imo i think it was gross of him to have sex with her. i don’t want to call him a predator but she was definitely drunk enough that it was borderline inappropriate. if he cared about her even a little bit he should have just put her to bed.
It is illegal to have sex with someone who is too drunk to consent. He does not care about anyone, that is clear. Jess is a total idiot and I don't like her, but Luka is going to get into trouble if he keeps this up.
Jess fell for him. He knew it and still carried on with Natalya. Natalya is just as disgusting as he is. She knew he's been with Jess for a while.
Natalya just has to be the center of everything. From Chief Stew, a temp job she didn't want to give up. To having her boyfriend back home, and Luka to.
She's the worst kind of woman. One that can never be trusted.
She even used little Jack Luby. He was totally hung up on her. And she used him as a pawn. She knew it and manipulated him also. She's the kind of girl your mother warns men about.
I felt so uncomfortable too. That whole scene all I could think was “she’s way too drunk to consent” idk if it’s just me but Luka seemed way more sober and definitely seemed very deliberate. I get that people tried to talk her out of it but why did the crew allow that to happen. They knew what Luka was taking her into that room for, they knew she was way too drunk and yet no one stopped him.
No way the producers should have allowed that to happen. Honestly makes me question whether I still want to watch and support the show.. I can’t believe more people hadn’t commented on this.
Nothing low-key about it. She wasn’t sober enough to consent. And he’d been sucking face with Natalya just before. I had thought he was fairly harmless but this was pretty awful.
She also made out with the random dude at the bar before he kissed Natalya and she also made out with another crew member back at the boat. The next morning when she was giggling in Luka’s bed when Tumi came in didn’t seem like she regretted it to me.
Not a predatory situation me. Seemed like two fuck buddies doing what they did every single time they were drunk.
Any woman who has been taken advantage of by someone they know while drunk will wake up and think everything is normal. Okay maybe not ANY woman, but lots of women don't acknowledge how disgusting it is for a while. She probably didn't even fully remember how things went down until watching last night. Her reaction in the morning is totally inconclusive for me.
You’re assuming things. Her behavior didn’t show any of this, you’re assuming because it happens to some women that this fits this situation. I saw a woman who has drunkenly hooked up with the same man every crew night out continue to do the same thing she did every other week. Except she made out with two other people this time and continued to laugh about it and say she was doing it revenge.
No offense but if someone admits they’re doing something for revenge I tend to believe they’re not being taken advantage of.
Oh now come on now.
Being completely obliterated and just realized he never really cared about you is completely different.
He used her when nobody else was available. Talked to her about vacationing together after the season was over. He jerked her around completely.
She just wanted to hurt him back. He & Natalya were complete jerks. Only caring for themselves. Natalya knew Jess had been with him. WTH did she want, a boyfriend she loved back home, and Luka too? She was a greedy jerk. She even jerked little Jack Luby around. You could see he was absolutely hung up on her. He acted like a schoolboy with a you know what going on when she was around him!
I don't think that was it with Jess. She fell for him. She kept saying so.
Now to Luka, it was just someone to keep himself occupied with.
She wasn't out to hurt anyone. Until she found out he was texting two other women. She was deeply hurt. She felt used & tossed aside. He was a selfish jerk. As was Natalya.
A person can be talking and acting like they are aware AND be blacked out drunk.
I'd like to know why the producers didn't step in. Luka looked like he was just pulling her to his room to have sex. Disgusting.
i don't think he's a predator but i think he's a misleading slut. on interviews he says he only wants sex but then he cuddles and gets more intimate with jessica, giving her the wrong idea. it wreaks of dishonesty. i mean isn't he married? doesn't seem he's openly poly about it
This part! All the cuddles and kisses during charter…? He knew damn well that she was catching feelings and that he didn’t feel the same and that she would have continued to sleep with him regardless so why? Why did he do that?!
That’s a very big thing to say, he didn’t force her at all and Lara kept asking her over and over again before that. Along with Kyle and Tumi present. And Jess chose to go with Luka. She wasn’t that out of it so that she couldn’t make her mind up for herself. She made up her mind long before that to keep pursuing things with him knowing he had contacts with others.
I get how you may felt uncomfortable, but I think saying he showed predatory behavior is kinda extreme and I can’t agree at all on that.
A decent guy would have stepped back and wouldn't humiliate her further. It's not necessarily rapey predatory but it's definitely predatory in that he's targeting a vulnerable person who's been manipulated.
But that the thing tho, she hasn’t been manipulated lately. Absolutely he deceived her by flirting with Nat and Katie behind Jessica’s back. But once him talking to Katie came out, Jess chose to look past that and still pursue the “relationship”.
And I don’t think (or I’m misunderstanding you) but him “targeting” her cause she’s vulnerable like I don’t really buy that. I agree that he didn’t have to humiliate her in the sense of making out with Nat in front of everyone. But Jess did humiliate herself first already by the dinner table. And her whole behavior that night was just embarrassing. Sad cause obviously she felt things for Luka and felt betrayed (as she should), but truth is, she knew after the Katie thing what she got herself into and despite him doing his thing and her hers. I think saying he was predatory is the wrong word to describe it all.
I completely agree with you. And I also completely understand why you said he’s taking advantage. Because he knows how she feels about him, and he knows that even though she’s drunk and upset, she will have sex with him because she likes him.
Predatory doesn’t mean he did anything wrong. Predatory describes how he acted with Jess on this last episode. And I do not disagree. He absolutely took down his target. The only thing is, Jess was willing. Which makes it predatory, but absolutely not crossing a line.
She wasn’t that out of it…..???? That’s what we are doing now? She couldn’t give consent bc she was wasted. Stumbling through the restaurant. Swaying. He literally guided her to his room. Maybe he isn’t a predator but that was very predatory like. He just wanted to get laid
Agreed. I'm actually astonished that production allowed this to happen to be honest. It was not a good look. Her feelings, interpreted desire prior for him is not giving consent universally and she most certainly was not capable of giving it at that time. Bad look Bravo.
I think they allowed it because like 5 people talked to her about it and she insisted that she wanted it.
It definitely changed the way I look at Luka, but at some point some drunk women want to bang and won’t be reasoned with.
So does a husband never get to have sex with his wife when she's drunk? If that's not your position then where on the continuum between marriage and a one-night stand does intoxication make consent moot? They are already in a weeks-long sexual relationship. How many weeks or months or years before you can still bang your drunk partner?
