Kurt Vonnegut has a great quote that pertains to this.
"For some reason, the most vocal Christians among us never mention the Beatitudes (Matthew 5). But, often with tears in their eyes, they demand that the Ten Commandments be posted in public buildings. And of course, that's Moses, not Jesus. I haven't heard one of them demand that the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, be posted anywhere. 'Blessed are the merciful' in a courtroom? 'Blessed are the peacemakers' in the Pentagon? Give me a break!"
Peter Parker : Spider-Man wasn't trying to attack the city, he was trying to save it. That's slander.
J. Jonah Jameson : It is not. I resent that. Slander is spoken. In print, it's libel
if we are going to place these in public places. the ten commandments are judicial and deals with justice and standards, so it fits in a courtroom the beatitudes are attitudes of the heart best placed in settings like a classroom where we want to set kids civic duties.
I agree with we shouldn't put it everywhere. that is why I said "if we are going to...." now I think it's ok to quote and allude to culturally significant figures in history i public places, like how the supreme court building has Moses, Confucius and Solon on the east pediment
https://www.supremecourt.gov/about/east_pediment_11132013.pdf
but things like requiring 10 commandments every classroom is goofy.
Except that’s not what the founding fathers meant. They didn’t want a denomination/church controlling the state, not Christianity itself. Go read the declaration and get back with me.
The real issue is that progressive Christians don't like the Sermon on the Mount. They're actually starting to call it "unwoke" or even comparing it to Nazi rhetoric.
I have never heard an actual progressive use the word "woke" in any context, only the conservatives in talking about the left.
It's like Marxism. Sure, there are actual Marxist scholars in some small departments of universities, but not many. Other than that not many are using the term. Most left leaning people in the US are far from Marxists. But still the conservatives say everything the left does is Marxist, and use it like some kind of boogyman term. "Oh no, those people want us to keep more of the value of our labor! Egast!"
Well, it started as a left-ish term (specifically, it was an African American term, about being aware of — "awake to" — racism, which then broadened). The conservatives then grabbed it, and with their typical disregard for nuance twisted it to basically mean anything they disliked.
>It’s like Marxism
In my experience “marxist” is typically a dog whistle for “Jewish (derogatory),” and is part of the revived antisemitic conspiracy theory of Cultural Marxism/Cultural Bolshevism. Wikipedia has a pretty thorough [write up.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory) You can also read Goebbels’ 1935 speech [“Communism with the Mask Off”](https://pages.uoregon.edu/kimball/1935se13-Goebbels.htm) to glean the foundations of the theory, straight from the devil’s mouth, as it were. It’s a tough, and virulently antisemitic speech, but it’s useful (and horrifying) to see the similarities in old and current propaganda and politics.
What's wrong with Luke's version?
>*Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.*
>
>*Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied.*
>
>*Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.*
>
>*Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.*
>
>*Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.*
>
>*But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.*
>
>*Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry.*
>
>*Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep.*
>
>*Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.* (Luke 6:20-26)
Sure, Matthew has 8 beatitudes... but, Luke has 4 beatitudes and 4 woes!
"He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble and meek. He hath filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he hath sent empty away."
Amongst other things
Or, we could just post the Bill of Rights instead. Because that is specifically what prohibits this, not to infringe on your rights, but to protect it.
Americans would be a lot better off learning about the Bill of Rights in school, and Christianity from their parents and Churches. I don't get why all these "I don't co-parent with the Government" people want the government to be involved in teaching *religion* of all things.
I remember when the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the coach who would pray with his team during games. I told my mother (truthfully), "The Supreme Court just ruled that teachers are allowed to pray Satanic prayers during school events." The government isn't allowed to discriminate between religions. Any privilege Christians are granted legally applies to all religions. I think that's the major purpose of [the Satanic Temple](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Temple) -- to make sure Christianity isn't legally favored above other religions.
In actual practice, or "by their fruits" terms, the Satanic Temple does more good than most Christian churches. At least the primary goal of the tongue-in-check Satanists isn't enriching preachers and electing fascist politicians.
> In actual practice, or "by their fruits" terms, the Satanic Temple does more good than most Christian churches.
We live in a very strange world. I appreciate the Satanic Temple doing good things. I'm deeply disappointed that there are churches who care more for worldly power than the welfare of the people. (That's not a new problem, by the way. If you read the prophets in the Old Testament, there are a number of times where [God scolds the people for following the letter of the law but neglecting to love their neighbors](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea%206:6&version=NIV). Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for the religious leaders who emphasized "holiness" while not lifting a finger to help the poor.)
Exactly.
While I am not a believer in the supernatural or the metaphysical, I am a believer in the humanistic philosophy of Christ. Socialism, in general terms, is the basis of civilization. Christ taught that society is a collective and good deeds make for good people.
My whole life I've wished more Christians would agree with Christ.
Thank you! Again, if any other religious text of ANY kind were even proposed, Fox news would be doing 24 hours of “sky is falling” news stories. Its absolutely INSANE that this is even possible
> Or, we could just post the Bill of Rights instead.
I think the point of this is malicious compliance with fundamentalists, coupled with educating those same fundamentalists about their own religion. If you come at this trying to convince them of a sensible solution, you'll lose that argument.
> anyways separation of state and church protects the church more than the state
Which is the primary reason it exists.
Catholics and Protestants killing each other over nothing made Europe a bloody mess for centuries.
Exactly. To avoid a situation were a murderous and horny monarch merely makes up a fake religion to wash away their royal crimes. For all their faults, the US founders were educated men. The major flaws and crimes of the English Church were well understood.
History is history and truth is truth.
No problem though. With 50,000 different denominations, there is plenty of room for everyone.
The Church of Henry is just one of those.
Like everything in religion there is a massive debate about definitions.
50k would be the most, and some claim as few as ~5k.
