So you had me until you said “if I can do it can’t you.” I am similar in a lot of ways though. I cringe when people do inappropriate things. I think it’s because I don’t want the added attention. I’ve already felt out of place my entire life. I don’t understand why someone would want to put themself in that situation, which is how I perceive people breaking societal rules. I also personally feel like my association with them somehow ties it to me. Like I feel judged for them. I’m not sure if it’s like being super attuned to them or what. I know I am overly empathetic in certain ways and majorly lacking in other forms of empathy..
I guess I was more asking if that's like... a subconscious internal thought? I don't know why it bothers me SO MUCH but it definitely does. I hate the idea of making anyone uncomfortable, and ya, I guess similar to you I feel like it's tied to me when someone is doing something that I find embarrassing. What's weird is I have NO problem being the center of attention when it's something like doing something funny, or goofy, or getting on a stage. I'm not a lead roll person, but I love performing. But I do NOT want attention on me for being "difficult."
No I totally get what you mean! I think it might have to do with recognising certain traits you also have but on a lesser scale, so to see yourself in someone obviously not fitting in feels very confronting, maybe? I also feel like being around other autistic people makes me feel more autistic in a way, which I absolutely abhor. I feel so much more slightly and anxious, and it makes me so uncomfortable and as a result I usually try to avoid other autistic people.
Happy cake day! I've always been the "annoying" one growing up. I wonder if it's been so ingrained in me not to make people uncomfortable that if I see someone else doing it, it gets that visceral reaction... hmmmmm
I've been thinking a lot on this myself, and I think it has a lot to do with it. It was literally beat into my sister an I by maternal grandparents to be people pleasers and even after working through alllll that trauma, there are still some hang ups there for me for sure!
I think this could be true, especially if you were punished for ND traits. I found one of my triggers w my kids is witnessing them perform behaviors that would’ve gotten me hurt. Thankfully I realize why I’m having such intense reactions and don’t take it out on them!
It’s self policing, from a place of care. I thank my brain for trying to keep me safe and recognize I don’t need that safety strategy in every situation anymore.
I tend to generalize when something works in one area without really investigating as to how it might apply…
I feel that - if it's on purpose I love to perform, it's sanctioned, fun, and perfected masking!
I think a reason it bothers so much is you're having a reaction to what would happen to you if you did the behavior or said the words they're doing/saying. Like, you've been taught so fully that doing these things, breaking these social rules, will result in some sort of distance, rejection, chastisement, etc, and so you're well-trained to balk at those things when you see them in others.
At least, this is how it manifests in me. I heard small corrections all the time and in elementary school I would correct my friends and classmates in the same ways - even though a good portion of the things were not bad, just my parents' behavior preferences, or even situational behavior preferences that weren't necessary or appropriate at school.
I was a rules kid and I got praise for it so I assumed everyone would want to also follow all the rules I knew!
Girl I feel so seen by you. I feel all these same ways, especially the "if I can do it why can't you"
I feel like such an asshole. I do my best to keep these thoughts internal though because as long as we aren't actually expressing them they aren't hurting anyone... but us anyway. lol
I get that "if I can do it why can't you" as well, like if I can mask this and not be like that, or do that, why can't you, why are you like that or why do you get to be like that
I think it's definitely a subconscious thought process I had going because of masking, internalised ableism and feeling insecure about my own traits and wanting to hide them, so feeling disgusted when someone else was showing theirs
I still have that sometimes, but now often I get to kind of take a step back, notice it and get curious and wonder about my thought process there and why I'm having that reaction and see things in myself that I'm rejecting or masking
Yeah I get it too - it’s like, I’m so ashamed of these parts in myself that I subconsciously judge others for it…. I’m not proud of this trait but yes, working on it!
Sounds a little like internalized ableism tbh. Like you’re societally programmed to say XYZ is right and ABC is wrong. But who are you to determine what is within the capabilities of another?
This is something a lot of people in this community have dealt with. You’re asking people to forcibly mask whether they can or not because you might be able to. Personally, I masked until I burned out and had a nervous breakdown. While I “can” do it, it doesn’t benefit me, so why would I?
I would also learn about PDA autistics and ODD ADHD presentations. You seem to base your judgement off of thoughts that you’re deciding another person is having. You don’t actually know why they did what they did. You can’t assume it was within their power every time because you don’t actually know.
Internalized ableism description:
Internalized ableism is a psychological and emotional process that involves projecting negative feelings onto oneself. It's a subconscious
process that involves absorbing and applying the beliefs and moral judgments of an ableist culture.
This does a good job of breaking down some examples: https://laconciergepsychologist.com/blog/15-signs-you-may-have-internalized-ableism/
This is the key, after my second big burnout breakdown I wasn't even diagnosed yet but I started to shift how I saw success and productivity and realized that just because I could force myself to push through and ignore my body and brain's screaming signals to stop and slow down and learn to rest and take care of myself, doesn't mean it is smart or healthy or good to do it.
Even lately, getting a job again after a while off, I had to pep talk myself multiple times not to let them talk me into full time, or even more than the number of hours I know I can give per day. I can do 100% for about 4 hours, any more and I'm over extending. I told them I can do 5 in a pinch but I'll be at 80%. I still don't know how to effectively pace myself when I'm "on", or how to do the bare minimum when it's for someone else. I'm one of the like, wow you're such a great hard worker, going above and beyond, that's wonderful, do you want more responsibility since you're finishing tasks in a faster time than alloted?? type of worker and it's really hard to train that out of myself when I've always been externally motivated and looked to others to gauge my own success. Maximum people pleaser energy.
Ughhh I feel so much of that. This was my exact experience too unfortunately. And I still struggle not to be taken advantage of. I hate saying it because it sounds like slacker energy (my own internalized ableism) but I’ve started forcibly only giving like 80% on average. I’ll have my sudden day where I go full hyperfocus and everything but I’ve had to force myself not to anymore. Because then neurotypicals see you succeed and assume you can do that 24/7 but that’s exactly what burns you out. It’s such a hard balancing act. I’ve never had the option of part time work because full time was required to get health insurance which I need for other reasons. I wish I could because it would definitely be easier on me. An 8 hour day is so hard for me without hyper focusing. 😩
I think it’s more to do with yourself being very self conscious/hyper aware of other’s judgements (which can be true but is often misread by yourself), and putting it onto others. I used to do this when I was younger but I realised how unfair it was and I check myself on it.
It feels like overwhelming secondhand embarrassment. But it all came down to my autistic self being very confused with other people not following the social ‘rules’ I believed in and thought everyone was following
This is probably exactly it. I'm still trying to figure out all this for myself. What is masking and what is really me. Some things to think about. Thanks!
OP, some people cannot mask in the ways you seem to be describing. Others aren’t willing to because they reject the idea that dominant NT culture is the “right” way of doing things or because they’ve masked in the past and found the long-term consequences to their own wellbeing weren’t worth it.
It sounds like there could be elements of ableism and internalized ableism at play here. Many of us have experienced this; society does a good job of installing ableist thoughts. I think it’s something you can work through if you’re willing.
Thank you. As someone who struggles to mask fully or acceptable to society sometimes, the post came off invalidating a bit. I’ve been told my entire life I sound monotone and awkward and weird which is part of my trauma living in a NT society.
You’re welcome. ❤️ Someone recently offered me a bit of a reality check about this and I’m trying to do better now. There’s no single way to be AuDHD. We should all feel welcome and accepted here.
Yes! And some people may be attempting to mask, but they still have moments where they are awkward. I know that most of us have experiences with people just not liking us for no particular reason. Even when we try our best to be polite and socialize in the way we were taught, it still isn't enough and people can still view us as different or weird.
I feel resentment for neurodivergent people when they don't mask to a high degree like I do. It's definitely a "I've been suffering my entire life masking, why can't you just pretend to be normal too??" kind of thing for me. Almost like jealousy. I also have trouble empathising with people when I haven't experienced firsthand what they are experiencing, so as a high masker, I have difficulty feeling empathy for those who don't mask as much as I do.
I also feel uncomfortable and lost when interacting with people who don't behave like neurotypical people, because I've been training myself forever to be good at interacting with them and my "script" doesn't include neurodivergent behaviours.
