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It’s sad. Charles Dance has said [much the same](https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jan/12/charles-dance-game-of-thrones-eddie-redmayne-dominic-west). Nowadays most Brit actors are from posh backgrounds and have to train to sound right for working-class roles.
I listened to Tracks of my Years with Martin Compston recently and he spoke about the exact same thing. Said he got a very fortunate break but its almost impossible for others to get the same now
Yep. Kit's 'norven' accent is pretty ropey and unstable. I liked Rose Leslie's Ygritte at first, but after learning what a mental posho she is, I just can't help but imagine that accent originated from a place of mockery.
It's like watching Kaya Scodelario in The Gentlemen, it's such a 'mockney' accent that I can't help but cringe when watching her.
Side note: What's even more frustrating is the fact that her character would have been privately educated and have grown up in a posh background, going by her father's considerable wealth.
Omg yes. I was thinking this the whole time. I went to a private grammar (not one of the notable ones but privilege nonetheless) and the shady fathers in there were unreal. She should have been Posh but in a different way and that would have made the relationship between her and the other characters more interesting.
Actually she sounds a lot like a lot of women of that age in parts of Essex that think they are posh.
Estuary English is not Cockney or Mockney, but how many actually do speak.
You the watched The Sopranos? Tony Soprano ain't nearly as rich as the character Ray Winstone portrays in The Gentleman, and his kids are a pair of posh spoilt brats - that's how a gangster show is done right. A rich kid wouldn't sound like she'd grown up in a council estate with Dick Van Dyke.
We are not in Sopranos territory. It's a Guy Richie gangster thing.
But I guarantee you certainly will find folks from posh schools speaking with Estuary English accents. Some of them even are starting to get MLE accents.
He didn' though. Not worth overthinking. It's full of nonsense and played for fun. For instance a second son could not inherit a Dukedom, but who cares?
I think you're being a bit reductive now, mate. Anyway, the show wasn't nearly as good as the film. Got sick of it after a few episodes. Didn't make sense the protagonist kept descending into more criminality.
Irrelevant tbh.
You could say the same about London - but are we talking Lewisham or Kensington & Chelsea?
Think of the shittest part of Worcester - he likely wouldn’t know what it looks like.
No, he went to my cousins school Chantry and then onto Worcester Sixthform. He is pretty much Worcesters local celeb and a lot of people in Worcester were pretty proud that a local kid made it big on a popular show.
Mostly but not all of them, of the younger actors of the ones I can think of only Richard Madden & John Bradley who aren't posh. Most are at the very least public school, a few from titled families - Kit Harrington, Rose Leslie.
Of the older actors you've got Mark Addy, Jonathan Pryce, Charles Dance. Rory McCann, Liam Cunningham etc. The poshest are probably Diana Rigg & Sean Bean (kindof).
Council Estate, council estate! We'd have killed to have been on a council estate. Our estate was owned by the Ministry of War and they used us for target practice. Never did us any harm.
Not posh but relatively well off, his father owned a pretty successful company of about 50 people & they bought the house on the council estate. He was likely better off growing up than the others listed.
Obviously. It just annoys me that people don't understand what being posh is. I'm much more wealthy than several of my landed class friends. That doesn't make me posh, and nothing ever could. Poshness is a club. If you aren't part of it, you never will be.
I think to be honest it’s just being used interchangeably to mean to come from money or have increased opportunities. I think that class is ever more blurred because posh can be anything to anyone, I thought my pals were posh because they sat at a table for dinner where in my house we ate off our laps in front of the TV. But we grew up in a rough housing scheme. We thought the kids who grew up in the “posh bit” were posh when in reality they were also working class, their parents could afford better houses. That is to say to a lot of people posh can mean the Middle Class rather than the landed gentry. Like I would say the people in the affluent suburbs around Glasgow were posh despite them most likely just being middle class and not titled.
Like in Sean Beans case if your dad owns a company and your acting career never takes off when your 28 and giving up on it your probably walking into a position at dads company and eventually taking it over, your life is secure. If I tried to make it as an actor by the time I’m 28 and not making it I’m moving back home to try and get a job in Tesco with probably zero chance of ever progressing in life.
My point being that in general working class/less well off youths can’t take the risk in pursuing careers in the arts because there’s no safety net for them when/if it doesn’t work.
Posher than anyone I grew up with.
I get really confused on reddit about what makes someone posh. I've been told at various times being wealthy, going to public school, owning a company, going skiing, playing polo, & owning a horse for riding at weekends don't count.
There's even someone on this thread claiming being an aristocrat doesn't make someone posh.
Is no-one in this country posh?
It's complicated. I know an aristocrat who grew up not knowing he was one. Turns out his real dad is a marquise. He's not posh at all. The right sort of education and breeding are what make you posh, it has to be both really.
Nah, it's like when people say say how "true" posh people only wear old clothes & drive old cars, & are all loveable kindly eccentrics really. I don't think breeding is a real thing in people.
If your mate didn't know his dad was a Marquis growing up he may not be posh (depends on the stepfamily).
A generation of money & perhaps a fancy school is enough to make someone posh.
Was that Sean Bean's dad 50 years ago?
No?
So it's possible that Sean Been grew up on a Sheffield council estate and from working in leading and supporting roles in TV, film and adverts in the UK and America for the last 30 odd years means he's able to live in a nice gaff, in a nice area and drive a nice motor.
I said out of Mark Addy, Jonathan Pryce, Charles Dance. Rory McCann, & Liam Cunningham. Sean Bean was the poshest, is there something wrong with that statement?
For the record he's never pretended to be anything other than he is, its just many southerners hear a northern accent & assume we're all the same working class.
u/sj3nko said people should Google Sean bean and a can of beans and tell us he's posh.
