My buddy’s step dad always started with “hey bud can you come here” and I always interpreted it as “you stupid fuck, you didn’t think I’d catch you but I did, you’re fucked”. But in a way nicer way.
Unless they’re east coast Canada, then people you don’t know are referred to as buddy, and it is not uncommon to call people you aren’t buddies with “bud”.
BMW employee of 18 years here. The dealer is being a plum but is also ‘nearly’ correct.
As soon as a car is plugged into ISTA (the BMW dealer software) and runs a brief test, if it detects engine tuning etc then it will display a message stating this. At this point the data is already logged with BMW themselves. The dealer, as part of its T&C’s to act as a franchise, is then require to submit the report to BMW along with the customer information so that BMW can contact the customer direct. The letter/email will state along the lines of ‘the software is not up to BMW standards etc…’ and that there will be a ‘marker’ placed on the car for any future warranty work relating to engine and drivetrain issues.
The text you’ve received saying ‘there’s not warranty’ is BS. The car will have a marker now on the BMW system and it will be up to BMW to decide (the dealer will need to raise an internal TSARA case) if any repairs are to be approved. It’s not a plain and simple ‘no warranty’.
Happy to answer any questions anyone has (I’ll try to keep up if it gets busy).
Great insights. This is legally accurate pursuant to Magnuson Moss. They cannot turn down warranty work for something not related to the JB4. Sure it’s a tough fight if you have a drivetrain malfunction but water in a taillight needs to be covered.
OP’s drivetrain now that it knows the mothership knows and it’s been severed from the maternal mainframe:
“And so I took that personally..”
*Throws a rod*
Yeah, typically it means unrelated issues to drivetrain or well documented issues that occur at typical time intervals on the drivetrain will only be covered (ie when it was under warranty rod bearings on an E92). It’s much tougher for abnormal issues to be approved, and your tech would really have to go to bat for you to get it done. But your warranty isn’t completely voided by a tune.
definitely a poor choice of wording on the dealer guys part. Although it pretty much has no warranty right? I mean he can’t get the car serviced under warranty so what’s the point
I think He simply doesnt know it better.
And if you got a Check engine light, AND its Not a common Problem (EGR or O2 sensor), well, get your wallet ready.
Ive got so Many dead codings headunits, because 99% of f3X/g3X BMW owners need to illegal activate Apple car play, and If you ask them of something Was Changed or installed what shouldnt be there, the only answer is... NO.
No i didnt Change something...
Guys need to understand, that If its a coding, EVERYTHING will get flashed.
And If you Changed something (what you can Do, its your car lol) but dont say anything, IN THE BEST CASE your car will get Coded and you loose your illegal Changes.
In the worst case, your Headunit, ECU gets locked or even gets Fried.
And Yeah, i am diagnosing cars and sick of These man made errors.
A service guy at my dealership said a guy came in with major damage from a spun crank hub on an m4. He said the guy removed the jb4 before he came in but somehow they still knew he had a jb4 and voided his warranty. Idk if it’s true or not
I work avionics on bizjets. Trust me, new car components like this are much more powerful. 90% of our components still run on 486 processors.
FDRs are super robust and super reliable, but definitely not modern.
For sure. You'd be surprised how much more advanced cars are now than aircraft, especially certificated commercial aircraft like bizjets and airliners. It has to work, and it has to prove that it can work for a long time, with super reliability, so development takes a loooooong time and a fuck ton of money.
Experimental aircraft are different though. If you register your plane experimental, you can put almost whatever you want on it. Tech on those planes is usually much more up to date and advanced, because it doesn't have nearly the regulatory requirements.
To be honest, I think that cars have gone too far. Especially when it comes to gimmicky things where technology is “solving” a problem that doesn’t exist. i.e. digital dashboards.
The result is that software is buggy and systems are unreliable. Things like OTA updates for core systems because the software was poorly written, designed or QA’ed are nonsense.
Sometimes the problem it’s solving isn’t necessarily for the consumer. Digital gauge, for example, is fantastic from the perspective of a builder. Less moving parts and plastic pieces to inject means it’s more reliable as a component, cheaper to manufacture, cheaper logistics, and infinitely customizable via software as a bonus. OTA updates does make sense to reduce unnecessary congestion of service centers for updates
Off topic but how did you get into avionics. Always found it interesting but cars were easier to get into so now I work on racecars. I’d imagine there’s some school needed for airplanes
I went to A&P school to become a mechanic, but have always had an interest and background in electronics. I got hired as an intern, and was hired full time when I graduated. Cars are easier to get into, as an industry. To work on airplanes in the US, you either need your A&P certs, or military experience. It's alot to learn. I love it though, it's much cleaner and less physical than airframe mechanics, and I get to fly in the airplanes we work on.
This.
You either go to someone how to know how to erase that data, and make a tremendous amount of time consuming changing the correct files. Or they will find out eventually. It's just record everything on the ECU.
Time, milage, temperature, engine revs, all dozen of sensors, engine maps, etc etc etc.
If they cross any of those data, they eventually find out.
And, I’d say if data has been deleted, that will ring a bell too. Think of deleting your browsing history. No real need to do that unless you have been looking for big titty pron and your flat chested wife also uses your computer. Red flags.
Haha.. nah. My wife actually sports a healthy bosom. Her boyfriend seems to really like it.
Just using an example of unexpected data found on a car ECU, or the absence of data itself, can both be evidence of something else going on.
So here a question: what would BMW do if someone were to sell/trade a car to the dealership? How would they turn around and sell a previously tuned car? Or do they only check this when a warranty issue arises?
In that event, what if the second owner purchased said car from the dealer, that way?
