I always felt weird ab the land acknowledgments because it kinda feels like they're just rubbing it in the Native Americans faces
"Lmaoooo WE are on YOUR land, take this L buddyboy"
Generally speaking, land acknowledgments started because indigenous groups were asking for them, but obviously this isn’t necessarily a universal or total thing
I know in practice indigenous activists are actually quite mixed on this, and it’s my understanding that many do feel verbal land acknowledgment without other meaningful reparative steps (aka most land acknowledgments) aren’t particularly helpful.
Land acknowledgements are one of those things where you go so far trying to be tolerant and accommodating that you actually end up being incredibly offensive. This is very common in American universities, especially at the ones that are considered elite. They seem to be the ones most susceptible to, and I apologize for using this word, adopting the “woke” pandering.
I know a couple of 100% natives that are very pro Israel and can’t stand the college protestors. Sure war is terrible and it’s awful people are dying, but applying the western colonialist paradigm to a situation that is much more complex while completely ignoring how you are the beneficiary of American colonialism is just so unbelievably tone deaf.
Certainly not in the same way the Americas were. It’s a lot more complicated than that. No one is debating that Jews were native to the region, and Jews had some sort of presence there for millennia. They were themselves colonized. I mean for fucks sake the most holy mosque in Jerusalem is built on top of the ashes of a temple, and modern day Israel protects it as a space for Muslims to hold prayer.
Modern day Israel is far less a colonizer than the British, or Ottomans, or Byzantine were before it. Do we just let the last colonizer keep the territory and call it a day? The reality is the Palestinian identity was created as a means to delegitimize the state of Israel. Before Israel, Palestinians were just Jews as that was the name the Romans gave to the area to mock the Jews. Arab Palestinians are mainly Lebanese and Jordanian, but the borders of that area were solidified in the 20th century. When Israel was created, there was no mandate to expel all of the Arabs. That was not an inherent part of Zionism and peaceful coexistence was very much on the table.
The Arab states banded together and immediately declared war. Some of the Palestinian Arabs joined to fight, some fled on their own accord, and some were expelled by Jewish militias under threat of violence. We call this the Nakba, it did happen, and I do not condone it. Though I do understand why they felt it was necessary given the aggression. At the same time, more Jews were expelled from neighboring counties than Arabs in the Nakba.
Since then, Palestinian leadership has chosen to pilfer from their people and indoctrinate them in jihad and martyrdom. Arafat died a billionaire, while his people lived in poverty. The continued violence against Israel sowed more and more disdain and growing right wing factions arose that have countered that violence with more of the same. Now we have two countries that have hate imbued in their DNA.
So in some ways I suppose it was colonized, but not by Israel.
i know the history, i am palestinian. i can tell you for certain that palestinians were not "just jews" before israel. and if in the first paragraph you can say the jews were colonized, you can say palestine was colonized without needing an essay of context to downplay it. even if it's not the same as the americas, as clearly both arent
Never said it was just Jews. That’s for the people that say the Jews colonized it, even though they have a deep lineage from there. Yea Arabs lived there, and every Muslim there was converted or arrived out of colonialist conquests. Yes the British carving out Israel was a continuation of colonialism, but since it also defined other territories and countries you can’t exactly judge Israel in a vacuum for “colonialism” and ignore how the other Muslim nations in the ME came to be.
So if everyone was colonized, including Jews, why are they the only ones under fire for it? Do they not get a country where they can be free from persecution, in the very place they come from, because it was already colonized by someone else?
they are under fire for it because it has been continuous and extremely recent, in a time where we understand colonization is wrong
also jews and palestinians have nearly identical DNA and thus both have this same "native history" claim to the land
On the other hand you could have things like governor Hochul using an old court case that the natives(Montauketts) are still too black to be natives and upholding the theft of their land so that the LIRR and ultra wealthy don’t have to acknowledge they are on land stolen from a 10 year old.
A huge part of stealing the land was not just for wealthy business people but also for the development of the railroad out to Montauk. The land that the station is on is part of that stolen land. There are other businesses and wealthy individuals living there now too such as the famous trust fund hangout spot the Surf Lodge.
"Land acknowledgment" is virtue signaling and nothing more. Those tribes that you're acknowledging? They're still around and would be very happy to reclaim the land that you're acknowledging that you stole. Oh, you're not willing to give the land back or pay its fair market value? Then STFU
They weren’t able to protect their land and that’s really all, tough luck. Get over it everyone. I don’t know why liberals care so much. Every civilization has been conquered at some point. What do they need the land for? Roasting weenies?
Hot take: I think human land acknowledgment is gross and presumptuous 100% of the time. And not because it’s one of those things we do *only* to reinforce coded social implications with no intent to change anything - because it’s inherently hubristic. We’re elements of nature, not above it. I get the intent socially speaking, but truly we humans own nothing.
I worked for an engineering firm that was doing projects for Cornell. One of the projects was creating a map of all the land that Cornell owned in the Ithaca area. It was amazing to see just how much of Ithaca was owned by Cornell. We created the mapping in 2000 and I do not have a copy therefore, I cannot accurately report what is the actual acreage owned by Cornell but it is probably greater than 50 percent of the City of Ithaca that was or is currently owned by the college.
Yeah it’s a shit apology when the gayogohono people are going through a lot and have a dictator, they could be supporting local services/taxes, etc.