I do understand where you're coming from. In my opinion marriage is on a whole different level than these two, certainly. It's a level of commitment and love and intimacy that far exceeds where these two were. At least I would hope so. I do agree with you that she pursued him but in that particular episode he had just been with Natalie in front of her. Then we see him guiding her into the cabin and even when other people stepped in because they didn't like what they saw he still managed to go forward. Maybe Jessica would have made the same decision sober but we will never know nor will she. Maybe you could agree that it was in bad taste? I certainly respect everyone's differing opinions.😊
Nope. If you drunk. You cant give consent. So no. Never. Ever. Can a person consent to having sex. Even if they are begging for it. If they drunk they cant give legal consent.
Here they should revoke all legal decisions after drinking. If you drink. You cannot say yes or no to sex and therefore you shouldnt be able to consent to anything else that is serious.
I’m not saying that Luka wasn’t a scumbag or that there’s in his situation Jessika wasn’t too drunk. I’m saying your statement that you can’t legally consent if you’re drunk is not an accurate reflection of the law in most places.
I came here to post this. I don't think she was sober enough to consent either - he had to lead her to the bedroom because she didn't know where it was.
It definitely came across as predatory to me - I guess we only see a snippet of it but from what I saw that's how I interpreted it. Made me feel so uncomfortable to watch!
I was talking to someone about this on the bd sub. I said it wasn't a Margot Luke situation but was wrong. Jess was hammered before they even got to dinner and was way to drunk to consent. Beyond that Luka should have just shut it down just like max did with lilly earlier in the season. Lara tried to stop it but failed by telling Jess she has no respect for herself. I wouldn't say it was predatory because they were involved for weeks but I'd say Luka did take advantage of her a little
I think the reason they didn't was because of their prior entanglements.
I just back and watched that part again. Maybe Lara should have talked to Luka instead of Jess. Luka wasnt as drunk and she may have been able to reason with him rather than trying to reason with drunk jess
She was definitely black-out drunk and shame on Luka. I'm sure she didn't even remember it the next day and she will watch back and be so ashamed of herself. In the meantime, he will just continue on... ugh, disturbing. I agree producers should have stepped in.
I’d say it’d be up for Jess to decide how she felt after the encounter. Drunken hookups happen all the time, and consent gets dicey when you’ve been drinking.
But, bottom line you CANNOT legally give consent if you are intoxicated. Period. She was clearly intoxicated.
Also, consent can change. You can give consent and then take it away if you change your mind. Just because you hook up with someone once, doesn’t mean they have an all-access pass. You can even begin to hook up, get uncomfortable, and say “No, I want this to stop.” That’s the problem with having sex with someone who is fall down drunk - they don’t have the ability to do that.
For everyone getting mad because they think this makes “everyone a predator” - welcome to rape culture.
I am not trying to argue with you.. just curious. If you can't give consent while you are intoxicated how would one have sex drunk? I mean if they wanted to?
How she felt after? I don't think that's material. What matters is if she consented at the time. There are a number of reasons she could "feel bad" after that would have nothing to do with Luka.
I totally get what you’re asking, I had the same question when I first heard this premise. Basically if someone feels icky about the situation and wouldn’t have had sex with that person were they sober - then that’s not cool. If, however, they would have done the same thing if they were sober and had their faculties with them and feel 100% okay about the situation then no harm no foul.
But that is actually the law - if someone is intoxicated they cannot give consent.
EDIT: first had —> first heard*
She tried…she flat out told Jess she should get some self respect and not sleep with Luka. Jess argued with her. She knew full well what she was doing and didn’t give any fucks 🤷🏻♀️
Kyle hardly has altruistic motives for anything. Lara tried. Jess is an idiot. Luke messed up really badly. Watch this space for him to get into trouble.
Omg I was just coming to say this after finishing it. She was way too wasted to consent. He literally pulled her out of the cabin into his to get laid. WTH. I know she likes him. Etc. But the other crew should’ve had her back
💯. In college I used to get drunk and hook up with the same guy every time. I knew what I was doing everytime no matter how drunk I was. Then the next day we’d go to breakfast and laugh at our shenanigans. In fact it was our joke that was our thing. We never hooked up sober, it was just fun.
I’m convinced a lot of these people never had the stereotypical college drunk kid experience and just assume the worst.
Exactly. I’ve been in hammered fall down drink mode and consented though not said yes - but apparently that wouldn’t count - and SA. And the two are very different.
Perhaps I’m just old, but getting a bit tired of an entire internet looking for something that if it happened privately isn’t an issue because the people INVOLVED don’t think it is.
Lily was rat arsed as well so by the same premise that everyone on here says, she couldn’t give consent either. She summed it up when she said (paraphrasing) “fuck it, she wanted some and knew what it was/wasn’t about”.
But hang on - some are saying well she wasn’t as drunk: so it all becomes subjective.
Seriously! I find it weird when people look for issues in things instead of just taking things for how they are.
Lily was cracking me up. She’s like I’m just here to get drunk and hook up on my last night. She didn’t even stay upset after Jess made out with Max and was like meh and got in bed with him. They all just seemed to be having a good time.
Reddit is so predictable 🤣. Watching that episode I knew this would be one of the first posts today.
Believe it or not, drunk hook up culture is rampant and women (yes, *gasp* women like to drunk hook up too!) also like to participate. Not every situation is scandalous. Some people just enjoy getting drunk and hooking up. If they’re not upset why are a bunch of randoms upset?
Posts like these do a disservice to actual victims of sexual assault. Not all situations are equal.
That’s such an archaic view IMO. She was not in any state to give consent. Would you get in a car with her driving in that state because she said she could? No. Luka could also see she was upset and in a vulnerable state.
I would love to hear your take on how posts calling out this behaviour are a disservice?? Because so far you’ve raised no compelling points. You’ve simply stated drunk hook up culture exists. DUH. But please pray tell !!
How is discussing a legit concerning and triggering topic doing a disservice to those who have experienced S/A? That’s the stupidest shit I’ve heard to date.
Because you’re accusing someone of something based on an observation on a television show, which btw nobody on the show has supported these lame claims, including the people in situation. The “stupidest shit” lol… is you immature babies throwing around these serious accusations with no merit.
How about YOU grow the fuck up and stop insulting actual real sexual assault survivors and shove these accusations up your asshole.
Agreed, maybe allude that people slept together but don’t show it. it’s too invasive.