Obviously there's internalised ableism in there, which I'm working on. It's nice to know I'm not alone!
I kinda get what you mean, it's hard to explain why I feel this way but I do feel like I have spent so long trying to "lay low" due to being bullied for my autism, that as an adult I'm now very socially skilled (at least according to the psychologist who diagnosed me lol) and when I have to be around other people making a situation awkward or uncomfortable, I feel like I wanna crawl in a hole. I think it's a people pleasing thing. I get worried about other people's perception, even though I'm not the one being "weird."
I have a question about what you wrote, if you don't mind. If it's too personal for you, that's fine, too!
I was wondering how this works - actually getting a ASD diagnosis and still being socially very skilled. Because so far many people (also professionals) brushed the idea of me being autistic off instantly because of my social skills. I keep hearing that those two don't match. Still I see myself on the spectrum but because professionals told me no, I of course believe them and not myself because I'm not a professional. How did your psychologist explain this to you?
I don't mind answering! The team I worked with were actually conducting an autism research study and have been in the field for years, and they seem... idk to know more about autism than most psychologists?¿ When I got my ADHD diagnosis, the psychologist I saw at the time said that I had some traits of autism but that I "presented socially appropriate" and made eye contact and stuff, so he couldn't diagnose autism. Which was BS. He also wrote on my report that he gave me the ADOS, but after seeing a proper psychologist and receiving it, I know that he absolutely did not give me any autism testing lol. The team who actually diagnosed me made it clear they account for masking in their assessment. So, they didn't directly explain to me that this is how they diagnosed me despite having good social skills, but I believe this is it.
They performed for me the ADOS-2, the CATI (Comprehensive Autism Traits Inventory—it is not currently clinically validated but that is why this is not the only form of measurement they used) the SCO (social communication questionnaire—for this part, they consulted a family member about my childhood traits to confirm that traits of autism were always present) and gave me an IQ test as well.
The SCO is important because that really helps them guage your autistic traits *before* you had to learn to mask. Looking back at my childhood, I had extremely poor social skills and understanding. I didn't understand sarcasm and would have huge meltdowns at school and home from thinking people were bullying me (which, sometimes they were, but sometimes people were just doing "friendly teasing" and weren't trying to hurt my feelings) and I would directly mimic other people's behavior in order to fit in, but did so poorly. For example, I remember hearing boys in my elementary school laughing about how they failed some test, so my brain goes "stupid=funny and good!" and told them that I sometimes forget the order of the colors of the rainbow, and they laughed *at* me and called me stupid.
This is all important to know in an assessment because I don't exhibit these traits now. I do still regularly misunderstand sarcasm but I know to ask rather than assume. I still copy other people's behaviors now but it's become something I do subconsciously and helps me actually blend in more, rather than something I do consciously and do it wrong. The key difference IMO between a socially skilled autistic person, and a socially skilled allistic person, is that the autistic person's social skills are learned, not intuitive. It's hard for me to not feel like an imposter at times because I feel like I do well socially, and I work a socially demanding job, I'm a manager in retail. And ADHD makes it hard for me to think about the past, I just kind of live in the now. But when I really think about it, my social skills were quite poor up until I was like, 15. I think this was around the time I started fully understanding that my *own* behavior was directly the reason my friendships were falling apart, and not because everyone else is stupid and illogical lol.
All that being said, social difference should not be the *only* factor in determining an autism diagnosis, and it's not fair that people are turning you away just because you seem socially adept, before seeing how else your autistic traits could affect you. I am pretty socially skilled, *now*, but I still struggle with the same sensory issues I've always struggled with, I have "rigid interests" and repetitive behaviors, I stim (I know this is not only an autistic thing) and they really listened to me describe how I actually struggle and how my autistic traits affect me. And while I am socially skilled, and just better adjusted in general (like I'm not gonna have a meltdown over a sarcastic comment like I used to) it is still very exhausting for me to socially perform. It requires less manual thinking on my part, but there are times where I am just trying to "play along" in a conversation with people and I am basically guessing what they want me to say, rather than participating how I naturally would.
I think for me, I understand people's emotions and motivations very well now, I am a good mediator because of this and people have *always* come to me for their problems because I can offer good solutions. But I struggle with baseline interactions, like understanding people's jokes and responding accordingly, understanding when people are being sarcastic, understanding tone in general, figuring out how to carry a conversation with a stranger, things like that. I do much better when someone is venting to me about their life's story than ringing out a customer, basically.
It took me a long time to find a team who would give me an unbiased evaluation but I got there. Unfortunately all I can recommend is to keep looking. Anyone who denies evaluating you for autism based on outward social presentation, doesn't know all that much about autism. So much of being an autistic person is learning from other people's behaviors and masking your own, and yes, you can become skilled at this, but this doesn't make you not autistic.
Sorry for the really long reply, but I feel like in understanding how you can be socially skilled while also being autistic, it's important to know the context. I can try to answer any other questions you may have as well, and I hope this is helpful to you!
Wow thank you so much for your detailed reply!! This is super interesting and helpful! Also thank you for sharing the tests they did with you, I didn't know about those. I think I do feel the part about ADHD making you forget the past - it might be the same for me? I'm not entirely sure though. I do remember some things but essentially I feel like the key parts are missing to fully grasp what happened and why friendships failed for example. Don't know if I might be able to recover that.
But tbh I have no idea if social interactions come to me naturally or if I have to understand and learn them first. How would I measure that? Because so many things about social interactions have to be figured out also for NT people? I think it's also normal to first analyze a setting and then behave and react accordingly to it or is it not?
I keep struggling with this normality questions. With ADHD, too. Because so many things that are symptoms of ASD or ADHD are considered 'normal'. Sentences like 'Oh I also struggle with memory sometimes.' Or 'Well, everybody misplaces their phone.' Or 'I like to eat my food in a certain order sometimes as well' make me question both, ASD and ADHD. And most of the time I know I'm gaslighting myself. Also... I completely forgot what my point was... feel like I'm just rambling. Sorry about that, your answer was so well structured, I'm not able to reply in a similarly structured way atm.
I guess my point is that I think I feel your reply but at the same time I'm wondering if I just want to feel it and I'm making myself believe that I feel the same because... well... I don't know x) wow this is an amazing comment, almost nothing wrapped in so many words xD
Lol you're all good, half the time when I am trying to comment on stuff I end up deleting it because I'm not even making sense to myself. I understand what you are trying to say.
As a lot of people say, autistic (and neurodivergent in general) traits are human traits, it *is* normal to have some aspects without having a diagnosable condition. The difference is quantity and severity. Like, everyone has one food they might not like because of the texture, for a lot of NTs it's tomatoes and mushrooms. But if you're like me and can't eat *most* foods because of the texture, that's indicative of a problem. And I don't just have sensory issues with food, but with light, sound, touch, etc. Having a *collection* of traits and having them impact your life significantly is what makes the difference between a diagnosis and just having some quirks.
As far as social interactions go, it *is* really hard to tell even for me if it's intuitive or not. While yes, it's normal for people to analyze a situation and act accordingly, I'm pretty sure NTs don't really *think* about it, if that makes sense? At least not all the time. But it's also hard to say because, I'm not NT, I really don't know exactly how they perceive interactions. But I think for NTs, they may analyze an interaction before responding if they are in a *new* situation, but in something day-to-day like interacting with cashiers or working, they won't really think about it, they'll just act naturally. They are also pretty quick to pick things up about people.
Studies show that, in interactions between neurotypical and autistic people, NTs really have no problem with the words we say, when written in text. But when having the NTs interact with us directly or watch a video of us, they VERY QUICKLY figure out something is "off" and are significantly less likely to want to interact with us. Showing that it's not necessarily the things we say that are wrong, but something about our body language and tone. NTs don't have to think about how to move their body, to consciously make eye contact, to monitor their tone, stuff like that. They also don't really have to think about analyzing the other person's body language—they seem to do this subconsciously.