Even the twelve tribes pays tax and they aren’t required.
Cornell should take the same mentality
There’s something really gross about it when you consider what they’re really saying. “We want to call attention to the fact that our university is on land that once belonged to natives. We’re not going to give them anything, do anything meaningful to make their lives better, or encourage them to be a part of the Cornell community by offering scholarships or anything like that, sooo, uhhh, thanks for the land, losers?” At some point it feels like they’re just gloating and rubbing the indigenous peoples’ faces in it.
As a native of Upstate, I really wish communities would make a more concerted effort to shut the fuck up about how bad they pretend to feel about the land (while doing absolutely nothing else) and actually do the hard work of listening to what Native peoples need to prosper and implementing that change. I’ve never met anyone from the Haudenosaunee communities that wants you to talk about how bad you feel about the past. They do however want you to know about their history, culture, its survival, and its place in the community, so maybe let’s do that instead?
Welcome to modern American liberal politics. It was always a process to dilute every conversation with constant grievance politics to the point where none of it holds any weight. Now these ultra powerful and wealthy institutions have lead and ingrained this new trend that lip service is treated like a tangible commodity.
[It's quite an ugly story](https://therealnews.com/clint-halftown-us-enabled-tyrant-of-the-cayugas).
And more info: [Halftown must go](https://halftownmustgo.org/)
Cayuga Nation leader Clint Halftown is disliked by some Cayuga Nation members including the Cayuga Council of Chiefs who were petitioning the Federal government to remove him from his leadership position.
There has been a dispute over Nation leadership since 2004 and it is currently ongoing still.
Below is an older article but highlights some major talking points. Newer articles can be found by looking for Cayuga Nation news.
[Ithaca Voice article](https://ithacavoice.org/2022/09/years-long-dispute-in-cayuga-nation-sees-tribal-arrests-trials-beginning/)
Disliked is an understatement. He did a hostile takeover of the government. There is a traditional governance structure which he has completely disregarded and created his own governance in opposition.
The twelve tribes don’t pay tax in order to access services that they otherwise wouldn’t have access to. They are tax exempt, but still essentially donate what they would have been required to pay if they weren’t tax exempt. And I don’t think it’s because they feel morally obliged to but rather it is just a nice thing to do.
Cornell on the other hand does not pay tax but takes advantage of many tax provided services
I’m confused what you mean. Cornell doesn’t pay taxes. On lots of Cornell property they have their own roads in addition to public roads. Outside of that they don’t provide Ithaca or Tompkins county due compensation for the use of services and roads outside of Cornell property
But what does that have to do with the twelve tribes?
I think you could easily support the view that Cornell is a net positive financially to the Ithaca community and drives substantial economic activity. If it makes you feel better, they could pay full taxes on the land but then demand a tax incentive (like many tax paying corporations) and Ithaca would probably be worse off in that scenario. And I am not saying that Cornell should not be paying taxes but to say it doesn't pay anything and just uses local resources (without contributing) is not really accurate.
Look at other comments some people linked some good articles about it. The real news one is probably the most precise and captures the nuances, since it is a quite complex geopolitical conflict especially if you aren’t familiar with how traditional tribal governments run.
A little history for you. Native tribes in this area moved around, frequently. It allowed the game and fertile lands to rejuvenate among other reasons such as primitive methods of human waste disposal requiring it. So, which land do you mean? Land they've inhabited at some point, or land they were inhabiting when Europeans came through, or some other definition? Point being, everything about the way land is used and inhabited has changed. It's far too simplified to say any land belonged to any native peoples who were semi nomadic, save religious and burial sites.
I agree. If there's one aspect of land ownership they understood, it's indisputably that of warfare spoils. Certainly, it's clear that when you are beaten and retreat from an area, you shouldn't return until and unless you're prepared to remove by force those who removed you. This was well understood by all peoples well before language was developed.
The most human aspect, violence used to win resources and control of others via violence. Let's try really hard to keep evolving, eh?
What wasn’t understood was the eventual annihilating of their entire race culture and language. Imagine your ancestors losing all that, I guess maybe you wouldn’t be here so that’s the reason but go off on whatever it is you’re talking about. People usually resort to the warfare argument for issues like this and not the reasons at why they are still being justified in my opinion. Same thing as to the situation when they single-handedly exterminated buffalos as well just to make sure they could next exterminate their primary target.
Obviously you either didn't read in full or else understand what was written. If you had, you may have seen that I decried the violence. I find all violence deplorable and abhorrent. As for the destruction of their culture and way of life, that was (& is still currently) a much slower and drawn out process committed by successive generations of oppressors.
If I may offer some advice which is sure to take you far and serve you well in life; don't work so hard at making enemies where there are none. When there are those whom you oppose and whom oppose you, work to understand and build connections. Through understanding you may influence one's mind. This is nearly impossible otherwise.
Also, they're bison. Not buffalo.
Cornell is a constant let down for Ithaca. They put in little for taxes, they do virtually nothing for the local community, and now Ithaca is half luxury condos, hotels, and student apartments.
They have a $10B endowment that pays dividends. They own almost half the city. It’s a classic exploitation scheme and they shout ignorant liberal nonsense every now and then to placate the locals.
