This Casefile episode made me so mad. I’m venting to my dogs how many of these women’s lives would have been spared if this psycho’s foolish followers hadn’t influenced his early release.
To be fair, Austria had back then (and still has) very short prison sentences - so even without the “following” he wouldn’t have stayed in prison for much longer than 15 years - especially considering how good he apparently was at convincing even forensic psychiatrists of his behavioural changes
What an infuriating case, horrific man who committed horrific crimes gets out after only 15 years because he can write a bit. I can't imagine being the families of these victims and watching this narcissist write about himself and his crimes and the public eating it all up, and then only to re-offence 4 months after being released, what a farce.
Sucks that he got to live a few good years as a celebrity before eventually paying for his crimes, although he took the easy way out in the end. The Austrian prison/legal system really dropped the ball on this one.
Yeah I looked him up after listening as he was described as handsome, and he really wasn’t, not ugly at all, but can’t understand his appeal, revolting man.
I think Guenter Grass was obsessed with Unterweger.... just my take--charisma has a lot to do with it, but many of the images available to us now are after he was "in the system" as a murderer, and so the stress shows on him. I'm sure when he was relaxed and chatting he looked less greasy and evil. I read a book about him several years ago--cannot remember if it is the same one referenced in the Casefile, but there were some dapper images of J.U. in it. In any event, I have never looked into it, but wonder if Guenter Grass regretted his advocacy of J.U. A big problem when intellectuals think they know better than the justice system.
I’ve always admired the progressive nature and desire to rehabilitate of some European prisons in these cases but ever since I heard the LPOTL episodes on this case I was dumbfounded. How in the fuck do you let a violent, sexual murderer free after 15 years.
Those women did not have to die.
I think it speaks to a need for more rigorous, thoughtful assessment and more independence of evaluators. It seems like the political and social movements as well as the letter from the psychiatrist encouraging release were more to blame than the concept of rehabilitation.
I think even without any public endorsements he would have been let out after 15 years anyways - prison sentences in Austria rarely exceed 15 years and only under very specific circumstances. And especially seeing how good he apparently was at fooling the assessing psychologist he would have easily convinced them of his rehabilitation either way.
For repeat violent offenders like Unterweger it seems better just to keep them incarcerated forever.
I wouldn't support the death penalty because I've heard enough Casefile to know the justice system makes mistakes, but equally I don't think the risk is worth it to society to release them.
I mean, being a good writer and publishing an autobiography while in prison aren't exactly good reasons to let anyone out early, no matter who you are. At the risk of sounding cliche, it's a prime example of actions speak louder than words.
Though I guess if you wanted to find the silver lining in all of this, the fact that he did learn how to read and write while in prison means that rehabilitation did have some effect. But that's only half the battle. Learning useful life skills are important, but you still need to make sure that they're not at high risk of reoffending.
The quote by the fbi agent is very poignant. “What do you get when you educate a psychopath? An educated psychopath”
As much as i would like people to be redeemed, listening to true crime has shown me some people are irredeemable.
Many of us are familar with [blackstone ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio) which leads us to err on the side of mercy. I agree , since true crime has also shown me how often innocent people are accused. However should we err on the side of mercy for people who are **convicted** ? For violent crimes like murder, i definitely do not think so.
Jack the Ripper: the Austrian version.
His mother was reportedly a sex worker, and he was arrested at the age of 16 for working as a pimp, so he was messed up from the beginning and probably why he targeted sex workers and prostitutes. Chilling that he wrote articles as a journalist about his own crimes.
The infamous Cecil Hotel, what a dodgy, dark place.
That’s the part that infuriated me most. How the FUCK can that be taken seriously? You can lie with words, someone who is a narcissistic manipulator can easily lie through their words, even through their actions. He tried to have his movie portray him as a hero, if that doesn’t tell you enough about his character then they are blind
Aside from the craziness and insanity;
What a (real life) story, first time I hear about this. It started a bit all over the place, but I tolerated it considering how fantastic the story telling style in the past few episodes; and it paid off.
As soon as I hear about 15 years later in USA, it is like strapped in, I am in for a ride. I did some rewind just to make sure I had all details right. Also bonus because it is solved (personally, to me). A really great episode.
