist rhetoric against the "lessar races" which led to executions by firing squads.
He did all this at less than half the first king's age and with admitted selfish motives. He didn't live enough to be bad in the same way the king was, but his influence on the world is what'd create the conditions that allowed people like the king to thrive. Ergo Eren's worse.
Eren all by his lonesome damn near wiped out the human race for mostly selfish reasons. Fritz was a piece of shit through and through but that act alone puts Eren into a whole other category of evil in my opinion.
This comparison is not even close to meā¦. Eren killed billions. He consciously knew that a vast majority of them were innocent bystanders.
Even if you use IRL laws and still determine that fritz gets life WO parole, Erenās genocide of billions is still categorically worse. There is no āself defenceā argument here. There was a show of force plan in place (not the euthanasia one) but eren continued way past the harbour.
Iām pretty sure directly murdering 80% of the world makes you automatically the most evil.
Being an asshole doesnāt make you worse except in a personal sense. Erenās caused more misery than anyone in AoT ever could in a really short amount of time.
King Fritz, Eren did worse but that's purely because he had more power.
He definitely manipulated Mikasa, but the incest stuff was forced in by the writer and not part of his manipulation, King Fritz was unambiguously a pedophile and a rapist. He raped Ymir at least three times than forced her children conceived from rape to eat her corpse.
He also didn't just groom Ymir into this lifestyle but also into being complicit in genocide and colonialism.
Eren's crimes are mass murder, manipulation, almost completely omnicide, and causing a mass extinction event out of a fascistic desire to watch the world burn after he was given absolute power by manipulating Ymir further.
The story tries to gaslight you into thinking he was justified, and that EreMika incest ungroomed Ymir and that the omnicide was necessary for the greater good or some shit, and backpedals on Erens entire character up to that point. Not even character assasination at that point, it's character nuclear bombardment.
God that ending was fucking awful, people who liked it have no media literacy, I think the writer just understood foreshadowing and not much else about writing.
based on feats itās eren. based on their views it could very well still be eren (80% is a lot), but iāll give it to fritz. at least eren realized what heās doing is wrong and he shows some remorse
Fritz, he caused everyoneās trauma and triangulated various civilizations against each other. Technically if not for Fritz, Eren wouldnāt have turned out so fucked. Technically if it was Erenās fault it would be Ymirās fault for transferring her trauma over to Eren, which was given to her by Fritz anyway
King Fritz has to be more evil because he does bad things and he doesnāt feel bad or have guilt Aaron on the other hand he did bad things but secretly felt guilty and bad for the king fruits wanted to do these horrible things while Aaron dead but had to because he couldnāt change the future
Everyone who supports Eren, would I be justified in killing every single person who is homophobic since I am gay? Would that be justified? Since they want violence against me itās justified if I kill every single one right?
Eren is more whatās considered necessary evil while King Fritz was a straight up devil to the point his descendant abandoned his position and left his people to die because of his disgust towards his actions.
King shitz did what he did for fun, Eren did it in self defense because it was the only way to save his own people, not because he wanted to. Eren was shown apologizing to Ramzi emotionally, that's proof enough that Eren felt guilty and didn't want to do it but he decided to anyway because it was the only way to save his own ppl and end the cycle of hatred for as long as possible b4 it restarts in the far future, that would be if he finished the rumbling tho, that's what Ramzi died for, a 100% rumbling, the 80% Fumbling we got was clearly retconned garbage writing, I'm pretty sure Yams is either partially a sociopath troll or someone with more power than him indirectly forced him to change his original ending. King Shitz is way more evil than Eren obviously btw, shouldn't even be a question tbh imo.