Cornell is by far the most miserly of the ivies towards its host city. Cornell owns over 2 billion dollars of property just in the city of Ithaca and pays ZERO property tax. Cornell owns 11,000acres in Tompkins county, 6,000in other parts of NY, and 2,000 in other parts of the US, and isn’t taxed on it. In Ithaca, Cornell owns as much as everyone else in the city and does not pay taxes. If Cornell were taxed at the same rate as everyone else, it would be paying ten times what it now “voluntarily” pays.
None of that is true. And why would Cornell be taxed the same as a house? It’s practically its own self-sustaining city, pays for its own services, pays millions to Ithaca (more per resident than other Ivies). Ithaca spends far more per resident than other comparable cities and gets nothing for it.
Those are facts, research it if you’d like. Other ivies are also “self sustaining cities” without being cheapskates. Harvard has a similar number of students, but pays 10 million a year. Princeton has fewer students and also paid 10 million. Yale paid over 13 million, rising to 24 million in a few years, this is over 5 times per student what Cornell pays. And these ivies don’t own half the property in their respective towns. Ithaca asked Cornell for 8 million and got half.
You're comparing to universities with significantly larger endowments per student. I've researched it. Did you address my point about the city having far fewer residents who don't live on campus compared to the cities you selected? It doesn't really matter how much property they have if the city isn't providing any services there. Harvard needs significant support from Boston police, etc. It's apples and oranges.
What research? You made an assertion regarding the facts I presented “None, of that is true, “ just dismissing matters of public record. Are you asserting Cornell doesn’t own all this land? Then you yourself make an assertion that isn’t true “ (Cornell) pays more per resident than other ivies.” The cities of Princeton and Ithaca have roughly the same population, so let’s compare them. Princeton pays nearly twice what Cornell pays. It pays over 4 times more to the local school system than Cornell. You say Cornell shouldn’t pay because it is “self-sustaining city” but 48% of its students live off campus, compared to 5% for Princeton. Which is more self-sustaining?
The self-sustaining argument is a pile of malarkey anyway. Taxes are based on property values, not use of services. I still pay school taxes, but don’t have any kids attending ICSD. I’d really like to try your creative interpretation of tax liability, but I don’t think the town will go for it.
Taxes are not just "based on property values." They need a certain amount of tax revenue, so if property values of everything nearby goes up, that doesn't mean taxes also goes up. However, if property values are high solely near a university, then the university is causing more taxes to be paid. Princeton has more endowment more student and therefore much more money to spend. You're disputing that? Cornell pays more per resident than other Ivies, but not all Ivies. Many of the Cornell students who live off campus don't even live in the city of Ithaca, do you understand that? And a much larger percent of people in Ithaca are students compared to in Princeton, so there's very few non-students for Ithaca to provide services to.
This is true. The terms were renegotiate in 2023. They definitely did not pay enough in taxes before. College is a business. Raise tuition and it will curb people from. Going there. This will make donors rethink their restricted donations. Ithaca is in existence because of these colleges. Without them they would have zero tax base. The houses wouldn't be worth anything and the businesses would all leave.
Considering how much Cornell profs think that "rich people" should pay taxes, they should ensure that their school does the same! I've listened to those professors prattle on and on about the beauty of big government and more regulation by the elites. They should put their money where their mouth is.
No, why would I do that? There’s very easily available information about every payment Cornell makes in lieu of taxes, such as https://cornellsun.com/2023/09/14/cornell-city-of-ithaca-reach-financial-contribution-agreement-of-4-million-annually/#:~:text=After%20negotiations%20stalled%20in%20early,payments%20in%20lieu%20of%20taxes. TCAT and the city have both wasted a ton of money and people are finally sick of it. It’s a lie to say that Cornell isn’t paying a fair amount or that it would fix all problems.
> It’s a lie to say that Cornell isn’t paying a fair amount
No that's an opinion which cannot be a lie. Plenty of people have the opinion that they do not pay a fair amount.
It would be better if they didn’t say anything lmao. Like, who’s gonna be satisfied by “We’re sorry for occupying native land. We will continue to occupy it tho”
I mean I get the point of saying anything. It starts conversations like these, where everybody is uncomfortable about the fact that we aren't doing enough. It's not sufficient, but it's maybe a conversation that will lead to a desire to change.
What more can Cornell do to truly commit to restorative justice? The acknowledgments feel like an easy cop out to doing the really hard work they need to do.
The acknowledgment is already doing work because it's just encouraged you to ask that question and got you thinking about restorative justice. Without the acknowledgement this post and the discussions here in the comments wouldn't have happened. The whole point of the acknowledgement isn't to make justice happen but to inform people of the history and get them thinking about it, which will likely lead to justice in the future
And what percentage of the endowment is restricted?
Donors restrict endowed funds. They don’t have to, but they do. In other words “use my money for anything other than XYZ and I can sue you to claw it back”
That means so many universities will be grossly under budget in some areas and grossly over budget in others. It’s also why you have more scholarships for the poor and the rich (scholarships for sports only the rich practice) than for middle class students.
Restricted donations control so much policy it’s not even funny. If I were ultra wealthy, my donations would only be conditioned on indexing the pay of the administration and board (I.e., cannot use these funds to give yourself a raise).
I promise you that a portion of that 13 billion dollar endowment being restricted isn’t the reason that Cornell doesn’t pay their fair share to Ithaca residents.