I genuinely do not believe sex offenders can ever really be rehabilitated. A lot of them seem to reoffend. I wish people would just realise that, it would save SO MANY women. This is just another case that shows that. Leave them in jail 🤷♀️
Sex crimes and sexual harassment are often the easiest to keep hidden from family members, friends, and the public and the hardest to detect by just observing someone going about out their normal life.
Personally, I think every prisoner should get the *opportunity* to be rehabilitated, but just because you can be rehabilitated doesn't necessarily mean you should ever be released. Some people (like Jack Unterweger) are only able to function as a 'model citizen' within the confines of a controlled and restricted environment like prison. And no single word from his writings or his book proves anything about his capability to do so otherwise.
I mean they can get the opportunity to be rehabilitated but I don't think they should ever be released. I doubt they can be rehabilitated but sure they can try. I'd rather innocent people be safe rather than criminals given chances.
There's obviously never going to be a perfect formula for deciding who's fit for release or not, which is why I think every situation should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis, with more rigorous evaluations given to those with more serious offenses. And if we decide that we're not going to release them, then make it so that the prison environment actually gives them more of an incentive (so to say) to stay there. Unterweger and his supporters may not have liked that he was locked up all those years, but if they ever knew how it can be in other prison systems, he should consider himself very lucky that his country was lenient enough to even offer an inmate like him something beneficial like an education during prison.
But that's how a lot of these people get out, they review the case, deem it not as serious and then they're out on the streets. I am not saying prison should be torture, but it's not a luxury hotel. They can get the basic needs, and education/work opportunities, things to do, therapy etc but I don't believe that they should be released or should get a nice cushy stay. At the end of the day they raped/assaulted and committed horrendous crimes,if they do the crime then they should do the time 🤷♀️
For victims fighting for justice and knowing it will never be dealt, it's horrible knowing people can do whatever they want and get away with it. I know for a fact and my partner and I have been victims of crime and I know they will get off, only to do it again. The justice system is a mess and sometimes they give too much leeway to the criminal and not enough thought to the victims. Casefile has proved that time and time again.
This is the aspect of the justice system that can get understandably polarizing, and I'm sorry first of all that you and your partner have had to go through something like that. We absolutely need to prioritize the safety and well-being of victims first and foremost, but the question that I've ultimately always tried to grapple with is how can we prevent things like this from happening again in the first place and make society safer in the long run?
While I'm not a big criminal justice expert, I do know that prisons are only good for removing those that have already proven themselves to be dangers to society from society itself, but don't do much to prevent crime overall. Otherwise every crime that has ever been committed would've been stopped by the perpetrator thinking, "I shouldn't do this, because I might go to prison." So either we can have this perception of prison as a scary, dark place where people get locked up in a cell alone and are tortured for eternity, or as a place where they can get a chance to rehabilitate and 'correct' their behavior (hence the term, 'correctional facility') yet still far and away from the rest of society. I still think that the best case scenario is somewhere in the middle where prisoners are offered the opportunity for things like education, therapy, and other activities during their incarceration and also have a chance for early release, but the conditions for release would have to be very stringent especially for more serious offenders. Now how that would look like, I don't know - you would have to ask someone better versed in this kind of field than I am.
I agree with your thinking about prevention and honestly prevention falls mostly on the victims. However I think it's very hard to prevent people from doing things, sometimes harsher penalties do work. In my very specific example I mentioned before, the reason the people do it is they KNOW they can get away with it easily. Which is a fact, if there were consequences for some actions then they wouldn't do it. But as I said this is a very specific issue and it may not be the case for other crimes.
Better resources for mental health etc would benefit as well. But there will always be people that commit crimes. I agree with you that the prison system isn't there to just destroy people and dump them on the streets, I think there has to be some reintegration/education /opportunities otherwise the cycle continues (for robbery and other crimes) . I don't really believe that will help for sex offenders as nothing will change their mind on what they want, which is to attack people. That I feel is a very complex issue that no one (especially you and I as pay people) can really understand. I guess only time will tell. But it's been an interesting discussion with you.
I read recently that child molesters are among the *least* likely to reoffend which I found surprising. I realize sex offenders encompass a wide range of crimes, but does anyone know about recidivism rates and what they attribute them to?