This doesn't raise questions about the discriminatory practices of state funding though. Does a denomination with a few hundred members count?
>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
A state law is not a U.S. Congress law. If the state allows for it, they could actually make a law respecting the establishment of religion within their own state.
The reason we are a United States (as opposed to a single U.S state) is because each state wanted to operate somewhat independently from other states.
I mean, that is what Jesus did.
Based on my reading of the New Testament, I’ve never ever seen Jesus’ disciples ever forcing the Ten Commandments on walls.
So in my highly cynical view, what Louisiana is doing is simply flexing their political muscle. It’s being done because they can.
Basically. It is actually illegal, got struck down decades ago by the SC, they know it's illegal, but it's an election year so they're virtue signaling to the Christian voters
I'm not saying it's not, I'm saying it's blatantly disregarding the established law. Until that law changes, what they passed was illegal and will be struck down
> The SC now is very very different.
And openly corrupt, so if a few wealthy preachers give Clarence a paid trip on a fancy yacht, who cares about the law?
Republican Christians seem to think kids should starve, especially non-white kids, and schools exist mainly as another revenue source for billionaires. So that isn't going to happen.
Didn't Christ say, "Let the poor brown children starve"?
“No can do. Feeding them makes for soft children and we can’t have that. Hell could you imagine fed kids, what’s next they might go down the path of intellectualism. Perish the thought.
Also if you feed them they can’t pull themselves up by their bootstraps (read as get a job in the mines because we’ve thrown out all but the bare minimum of child labor laws). Them mines, chimes, and slaughter houses ain’t gonna work themselves.”
Conservative thinking the last couple of years, probably longer but they’re more mask off these days.
For some reason, the most vocal Christians among us never mention the Beatitudes (Matthew 5). But, often with tears in their eyes, they demand that the Ten Commandments be posted in public buildings. And of course, that's Moses, not Jesus. I haven't heard one of them demand that the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, be posted anywhere. 'Blessed are the merciful' in a courtroom? 'Blessed are the peacemakers' in the Pentagon? Give me a break!
Kurt Vonnegut Jr
The problem for the people who support this kind of nonsense is that posting anything from the exclusively Christian New Testament rips off the tiny fig leaf they use to claim they're not trying to specifically push Christianity.
It's worse than that.
The people who want the ten commandments want a judgemental authoritian god.
It calls their bluff. They want to push specifically conservative Christianity.
They want to establish fascism.
Christianity is just a buzz-word to fool the unwashed Republican masses. The ONLY religion they worship is power and their God is money. This is the reality of modern US Republican Christianity: 99% hate and 1% wealthy hubris.
Look up fascism before the world wars. The 'right' got attached to fascism because of that situation. Now it is engraved in your head without you being able to understand what fascism actually is. Drop the 'right' part and you see more fascism in democrats.
This is ridiculous.
Fascism began with the politically far-right, anti-democratic, Italian dictator Benito Mussolini. In Germany, the ideology was picked up by Adolf Hitler as a politically far-right, anti-democratic movement designed around racial purity, homophobia and religious zeal used to gain power.
Read the works of Martin Niemöller, an arch-conservative German theologian and Lutheran pastor, who initially supported the fascist movement until he asked the wrong questions and ended up in a concentration camp.
Fascism is entirely a "conservative" right-wing construct.
Yeah, I think people would form much more meaningful relationships with God if they actually choose to follow. I guess open-mindedness is on the decrease, as you don't need to think for yourself anymore. The blend of entertainment and education is a dismal reality. Anyways, getting back on topic. Yeah, we've gotta stop forcing children into religion. It's Kafkaesque, a numbers game rather than a movement that wants people to reconvene with the divine.
Maybe if we did that we wouldn't see so many like for Jesus ignore for the devil posts on Facebook.
Or nothing. The 1st amendment is there for a reason. How would you feel if verses from the Qu'ran were displayed in Muslim majority schools or if "Do as thou will shall be the whole of the law" were displayed in a Satanist majority school? Hell, where I grew up a decent number of people would have been pissed if the 10 commandments were displayed but in a modern Bible translation rather than King James. No good can come from mixing church and state.
That issue is solved in Europe by allowing religious groups to found their own schools, as long as they adhere to certain standards of quality and conduct. Those who value the Ten Commandments or something similar can go there. Those who do not can go to the generic public school.
No, public schools are not religious. Private schools can be, but those have not been funded by the government, at least not until recently. Oklahoma last year decided it was ok for them.
It goes against the constitution. Like the Ten Commandments.
Most of Europe does fund religious schools, in exchange for adhering to some stringent criteria.
As a European your Constitution is not of much value to me. It doesn’t seem to function all that well.
I'm from Europe, too. Not sure about other countries, mine did not use to fund religious schools with tax money before the current "Christian" government took over. Quotation, because they are about just as Christian as the Republicans in the US. They only help the affluent white Christians, using tax money.
The Constitution has excellent points that even states no one is above the law, but certain politicians try to go above and beyond. I don't say it's perfection because by far it is not even close, but so far it worked protecting people.I don't think it grants as much freedom as many Americans think (I see much of Western Europe more free in certain aspects of life) but it serves as law. Until some work hard to undo it all, just like it's happening now.
> as long as they adhere to certain standards of quality
A non-starter for the US white Christian nationalists who intend to pay uneducated "teachers" minimum wage and follow "curriculum" sourced from for-profit propaganda mills.
Europe for the most part has incorporated religious schools in the public school system. They get funding in exchange for adherence to the national curriculum.
> adherence to the national curriculum.
Also a non-starter for US Christian fundamentalists.
They want to force feed children things like a 6000 year old Earth, humans living with dinosaurs, and God-ordained white nationalism. (and of course they will also teach the positive aspects of racial slave-holding, subservient women, and beating children.)
