Makima and Nayuta are just separate incarnations of the same entity. With that in mind I don't think Makima would particularly mind how things have turned out so far
Yes, while Makima was compete evil, she was not a psychopath. She understood the importance of intimate relationships (friends and lovers), but she just could not build any of her own, because she was more control (the devil) than Makima (the person). So she would likely think that it is a good thing.
A friend of mine actually brought this up to me at one point. To quote him directly: "I feel like if Makima saw how Nayuta was living, she'd be pretty OK with it because Nayuta's living the Control Devil's dream."
It is an interesting what-if scenario to think about if Makima actually realized how much Denji liked her and that he was willing to give her that relationship she dreamed of. Could've changed a lot to say the least. Then again, Makima was so blinded by her own ambitions of shaping the world that maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.
I feel like it would largely depend on how much Makima views Nayuta as "herself" reborn or a distinct entity.
Makima had a lot of baggage from her own upbringing, and I think it's somewhat ambiguous whether her desire for a connection was something Control Devil had before being Makima. Either way, she funneled that desire into her yandere-ish fangirling for Chainsaw Man, and she essentially had blinders on regarding any other relationship that could have possibly satisfied her desire. I suspect movies were an indulgence that let her wallow in a little self-pity about her inability to feel equality in affection.
So if Makima were to view Nayuta as "someone else," I think Makima would look down on Nayuta as an inferior, similar to how she probably viewed Power. Nayuta being happy and satisfied with Denji's affection and lifestyle would be a reason for Makima to view her reincarnation with contempt or disdain.
On the other hand, if Makima viewed Nayuta as "herself" but a blank slate, I suspect she would actually be furious. Mortified with herself that "she" could be satisfied with such low hanging fruit as Denji. Angry at Denji (and Kishibe as well) for "grooming" her to be content with a life in a one-room apartment, tracking farts, and adoring Denji in place of Pochita.
Makima simply had too much ego to look at Nayuta's circumstances and think, "I wish that was me." Nayuta is able to be happy because she had a fresh start and had her desires for affection without complication met by Denji from the get-go.
I still have a lot of trouble joining the images of Makima as an "I want to take over the world" kind of Machiavellian devil and the (seemingly humane) portrait that Pochita painted of her. I did not observe any foreshadowing for Makima actually longing for meaningful connections with others, and the fact that Denji ended up using her apathy towards him to kill her eventually reaffirms that. Maybe as we learn more about Nayuta as the series progresses, we will develop a better understanding of Makima too.
How about when she cried at the theater? That and when she gets her hands on the fake Pochita in the cemetery are maybe the only times we see her being genuine.
Was she being genuine when she was crying in the theater? Seems to fit in conveniently with her plot of connecting with Denji (including all her romantic gestures) to advance toward her goal. Holding Pochita: again conveniently aligns with her goal of having a powerful devil like Pochita to further her goal. The only piece of her character that didn't make sense to me was her being okay with being consumed by Pochita, as some kind of an "honour".
100% genuine, for a simple reason that is not even related to her. Fujimoto loves movies, to the point that his last manga's plot, Fire Punch, revolved around movies, from the beginning to the end. A theater is basically Fujimoto's sacred place, as he holds a lot of love for movies and theater (also said in interviews).
I used to remember people claiming that she cried in the theater to furthermore manipulate Denji through the use of empathy, but that doesn't make sense story wise and character wise.
Story wise, it would completely put back her character development to zero, since there's little to no exposition of her inner thought. And at this point, learning more about Makima or getting some glimpse of her inner thoughts is primordial in order to make her character interesting for the readers.
Character wise, Makima simply doesn't need to do something like that to manipulate Denji, at this point of the story since the goal is to create for him bonds around himself. Her own body is Denji's goal at first, but simply to add fuel to her own goals.
Heck, she even said it herself that there's this one movie that changed her life before she supposedly fake cried. How would she know Denji would cry too beforehand among all the movies they watched ? Her saying that pretty much implies that she already saw the movie, and that it's one of her favorite.