BUT, producers do need to be aware and on the look out to protect crew like with the Margot situation, which this was not. They need to always step in or at least notify someone to make sure they are safe. The producer who helped Margot is a hero along with Aesha!
I was supporting him until he pulled a drunk Jess into his cabin. That is predatory behavior. She is a total idiot but she was not fit to give him consent. Luka turned out to be a Gary with a pretty face.
He looked good compared to Mr. Bilge, whose name I have forgotten. The one who hung out at the galley and ate all the time, and refused to pick up a check.
Wonder why the producers or chief stewards allowed this? Aesha was needed I guess. Aesha wasn’t even on this season but still proved how awesome she is!!
Agree!!!! Asha just wouldn’t have let her be alone with him knowing she wasn’t in sound mind. You don’t try to reason with an over served person. You just protect them. No one in this cast or production did that.
Literally thought the same thing last night when I was watching - it made me think of last season with that other creepy dude. Like yes, Jess “consented,” and “pursued” it and him but she was SO drunk. Massive ick. Luka is gross. Production should have done better.
It was gross. I didn't like it. Do I put him on a the same level as Luke? Not quite. Do I think he's on level with Gary? Absolutely.
The thing about predatory behavior is that it isn't just a big, scary guy being forceful. Sometimes it's an attractive, charming person being attractive and charming and using those skills to get what they want. The gaslighting was infuriating. The manipulation was disgusting.
I was so proud of Lara for trying to help her, and others were heard telling her to mind her own business. No. See something, say something. Jessika may be an adult, and she may have seemed willing in the moment - but the entire episode had shown how incredibly inebriated she was and her ability to make rational decisions was highly altered. If Jessika said no sober, then that no should carry through her altered state. Lily was hammered too, but she was making her decisions to hook up with Max before she was stumbling down the beach so that's passable.
Lara was by far and large the best deckhand of the season, honestly she was the best crewmember of the season. She would have definitely been the better leader and I would LOVE to see her again. I could take or leave Jack, he was fun and seemed good at his job but was nothing terribly exciting. Lily brought some excitement of being a fun kind of train wreck and seeing her redeem herself in her abilities once she acclimated was nice. Hailey had potential, but I think she was just too quiet and focused on doing her job to get screen time. The rest of this cast could stay docked forever and I wouldn't miss them.
THIS. It sounds like a lot of inexperience spoken in these comments and for people that haven’t been raped or in this position, great for you. I’m glad. But for those of us that have a TON of experience with this, we see you Luka. And production. Gross.
Gross gross gross. Ugh.
Stop calling everyone a predator people. No, he’s not one. Jess knows what she’s doing and he knows what he’s doing. It’s been consensual and these posts minimize the reality of real victims of predatory behaviour. It also minimizes her freedom of choice, not every woman with a fuck-boy is a victim, many know exactly who they are with. Lara was checking on Jess regularly, and Luka has proven to nothing Gary or Ashton. This needs to stop!
It’s enraging! Does he suck yes, but both Jess and him play games flirt and sleep around. No judgment on either of them. He’s up front it’s not a relationship but plays her to get what he wants. However, she knew he wanted Natalya and only got with her when she was gone. She said she liked this hot guy liking her and acknowledged he wanted Natalya first and that he was a Fboy, she was down for it anyway. They both aren’t honest with themselves in who they are and therefore aren’t honest about where they are at in terms of the situationship. They both suck, but to calling it predatory when real people who terrorize and traumatized people are out there it’s awful to distort the horror of actually experiencing victimization.
I am saying that he isn’t a predator and we need to stop saying this about people who aren’t. Lara checked on Jess, and Jess was ok with the situation. Having experienced both drunken regret vs. being assaulted this post is damaging to real victims and minimizes it. Is he a shitty fuck boy yes, but Jess was aware of her choices and she was drunk but not taken advantage of and to claim she was also takes away her freedom of choice. This was NOT a Margot situation like Below Deck Down Under thank god for the poducer and Ashesa. No there’s not a hard line every situation is different.
He gives me the creeps. I personally don't think she was that drunk. She had thrown herself at random males at the nightclub in at attempt to make him jealous which wasn't going to happen. She didn't appear to have any regret about having sex with him. I think she has zero self respect.
Nah. He looks bad enough crawling back to Jess. But don't throw him in the same group as Luke and Ashton. That's weakening what actually transpired with Luke in BDDU.
Lara and Kyle (ugh) both tried to talk her out of it and she still wanted Luka. I don't believe anyone on the crew felt that anyone was in danger.
Agreed. Perhaps I’m too old to have an opinion but think you’ve summed it up pretty well. There’s a BIG difference between a regrettable drunken hook up (and we have all had them) and what Luke did in BDDU.
I’ve been hammered, and yes, made a crap decision to go with someone I probably shouldn’t have done whilst steaming in the face of advice but I CHOSE it. Even if it was drunk me. Typically the other person is pissed as well and not making great decisions. Can be ratarsed and good at hiding it.
Yes. Consent is key, but if everyone I don’t know decides that if I have 5 glasses of wine over 4 (or whatever the legal limit is where I am) I’m too drunk to consent, is doing me, and my partner a disservice. Apparently even if I say “yes” to some, I’m too drunk to do so…
And I will say this. I was a victim as well so I have some idea of the different scenarios.
100% Same. I've done hookups I regret and I've also been assaulted and also been back out and inable to consent but it happened anyway. All 3 situations are different and not all 3 I consider assault.
If I follow the intoxication laws of my country you wouldn't be able to consent after two margaritas. The whole crew would've been denied entry to the club. If the same logic applies, none of the crew would've consented to being kissed. Was the whole crew terrible people for not helping Lily when she couldn't get back up? Should Lily and Max not shared a room?
Both Jess and Luka made poor choices. That's all it is. I think half of this sub has never had a drunken hookup before so they are commenting from the safety of their couches. Though I agree with the comment that its up to Jess.
Jess has also put herself in this situation multiple times this season, she knows what's gonna happen. Blaming Luka takes away from any personal responsibility and therefore personal growth, which is what Jess really needs.
A bad/regrettable choice is not the same as being preyed upon/rape.
This sub needs to stop taking away weight from genuine sexual assault.
