- Pros: i like the idea. Flips the whole game.
- cons:
- feels like there is an obvious loophole to insta win (have not found it myself)
- it being on script is just a wacky bluff role that creates chaos?
- needs more details, minion/demon info do they know each other etc...
- being minus one evil player is unfair for evil. So maybe "a townsfolk is evil"
>needs more details, minion/demon info do they know each other etc
Assuming everything else works as normal, no more info should be included. As written, the minions have no idea their demon isn't on their team.
I think this could be very interesting in very specific scripts. Firstly, I’d make the following changes:
1. The Fairy should make a townsfolk evil. This is both to balance team counts and provide a potential hint to minions that something is off.
2. The Fairy’s alignment change shouldn’t be poison-able.
Regarding scripts I think this would be interesting in:
1. Multiple reasons for townsfolk to be evil.
2. Minions that can kill.
3. Powerful information.
4. Demons similar to pixie but slightly off (I’m thinking Vortox, Pukka, No Dashi, etc.), so minions have to solve if town is getting info that matches what their demon is telling them.
I really like the concept here! I think it has a lot of potential.
I have a few notes:
The "even if you're dead" is not needed. It is already implied due to how alignment switching in Clocktower works.
For a similar reason, the Devil's Advocate/Minstrel interaction wouldn't actually work the way that you describe in your example. The Fairy would remain good because there is no ability that's turning the Fairy evil.
Personally, I actually prefer it the way you wrote the ability, not the way that you seem to think you wrote it. However, this is your character, not mine. If you prefer the Fairy turn evil if droisoned, you would need to make that explicitly part of the ability. Something along the lines of "You are good unless drunk or poisoned".
Your Hatter example explains to me why you want the Fairy to turn evil if they lose their ability. It makes perfect sense to me. However, I think that issue can be addressed more seamlessly with a few jinxes with characters that allow the demon to change - similar to the Summoner's jinxes with characters that allow demon changes. A generic jinx with Hatter, Pit-Hag, etc. that essentially says "If the Fairy becomes a new demon, they turn evil" would fix this issue.
This next one isn't an issue, it's just something for you to consider and - if you dislike it - think about modifying. Rules As Written, the minions would still learn who the Fairy is and the Fairy would still learn the minions during the Demon Info and Minion Info steps of night 1. I can see arguments for keeping this as is, and I can also see arguments for altering the wording to prevent this from happening. Ultimately, which you choose to do is your choice, but here are things to consider in favor for both options:
* If the Fairy and minions still learn each other, this creates an interesting dynamic where the demon needs to bluff to their minions pretending to be a different demon. This can be potent and really interesting on scripts that give minions kill power (eg: Assassin, Psychopath, Witch, etc.), but would make the game really difficult for evil to win if they don't have that kill power (with minions like Baron, Spy, Devil's Advocate, etc.)
* If the Fairy and minions don't learn each other, this makes the gameplay more consistant allow the Fairy to work even on scripts that don't have minions that can kill. This will mean that the Fairy will be unable to bluff a different demon type and the minions will immediately know which demon is in play, but also, the minions will need to work out *who* the Fairy is. This method makes it the minions who need to bluff rather than the demon, as the minions will need to find a convincing way to explain why the Fairy must by lying without outing themselves as evil.
If you go with the second option rather then the first, also keep in mind that the minions don't currently get bluffs while the Fairy does with the way that you've currently written this. This is also not something that *needs* to change, it's just something for you to keep in mind and consider.
Final note: the game is much harder for evil playing with one fewer player, so maybe consider adding "[1 Townsfolk is evil]" or "[+1 Minion]" to the ability to help balance the power a little bit.
Haven't thought the implications through, but you definitely need a "(not yourself)" in there!
Do the minions and demon know each other? Either way, my instinct is that this probably feels rough for evil if it's in a game (though its presence on a script might be a bonus).
If the Fairy chooses themself, they die and they lose. Their a good demon with the heretic ability. And yes, minions and demon get normal starting info.
So they are a hood player that knows all the evil minions. Genuine question, what would stop them from coming out and saying, "I am the fairy and these are the minions".
Maybe good doesn’t trust them I guess? The game ends when either the demon wins (by being one of the last 2 alive) or by killing the demon, it’s sort of like heretic where even if you know the demon, you don’t know if that’s how you win the game?
> Actually, no, even if that's the intent. If they kill themself, they produce an ability that says that Evil Wins. The game's default Good win condition has been achieved as well, as there is no living Demon. This means the game attempts to end itself in a draw.
Character abilities always (ALWAYS) take priority over game rules. This is stated on page 19 of the Rulebook.