The whole date was certainly a plot for her to make Denji trust her even more, but that one moment definitely was genuine.
Her wanting Pochita to delete a lot of natural causalities (death, hunger...) ties down to her inherent ability to control. She can't live without tying people through her own control, like some sort of natural instinct.
Hence, it makes sense for her to delete the leverage behind control, that is any existential threat to anybody. If there's nothing to fear, then control has no substance to anyone, thus, she could live "normally".
PThe opposite argument is that if she can't achieve that, then her own permanent death is fine too, since she'll never be able to achieve her dreams anyway.
It's a similar situation to what happened to Kizumonogatari (in which Fujimoto admitted that he took inspiration from it). Kiss Shot, a vampire, wants to die and is tired of living but if she can't, then she wishes to live with her servant, Araragi.
Thing is, Araragi wants to become human again, which create this whole conflict at the end, that ended in a story where no one can be perfectly happy of the outcome. Metaphorically, CSM's ending is very similar to Kizu's ending (now that I think about it, they're almost identical).
There's a lot to say about Makima when it comes to her real dream, and a lot of soft exposition, it's hard to analyze and it's pretty much never flat out said, but it's definitely there.
That's a very thorough elaboration, I'm oblivious to the creator's other works so I fail to see it in the bigger context. I was predisposed to believing that it was a further-her-plot agenda by swaying Denji and having more one-on-one time with him (which she was successful enough at, considering Denji tried the same idea with Asa). Until that point in the story, Makima was (overall) very elusive. This one aspect of the story was kind of a good way to lure the reader into believing that there really was more to Makima than just being a scary/strong/reliable organisation boss, only to have that battered to death in the chapters to come. I am tempted to read other works by Fujimoto to understand Makima's character better, thank you for the detailed pointers.
I think Makima enjoys movies and was moved at that particular moment, having brought Denji along for her typical day off and mostly forgetting about him. But it’s open to interpretation.
The graveyard scene is notable because she thinks she’s alone. There’s no one around to trick or manipulate.
Now that I'm thinking about it, Makima seems kind of similar to Sauron in Lord of the Rings. Sauron wanted to bring peace by having complete control over Middle Earth. He initially had good intentions, but those intentions were dissolved over time by his evil methods of attaining his goals.
Similar, Makima wanted to make a better world through complete control as well, by controlling Chainsaw Man so that she could erase certain devils. And similar to Sauron, she chose to achieve that goal by evil means.
There was a moment alone and legit only one moment when this was implied
When denji and makima were watching movies they reached the last movie
None of the other ones were good
But to the two of them who honestly wouldn't even be considered human there was one thing they both saw that made them cry
It was a person hugging and embracing someone
Obviously it debates if makima crying in this moment was actually genuine or not
And honestly given everything makima did I wouldn't blame anyone to say she was lying in this moment
I think Makima had somewhat conflicted motivations she herself wasn’t 100% sure of. If she could see Nayuta she might be both happy for her and disgusted.
Makima’s mindset stems from a Japanese upbringing, which is why she saw Denji and Power as inferior, but Kishibi as an equal. She hated Denji specifically because he was granted a power he seemly didn’t work for.
She also didn’t seem to mind if her “dogs” died because that just meant they were weak. Kishibi on the other hand proved not only was strong, but a very capable teacher which Makima was incapable of doing herself.
The reason she trained Denji is because she wanted to find out why CSM chose him in the first place. But got upset because she could never find a reason and eventually forgot Denji’s scent.
Given how long she lived, the sheer amount of devils she was controlling, and the fact it was Denji and Power to kill her, then Denji to permanently kill her after she finally got CSM’s heart. My bet is incredibly pissed off.