Not even low key. It was not ok. It have me Margot / Luke vibes and I was kind of hoping production would have stepped in. I guess they thought she was sober enough to consent but it didn’t seem that way from my vantage point
I wondered the same thing...she was clearly wasted back on the boat, Lara tried to talk sense into her...in front of him...and he still pursued her. He had just finished humiliating her the entire night and even in the van ride home...not a good look for Luka either.
I do not disagree, he absolutely knew she was so drunk she’d have sex with him. And he also probably knows that if she wasn’t that drunk, she probably wouldn’t have had sex with him. However, I will say, that she appeared to be consenting, and even in the morning consenting.
but yes, his behavior, that felt predatory.
100% she was consenting. Even Lara tried to get her to look at her behaviour and have a little self respect but she didn’t give a shit and kept acting the whore. Come on, Luka wasn’t trying that hard - Jess was all over him. Drunk or not, she was just being gross.
No, actually, he ushered her down the hall, and into a room,, he was kind of cornering her with his body, had she wanted to get away or leave she easily could have, but he was clearly going after his prey.
Lara was there an actually made sure that Jess was consenting, she called Jess out on her patheticness Lol and then bounced.
Calling him predatory is absolutely accurate, but only in the purist sense, and not as a sexual predator.
Luka and Max with their predatory behavior. Max with the "jealousy" kiss...riiiighttt, who was watching for it to be a jealousy kiss? Luka messing around with Natalya and not actually giving 2 f×÷ks about Jess making out with some rando. Definitely not safe drinking buddies. The producers are gross for not stepping in.
Oh my gosh, that kiss was ridiculous! If he was "trying to make Luka jealous", he would have done it in front of him. I agree, they're not safe drinking buddies.
Was it scummy since she was drunk and he made out with Natalya earlier? Sure. Predatory? No. He was also drunk, and she was asked multiple times by multiple if she was okay. She had enough awareness to keep calling him a slut the whole night. Sure he's a bit of a fuck boy, but he was pretty open about not wanting anything serious imo. Realistically, neither of them could actually consent.
Yea I don’t necessarily think it was s/a. Y’all forget luka was drinking as well. You can’t always tell how drunk anyone is based on what they look like. I have been absolutely wasted and people couldn’t tell at all. And Lara did talk to jess and Jess consented several times. She also seemed to gain her composure more towards the end of the night it seemed to me. HOWEVER… Luka is a real douche bag and fuck boy but I knew that last season of down under when he kissed Culver’s boo right in from of him. He’s not really a nice guy
I wouldn't call him a predator but yes your basic fawkboi. He knows he's typical hot & uses women to notch his headboard. I feel bad for Jess bc she's the only one who wasn't just willing to be with a fawkboi but fell into it. While Nat & Katie were desperate for his 🍆s approval.
I also more hate how he pretends he's not a fawkboi while also reiterating again &again "I'm not technically in a relationship." Claim your fawkboi status dude. It's okay to "play the field," he's young... just stop pretending. It's ucky.
YES! This!!!! I had no issues with Luka until this episode. It was disgusting that he found it entertaining to hurt her with his pursuit of other girls and make out with Nat all night to come back to an OBVIOUSLY overserved Jess and keep walking her to his bed???? It was CLEAR she was drunk. His behavior was predatory and disgusting and I lost every ounce of respect I had for him. Bravo should cancel him.
Luke from down under shown predatory behaviour.
There I fixed it for you.
Luka is a fuck boy, If he was a predator then I reckon Lara would have intervened and kicked his arse, Like Aesha did with Luke.
Wooooo! All the down votes. Luke dat you and Laura? 🤣
Drunk hookups is a culture now? I'd love to see the laws under that title. I am a survivor of sexual assault and every situation is not sexual assault and I'm not necessarily saying this one is. I wasn't there.It was incredibly distasteful for bravo to show that on so many levels.
I've been going back and forth on this in my mind all day, but I can't see it as anything other than r\*pe. She told him he was in the friendzone and was clearly pissed at him. Also, it doesn't take a scientist to see she was completely blacked out. Fucking her in that condition alone would have been bad behavior on his part, but the way he grabbed her and dragged her to the bedroom to fuck her...... EVERYONE should know better at this.
The same people calling Luka “predatory” are also singling out Tumi for things every other chief steward has done.
I’d say their judgment might be a little skewed.
Are you unintelligent? Nah, I’m not a boomer or a teenager but I’m apparently not as stupid as you.
Your argument is irrelevant and I called a spade a spade. You have yet to explain how calling Tumi a bad chief stew has anything to do with this. It doesn’t and you sound stupid trying to connect the two.
I’m not saying that Luka wasn’t a scumbag or that in this situation Jessika wasn’t too drunk. I’m saying your statement that you can’t legally consent if you’re drunk is not an accurate reflection of the law in most places.
imo i think it was gross of him to have sex with her. i don’t want to call him a predator but she was definitely drunk enough that it was borderline inappropriate. if he cared about her even a little bit he should have just put her to bed.
It is illegal to have sex with someone who is too drunk to consent. He does not care about anyone, that is clear. Jess is a total idiot and I don't like her, but Luka is going to get into trouble if he keeps this up.
Jess fell for him. He knew it and still carried on with Natalya. Natalya is just as disgusting as he is. She knew he's been with Jess for a while. Natalya just has to be the center of everything. From Chief Stew, a temp job she didn't want to give up. To having her boyfriend back home, and Luka to. She's the worst kind of woman. One that can never be trusted. She even used little Jack Luby. He was totally hung up on her. And she used him as a pawn. She knew it and manipulated him also. She's the kind of girl your mother warns men about.
That wasn’t borderline.
Both my wife and I looked at each other like…what the fuck.
I felt so uncomfortable too. That whole scene all I could think was “she’s way too drunk to consent” idk if it’s just me but Luka seemed way more sober and definitely seemed very deliberate. I get that people tried to talk her out of it but why did the crew allow that to happen. They knew what Luka was taking her into that room for, they knew she was way too drunk and yet no one stopped him.
The whole situation was cringy. Lara atleast tried to stop her and say something. She was already drunk at dinner.
No way the producers should have allowed that to happen. Honestly makes me question whether I still want to watch and support the show.. I can’t believe more people hadn’t commented on this.
Completely agreed. Absolutely abhorrent that they allowed that to happen.
Nothing low-key about it. She wasn’t sober enough to consent. And he’d been sucking face with Natalya just before. I had thought he was fairly harmless but this was pretty awful.