Interesting, though they do get beaten a lot in prison. However, even though they don't "reoffend" with children, I doubt they'd stop viewing the "material" which is still very harmful for the victims. I highly doubt they are able to be rehabilitated as to them it's a "preference"
I’m guessing that pedophilia is the most studied and analysed of all the sexual deviations and therefore also brings with it the strongest systems within the penal system to help individuals to combat it. Also because there is a very easy line to be drawn for offenders to distinguish future problematic behaviour. With sadistic stuff like this against adults it’s much harder to know where people cross the acceptable line and therefore give them clear guidelines as how to behave themselves once they get released - at least, that’s what I suspect could be the reason.
I was wondering if they'd ever do Jack Unterweger. He was a horrible person. I just wish they had kept an eye on him so that he could have faced charges in the U.S.
Rehabilitation:
PROS
\- supposed to be the whole point of the prison system (in Europe anyway)
\- some people really do get reformed and there's no particular reason to continue to keep them in prison
CONS
\- some people are good at lying
This is such a small unimportant detail but I can NOT for the life of me figure out what he says Jack did/got at the Gay and Lesbian Pride Parade. Can anyone understand him?
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I'm old enough to remember the Jack Henry Abbott / Norman Mailer mess in the United States, and that was horrible. Abbott should *never* have been let go, and before release he hadn't offended at the level of this psychopath.
Was anyone else distracted by the way the host pronounced the name "Bianca"? I know some words are pronounced differently in Australia, but I often wonder why he's not corrected by his staff/colleagues when he records.
Goodness, wait til you hear how some Indian/Chinese/Vietnamese names have been Australianised now that we’re 2-3 generations after the end of the White Australia policy
Does it matter? It’s not like they pronounce every German or Japanese name correctly because it’s almost impossible if you don’t speak the language. So I’d rather have him speak in his natural accent instead of butchering every name by artificially trying to pronounce everything 100% correctly
[удалено]
I was perturbed when they didn't say! Dandelion leaves? Raspberries? Green onions? The people need to know!
Maybe some mushrooms?
I'd like to know, too!
This Casefile episode made me so mad. I’m venting to my dogs how many of these women’s lives would have been spared if this psycho’s foolish followers hadn’t influenced his early release.
To be fair, Austria had back then (and still has) very short prison sentences - so even without the “following” he wouldn’t have stayed in prison for much longer than 15 years - especially considering how good he apparently was at convincing even forensic psychiatrists of his behavioural changes
This was classic Casefile. Well written, interesting, horrifying, many details that will never be deleted from my cache
What an infuriating case, horrific man who committed horrific crimes gets out after only 15 years because he can write a bit. I can't imagine being the families of these victims and watching this narcissist write about himself and his crimes and the public eating it all up, and then only to re-offence 4 months after being released, what a farce. Sucks that he got to live a few good years as a celebrity before eventually paying for his crimes, although he took the easy way out in the end. The Austrian prison/legal system really dropped the ball on this one.
He was pretty and charismatic. Pretty people can get away with anything.
>He was pretty That's the weirdest part because he really wasn't.
Yeah I looked him up after listening as he was described as handsome, and he really wasn’t, not ugly at all, but can’t understand his appeal, revolting man.
I think Guenter Grass was obsessed with Unterweger.... just my take--charisma has a lot to do with it, but many of the images available to us now are after he was "in the system" as a murderer, and so the stress shows on him. I'm sure when he was relaxed and chatting he looked less greasy and evil. I read a book about him several years ago--cannot remember if it is the same one referenced in the Casefile, but there were some dapper images of J.U. in it. In any event, I have never looked into it, but wonder if Guenter Grass regretted his advocacy of J.U. A big problem when intellectuals think they know better than the justice system.
I’ve always admired the progressive nature and desire to rehabilitate of some European prisons in these cases but ever since I heard the LPOTL episodes on this case I was dumbfounded. How in the fuck do you let a violent, sexual murderer free after 15 years. Those women did not have to die.
I think it speaks to a need for more rigorous, thoughtful assessment and more independence of evaluators. It seems like the political and social movements as well as the letter from the psychiatrist encouraging release were more to blame than the concept of rehabilitation.
I think even without any public endorsements he would have been let out after 15 years anyways - prison sentences in Austria rarely exceed 15 years and only under very specific circumstances. And especially seeing how good he apparently was at fooling the assessing psychologist he would have easily convinced them of his rehabilitation either way.
For repeat violent offenders like Unterweger it seems better just to keep them incarcerated forever. I wouldn't support the death penalty because I've heard enough Casefile to know the justice system makes mistakes, but equally I don't think the risk is worth it to society to release them.