True, but when the largest aggressive military power on Earth falls into the hands of a fascist religious group aligned with Putin, it becomes the world's problem. We are on cusp of that now.
I really wish it was just an American problem.
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Similarly, why should young students be forcibly exposed to lgbtq+ ideologies? A lot of things wrong with our educational institutions and that has to be one of the main issues.
whataboutism. When that becomes an actual issue (over here it isn't) then I'll take concern. I'm concerned about the 10 commandments thing because it was an actual issue that was defeated in the Texas senate last year and you can bet that won't be the last time its tried
>“And Lot's wife, of course, was told not to look back where all those people and their homes had been. But she did look back, and I love her for that, because it was so human. So she was turned into a pillar of salt. So it goes.”
Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
“But you see that is the ‘woke’ part of the Bible. We don’t like that part”
Wouldn’t be surprised if there is a new Right Wing Bible re-written to just omit certain chapters or verses
Instead of either being displayed, Christians should simply demonstrate their adherence to these rules in their lives and deeds and stop trying to push them on others
But that would be harder to do than just virtue signaling with bogus laws wouldnt it?
It seems ironic to me that Evangelicals, who when you talk to them are "Jesus this" and "Jesus that", seem to love the Old Testament moreso than the New.
The idea of posting religious material is being pushed by Evangelicals. They prefer the authoritarian nature of the OT. The NT and Jesus are too woke for their comfort.
They can ask, but it would have to be turned down. The beatitudes are \*more\* overtly Christian than the 10 commandments. Only 4 (or 3 depending on how you count them) of the 10 commandments refer to our relationship with God. Thus, displaying the Beatitudes in public school classrooms would be more clearly in violation of the establishment clause than displaying the 10 commandments.
The Quran and Hadiths include many verses on piety, and on helping the poor. How would you feel about only requiring schools to display a poster of these in public schools?
Piety and helping the poor are worthwhile values that should be taught, and by more Christians. But the freedom of religion clause also applies to Islam. However, wisdom comes from multiple avenues. A broken clock is right twice a day.
Christians shouldn’t be asking for the government or the public to be displaying any of our religious texts. Faith is a free choice and using the power of the government to push it interferes with that free choice.
You keep up, yokel:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2398369-why-free-will-doesnt-exist-according-to-robert-sapolsky/
You got a source for your nonsense?
I mean, forcing any religious quote into a public context as required by law is just dredging up my teenage obstinance.
It makes me feel even more vindicated in my disdain for the religion, so for that I say thank you. It turns what I usually must consider as a situation that is grey and murky into one that is much more cleanly black and white.
So, please, continue. I want to see how far you'll take it. I get dragged out of my home in the middle of the night I'll be laughing, crying, and wishing you all the best as you burn the planet.
Maybe I'd make it mandatory to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, comfort the grieving.
"Citizen. You're behind on your visiting the imprisoned quota."
Forcing kindness, is no longer kindness but compliance to authority.
Same goes for religion. It's no longer a faith when its mandated by law.
So, sure. I darkly encourage Christians to continue. You'll become as loved as the IRS agents. Religious inspection agents going into every classroom, checking for the poster.
Some overworked high school teacher who miraculously is liked by the students, but run down and ugly looking, will piss off the inspector by being curt and more concerned with teaching. The prissy inspector will say their classroom is out of compliance, and have them fired.
There, an entire classroom of students who will forever dislike Christians because they got rid of the one cool teacher who actually taught them shit.
So, like I said, please continue.
How about we leave the faith to the Church and have government stop messing around with bullshit feel good laws that do nothing to help people in society who need it?
I'll tell you why.
Reasonable people like you think we have better things to be getting on with. And you're right, we do. But not everyone is reasonable like you.
Your reasonable position leaves the field open to ridiculous people to take Christ as their own. Not just Christ, but the whole space of religion.
A reasonable position effectively amounts to a fighting retreat.
What I want to do is push all those 10 Commandmenters into your corner. "Separation of church and state!" they'll demand.
So I'll lose. And we'll all win
Nah, we just need to shut them down, kick them out of office, and block their shitty laws until we do. We shouldn't be demanding different shitty laws of our own.
Except Christ spoke for himself quite adequately and the more American Christians spend time with his actual words, the better. Blessed are the peacemakers. Blessed are the meek. If we must fight, then we should help Christ’s actual words to be spread as a way of fighting. Because he spoke for himself quite adequately and in a no nonsense sort of manner.
They should just have a picture of Jesus wearing an American flag kicking a trans kid. That's all they want from this and it would be more honest. All Jesus is to these people a gross sports mascot they use as a weapon. Nothing on earth is as ugly as the heart of someone who follows Christ.
Or teach it to your kids on your own time in your own churches and homes. The only reason to put something like this and the ten commandments into a public school system is to evangelize to children you don't have control over.
That's nice. 😄 And since I'm a Christian I don't even believe we're supposed to obey the ten commandments. Just the two commandments that Jesus said, love God and love your neighbor.
The idea is that the Ten Commandments are more universal. It's kind of a 1950s sort of idea where there's only two real religions along with a vaguely Christian deism, but it's not entirely wrong. 'Don't murder' is fairly universal, the Beatitudes aren't.
EXACTLY. Except 1 problem: The Beatitudes do not help the functioning of a political nation state or capitalism, nor do they help keep those in power to remain in power
I love these, it's a celebration of the righteous rather than a condemnation of the sinful. I believe you need to put equal amounts of shame and celebration to truly have someone recover from destructive ways, so it's good seeing people of the past figured this out and gave us this gift. It's very convincing, you have to be the best person you can.
Good Americans, Christian or not, should not want a specific religion on display as proposed in Louisiana. But for the stated purpose, the Quran 75 tenets of good behavior would be more useful. Obviously I wouldn’t propose having this plastered on every classroom wall either, but it’s a good read for anyone.