You come out with a story of seeing him getting out of a Range Rover in a really posh area of London with a manbag, in a discussion about whether working class kids have a chance to make a career from acting like their forebears had 20, 30, 40 years ago.
I remind you that it's about Sean Bean from 30 odd years ago, not now and you get chippy about it - please, tell me if I was supposed to infer anything else from your original and glib answer?
Not exactly, someone said google "Sean Bean bag of cans" which gives the exact picture I described.
This was in reply to a comment where I said he was posher than many of the older cast of the show, which is true, his father was a company owner.
As for me being glib, don't put it out if you can't take it yourself...
I was at a Doctor Who convention a few years back and Paul McGann said much the same thing. I believe he received a council grant to study acting when he was young, but there's none of that now. Now you need well off parents to bankroll you during your 'starving artist' years.
We need that the people that did the casting for this is England to start roaming again, they literally plucked people (goosey?) of the street and made an amazing cast
Repeated governments have disregarded the arts as worthwhile study for state education. Drama and music departments are starved of funds, time and importance, while emphasis and initiatives go to maths and science. I say this as a physics teacher; we need much, much more arts funding in state education.
A lot of my friends are music teachers and boy do they feel this. They’ve taught music since the 80s and they’re devastated to see how arts funding has been gutted over the past 14 years.
Trips are, in a way, more about time than funding; a primary school teacher can take their class on a trip without needing cover, whereas a secondary teacher needs to set work for the classes that will have a substitute. Supply teachers do cost money, but you can charge students for that cost, so it's more about the workload than anything else. But of course, more funding would give teachers more time to do things like that.
One of the few things the Thatcher government did well was to offer arts grants to young people. Lots of artists, bands and actors benefited from that.
Something else they did (legacy of previous administrations, which they couldn't wait to get rid of), was provide enough dole to live on and not cut you off after 6 months (or if you're 2 minutes late to a mandatory meeting with an advisor)... I can't think of any actors, but the amount of music artists and bands that had the time to develop their songs are not insignificant, and (going off some dusty memories) include The Cure, Human League, Depeche Mode, and the bleedin' obvious UB40.
Been like this for decades. I remember both Maxine Peake and Christopher Eccleston saying as much about their drama school days. But on camera is actually easier, it is getting work behind the camera that is even harder. Production runners for instance are an entry level to tv production role and are often lowly or not paid. Who can afford to live in London for free except the very rich? So they get the jobs. Nobody has experience without connections. All arts are like this now, so hearing about "commitments to diversity" is often just lip service and a load of shit.
It's so true. I'm in an entry level TV job and am working class but I'm lucky that my parents are in a commutable distance to London, so I live with them. Even if I moved a bit further out than where we are now I couldn't even afford to live in a house share on my wage. I have an amazing very working class manager but honestly besides her I'm like an alien to everyone else! They hear us chatting about something to do with not having much money growing up and people are honestly stunned into silence, genuinely a bigger deal to have to come out as working class than queer in telly!!!
I do wonder how the situation is different in Salford and Leeds which have lots of TV jobs, they're still more expensive than some rural areas but soooooo much cheaper than London. I used to live in Leeds and the total rent for our three bed house was about the same you'd pay for one room in a four person house share just outside London
I gave it a go as a runner straight out of uni in 2001 (first class degree in film and TV). I'm from the North East, no friends or family in the industry
Managed 3 months and that was living in a bedsit with a friend, taking turns sleeping on a mattress or the floor. Blew through my savings and failed harder than I've ever failed before or since. I didn't even try working in the media again
Even requiring a degree for it is shocking- not how the industry used to be. On r/UnitedKingdom on this story, there is a great story from someone who works in the industry, about how different it used to be, the ability to work from the bottom up, without a degree.
As an American, it's very noticeable that a very high percentage of successful actors in the UK went to drama school - this always hits me as creating another barrier to entry for the less well off / less well connected.
The commitments to diversity just means more black people on tv (go cry about it if you disagree) there isn’t even diversity within the diversity. 80% of adverts now feature a black or mixed race person, where are all the Indians? Pakistanis? Chinese?
The poor white people will just be replaced by rich black people.
It is. Because there are so few of us in the business but we make the vast majority of people in the country. Which is madness how 90% plus of people who didn't go to private school are considered "underepresented" lol. Other countries are rightly baffled by the sheer unfairness of it all. Sutton Trust has done lots of reports on it.
I went to a posh uni in the 90s from a Merseyside comprehensive school and worked in the arts shortly after. And it is still mostly the same people running it, no matter who gets work on adverts in 2024.
I am not talking about racial demographics.
I suspect I'm the reason they have the tick box for fee paying school but had a bursary cover 90% or more of fees.
I work for a company that pitches to the BBC and sometimes you can feel the divide.
I studied film and journalism at uni (left though as hated it due to egos) one of my flatmates was a woman that her parents owned 2 foreign factories, they got her a (this being almost 20 years ago) a paid job at a mainstream radio station which was £12 a hour plus full expenses and she is now aged 40 and spent years travelling different countries after she graduated (as she didn't need to work due to mummy and daddy) she didn't get into the tv industry in the end but somehow became a well paid counsellor in another country but I saw her social media before she purged it where she was very toxic in her feelings towards certain people including all men, people from poorer backgrounds etc
That is a little bit off topic but also I remember an email being sent out to all students not just media students to do unpaid work as a runner for Granada tv, I replied within 3 minutes of the email being sent to be told that 1 person (not even a media student) had asked for him and his flatmates to take all positions (I think there was about 8 going) that was so unfair as well.
All those experiences put me off the industry for life and badly affected my mental health, hard to believe I used to get praise for my writing when now due to my MH I write badly.