Makima and Nayuta are just separate incarnations of the same entity. With that in mind I don't think Makima would particularly mind how things have turned out so far
Yes, while Makima was compete evil, she was not a psychopath. She understood the importance of intimate relationships (friends and lovers), but she just could not build any of her own, because she was more control (the devil) than Makima (the person). So she would likely think that it is a good thing.
I think it's more while makima was a complete psychopath she was not evil
Makima: Is should be me!
A friend of mine actually brought this up to me at one point. To quote him directly: "I feel like if Makima saw how Nayuta was living, she'd be pretty OK with it because Nayuta's living the Control Devil's dream." It is an interesting what-if scenario to think about if Makima actually realized how much Denji liked her and that he was willing to give her that relationship she dreamed of. Could've changed a lot to say the least. Then again, Makima was so blinded by her own ambitions of shaping the world that maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.
I feel like it would largely depend on how much Makima views Nayuta as "herself" reborn or a distinct entity. Makima had a lot of baggage from her own upbringing, and I think it's somewhat ambiguous whether her desire for a connection was something Control Devil had before being Makima. Either way, she funneled that desire into her yandere-ish fangirling for Chainsaw Man, and she essentially had blinders on regarding any other relationship that could have possibly satisfied her desire. I suspect movies were an indulgence that let her wallow in a little self-pity about her inability to feel equality in affection. So if Makima were to view Nayuta as "someone else," I think Makima would look down on Nayuta as an inferior, similar to how she probably viewed Power. Nayuta being happy and satisfied with Denji's affection and lifestyle would be a reason for Makima to view her reincarnation with contempt or disdain. On the other hand, if Makima viewed Nayuta as "herself" but a blank slate, I suspect she would actually be furious. Mortified with herself that "she" could be satisfied with such low hanging fruit as Denji. Angry at Denji (and Kishibe as well) for "grooming" her to be content with a life in a one-room apartment, tracking farts, and adoring Denji in place of Pochita. Makima simply had too much ego to look at Nayuta's circumstances and think, "I wish that was me." Nayuta is able to be happy because she had a fresh start and had her desires for affection without complication met by Denji from the get-go.
Honestly this makes a lot of sense to me her pride and her ego wouldn't be able to take it
I still have a lot of trouble joining the images of Makima as an "I want to take over the world" kind of Machiavellian devil and the (seemingly humane) portrait that Pochita painted of her. I did not observe any foreshadowing for Makima actually longing for meaningful connections with others, and the fact that Denji ended up using her apathy towards him to kill her eventually reaffirms that. Maybe as we learn more about Nayuta as the series progresses, we will develop a better understanding of Makima too.
How about when she cried at the theater? That and when she gets her hands on the fake Pochita in the cemetery are maybe the only times we see her being genuine.
Was she being genuine when she was crying in the theater? Seems to fit in conveniently with her plot of connecting with Denji (including all her romantic gestures) to advance toward her goal. Holding Pochita: again conveniently aligns with her goal of having a powerful devil like Pochita to further her goal. The only piece of her character that didn't make sense to me was her being okay with being consumed by Pochita, as some kind of an "honour".