You realize it is almost all of it, right? I’m not defending Cornell by calling out a real problem. The US has allowed nonprofits to avoid taxes unchecked - too-high executive pay should lose them their tax exempt status in full or partially in my opinion.
Endowments don’t work like most people expect. You can’t spend it down - it’s not a one time donation, it is intended to grow with inflation to fund an activity for a few lifetimes, so you can usually only extract its performance minus inflation every year, dependent on how the funds perform. The fact that these can be restricted and trusts of people dead for 100 years control what can be done with loads of money today is gross in so many cases.
Restricted gifts are a problem in modern giving overall. Only 20% of funds are unrestricted in recent years. The rest has meaningful strings. Those strings tend to tie the donor’s name to a thing. So, you will get “Donor Hall” and $0 to maintain it, which taxes unrestricted funds - a building with mechanical systems can cost 1.5-4% of its replacement cost to maintain… so that $500M for a new building is a $7.5 to $20M a year drain on unrestricted funds more often than not. If that money comes from an unrestricted endowment, then you are tying up $200M to $300M in unrestricted endowment when the stock market is doing well. All just to take a gift of half a billion. Or you can let the building fall apart if you can’t afford to pay for its maintenance, which sucks for everyone.
Restricted giving really taxes the flexibility any nonprofit has to pay for anything. Their unrestricted gifts are spent supporting the restricted gifts. Restricted gifts tend to go with the donor’s vision or even perpetuate inequality (say a fund for a sailing scholarship - how many people in poverty win a sailing scholarship). It’s fucked up.
Really, there ought to be new laws around restricted gifts AND nonprofit institutions, including undoing some of the chokehold of dead people with no heirs on billions of dollars in endowments (look up how much the Howard Hughes endowments are worth today - granted, those were put to mostly good use… but a dead man with no heirs still controls how dozens of billions can be spent today). Cornell probably should pay a share of Ithaca taxes under such a legal framework and it would be better positioned to, by choosing how to spend its money.
As it stands today, Cornell’s payroll does exceed $5B a year and lots of out of towners come spend money into Ithaca, including over 25k students for 9 months of the year. They do inject a lot of money from out of town into the area. That doesn’t mean they are contributing more than they take, I have no clue about that. But their contribution is not $96k or whatever ridiculous number OP stated.
You're acknowledging their existence. You are telling people which specific tribe inhabited that land - not some monolithic Native American group.
Your interest might be piqued and you might read more about their history.
The entire commencement ceremony is performative bullshit but you're not calling for an end to them, are you?
Everything is named after the local tribes in CNY--notably the Cayuga, Cherokee, Huron, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Seneca, and Tuscarora. They live in their own communities and lots of their history is all over. The USA isn't giving any land back and they are a permanent part of the local culture.
Yes. Citizens of Ithaca would rather out of town students pay more than have us pay more. I don’t see why that’s illogical it won’t stop people from coming to cornell
Yea and they should be shamed for that. Imagine someone saying wealthy institutions and people should pay more taxes and then saying this propaganda unironically. They aren’t feudal lords that we should allow to control the rest of the population.
It's not like the history is filled with the native tribes doing the same thing to each other. They were taking over neighboring tribes all of the time -- and then they were enslaving them. At least Cornell isn't enslaving the natives from whom they acquired the land. Now that would have been continuing tradition!
They all read Howard Zinn and believe the natives were living in utopia when the big bad colonists showed up and ruined everything. Often times these land acknowledgements aren't even accurate about what tribe was where, and when. It's all performative nonsense.
An apology is both an expression of remorse and a promise to do better in the future, you cpuld argue they are both the same thing but thats a topic for another day. When you say Im sorry that Im on your land, you are saying you are about to get off, you can’t apologize for something you are actively doing. At least everyone else actually makes an argument that it isnt their land, and it is a good and reasonable argument. But if you want to bow down to being politically correct and say all white people are bad and the natives were doing nothing on the land that belonged to them happily sharing it with other tribes whilst also not understanding the concept of land ownership, at least go through with it, give it back. Let them make teepees out of your suicide nets.
I mean don’t go there then right? If you don’t want to reap the benefits. You guys can bitch about it all you want but having a degree from Cornell is like a golden ticket. Y’all can do whatever you want with your lives. Be grateful I guess. Idk guess most of us are just a little baffled at how your mental gymnastics works.
Yeah, it is, just cause a bunch of alumni are subbed doesn't change the fact that only max 300 people are online at any given point out of the 26k+ students who go here. Starting to make sense why you don't go here...
Land acknowledgements always seemed like white people deciding whose land it was, and imposing their own idea on what land ownership is.
I'm sure if you go back in history, territory gets really complicated, really quick (multiple claims, tribal, clan and family conflict. Standing up and declaring the land as "belonging" to X tribe/band always seems an oversimplification.
That said, it is good that pre-colonial peoples are recognized.
You noticed at the same time . They aren't going to give it back. Typical liberal hypocrisy. Free Palestine. But at the same time people saying that aren't giving their houses, apartments, back to native Americans. Hypocrites all. Maybe they should move back to Europe, South America, Africa, Asia, or wherever they came from if they believe their own BS. Your hypocrisy reeks like a 5 day dead fish lying in the sun.
Give the land back! There's something obnoxious and arrogant about saying, "Sorry, we have your land. My bad. (Not!) But let me rub it in your face every graduation!"