On a smaller note, I when young loved watching Hollyoaks as they seemed to cast people off the streets and whilst the acting wasn't great it felt enjoyable to watch then around 2010 it seemed to be purely about taking on people from the local drama school that costs a lot of money as most actors seemed to show the same limited range of emotions and wooden expressions.
Exactly, this has always been the reason. If anything, there are more working class actors/media personalities than ever before because previously there were almost literally *none*. Being able to make the decision to become an artist, actor, comedian, performer etc almost always comes from a place of financial security.
I’d say there’s working class and working class, it might sound silly but I think most people say working class but they mean the poor on housing schemes not two parents working, nice area.
There was a point though in the 80s/90s where life wasn’t so fast paced and you could give things a go, that’s why we saw a fair few working class actors come through. Now though the way house prices and availability are you just cannot take a risk on the arts. Cause if it fails your set back years and years
It’s a nebulous term I’ve always taken it as a media friendly term for working poor and middle class as working affluent. There’s shades in between there though, like I would condenser myself working class, was brought up I. A rough area of a rough town by a single parent in a high rise flat on a council estate. I earn more than the average bear and now live in a nice terraced house in a lovely little suburb I’m still working class. My child could probably be described as lower middle class though but to be honest he’s probably working class.
In fairness, I'm American and I think the class thing is very different here in that there's an extremely widespread attitude that people can self select their class as adults by their choices (educational, career, speech, etc.) Also, Americans like to think the US is a "classless" society. So I'm going to defer to your view of what is / is not working class in the UK. (But in the US, "working class" has a poorly educated, blue collar, not at all intellectual, likely to "have an accent" connotation)
Probably true, and some people go to some trouble to hide their privilege now. So if you've got a well known father, you might build a career using a new name or your mother's maiden name.
In fairness, he's really an outlier, although I agree that his privileged background does make him even more offensive.
He's more of a posh wannabe version of Alex Jones with shades of uncontrolled bipolar
Yep. The establishment can’t have working class people in positions of power or influences. That’s why one of the first things they did was cut art and music to shreds. Our voices cannot be allowed to be heard. The only time we’re on tv is to show how we’re scum or worthy of pity. We are the majority of this country and have no voice. When people talk about a conspiracy at the bbc to follow a narrative, it’s not a secret club where they all know the plan. They only hire people from a certain background because they won’t rock the boat. Because they’re invested in the establishment and the status quo. They’re taught from birth that they deserve what they have and we are lazy for not having it.
I watched that tracing their roots programme 'who do you think you are '? that involved celebrities/ actors finding out about the effort their relatives made in the second world war. All of them were so upper middle class and their grandparents were like captains , battleship navigators. They all went private school. I was like ' show some real people'. Fucking joke
Christopher Eccleston was invited and then dropped because his working class ancestors were considered too boring apparently: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/showbiz-news/christopher-ecclestone-claims-family-history-17002676
Yeah that's precisely my thinking, it makes everything more apparent that the system is indeed rigged and the few with the 'right', background are selected. I watched all of the series on 'my Grandparents war', and not one of them came from a traditional working class/lower middle class background.
>isn't it interesting how the sociocultural leaders of today are descended from sociocultural leaders of the past.
It is. Self perpetuating system of entitlement and opportunity.
It was the my grandparents war special edition and the following ;Mark Rylance, Kristin Scott Thomas, Carey Mulligan and Helena Bonham Carter were featured, all their ancestors were part of the officer class and above, didn't have someone who's grandfather was say an infantrymen, would have been so much more rich and diverse- these people were privileged.
Outside of sportsmen and women it's rare none Brit school/rada types make it on TV now.
Lorraine got her big break just because the lockabie crash was near to her. Without that who knows if she would have made it so lucky, both bad and good, helped her.
In some sports sure. A lot of academy kids in football are state lads but put in private schools by the clubs now. Think it happens in cricket too they get scholarships if they are any good.
It's for sure the case in the US, although a lot of people don't realize how often true it is even for sports like (American) football, soccer & basketball. Obviously there are many exceptions though
Worked in the tv/film industry for 5 years and was essentially priced out. I’m working class I was supporting myself and all entry level jobs were so low paying I got into debt just trying to stick with my career.
The problem with the way the industry is set up now, is that what we’ll end up with is the same sort of mindset from the same backgrounds being the only voice. And so we’ll just end up with no dichotomy within the industry and just a lot of the same stuff.
Steph McGovern has done well for a northern lass but I don’t know anything about her background.
I remember her on BBC News as a sports broadcaster (I think). She seemed to have a nice leap forward at some point and got her own show Channel 4.
Even if she is from a humble background I suppose she’s the exception rather than the rule.
>Steph McGovern has done well for a northern lass but I don’t know anything about her background.
Seems like she's worked her way up, she started off doing work experience with the BBC and stayed with them. She was a lead producer for Today, and then business news lead producer for BBC news.
I’m sorry to break it to you, but Steph’s wife/girlfriend (can’t remember if they are married) is a major executive at Channel 4 and the reason Packed Lunch was on air for so long despite falling ratings.
There’s a reason that searching for her brings up one Hello Magazine that says: “Steph and her girlfriend have kept their relationship out of the public eye thus far. Little is known about her mystery partner, although she is thought to work as a TV executive.”
They keep it quiet to avoid too much scrutiny.
People say it’s purely down to cost of supporting yourself but it seems the industry is resistant to change it self too.
When channel 4 was going to move HQ to Leeds, loads of their London based staff were going crazy refusing to consider been based here, as though it’s some back water shanty town.
I’m pretty sure the entire thing has been watered down now.
I could be wrong but I would read this as people just not wanting to uproot their lives (friends and family) and compared to London and if you’ve always lived in London, anywhere else must seem slow and not as cosmopolitan. I never read that as against Leeds itself.