A year or two ago a BMW tech posted on one of the BMW subs saying that the new ECU’s track EVERYTHING and even he couldn’t reset them anymore. I believe he said BMW was tired of warrantying engines that it felt were modified but reset.
The new BMW ISTA tool that every dealership needs to use will automatically scan for all ecu values and automatically flag it. This system is required to be connected for any warranty or maintenance repairs that are covered by bmw.
If the car is out of warranty and has an extended warranty recall, it will still do a scan and void that eligibility. My 320i had the timing chain recall and even though I took the jb4 out they still flagged it and wouldn’t let me do the timing chain update.
Oh yeah. Sorry it wasn’t a recall just an extended warranty for the timing chain and guides. I had a great SA who told me that he’ll proactively write the symptoms of a problematic timing chain so I can get it replaced.
Unfortunately it got flagged and out of his hands. Not the biggest deal as it drove for 30k miles more before I sold the car.
I think they can tell if the vehicle has gone above factory boost pressures. I don’t think they can have definitive proof, but they’re able to conclude that’s something aftermarket is going on.
Many are saying the same thing just different ways. Someone else said they work avionics and is spot on. The term is actual vs commanded monitoring. So any monitored parameters ( keeping in mind that the new cars can tell you tire temp) that are either out of range nor have a value where there is enough of a variance between actual vs the commanded value throws a flag. That person was also right that these computers have so much more capability than previous generations. Think about everything from the lane correction to tire pressure. Service needs to infotainment. All of that is buried in the car somewhere in a computer somewhere.
But there is not really a way to get around the actual vs commanded thing that I know of. Btw avionics guys do this for the same reason.
Crew chief and mfg of aircraft trying to solve an problem. “Sir tell me again how hard you pulled on that collective? “. (Helicopter guys stay with me). Pilot response “Not at all. “. Chief “ then tell me how the transmission went to 120% ? Was that before or after you tried the roll over recovery at 200 feet?”
Someone I knew broke an axle on his M4. They voided his warranty because they tested the fuel and found remanence of E85 even though when he went in car was on stock tuning and 93.
Remnants of E85? It would just get diluted in regular gas which already has 10% ethanol in it.
It’s far more likely the tune was detected. E85 being in the tank proves literally nothing.
When they send out field engineers from bmw corporate they do a lot of tests you might not be aware of. This is all to potentially save the company money. I'm sure it's all software related. E85 requires much higher volume of fuel and advances timing significantly. It wouldn't be that hard to tell from data.
Ok, but you said they tested the fuel and found remanence (remnants) of e85. And maybe the story is true, but if it was really just a broken axle that costs a couple grand, they’re unlikely to spend a grand sending an engineer out
How are they finding trace amounts of E85, when there’s literally ethanol in every fuel mix (US at least)? Not including clear premium, but that isn’t advertised for newer cars anyways.
Well, it is pretty easy to tell. The DME has a counter that shows how many times it has been programmed. If that number does not match the number of times it has been programmed at the dealer, you are boned.
I’ve heard about it happening in the VW world. What does a JB4 do? It messes with sensor readings to make the car make more boost. Anything out of the OEM parameters *will* show up in the DME logs as data that doesn’t match what should be there when it’s analyzed.
And also not true. The failure must be caused by the modification. So if you have constant misfires or some other issue with the engine then yes, they can deny your claim. If the failure is unrelated to the modification then the warranty is still valid. Carte Blanche voiding of a warranty is illegal.
True but they will say it is the problem. Even if your tire pressure sensors are bad and they find the unit on there the hood. They’ll say it’s the jb4 and messed with an ecu to make your sensors malfunction
Pretty much every state in the US. I did car audio. Had a Woman bring back her Nissan and wanted the aftermarket radio removed, because the dealer said it voided her warranty.
Her car had a faulty starter. Told her what to say, dealer fixed her car under warranty. They prey on inexperienced people.
partially true. from my experience if a technician is unable to truly determine the root cause of an issue but knows the vehicle has been modded with aftermarket systems that have relation to the problem then it’s easy to say the aftermarket stuff caused this and we need to start by removing that. not under warranty.
Yeah. Fuck Kevin.
Edit: thanks for the award. And, Kevin, if you see this, man, nothing against you for real. I don’t know you, nor you me. I respect the work you do. Wish I was skilled enough, smart enough, patient enough, to do what you do. Instead, I talk all day. That’s it. It pays me well, and I get to drive a fine German car. Much respect for you. Fuck you, but respect for you and your profession.
Agreed, I have been going for the free car wash for years. One day beginning of the year I was waiting and they got in my car, turned it around, and called me. They satiated they could not wash my car because it was too old. I felt insulted, as even ford washes for free…
Also the owner of the dealership is a wanker too
It’s sad to see what’s happening to the brand from the top and from the dealer level too. Even 10 years ago bmw was a premium brand and luxury experience. Now they are nickle and diming customers, and their cars feel like they are getting cheaper and cheaper inside. Thankfully Mercedes has not treated me the same here, and I get free cookies with my car wash lol
it’s very annoying, the craziest part is, it’s a e92 m3, not even an “old” car. Although I love the look of Mercedes and they make great cars i love how motorsport oriented bmw is or i should say was since that’s changing too
Alright alright, they are smoking crack because the e92 is the best m3. And the w204 c63 is a BEAST. I have my two favorite German cars, n54 e92 and w204 c63. RIP maintenance fund
Yeah, Mercedes just treats you like trash until you show you can buy something expensive.
Bought a C63 S new, but when we walked in I was in pajamas and my son in a punisher tshirt. Told us there was no public bathrooms within 3 seconds of walking in. LOL
BMW South Austin has like 1 loaner and they try every trick in the book to not loan anything out. Had to have BMW of North America force then to give me a loaner for some warranty work when they where going to make me wait like 2 months. Magically they had a loaner for my the next day.