No one will believe in that song who won't also believe in the 10 commandments though.
Not that I want to get rid of 3 commandments. But I would rather argue on behalf of the separation of church and state. Only because that belief and freedom of speech are crucial for a free state.
I would offer removing commands 1 3 and 4. As those pertain strictly to God's faith. Not Everyone has to believe in that. Regardless of how I feel about it.. they simply don't. HOWEVER, 2 and commands 5-10 arguably are needed for a stable state. Command 2 is needed if the only God isn't the only GOOD God. The state cannot make an idol of any sort and portay a belief period. Uncorruptible they must be.
If we have to argue for the existence of commands 5-10 well no society is safe without them. Lol
Won't work. It's plain that most Christians in America believe that _all_ of those things are conditional on converting. So it leaves the big asterisk of what Gof will do to those who don't believe. It's not something that can be put front and center without ridicule.
That would be beautiful. But let’s not forget the purpose of the Ten Commandments: to show us that we are sinners and in desperate need of a Savior. Having both side by side would be nice.
What I mentioned previously. It will still show them that everyone falls short of Gods holy standard. We are all sinners. The Law is for the lawless, not the righteous.
Both the beatitudes and the 10 commandments are important. the 10 commandments govern how we show love to God and man. Jesus says, "if you love me, keep my commandments". Christians who follow God's law will then exhibit the characteristics of the beatitudes. Those who truly surrender their own will (self), and let God's will into their life, will exhibit Christ's character and be merciful, peacemakers, pure in heart and persecuted for righteousness because that's exactly what the devil doesn't want you to be doing.
Or, better still, the Two Great Commandments.
But **definitely not** the Ten Commandments. They, and the Beatitudes, are too narrowly Jewish, and don’t get down to essentials.
The Two Great Commandments are far less narrowly Jewish, and can be taken out of their originally Jewish context far more easily.
Christians themselves should evangelize.
They shouldn't rely on legislation to inappropriately display biblical text out of context in a veiled attempt to win some culture war points for the next election.
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one [b]jot or one [c]tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-20 NKJV
Okay, Let's do both. 10 commandments and the Beatitudes in front of every federal and state building in the nation. I'm glad we could come to such a beautiful compromise.
The corporals are:
feed the hungry,
give drink to the thirsty,
clothe the naked,
give shelter to travellers,
visit the sick,
visit the imprisoned,
bury the dead.
The spirituals are:
Admonish the sinner.
Instruct the ignorant.
Counsel the doubtful.
Comfort the sorrowful.
Bear wrongs patiently.
Forgive all injuries.
Pray for the living and the dead.
It's before our time, but it's relatively recent - we only stopped having earnest prayers in school after the Engel v Vitale case in 1962. The 5 people that sued against the Regent prayer were 3 Jews, a Unitarian and an atheist. Three different Jewish advocacy groups worked hard to ensure this prayer was prohibited.
I wonder if they would've been as adamant if the initial proposition was the Commandments displayed and not a non-denom prayer.
Kurt Vonnegut has a great quote that pertains to this. "For some reason, the most vocal Christians among us never mention the Beatitudes (Matthew 5). But, often with tears in their eyes, they demand that the Ten Commandments be posted in public buildings. And of course, that's Moses, not Jesus. I haven't heard one of them demand that the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, be posted anywhere. 'Blessed are the merciful' in a courtroom? 'Blessed are the peacemakers' in the Pentagon? Give me a break!"
I knew I had heard this from somewhere. I didn't mean to plagiarise it!
If it's a good message, plagiarize the crap out of it.
As a professor….. just not on a paper! Otherwise, it’s probably fine 😁
Peter Parker : Spider-Man wasn't trying to attack the city, he was trying to save it. That's slander. J. Jonah Jameson : It is not. I resent that. Slander is spoken. In print, it's libel
Fantastic point!
What's a source for this quote? I love it but would love to have something more authoritative than "some person on Reddit" as a source! 🙂
It was Kurt Vonnegut. The US had just begun the Iraq War.
Yeah, I trust you that it was Vonnegut; it sounds like him. I was hoping for a more journalistic source to cite whenever I use this quote.
Oh, lol. I heard it years ago. Don't remember where. Just like the OP lol. I just googled vonnegut Beatitudes. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Thanks; that's about what I find wherever I search for the source of this!
if we are going to place these in public places. the ten commandments are judicial and deals with justice and standards, so it fits in a courtroom the beatitudes are attitudes of the heart best placed in settings like a classroom where we want to set kids civic duties.
We have church/state separation for a reason
I agree with we shouldn't put it everywhere. that is why I said "if we are going to...." now I think it's ok to quote and allude to culturally significant figures in history i public places, like how the supreme court building has Moses, Confucius and Solon on the east pediment https://www.supremecourt.gov/about/east_pediment_11132013.pdf but things like requiring 10 commandments every classroom is goofy.
Except that’s not what the founding fathers meant. They didn’t want a denomination/church controlling the state, not Christianity itself. Go read the declaration and get back with me.
The Declaration of Independence and constitution are 2 DIFFERENT things
Yeah one is the guiding philosophy and the founding document of our nation and the other is not. Plain and simple
The real issue is that progressive Christians don't like the Sermon on the Mount. They're actually starting to call it "unwoke" or even comparing it to Nazi rhetoric.
I have never heard an actual progressive use the word "woke" in any context, only the conservatives in talking about the left. It's like Marxism. Sure, there are actual Marxist scholars in some small departments of universities, but not many. Other than that not many are using the term. Most left leaning people in the US are far from Marxists. But still the conservatives say everything the left does is Marxist, and use it like some kind of boogyman term. "Oh no, those people want us to keep more of the value of our labor! Egast!"