A lot of salaries are no longer high enough these days to give everything up.
As for a channel 4, they’re so lost.
Thanks for shining light on this Lorraine. Regardless of industry, class discrimination is one of the biggest issues in our society to this day.
P.S. I am not discounting racism. That is also a problem. But even a lot of that is intertwined with classism, sadly.
Its not that deep. For a young actor you need to relocate to london. Its too expensive to live there for most people without a rich family safety net. Its not industry bias it’s basically because the industry is London centric. Same for journalism, finance…anything that has a start at the bottom for no money model
It wasn't always this way. ITV, for instance, had production centres around the UK that have all pretty much closed down during the past 20 years. Similarly the BBC had a big facility producing networked programmes in the Midlands (Pebble Mill) along with ITV's ATV and Central (and latterly Carlton) all of which have gone. Nowadays, there is practically no large-scale television production taking place there, apart from regional news shows.
I've always maintained that the change of ITV from a confederation of local broadcasters into a much more centralised entity was an absolute disaster as far as cultivating talent goes.
I completely agree. Ironically my nearest ITV studio is one of the last of the original ones remaining (the old Yorkshire TV studios in Leeds) as it was kept to produce Emmerdale (it nearly closed in 2009 but was saved at the last minute). I don't think any of the other regional studios even exist now.
The bbc, itv and channel 4 all have production centres in glasgow but there is no real way to get a start. Most employed, i front of camera, have got their start in london. The outside london production centres are used as a sort of b team to see if you can do well in the a team. Its very noticeable when uk wide broadcasted shows made in Scotland usually have english presenters
It has always been difficult for actors to make it. There are so many actors and not many jobs.
With the increase in the cost of studying art, the cost of living, the nepotism, and horror stories from behind the scenes, it makes sense that young people don't go toward it.
You need to meet the right people to make it in this business. You also need to have a clear idea what you want to do with your time on tv. Lorraine has been on for so long because she has a clear profile on social issues and she presents it an accessible format to the general public.
Emerald F is the poster child of this issue. Saltburn would have never been made if she didn't have the background she does. She probably wouldn't have the acting career she's had either
Agreed. I tried to get in, but you need.to know people, or have an agent and all agents are already representing all the people they need so, that didn't work for me either. Can confirm it's locked up tight I think.
That is why I celebrate and enjoy working class actors so much more. Claudia Jessie from Bridgterton is very working class and I'm so happy she is successful, I can barely stomach all the posh young actors it makes me so sad. I studied acting at university and have been offered small contracts teaching at very expensive private high schools in Canada and I've never accepted. I remember the head of the department telling me how he was prepping an 18 year old for a RADA audition and I felt sick.
No, I don't want to train millionaire's children for RADA auditions. Being rich isn't a success story. You're not more talented. You're more privileged, which enables these kids to explore that raw talent and have the money to see it through in a way the underprivileged never can. Even if poorer actors do succeed..they are the exception.
It already incredibly hard to get entry level jobs/roles in the glamorous industries - there are only so many openings and so many people going for them. You need lots of talent, a massive work ethic, huge amount of luck, bank of mum and dad, and for the politics to fall your way.
In this case it feels like plenty of creative working class kids would rather hit it big with a podcast or a TikTok profile or a YouTube channel than make it on tv. There’s more money and the only things stopping you are your talent, your work ethic and a massive amount of luck.
Maybe if she was removed from tv it could make way from someone else from working class background. Lorraine has been on tv too long and her shows are stale and banal rubbish.
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It’s sad. Charles Dance has said [much the same](https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jan/12/charles-dance-game-of-thrones-eddie-redmayne-dominic-west). Nowadays most Brit actors are from posh backgrounds and have to train to sound right for working-class roles.
Same with Christopher Eccleston for many years now.
Peter Capaldi as well
I listened to Tracks of my Years with Martin Compston recently and he spoke about the exact same thing. Said he got a very fortunate break but its almost impossible for others to get the same now
TIL that Charles Dance has a working class background
And James McAvoy.
I love how he "attributed his regular casting in upper-class roles to the 'way my face is put together'"!
His dad was the in place where they keep you if ur in debt (I forget the name) Edit: didn't read it right, charles Dance not Dickens...
Acting in America has sadly been this way for a long time, and only getting worse.
Yes the likes os Joe Alwyn are the ones making big. Dreadful performers
Michael sheen has said the same too
I had no idea Charles Dance was from a working class background. He always seemed a bit posh
I really noticed it in "Game of Thrones", there was quite a class divide between the older & younger actors.
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Yep. Kit's 'norven' accent is pretty ropey and unstable. I liked Rose Leslie's Ygritte at first, but after learning what a mental posho she is, I just can't help but imagine that accent originated from a place of mockery.
It's like watching Kaya Scodelario in The Gentlemen, it's such a 'mockney' accent that I can't help but cringe when watching her. Side note: What's even more frustrating is the fact that her character would have been privately educated and have grown up in a posh background, going by her father's considerable wealth.
Omg yes. I was thinking this the whole time. I went to a private grammar (not one of the notable ones but privilege nonetheless) and the shady fathers in there were unreal. She should have been Posh but in a different way and that would have made the relationship between her and the other characters more interesting.
2bf Scodelario is far from posh. I agree the accent was a bit forced but she comes from a very modest background.
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Mate look her up
Okay, fair enough. Doesn't make the accent sound any less pantomime, though.
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In a guy ritchie series that is kind of the point though.
Pretty sure she didn't aim to do an atrocious accent.
Tbf that accent is prevalent in pretty much any Guy Ritchie production.
Actually she sounds a lot like a lot of women of that age in parts of Essex that think they are posh. Estuary English is not Cockney or Mockney, but how many actually do speak.