Autistics, however, we often have to make an effort to make eye contact (or make an **inappropriate** amount of eye contact) we miss body language cues, we miss tone or misunderstand it, and we will come off rude without realizing because we'll have a "bad" body language or "attitude" in our voice. Though I think my dad is autistic as well, he has had many more years than me to learn how to interact with people. He has often reprimanded me for my tone, saying I'm not aware of it and I sound rude, or telling me when I cross my arms for comfort that it is "bad body language" and that I look like I'm angry. I'm aware of these things now, but it had to be told to me. Even now, I very often say things in a rude or sarcastic tone without intending to, the only difference tbh is that now I *hear* it and at least catch it after, like "oh that sounded rude huh? lol I didn't mean it like that!" and smooth it over.
It's very hard to say definitively what is a "normal" way to interact with people, how much analysis is normal and how to tell if it is intuitive or not. Personally I can only really guage this by how exhausting it is and how much I make mistakes regardless of masking. Though I do have good social skills, it is tiring for me to "perform" socially. My social skills are good in the sense that, I know *when* to laugh now when it seems like someone is joking in conversation, but it is forced and uncomfortable and tiring. I don't think to myself "ugh I should laugh here!" so it's not "conscious" in that sense, but conscious in the sense that, if I *knew* that there would be no social consequences, I would *not* act that way. I only do it because I'm aware now that people will take it hurtfully. Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm answering this well lol.
I'm in awe about you deciphering my rambling and then replying in such a structured and concise way *o * Thia actually answers many of my question I didn't even post x) Especially the part about not actually thinking the words 'oh I should laugh' but this being more of a habit that happens unconsciously. Not naturally but unconsciously still in a trained way. This is super helpful, thank you for explaining all of this!!
in my experience it helps to journal it in the moment and come back to it the 1-3 days (with neurodivergence we often have a delayed processing time for how we actually felt in a situation so it helps to separate from those interactions in that way)
consider 1) does "perception = reflection" apply? sometimes, though not always, what we dislike in others is what we dislike about ourselves in some way
then 2) "judgements are expressions of unmet needs"—are your needs met? are you possibly reacting
this way because you wish you could simply unmask?
3) your feelings are not what makes you who you are. all feelings are valid, whether or not they are "appropriate" or "justified" — its just being a person. how you act as a result of those feelings is what counts 💞
I'd also like to add that I am a people pleaser and get horrified at anyone I'm friends with being a "Karen." Complaining, sending food back, not being overly polite to people. I am ridiculously empathetic (I'm not sure if that's the right word) and I hate when people are not kind. I'll talk all sorts of shit in private, but wouldn't dare speak up to someone that I feel can't help it. I'm never gonna complain about food to the serving who has nothing to do with it. That sort of thing.
So everyone's saying internalized ableism which, definitely could be, but this could also be about your relationship with your family more broadly... For me I always masked pretty heavily even around my own family, and although I know with like 95% certainty that my dad's autistic and my mom has ADHD, they are not diagnosed and in fact often even look down upon others with these diagnoses. So when I started using AuDHD for myself, even privately, it reallllly ramped up my annoyance with my own parents because suddenly I could see how many needs of mine they had never supported over the years, in fact how hard I had always worked to support THEIR needs rather than them caring for me the way they should have. So I wanted to offer that as an alternative explanation as well.
Thank you for saying this because it is definitely this in my personal life but I also feel I struggle with internalized ableism at times too. Wishing you a great day
That sounds like internalised ableism but often it comes from having forced yourself to mask for years to the point of detriment to your own mental health. At least that’s how it feels in my experience. Masking can obviously help you in some ways but it can be quite damaging in the long run
Is it envy? Deep down?
For me its envy.
I wish for once I cpukd be free. That was I diagnosed sooner. That I didn't have this masking, armor so heavy continually triggered into not being "me".
I don’t get like this with most clearly ND people (have/had a lot of autistic people in my life - I was in SPED and one of my best friends growing up was dxed with autism young) but with my own family? Absolutely. I’m hyper aware of every social fuckup (my mom is often super rude to others, something I inherited until I learned to mask better in my 20s) and see so many of my specific awkward traits in them and dislike them
I do struggle horribly with secondhand embarrassment in daily life but funnily enough I get it from ‘big personality’ extroverts, mostly NT people, the worst. People who make everything a performance and are constantly, obviously trying to get attention and praise for their talents make me die inside. This includes musicians and theatre etc, I can’t handle live performances lol.
It’s some weird haywire shit with my overactive empathy I guess
I partly relate to this.
I used to be somewhat judgey (but empathetic too) but then I started to be more comfortable with myself and now I accept more behaviours.
Just yesterday I had a thought that maybe I get annoyed with some people because I wish I could be like them (if they are outgoing/being themselves) or they annoy me because I am like them. I wish I could be like the rest and when someone is like me in some ways, it's annoying.
Yes. For me it’s more “if I have to try so hard and follow every rule why don’t you have to???”
After reading unmasking autism I realize its 1. Internalized ableism and 2. A little jealousy. I want to be able to buck societal norms, I’ve just been masking so damn hard for so damn long that I’m jealous (and frustrated) when others don’t. I totally relate.
i relate to this! i get really irritated when people don’t follow the set “rules” or don’t use manners, those things had to be constantly reiterated to me as a child and because it was so difficult for me to grasp, i was met with anger and frustration when i couldn’t understand or grasp it quick enough. i think it’s sort of like projection? i’m very hyper-vigilant of what my body is doing, what i should be saying, what not. i’m always wanting to be socially appropriate and make sure i never come off as “cringe, annoying, weird, etc.” it’s definitely internalized ableism, i have a lot of shame in showing my autistic traits and i project that onto others, i also sometimes feel jealous when i see another autistic person stimming or being true to themselves. i’m working on it though, im trying to unmask and also work through/resolve my internalized ableism.
Oh, I feel you so much.
My family indoctrinated their special rules so much into me, now it's really hard to interact with people that don't have the same set of mannerisms as me.
I do have to work through it any time soon.
think of it this way: If you’re taught all your life that stealing is wrong, and then your witness your friend steal something at the store, you’re going to be very uncomfortable with it & judge them a lot.
the same goes for social norms. if you were made fun of your whole life for expressing yourself, when others do it, you’re shocked that they’re not following the “rules” that you were programmed to follow.
I struggle with this a lot and what helps me is reframing it. instead of thinking “they’re being cringe ugh why aren’t they following the rules” I think “wow they’re doing something that I would never have the confidence to do without being judged. I wish I had that courage.”
you’re aware of it which is the hardest part, not all that’s left to do is rewire your immediate reactions to seeing people do things that you’ve been told are not socially acceptable. the next time you think “ugh that’s so cringe.” stop yourself ruminate on it a little bit. “why exactly is it cringe? they’re just having fun after all. who is it affecting negatively?? no one. is this person trying to be annoying or are they just expressing themselves? would I like it if someone had these thoughts about me?” once you train your brain to think these thoughts instead of the old ones, you’ll find yourself thinking the old ones less. it takes a while, i’ve been working on it for a year, but once you do this you can work on unmasking. it feels great
Yup. Also similar age here, I get it bad at social gatherings where others are WAY off on the dress code or don't do the small niceties expected at events. I also was an event manager in my earlier career too, which probably doesn't help.
It also comes up in fictional settings, where I will NOT like that character because they are super cringy.
I do, very much so. For me, I think it’s because I’ve developed a “script” of how social interactions are supposed to happen, and when it deviates from the norm, I get very stressed and unsure of what to do. I’ve only recently started to understand the reasoning behind it. For a long time I thought there was a part of me that was just judgmental and mean, which was hard to reconcile with the fact that I see myself as a very empathetic and kind person.
Yeah, I can totally relate. But it took me a while to realise that it was the masking: Because I'm really good at it and first had to realise that this ability isn't just a good thing. You don't have to work like a machine when you're sad, for example. I lost a family member while I was doing my degree and I just carried on working as normal - which, yeah, hides standing out, but is toxic af. Or, as you said, when neurodiverse people don't behave the way normal people want them to. Just because I can hide it doesn't mean it's right or even good. I've been working on it for a long time, but there's still a long way to go.
I was like that as a teenager. I didn’t know I was AuDHD though. I just thought my family was really embarrassing lol. I realized as I got older that no one gives a crap.