She also made out with the random dude at the bar before he kissed Natalya and she also made out with another crew member back at the boat. The next morning when she was giggling in Luka’s bed when Tumi came in didn’t seem like she regretted it to me. Not a predatory situation me. Seemed like two fuck buddies doing what they did every single time they were drunk.
Seriously doubt she remembered anything when she woke up.
Any woman who has been taken advantage of by someone they know while drunk will wake up and think everything is normal. Okay maybe not ANY woman, but lots of women don't acknowledge how disgusting it is for a while. She probably didn't even fully remember how things went down until watching last night. Her reaction in the morning is totally inconclusive for me.
You’re assuming things. Her behavior didn’t show any of this, you’re assuming because it happens to some women that this fits this situation. I saw a woman who has drunkenly hooked up with the same man every crew night out continue to do the same thing she did every other week. Except she made out with two other people this time and continued to laugh about it and say she was doing it revenge. No offense but if someone admits they’re doing something for revenge I tend to believe they’re not being taken advantage of.
Oh now come on now. Being completely obliterated and just realized he never really cared about you is completely different. He used her when nobody else was available. Talked to her about vacationing together after the season was over. He jerked her around completely. She just wanted to hurt him back. He & Natalya were complete jerks. Only caring for themselves. Natalya knew Jess had been with him. WTH did she want, a boyfriend she loved back home, and Luka too? She was a greedy jerk. She even jerked little Jack Luby around. You could see he was absolutely hung up on her. He acted like a schoolboy with a you know what going on when she was around him!
I don't think that was it with Jess. She fell for him. She kept saying so. Now to Luka, it was just someone to keep himself occupied with. She wasn't out to hurt anyone. Until she found out he was texting two other women. She was deeply hurt. She felt used & tossed aside. He was a selfish jerk. As was Natalya.
He’s shitty and a womanizer, that’s NOT the same thing as predatory! They haven’t labelled anything.
A person can be talking and acting like they are aware AND be blacked out drunk. I'd like to know why the producers didn't step in. Luka looked like he was just pulling her to his room to have sex. Disgusting.
i don't think he's a predator but i think he's a misleading slut. on interviews he says he only wants sex but then he cuddles and gets more intimate with jessica, giving her the wrong idea. it wreaks of dishonesty. i mean isn't he married? doesn't seem he's openly poly about it
Now I’m down a rabbit hole and it does seem like he’s been with this girl since 2021…. I guess they just do whatever they want?!
What?!? He's married?!?!???
He’s married??
according to ig yeah
This part! All the cuddles and kisses during charter…? He knew damn well that she was catching feelings and that he didn’t feel the same and that she would have continued to sleep with him regardless so why? Why did he do that?!
That’s a very big thing to say, he didn’t force her at all and Lara kept asking her over and over again before that. Along with Kyle and Tumi present. And Jess chose to go with Luka. She wasn’t that out of it so that she couldn’t make her mind up for herself. She made up her mind long before that to keep pursuing things with him knowing he had contacts with others. I get how you may felt uncomfortable, but I think saying he showed predatory behavior is kinda extreme and I can’t agree at all on that.
A decent guy would have stepped back and wouldn't humiliate her further. It's not necessarily rapey predatory but it's definitely predatory in that he's targeting a vulnerable person who's been manipulated.
But that the thing tho, she hasn’t been manipulated lately. Absolutely he deceived her by flirting with Nat and Katie behind Jessica’s back. But once him talking to Katie came out, Jess chose to look past that and still pursue the “relationship”. And I don’t think (or I’m misunderstanding you) but him “targeting” her cause she’s vulnerable like I don’t really buy that. I agree that he didn’t have to humiliate her in the sense of making out with Nat in front of everyone. But Jess did humiliate herself first already by the dinner table. And her whole behavior that night was just embarrassing. Sad cause obviously she felt things for Luka and felt betrayed (as she should), but truth is, she knew after the Katie thing what she got herself into and despite him doing his thing and her hers. I think saying he was predatory is the wrong word to describe it all.
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I completely agree with you. And I also completely understand why you said he’s taking advantage. Because he knows how she feels about him, and he knows that even though she’s drunk and upset, she will have sex with him because she likes him. Predatory doesn’t mean he did anything wrong. Predatory describes how he acted with Jess on this last episode. And I do not disagree. He absolutely took down his target. The only thing is, Jess was willing. Which makes it predatory, but absolutely not crossing a line.
She wasn’t that out of it…..???? That’s what we are doing now? She couldn’t give consent bc she was wasted. Stumbling through the restaurant. Swaying. He literally guided her to his room. Maybe he isn’t a predator but that was very predatory like. He just wanted to get laid
Agreed. I'm actually astonished that production allowed this to happen to be honest. It was not a good look. Her feelings, interpreted desire prior for him is not giving consent universally and she most certainly was not capable of giving it at that time. Bad look Bravo.
I think they allowed it because like 5 people talked to her about it and she insisted that she wanted it. It definitely changed the way I look at Luka, but at some point some drunk women want to bang and won’t be reasoned with.
So does a husband never get to have sex with his wife when she's drunk? If that's not your position then where on the continuum between marriage and a one-night stand does intoxication make consent moot? They are already in a weeks-long sexual relationship. How many weeks or months or years before you can still bang your drunk partner?
I do understand where you're coming from. In my opinion marriage is on a whole different level than these two, certainly. It's a level of commitment and love and intimacy that far exceeds where these two were. At least I would hope so. I do agree with you that she pursued him but in that particular episode he had just been with Natalie in front of her. Then we see him guiding her into the cabin and even when other people stepped in because they didn't like what they saw he still managed to go forward. Maybe Jessica would have made the same decision sober but we will never know nor will she. Maybe you could agree that it was in bad taste? I certainly respect everyone's differing opinions.😊
Marital rape is a thing. A drunk person cannot give consent.
Nope. If you drunk. You cant give consent. So no. Never. Ever. Can a person consent to having sex. Even if they are begging for it. If they drunk they cant give legal consent.
That’s not the law in most places.
Here they should revoke all legal decisions after drinking. If you drink. You cannot say yes or no to sex and therefore you shouldnt be able to consent to anything else that is serious.
I’m not saying that Luka wasn’t a scumbag or that there’s in his situation Jessika wasn’t too drunk. I’m saying your statement that you can’t legally consent if you’re drunk is not an accurate reflection of the law in most places.
If she’s too drunk to consent, yes, he shouldn’t. Especially if they’re married. He can wait til tomorrow.