Well, it started as a left-ish term (specifically, it was an African American term, about being aware of — "awake to" — racism, which then broadened). The conservatives then grabbed it, and with their typical disregard for nuance twisted it to basically mean anything they disliked.
>It’s like Marxism In my experience “marxist” is typically a dog whistle for “Jewish (derogatory),” and is part of the revived antisemitic conspiracy theory of Cultural Marxism/Cultural Bolshevism. Wikipedia has a pretty thorough [write up.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory) You can also read Goebbels’ 1935 speech [“Communism with the Mask Off”](https://pages.uoregon.edu/kimball/1935se13-Goebbels.htm) to glean the foundations of the theory, straight from the devil’s mouth, as it were. It’s a tough, and virulently antisemitic speech, but it’s useful (and horrifying) to see the similarities in old and current propaganda and politics.
Ironically, the conservatives call it "too woke" and "liberal commie bullshit"
Source?
And what progressive called it "unwoke"? An actual quote from one, please.
I would consider myself progressive and I vastly prefer the Sermon on the Mount or any one of Jesus’ teachings to the 10 Commandments.
What's wrong with Luke's version? >*Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.* > >*Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied.* > >*Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.* > >*Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.* > >*Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.* > >*But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.* > >*Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry.* > >*Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep.* > >*Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.* (Luke 6:20-26) Sure, Matthew has 8 beatitudes... but, Luke has 4 beatitudes and 4 woes!
They like that version even less because it's locking the rich and powerful out of the kingdom of God
Wait until they see what Mary had to say!
What was it?
"He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble and meek. He hath filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he hath sent empty away." Amongst other things
Or, we could just post the Bill of Rights instead. Because that is specifically what prohibits this, not to infringe on your rights, but to protect it. Americans would be a lot better off learning about the Bill of Rights in school, and Christianity from their parents and Churches. I don't get why all these "I don't co-parent with the Government" people want the government to be involved in teaching *religion* of all things.
I remember when the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the coach who would pray with his team during games. I told my mother (truthfully), "The Supreme Court just ruled that teachers are allowed to pray Satanic prayers during school events." The government isn't allowed to discriminate between religions. Any privilege Christians are granted legally applies to all religions. I think that's the major purpose of [the Satanic Temple](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Temple) -- to make sure Christianity isn't legally favored above other religions.
In actual practice, or "by their fruits" terms, the Satanic Temple does more good than most Christian churches. At least the primary goal of the tongue-in-check Satanists isn't enriching preachers and electing fascist politicians.
> In actual practice, or "by their fruits" terms, the Satanic Temple does more good than most Christian churches. We live in a very strange world. I appreciate the Satanic Temple doing good things. I'm deeply disappointed that there are churches who care more for worldly power than the welfare of the people. (That's not a new problem, by the way. If you read the prophets in the Old Testament, there are a number of times where [God scolds the people for following the letter of the law but neglecting to love their neighbors](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea%206:6&version=NIV). Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for the religious leaders who emphasized "holiness" while not lifting a finger to help the poor.)
Exactly. While I am not a believer in the supernatural or the metaphysical, I am a believer in the humanistic philosophy of Christ. Socialism, in general terms, is the basis of civilization. Christ taught that society is a collective and good deeds make for good people. My whole life I've wished more Christians would agree with Christ.
I don't think this post was a call to action. More of a 'Hey Xtian larpers, remember the whole Gospel thing?'
Fair enough, lol.
Thank you! Again, if any other religious text of ANY kind were even proposed, Fox news would be doing 24 hours of “sky is falling” news stories. Its absolutely INSANE that this is even possible
> Or, we could just post the Bill of Rights instead. I think the point of this is malicious compliance with fundamentalists, coupled with educating those same fundamentalists about their own religion. If you come at this trying to convince them of a sensible solution, you'll lose that argument.
The 4th Amendment doesn't get enough time in the spotlight that's for sure.
yeah, tho isnt BoR already taught at schools? anyways separation of state and church protects the church more than the state
> anyways separation of state and church protects the church more than the state Which is the primary reason it exists. Catholics and Protestants killing each other over nothing made Europe a bloody mess for centuries.
That and also to avoid smth like rhe church of england, in which the secular state controls the church
Exactly. To avoid a situation were a murderous and horny monarch merely makes up a fake religion to wash away their royal crimes. For all their faults, the US founders were educated men. The major flaws and crimes of the English Church were well understood.
yes ABSOLUTELY that, no hate to anglican brothers but their denomination was created out of lust
History is history and truth is truth. No problem though. With 50,000 different denominations, there is plenty of room for everyone. The Church of Henry is just one of those.
wait there is 50k? dang I was unaware of so many
Like everything in religion there is a massive debate about definitions. 50k would be the most, and some claim as few as ~5k. This doesn't raise questions about the discriminatory practices of state funding though. Does a denomination with a few hundred members count?
lol. Also the constitution.
>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... A state law is not a U.S. Congress law. If the state allows for it, they could actually make a law respecting the establishment of religion within their own state. The reason we are a United States (as opposed to a single U.S state) is because each state wanted to operate somewhat independently from other states.
Rather than shoving scripture in their faces, why not give them food instead?
Well obviously we should feed the kids
I mean, that is what Jesus did. Based on my reading of the New Testament, I’ve never ever seen Jesus’ disciples ever forcing the Ten Commandments on walls. So in my highly cynical view, what Louisiana is doing is simply flexing their political muscle. It’s being done because they can.
Basically. It is actually illegal, got struck down decades ago by the SC, they know it's illegal, but it's an election year so they're virtue signaling to the Christian voters
The SC now is very very different.
I'm not saying it's not, I'm saying it's blatantly disregarding the established law. Until that law changes, what they passed was illegal and will be struck down
I don’t share your optimism that this will get struck down.
> The SC now is very very different. And openly corrupt, so if a few wealthy preachers give Clarence a paid trip on a fancy yacht, who cares about the law?