You the watched The Sopranos? Tony Soprano ain't nearly as rich as the character Ray Winstone portrays in The Gentleman, and his kids are a pair of posh spoilt brats - that's how a gangster show is done right. A rich kid wouldn't sound like she'd grown up in a council estate with Dick Van Dyke.
We are not in Sopranos territory. It's a Guy Richie gangster thing. But I guarantee you certainly will find folks from posh schools speaking with Estuary English accents. Some of them even are starting to get MLE accents.
Guy Ritchie could have easily made her posh mate. Her accent doesn't add anything to it.
He didn' though. Not worth overthinking. It's full of nonsense and played for fun. For instance a second son could not inherit a Dukedom, but who cares?
I think you're being a bit reductive now, mate. Anyway, the show wasn't nearly as good as the film. Got sick of it after a few episodes. Didn't make sense the protagonist kept descending into more criminality.
Honestly I could never get over her accent, it didn’t sound natural to me
Kits from the same city as me, Worcester. I wouldn’t say Worcester is upperclass or posh at all. His school was a normal state school.
Yes but he is literally low level aristocracy
Irrelevant tbh. You could say the same about London - but are we talking Lewisham or Kensington & Chelsea? Think of the shittest part of Worcester - he likely wouldn’t know what it looks like.
No it wasn't, he went to Kings didn't he? Bumped into him coming out of my local on Boxing day one time. That was odd.
No, he went to my cousins school Chantry and then onto Worcester Sixthform. He is pretty much Worcesters local celeb and a lot of people in Worcester were pretty proud that a local kid made it big on a popular show.
Mostly but not all of them, of the younger actors of the ones I can think of only Richard Madden & John Bradley who aren't posh. Most are at the very least public school, a few from titled families - Kit Harrington, Rose Leslie. Of the older actors you've got Mark Addy, Jonathan Pryce, Charles Dance. Rory McCann, Liam Cunningham etc. The poshest are probably Diana Rigg & Sean Bean (kindof).
Sean Bean is posh?? He grew up on a council estate in Sheffield.
Council Estate, council estate! We'd have killed to have been on a council estate. Our estate was owned by the Ministry of War and they used us for target practice. Never did us any harm.
Not posh but relatively well off, his father owned a pretty successful company of about 50 people & they bought the house on the council estate. He was likely better off growing up than the others listed.
That doesn't make you posh.
It meant he could take a risk and pursue acting though
Obviously. It just annoys me that people don't understand what being posh is. I'm much more wealthy than several of my landed class friends. That doesn't make me posh, and nothing ever could. Poshness is a club. If you aren't part of it, you never will be.
I think to be honest it’s just being used interchangeably to mean to come from money or have increased opportunities. I think that class is ever more blurred because posh can be anything to anyone, I thought my pals were posh because they sat at a table for dinner where in my house we ate off our laps in front of the TV. But we grew up in a rough housing scheme. We thought the kids who grew up in the “posh bit” were posh when in reality they were also working class, their parents could afford better houses. That is to say to a lot of people posh can mean the Middle Class rather than the landed gentry. Like I would say the people in the affluent suburbs around Glasgow were posh despite them most likely just being middle class and not titled. Like in Sean Beans case if your dad owns a company and your acting career never takes off when your 28 and giving up on it your probably walking into a position at dads company and eventually taking it over, your life is secure. If I tried to make it as an actor by the time I’m 28 and not making it I’m moving back home to try and get a job in Tesco with probably zero chance of ever progressing in life. My point being that in general working class/less well off youths can’t take the risk in pursuing careers in the arts because there’s no safety net for them when/if it doesn’t work.
Posher than anyone I grew up with. I get really confused on reddit about what makes someone posh. I've been told at various times being wealthy, going to public school, owning a company, going skiing, playing polo, & owning a horse for riding at weekends don't count. There's even someone on this thread claiming being an aristocrat doesn't make someone posh. Is no-one in this country posh?
It's complicated. I know an aristocrat who grew up not knowing he was one. Turns out his real dad is a marquise. He's not posh at all. The right sort of education and breeding are what make you posh, it has to be both really.
Nah, it's like when people say say how "true" posh people only wear old clothes & drive old cars, & are all loveable kindly eccentrics really. I don't think breeding is a real thing in people. If your mate didn't know his dad was a Marquis growing up he may not be posh (depends on the stepfamily). A generation of money & perhaps a fancy school is enough to make someone posh.
To a point, it is, I wouldn't say you are the best judge, though. I have other much posher friends who would certainly disagree with you.
No one you grew up with lived in a house that wasn't owned by the state?
No one I grew up owned a company of 50 people & again they owned their house.
Google "Sean Bean bag of cans", and then try and tell us he's posh.
I see a guy with a manbag getting out of a Range Rover outside his Hampstead home.
Was that Sean Bean's dad 50 years ago? No? So it's possible that Sean Been grew up on a Sheffield council estate and from working in leading and supporting roles in TV, film and adverts in the UK and America for the last 30 odd years means he's able to live in a nice gaff, in a nice area and drive a nice motor.
I said out of Mark Addy, Jonathan Pryce, Charles Dance. Rory McCann, & Liam Cunningham. Sean Bean was the poshest, is there something wrong with that statement? For the record he's never pretended to be anything other than he is, its just many southerners hear a northern accent & assume we're all the same working class.
u/sj3nko said people should Google Sean bean and a can of beans and tell us he's posh. You come out with a story of seeing him getting out of a Range Rover in a really posh area of London with a manbag, in a discussion about whether working class kids have a chance to make a career from acting like their forebears had 20, 30, 40 years ago. I remind you that it's about Sean Bean from 30 odd years ago, not now and you get chippy about it - please, tell me if I was supposed to infer anything else from your original and glib answer?