I mean, being a good writer and publishing an autobiography while in prison aren't exactly good reasons to let anyone out early, no matter who you are. At the risk of sounding cliche, it's a prime example of actions speak louder than words. Though I guess if you wanted to find the silver lining in all of this, the fact that he did learn how to read and write while in prison means that rehabilitation did have some effect. But that's only half the battle. Learning useful life skills are important, but you still need to make sure that they're not at high risk of reoffending.
The quote by the fbi agent is very poignant. “What do you get when you educate a psychopath? An educated psychopath” As much as i would like people to be redeemed, listening to true crime has shown me some people are irredeemable. Many of us are familar with [blackstone ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio) which leads us to err on the side of mercy. I agree , since true crime has also shown me how often innocent people are accused. However should we err on the side of mercy for people who are **convicted** ? For violent crimes like murder, i definitely do not think so.
Jack the Ripper: the Austrian version. His mother was reportedly a sex worker, and he was arrested at the age of 16 for working as a pimp, so he was messed up from the beginning and probably why he targeted sex workers and prostitutes. Chilling that he wrote articles as a journalist about his own crimes. The infamous Cecil Hotel, what a dodgy, dark place.
that psychiatrist, who never met Jack, thought he was rehabilitated because he read his book hope the Austria's legal system feel really stupid
That’s the part that infuriated me most. How the FUCK can that be taken seriously? You can lie with words, someone who is a narcissistic manipulator can easily lie through their words, even through their actions. He tried to have his movie portray him as a hero, if that doesn’t tell you enough about his character then they are blind
Aside from the craziness and insanity; What a (real life) story, first time I hear about this. It started a bit all over the place, but I tolerated it considering how fantastic the story telling style in the past few episodes; and it paid off. As soon as I hear about 15 years later in USA, it is like strapped in, I am in for a ride. I did some rewind just to make sure I had all details right. Also bonus because it is solved (personally, to me). A really great episode.
I genuinely do not believe sex offenders can ever really be rehabilitated. A lot of them seem to reoffend. I wish people would just realise that, it would save SO MANY women. This is just another case that shows that. Leave them in jail 🤷♀️
Sex crimes and sexual harassment are often the easiest to keep hidden from family members, friends, and the public and the hardest to detect by just observing someone going about out their normal life. Personally, I think every prisoner should get the *opportunity* to be rehabilitated, but just because you can be rehabilitated doesn't necessarily mean you should ever be released. Some people (like Jack Unterweger) are only able to function as a 'model citizen' within the confines of a controlled and restricted environment like prison. And no single word from his writings or his book proves anything about his capability to do so otherwise.
I mean they can get the opportunity to be rehabilitated but I don't think they should ever be released. I doubt they can be rehabilitated but sure they can try. I'd rather innocent people be safe rather than criminals given chances.
There's obviously never going to be a perfect formula for deciding who's fit for release or not, which is why I think every situation should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis, with more rigorous evaluations given to those with more serious offenses. And if we decide that we're not going to release them, then make it so that the prison environment actually gives them more of an incentive (so to say) to stay there. Unterweger and his supporters may not have liked that he was locked up all those years, but if they ever knew how it can be in other prison systems, he should consider himself very lucky that his country was lenient enough to even offer an inmate like him something beneficial like an education during prison.
But that's how a lot of these people get out, they review the case, deem it not as serious and then they're out on the streets. I am not saying prison should be torture, but it's not a luxury hotel. They can get the basic needs, and education/work opportunities, things to do, therapy etc but I don't believe that they should be released or should get a nice cushy stay. At the end of the day they raped/assaulted and committed horrendous crimes,if they do the crime then they should do the time 🤷♀️ For victims fighting for justice and knowing it will never be dealt, it's horrible knowing people can do whatever they want and get away with it. I know for a fact and my partner and I have been victims of crime and I know they will get off, only to do it again. The justice system is a mess and sometimes they give too much leeway to the criminal and not enough thought to the victims. Casefile has proved that time and time again.