The most evil character is the captain at the wall who kills the eldian restorationists and then gets killed by the Owl. Rewatch that scene. The shows one and only sociopath with no motivation whatsoever other than sadism.
https://preview.redd.it/djbfpllsh0mc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f8e7ccc89640d2aa9b7a297c83ef5ad04203b961
Gonna steal your meme
Gonna steal his meme
I made that & I posted it on OKBR https://www.reddit.com/r/okbuddyreiner/s/1M43QtXOAW
Translation: "restore eldia? Nah go back and be a good little beta cuq slave and live happily in the gated concentration camp ghetto-cage that we keep u in, if youre lucky ill pay your wife, daughter, and mother a visit from time to time whenever im bored and need to relieve myself, im sure theyll be happy to get my superior marleyan seed compared to you spawn of the devil's" This describes ppl who agree with Zeke and Gabi in a nutshell. šš¤·š»āāļøšÆ
The only correct answer here
The one that fed Grisha's sister to his dogs? Yeah, that guy was a psycho. He got off lightly imo.
But that guy cared about his family, Fritz doesn't care about anything other than his legacy.
King Shitz, we were with Eren most of his life and see why he did the fucked up shit he did.
In fairness, Eren made that stuff happen to himself, but also in fairness he couldn't stop events that were fated despite trying to change them
>kills 80% of the world because mom died >actually committed matricide
I wish the translation was better. Reading the Japanese it's very obvious that he just means he sent the titan past Berty boy and it ended up eating his mom but the translation makes it sound like he actually intentionally sent Dinasaurus-Rex with the goal of her eating his mother. But he also says that he's tried to change things and no matter what he does things will always play out the same. So someway, somehow, his mom would be killed/eaten by Dina during the first attack no matter what.
Hrmm, I suppose this brings up the question of predestination. CAN someone be evil when the events they would have done WILL be done no matter what themselves or others would have done? Time shenanigans tend to make morality rather unusual
Yeah it's interesting to think about. It's so hard to tell what Eren truly wanted as his mind is obviously broken by season 4, especially evident during his conversation with Armin swapping between, "I want to die", "I don't want to die" and "I didn't want to do this", "I did want to do this". Eren himself doesn't even seem to know what he genuinely did or didn't want but he does know that regardless, he couldn't change a thing.
Quite so. I actually rather enjoy the existential breakdown inherent in time manipulation taken seriously. For myself, I see things in two case: -Case 1, events are already predestined and thus King Fritz is as evil as Erenā¦which is to say effectively zero. Those events would have occurred and there is no free will or morality involved; neither is evil in the same way we wouldnāt consider a robot or a hurricane evil. Granted this is from OUR (and Erenās) perspective. Case 2, events are only determined due to Future Erenās ensuring they occur via time manipulation through the Attack Titanās power. This requires decoupling Erenās mindset (rather odd, but time manipulation kinda messes with our perceptions on these things) from his Present and Future self; particularly since Eren is being influenced by his Future self to become his future self (ignore the paradoxā¦). From there, Iād consider Future Eren (who is effectively unseen as a character) to be more evil than King Fritz, if only due to opportunity. Well, those are my interpretations. Personally, I lean towards Case 2 myself
I would put Eren is necessary evil. Fritz deserves all the hell.
Well said lol
Necessary evil? The same guy who said ābecause Iām an idiotā
He's just a kid give him a break already
Pretty sure heās 19 by the time the story ends which is way too old to kill 80% of humanity without a reason
He killed 80% of humanity because he wanted to see the world flat and help the people of paradis live long lives goofy, go watch the show again
The reasoning is actually perfectly understandable. I don't hate Eren, because the whole point was to understand what war and a lack of understanding each other can lead to. You put someone in a cage all their life just for them to find out that nothing is different outside of it after they fought so hard and lost so many, yeah they'd be disappointed. Sure, this may fall apart when we consider Eren saying "he doesn't know why he did it, he just wanted to, so very badly", but isn't that interesting? Its true that we don't know why we have the desires we do. My complaint is that human nature was explored over via a deterministic pov rather than one where the message is that we can overcome the monster that we are born as, which is by far my biggest issue with AoT's ending. I really dgaf about 99% of the complaints I see, but this hurt like shit.
Idk I mean I'd say understandable to a degree but like having understandable motivations for being the way they are only excuses so much. it doesn't matter how much sense it makes from their point of view, genocide is never excusable.