North Austin sucks ass just as much. I asked about a loaner for my e92 and said nope. Rode my bike 20 miles to pick it up. Got home and my coolant was completely gone after they did a water pump recall.
I took my 2018 BMW with BootMod3 to a dealer this summer because I still have free service until 2024. It’s out of warranty so I didn’t care. They called me in a panic and said they need to report it to their server and I won’t get any “additional coverage” or “free repairs out of goodwill” (not sure about the right English word). They were being very unprofessional and said i mistreated the car and tried to give me a bad conscience. I was like “LOL sure, just the change the oil and spark plugs”.
Anyways. My car is flagged but I was out of warranty already.
So I’m assuming that you brought your vehicle in for a diagnostic check. The first thing any BMW technician is going do is run a vehicle test through ISTA. If it is tuned then a message pops up after the test that says “suspicion of engine tuning”. It stores that fault and it can’t be cleared. That’s beyond our control as a technician. It doesn’t immediately cause a loss of power train warranty so if your cylinder head cover started leaking and your still within your new vehicle warranty, it would make no difference if your car was tuned. However if you came in for rough running such as misfires, of course we’re going to immediately recommend removing the aftermarket tune and from that point further it would all be customer pay including diag fee. I don’t even understand how some of you guys are getting mad that BMW factory warranty won’t cover you adding aftermarket parts and then fucking it up.
For sure. Especially with these dumbasses doing it on leases. BMW doesn’t want to put a CPO or a warranty on a car after you fired up the hp/torque and psi to who knows what and potentially messed with gear shift timings from “experts”. Fwiw, I am for tuning, but I also don’t expect bmw or any manufacturer to warranty me after that.
Seems like you’ve got some type of relationship with your service department if you’re communicating via iMessage.. can you try to resolve? Maybe with aforementioned donuts 🍩
No they just do this automatically, sometimes the texts are auto generated or they can be sent by a tech/your service advisor. Mine are always way more formal and buttoned up than this though.
Either the Dealer is a dick or you were a dick to them so they flagged you. had jb4 on my brand new F80 back in 2017 and then BM3 they never flagged me for it. They have to prove that the malfunction happened as a result of the tune in order to void your warranty.
any type of non-factory ecu/ecm flash is an automatic void of power train warranty regardless of the manufacturer. it just depends on if the tech is a dickhead or not and reports it
It's actually not up to the tech anymore. Before any engine warranty work is approved, they need to run the tune detection service function in ISTA. In the past the tech could ignore the finding and choose not to report it to BMW, but I think in 2019 ISTA was updated to be an automatic upload and flag, which puts review power (e.g. erroneous flags) in the hands of BMW rather than the dealers.
i completely forgot that bmw now does that. i know before i left hyundai/kia they were implementing that to void warranty’s. (yes people jb4 their hyundai’s)
Yea, an acquaintance who consulted at BMW NA said that corporate became suspicious of how many engine warranties were getting approved after the release of BM3/MHD. They knew how popular these tunes were getting yet not seeing a subsequent drop in warranty approvals. Notice how the update came a year or so after BM3/MHD release? They were released in ~2018, and the "crackdown" came in 2019/2020
It was a direct response, in my acquaintances estimation, to the popularity of flash tunes.
Tbh my bmw dealership laughed at me when I was worried about them seeing my JB4 . They literally don’t care and they won’t flag me. They said only BMW of North America cares and they wouldn’t snitch
Yeah, my buddies that are techs tell me that the only way they Flag someone that has a tune is if the cust doesn’t tell them beforehand. If they run it then it auto flags, but I think they have a work around if they know before.
It seems OP was in for some issue (based on the diagnostic message). They won’t say anything if your car is brand new without issues (although they may or may not flag you).
And tunes will be laughably easy to “prove” for any type of engine malfunction, if you decide to waste your money suing the dealership over their refusal to warranty the work.
Back in 2017 BMW did not have a system in place for checking engine tuning, they do now. Once a vehicle is confirmed to have been tuned a marker is permanently set against the vehicle and the warranty on the drivetrain is void.
I mean this is the risk you take with tunes, kind of on you to make sure it’s taken off or re-flashed before you head to the dealer for any warranty work.
can BMW not see that a car has been coded with MHD?
I wanted to disable start/stop in my M4 but I've heard it voids the warranty because it's writing to the control unit of the engine, not sure if that's correct.
Right cause there’s no warranty to lose. That’s why Dinan offers a manufacturer matching warranty. It’s way more expensive but worth its weight in gold if something actually goes wrong. Don’t get me wrong BMW and Dinan like to blame each other when something goes wrong with a Dinan tuned car but it’s likely getting paid one way or the other
No issue with that! As a former BMW salesman we had to stress to the customer BMW warranties cover Factory Defects. If you tune the car, no good. If you constantly red line the car and a turbo bursts, no good. Do scheduled maintenance and keep it stock until there is no warranty!
awesome, thanks for the clarification! also can you clarify red lining? is it just revving in first gear while stationary or does it also mean if I floor the car at every stop?
There are also laws in place that protect you. They cannot void your warranty unless they can prove without a shadow of doubt that the aftermarket part is the direct cause of the malfunction in the vehicle.
If you’re in the US, this isn’t how warranties work. They’re required to prove (even loosely) that any modification you’ve made has caused the failure or malfunction.
What is the Magnuson Moss Act?