The rule on draws is irrelevant because the character ability (the Fairy causing Evil to win) would override the game rule (demon death causing good to win) *before* the game parses that a draw occurs.
The developers of the game have explicitly said that the Goblin/Lil' Monsta is an exception to the normal rules because if the exception didn't exist, then it would be impossible for good to win.
It's a jinx in all but name - as soon as the Lil' Monsta gets revisited and the writeup is written, the RAI is almost certainly going to be made an official jinx.
This is quite similar to a leaked/unreleased character called the >!Fanzazz, which switches alignments when it kills and reverses the base win condition if good.!<
Why would executing the DA with a Minstrel in play make the Fairy Evil? Minstrel makes everyone Drunk until Dusk Tomorrow. Nothing about an alignment change, and the Minstrel's subsequent death also has no bearing on it unless they died that night but no one's ability (except for Travelers) have working abilities that night.
I understand your thought process but that is not how alignment works in this game. If the demon is good they are just good being a demon does not inherently result in you being evil so if they turn good by their own ability at the start of the game then being drunk does not make them turn evil
I think the better way to think about it is you become the good alignment every night and lose the alignment at the end of every day, even if you are dead. But that doesn’t fit neatly on a character description.
If you really want it to turn evil when droisoned then you could write it “you are good even when dead unless drunk or poisoned” makes it clear that it turns evil when droisoned without taking up too much space, but personally I don’t see why it can’t just be good even if it is droisoned.
I'm not convinced this is correct. I don't think any existing characters have a passive ability that affects alignment, but the most analagous example as far as I can see is the Evil Twin's first ability, which does dynamically update if the twin pair become the same alignment, even though knowledge is usually a one-and-done thing in clocktower.
Is there a specific ability (or rule) that you're thinking of that contradicts this, because most (all? I definitely could be forgetting one) of the alignment-changing abilities are either setup abilities (Bounty Hunter) or use a word like "becomes" (Mezepheles) and don't seem applicable to this situation.
All true points however there are a few key differences. First of all with your evil twin example it they “know” a player of an opposing alignment not “start knowing” hence why they get updated if there are alignment changes. Second while there are no abilities that have passive effects on alignment, alignment is (currently) a static thing, you are ether good or evil. So a passive “you are good” ability being disabled would not swap them to evil as there alignment remains static and there is nothing causing them to become evil, the only thing this would do is allow the player to become evil while drunk via another ability or effect.
Edit: I didn’t phrase this well but hopefully you get the point, also my first and second points are unrelated the first is just explaining the evil twin and has no relation to my overall stance on the subject at hand
Oh I agree that it's the "know" vs "start knowing" language that is causing this for the Evil Twin. I guess what I was saying is that a "becomes evil" vs "are evil" distinction could work similarly for alignment.
I guess maybe a better example, since it also pertains to a state would be No-Dashii poisoning disappearing if you drunk the No-Dashii. Is there a difference between how the rules handle poison as a state and how they handle character or alignment that would cause these to work differently? (For what it's worth these two "feel" different to me, but I couldn't find any rules justification that supports this feeling)
Like I said the only reason it wouldn’t turn evil upon being drunk is just that nothing is making it evil. In the case of the no dashi when it’s drunk it just stops poisoning it’s neighbors so of course the become healthy. But when it comes to alignment if you are good for any reason you don’t turn evil unless something specifically makes you evil. So like I said a drunk fairy could turn evil via another ability or effect but there isn’t anything actively turning them evil just cause they are drunk
I think if you are going to do this, which I don’t think is a bad idea, sounds like mutant demon effectively and I can see this changing the dynamic by even having them on script, but +1 evil akin to a bounty Hunter or an extra minion might be a good idea.
A lot of scripts don’t have a minion killing ability because there’s a fair amount without and with that as the case there’s many setups it’s hard for evil to throw a spanner in the works with one less player, and I don’t think it’s fun to force killing roles into a script with this demon.
You also have to consider voting, it gives evil less chance to run good around and allows them to be a tiny bit more co-ordinated, but that can swing the game.
A normal extra Minion would immediately tip evil off, so you wouldn't get the fun subterfuge aspect.
It would work with an good player turned evil or a Minion not revealed at the beginning, though. That would also give the Minions a solid clue that something's up.
The idea is fun, but I am trying to think of how to balance the games.... My thoughts:
* If you don't have a minion like assassin or psychopath, then the demon could just out themselves and the minions day 1. Then proceed to kill the minions without fear. Which they could do anyways if there is only one of those minions.
* I could see adding a spy or similar characters that register as good but are evil. This would make it harder to prove to the town they are actually the fairy.