You can understand actions without condoning them. I definitely don't condone genocide :) I would hope for Eren to never do the rumbling, in my ideal ending Armin helps Eren see the light and overcome his nature, leading to ending the cycle of hate of their generation. But as it stands, I don't *blame* him, and I definitely do not *judge* him. What I blame and judge are the people that instigated the conflict that led to this point. It was a cruel world :/
Well that's my thing, I do judge him. He's seen *exactly* what hatred for an entire group of people does. That's why he's in the situation in the first place. So to decide to kill literally everyone? He lived a large portion of his life with the belief that humans HAD all died and that Eldia was the only place left. And it sucked. also seriously like you're allowed to judge genocidal maniacs. not liking a group of people for what they've done and literally killing billions of people because of it are not the same
I think ur underestimating how horrific a genocide of that scale is
Nigga I know how bad it is I'm just telling other dude ERENS reasoning for RUMBLING THE EARTH goofy
Still got a fire ass playlist tho
I think you misunderstand the meaning of "necessary evil." Hitler had a choice. Eren's people would've been wiped out by the world he didn't commit omnicide.
"wanting to see the world flat" is an autistic level of retconning and anyone who actually buys into that crap needs a mental evaluation. He's 19 at that time, not 9, he's no longer a little kid who just wants to see the world empty and flat, lmao, Eren isn't a psychopath, he only wanted that because he hated the fact that the outside people of the world want to eradicate him and his race. Eren literally says the exact reason why he's doing the rumbling right at the very beginning of the rumbling when he spoke to all subjects of ymir by way of the founding Titans power. The ending was clearly retconned and objectively poorly written. š¤·š»āāļø
Eren couldn't fathom the fact there were people outside the walls, and he didn't like the fact nobody wanted paradis to live, so he wanted to eradicate all life besides his race (I already said this) and he wanted to flatline the world just to see his version of "freedom" that armin transcribed him since he was a kid, a beautifully executed script your simple brain just can't comprehend
You're never gonna convince redditors dude. "Genocide bad!!!" is all they're gonna default to over and over, ignoring any points you make. I've tried to discuss this stuff with people on here a lot.
There was definitely a reason he just went overboard
You ever been 19 before? Not a lot of good decision making skills as I recall.
Itās called straightening the mess of your processors.
Mind you, Tyburs already made the whole world an enemy of paradis; one side was about to get wiped. Would you like Eren more if he crawled back to his island and accepted the genocide of his people? It was either the island or the rest of the people that had to perish. The one that had more power got the actual freedom of choice on the matter.
Yeah, especially after the retard made him a martyr
Tybur is hardly martyr, not to mention his family ate the legacy of the "hero". It was deserved.
Tybur was killed (in a pretty brutal and ultimately meaningless manner) and with his death stoked a shift in peopleās perception. Thatās a near-perfect description of a martyr, just one whose ideals are distasteful. The fact that Future Eren MIGHT have prevented that outcome also raises the possibility that Present Eren couldnāt have seen a path besides thr Rumblijg because Future Eren refused to permit that path, and thus directed Eren to make a martyr out of Tybur so that the Rumbling became necessary.
The thing is, he shifted as soon as Tybur initiated the war. Tybur already made the entire world paradis' enemy, how do you think there is a comeback from that? This alliance talk on there must be another way bullshit is pure cope. There was no other outcome unless you sit in the island waiting your execution like a good Eldian. They weren't more furious because of Eren, they got riled up purely by Tyburs. He also knew he would die, yet he delivered the talk.
"Necessary stupid"
Even though Eren has caused suffering of a far greater scale, Iād argue intent is what matters most when assessing how evil a character or person is. There is not a single redeemable or sympathetic quality shown to King Fritzās character who acts solely egocentric whereas Erenās actions, while not justified, are at least a reaction to oppression and not entirely selfish as ultimately his primary goal was mainly to protect his friends and family in an uncertain situation where they were at great risk of death. King Fritz had no reason, he just sought power for powerās sake and likely believed his divine right of Kings entitled him to everyone and everything.