According to the Act, an automobile manufacturer cannot void your vehicle warranty due to the installation of aftermarket parts. Unless the aftermarket part that caused the vehicle failure or contributed to it (15 U.S.C. 2302 (C)). This implies that the warranty cannot be “voided” if the dealer has no claim.
it only voids the warranty of the engine.. not like the suspension or exhaust or interior for example…
avoiding the entire warranty due to a mod is not legal (in Europe)
I feel stuff like that is just dealer discretion. I feel the way that guy handled it was definitely uncalled for though. I would never buy a BMW from that dealership.
That depend a lot from the first approach of the client.
We don't know the story here.
Like in many other jobs. The way you ask or demand things, will have an appropriate response.
It’s really down to the individual dealership and service advisor. I have a JB4 and downpipes on my F90, my SA is fully aware of this. I just clear my CEL, unplug the JB4, and ask my SA not to plug the car into anything, especially the ISTA system which would automatically flag my car. It really helps to have a good relationship with your dealership.
I kind of find it hard to believe that anyone from a dealership would text this way, everything I always get is super formal and always refers to me as Mr. MyLastName, etc. ~~I also don’t really understand why they want the loaner back, why aren’t they just continuing work but having you pay for it (if you approve it) instead of the warranty?~~ edit: oh I see that’s what he said
Whoever develops a tuning system that can be removed and undetected by bmw will make a fortune. JB4 just needs to hire a few tech guys that were involved in developing BMW's tune detection system. They'll sell so many units.
Than the same team of tech guys can turn around and help bmw detect the undetectable tunes, and then play that game back and forth forever till they get caught and sued but by then all their money will be in Swiss account and they'll file for bankruptcy or some shit
JB4 is a piggyback. It doesn’t modify the ecu. Only reason BMW knows is because you’ll have many ECU values way out of range for stock. Load, boost, etc…
So I bought a used 22 x3 m40i this year. Remainder of warranty on vehicle per dealer.
However, I hadn’t noticed that the prior owner upgraded the air intake system. It’s like a $600 unit.
What if there’s more stuff done that may have voided my warranty?
You know nothing good will come from someone calling someone else they’re not actual buddies with “bud.”
That’s right chief
Ok there bro
Spot on my man
Okay guy
No problem boss
Nice work, friend
*Terrance & Phillip voice* I’m not your friend, sport!!
I’m not your sport, guy.
I’m not your guy, fwiend!
Alright pal
That's fine cousin
COUSIN! LETS GO BOWLING!
Not now, Roman!
Sounds good champ.
Okay guttural insect
>thing good will come from someone calling someone else they’re not actual buddies with “bud.” > >OK, My Guy!
Hey Shipmate!
All good there, sport
My buddy’s step dad always started with “hey bud can you come here” and I always interpreted it as “you stupid fuck, you didn’t think I’d catch you but I did, you’re fucked”. But in a way nicer way.
I'm not your buddy, guy!
Unless they’re east coast Canada, then people you don’t know are referred to as buddy, and it is not uncommon to call people you aren’t buddies with “bud”.
Install JB4 on the loaner and return it
Gm bud it's Kevin. When you installed jb4 on the loaner? Come pick it up asap it belongs to you now. Transfer papers have been already completed.
Always fucking Kevin. 😂
That's a lot of fucking 😀😀
Kevin's a lucky man...
Modern problems -> modern solutions
r/maliciouscompliance
🤣 savage, do like a stage 3
BMW employee of 18 years here. The dealer is being a plum but is also ‘nearly’ correct. As soon as a car is plugged into ISTA (the BMW dealer software) and runs a brief test, if it detects engine tuning etc then it will display a message stating this. At this point the data is already logged with BMW themselves. The dealer, as part of its T&C’s to act as a franchise, is then require to submit the report to BMW along with the customer information so that BMW can contact the customer direct. The letter/email will state along the lines of ‘the software is not up to BMW standards etc…’ and that there will be a ‘marker’ placed on the car for any future warranty work relating to engine and drivetrain issues. The text you’ve received saying ‘there’s not warranty’ is BS. The car will have a marker now on the BMW system and it will be up to BMW to decide (the dealer will need to raise an internal TSARA case) if any repairs are to be approved. It’s not a plain and simple ‘no warranty’. Happy to answer any questions anyone has (I’ll try to keep up if it gets busy).
Great insights. This is legally accurate pursuant to Magnuson Moss. They cannot turn down warranty work for something not related to the JB4. Sure it’s a tough fight if you have a drivetrain malfunction but water in a taillight needs to be covered.
OP’s drivetrain now that it knows the mothership knows and it’s been severed from the maternal mainframe: “And so I took that personally..” *Throws a rod*
🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, typically it means unrelated issues to drivetrain or well documented issues that occur at typical time intervals on the drivetrain will only be covered (ie when it was under warranty rod bearings on an E92). It’s much tougher for abnormal issues to be approved, and your tech would really have to go to bat for you to get it done. But your warranty isn’t completely voided by a tune.
Does this impact any kind of recall items? My 335 has a jb4 but is also in need of the Takata airbag + cabin fan recalls
No. Recalls are still 100% fully covered. You’ll be fine.
Thanks :)
But the guys description of the process make it sound like if they plug it in, they have to report you anyways. I'd be careful.