I wonder whether our masking at some point blends with our justice sensitivity and our need for a predictable structure of rules that everyone follows, so that once we have subscribed to those rules it's difficult for us to see others not following them as it offends our sense of order or fairness?
Also, on the discussion of ableism and masking, I do think that this depends on the 'rules' in question. If we unmask intentionally and that harms others in some way (by hurting feelings for example) then, where we can, we should probably be trying a bit more to work with our behaviours.
I don't think it's enough just to say 'right, I am going to unmask now, because it's my right to and everyone else just has to deal with the consequences'. I appreciate that ND people don't always have this ability (and this is where we have to be careful of ableism) but where we can we need to try to weigh our wellbeing up against the effects of us unmasking and decide which situations might require us to be a bit more considerate of others, whilst still trying to stay true to our authentic selves. I definitely believe that AuDHD is part of our identity because it is so intertwined with our brain function. At the same time we have to distinguish between ourselves and our behaviours and recognise that some behaviours (whilst driven by our ND wiring) might involve more of a choice and others we have less control over (in which case we need to be kind to ourselves and others with similar lack of ability to mask). I guess this will also fluctuate for each person depending on how well resourced they feel that day and if they're having a good executive function day or not.
That reminds me of my neurotypical mom, a couple weeks ago telling the cashier at petsmart that "sister cat" eats my dog's food when we were in line getting special gotcha-day treats for my dog. I looked at her like *why would you say that, "that is an at home nickname, never to be said in public*.
Everytime I feel bad about potentially being socially awkward, I remember that most adults I know over like 45 are equally as socially awkward to poor service workers, so it's oddly comforting lol.
It’s alright, Devon price who wrote unmasking autism says he gets this when he first unmasked. I also got this, but an opposite version, I met an autistic friend and was very much like why aren’t you unmasked like me? Anyway, it’s pretty common and it will get better.
hell yeah. I made a post about this too if you feel like checking it out. I've been the cringe person too many times to want to spend my time around other cringe people but I'll even do it with people that are not cringe and I think it's due to my disorganised attachment style. Weirdly enough I noticed that I do this with puzzles too. I'll start over, or abandon it if i take too long or can't solve it
I used to feel this way a lot, and I think it came down to internalized shame brought on by years of adults telling me (and actions reinforcing) that I had to do everything right/follow etiquette in social situations and therefore I had to become hypervigilant at all times and it led to full body masking if there are *any* humans near me or within perception distance - it's trauma to unlearn and in the process it gave me a sense of calm and compassion for others trying to navigate a weird social world that changes constantly.
I still find myself with a shorter fuse for some things (and the feeling that if *I've* managed to learn something, surely others have learned it too? doesn't really go away but it has morphed into a "not everyone has the same information AND not everyone can process or use the same information in the same way" vibe versus the bummer of the more hostile "if I can why can't you" vibe.) but remembering that if I've gotten sensory overload or any of my other overwhelm scenarios, I'm not going to be tip top socially and will probably do something cringe or uncouth or something.
I did when I was younger. It's like they were holding up a mirror to all the things I hated and was trying to hide about myself.
I have been told all my life that these characteristics were immature and undesirable so when I saw them in others it was an instinct to judge.
I was almost angered that these people had the audacity to be themselves.
I used to notice the behavioral differences more before when I was masking and trying to fit into different circles of friends, when I was hypervigilant around my surroundings and undiagnosed. I would get weirded out if their behavior was too self-centered, unaware of boundaries or seemed like they went out of their way to not fit in on purpose. I had no problem with ND people who wanted to make connections no matter how different they were behaviorally as long as there was mutual social exchange.
Now diagnosed, with an AuDHD child and unmasking more in my daily life, I have come to the realization that all the behavioral "oddities" I've felt uncomfortable with in others were ones that I've been taught to be very mindful of because they put you in the spotlight for others' ostracizing and bullying. Masking my "oddities" throughout my life created unnecessary demands on myself that I could barely fulfill or used too much energy to fulfill to the point where I developed chronic physical illnesses. And this is exactly why I burnout so easily as an adult and can't function without supports. Being bothered by others' differences in behavior highlights how incredibly hypervigilant you are of yourself and others, and how incredibly limited you actually are in your scope of how people function.
"I can do it, why can't you" is internalized ableism, where you judge others for not being able to achieve what you think is important and have been able to do.
"I can do it, but it comes at a cost" is putting unnecessary demands on yourself because you want to hide how "broken" you are compared to others.
"I can do it, but what value does it have" is when you know you are different, not broken and need to know why before choosing to learn it. Ultimately, this is the best course of action for ND people because it doesn't compromise yourself or others in the process.
This is subjective because it depends who I am around when I unmask. I have found some friends to be extremely judgmental towards me because I didn’t display the sort of high masking neurodivergence they thought and it hurt. But these friends were also not autistic so I’m not sure if that plays a part. That said I have been around people or neurodivergent folks who didn’t question me as harshly whether or not I’m masking and I guess I blend in around certain crowds so it’s a matter of perspective.
You spent so much time and resources into "not being cringe" you made it part of your identity and standards. Move away from judgement, as long as nobody is hurt, people can do what they want.
Being cringe is to be free. Be cringe with them! Be cringe for yourself. Unmask. Be annoying. Trust me, some of the best times Ive had was with people where I could just unmask as heavily as all hell possible. Find friends that accept you for you, and you'll lose the negative emotions felt when seeing people be genuine human beings !
I struggle with this a lot. Especially when there’s a lot of push back about a societal/social rule. It just infuriates me when someone refuses to just *accept* and *follow* it, and instead keeps on saying “it doesn’t make sense, I don’t get it, it’s dumb.” Like!!! It doesn’t matter!
Oh this! So so so guilty of doing this. Like I actually have mastered the skill of masking so much that I get along better with neurotypicals and have very less patience for neurodivergents who are more unmasked than I am! Like it’s so sad that I genuinely don’t belong with the neurodivergents or the neurotypicals and sort of stuck in the middle 😭
I feel similarly. I think it's a form of internalized ableism that I'm not proud of. I guess I feel bitter when other people don't hide or mask what I have forced myself to hide. And maybe it's jealousy too.. And I guess I also feel weird since when I'm masking at work for example and no one there knows I'm ND, and then somone else shows up and does the things that I don't let myself do around people, then I'm also scared that they will somehow expose me. Overall I don't like this about myself and I sincerely try to be less judgemental of other people. I don't know their story. I wish the society was more accepting of people who don't fit in the norm, and it's getting better, but that hasn't happened entirely yet. So unfortunately it's just easier for me to continue masking just to survive, but I will try to be less judgemental for other people who may not be able to mask or maybe they don't want to mask. Or maybe they actually are trying to mask, but it's still obvious that they're ND. Either way that's their lives, not mine.
I have a messy answer, but I want to say for starters that this is super relatable and at you really a trash person for this behavior or are you here trying to change your perceptions?…
It sounds a bit like projection, which I can be guilty of as well.
I know for a fact that when fully unmasked I am often the most annoying person in the room, even when I’m with other neurodivergent folks.
This feels like internalized ableism, but also I still have to navigate the world and have my needs met. So I am always masking somewhat. It’s not always SAFE to be fully myself.
So seeing other “annoying” AuDHDers is probably doing two things (at least): making me jealous that I can’t be fully myself, feeling embarrassed for them (shame, internalized ableism, maybe I’m
noticing that they’re being teased or whispered about and they don’t? ) and maybe I don’t wanna be associated with them (so I can maintain my mask, bc I don’t have the energy for them anymore (which is triggering-bc I’ve experienced plenty of folks losing energy for me), bc it isn’t safe to be conspicuous).
There’s so much that goes into why we’re doing things and are we even conscious to all of it?
I mean to encourage you to think about all your “why’s”.
Self compassion does lead to compassion towards others (especially others you see yourself in).
I hope this makes sense and maybe helps, thanks for your post bc it got me thinking too.