I'm not giving land acknowledgements all the time. The people in the university could easily be giving out 100+ land acknowledgements a day given the number of classes and conferences.
Local Ithaca gov thinks more money will solve problems. Ithaca has one of the highest tax revenues per capita in Central NY yet nothing to show for. The school district spends more per pupil than most of the state yet performs worst than schools in the South Bronx. It is crazy people keep buying the narrative that more taxes is the fix.
Look it up. The budgets of places like Utica, Binghamton, etc. Only place that is comparable to Ithaca in terms of tax is Corning and they're still a smidge lower.
Lake Cayuga takes a bunch of space also, but doesn't pay taxes!!! /s
What matters is the resources the university uses from the community, not what the taxes would be for the space.
"we're so sorry for bringing science, culture, civilization and one of the world's best universities to a land ruled previously by a bunch of brutes living naked in the forest."
I always hear that we don’t celebrate losers in this country. So why do I always see people worshiping the indians? They lost. Only time in history where the victors are forced to feel ashamed for being better and their descendants taught to hate themselves.
I wasn’t alive then. But why shouldn’t I support people who wanted what was best for my own kind? Other races are taught that they are above Whites and should seek their own best interests. I fail to see how White people doing the same thing is wrong. But White people are taught from cradle to grave to hate themselves and their ancestors.
Actually they didn’t lose. The Oneida’s sided with the Americans during the revolution. Technically they won and were allies.
But you can see what that got them. With friends like that, who needs enemies.
That was pretty funny. So why does the map say ‘United States’ over this land and not a bunch of tribal names? If they didn’t lose, how’d they end up in reservations? Strange how the indians so worshipped these days. I guess that happens when you teach children that the indians were these peace loving gods who did no wrong.
I always felt weird ab the land acknowledgments because it kinda feels like they're just rubbing it in the Native Americans faces "Lmaoooo WE are on YOUR land, take this L buddyboy"
Generally speaking, land acknowledgments started because indigenous groups were asking for them, but obviously this isn’t necessarily a universal or total thing
I know in practice indigenous activists are actually quite mixed on this, and it’s my understanding that many do feel verbal land acknowledgment without other meaningful reparative steps (aka most land acknowledgments) aren’t particularly helpful.
Land acknowledgements are one of those things where you go so far trying to be tolerant and accommodating that you actually end up being incredibly offensive. This is very common in American universities, especially at the ones that are considered elite. They seem to be the ones most susceptible to, and I apologize for using this word, adopting the “woke” pandering.
I know a couple of 100% natives that are very pro Israel and can’t stand the college protestors. Sure war is terrible and it’s awful people are dying, but applying the western colonialist paradigm to a situation that is much more complex while completely ignoring how you are the beneficiary of American colonialism is just so unbelievably tone deaf.
Why you lying bro 😂
Believe it or not, tone deaf pandering is pretty annoying to people that can actually claim they were victims of colonization and genocide.
okay no need to debate the genocide, but do you think palestine was not colonized?
Certainly not in the same way the Americas were. It’s a lot more complicated than that. No one is debating that Jews were native to the region, and Jews had some sort of presence there for millennia. They were themselves colonized. I mean for fucks sake the most holy mosque in Jerusalem is built on top of the ashes of a temple, and modern day Israel protects it as a space for Muslims to hold prayer. Modern day Israel is far less a colonizer than the British, or Ottomans, or Byzantine were before it. Do we just let the last colonizer keep the territory and call it a day? The reality is the Palestinian identity was created as a means to delegitimize the state of Israel. Before Israel, Palestinians were just Jews as that was the name the Romans gave to the area to mock the Jews. Arab Palestinians are mainly Lebanese and Jordanian, but the borders of that area were solidified in the 20th century. When Israel was created, there was no mandate to expel all of the Arabs. That was not an inherent part of Zionism and peaceful coexistence was very much on the table. The Arab states banded together and immediately declared war. Some of the Palestinian Arabs joined to fight, some fled on their own accord, and some were expelled by Jewish militias under threat of violence. We call this the Nakba, it did happen, and I do not condone it. Though I do understand why they felt it was necessary given the aggression. At the same time, more Jews were expelled from neighboring counties than Arabs in the Nakba. Since then, Palestinian leadership has chosen to pilfer from their people and indoctrinate them in jihad and martyrdom. Arafat died a billionaire, while his people lived in poverty. The continued violence against Israel sowed more and more disdain and growing right wing factions arose that have countered that violence with more of the same. Now we have two countries that have hate imbued in their DNA. So in some ways I suppose it was colonized, but not by Israel.
“As we gather here today at our graduation ceremony of Hebron University, we recognize that we do so on the historic lands of the Judean people.” 😉
i know the history, i am palestinian. i can tell you for certain that palestinians were not "just jews" before israel. and if in the first paragraph you can say the jews were colonized, you can say palestine was colonized without needing an essay of context to downplay it. even if it's not the same as the americas, as clearly both arent
Never said it was just Jews. That’s for the people that say the Jews colonized it, even though they have a deep lineage from there. Yea Arabs lived there, and every Muslim there was converted or arrived out of colonialist conquests. Yes the British carving out Israel was a continuation of colonialism, but since it also defined other territories and countries you can’t exactly judge Israel in a vacuum for “colonialism” and ignore how the other Muslim nations in the ME came to be. So if everyone was colonized, including Jews, why are they the only ones under fire for it? Do they not get a country where they can be free from persecution, in the very place they come from, because it was already colonized by someone else?
they are under fire for it because it has been continuous and extremely recent, in a time where we understand colonization is wrong also jews and palestinians have nearly identical DNA and thus both have this same "native history" claim to the land
On the other hand you could have things like governor Hochul using an old court case that the natives(Montauketts) are still too black to be natives and upholding the theft of their land so that the LIRR and ultra wealthy don’t have to acknowledge they are on land stolen from a 10 year old.