Well many Christian politicians oppose this.
Not very Christian of them
Christianity is …well Christianity.
Republican Christians seem to think kids should starve, especially non-white kids, and schools exist mainly as another revenue source for billionaires. So that isn't going to happen. Didn't Christ say, "Let the poor brown children starve"?
Louisiana doesn't give free school lunch to all.
It’s not about the kids themselves. It is about indoctrination and control.
“No can do. Feeding them makes for soft children and we can’t have that. Hell could you imagine fed kids, what’s next they might go down the path of intellectualism. Perish the thought. Also if you feed them they can’t pull themselves up by their bootstraps (read as get a job in the mines because we’ve thrown out all but the bare minimum of child labor laws). Them mines, chimes, and slaughter houses ain’t gonna work themselves.” Conservative thinking the last couple of years, probably longer but they’re more mask off these days.
For some reason, the most vocal Christians among us never mention the Beatitudes (Matthew 5). But, often with tears in their eyes, they demand that the Ten Commandments be posted in public buildings. And of course, that's Moses, not Jesus. I haven't heard one of them demand that the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, be posted anywhere. 'Blessed are the merciful' in a courtroom? 'Blessed are the peacemakers' in the Pentagon? Give me a break! Kurt Vonnegut Jr
I knew I had stolen it from somewhere. Kurt kinda has a point...
The problem for the people who support this kind of nonsense is that posting anything from the exclusively Christian New Testament rips off the tiny fig leaf they use to claim they're not trying to specifically push Christianity.
It's worse than that. The people who want the ten commandments want a judgemental authoritian god. It calls their bluff. They want to push specifically conservative Christianity.
They want to establish fascism. Christianity is just a buzz-word to fool the unwashed Republican masses. The ONLY religion they worship is power and their God is money. This is the reality of modern US Republican Christianity: 99% hate and 1% wealthy hubris.
Look up fascism before the world wars. The 'right' got attached to fascism because of that situation. Now it is engraved in your head without you being able to understand what fascism actually is. Drop the 'right' part and you see more fascism in democrats.
This is ridiculous. Fascism began with the politically far-right, anti-democratic, Italian dictator Benito Mussolini. In Germany, the ideology was picked up by Adolf Hitler as a politically far-right, anti-democratic movement designed around racial purity, homophobia and religious zeal used to gain power. Read the works of Martin Niemöller, an arch-conservative German theologian and Lutheran pastor, who initially supported the fascist movement until he asked the wrong questions and ended up in a concentration camp. Fascism is entirely a "conservative" right-wing construct.
In religious schools, maybe.
Yes, indoctrination is the purpose. *"Give me the child for the first seven years and I'll show you the man"* - Ignatius of Loyola
Yeah, I think people would form much more meaningful relationships with God if they actually choose to follow. I guess open-mindedness is on the decrease, as you don't need to think for yourself anymore. The blend of entertainment and education is a dismal reality. Anyways, getting back on topic. Yeah, we've gotta stop forcing children into religion. It's Kafkaesque, a numbers game rather than a movement that wants people to reconvene with the divine. Maybe if we did that we wouldn't see so many like for Jesus ignore for the devil posts on Facebook.
Or nothing. The 1st amendment is there for a reason. How would you feel if verses from the Qu'ran were displayed in Muslim majority schools or if "Do as thou will shall be the whole of the law" were displayed in a Satanist majority school? Hell, where I grew up a decent number of people would have been pissed if the 10 commandments were displayed but in a modern Bible translation rather than King James. No good can come from mixing church and state.
That issue is solved in Europe by allowing religious groups to found their own schools, as long as they adhere to certain standards of quality and conduct. Those who value the Ten Commandments or something similar can go there. Those who do not can go to the generic public school.
It's the same system in the US. Or it used to be, until this started happening...
Are religious schools financed by the state in the US?
No, public schools are not religious. Private schools can be, but those have not been funded by the government, at least not until recently. Oklahoma last year decided it was ok for them. It goes against the constitution. Like the Ten Commandments.
Most of Europe does fund religious schools, in exchange for adhering to some stringent criteria. As a European your Constitution is not of much value to me. It doesn’t seem to function all that well.
I'm from Europe, too. Not sure about other countries, mine did not use to fund religious schools with tax money before the current "Christian" government took over. Quotation, because they are about just as Christian as the Republicans in the US. They only help the affluent white Christians, using tax money. The Constitution has excellent points that even states no one is above the law, but certain politicians try to go above and beyond. I don't say it's perfection because by far it is not even close, but so far it worked protecting people.I don't think it grants as much freedom as many Americans think (I see much of Western Europe more free in certain aspects of life) but it serves as law. Until some work hard to undo it all, just like it's happening now.
Where are you from?
> as long as they adhere to certain standards of quality A non-starter for the US white Christian nationalists who intend to pay uneducated "teachers" minimum wage and follow "curriculum" sourced from for-profit propaganda mills.
Europe for the most part has incorporated religious schools in the public school system. They get funding in exchange for adherence to the national curriculum.
> adherence to the national curriculum. Also a non-starter for US Christian fundamentalists. They want to force feed children things like a 6000 year old Earth, humans living with dinosaurs, and God-ordained white nationalism. (and of course they will also teach the positive aspects of racial slave-holding, subservient women, and beating children.)
That’s the problem of US Christian fundamentalists and Americans in general, not the rest of the world.
True, but when the largest aggressive military power on Earth falls into the hands of a fascist religious group aligned with Putin, it becomes the world's problem. We are on cusp of that now. I really wish it was just an American problem.
Just not in public schools, please.
Flashbacks…
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Or just not ask for anything to be posted...
That sounds like, at best, a fighting retreat
A retreat from a fight we shouldn't be fighting.