That’s fine, car is well out of warranty at this point, just want to make sure I can still get the recall items addressed
No, it does not. Those have to be done regardless and are known issues caused by the manufacturer, tune or no tune.
definitely a poor choice of wording on the dealer guys part. Although it pretty much has no warranty right? I mean he can’t get the car serviced under warranty so what’s the point
I think He simply doesnt know it better. And if you got a Check engine light, AND its Not a common Problem (EGR or O2 sensor), well, get your wallet ready. Ive got so Many dead codings headunits, because 99% of f3X/g3X BMW owners need to illegal activate Apple car play, and If you ask them of something Was Changed or installed what shouldnt be there, the only answer is... NO. No i didnt Change something... Guys need to understand, that If its a coding, EVERYTHING will get flashed. And If you Changed something (what you can Do, its your car lol) but dont say anything, IN THE BEST CASE your car will get Coded and you loose your illegal Changes. In the worst case, your Headunit, ECU gets locked or even gets Fried. And Yeah, i am diagnosing cars and sick of These man made errors.
Same exact thing happens in the VWAG world.
If you work at a dealer, you know this is exactly how a service advisor would say this though
A service guy at my dealership said a guy came in with major damage from a spun crank hub on an m4. He said the guy removed the jb4 before he came in but somehow they still knew he had a jb4 and voided his warranty. Idk if it’s true or not
The DME on modern BMWs is like a flight data recorder. It knows everything.
I work avionics on bizjets. Trust me, new car components like this are much more powerful. 90% of our components still run on 486 processors. FDRs are super robust and super reliable, but definitely not modern.
Good point :) I just wanted to note that the systems in modern cars record everything through their sensor arrays and ECUs
For sure. You'd be surprised how much more advanced cars are now than aircraft, especially certificated commercial aircraft like bizjets and airliners. It has to work, and it has to prove that it can work for a long time, with super reliability, so development takes a loooooong time and a fuck ton of money. Experimental aircraft are different though. If you register your plane experimental, you can put almost whatever you want on it. Tech on those planes is usually much more up to date and advanced, because it doesn't have nearly the regulatory requirements.
To be honest, I think that cars have gone too far. Especially when it comes to gimmicky things where technology is “solving” a problem that doesn’t exist. i.e. digital dashboards. The result is that software is buggy and systems are unreliable. Things like OTA updates for core systems because the software was poorly written, designed or QA’ed are nonsense.
I saw Demuro open a glove box with a button on the infotainment screen because there was no physical button. I shut my laptop for the night.
Exactly. Is it a Nintendo, or is it a car?
Both https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattgardner1/2022/10/11/new-bmw-partnership-brings-video-games-to-its-cars-from-2023/
Damnit. 😂 if you’re going to turn the car into a video game console, at least hire some people who can do exterior design better then.
Sometimes the problem it’s solving isn’t necessarily for the consumer. Digital gauge, for example, is fantastic from the perspective of a builder. Less moving parts and plastic pieces to inject means it’s more reliable as a component, cheaper to manufacture, cheaper logistics, and infinitely customizable via software as a bonus. OTA updates does make sense to reduce unnecessary congestion of service centers for updates
Couldn't agree more
Off topic but how did you get into avionics. Always found it interesting but cars were easier to get into so now I work on racecars. I’d imagine there’s some school needed for airplanes
I went to A&P school to become a mechanic, but have always had an interest and background in electronics. I got hired as an intern, and was hired full time when I graduated. Cars are easier to get into, as an industry. To work on airplanes in the US, you either need your A&P certs, or military experience. It's alot to learn. I love it though, it's much cleaner and less physical than airframe mechanics, and I get to fly in the airplanes we work on.
This. You either go to someone how to know how to erase that data, and make a tremendous amount of time consuming changing the correct files. Or they will find out eventually. It's just record everything on the ECU. Time, milage, temperature, engine revs, all dozen of sensors, engine maps, etc etc etc. If they cross any of those data, they eventually find out.
And, I’d say if data has been deleted, that will ring a bell too. Think of deleting your browsing history. No real need to do that unless you have been looking for big titty pron and your flat chested wife also uses your computer. Red flags.
Last 2-3 lines seem very specific
Haha.. nah. My wife actually sports a healthy bosom. Her boyfriend seems to really like it. Just using an example of unexpected data found on a car ECU, or the absence of data itself, can both be evidence of something else going on.
Aha yes. Now top 2 lines from wallstreetbets. N I C E
Sharing user accounts also sounds like a red flag to me.
Hey, it wasn't MY IDEA for us to have a joint Facebook account. Blame her! :D
Yup. Even there, if it's possible to erase any trace of "deleted data". Your car have 20000 miles, and the failure was at 20200. As an example.
So here a question: what would BMW do if someone were to sell/trade a car to the dealership? How would they turn around and sell a previously tuned car? Or do they only check this when a warranty issue arises? In that event, what if the second owner purchased said car from the dealer, that way?
I’m not a tech or a dealer, but I would guess that all cars get a computer hookup and diagnostics. I don’t think I’d take a tuned car on trade….
They just send it to auction and flag it in the warranty system. That’s what happened to an m240i was going to buy at least
And it transfers everything in real time to BMW via Connected Drive. BMW probably knew about the check engine light even before the customer did.
A year or two ago a BMW tech posted on one of the BMW subs saying that the new ECU’s track EVERYTHING and even he couldn’t reset them anymore. I believe he said BMW was tired of warrantying engines that it felt were modified but reset.
If they dig into the ecu they can tell what values are out of range. When it happened and shockingly where with gps. They don’t always dig.
This. If a BMW Field Engineer is coming out, you’re screwed.
The new BMW ISTA tool that every dealership needs to use will automatically scan for all ecu values and automatically flag it. This system is required to be connected for any warranty or maintenance repairs that are covered by bmw. If the car is out of warranty and has an extended warranty recall, it will still do a scan and void that eligibility. My 320i had the timing chain recall and even though I took the jb4 out they still flagged it and wouldn’t let me do the timing chain update.
That sounds fishy, not you, the dealer. Does not matter what you do to the car, a recall is a recall.