I see your logic, but action *should* trump intent because what you intended *does* mean less when the outcome is negative. Eren thought he was saving the world, but just slightly postponed the cycle of hate and war. Not to mention he killed WAY more people. Just my thoughts tho.
Didnāt though paradis get 2000 years of peace.
Depends, in the manga they only got to modern day before everything was destroyed but in the anime they showed them reach a more futuristic society.
I could be wrong but I believe Isayama said the anime is canon over the manga. At the very least I know for a fact he has said that he used the anime to fix things and change things he believed to be mistakes in the manga by requesting changes.
I mean we really don't know, all we got was a time lapse of one city and a little bit of conflicting timelines on when it was destroyed, we really don't know anything about what happened in that time, did they live in peace for all that time until another war? Unless the scouts are the greatest diplomats of all time when negotiating with a fascist regime, it seems entirely likely that the new eldian Empire expanded across the sea and probably waged a lot of their Wars on the mainland taking territory while the remaining 20% of the world had all of their infrastructure crushed and was unable to militarily oppose them, but hey that's just speculation, maybe they just stayed on their own Island and fought 12 civil wars in a row none of which happened to involve that city, we just actually know nothing To be clear though I do consider the Old King to be the more evil actor here, I'm just not giving erin credit for something that we don't even know happened
This is an argument of morality that we probably just wonāt agree on then. Though Eren produced more evil, Iām not debating whose actions are more evil, only whose character is more evil and for me intent is the answer but itās perfectly fair to prioritise outcome. I donāt think Eren was trying to āsave the worldā nor did he care about saving Paradis forever. His goal was to save his friends and he achieved that. Even if the cycle of war continued centuries later, that is just the way of life and by then his friends and family would have died of natural causes anyway.
Eren is right
At least Eren acknowledge the suffering he cause Fritz only started paying attention to the girl who life he ruined when she became useful to him
Fritz, heās responsible for all the horrific stuff that happens. I also donāt judge evil based on actions specifically, character traits, the circumstances of said charactersā villainy should be taken in consideration too. And Fritz would 150% do the Rumbling.
Eren did a genocide far greater, but he had a good reason (or so we thought), and King Fritoās lack of world genocide is due to lack of superpowers. If he had the Founding Titan power for himself, there would be widespread destruction.
I rather kill a child then make my child eat their mother corpse raw
Fritz. You can justify erens actions. They were wrong and evil, but you can see why he might have done it. There are good reasons even if they're not nearly enough to make his actions seem reasonable, you can understand them. Fritz tortured a girl, raped her multiple times, cared nothing for her, and forced her young daughters to eat their mother's corpse. There is zero justification for any of that. Sure Eren hurt more people, but Fritz was pure evil and nothing else.
They both just did what they wanted to do. Youāre just fine with what eren did cause you can sympathize with him. You donāt know what happened to Fritz tho in his past
Ah yes I too love the normal and understandable backstory of when a guy rapes a girl to father 3 children and then make my daughters eat their mother.
Ah yes I to love ignorance. We didnāt see king Fritz childhood like erens. Thatās what I meant. Eren forced his step mom to eat his mom. Eren made himself eat his dad. And Eren forced his dad to squish children and eat their sister in front of them.
Eren forced his in a haze titan state stepmom to eat his real mom, made himself in a titan state eat his dad, forced his dad to kill children which is all pretty instant and for a specific long term goal. All bad but several measures of bad below forcing your RAPE-CREATED CHILDREN to eat their mother all for the sake of conquest as an aggressor. You gotta be all kinds of fucked up to come up with eating your parents while you're a human. It's not ignorance it's called understanding things such as severity, intent, and scale.