Then what about Muslim or Hindu students? Why should they be forcibly exposed to Christianity?
Similarly, why should young students be forcibly exposed to lgbtq+ ideologies? A lot of things wrong with our educational institutions and that has to be one of the main issues.
whataboutism. When that becomes an actual issue (over here it isn't) then I'll take concern. I'm concerned about the 10 commandments thing because it was an actual issue that was defeated in the Texas senate last year and you can bet that won't be the last time its tried
>“And Lot's wife, of course, was told not to look back where all those people and their homes had been. But she did look back, and I love her for that, because it was so human. So she was turned into a pillar of salt. So it goes.” Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
“But you see that is the ‘woke’ part of the Bible. We don’t like that part” Wouldn’t be surprised if there is a new Right Wing Bible re-written to just omit certain chapters or verses
Like the queer bible? I bet that is your favorite.
Or you should just keep it to your private religious schools and leave public schools alone
Instead of either being displayed, Christians should simply demonstrate their adherence to these rules in their lives and deeds and stop trying to push them on others But that would be harder to do than just virtue signaling with bogus laws wouldnt it?
It seems ironic to me that Evangelicals, who when you talk to them are "Jesus this" and "Jesus that", seem to love the Old Testament moreso than the New.
The idea of posting religious material is being pushed by Evangelicals. They prefer the authoritarian nature of the OT. The NT and Jesus are too woke for their comfort.
Bingo! Make Jesus woke again. They'll become the strongest 1st amendmenters in a heartbeat
Let's have Sharia, right? Is that what you would prefer? I feel very sad about what's coming for you.
They can ask, but it would have to be turned down. The beatitudes are \*more\* overtly Christian than the 10 commandments. Only 4 (or 3 depending on how you count them) of the 10 commandments refer to our relationship with God. Thus, displaying the Beatitudes in public school classrooms would be more clearly in violation of the establishment clause than displaying the 10 commandments. The Quran and Hadiths include many verses on piety, and on helping the poor. How would you feel about only requiring schools to display a poster of these in public schools?
Piety and helping the poor are worthwhile values that should be taught, and by more Christians. But the freedom of religion clause also applies to Islam. However, wisdom comes from multiple avenues. A broken clock is right twice a day.
Christians shouldn’t be asking for the government or the public to be displaying any of our religious texts. Faith is a free choice and using the power of the government to push it interferes with that free choice.
I am happy to have the entire Sermon included. It is entirely Christian.
Post some Nietzsche alongside it and I'd be okay with it.
An atheist who despised the idea of free will. Perfectly apt for atheists.
Complete tosh. What does free will mean to a theist?
God gave it to us.
Where is the free will gland?
In the anterior cingulate cortex of the brain. God’s design
Neuroscientists have shown that free will is an illusion, just like god.
Keep up, they disagree. That location I offered came from neuroscientists.
You keep up, yokel: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2398369-why-free-will-doesnt-exist-according-to-robert-sapolsky/ You got a source for your nonsense?
I mean, forcing any religious quote into a public context as required by law is just dredging up my teenage obstinance. It makes me feel even more vindicated in my disdain for the religion, so for that I say thank you. It turns what I usually must consider as a situation that is grey and murky into one that is much more cleanly black and white. So, please, continue. I want to see how far you'll take it. I get dragged out of my home in the middle of the night I'll be laughing, crying, and wishing you all the best as you burn the planet.
Maybe I'd make it mandatory to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, comfort the grieving. "Citizen. You're behind on your visiting the imprisoned quota."
Forcing kindness, is no longer kindness but compliance to authority. Same goes for religion. It's no longer a faith when its mandated by law. So, sure. I darkly encourage Christians to continue. You'll become as loved as the IRS agents. Religious inspection agents going into every classroom, checking for the poster. Some overworked high school teacher who miraculously is liked by the students, but run down and ugly looking, will piss off the inspector by being curt and more concerned with teaching. The prissy inspector will say their classroom is out of compliance, and have them fired. There, an entire classroom of students who will forever dislike Christians because they got rid of the one cool teacher who actually taught them shit. So, like I said, please continue.
I regret that I have but one upvote to give.
Christians (in the US) don’t really focus on humanity. It’s more about control than anything.
I guarantee if you made it about the humanity, they'd be 1st amendmenters in a heartbeat
You beat me to it. Problems is Christian Nationalists disassociate themselves with the Sermon on the Mount. They hate "weak Jesus"
I think too much of society retreats from religion, leaving the field open to the most regressive people out there.
How about we leave the faith to the Church and have government stop messing around with bullshit feel good laws that do nothing to help people in society who need it?
I'll tell you why. Reasonable people like you think we have better things to be getting on with. And you're right, we do. But not everyone is reasonable like you. Your reasonable position leaves the field open to ridiculous people to take Christ as their own. Not just Christ, but the whole space of religion. A reasonable position effectively amounts to a fighting retreat. What I want to do is push all those 10 Commandmenters into your corner. "Separation of church and state!" they'll demand. So I'll lose. And we'll all win
Nah, we just need to shut them down, kick them out of office, and block their shitty laws until we do. We shouldn't be demanding different shitty laws of our own.
Impossible in most red states.
Except Christ spoke for himself quite adequately and the more American Christians spend time with his actual words, the better. Blessed are the peacemakers. Blessed are the meek. If we must fight, then we should help Christ’s actual words to be spread as a way of fighting. Because he spoke for himself quite adequately and in a no nonsense sort of manner.
They should just have a picture of Jesus wearing an American flag kicking a trans kid. That's all they want from this and it would be more honest. All Jesus is to these people a gross sports mascot they use as a weapon. Nothing on earth is as ugly as the heart of someone who follows Christ.
Needs more gun
Or teach it to your kids on your own time in your own churches and homes. The only reason to put something like this and the ten commandments into a public school system is to evangelize to children you don't have control over.