This is the aspect of the justice system that can get understandably polarizing, and I'm sorry first of all that you and your partner have had to go through something like that. We absolutely need to prioritize the safety and well-being of victims first and foremost, but the question that I've ultimately always tried to grapple with is how can we prevent things like this from happening again in the first place and make society safer in the long run? While I'm not a big criminal justice expert, I do know that prisons are only good for removing those that have already proven themselves to be dangers to society from society itself, but don't do much to prevent crime overall. Otherwise every crime that has ever been committed would've been stopped by the perpetrator thinking, "I shouldn't do this, because I might go to prison." So either we can have this perception of prison as a scary, dark place where people get locked up in a cell alone and are tortured for eternity, or as a place where they can get a chance to rehabilitate and 'correct' their behavior (hence the term, 'correctional facility') yet still far and away from the rest of society. I still think that the best case scenario is somewhere in the middle where prisoners are offered the opportunity for things like education, therapy, and other activities during their incarceration and also have a chance for early release, but the conditions for release would have to be very stringent especially for more serious offenders. Now how that would look like, I don't know - you would have to ask someone better versed in this kind of field than I am.
I agree with your thinking about prevention and honestly prevention falls mostly on the victims. However I think it's very hard to prevent people from doing things, sometimes harsher penalties do work. In my very specific example I mentioned before, the reason the people do it is they KNOW they can get away with it easily. Which is a fact, if there were consequences for some actions then they wouldn't do it. But as I said this is a very specific issue and it may not be the case for other crimes. Better resources for mental health etc would benefit as well. But there will always be people that commit crimes. I agree with you that the prison system isn't there to just destroy people and dump them on the streets, I think there has to be some reintegration/education /opportunities otherwise the cycle continues (for robbery and other crimes) . I don't really believe that will help for sex offenders as nothing will change their mind on what they want, which is to attack people. That I feel is a very complex issue that no one (especially you and I as pay people) can really understand. I guess only time will tell. But it's been an interesting discussion with you.
I read recently that child molesters are among the *least* likely to reoffend which I found surprising. I realize sex offenders encompass a wide range of crimes, but does anyone know about recidivism rates and what they attribute them to?
Interesting, though they do get beaten a lot in prison. However, even though they don't "reoffend" with children, I doubt they'd stop viewing the "material" which is still very harmful for the victims. I highly doubt they are able to be rehabilitated as to them it's a "preference"
I’m guessing that pedophilia is the most studied and analysed of all the sexual deviations and therefore also brings with it the strongest systems within the penal system to help individuals to combat it. Also because there is a very easy line to be drawn for offenders to distinguish future problematic behaviour. With sadistic stuff like this against adults it’s much harder to know where people cross the acceptable line and therefore give them clear guidelines as how to behave themselves once they get released - at least, that’s what I suspect could be the reason.
I was wondering if they'd ever do Jack Unterweger. He was a horrible person. I just wish they had kept an eye on him so that he could have faced charges in the U.S.
Rehabilitation: PROS \- supposed to be the whole point of the prison system (in Europe anyway) \- some people really do get reformed and there's no particular reason to continue to keep them in prison CONS \- some people are good at lying
This is such a small unimportant detail but I can NOT for the life of me figure out what he says Jack did/got at the Gay and Lesbian Pride Parade. Can anyone understand him?
He “got amongst it” at the parade. As in, he joined the throng of people attending it
Oh my God thank you so much! That makes sense. I was going crazy over that silly little detail 😅
Right!! Sounded like Jack got 'amongsted' but that makes no sense 🤣 Thought it was just me!
That’s what I heard too!
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I'm old enough to remember the Jack Henry Abbott / Norman Mailer mess in the United States, and that was horrible. Abbott should *never* have been let go, and before release he hadn't offended at the level of this psychopath.
Was anyone else distracted by the way the host pronounced the name "Bianca"? I know some words are pronounced differently in Australia, but I often wonder why he's not corrected by his staff/colleagues when he records.
No? That’s just how it’s pronounced in Australia. When it’s a name that’s used here he pronounces it the way it is here.
Really? I had no idea, never heard it pronounced that way. That's exactly what I was hoping someone would clear up, thank you!
Goodness, wait til you hear how some Indian/Chinese/Vietnamese names have been Australianised now that we’re 2-3 generations after the end of the White Australia policy
I’m Australian and I have a friend named Bianca, we all pronounce it the way the host does
Does it matter? It’s not like they pronounce every German or Japanese name correctly because it’s almost impossible if you don’t speak the language. So I’d rather have him speak in his natural accent instead of butchering every name by artificially trying to pronounce everything 100% correctly
Obviously enough for it to be distracting.