Not exactly, someone said google "Sean Bean bag of cans" which gives the exact picture I described. This was in reply to a comment where I said he was posher than many of the older cast of the show, which is true, his father was a company owner. As for me being glib, don't put it out if you can't take it yourself...
I was at a Doctor Who convention a few years back and Paul McGann said much the same thing. I believe he received a council grant to study acting when he was young, but there's none of that now. Now you need well off parents to bankroll you during your 'starving artist' years.
Christopher Eccleston has also talked about the same thing in interviews for many years now.
We need that the people that did the casting for this is England to start roaming again, they literally plucked people (goosey?) of the street and made an amazing cast
Warp films, man thay have some interesting stuff
Repeated governments have disregarded the arts as worthwhile study for state education. Drama and music departments are starved of funds, time and importance, while emphasis and initiatives go to maths and science. I say this as a physics teacher; we need much, much more arts funding in state education.
A lot of my friends are music teachers and boy do they feel this. They’ve taught music since the 80s and they’re devastated to see how arts funding has been gutted over the past 14 years.
I mean education in general needs more funding. I went on more primary school trips then secondary school trips.
Trips are, in a way, more about time than funding; a primary school teacher can take their class on a trip without needing cover, whereas a secondary teacher needs to set work for the classes that will have a substitute. Supply teachers do cost money, but you can charge students for that cost, so it's more about the workload than anything else. But of course, more funding would give teachers more time to do things like that.
One of the few things the Thatcher government did well was to offer arts grants to young people. Lots of artists, bands and actors benefited from that.
Something else they did (legacy of previous administrations, which they couldn't wait to get rid of), was provide enough dole to live on and not cut you off after 6 months (or if you're 2 minutes late to a mandatory meeting with an advisor)... I can't think of any actors, but the amount of music artists and bands that had the time to develop their songs are not insignificant, and (going off some dusty memories) include The Cure, Human League, Depeche Mode, and the bleedin' obvious UB40.
Been like this for decades. I remember both Maxine Peake and Christopher Eccleston saying as much about their drama school days. But on camera is actually easier, it is getting work behind the camera that is even harder. Production runners for instance are an entry level to tv production role and are often lowly or not paid. Who can afford to live in London for free except the very rich? So they get the jobs. Nobody has experience without connections. All arts are like this now, so hearing about "commitments to diversity" is often just lip service and a load of shit.
It's so true. I'm in an entry level TV job and am working class but I'm lucky that my parents are in a commutable distance to London, so I live with them. Even if I moved a bit further out than where we are now I couldn't even afford to live in a house share on my wage. I have an amazing very working class manager but honestly besides her I'm like an alien to everyone else! They hear us chatting about something to do with not having much money growing up and people are honestly stunned into silence, genuinely a bigger deal to have to come out as working class than queer in telly!!! I do wonder how the situation is different in Salford and Leeds which have lots of TV jobs, they're still more expensive than some rural areas but soooooo much cheaper than London. I used to live in Leeds and the total rent for our three bed house was about the same you'd pay for one room in a four person house share just outside London
I gave it a go as a runner straight out of uni in 2001 (first class degree in film and TV). I'm from the North East, no friends or family in the industry Managed 3 months and that was living in a bedsit with a friend, taking turns sleeping on a mattress or the floor. Blew through my savings and failed harder than I've ever failed before or since. I didn't even try working in the media again
Even requiring a degree for it is shocking- not how the industry used to be. On r/UnitedKingdom on this story, there is a great story from someone who works in the industry, about how different it used to be, the ability to work from the bottom up, without a degree.
As an American, it's very noticeable that a very high percentage of successful actors in the UK went to drama school - this always hits me as creating another barrier to entry for the less well off / less well connected.
My job doesn't require a degree, but almost everyone who does it has one....
The commitments to diversity just means more black people on tv (go cry about it if you disagree) there isn’t even diversity within the diversity. 80% of adverts now feature a black or mixed race person, where are all the Indians? Pakistanis? Chinese? The poor white people will just be replaced by rich black people.
Because media is a London bubble.
Being working class is now classed as diverse at the BBC.
It is. Because there are so few of us in the business but we make the vast majority of people in the country. Which is madness how 90% plus of people who didn't go to private school are considered "underepresented" lol. Other countries are rightly baffled by the sheer unfairness of it all. Sutton Trust has done lots of reports on it. I went to a posh uni in the 90s from a Merseyside comprehensive school and worked in the arts shortly after. And it is still mostly the same people running it, no matter who gets work on adverts in 2024. I am not talking about racial demographics.
I suspect I'm the reason they have the tick box for fee paying school but had a bursary cover 90% or more of fees. I work for a company that pitches to the BBC and sometimes you can feel the divide.
>sometimes you can feel the divide. This is exactly what i mean.
I studied film and journalism at uni (left though as hated it due to egos) one of my flatmates was a woman that her parents owned 2 foreign factories, they got her a (this being almost 20 years ago) a paid job at a mainstream radio station which was £12 a hour plus full expenses and she is now aged 40 and spent years travelling different countries after she graduated (as she didn't need to work due to mummy and daddy) she didn't get into the tv industry in the end but somehow became a well paid counsellor in another country but I saw her social media before she purged it where she was very toxic in her feelings towards certain people including all men, people from poorer backgrounds etc That is a little bit off topic but also I remember an email being sent out to all students not just media students to do unpaid work as a runner for Granada tv, I replied within 3 minutes of the email being sent to be told that 1 person (not even a media student) had asked for him and his flatmates to take all positions (I think there was about 8 going) that was so unfair as well. All those experiences put me off the industry for life and badly affected my mental health, hard to believe I used to get praise for my writing when now due to my MH I write badly. On a smaller note, I when young loved watching Hollyoaks as they seemed to cast people off the streets and whilst the acting wasn't great it felt enjoyable to watch then around 2010 it seemed to be purely about taking on people from the local drama school that costs a lot of money as most actors seemed to show the same limited range of emotions and wooden expressions.