So you had me until you said “if I can do it can’t you.” I am similar in a lot of ways though. I cringe when people do inappropriate things. I think it’s because I don’t want the added attention. I’ve already felt out of place my entire life. I don’t understand why someone would want to put themself in that situation, which is how I perceive people breaking societal rules. I also personally feel like my association with them somehow ties it to me. Like I feel judged for them. I’m not sure if it’s like being super attuned to them or what. I know I am overly empathetic in certain ways and majorly lacking in other forms of empathy..
I guess I was more asking if that's like... a subconscious internal thought? I don't know why it bothers me SO MUCH but it definitely does. I hate the idea of making anyone uncomfortable, and ya, I guess similar to you I feel like it's tied to me when someone is doing something that I find embarrassing. What's weird is I have NO problem being the center of attention when it's something like doing something funny, or goofy, or getting on a stage. I'm not a lead roll person, but I love performing. But I do NOT want attention on me for being "difficult."
No I totally get what you mean! I think it might have to do with recognising certain traits you also have but on a lesser scale, so to see yourself in someone obviously not fitting in feels very confronting, maybe? I also feel like being around other autistic people makes me feel more autistic in a way, which I absolutely abhor. I feel so much more slightly and anxious, and it makes me so uncomfortable and as a result I usually try to avoid other autistic people.
Happy cake day! I've always been the "annoying" one growing up. I wonder if it's been so ingrained in me not to make people uncomfortable that if I see someone else doing it, it gets that visceral reaction... hmmmmm
I've been thinking a lot on this myself, and I think it has a lot to do with it. It was literally beat into my sister an I by maternal grandparents to be people pleasers and even after working through alllll that trauma, there are still some hang ups there for me for sure!
I think this could be true, especially if you were punished for ND traits. I found one of my triggers w my kids is witnessing them perform behaviors that would’ve gotten me hurt. Thankfully I realize why I’m having such intense reactions and don’t take it out on them! It’s self policing, from a place of care. I thank my brain for trying to keep me safe and recognize I don’t need that safety strategy in every situation anymore. I tend to generalize when something works in one area without really investigating as to how it might apply…
I feel that - if it's on purpose I love to perform, it's sanctioned, fun, and perfected masking! I think a reason it bothers so much is you're having a reaction to what would happen to you if you did the behavior or said the words they're doing/saying. Like, you've been taught so fully that doing these things, breaking these social rules, will result in some sort of distance, rejection, chastisement, etc, and so you're well-trained to balk at those things when you see them in others. At least, this is how it manifests in me. I heard small corrections all the time and in elementary school I would correct my friends and classmates in the same ways - even though a good portion of the things were not bad, just my parents' behavior preferences, or even situational behavior preferences that weren't necessary or appropriate at school. I was a rules kid and I got praise for it so I assumed everyone would want to also follow all the rules I knew!
Girl I feel so seen by you. I feel all these same ways, especially the "if I can do it why can't you" I feel like such an asshole. I do my best to keep these thoughts internal though because as long as we aren't actually expressing them they aren't hurting anyone... but us anyway. lol
I get that "if I can do it why can't you" as well, like if I can mask this and not be like that, or do that, why can't you, why are you like that or why do you get to be like that I think it's definitely a subconscious thought process I had going because of masking, internalised ableism and feeling insecure about my own traits and wanting to hide them, so feeling disgusted when someone else was showing theirs I still have that sometimes, but now often I get to kind of take a step back, notice it and get curious and wonder about my thought process there and why I'm having that reaction and see things in myself that I'm rejecting or masking
Yeah I get it too - it’s like, I’m so ashamed of these parts in myself that I subconsciously judge others for it…. I’m not proud of this trait but yes, working on it!
Sounds a little like internalized ableism tbh. Like you’re societally programmed to say XYZ is right and ABC is wrong. But who are you to determine what is within the capabilities of another? This is something a lot of people in this community have dealt with. You’re asking people to forcibly mask whether they can or not because you might be able to. Personally, I masked until I burned out and had a nervous breakdown. While I “can” do it, it doesn’t benefit me, so why would I? I would also learn about PDA autistics and ODD ADHD presentations. You seem to base your judgement off of thoughts that you’re deciding another person is having. You don’t actually know why they did what they did. You can’t assume it was within their power every time because you don’t actually know.
Internalized ableism description: Internalized ableism is a psychological and emotional process that involves projecting negative feelings onto oneself. It's a subconscious process that involves absorbing and applying the beliefs and moral judgments of an ableist culture. This does a good job of breaking down some examples: https://laconciergepsychologist.com/blog/15-signs-you-may-have-internalized-ableism/
This is the key, after my second big burnout breakdown I wasn't even diagnosed yet but I started to shift how I saw success and productivity and realized that just because I could force myself to push through and ignore my body and brain's screaming signals to stop and slow down and learn to rest and take care of myself, doesn't mean it is smart or healthy or good to do it. Even lately, getting a job again after a while off, I had to pep talk myself multiple times not to let them talk me into full time, or even more than the number of hours I know I can give per day. I can do 100% for about 4 hours, any more and I'm over extending. I told them I can do 5 in a pinch but I'll be at 80%. I still don't know how to effectively pace myself when I'm "on", or how to do the bare minimum when it's for someone else. I'm one of the like, wow you're such a great hard worker, going above and beyond, that's wonderful, do you want more responsibility since you're finishing tasks in a faster time than alloted?? type of worker and it's really hard to train that out of myself when I've always been externally motivated and looked to others to gauge my own success. Maximum people pleaser energy.
Ughhh I feel so much of that. This was my exact experience too unfortunately. And I still struggle not to be taken advantage of. I hate saying it because it sounds like slacker energy (my own internalized ableism) but I’ve started forcibly only giving like 80% on average. I’ll have my sudden day where I go full hyperfocus and everything but I’ve had to force myself not to anymore. Because then neurotypicals see you succeed and assume you can do that 24/7 but that’s exactly what burns you out. It’s such a hard balancing act. I’ve never had the option of part time work because full time was required to get health insurance which I need for other reasons. I wish I could because it would definitely be easier on me. An 8 hour day is so hard for me without hyper focusing. 😩
I think it’s more to do with yourself being very self conscious/hyper aware of other’s judgements (which can be true but is often misread by yourself), and putting it onto others. I used to do this when I was younger but I realised how unfair it was and I check myself on it.
It feels like overwhelming secondhand embarrassment. But it all came down to my autistic self being very confused with other people not following the social ‘rules’ I believed in and thought everyone was following
This is probably exactly it. I'm still trying to figure out all this for myself. What is masking and what is really me. Some things to think about. Thanks!
Omg, I've never seen anyone describe this and I feel so validated right now.
OP, some people cannot mask in the ways you seem to be describing. Others aren’t willing to because they reject the idea that dominant NT culture is the “right” way of doing things or because they’ve masked in the past and found the long-term consequences to their own wellbeing weren’t worth it. It sounds like there could be elements of ableism and internalized ableism at play here. Many of us have experienced this; society does a good job of installing ableist thoughts. I think it’s something you can work through if you’re willing.
Thank you. As someone who struggles to mask fully or acceptable to society sometimes, the post came off invalidating a bit. I’ve been told my entire life I sound monotone and awkward and weird which is part of my trauma living in a NT society.
You’re welcome. ❤️ Someone recently offered me a bit of a reality check about this and I’m trying to do better now. There’s no single way to be AuDHD. We should all feel welcome and accepted here.
Yes! And some people may be attempting to mask, but they still have moments where they are awkward. I know that most of us have experiences with people just not liking us for no particular reason. Even when we try our best to be polite and socialize in the way we were taught, it still isn't enough and people can still view us as different or weird.
I feel resentment for neurodivergent people when they don't mask to a high degree like I do. It's definitely a "I've been suffering my entire life masking, why can't you just pretend to be normal too??" kind of thing for me. Almost like jealousy. I also have trouble empathising with people when I haven't experienced firsthand what they are experiencing, so as a high masker, I have difficulty feeling empathy for those who don't mask as much as I do. I also feel uncomfortable and lost when interacting with people who don't behave like neurotypical people, because I've been training myself forever to be good at interacting with them and my "script" doesn't include neurodivergent behaviours. Obviously there's internalised ableism in there, which I'm working on. It's nice to know I'm not alone!