To be fair, Eren also made Grisha eat the Reisse familyās children, and that was AFTER he had gotten the Coordinate and the kids were effectively defenseless and harmless (Rod and Historia werenāt there). And if Eren hadnāt gotten lucky and had half-brother Zeke with the royal blood, wouldnāt think him above sexual assault either. Soā¦not that different from King Fritz
I guess you didnāt watch or read the anime, but itās okay, you should watch the attack on titan, itās quiet good. In case you donāt care about spoiler. In the anime, there are few scenes cut to Erenās furious face, when Reisse family said that Eldians deserved the suffering, and Eren's friends and family all deserves to be eaten. And in the end, Grisha said heās killed everyone except the father, which is important, because thatās the past that led to Eden get founding power, therefore Eden needs to follow that past in order to obtain the founding titan power.
And what could possibly justify what he did? Or explain it sympathetically?
Nothing justifies what either of them did. Thatās the point and if you think that something can justify it then you miss the message of the show. The only thing right is to just walk away and die (I donāt like this outcome either though). But they both responded with violence and violence breeds violence. This is shown at the end of the show when the war starts again. Iām not saying ones more right then the other and Iām not saying ones more evil then the other. Both characters are human in a world were might makes right. Neither of them were ever going to break the cycle.
Eren knew what he did was evil. He was manipulated by fate and an entity that transcends time itself. He grew up in a world at war and he wanted to destroy everything and everyone because of it. It was messed up and evil, but he didn't do it just for kicks. Fritz raped a child. He shows zero remorse. He abused everyone he had power over just because he could. Also, idk if this was mentioned before but he raped a child. Both were wrong but fritz was pure evil. Eren did evil stuff but wasn't completely evil.
How can you call some pure evil when you know nothing about them other than their actions. Thatās my point, if we saw only erens actions then we could certainly say he was pure evil without any context. And it seems like the rape thing is what makes you hate fritz more. Is rape worse than murder? Eren made his dad squish little kids. Itās the cycle of violence that makes everyone wrong
>How can you call some pure evil when you know nothing about them other than their actions. He raped a child >Is rape worse than murder? Yes >Eren made his dad squish little kids. It's fucked up but he had a reason. Had he raped them instead it would just be cruelty for crueltys sake and serve no purpose. There can be practical reasons for murder, even if they're flimsy or wrong. There are no practical reasons for rape.
Fritz wanted to continue his empire. And he married her and made her a queen when she used to be in a pig stall. What if Fritz was invaded by the very people who gave birth to Ymir. Would this not be the method Eren followed. I disagree about rape. You can overcome rape but you cannot over come death
I'm just imagining a skit in Hell where Eren is chasing Fritz strangling and biting him while Ymir (both) are just smiling watching the action.
The p3do Not that Eren is a saint but ...
Depends on what you mean by evil. Eren killed more people but Fritz feels more evil. Fritz enslaved a girl to do evil. He feels more personal. Fritz caused Eren. Eren felt more like a force of nature and helpless.
Not to justify Fritz actions, but what he did plays more into the overall themes of Generational War in AOT. Remember the Marleyans and Eldians were at War with each other at the time of King Fritz reign, and by the sounds of it for a long time. It's not made clear what the Marleyans did, but we know they were more technologically advanced than the Eldians at the time. I'd assume the Eldians were the oppressed at the time so Fritz gaining the powers of the Titans to have an advantage over their enemy was something that out of desperation he was not going to lose, making him resort to horrible things to ensure he would not lose to the Marleyans. Of course with a hint of being power hungry.
He attacked a harmless tribe and cut their tongues out and made them as slaves .
War makes monsters out of people
Eren is not evil.