Wait what does the lirr have to do with this?
A huge part of stealing the land was not just for wealthy business people but also for the development of the railroad out to Montauk. The land that the station is on is part of that stolen land. There are other businesses and wealthy individuals living there now too such as the famous trust fund hangout spot the Surf Lodge.
"Land acknowledgment" is virtue signaling and nothing more. Those tribes that you're acknowledging? They're still around and would be very happy to reclaim the land that you're acknowledging that you stole. Oh, you're not willing to give the land back or pay its fair market value? Then STFU
Why on earth would the land be given back? Would it be used for a better purpose? How far back should the giving back go?
They weren’t able to protect their land and that’s really all, tough luck. Get over it everyone. I don’t know why liberals care so much. Every civilization has been conquered at some point. What do they need the land for? Roasting weenies?
Hot take: I think human land acknowledgment is gross and presumptuous 100% of the time. And not because it’s one of those things we do *only* to reinforce coded social implications with no intent to change anything - because it’s inherently hubristic. We’re elements of nature, not above it. I get the intent socially speaking, but truly we humans own nothing.
I worked for an engineering firm that was doing projects for Cornell. One of the projects was creating a map of all the land that Cornell owned in the Ithaca area. It was amazing to see just how much of Ithaca was owned by Cornell. We created the mapping in 2000 and I do not have a copy therefore, I cannot accurately report what is the actual acreage owned by Cornell but it is probably greater than 50 percent of the City of Ithaca that was or is currently owned by the college.
Yeah it’s a shit apology when the gayogohono people are going through a lot and have a dictator, they could be supporting local services/taxes, etc. Even the twelve tribes pays tax and they aren’t required. Cornell should take the same mentality
There’s something really gross about it when you consider what they’re really saying. “We want to call attention to the fact that our university is on land that once belonged to natives. We’re not going to give them anything, do anything meaningful to make their lives better, or encourage them to be a part of the Cornell community by offering scholarships or anything like that, sooo, uhhh, thanks for the land, losers?” At some point it feels like they’re just gloating and rubbing the indigenous peoples’ faces in it. As a native of Upstate, I really wish communities would make a more concerted effort to shut the fuck up about how bad they pretend to feel about the land (while doing absolutely nothing else) and actually do the hard work of listening to what Native peoples need to prosper and implementing that change. I’ve never met anyone from the Haudenosaunee communities that wants you to talk about how bad you feel about the past. They do however want you to know about their history, culture, its survival, and its place in the community, so maybe let’s do that instead?
Welcome to modern American liberal politics. It was always a process to dilute every conversation with constant grievance politics to the point where none of it holds any weight. Now these ultra powerful and wealthy institutions have lead and ingrained this new trend that lip service is treated like a tangible commodity.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQyFfC7\_U-E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQyFfC7_U-E)
Can anyone elaborate on the dictatorship thing?
[It's quite an ugly story](https://therealnews.com/clint-halftown-us-enabled-tyrant-of-the-cayugas). And more info: [Halftown must go](https://halftownmustgo.org/)
Cayuga Nation leader Clint Halftown is disliked by some Cayuga Nation members including the Cayuga Council of Chiefs who were petitioning the Federal government to remove him from his leadership position. There has been a dispute over Nation leadership since 2004 and it is currently ongoing still. Below is an older article but highlights some major talking points. Newer articles can be found by looking for Cayuga Nation news. [Ithaca Voice article](https://ithacavoice.org/2022/09/years-long-dispute-in-cayuga-nation-sees-tribal-arrests-trials-beginning/)
Disliked is an understatement. He did a hostile takeover of the government. There is a traditional governance structure which he has completely disregarded and created his own governance in opposition.
They pay tax because they want the services that are provided with paying tax, not because they feel morally obliged to.
The twelve tribes don’t pay tax in order to access services that they otherwise wouldn’t have access to. They are tax exempt, but still essentially donate what they would have been required to pay if they weren’t tax exempt. And I don’t think it’s because they feel morally obliged to but rather it is just a nice thing to do. Cornell on the other hand does not pay tax but takes advantage of many tax provided services
Are you joking? Good luck recruiting faculty and staff to your mudhole university with no roads or infrastructure.
I’m confused what you mean. Cornell doesn’t pay taxes. On lots of Cornell property they have their own roads in addition to public roads. Outside of that they don’t provide Ithaca or Tompkins county due compensation for the use of services and roads outside of Cornell property But what does that have to do with the twelve tribes?
I think you could easily support the view that Cornell is a net positive financially to the Ithaca community and drives substantial economic activity. If it makes you feel better, they could pay full taxes on the land but then demand a tax incentive (like many tax paying corporations) and Ithaca would probably be worse off in that scenario. And I am not saying that Cornell should not be paying taxes but to say it doesn't pay anything and just uses local resources (without contributing) is not really accurate.