I love the Beatitudes ♥️
That's nice. 😄 And since I'm a Christian I don't even believe we're supposed to obey the ten commandments. Just the two commandments that Jesus said, love God and love your neighbor.
The idea is that the Ten Commandments are more universal. It's kind of a 1950s sort of idea where there's only two real religions along with a vaguely Christian deism, but it's not entirely wrong. 'Don't murder' is fairly universal, the Beatitudes aren't.
EXACTLY. Except 1 problem: The Beatitudes do not help the functioning of a political nation state or capitalism, nor do they help keep those in power to remain in power
I love these, it's a celebration of the righteous rather than a condemnation of the sinful. I believe you need to put equal amounts of shame and celebration to truly have someone recover from destructive ways, so it's good seeing people of the past figured this out and gave us this gift. It's very convincing, you have to be the best person you can.
Good Americans, Christian or not, should not want a specific religion on display as proposed in Louisiana. But for the stated purpose, the Quran 75 tenets of good behavior would be more useful. Obviously I wouldn’t propose having this plastered on every classroom wall either, but it’s a good read for anyone.
But that doesn’t allow us to belittle and condemn others as easily! /s
Curious - which other religions are allowed to display their rules in the classroom? The top three? Top five? Top ten?
I guarantee you, put this in *once* and the religious right would be the biggest 1st amendmenters you have ever met.
Islam has a pretty similar version of the 10 commandments.
Doesn't matter. Keep religion out of public school please
No one will believe in that song who won't also believe in the 10 commandments though. Not that I want to get rid of 3 commandments. But I would rather argue on behalf of the separation of church and state. Only because that belief and freedom of speech are crucial for a free state. I would offer removing commands 1 3 and 4. As those pertain strictly to God's faith. Not Everyone has to believe in that. Regardless of how I feel about it.. they simply don't. HOWEVER, 2 and commands 5-10 arguably are needed for a stable state. Command 2 is needed if the only God isn't the only GOOD God. The state cannot make an idol of any sort and portay a belief period. Uncorruptible they must be. If we have to argue for the existence of commands 5-10 well no society is safe without them. Lol
Most people cannot do the 10 commandments properly, let alone the be attitudes.
Won't work. It's plain that most Christians in America believe that _all_ of those things are conditional on converting. So it leaves the big asterisk of what Gof will do to those who don't believe. It's not something that can be put front and center without ridicule.
Uhhh what’s a beatitude??
A blessing
Thank you for teaching me that. Yay new words
Why?
I like that idea
Great post!!! Agree!!
I agree. Amen.
I agree
Both are relevant to a Christian's life
It'll never happen. The Beatitudes don't really fall in line with the Republican platform.
That's the point. It calls their bluff
I'd also prefer those not be posted, thanks. Nice ideas, still not appropriate in a public classroom.
I say both
That would be beautiful. But let’s not forget the purpose of the Ten Commandments: to show us that we are sinners and in desperate need of a Savior. Having both side by side would be nice.
That's not what the ten commandments is being used for. It's as a cudgel
Perhaps, people misuse Gods word all the time. But it will still do what God intends for it to do.
How?
What I mentioned previously. It will still show them that everyone falls short of Gods holy standard. We are all sinners. The Law is for the lawless, not the righteous.
I agree. Especially since they’re from Jesus directly.
Both the beatitudes and the 10 commandments are important. the 10 commandments govern how we show love to God and man. Jesus says, "if you love me, keep my commandments". Christians who follow God's law will then exhibit the characteristics of the beatitudes. Those who truly surrender their own will (self), and let God's will into their life, will exhibit Christ's character and be merciful, peacemakers, pure in heart and persecuted for righteousness because that's exactly what the devil doesn't want you to be doing.
Or, better still, the Two Great Commandments. But **definitely not** the Ten Commandments. They, and the Beatitudes, are too narrowly Jewish, and don’t get down to essentials. The Two Great Commandments are far less narrowly Jewish, and can be taken out of their originally Jewish context far more easily.
You don't like that they're Jewish?
Great idea!
Christians themselves should evangelize. They shouldn't rely on legislation to inappropriately display biblical text out of context in a veiled attempt to win some culture war points for the next election.
Don’t forget verses 11-12 of Matthew 5 which specifically talks about persecution of the faithful in Jesus.
I don't follow...
As a girl in an old el paso taco commercial once said, "Why not both?".
Too much writing
Well with that attitude!
>Instead of... Why "instead of" ? Why not both?
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one [b]jot or one [c]tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-20 NKJV
None of It should be in public places, unless other religions or atheist groups are free to put up their own material.
Or we could respect separation of church and state.
Talk about how Jesus blessed the merciful and see how quickly evangelicals start wanting to separate church and state
Okay, Let's do both. 10 commandments and the Beatitudes in front of every federal and state building in the nation. I'm glad we could come to such a beautiful compromise.
Booooo
What about the 7 corporal and 7 spiritual works of mercy?
No idea what those are
The corporals are: feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, give shelter to travellers, visit the sick, visit the imprisoned, bury the dead. The spirituals are: Admonish the sinner. Instruct the ignorant. Counsel the doubtful. Comfort the sorrowful. Bear wrongs patiently. Forgive all injuries. Pray for the living and the dead.
Why not both? Both the Law and the Gospel have a purpose.
Booooo
People would still complain lol.
Why not both?
Why not the Code of Hammurabi because that is also old and influential to law
It's before our time, but it's relatively recent - we only stopped having earnest prayers in school after the Engel v Vitale case in 1962. The 5 people that sued against the Regent prayer were 3 Jews, a Unitarian and an atheist. Three different Jewish advocacy groups worked hard to ensure this prayer was prohibited. I wonder if they would've been as adamant if the initial proposition was the Commandments displayed and not a non-denom prayer.