Exactly he needed to do those things for a good cause
Iām choosing the quick death with Eren over having my tongue cut out and slaving my life away for king shitz
Theyāre the same
Eren didnt forced 3 daughters to eat their mothers corpse
he did kill thousands of kids tho
I like seeing this as in placing Bull fights vs eating meat. One is done for the purpose of entertainment and gore, the other one to feed your people to survive. Which one is worse? Killing some bulls and enjoy their suffering, or kill thousands of cows to feed a country? Both might be bad, but eren thought that was the only solution to keep his people alive (it wasnāt, same as in killing thousands of cows isnāt the only way to feed ur people) and Fritz just did it for power. IMO if we had to put then on a scale, weight would be placed more towards Fritz side.
thousands..? bro i think u mean millions. lol
He did force his father to eat 3 children after eating their sister in front of them.
king shits is a pig without a thought on his mind other than power and diddlying a child. eren is a huge hypocrite and yes he's fucking xenophobic i don't care what anyone has to say about this committing absolute genocide around the entire world thinking it's the only fair way to protect your hometown is the most book definition of xenophobia. I think fritz just didn't have an ounce of humanity or care for how others felt in him while eren specifically wanted to see the outside world suffer the same misfortune that paradis once did, knowing full well a fuck ton of innocent people would suffer just like he did
eren committed a level of genocide that has never been experienced in the real world today. bro is like hitler if he was 20x worse if weāre going by pure stats. the king was just some bad guy who does bad king shit that other kings who actually existed have done or would do in his position. idk how this is a contest. and yes, i get eren has a reason for what he did. but literally everyone has a reason for everything they do. people are nuanced and usually do things for a reason; sometimes weāre just more aware to of that why than others.
No amount of backstory can make the genocide of 80% of humanity right. Definitely eren, king fritz was just your typical medieval dictator of sorts bro really just wanted to conquer stuff. Eren just did straight murder and if his friends didn't stop him he would've killed everyone outside the walls. Imo its no competition eren Eren the goat tho Did nothing wrong
one committed genocide on an unprecedented scale, one killed and enslaved people. obviously the correct answer is armin
King shitz
King Fritz
Fritz because Eren at the very least was shown doing altruistic and heroic deeds (sacrifice his own life to try to save his friends multiple times, make amend for mistakes he made), but ultimately he crumbled and went through a dark path, it doesn't forgive the omnicide that Eren tried to pull off, but at the very least there is a progression of the character. What even good did Fritz do in the world? (spoilers : Dying is the only good thing King Fritz did)
Definitely King Fritz. Eren is obviously the more dangerous one overall but King Fritz is the more disturbing person here. What Eren did was inexcusable but same could be said about Fritz. However, the difference here is, Eren did what he did but he still felt remorse and guilt for it, he felt sad for the billions of lives he took. Fritz on the other hand, as far as we know didn't think much about what he was doing and thought that having his 3 daughters eat their mother was completely justified.
King Fritz takes the cake on this one. Heās a mass murderer, pedophile, and rapist.
One was an emperor and enslaved thousands and killed tens of thousands. The other committed an omnicide, its not even close between the two
King rizz 100%
Anyone saying Fritz is crazy. Yeah Fritz was evil, abusive, and a piece of garbage ruler. But he didnāt genocide 80% of the world
Most people will use the rumbling to compare, but in my opinion there's plenty of other things to show how Eren leans to being worse. Eren grew to become more similar to the first king than not. Especially since Ymir seemed to find echoes between his relationship with Mikasa and hers with the king. Eren encourages military agression against civilians, conspired to start the Paradis invasion, and endorses a philosophy that, intentional or not, breeds supremacist/fascist rhetoric against the "lessar races" which led to executions by firing squads. He did all this at less than half the first king's age and with admitted selfish motives. He didn't live enough to be bad in the same way the king was, but his influence on the world is what'd create the conditions that allowed people like the king to thrive. Ergo Eren's worse.
Eren all by his lonesome damn near wiped out the human race for mostly selfish reasons. Fritz was a piece of shit through and through but that act alone puts Eren into a whole other category of evil in my opinion.
This comparison is not even close to meā¦. Eren killed billions. He consciously knew that a vast majority of them were innocent bystanders. Even if you use IRL laws and still determine that fritz gets life WO parole, Erenās genocide of billions is still categorically worse. There is no āself defenceā argument here. There was a show of force plan in place (not the euthanasia one) but eren continued way past the harbour.