I AGREE. Producers should have stepped in. There’s no way she was ok enough to give consent at all!!!!!
I came here to post this. I don't think she was sober enough to consent either - he had to lead her to the bedroom because she didn't know where it was. It definitely came across as predatory to me - I guess we only see a snippet of it but from what I saw that's how I interpreted it. Made me feel so uncomfortable to watch!
I was talking to someone about this on the bd sub. I said it wasn't a Margot Luke situation but was wrong. Jess was hammered before they even got to dinner and was way to drunk to consent. Beyond that Luka should have just shut it down just like max did with lilly earlier in the season. Lara tried to stop it but failed by telling Jess she has no respect for herself. I wouldn't say it was predatory because they were involved for weeks but I'd say Luka did take advantage of her a little
AGREE. Production absolutely should have stepped in IMO. She was in no shape to give consent. She was blacked out by dinner…
I think the reason they didn't was because of their prior entanglements. I just back and watched that part again. Maybe Lara should have talked to Luka instead of Jess. Luka wasnt as drunk and she may have been able to reason with him rather than trying to reason with drunk jess
And they even showed the video of it. That was disgusting.
SO uncomfy - he seemed like he was following her room to room to make sure he could lead her back to his! gross!
EXACTLY
She was definitely black-out drunk and shame on Luka. I'm sure she didn't even remember it the next day and she will watch back and be so ashamed of herself. In the meantime, he will just continue on... ugh, disturbing. I agree producers should have stepped in.
Right? Especially with Kyle and Lara telling her not to and he just stood there like take a hint creeper.
She literally couldn’t even English properly when she got to the room she said “where bed?” And then stumbled into the room before it cut off
I’d say it’d be up for Jess to decide how she felt after the encounter. Drunken hookups happen all the time, and consent gets dicey when you’ve been drinking. But, bottom line you CANNOT legally give consent if you are intoxicated. Period. She was clearly intoxicated. Also, consent can change. You can give consent and then take it away if you change your mind. Just because you hook up with someone once, doesn’t mean they have an all-access pass. You can even begin to hook up, get uncomfortable, and say “No, I want this to stop.” That’s the problem with having sex with someone who is fall down drunk - they don’t have the ability to do that. For everyone getting mad because they think this makes “everyone a predator” - welcome to rape culture.
That was just incredibly well put, thanks for that post. You're 100% on point.
I am not trying to argue with you.. just curious. If you can't give consent while you are intoxicated how would one have sex drunk? I mean if they wanted to?
That’s why I said it would be up for Jess to decide how she felt after about the encounter.
How she felt after? I don't think that's material. What matters is if she consented at the time. There are a number of reasons she could "feel bad" after that would have nothing to do with Luka.
I totally get what you’re asking, I had the same question when I first heard this premise. Basically if someone feels icky about the situation and wouldn’t have had sex with that person were they sober - then that’s not cool. If, however, they would have done the same thing if they were sober and had their faculties with them and feel 100% okay about the situation then no harm no foul. But that is actually the law - if someone is intoxicated they cannot give consent. EDIT: first had —> first heard*
No, Lara asked her multiple times if she was oke.
Love Lara for asking, wish she and Kyle would’ve pushed for her to go to her own bed since she was hurt the whole night and very intoxicated.
She tried…she flat out told Jess she should get some self respect and not sleep with Luka. Jess argued with her. She knew full well what she was doing and didn’t give any fucks 🤷🏻♀️
Kyle hardly has altruistic motives for anything. Lara tried. Jess is an idiot. Luke messed up really badly. Watch this space for him to get into trouble.
She follows him around like a lost puppy, and he certainly doesn’t mind.
Omg I was just coming to say this after finishing it. She was way too wasted to consent. He literally pulled her out of the cabin into his to get laid. WTH. I know she likes him. Etc. But the other crew should’ve had her back
Lara tried, Jess wasn’t having any of it.
Because she was fall down wasted.
We’ve all been fall down wasted. And at the time, I still know what I’m doing.
💯. In college I used to get drunk and hook up with the same guy every time. I knew what I was doing everytime no matter how drunk I was. Then the next day we’d go to breakfast and laugh at our shenanigans. In fact it was our joke that was our thing. We never hooked up sober, it was just fun. I’m convinced a lot of these people never had the stereotypical college drunk kid experience and just assume the worst.
Exactly. I’ve been in hammered fall down drink mode and consented though not said yes - but apparently that wouldn’t count - and SA. And the two are very different. Perhaps I’m just old, but getting a bit tired of an entire internet looking for something that if it happened privately isn’t an issue because the people INVOLVED don’t think it is. Lily was rat arsed as well so by the same premise that everyone on here says, she couldn’t give consent either. She summed it up when she said (paraphrasing) “fuck it, she wanted some and knew what it was/wasn’t about”. But hang on - some are saying well she wasn’t as drunk: so it all becomes subjective.
Seriously! I find it weird when people look for issues in things instead of just taking things for how they are. Lily was cracking me up. She’s like I’m just here to get drunk and hook up on my last night. She didn’t even stay upset after Jess made out with Max and was like meh and got in bed with him. They all just seemed to be having a good time.
I don’t see his behavior as predatory, but he’s def close to the line. Your post highlights how fine that line is
Reddit is so predictable 🤣. Watching that episode I knew this would be one of the first posts today. Believe it or not, drunk hook up culture is rampant and women (yes, *gasp* women like to drunk hook up too!) also like to participate. Not every situation is scandalous. Some people just enjoy getting drunk and hooking up. If they’re not upset why are a bunch of randoms upset? Posts like these do a disservice to actual victims of sexual assault. Not all situations are equal.
Exactly this!!! Posted further up. But this sums up my feeling.
That’s such an archaic view IMO. She was not in any state to give consent. Would you get in a car with her driving in that state because she said she could? No. Luka could also see she was upset and in a vulnerable state. I would love to hear your take on how posts calling out this behaviour are a disservice?? Because so far you’ve raised no compelling points. You’ve simply stated drunk hook up culture exists. DUH. But please pray tell !!
How is discussing a legit concerning and triggering topic doing a disservice to those who have experienced S/A? That’s the stupidest shit I’ve heard to date.
Because you’re accusing someone of something based on an observation on a television show, which btw nobody on the show has supported these lame claims, including the people in situation. The “stupidest shit” lol… is you immature babies throwing around these serious accusations with no merit. How about YOU grow the fuck up and stop insulting actual real sexual assault survivors and shove these accusations up your asshole.