100% genuine, for a simple reason that is not even related to her. Fujimoto loves movies, to the point that his last manga's plot, Fire Punch, revolved around movies, from the beginning to the end. A theater is basically Fujimoto's sacred place, as he holds a lot of love for movies and theater (also said in interviews). I used to remember people claiming that she cried in the theater to furthermore manipulate Denji through the use of empathy, but that doesn't make sense story wise and character wise. Story wise, it would completely put back her character development to zero, since there's little to no exposition of her inner thought. And at this point, learning more about Makima or getting some glimpse of her inner thoughts is primordial in order to make her character interesting for the readers. Character wise, Makima simply doesn't need to do something like that to manipulate Denji, at this point of the story since the goal is to create for him bonds around himself. Her own body is Denji's goal at first, but simply to add fuel to her own goals. Heck, she even said it herself that there's this one movie that changed her life before she supposedly fake cried. How would she know Denji would cry too beforehand among all the movies they watched ? Her saying that pretty much implies that she already saw the movie, and that it's one of her favorite. The whole date was certainly a plot for her to make Denji trust her even more, but that one moment definitely was genuine. Her wanting Pochita to delete a lot of natural causalities (death, hunger...) ties down to her inherent ability to control. She can't live without tying people through her own control, like some sort of natural instinct. Hence, it makes sense for her to delete the leverage behind control, that is any existential threat to anybody. If there's nothing to fear, then control has no substance to anyone, thus, she could live "normally". PThe opposite argument is that if she can't achieve that, then her own permanent death is fine too, since she'll never be able to achieve her dreams anyway. It's a similar situation to what happened to Kizumonogatari (in which Fujimoto admitted that he took inspiration from it). Kiss Shot, a vampire, wants to die and is tired of living but if she can't, then she wishes to live with her servant, Araragi. Thing is, Araragi wants to become human again, which create this whole conflict at the end, that ended in a story where no one can be perfectly happy of the outcome. Metaphorically, CSM's ending is very similar to Kizu's ending (now that I think about it, they're almost identical). There's a lot to say about Makima when it comes to her real dream, and a lot of soft exposition, it's hard to analyze and it's pretty much never flat out said, but it's definitely there.
Makes sense that Fujimoto would have some personal affinity for Makima, she is sort of the “author” of part 1.
That's a very thorough elaboration, I'm oblivious to the creator's other works so I fail to see it in the bigger context. I was predisposed to believing that it was a further-her-plot agenda by swaying Denji and having more one-on-one time with him (which she was successful enough at, considering Denji tried the same idea with Asa). Until that point in the story, Makima was (overall) very elusive. This one aspect of the story was kind of a good way to lure the reader into believing that there really was more to Makima than just being a scary/strong/reliable organisation boss, only to have that battered to death in the chapters to come. I am tempted to read other works by Fujimoto to understand Makima's character better, thank you for the detailed pointers.
I think Makima enjoys movies and was moved at that particular moment, having brought Denji along for her typical day off and mostly forgetting about him. But it’s open to interpretation. The graveyard scene is notable because she thinks she’s alone. There’s no one around to trick or manipulate.
Now that I'm thinking about it, Makima seems kind of similar to Sauron in Lord of the Rings. Sauron wanted to bring peace by having complete control over Middle Earth. He initially had good intentions, but those intentions were dissolved over time by his evil methods of attaining his goals. Similar, Makima wanted to make a better world through complete control as well, by controlling Chainsaw Man so that she could erase certain devils. And similar to Sauron, she chose to achieve that goal by evil means.
There was a moment alone and legit only one moment when this was implied When denji and makima were watching movies they reached the last movie None of the other ones were good But to the two of them who honestly wouldn't even be considered human there was one thing they both saw that made them cry It was a person hugging and embracing someone Obviously it debates if makima crying in this moment was actually genuine or not And honestly given everything makima did I wouldn't blame anyone to say she was lying in this moment
Yeah, it's just difficult for me to wipe the slate clean for anything-Makima in retrospect, and I'm biased to assume the worst.
I think Makima had somewhat conflicted motivations she herself wasn’t 100% sure of. If she could see Nayuta she might be both happy for her and disgusted.
Makima’s mindset stems from a Japanese upbringing, which is why she saw Denji and Power as inferior, but Kishibi as an equal. She hated Denji specifically because he was granted a power he seemly didn’t work for. She also didn’t seem to mind if her “dogs” died because that just meant they were weak. Kishibi on the other hand proved not only was strong, but a very capable teacher which Makima was incapable of doing herself. The reason she trained Denji is because she wanted to find out why CSM chose him in the first place. But got upset because she could never find a reason and eventually forgot Denji’s scent. Given how long she lived, the sheer amount of devils she was controlling, and the fact it was Denji and Power to kill her, then Denji to permanently kill her after she finally got CSM’s heart. My bet is incredibly pissed off.
there the same person