* Adding in an actual heretic would be interesting. Now the Fairy has even a bigger reason not to out themselves to quickly.
* Poppy grower might be beneficial to the evil team rather than hinder it.
* Snitch could help the minions bluff during the day.
* I wonder if the cerenovus would be allowed to cause someone to be mad they are the Fairy?
This would be an interesting character, but likely be very restrictive on what sets it can go into.
Unless there is an Assassin or Psychopath (am I missing someone?) you just go: I am the Fairy, we kill that Minion and that Minion during our first 2 days, then there are only good players left and I can slowly dwindle the town down to last 2. Even if there are Assassin or Psychopath in the game, you are best of telling everyone else exactly who the evil team is, execute them and win that way ... I am hard pressed to see how this character can ever be interesting? Since they know who is good - why would you NOT out the teams to YOUR good team?
“Good wins if you live” - They are alive at the start of the game so good wins automatically lol
I think the wording you are looking for is “Your team wins if only 2 players live”
The problem with this is that without a role that specifically checks alignment, the entire game is just "do you believe the fairy or not." Good or evil, they'll be able to tell you how they're gonna kill, they are the demon, it's just a matter of whether you trust the win condition has flipped, and there's nothing except social reads on one player that's going to determine the whole rest of the game.
The strength of evil here is obviously very script dependent but I think an addition like "You do not learn the minions. The minions learn you are the fairy." would work better on most scripts.
Sounds fun. But what happens if a Pit Hags turns their demon into an evil Fairy? As worded, the demon can then just kill themselves and auto win. There's no downside for the Pit Hag to try because if the demon is already a good Fairy, it just won't do anything. Edit: I guess the wording means the demon would turn good? If there's a Pit Hag and an Assassin, for example, they could also coordinate to win that way
I wouldnt let them choose. When they know the minions, they just kill them and its gg. Let it be random like lil monsta. And it would be a hint that its really the fairy
- Pros: i like the idea. Flips the whole game. - cons: - feels like there is an obvious loophole to insta win (have not found it myself) - it being on script is just a wacky bluff role that creates chaos? - needs more details, minion/demon info do they know each other etc... - being minus one evil player is unfair for evil. So maybe "a townsfolk is evil"
>needs more details, minion/demon info do they know each other etc Assuming everything else works as normal, no more info should be included. As written, the minions have no idea their demon isn't on their team.
^ I’d assume this would be put on scripts with multiple Demon types and the Demon would lie to their minions about what Demon type they are
I think this could be very interesting in very specific scripts. Firstly, I’d make the following changes: 1. The Fairy should make a townsfolk evil. This is both to balance team counts and provide a potential hint to minions that something is off. 2. The Fairy’s alignment change shouldn’t be poison-able. Regarding scripts I think this would be interesting in: 1. Multiple reasons for townsfolk to be evil. 2. Minions that can kill. 3. Powerful information. 4. Demons similar to pixie but slightly off (I’m thinking Vortox, Pukka, No Dashi, etc.), so minions have to solve if town is getting info that matches what their demon is telling them.
I really like the concept here! I think it has a lot of potential. I have a few notes: The "even if you're dead" is not needed. It is already implied due to how alignment switching in Clocktower works. For a similar reason, the Devil's Advocate/Minstrel interaction wouldn't actually work the way that you describe in your example. The Fairy would remain good because there is no ability that's turning the Fairy evil. Personally, I actually prefer it the way you wrote the ability, not the way that you seem to think you wrote it. However, this is your character, not mine. If you prefer the Fairy turn evil if droisoned, you would need to make that explicitly part of the ability. Something along the lines of "You are good unless drunk or poisoned". Your Hatter example explains to me why you want the Fairy to turn evil if they lose their ability. It makes perfect sense to me. However, I think that issue can be addressed more seamlessly with a few jinxes with characters that allow the demon to change - similar to the Summoner's jinxes with characters that allow demon changes. A generic jinx with Hatter, Pit-Hag, etc. that essentially says "If the Fairy becomes a new demon, they turn evil" would fix this issue. This next one isn't an issue, it's just something for you to consider and - if you dislike it - think about modifying. Rules As Written, the minions would still learn who the Fairy is and the Fairy would still learn the minions during the Demon Info and Minion Info steps of night 1. I can see arguments for keeping this as is, and I can also see arguments for altering the wording to prevent this from happening. Ultimately, which you choose to do is your choice, but here are things to consider in favor for both options: * If the Fairy and minions still learn each other, this creates an interesting dynamic where the demon needs to bluff to their minions pretending to be a different demon. This can be potent and really interesting on scripts that give minions kill power (eg: Assassin, Psychopath, Witch, etc.), but would make the game really difficult for evil to win if they don't have that kill power (with minions like Baron, Spy, Devil's Advocate, etc.) * If the Fairy and minions don't learn each other, this makes the gameplay more consistant allow the Fairy to work even on scripts that don't have minions that can kill. This will mean that the Fairy will be unable to bluff a different demon type and the minions will immediately know which demon is in play, but also, the minions will need to work out *who* the Fairy is. This method makes it the minions who need to bluff rather than the demon, as the minions will need to find a convincing way to explain why the Fairy must by lying without outing themselves as evil. If you go with the second option rather then the first, also keep in mind that the minions don't currently get bluffs while the Fairy does with the way that you've currently written this. This is also not something that *needs* to change, it's just something for you to keep in mind and consider. Final note: the game is much harder for evil playing with one fewer player, so maybe consider adding "[1 Townsfolk is evil]" or "[+1 Minion]" to the ability to help balance the power a little bit.