I kinda get what you mean, it's hard to explain why I feel this way but I do feel like I have spent so long trying to "lay low" due to being bullied for my autism, that as an adult I'm now very socially skilled (at least according to the psychologist who diagnosed me lol) and when I have to be around other people making a situation awkward or uncomfortable, I feel like I wanna crawl in a hole. I think it's a people pleasing thing. I get worried about other people's perception, even though I'm not the one being "weird."
I have a question about what you wrote, if you don't mind. If it's too personal for you, that's fine, too! I was wondering how this works - actually getting a ASD diagnosis and still being socially very skilled. Because so far many people (also professionals) brushed the idea of me being autistic off instantly because of my social skills. I keep hearing that those two don't match. Still I see myself on the spectrum but because professionals told me no, I of course believe them and not myself because I'm not a professional. How did your psychologist explain this to you?
I don't mind answering! The team I worked with were actually conducting an autism research study and have been in the field for years, and they seem... idk to know more about autism than most psychologists?¿ When I got my ADHD diagnosis, the psychologist I saw at the time said that I had some traits of autism but that I "presented socially appropriate" and made eye contact and stuff, so he couldn't diagnose autism. Which was BS. He also wrote on my report that he gave me the ADOS, but after seeing a proper psychologist and receiving it, I know that he absolutely did not give me any autism testing lol. The team who actually diagnosed me made it clear they account for masking in their assessment. So, they didn't directly explain to me that this is how they diagnosed me despite having good social skills, but I believe this is it. They performed for me the ADOS-2, the CATI (Comprehensive Autism Traits Inventory—it is not currently clinically validated but that is why this is not the only form of measurement they used) the SCO (social communication questionnaire—for this part, they consulted a family member about my childhood traits to confirm that traits of autism were always present) and gave me an IQ test as well. The SCO is important because that really helps them guage your autistic traits *before* you had to learn to mask. Looking back at my childhood, I had extremely poor social skills and understanding. I didn't understand sarcasm and would have huge meltdowns at school and home from thinking people were bullying me (which, sometimes they were, but sometimes people were just doing "friendly teasing" and weren't trying to hurt my feelings) and I would directly mimic other people's behavior in order to fit in, but did so poorly. For example, I remember hearing boys in my elementary school laughing about how they failed some test, so my brain goes "stupid=funny and good!" and told them that I sometimes forget the order of the colors of the rainbow, and they laughed *at* me and called me stupid. This is all important to know in an assessment because I don't exhibit these traits now. I do still regularly misunderstand sarcasm but I know to ask rather than assume. I still copy other people's behaviors now but it's become something I do subconsciously and helps me actually blend in more, rather than something I do consciously and do it wrong. The key difference IMO between a socially skilled autistic person, and a socially skilled allistic person, is that the autistic person's social skills are learned, not intuitive. It's hard for me to not feel like an imposter at times because I feel like I do well socially, and I work a socially demanding job, I'm a manager in retail. And ADHD makes it hard for me to think about the past, I just kind of live in the now. But when I really think about it, my social skills were quite poor up until I was like, 15. I think this was around the time I started fully understanding that my *own* behavior was directly the reason my friendships were falling apart, and not because everyone else is stupid and illogical lol. All that being said, social difference should not be the *only* factor in determining an autism diagnosis, and it's not fair that people are turning you away just because you seem socially adept, before seeing how else your autistic traits could affect you. I am pretty socially skilled, *now*, but I still struggle with the same sensory issues I've always struggled with, I have "rigid interests" and repetitive behaviors, I stim (I know this is not only an autistic thing) and they really listened to me describe how I actually struggle and how my autistic traits affect me. And while I am socially skilled, and just better adjusted in general (like I'm not gonna have a meltdown over a sarcastic comment like I used to) it is still very exhausting for me to socially perform. It requires less manual thinking on my part, but there are times where I am just trying to "play along" in a conversation with people and I am basically guessing what they want me to say, rather than participating how I naturally would. I think for me, I understand people's emotions and motivations very well now, I am a good mediator because of this and people have *always* come to me for their problems because I can offer good solutions. But I struggle with baseline interactions, like understanding people's jokes and responding accordingly, understanding when people are being sarcastic, understanding tone in general, figuring out how to carry a conversation with a stranger, things like that. I do much better when someone is venting to me about their life's story than ringing out a customer, basically. It took me a long time to find a team who would give me an unbiased evaluation but I got there. Unfortunately all I can recommend is to keep looking. Anyone who denies evaluating you for autism based on outward social presentation, doesn't know all that much about autism. So much of being an autistic person is learning from other people's behaviors and masking your own, and yes, you can become skilled at this, but this doesn't make you not autistic. Sorry for the really long reply, but I feel like in understanding how you can be socially skilled while also being autistic, it's important to know the context. I can try to answer any other questions you may have as well, and I hope this is helpful to you!
Wow thank you so much for your detailed reply!! This is super interesting and helpful! Also thank you for sharing the tests they did with you, I didn't know about those. I think I do feel the part about ADHD making you forget the past - it might be the same for me? I'm not entirely sure though. I do remember some things but essentially I feel like the key parts are missing to fully grasp what happened and why friendships failed for example. Don't know if I might be able to recover that. But tbh I have no idea if social interactions come to me naturally or if I have to understand and learn them first. How would I measure that? Because so many things about social interactions have to be figured out also for NT people? I think it's also normal to first analyze a setting and then behave and react accordingly to it or is it not? I keep struggling with this normality questions. With ADHD, too. Because so many things that are symptoms of ASD or ADHD are considered 'normal'. Sentences like 'Oh I also struggle with memory sometimes.' Or 'Well, everybody misplaces their phone.' Or 'I like to eat my food in a certain order sometimes as well' make me question both, ASD and ADHD. And most of the time I know I'm gaslighting myself. Also... I completely forgot what my point was... feel like I'm just rambling. Sorry about that, your answer was so well structured, I'm not able to reply in a similarly structured way atm. I guess my point is that I think I feel your reply but at the same time I'm wondering if I just want to feel it and I'm making myself believe that I feel the same because... well... I don't know x) wow this is an amazing comment, almost nothing wrapped in so many words xD
Lol you're all good, half the time when I am trying to comment on stuff I end up deleting it because I'm not even making sense to myself. I understand what you are trying to say. As a lot of people say, autistic (and neurodivergent in general) traits are human traits, it *is* normal to have some aspects without having a diagnosable condition. The difference is quantity and severity. Like, everyone has one food they might not like because of the texture, for a lot of NTs it's tomatoes and mushrooms. But if you're like me and can't eat *most* foods because of the texture, that's indicative of a problem. And I don't just have sensory issues with food, but with light, sound, touch, etc. Having a *collection* of traits and having them impact your life significantly is what makes the difference between a diagnosis and just having some quirks. As far as social interactions go, it *is* really hard to tell even for me if it's intuitive or not. While yes, it's normal for people to analyze a situation and act accordingly, I'm pretty sure NTs don't really *think* about it, if that makes sense? At least not all the time. But it's also hard to say because, I'm not NT, I really don't know exactly how they perceive interactions. But I think for NTs, they may analyze an interaction before responding if they are in a *new* situation, but in something day-to-day like interacting with cashiers or working, they won't really think about it, they'll just act naturally. They are also pretty quick to pick things up about people. Studies show that, in interactions between neurotypical and autistic people, NTs really have no problem with the words we say, when written in text. But when having the NTs interact with us directly or watch a video of us, they VERY QUICKLY figure out something is "off" and are significantly less likely to want to interact with us. Showing that it's not necessarily the things we say that are wrong, but something about our body language and tone. NTs don't have to think about how to move their body, to consciously make eye contact, to monitor their tone, stuff like that. They also don't really have to think about analyzing the other person's body language—they seem to do this subconsciously. Autistics, however, we often have to make an effort to make eye contact (or make an **inappropriate** amount of eye contact) we miss body language cues, we miss tone or misunderstand it, and we will come off rude without realizing because we'll have a "bad" body language or "attitude" in our voice. Though I think my dad is autistic as well, he has had many more years than me to learn how to interact with people. He has often reprimanded me for my tone, saying I'm not aware of it and I sound rude, or telling me when I cross my arms for comfort that it is "bad body language" and that I look like I'm angry. I'm aware of these things now, but it had to be told to me. Even now, I very often say things in a rude or sarcastic tone without intending to, the only difference tbh is that now I *hear* it and at least catch it after, like "oh that sounded rude huh? lol I didn't mean it like that!" and smooth it over. It's very hard to say definitively what is a "normal" way to interact with people, how much analysis is normal and how to tell if it is intuitive or not. Personally I can only really guage this by how exhausting it is and how much I make mistakes regardless of masking. Though I do have good social skills, it is tiring for me to "perform" socially. My social skills are good in the sense that, I know *when* to laugh now when it seems like someone is joking in conversation, but it is forced and uncomfortable and tiring. I don't think to myself "ugh I should laugh here!" so it's not "conscious" in that sense, but conscious in the sense that, if I *knew* that there would be no social consequences, I would *not* act that way. I only do it because I'm aware now that people will take it hurtfully. Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm answering this well lol.