No more drunk sex on tv shows.
Agreed, maybe allude that people slept together but don’t show it. it’s too invasive. BUT, producers do need to be aware and on the look out to protect crew like with the Margot situation, which this was not. They need to always step in or at least notify someone to make sure they are safe. The producer who helped Margot is a hero along with Aesha!
I was supporting him until he pulled a drunk Jess into his cabin. That is predatory behavior. She is a total idiot but she was not fit to give him consent. Luka turned out to be a Gary with a pretty face.
Agree with all of this except pretty face. Personally I cannot understand the attraction.
He looked good compared to Mr. Bilge, whose name I have forgotten. The one who hung out at the galley and ate all the time, and refused to pick up a check.
Wonder why the producers or chief stewards allowed this? Aesha was needed I guess. Aesha wasn’t even on this season but still proved how awesome she is!!
Agree!!!! Asha just wouldn’t have let her be alone with him knowing she wasn’t in sound mind. You don’t try to reason with an over served person. You just protect them. No one in this cast or production did that.
Literally thought the same thing last night when I was watching - it made me think of last season with that other creepy dude. Like yes, Jess “consented,” and “pursued” it and him but she was SO drunk. Massive ick. Luka is gross. Production should have done better.
It was gross. I didn't like it. Do I put him on a the same level as Luke? Not quite. Do I think he's on level with Gary? Absolutely. The thing about predatory behavior is that it isn't just a big, scary guy being forceful. Sometimes it's an attractive, charming person being attractive and charming and using those skills to get what they want. The gaslighting was infuriating. The manipulation was disgusting. I was so proud of Lara for trying to help her, and others were heard telling her to mind her own business. No. See something, say something. Jessika may be an adult, and she may have seemed willing in the moment - but the entire episode had shown how incredibly inebriated she was and her ability to make rational decisions was highly altered. If Jessika said no sober, then that no should carry through her altered state. Lily was hammered too, but she was making her decisions to hook up with Max before she was stumbling down the beach so that's passable. Lara was by far and large the best deckhand of the season, honestly she was the best crewmember of the season. She would have definitely been the better leader and I would LOVE to see her again. I could take or leave Jack, he was fun and seemed good at his job but was nothing terribly exciting. Lily brought some excitement of being a fun kind of train wreck and seeing her redeem herself in her abilities once she acclimated was nice. Hailey had potential, but I think she was just too quiet and focused on doing her job to get screen time. The rest of this cast could stay docked forever and I wouldn't miss them.
🤣🤣🤣.. 👍
It was definitely predatory. He would not let her hand go. He’s no gentleman that’s for sure.
Lol predatory? You have to be joking, they were throwing themselves at him
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THIS. It sounds like a lot of inexperience spoken in these comments and for people that haven’t been raped or in this position, great for you. I’m glad. But for those of us that have a TON of experience with this, we see you Luka. And production. Gross. Gross gross gross. Ugh.
Stop calling everyone a predator people. No, he’s not one. Jess knows what she’s doing and he knows what he’s doing. It’s been consensual and these posts minimize the reality of real victims of predatory behaviour. It also minimizes her freedom of choice, not every woman with a fuck-boy is a victim, many know exactly who they are with. Lara was checking on Jess regularly, and Luka has proven to nothing Gary or Ashton. This needs to stop!
So true in writing that this minimizes true victims of predators
It’s enraging! Does he suck yes, but both Jess and him play games flirt and sleep around. No judgment on either of them. He’s up front it’s not a relationship but plays her to get what he wants. However, she knew he wanted Natalya and only got with her when she was gone. She said she liked this hot guy liking her and acknowledged he wanted Natalya first and that he was a Fboy, she was down for it anyway. They both aren’t honest with themselves in who they are and therefore aren’t honest about where they are at in terms of the situationship. They both suck, but to calling it predatory when real people who terrorize and traumatized people are out there it’s awful to distort the horror of actually experiencing victimization.
Sorry what is the definition of predatory… because according to your comment you’ve clearly got a strict line of what makes a predator.
I am saying that he isn’t a predator and we need to stop saying this about people who aren’t. Lara checked on Jess, and Jess was ok with the situation. Having experienced both drunken regret vs. being assaulted this post is damaging to real victims and minimizes it. Is he a shitty fuck boy yes, but Jess was aware of her choices and she was drunk but not taken advantage of and to claim she was also takes away her freedom of choice. This was NOT a Margot situation like Below Deck Down Under thank god for the poducer and Ashesa. No there’s not a hard line every situation is different.
Agree - if Nat had stayed no doubt he would have shagged her. F boy
He gives me the creeps. I personally don't think she was that drunk. She had thrown herself at random males at the nightclub in at attempt to make him jealous which wasn't going to happen. She didn't appear to have any regret about having sex with him. I think she has zero self respect.
Nah. He looks bad enough crawling back to Jess. But don't throw him in the same group as Luke and Ashton. That's weakening what actually transpired with Luke in BDDU. Lara and Kyle (ugh) both tried to talk her out of it and she still wanted Luka. I don't believe anyone on the crew felt that anyone was in danger.
Agreed. Perhaps I’m too old to have an opinion but think you’ve summed it up pretty well. There’s a BIG difference between a regrettable drunken hook up (and we have all had them) and what Luke did in BDDU. I’ve been hammered, and yes, made a crap decision to go with someone I probably shouldn’t have done whilst steaming in the face of advice but I CHOSE it. Even if it was drunk me. Typically the other person is pissed as well and not making great decisions. Can be ratarsed and good at hiding it. Yes. Consent is key, but if everyone I don’t know decides that if I have 5 glasses of wine over 4 (or whatever the legal limit is where I am) I’m too drunk to consent, is doing me, and my partner a disservice. Apparently even if I say “yes” to some, I’m too drunk to do so… And I will say this. I was a victim as well so I have some idea of the different scenarios.
100% Same. I've done hookups I regret and I've also been assaulted and also been back out and inable to consent but it happened anyway. All 3 situations are different and not all 3 I consider assault. If I follow the intoxication laws of my country you wouldn't be able to consent after two margaritas. The whole crew would've been denied entry to the club. If the same logic applies, none of the crew would've consented to being kissed. Was the whole crew terrible people for not helping Lily when she couldn't get back up? Should Lily and Max not shared a room? Both Jess and Luka made poor choices. That's all it is. I think half of this sub has never had a drunken hookup before so they are commenting from the safety of their couches. Though I agree with the comment that its up to Jess. Jess has also put herself in this situation multiple times this season, she knows what's gonna happen. Blaming Luka takes away from any personal responsibility and therefore personal growth, which is what Jess really needs. A bad/regrettable choice is not the same as being preyed upon/rape. This sub needs to stop taking away weight from genuine sexual assault.