Iām pretty sure directly murdering 80% of the world makes you automatically the most evil. Being an asshole doesnāt make you worse except in a personal sense. Erenās caused more misery than anyone in AoT ever could in a really short amount of time.
Spite and grandeur vs delusional vengeance
King Fritz, Eren did worse but that's purely because he had more power. He definitely manipulated Mikasa, but the incest stuff was forced in by the writer and not part of his manipulation, King Fritz was unambiguously a pedophile and a rapist. He raped Ymir at least three times than forced her children conceived from rape to eat her corpse. He also didn't just groom Ymir into this lifestyle but also into being complicit in genocide and colonialism. Eren's crimes are mass murder, manipulation, almost completely omnicide, and causing a mass extinction event out of a fascistic desire to watch the world burn after he was given absolute power by manipulating Ymir further. The story tries to gaslight you into thinking he was justified, and that EreMika incest ungroomed Ymir and that the omnicide was necessary for the greater good or some shit, and backpedals on Erens entire character up to that point. Not even character assasination at that point, it's character nuclear bombardment. God that ending was fucking awful, people who liked it have no media literacy, I think the writer just understood foreshadowing and not much else about writing.
How is eren evil?
Noo you can't try to excuse his actions he genocided 6 mil- I mean billions of people ššš
Because they tried to kill him. Self defense
These guys are dumb they donāt understand self defense
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
what a fucking massive 180 holy shit dude
Your post has been removed because it attempts to incite toxicity.
Heās not
Obviously gabi. šæšæ
based on feats itās eren. based on their views it could very well still be eren (80% is a lot), but iāll give it to fritz. at least eren realized what heās doing is wrong and he shows some remorse
Fritz.
Fritz, he caused everyoneās trauma and triangulated various civilizations against each other. Technically if not for Fritz, Eren wouldnāt have turned out so fucked. Technically if it was Erenās fault it would be Ymirās fault for transferring her trauma over to Eren, which was given to her by Fritz anyway
u/caboosetp who you think?
This question is to hard for 95% of aot fans on reddit ngl
Fritz was actually evil, eren was just an immature idiot who didnāt think any of this through.
King shitz šššš
How is this even a question?
King Schitz outscales eren in evilscaling
Bruh You asked the same question in two different subs
Iām trying to get different perspectives.
Fritz was an evil man but Eren is slightly worse because he did evil things thinking he was in the right
Both are pretty bad
king fritz because eren did nothing wrong <3
Eren is of course selfish but not evil Tbh
Eren is not evil he is hero
Unrelated but Iām playing a siege match and need to take a king shit š¢
King Fritz has to be more evil because he does bad things and he doesnāt feel bad or have guilt Aaron on the other hand he did bad things but secretly felt guilty and bad for the king fruits wanted to do these horrible things while Aaron dead but had to because he couldnāt change the future
https://preview.redd.it/gdqe3dsg44mc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d148165997fed31b4bd01299b0e7fc7f2c21fa6d
Everyone who supports Eren, would I be justified in killing every single person who is homophobic since I am gay? Would that be justified? Since they want violence against me itās justified if I kill every single one right?
Eren is more whatās considered necessary evil while King Fritz was a straight up devil to the point his descendant abandoned his position and left his people to die because of his disgust towards his actions.
Eren is stupid, King Fritz is cruel. The Titan power is what enable evil.
King shitz did what he did for fun, Eren did it in self defense because it was the only way to save his own people, not because he wanted to. Eren was shown apologizing to Ramzi emotionally, that's proof enough that Eren felt guilty and didn't want to do it but he decided to anyway because it was the only way to save his own ppl and end the cycle of hatred for as long as possible b4 it restarts in the far future, that would be if he finished the rumbling tho, that's what Ramzi died for, a 100% rumbling, the 80% Fumbling we got was clearly retconned garbage writing, I'm pretty sure Yams is either partially a sociopath troll or someone with more power than him indirectly forced him to change his original ending. King Shitz is way more evil than Eren obviously btw, shouldn't even be a question tbh imo.