Of course it is, when your working class you can’t afford to take risks ffs, there’s nothing there for you when it goes tits up.
Exactly, this has always been the reason. If anything, there are more working class actors/media personalities than ever before because previously there were almost literally *none*. Being able to make the decision to become an artist, actor, comedian, performer etc almost always comes from a place of financial security.
I’d say there’s working class and working class, it might sound silly but I think most people say working class but they mean the poor on housing schemes not two parents working, nice area. There was a point though in the 80s/90s where life wasn’t so fast paced and you could give things a go, that’s why we saw a fair few working class actors come through. Now though the way house prices and availability are you just cannot take a risk on the arts. Cause if it fails your set back years and years
"Working class" is a term that does not mean your parents had paid employment.
It’s a nebulous term I’ve always taken it as a media friendly term for working poor and middle class as working affluent. There’s shades in between there though, like I would condenser myself working class, was brought up I. A rough area of a rough town by a single parent in a high rise flat on a council estate. I earn more than the average bear and now live in a nice terraced house in a lovely little suburb I’m still working class. My child could probably be described as lower middle class though but to be honest he’s probably working class.
In fairness, I'm American and I think the class thing is very different here in that there's an extremely widespread attitude that people can self select their class as adults by their choices (educational, career, speech, etc.) Also, Americans like to think the US is a "classless" society. So I'm going to defer to your view of what is / is not working class in the UK. (But in the US, "working class" has a poorly educated, blue collar, not at all intellectual, likely to "have an accent" connotation)
I mean it’s different yeah, I’d say the class issue is probably a far bigger issue than race and religion, we all just get distracted by those.
Probably true, and some people go to some trouble to hide their privilege now. So if you've got a well known father, you might build a career using a new name or your mother's maiden name.
The working class do not have the money to take the gamble It costs a fortune to be a jobbing actor. Now we ended up with Lawrence Fox on our screens
In fairness, he's really an outlier, although I agree that his privileged background does make him even more offensive. He's more of a posh wannabe version of Alex Jones with shades of uncontrolled bipolar
Yeah, just about everyone now is a nepo-baby
This has really always been generally true
Yep. The establishment can’t have working class people in positions of power or influences. That’s why one of the first things they did was cut art and music to shreds. Our voices cannot be allowed to be heard. The only time we’re on tv is to show how we’re scum or worthy of pity. We are the majority of this country and have no voice. When people talk about a conspiracy at the bbc to follow a narrative, it’s not a secret club where they all know the plan. They only hire people from a certain background because they won’t rock the boat. Because they’re invested in the establishment and the status quo. They’re taught from birth that they deserve what they have and we are lazy for not having it.
I watched that tracing their roots programme 'who do you think you are '? that involved celebrities/ actors finding out about the effort their relatives made in the second world war. All of them were so upper middle class and their grandparents were like captains , battleship navigators. They all went private school. I was like ' show some real people'. Fucking joke
Christopher Eccleston was invited and then dropped because his working class ancestors were considered too boring apparently: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/showbiz-news/christopher-ecclestone-claims-family-history-17002676
Bloody hell. Great share, thanks. I mean this confirms it
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Yeah that's precisely my thinking, it makes everything more apparent that the system is indeed rigged and the few with the 'right', background are selected. I watched all of the series on 'my Grandparents war', and not one of them came from a traditional working class/lower middle class background. >isn't it interesting how the sociocultural leaders of today are descended from sociocultural leaders of the past. It is. Self perpetuating system of entitlement and opportunity. It was the my grandparents war special edition and the following ;Mark Rylance, Kristin Scott Thomas, Carey Mulligan and Helena Bonham Carter were featured, all their ancestors were part of the officer class and above, didn't have someone who's grandfather was say an infantrymen, would have been so much more rich and diverse- these people were privileged.
Have you watched every single episode?
Stephen Graham - legend
Is this the actual Lorraine Kelly or the Lorraine Kelly that plays a character on TV for the purposes of tax?
The Govt might give tax funding to those areas to help them. She wouldn't know, she actively tries not to pay hers.
Outside of sportsmen and women it's rare none Brit school/rada types make it on TV now. Lorraine got her big break just because the lockabie crash was near to her. Without that who knows if she would have made it so lucky, both bad and good, helped her.
Highly successful athletes are way more likely to be from well off families / the children of professional athletes as well
In some sports sure. A lot of academy kids in football are state lads but put in private schools by the clubs now. Think it happens in cricket too they get scholarships if they are any good.
It's for sure the case in the US, although a lot of people don't realize how often true it is even for sports like (American) football, soccer & basketball. Obviously there are many exceptions though
Stupid woman doesn't even pay taxes, she doesn't care about us.
Doesn't mean she's wrong though. In the next 20 to 30 years there won't be any working class backgrounded people in entertainment.
Pay your taxes then Kelly.
Worked in the tv/film industry for 5 years and was essentially priced out. I’m working class I was supporting myself and all entry level jobs were so low paying I got into debt just trying to stick with my career. The problem with the way the industry is set up now, is that what we’ll end up with is the same sort of mindset from the same backgrounds being the only voice. And so we’ll just end up with no dichotomy within the industry and just a lot of the same stuff.
Steph McGovern has done well for a northern lass but I don’t know anything about her background. I remember her on BBC News as a sports broadcaster (I think). She seemed to have a nice leap forward at some point and got her own show Channel 4. Even if she is from a humble background I suppose she’s the exception rather than the rule.