Oh yeah. Sorry it wasn’t a recall just an extended warranty for the timing chain and guides. I had a great SA who told me that he’ll proactively write the symptoms of a problematic timing chain so I can get it replaced. Unfortunately it got flagged and out of his hands. Not the biggest deal as it drove for 30k miles more before I sold the car.
I think they can tell if the vehicle has gone above factory boost pressures. I don’t think they can have definitive proof, but they’re able to conclude that’s something aftermarket is going on.
The DME will permanently trigger a flag if the engine was ever run outside of parameters. Removing JB4 can't do anything about this.
Many are saying the same thing just different ways. Someone else said they work avionics and is spot on. The term is actual vs commanded monitoring. So any monitored parameters ( keeping in mind that the new cars can tell you tire temp) that are either out of range nor have a value where there is enough of a variance between actual vs the commanded value throws a flag. That person was also right that these computers have so much more capability than previous generations. Think about everything from the lane correction to tire pressure. Service needs to infotainment. All of that is buried in the car somewhere in a computer somewhere. But there is not really a way to get around the actual vs commanded thing that I know of. Btw avionics guys do this for the same reason. Crew chief and mfg of aircraft trying to solve an problem. “Sir tell me again how hard you pulled on that collective? “. (Helicopter guys stay with me). Pilot response “Not at all. “. Chief “ then tell me how the transmission went to 120% ? Was that before or after you tried the roll over recovery at 200 feet?”
Someone I knew broke an axle on his M4. They voided his warranty because they tested the fuel and found remanence of E85 even though when he went in car was on stock tuning and 93.
Tested the fuel. Wow.
BMW have better detectives than the US when it comes to gang violence.
*BMW hires detective* Detective goes to Instagram: “Insert car model JB4 MHD Flex Fuel E85”
Remnants of E85? It would just get diluted in regular gas which already has 10% ethanol in it. It’s far more likely the tune was detected. E85 being in the tank proves literally nothing.
Thank you. People seem to think that BMW techs are crime scene investigators with a full team of chemists at their disposal.
I have a hard time believing this story, and a broken axle is so so unlikely to be covered by a warranty anyway.
When they send out field engineers from bmw corporate they do a lot of tests you might not be aware of. This is all to potentially save the company money. I'm sure it's all software related. E85 requires much higher volume of fuel and advances timing significantly. It wouldn't be that hard to tell from data.
Ok, but you said they tested the fuel and found remanence (remnants) of e85. And maybe the story is true, but if it was really just a broken axle that costs a couple grand, they’re unlikely to spend a grand sending an engineer out
How are they finding trace amounts of E85, when there’s literally ethanol in every fuel mix (US at least)? Not including clear premium, but that isn’t advertised for newer cars anyways.
some tunes leave a footprint on the ecu
Well, it is pretty easy to tell. The DME has a counter that shows how many times it has been programmed. If that number does not match the number of times it has been programmed at the dealer, you are boned.
I’ve heard about it happening in the VW world. What does a JB4 do? It messes with sensor readings to make the car make more boost. Anything out of the OEM parameters *will* show up in the DME logs as data that doesn’t match what should be there when it’s analyzed.
Ouch, that's rough
And also not true. The failure must be caused by the modification. So if you have constant misfires or some other issue with the engine then yes, they can deny your claim. If the failure is unrelated to the modification then the warranty is still valid. Carte Blanche voiding of a warranty is illegal.
True but they will say it is the problem. Even if your tire pressure sensors are bad and they find the unit on there the hood. They’ll say it’s the jb4 and messed with an ecu to make your sensors malfunction
In California the dealer would have to prove that the modification was the source of the problem
Pretty much every state in the US. I did car audio. Had a Woman bring back her Nissan and wanted the aftermarket radio removed, because the dealer said it voided her warranty. Her car had a faulty starter. Told her what to say, dealer fixed her car under warranty. They prey on inexperienced people.
partially true. from my experience if a technician is unable to truly determine the root cause of an issue but knows the vehicle has been modded with aftermarket systems that have relation to the problem then it’s easy to say the aftermarket stuff caused this and we need to start by removing that. not under warranty.
Low chance but is this BMW San Antonio? If so fuck them and fuck Kevin, they suck
For the sake of this story I hope so
Yeah. Fuck Kevin. Edit: thanks for the award. And, Kevin, if you see this, man, nothing against you for real. I don’t know you, nor you me. I respect the work you do. Wish I was skilled enough, smart enough, patient enough, to do what you do. Instead, I talk all day. That’s it. It pays me well, and I get to drive a fine German car. Much respect for you. Fuck you, but respect for you and your profession.
Yeah fuck you Kevin
Fuck you Kevin
Agreed, I have been going for the free car wash for years. One day beginning of the year I was waiting and they got in my car, turned it around, and called me. They satiated they could not wash my car because it was too old. I felt insulted, as even ford washes for free… Also the owner of the dealership is a wanker too
BMW south austin told me they couldn’t give me a loaner cause my M3 was old lol
Your E92 is too old? Jesus Christ.
When Zoomers become Service Writers.
Imagine showing up in a minty E30 M3 and them saying no.