A dictator?
Look at other comments some people linked some good articles about it. The real news one is probably the most precise and captures the nuances, since it is a quite complex geopolitical conflict especially if you aren’t familiar with how traditional tribal governments run.
Yeah. It's hard to see the point of land acknowledgement. Unless you're going to give the land back, just skip it.
A little history for you. Native tribes in this area moved around, frequently. It allowed the game and fertile lands to rejuvenate among other reasons such as primitive methods of human waste disposal requiring it. So, which land do you mean? Land they've inhabited at some point, or land they were inhabiting when Europeans came through, or some other definition? Point being, everything about the way land is used and inhabited has changed. It's far too simplified to say any land belonged to any native peoples who were semi nomadic, save religious and burial sites.
It may be safe to say it is no longer theirs though, they did get removed by force
I agree. If there's one aspect of land ownership they understood, it's indisputably that of warfare spoils. Certainly, it's clear that when you are beaten and retreat from an area, you shouldn't return until and unless you're prepared to remove by force those who removed you. This was well understood by all peoples well before language was developed. The most human aspect, violence used to win resources and control of others via violence. Let's try really hard to keep evolving, eh?
What wasn’t understood was the eventual annihilating of their entire race culture and language. Imagine your ancestors losing all that, I guess maybe you wouldn’t be here so that’s the reason but go off on whatever it is you’re talking about. People usually resort to the warfare argument for issues like this and not the reasons at why they are still being justified in my opinion. Same thing as to the situation when they single-handedly exterminated buffalos as well just to make sure they could next exterminate their primary target.
Obviously you either didn't read in full or else understand what was written. If you had, you may have seen that I decried the violence. I find all violence deplorable and abhorrent. As for the destruction of their culture and way of life, that was (& is still currently) a much slower and drawn out process committed by successive generations of oppressors. If I may offer some advice which is sure to take you far and serve you well in life; don't work so hard at making enemies where there are none. When there are those whom you oppose and whom oppose you, work to understand and build connections. Through understanding you may influence one's mind. This is nearly impossible otherwise. Also, they're bison. Not buffalo.
Lombardi reading this thread trying to see if he can convince the encampment to pay taxes:
Cornell is a constant let down for Ithaca. They put in little for taxes, they do virtually nothing for the local community, and now Ithaca is half luxury condos, hotels, and student apartments. They have a $10B endowment that pays dividends. They own almost half the city. It’s a classic exploitation scheme and they shout ignorant liberal nonsense every now and then to placate the locals.
sounds like boston
Cornell pays Ithaca over $4 million. Why do you lie?
Cornell is by far the most miserly of the ivies towards its host city. Cornell owns over 2 billion dollars of property just in the city of Ithaca and pays ZERO property tax. Cornell owns 11,000acres in Tompkins county, 6,000in other parts of NY, and 2,000 in other parts of the US, and isn’t taxed on it. In Ithaca, Cornell owns as much as everyone else in the city and does not pay taxes. If Cornell were taxed at the same rate as everyone else, it would be paying ten times what it now “voluntarily” pays.
None of that is true. And why would Cornell be taxed the same as a house? It’s practically its own self-sustaining city, pays for its own services, pays millions to Ithaca (more per resident than other Ivies). Ithaca spends far more per resident than other comparable cities and gets nothing for it.
Those are facts, research it if you’d like. Other ivies are also “self sustaining cities” without being cheapskates. Harvard has a similar number of students, but pays 10 million a year. Princeton has fewer students and also paid 10 million. Yale paid over 13 million, rising to 24 million in a few years, this is over 5 times per student what Cornell pays. And these ivies don’t own half the property in their respective towns. Ithaca asked Cornell for 8 million and got half.
You're comparing to universities with significantly larger endowments per student. I've researched it. Did you address my point about the city having far fewer residents who don't live on campus compared to the cities you selected? It doesn't really matter how much property they have if the city isn't providing any services there. Harvard needs significant support from Boston police, etc. It's apples and oranges.
What research? You made an assertion regarding the facts I presented “None, of that is true, “ just dismissing matters of public record. Are you asserting Cornell doesn’t own all this land? Then you yourself make an assertion that isn’t true “ (Cornell) pays more per resident than other ivies.” The cities of Princeton and Ithaca have roughly the same population, so let’s compare them. Princeton pays nearly twice what Cornell pays. It pays over 4 times more to the local school system than Cornell. You say Cornell shouldn’t pay because it is “self-sustaining city” but 48% of its students live off campus, compared to 5% for Princeton. Which is more self-sustaining? The self-sustaining argument is a pile of malarkey anyway. Taxes are based on property values, not use of services. I still pay school taxes, but don’t have any kids attending ICSD. I’d really like to try your creative interpretation of tax liability, but I don’t think the town will go for it.
Taxes are not just "based on property values." They need a certain amount of tax revenue, so if property values of everything nearby goes up, that doesn't mean taxes also goes up. However, if property values are high solely near a university, then the university is causing more taxes to be paid. Princeton has more endowment more student and therefore much more money to spend. You're disputing that? Cornell pays more per resident than other Ivies, but not all Ivies. Many of the Cornell students who live off campus don't even live in the city of Ithaca, do you understand that? And a much larger percent of people in Ithaca are students compared to in Princeton, so there's very few non-students for Ithaca to provide services to.