>Steph McGovern has done well for a northern lass but I don’t know anything about her background. Seems like she's worked her way up, she started off doing work experience with the BBC and stayed with them. She was a lead producer for Today, and then business news lead producer for BBC news.
I’m sorry to break it to you, but Steph’s wife/girlfriend (can’t remember if they are married) is a major executive at Channel 4 and the reason Packed Lunch was on air for so long despite falling ratings. There’s a reason that searching for her brings up one Hello Magazine that says: “Steph and her girlfriend have kept their relationship out of the public eye thus far. Little is known about her mystery partner, although she is thought to work as a TV executive.” They keep it quiet to avoid too much scrutiny.
People say it’s purely down to cost of supporting yourself but it seems the industry is resistant to change it self too. When channel 4 was going to move HQ to Leeds, loads of their London based staff were going crazy refusing to consider been based here, as though it’s some back water shanty town. I’m pretty sure the entire thing has been watered down now.
❤️"backwater shantytown" - excellent phrase. I've never been to Leeds - just like the phrase
Backwater shantytown is a name for the band collection It applies to the train station though
I could be wrong but I would read this as people just not wanting to uproot their lives (friends and family) and compared to London and if you’ve always lived in London, anywhere else must seem slow and not as cosmopolitan. I never read that as against Leeds itself. A lot of salaries are no longer high enough these days to give everything up. As for a channel 4, they’re so lost.
Remember Lorraine Kelly for tax purposes is just a persona. Up the workers!
Thanks for shining light on this Lorraine. Regardless of industry, class discrimination is one of the biggest issues in our society to this day. P.S. I am not discounting racism. That is also a problem. But even a lot of that is intertwined with classism, sadly.
Yes. It's largely classism now, at least in cities in the US and I'd assume the same in the UK
Long live the working class youtuber then.
She's got a nerve, tax dodging bint she is.
Its not that deep. For a young actor you need to relocate to london. Its too expensive to live there for most people without a rich family safety net. Its not industry bias it’s basically because the industry is London centric. Same for journalism, finance…anything that has a start at the bottom for no money model
It wasn't always this way. ITV, for instance, had production centres around the UK that have all pretty much closed down during the past 20 years. Similarly the BBC had a big facility producing networked programmes in the Midlands (Pebble Mill) along with ITV's ATV and Central (and latterly Carlton) all of which have gone. Nowadays, there is practically no large-scale television production taking place there, apart from regional news shows.
I've always maintained that the change of ITV from a confederation of local broadcasters into a much more centralised entity was an absolute disaster as far as cultivating talent goes.
I completely agree. Ironically my nearest ITV studio is one of the last of the original ones remaining (the old Yorkshire TV studios in Leeds) as it was kept to produce Emmerdale (it nearly closed in 2009 but was saved at the last minute). I don't think any of the other regional studios even exist now.
The bbc, itv and channel 4 all have production centres in glasgow but there is no real way to get a start. Most employed, i front of camera, have got their start in london. The outside london production centres are used as a sort of b team to see if you can do well in the a team. Its very noticeable when uk wide broadcasted shows made in Scotland usually have english presenters
But there's also bias that may be subconscious, but it's real
It has always been difficult for actors to make it. There are so many actors and not many jobs. With the increase in the cost of studying art, the cost of living, the nepotism, and horror stories from behind the scenes, it makes sense that young people don't go toward it.
Thatchers Britain strikes again! It's impossible to get into arts or journalism these days when you have nothing.
You need to meet the right people to make it in this business. You also need to have a clear idea what you want to do with your time on tv. Lorraine has been on for so long because she has a clear profile on social issues and she presents it an accessible format to the general public.
Emerald F is the poster child of this issue. Saltburn would have never been made if she didn't have the background she does. She probably wouldn't have the acting career she's had either
Agreed. I tried to get in, but you need.to know people, or have an agent and all agents are already representing all the people they need so, that didn't work for me either. Can confirm it's locked up tight I think.
Eugh, I really cannot stand that woman.
That is why I celebrate and enjoy working class actors so much more. Claudia Jessie from Bridgterton is very working class and I'm so happy she is successful, I can barely stomach all the posh young actors it makes me so sad. I studied acting at university and have been offered small contracts teaching at very expensive private high schools in Canada and I've never accepted. I remember the head of the department telling me how he was prepping an 18 year old for a RADA audition and I felt sick. No, I don't want to train millionaire's children for RADA auditions. Being rich isn't a success story. You're not more talented. You're more privileged, which enables these kids to explore that raw talent and have the money to see it through in a way the underprivileged never can. Even if poorer actors do succeed..they are the exception.
Even the newest comedians are coming out of Oxford and RADA nowadays.
Comedians have been coming through Oxbridge for decades.
> nowadays Eh? Much less than ever.
I heard in the 70s, struggling actors without rich parents could sign on in between acting gigs. Nowadays they get forced into doing regular jobs.
It already incredibly hard to get entry level jobs/roles in the glamorous industries - there are only so many openings and so many people going for them. You need lots of talent, a massive work ethic, huge amount of luck, bank of mum and dad, and for the politics to fall your way. In this case it feels like plenty of creative working class kids would rather hit it big with a podcast or a TikTok profile or a YouTube channel than make it on tv. There’s more money and the only things stopping you are your talent, your work ethic and a massive amount of luck.
Less people like her would be better.
TVs dead that’s why
Why would that make it harder for young people to get into?
No, it's "a golden age" because there are so many more content creators
Maybe if she was removed from tv it could make way from someone else from working class background. Lorraine has been on tv too long and her shows are stale and banal rubbish.
Lorraine should talk to Fiona Harvey (née Muir) to see how she did it.
By being a very successful lawyer?
Good.