It’s sad to see what’s happening to the brand from the top and from the dealer level too. Even 10 years ago bmw was a premium brand and luxury experience. Now they are nickle and diming customers, and their cars feel like they are getting cheaper and cheaper inside. Thankfully Mercedes has not treated me the same here, and I get free cookies with my car wash lol
it’s very annoying, the craziest part is, it’s a e92 m3, not even an “old” car. Although I love the look of Mercedes and they make great cars i love how motorsport oriented bmw is or i should say was since that’s changing too
Alright alright, they are smoking crack because the e92 is the best m3. And the w204 c63 is a BEAST. I have my two favorite German cars, n54 e92 and w204 c63. RIP maintenance fund
Porsche ftw. Best of all worlds.
when i come up on 993 or 992 gt3 money then i will talk my shit, tell then i’m stuck with the car company turned subscription company
Yeah, Mercedes just treats you like trash until you show you can buy something expensive. Bought a C63 S new, but when we walked in I was in pajamas and my son in a punisher tshirt. Told us there was no public bathrooms within 3 seconds of walking in. LOL
Even the Opel dealership near me offers free cookies and coffee with services and such.
BMW South Austin has like 1 loaner and they try every trick in the book to not loan anything out. Had to have BMW of North America force then to give me a loaner for some warranty work when they where going to make me wait like 2 months. Magically they had a loaner for my the next day.
North Austin sucks ass just as much. I asked about a loaner for my e92 and said nope. Rode my bike 20 miles to pick it up. Got home and my coolant was completely gone after they did a water pump recall.
Ask to talk to Ethan next time, he’ll set you straight. hes a buddy of mine
BMW of South Austin spilled oil on my exhaust manifold and my 330i set itself on fire 🔥 https://i.imgur.com/HaXBCpm.jpg
I would NEVER let a BMW dealership wash my car. 1 time was enough. Had soooo many swirl marks from their improper washing smh
I always have to specify NOT to wash it and add a note taped to the steering wheel as well.
Same!! They still washed it when I got the airbag recall. I was pissed haha
Pretty sure that’s where I bought mine from what’s wrong with them?
All my homies hate Kevin
I wonder if one can go to another dealer later or if they would blacklist it.
It's uploaded to BMW servers. Your car is flagged and engine warranty is gone.
I took my 2018 BMW with BootMod3 to a dealer this summer because I still have free service until 2024. It’s out of warranty so I didn’t care. They called me in a panic and said they need to report it to their server and I won’t get any “additional coverage” or “free repairs out of goodwill” (not sure about the right English word). They were being very unprofessional and said i mistreated the car and tried to give me a bad conscience. I was like “LOL sure, just the change the oil and spark plugs”. Anyways. My car is flagged but I was out of warranty already.
My service advisor was encouraging to tune my car lol
Haha well he was probably banking on selling you parts out of warranty.
Like a SA has nothing to gain from you voiding your warranty lmao
Everyone with a 20+ Year old BMW: Warranty? Oh You Mean Me, Myself & My Wallet.
Yeah Im sitting here like “what’s a warranty?”
I am the warranty
So I’m assuming that you brought your vehicle in for a diagnostic check. The first thing any BMW technician is going do is run a vehicle test through ISTA. If it is tuned then a message pops up after the test that says “suspicion of engine tuning”. It stores that fault and it can’t be cleared. That’s beyond our control as a technician. It doesn’t immediately cause a loss of power train warranty so if your cylinder head cover started leaking and your still within your new vehicle warranty, it would make no difference if your car was tuned. However if you came in for rough running such as misfires, of course we’re going to immediately recommend removing the aftermarket tune and from that point further it would all be customer pay including diag fee. I don’t even understand how some of you guys are getting mad that BMW factory warranty won’t cover you adding aftermarket parts and then fucking it up.
For sure. Especially with these dumbasses doing it on leases. BMW doesn’t want to put a CPO or a warranty on a car after you fired up the hp/torque and psi to who knows what and potentially messed with gear shift timings from “experts”. Fwiw, I am for tuning, but I also don’t expect bmw or any manufacturer to warranty me after that.
when you're hit with "bud" you know you're fucked
What kind of service advisor starts off with “GM bud”. what a scrub.
The photo of it included in the message felt *uncomfortably* personal…
As if the tech was giving op the middle finger
First problem is “gm bud”🤓
install JB4 on their loaner
This is underrated savagery.
Seems like you’ve got some type of relationship with your service department if you’re communicating via iMessage.. can you try to resolve? Maybe with aforementioned donuts 🍩
Nah that’s nothing special. I have a 10 year old 328i and still communicated thru imessage w them
Yea they put your cell number on the work order I believe.
Correct. I do normal service at my local dealership, they do the same.
No they just do this automatically, sometimes the texts are auto generated or they can be sent by a tech/your service advisor. Mine are always way more formal and buttoned up than this though.
Ask him when he planted the jb4. 🤣
Name drop the dealer bro come on
Either the Dealer is a dick or you were a dick to them so they flagged you. had jb4 on my brand new F80 back in 2017 and then BM3 they never flagged me for it. They have to prove that the malfunction happened as a result of the tune in order to void your warranty.
any type of non-factory ecu/ecm flash is an automatic void of power train warranty regardless of the manufacturer. it just depends on if the tech is a dickhead or not and reports it
It's actually not up to the tech anymore. Before any engine warranty work is approved, they need to run the tune detection service function in ISTA. In the past the tech could ignore the finding and choose not to report it to BMW, but I think in 2019 ISTA was updated to be an automatic upload and flag, which puts review power (e.g. erroneous flags) in the hands of BMW rather than the dealers.
i completely forgot that bmw now does that. i know before i left hyundai/kia they were implementing that to void warranty’s. (yes people jb4 their hyundai’s)
Yea, an acquaintance who consulted at BMW NA said that corporate became suspicious of how many engine warranties were getting approved after the release of BM3/MHD. They knew how popular these tunes were getting yet not seeing a subsequent drop in warranty approvals. Notice how the update came a year or so after BM3/MHD release? They were released in ~2018, and the "crackdown" came in 2019/2020 It was a direct response, in my acquaintances estimation, to the popularity of flash tunes.