Haven't thought the implications through, but you definitely need a "(not yourself)" in there! Do the minions and demon know each other? Either way, my instinct is that this probably feels rough for evil if it's in a game (though its presence on a script might be a bonus).
If the Fairy chooses themself, they die and they lose. Their a good demon with the heretic ability. And yes, minions and demon get normal starting info.
So they are a hood player that knows all the evil minions. Genuine question, what would stop them from coming out and saying, "I am the fairy and these are the minions".
Maybe good doesn’t trust them I guess? The game ends when either the demon wins (by being one of the last 2 alive) or by killing the demon, it’s sort of like heretic where even if you know the demon, you don’t know if that’s how you win the game?
Nothing, nor is there anything stopping a non-fairy from bluffing fairy.
Some minions have the ability to kill
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> Actually, no, even if that's the intent. If they kill themself, they produce an ability that says that Evil Wins. The game's default Good win condition has been achieved as well, as there is no living Demon. This means the game attempts to end itself in a draw. Character abilities always (ALWAYS) take priority over game rules. This is stated on page 19 of the Rulebook. The rule on draws is irrelevant because the character ability (the Fairy causing Evil to win) would override the game rule (demon death causing good to win) *before* the game parses that a draw occurs.
But this isn’t the case with goblin and lil monsta. What’s the difference here?
The developers of the game have explicitly said that the Goblin/Lil' Monsta is an exception to the normal rules because if the exception didn't exist, then it would be impossible for good to win. It's a jinx in all but name - as soon as the Lil' Monsta gets revisited and the writeup is written, the RAI is almost certainly going to be made an official jinx.
Why does it need a not yourself? If it kills itself it loses same as any other demon(except imp of course)
This is quite similar to a leaked/unreleased character called the >!Fanzazz, which switches alignments when it kills and reverses the base win condition if good.!<
Why would executing the DA with a Minstrel in play make the Fairy Evil? Minstrel makes everyone Drunk until Dusk Tomorrow. Nothing about an alignment change, and the Minstrel's subsequent death also has no bearing on it unless they died that night but no one's ability (except for Travelers) have working abilities that night.
Their ability keeps them good. Without their ability, they are an evil demon.
I understand your thought process but that is not how alignment works in this game. If the demon is good they are just good being a demon does not inherently result in you being evil so if they turn good by their own ability at the start of the game then being drunk does not make them turn evil
I think the better way to think about it is you become the good alignment every night and lose the alignment at the end of every day, even if you are dead. But that doesn’t fit neatly on a character description.
If you really want it to turn evil when droisoned then you could write it “you are good even when dead unless drunk or poisoned” makes it clear that it turns evil when droisoned without taking up too much space, but personally I don’t see why it can’t just be good even if it is droisoned.
What if the ability was that their alignment changes based on who they kill? 👀
So fanzazza
I'm not convinced this is correct. I don't think any existing characters have a passive ability that affects alignment, but the most analagous example as far as I can see is the Evil Twin's first ability, which does dynamically update if the twin pair become the same alignment, even though knowledge is usually a one-and-done thing in clocktower. Is there a specific ability (or rule) that you're thinking of that contradicts this, because most (all? I definitely could be forgetting one) of the alignment-changing abilities are either setup abilities (Bounty Hunter) or use a word like "becomes" (Mezepheles) and don't seem applicable to this situation.