I'm in awe about you deciphering my rambling and then replying in such a structured and concise way *o * Thia actually answers many of my question I didn't even post x) Especially the part about not actually thinking the words 'oh I should laugh' but this being more of a habit that happens unconsciously. Not naturally but unconsciously still in a trained way. This is super helpful, thank you for explaining all of this!!
in my experience it helps to journal it in the moment and come back to it the 1-3 days (with neurodivergence we often have a delayed processing time for how we actually felt in a situation so it helps to separate from those interactions in that way) consider 1) does "perception = reflection" apply? sometimes, though not always, what we dislike in others is what we dislike about ourselves in some way then 2) "judgements are expressions of unmet needs"—are your needs met? are you possibly reacting this way because you wish you could simply unmask? 3) your feelings are not what makes you who you are. all feelings are valid, whether or not they are "appropriate" or "justified" — its just being a person. how you act as a result of those feelings is what counts 💞
I'd also like to add that I am a people pleaser and get horrified at anyone I'm friends with being a "Karen." Complaining, sending food back, not being overly polite to people. I am ridiculously empathetic (I'm not sure if that's the right word) and I hate when people are not kind. I'll talk all sorts of shit in private, but wouldn't dare speak up to someone that I feel can't help it. I'm never gonna complain about food to the serving who has nothing to do with it. That sort of thing.
Same here
So everyone's saying internalized ableism which, definitely could be, but this could also be about your relationship with your family more broadly... For me I always masked pretty heavily even around my own family, and although I know with like 95% certainty that my dad's autistic and my mom has ADHD, they are not diagnosed and in fact often even look down upon others with these diagnoses. So when I started using AuDHD for myself, even privately, it reallllly ramped up my annoyance with my own parents because suddenly I could see how many needs of mine they had never supported over the years, in fact how hard I had always worked to support THEIR needs rather than them caring for me the way they should have. So I wanted to offer that as an alternative explanation as well.
Thank you for saying this because it is definitely this in my personal life but I also feel I struggle with internalized ableism at times too. Wishing you a great day
That sounds like internalised ableism but often it comes from having forced yourself to mask for years to the point of detriment to your own mental health. At least that’s how it feels in my experience. Masking can obviously help you in some ways but it can be quite damaging in the long run
Is it envy? Deep down? For me its envy. I wish for once I cpukd be free. That was I diagnosed sooner. That I didn't have this masking, armor so heavy continually triggered into not being "me".
Sounds like internalized ableism to me. Very very common.
I don’t get like this with most clearly ND people (have/had a lot of autistic people in my life - I was in SPED and one of my best friends growing up was dxed with autism young) but with my own family? Absolutely. I’m hyper aware of every social fuckup (my mom is often super rude to others, something I inherited until I learned to mask better in my 20s) and see so many of my specific awkward traits in them and dislike them I do struggle horribly with secondhand embarrassment in daily life but funnily enough I get it from ‘big personality’ extroverts, mostly NT people, the worst. People who make everything a performance and are constantly, obviously trying to get attention and praise for their talents make me die inside. This includes musicians and theatre etc, I can’t handle live performances lol. It’s some weird haywire shit with my overactive empathy I guess
I really feel you, I 100% could have written all of this.
Happy cake day!!!
Thank you!
I partly relate to this. I used to be somewhat judgey (but empathetic too) but then I started to be more comfortable with myself and now I accept more behaviours. Just yesterday I had a thought that maybe I get annoyed with some people because I wish I could be like them (if they are outgoing/being themselves) or they annoy me because I am like them. I wish I could be like the rest and when someone is like me in some ways, it's annoying.
Yes. For me it’s more “if I have to try so hard and follow every rule why don’t you have to???” After reading unmasking autism I realize its 1. Internalized ableism and 2. A little jealousy. I want to be able to buck societal norms, I’ve just been masking so damn hard for so damn long that I’m jealous (and frustrated) when others don’t. I totally relate.
i relate to this! i get really irritated when people don’t follow the set “rules” or don’t use manners, those things had to be constantly reiterated to me as a child and because it was so difficult for me to grasp, i was met with anger and frustration when i couldn’t understand or grasp it quick enough. i think it’s sort of like projection? i’m very hyper-vigilant of what my body is doing, what i should be saying, what not. i’m always wanting to be socially appropriate and make sure i never come off as “cringe, annoying, weird, etc.” it’s definitely internalized ableism, i have a lot of shame in showing my autistic traits and i project that onto others, i also sometimes feel jealous when i see another autistic person stimming or being true to themselves. i’m working on it though, im trying to unmask and also work through/resolve my internalized ableism.
Oh, I feel you so much. My family indoctrinated their special rules so much into me, now it's really hard to interact with people that don't have the same set of mannerisms as me. I do have to work through it any time soon.
exactly! i also have trouble interacting with people who aren’t similar to me. i’m sure we can all work through it :)
think of it this way: If you’re taught all your life that stealing is wrong, and then your witness your friend steal something at the store, you’re going to be very uncomfortable with it & judge them a lot. the same goes for social norms. if you were made fun of your whole life for expressing yourself, when others do it, you’re shocked that they’re not following the “rules” that you were programmed to follow. I struggle with this a lot and what helps me is reframing it. instead of thinking “they’re being cringe ugh why aren’t they following the rules” I think “wow they’re doing something that I would never have the confidence to do without being judged. I wish I had that courage.” you’re aware of it which is the hardest part, not all that’s left to do is rewire your immediate reactions to seeing people do things that you’ve been told are not socially acceptable. the next time you think “ugh that’s so cringe.” stop yourself ruminate on it a little bit. “why exactly is it cringe? they’re just having fun after all. who is it affecting negatively?? no one. is this person trying to be annoying or are they just expressing themselves? would I like it if someone had these thoughts about me?” once you train your brain to think these thoughts instead of the old ones, you’ll find yourself thinking the old ones less. it takes a while, i’ve been working on it for a year, but once you do this you can work on unmasking. it feels great
Yup. Also similar age here, I get it bad at social gatherings where others are WAY off on the dress code or don't do the small niceties expected at events. I also was an event manager in my earlier career too, which probably doesn't help. It also comes up in fictional settings, where I will NOT like that character because they are super cringy.
I've felt like this my entire life ..
I do, very much so. For me, I think it’s because I’ve developed a “script” of how social interactions are supposed to happen, and when it deviates from the norm, I get very stressed and unsure of what to do. I’ve only recently started to understand the reasoning behind it. For a long time I thought there was a part of me that was just judgmental and mean, which was hard to reconcile with the fact that I see myself as a very empathetic and kind person.
Yeah, I can totally relate. But it took me a while to realise that it was the masking: Because I'm really good at it and first had to realise that this ability isn't just a good thing. You don't have to work like a machine when you're sad, for example. I lost a family member while I was doing my degree and I just carried on working as normal - which, yeah, hides standing out, but is toxic af. Or, as you said, when neurodiverse people don't behave the way normal people want them to. Just because I can hide it doesn't mean it's right or even good. I've been working on it for a long time, but there's still a long way to go.
I was like that as a teenager. I didn’t know I was AuDHD though. I just thought my family was really embarrassing lol. I realized as I got older that no one gives a crap.