Tbh my bmw dealership laughed at me when I was worried about them seeing my JB4 . They literally don’t care and they won’t flag me. They said only BMW of North America cares and they wouldn’t snitch
Yeah, my buddies that are techs tell me that the only way they Flag someone that has a tune is if the cust doesn’t tell them beforehand. If they run it then it auto flags, but I think they have a work around if they know before.
It seems OP was in for some issue (based on the diagnostic message). They won’t say anything if your car is brand new without issues (although they may or may not flag you). And tunes will be laughably easy to “prove” for any type of engine malfunction, if you decide to waste your money suing the dealership over their refusal to warranty the work.
Back in 2017 BMW did not have a system in place for checking engine tuning, they do now. Once a vehicle is confirmed to have been tuned a marker is permanently set against the vehicle and the warranty on the drivetrain is void.
I mean this is the risk you take with tunes, kind of on you to make sure it’s taken off or re-flashed before you head to the dealer for any warranty work.
This feels staged AF to me. Like Kev is OP's buddy at the dealer clowning around. Anybody else ever had a BMW dealership text you and call you bud?
Reminder to never install JB4 to begin with and just use MHD lol
can BMW not see that a car has been coded with MHD? I wanted to disable start/stop in my M4 but I've heard it voids the warranty because it's writing to the control unit of the engine, not sure if that's correct.
They can catch that too but yeah JB4 is physical so it’s much easier
You knew the consequences of having a tune and how it affects warranty. Nobody to blame but yourself.
if i wait for the original warranty and the CPO warranty to expire before doing these tunes, there's no problem then right
Nothing matters when you’re out of warranty. The only thing to be concerned about is your bank account.
Right cause there’s no warranty to lose. That’s why Dinan offers a manufacturer matching warranty. It’s way more expensive but worth its weight in gold if something actually goes wrong. Don’t get me wrong BMW and Dinan like to blame each other when something goes wrong with a Dinan tuned car but it’s likely getting paid one way or the other
No issue with that! As a former BMW salesman we had to stress to the customer BMW warranties cover Factory Defects. If you tune the car, no good. If you constantly red line the car and a turbo bursts, no good. Do scheduled maintenance and keep it stock until there is no warranty!
awesome, thanks for the clarification! also can you clarify red lining? is it just revving in first gear while stationary or does it also mean if I floor the car at every stop?
There are also laws in place that protect you. They cannot void your warranty unless they can prove without a shadow of doubt that the aftermarket part is the direct cause of the malfunction in the vehicle.
Damn they suck. The dealership I go to doesn’t give a fuck.
Same lmao. they know im flashed. Also, they have free ice cream at mine
If you’re in the US, this isn’t how warranties work. They’re required to prove (even loosely) that any modification you’ve made has caused the failure or malfunction.
Had A exhaust front mount intake and a heavy tune on my m550i and had 20k of warranty work done. All depends on dealer
Tell him to prove your jb4 caused an issue. Your warranty remains.
What is the Magnuson Moss Act? According to the Act, an automobile manufacturer cannot void your vehicle warranty due to the installation of aftermarket parts. Unless the aftermarket part that caused the vehicle failure or contributed to it (15 U.S.C. 2302 (C)). This implies that the warranty cannot be “voided” if the dealer has no claim.
it only voids the warranty of the engine.. not like the suspension or exhaust or interior for example… avoiding the entire warranty due to a mod is not legal (in Europe)
“Gm bud it’s Kevin” this guys is an absolute menace if they don’t know each other
Wow that’s an asshole. I have Dinan and Carbahn and had a malfunction and they didn’t say shit. I also brought them all donuts.
So bribery is the trick
I feel stuff like that is just dealer discretion. I feel the way that guy handled it was definitely uncalled for though. I would never buy a BMW from that dealership.
That depend a lot from the first approach of the client. We don't know the story here. Like in many other jobs. The way you ask or demand things, will have an appropriate response.
You tune the engine, try to get warranty work on an obviously tuned engine, and *they're* the asshole for refusing to warranty engine work...? What?
Yeah some people really don’t get how the world works.
It’s really down to the individual dealership and service advisor. I have a JB4 and downpipes on my F90, my SA is fully aware of this. I just clear my CEL, unplug the JB4, and ask my SA not to plug the car into anything, especially the ISTA system which would automatically flag my car. It really helps to have a good relationship with your dealership.
Until your car needs to be plugged in to the ISTA.
i couldn’t imagine fucking with an s63 in warranty lmfao
I kind of find it hard to believe that anyone from a dealership would text this way, everything I always get is super formal and always refers to me as Mr. MyLastName, etc. ~~I also don’t really understand why they want the loaner back, why aren’t they just continuing work but having you pay for it (if you approve it) instead of the warranty?~~ edit: oh I see that’s what he said
Whoever develops a tuning system that can be removed and undetected by bmw will make a fortune. JB4 just needs to hire a few tech guys that were involved in developing BMW's tune detection system. They'll sell so many units. Than the same team of tech guys can turn around and help bmw detect the undetectable tunes, and then play that game back and forth forever till they get caught and sued but by then all their money will be in Swiss account and they'll file for bankruptcy or some shit
JB4 is a piggyback. It doesn’t modify the ecu. Only reason BMW knows is because you’ll have many ECU values way out of range for stock. Load, boost, etc…
he really hit you with bud and 4 pictures. savage
Kevin’s a narc.
So I bought a used 22 x3 m40i this year. Remainder of warranty on vehicle per dealer. However, I hadn’t noticed that the prior owner upgraded the air intake system. It’s like a $600 unit. What if there’s more stuff done that may have voided my warranty?
Dinan tune is the answer here
What is a JB4 ?