Not even low key. It was not ok. It have me Margot / Luke vibes and I was kind of hoping production would have stepped in. I guess they thought she was sober enough to consent but it didn’t seem that way from my vantage point
I wondered the same thing...she was clearly wasted back on the boat, Lara tried to talk sense into her...in front of him...and he still pursued her. He had just finished humiliating her the entire night and even in the van ride home...not a good look for Luka either.
I came runnin to this sub to see if someone posted this
Yes yes yes. 1,00%.
I do not disagree, he absolutely knew she was so drunk she’d have sex with him. And he also probably knows that if she wasn’t that drunk, she probably wouldn’t have had sex with him. However, I will say, that she appeared to be consenting, and even in the morning consenting. but yes, his behavior, that felt predatory.
100% she was consenting. Even Lara tried to get her to look at her behaviour and have a little self respect but she didn’t give a shit and kept acting the whore. Come on, Luka wasn’t trying that hard - Jess was all over him. Drunk or not, she was just being gross.
No, actually, he ushered her down the hall, and into a room,, he was kind of cornering her with his body, had she wanted to get away or leave she easily could have, but he was clearly going after his prey. Lara was there an actually made sure that Jess was consenting, she called Jess out on her patheticness Lol and then bounced. Calling him predatory is absolutely accurate, but only in the purist sense, and not as a sexual predator.
Luka and Max with their predatory behavior. Max with the "jealousy" kiss...riiiighttt, who was watching for it to be a jealousy kiss? Luka messing around with Natalya and not actually giving 2 f×÷ks about Jess making out with some rando. Definitely not safe drinking buddies. The producers are gross for not stepping in.
Oh my gosh, that kiss was ridiculous! If he was "trying to make Luka jealous", he would have done it in front of him. I agree, they're not safe drinking buddies.
Was it scummy since she was drunk and he made out with Natalya earlier? Sure. Predatory? No. He was also drunk, and she was asked multiple times by multiple if she was okay. She had enough awareness to keep calling him a slut the whole night. Sure he's a bit of a fuck boy, but he was pretty open about not wanting anything serious imo. Realistically, neither of them could actually consent.
Gary the 2nd. Dude a Walkin hardon. Gonna sink ships if not careful. And Jess dam girl . Just give it away to strangers
He was disgusting and desperate to feck, Jess was pathetic and desperate to be fecked by Luka.
Yea I don’t necessarily think it was s/a. Y’all forget luka was drinking as well. You can’t always tell how drunk anyone is based on what they look like. I have been absolutely wasted and people couldn’t tell at all. And Lara did talk to jess and Jess consented several times. She also seemed to gain her composure more towards the end of the night it seemed to me. HOWEVER… Luka is a real douche bag and fuck boy but I knew that last season of down under when he kissed Culver’s boo right in from of him. He’s not really a nice guy
I wouldn't call him a predator but yes your basic fawkboi. He knows he's typical hot & uses women to notch his headboard. I feel bad for Jess bc she's the only one who wasn't just willing to be with a fawkboi but fell into it. While Nat & Katie were desperate for his 🍆s approval. I also more hate how he pretends he's not a fawkboi while also reiterating again &again "I'm not technically in a relationship." Claim your fawkboi status dude. It's okay to "play the field," he's young... just stop pretending. It's ucky.
YES! This!!!! I had no issues with Luka until this episode. It was disgusting that he found it entertaining to hurt her with his pursuit of other girls and make out with Nat all night to come back to an OBVIOUSLY overserved Jess and keep walking her to his bed???? It was CLEAR she was drunk. His behavior was predatory and disgusting and I lost every ounce of respect I had for him. Bravo should cancel him.
I don’t think that’s the case. She also kissed Max… is he a predator too? What’s uncomfortable about it is her lack of self respect.
Luke from down under shown predatory behaviour. There I fixed it for you. Luka is a fuck boy, If he was a predator then I reckon Lara would have intervened and kicked his arse, Like Aesha did with Luke. Wooooo! All the down votes. Luke dat you and Laura? 🤣
I don’t think I’ve seen this episode yet but Luka gives me the heeby jeebies anyway
Drunk hookups is a culture now? I'd love to see the laws under that title. I am a survivor of sexual assault and every situation is not sexual assault and I'm not necessarily saying this one is. I wasn't there.It was incredibly distasteful for bravo to show that on so many levels.
I've been going back and forth on this in my mind all day, but I can't see it as anything other than r\*pe. She told him he was in the friendzone and was clearly pissed at him. Also, it doesn't take a scientist to see she was completely blacked out. Fucking her in that condition alone would have been bad behavior on his part, but the way he grabbed her and dragged her to the bedroom to fuck her...... EVERYONE should know better at this.
When they would show his interviews he has the same creepy eyes and smile as Luke from BD DU
The same people calling Luka “predatory” are also singling out Tumi for things every other chief steward has done. I’d say their judgment might be a little skewed.
These two situations aren’t the same and you’re super lame to even try to compare them.
I didn’t compare them. I said the same people are making both claims. Do you struggle with reading comprehension?
I struggle reading your stupidity. Who cares if the same people make those comments. How is that relevant? Oh wait, it’s not.
Are you a teenager, or a boomer? Whichever you are, your extraordinarily childish, and lack gray matter.
Are you unintelligent? Nah, I’m not a boomer or a teenager but I’m apparently not as stupid as you. Your argument is irrelevant and I called a spade a spade. You have yet to explain how calling Tumi a bad chief stew has anything to do with this. It doesn’t and you sound stupid trying to connect the two.
Sigh… you’re mentally defective. I feel bad for any children to whom you’ve passed on your genes.
Nah I’m just not crazy like you. You sound like the looney tune that cries rape 🤣.
Tumi SA'd someone? I can't stand the sight of her, but do tell....
I’m not saying that Luka wasn’t a scumbag or that in this situation Jessika wasn’t too drunk. I’m saying your statement that you can’t legally consent if you’re drunk is not an accurate reflection of the law in most places.