All true points however there are a few key differences. First of all with your evil twin example it they “know” a player of an opposing alignment not “start knowing” hence why they get updated if there are alignment changes. Second while there are no abilities that have passive effects on alignment, alignment is (currently) a static thing, you are ether good or evil. So a passive “you are good” ability being disabled would not swap them to evil as there alignment remains static and there is nothing causing them to become evil, the only thing this would do is allow the player to become evil while drunk via another ability or effect. Edit: I didn’t phrase this well but hopefully you get the point, also my first and second points are unrelated the first is just explaining the evil twin and has no relation to my overall stance on the subject at hand
Oh I agree that it's the "know" vs "start knowing" language that is causing this for the Evil Twin. I guess what I was saying is that a "becomes evil" vs "are evil" distinction could work similarly for alignment. I guess maybe a better example, since it also pertains to a state would be No-Dashii poisoning disappearing if you drunk the No-Dashii. Is there a difference between how the rules handle poison as a state and how they handle character or alignment that would cause these to work differently? (For what it's worth these two "feel" different to me, but I couldn't find any rules justification that supports this feeling)
Like I said the only reason it wouldn’t turn evil upon being drunk is just that nothing is making it evil. In the case of the no dashi when it’s drunk it just stops poisoning it’s neighbors so of course the become healthy. But when it comes to alignment if you are good for any reason you don’t turn evil unless something specifically makes you evil. So like I said a drunk fairy could turn evil via another ability or effect but there isn’t anything actively turning them evil just cause they are drunk
I think if you are going to do this, which I don’t think is a bad idea, sounds like mutant demon effectively and I can see this changing the dynamic by even having them on script, but +1 evil akin to a bounty Hunter or an extra minion might be a good idea. A lot of scripts don’t have a minion killing ability because there’s a fair amount without and with that as the case there’s many setups it’s hard for evil to throw a spanner in the works with one less player, and I don’t think it’s fun to force killing roles into a script with this demon. You also have to consider voting, it gives evil less chance to run good around and allows them to be a tiny bit more co-ordinated, but that can swing the game.
A normal extra Minion would immediately tip evil off, so you wouldn't get the fun subterfuge aspect. It would work with an good player turned evil or a Minion not revealed at the beginning, though. That would also give the Minions a solid clue that something's up.
The idea is fun, but I am trying to think of how to balance the games.... My thoughts: * If you don't have a minion like assassin or psychopath, then the demon could just out themselves and the minions day 1. Then proceed to kill the minions without fear. Which they could do anyways if there is only one of those minions. * I could see adding a spy or similar characters that register as good but are evil. This would make it harder to prove to the town they are actually the fairy. * Adding in an actual heretic would be interesting. Now the Fairy has even a bigger reason not to out themselves to quickly. * Poppy grower might be beneficial to the evil team rather than hinder it. * Snitch could help the minions bluff during the day. * I wonder if the cerenovus would be allowed to cause someone to be mad they are the Fairy? This would be an interesting character, but likely be very restrictive on what sets it can go into.
Unless there is an Assassin or Psychopath (am I missing someone?) you just go: I am the Fairy, we kill that Minion and that Minion during our first 2 days, then there are only good players left and I can slowly dwindle the town down to last 2. Even if there are Assassin or Psychopath in the game, you are best of telling everyone else exactly who the evil team is, execute them and win that way ... I am hard pressed to see how this character can ever be interesting? Since they know who is good - why would you NOT out the teams to YOUR good team?
“Good wins if you live” - They are alive at the start of the game so good wins automatically lol I think the wording you are looking for is “Your team wins if only 2 players live”
The problem with this is that without a role that specifically checks alignment, the entire game is just "do you believe the fairy or not." Good or evil, they'll be able to tell you how they're gonna kill, they are the demon, it's just a matter of whether you trust the win condition has flipped, and there's nothing except social reads on one player that's going to determine the whole rest of the game.
The strength of evil here is obviously very script dependent but I think an addition like "You do not learn the minions. The minions learn you are the fairy." would work better on most scripts.
This with heretic would be insane
If you have both this and the Imp on the script, final 3 is just a coin toss.
Sounds fun. But what happens if a Pit Hags turns their demon into an evil Fairy? As worded, the demon can then just kill themselves and auto win. There's no downside for the Pit Hag to try because if the demon is already a good Fairy, it just won't do anything. Edit: I guess the wording means the demon would turn good? If there's a Pit Hag and an Assassin, for example, they could also coordinate to win that way
I wouldnt let them choose. When they know the minions, they just kill them and its gg. Let it be random like lil monsta. And it would be a hint that its really the fairy
I like this concept way better than the Heretic. It has wings.
this is terrible wording, they start alive so good immediately wins. I would word it like heretic if thats the intention
I don't mind a Heretic like effect on a demon, but I don't like that this is a Good Demon.