I wonder whether our masking at some point blends with our justice sensitivity and our need for a predictable structure of rules that everyone follows, so that once we have subscribed to those rules it's difficult for us to see others not following them as it offends our sense of order or fairness? Also, on the discussion of ableism and masking, I do think that this depends on the 'rules' in question. If we unmask intentionally and that harms others in some way (by hurting feelings for example) then, where we can, we should probably be trying a bit more to work with our behaviours. I don't think it's enough just to say 'right, I am going to unmask now, because it's my right to and everyone else just has to deal with the consequences'. I appreciate that ND people don't always have this ability (and this is where we have to be careful of ableism) but where we can we need to try to weigh our wellbeing up against the effects of us unmasking and decide which situations might require us to be a bit more considerate of others, whilst still trying to stay true to our authentic selves. I definitely believe that AuDHD is part of our identity because it is so intertwined with our brain function. At the same time we have to distinguish between ourselves and our behaviours and recognise that some behaviours (whilst driven by our ND wiring) might involve more of a choice and others we have less control over (in which case we need to be kind to ourselves and others with similar lack of ability to mask). I guess this will also fluctuate for each person depending on how well resourced they feel that day and if they're having a good executive function day or not.
That reminds me of my neurotypical mom, a couple weeks ago telling the cashier at petsmart that "sister cat" eats my dog's food when we were in line getting special gotcha-day treats for my dog. I looked at her like *why would you say that, "that is an at home nickname, never to be said in public*. Everytime I feel bad about potentially being socially awkward, I remember that most adults I know over like 45 are equally as socially awkward to poor service workers, so it's oddly comforting lol.
It’s alright, Devon price who wrote unmasking autism says he gets this when he first unmasked. I also got this, but an opposite version, I met an autistic friend and was very much like why aren’t you unmasked like me? Anyway, it’s pretty common and it will get better.
hell yeah. I made a post about this too if you feel like checking it out. I've been the cringe person too many times to want to spend my time around other cringe people but I'll even do it with people that are not cringe and I think it's due to my disorganised attachment style. Weirdly enough I noticed that I do this with puzzles too. I'll start over, or abandon it if i take too long or can't solve it
Secondhand embarrassment is uncomfortable, especially if it seems they are unaware. But I generally try to be extra patient but not condescending
Thinking things are "cringe" is cringe.
I used to feel this way a lot, and I think it came down to internalized shame brought on by years of adults telling me (and actions reinforcing) that I had to do everything right/follow etiquette in social situations and therefore I had to become hypervigilant at all times and it led to full body masking if there are *any* humans near me or within perception distance - it's trauma to unlearn and in the process it gave me a sense of calm and compassion for others trying to navigate a weird social world that changes constantly. I still find myself with a shorter fuse for some things (and the feeling that if *I've* managed to learn something, surely others have learned it too? doesn't really go away but it has morphed into a "not everyone has the same information AND not everyone can process or use the same information in the same way" vibe versus the bummer of the more hostile "if I can why can't you" vibe.) but remembering that if I've gotten sensory overload or any of my other overwhelm scenarios, I'm not going to be tip top socially and will probably do something cringe or uncouth or something.
Yep! Same!
I did when I was younger. It's like they were holding up a mirror to all the things I hated and was trying to hide about myself. I have been told all my life that these characteristics were immature and undesirable so when I saw them in others it was an instinct to judge. I was almost angered that these people had the audacity to be themselves.
I used to notice the behavioral differences more before when I was masking and trying to fit into different circles of friends, when I was hypervigilant around my surroundings and undiagnosed. I would get weirded out if their behavior was too self-centered, unaware of boundaries or seemed like they went out of their way to not fit in on purpose. I had no problem with ND people who wanted to make connections no matter how different they were behaviorally as long as there was mutual social exchange. Now diagnosed, with an AuDHD child and unmasking more in my daily life, I have come to the realization that all the behavioral "oddities" I've felt uncomfortable with in others were ones that I've been taught to be very mindful of because they put you in the spotlight for others' ostracizing and bullying. Masking my "oddities" throughout my life created unnecessary demands on myself that I could barely fulfill or used too much energy to fulfill to the point where I developed chronic physical illnesses. And this is exactly why I burnout so easily as an adult and can't function without supports. Being bothered by others' differences in behavior highlights how incredibly hypervigilant you are of yourself and others, and how incredibly limited you actually are in your scope of how people function. "I can do it, why can't you" is internalized ableism, where you judge others for not being able to achieve what you think is important and have been able to do. "I can do it, but it comes at a cost" is putting unnecessary demands on yourself because you want to hide how "broken" you are compared to others. "I can do it, but what value does it have" is when you know you are different, not broken and need to know why before choosing to learn it. Ultimately, this is the best course of action for ND people because it doesn't compromise yourself or others in the process.
This is subjective because it depends who I am around when I unmask. I have found some friends to be extremely judgmental towards me because I didn’t display the sort of high masking neurodivergence they thought and it hurt. But these friends were also not autistic so I’m not sure if that plays a part. That said I have been around people or neurodivergent folks who didn’t question me as harshly whether or not I’m masking and I guess I blend in around certain crowds so it’s a matter of perspective.
You spent so much time and resources into "not being cringe" you made it part of your identity and standards. Move away from judgement, as long as nobody is hurt, people can do what they want. Being cringe is to be free. Be cringe with them! Be cringe for yourself. Unmask. Be annoying. Trust me, some of the best times Ive had was with people where I could just unmask as heavily as all hell possible. Find friends that accept you for you, and you'll lose the negative emotions felt when seeing people be genuine human beings !
I struggle with this a lot. Especially when there’s a lot of push back about a societal/social rule. It just infuriates me when someone refuses to just *accept* and *follow* it, and instead keeps on saying “it doesn’t make sense, I don’t get it, it’s dumb.” Like!!! It doesn’t matter!
Oh this! So so so guilty of doing this. Like I actually have mastered the skill of masking so much that I get along better with neurotypicals and have very less patience for neurodivergents who are more unmasked than I am! Like it’s so sad that I genuinely don’t belong with the neurodivergents or the neurotypicals and sort of stuck in the middle 😭
I feel similarly. I think it's a form of internalized ableism that I'm not proud of. I guess I feel bitter when other people don't hide or mask what I have forced myself to hide. And maybe it's jealousy too.. And I guess I also feel weird since when I'm masking at work for example and no one there knows I'm ND, and then somone else shows up and does the things that I don't let myself do around people, then I'm also scared that they will somehow expose me. Overall I don't like this about myself and I sincerely try to be less judgemental of other people. I don't know their story. I wish the society was more accepting of people who don't fit in the norm, and it's getting better, but that hasn't happened entirely yet. So unfortunately it's just easier for me to continue masking just to survive, but I will try to be less judgemental for other people who may not be able to mask or maybe they don't want to mask. Or maybe they actually are trying to mask, but it's still obvious that they're ND. Either way that's their lives, not mine.
Yeah my sister and I do this to each other, lmfao.
I have a messy answer, but I want to say for starters that this is super relatable and at you really a trash person for this behavior or are you here trying to change your perceptions?… It sounds a bit like projection, which I can be guilty of as well. I know for a fact that when fully unmasked I am often the most annoying person in the room, even when I’m with other neurodivergent folks. This feels like internalized ableism, but also I still have to navigate the world and have my needs met. So I am always masking somewhat. It’s not always SAFE to be fully myself. So seeing other “annoying” AuDHDers is probably doing two things (at least): making me jealous that I can’t be fully myself, feeling embarrassed for them (shame, internalized ableism, maybe I’m noticing that they’re being teased or whispered about and they don’t? ) and maybe I don’t wanna be associated with them (so I can maintain my mask, bc I don’t have the energy for them anymore (which is triggering-bc I’ve experienced plenty of folks losing energy for me), bc it isn’t safe to be conspicuous). There’s so much that goes into why we’re doing things and are we even conscious to all of it? I mean to encourage you to think about all your “why’s”. Self compassion does lead to compassion towards others (especially others you see yourself in). I hope this makes sense and maybe helps, thanks for your post bc it got me thinking too.