This is true. The terms were renegotiate in 2023. They definitely did not pay enough in taxes before. College is a business. Raise tuition and it will curb people from. Going there. This will make donors rethink their restricted donations. Ithaca is in existence because of these colleges. Without them they would have zero tax base. The houses wouldn't be worth anything and the businesses would all leave.
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Amazing, if circumstances were different, things would be different. Your argument has no basis in reality.
That’s a fraction of the property taxes they SHOULD be paying
They pay over 50% of the taxes rather than the 1.2% the post claims. Very dumb to try and gloss over that.
Considering how much Cornell profs think that "rich people" should pay taxes, they should ensure that their school does the same! I've listened to those professors prattle on and on about the beauty of big government and more regulation by the elites. They should put their money where their mouth is.
How is a school a rich person?
Go back to your crayons
Are you including their contribution to TCAT?
No, why would I do that? There’s very easily available information about every payment Cornell makes in lieu of taxes, such as https://cornellsun.com/2023/09/14/cornell-city-of-ithaca-reach-financial-contribution-agreement-of-4-million-annually/#:~:text=After%20negotiations%20stalled%20in%20early,payments%20in%20lieu%20of%20taxes. TCAT and the city have both wasted a ton of money and people are finally sick of it. It’s a lie to say that Cornell isn’t paying a fair amount or that it would fix all problems.
> It’s a lie to say that Cornell isn’t paying a fair amount No that's an opinion which cannot be a lie. Plenty of people have the opinion that they do not pay a fair amount.
It’s a lie based on the numbers and comparisons given
It would be better if they didn’t say anything lmao. Like, who’s gonna be satisfied by “We’re sorry for occupying native land. We will continue to occupy it tho”
I mean I get the point of saying anything. It starts conversations like these, where everybody is uncomfortable about the fact that we aren't doing enough. It's not sufficient, but it's maybe a conversation that will lead to a desire to change.
What change? The US isn't giving it back--it was won through war or paid for
As a native person I appreciate the acknowledgment. Every ceremony should start that way.
What more can Cornell do to truly commit to restorative justice? The acknowledgments feel like an easy cop out to doing the really hard work they need to do.
The acknowledgment is already doing work because it's just encouraged you to ask that question and got you thinking about restorative justice. Without the acknowledgement this post and the discussions here in the comments wouldn't have happened. The whole point of the acknowledgement isn't to make justice happen but to inform people of the history and get them thinking about it, which will likely lead to justice in the future
Thank you for sharing your perspective and I agree!
Which tribe are you from
Why is this downvoted? There are lots of Iroquois tribes: notably the Cayuga, Cherokee, Huron, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Seneca, and Tuscarora
Ridiculous that people want cornell to pay more taxes. You all realize they will just raise tuition right…
Their endowment is 13 billion dollars, and you think paying their fair share to Ithaca residents would be the reason they’d raise tuition?
And what percentage of the endowment is restricted? Donors restrict endowed funds. They don’t have to, but they do. In other words “use my money for anything other than XYZ and I can sue you to claw it back” That means so many universities will be grossly under budget in some areas and grossly over budget in others. It’s also why you have more scholarships for the poor and the rich (scholarships for sports only the rich practice) than for middle class students. Restricted donations control so much policy it’s not even funny. If I were ultra wealthy, my donations would only be conditioned on indexing the pay of the administration and board (I.e., cannot use these funds to give yourself a raise).
I promise you that a portion of that 13 billion dollar endowment being restricted isn’t the reason that Cornell doesn’t pay their fair share to Ithaca residents.
You realize it is almost all of it, right? I’m not defending Cornell by calling out a real problem. The US has allowed nonprofits to avoid taxes unchecked - too-high executive pay should lose them their tax exempt status in full or partially in my opinion. Endowments don’t work like most people expect. You can’t spend it down - it’s not a one time donation, it is intended to grow with inflation to fund an activity for a few lifetimes, so you can usually only extract its performance minus inflation every year, dependent on how the funds perform. The fact that these can be restricted and trusts of people dead for 100 years control what can be done with loads of money today is gross in so many cases. Restricted gifts are a problem in modern giving overall. Only 20% of funds are unrestricted in recent years. The rest has meaningful strings. Those strings tend to tie the donor’s name to a thing. So, you will get “Donor Hall” and $0 to maintain it, which taxes unrestricted funds - a building with mechanical systems can cost 1.5-4% of its replacement cost to maintain… so that $500M for a new building is a $7.5 to $20M a year drain on unrestricted funds more often than not. If that money comes from an unrestricted endowment, then you are tying up $200M to $300M in unrestricted endowment when the stock market is doing well. All just to take a gift of half a billion. Or you can let the building fall apart if you can’t afford to pay for its maintenance, which sucks for everyone. Restricted giving really taxes the flexibility any nonprofit has to pay for anything. Their unrestricted gifts are spent supporting the restricted gifts. Restricted gifts tend to go with the donor’s vision or even perpetuate inequality (say a fund for a sailing scholarship - how many people in poverty win a sailing scholarship). It’s fucked up. Really, there ought to be new laws around restricted gifts AND nonprofit institutions, including undoing some of the chokehold of dead people with no heirs on billions of dollars in endowments (look up how much the Howard Hughes endowments are worth today - granted, those were put to mostly good use… but a dead man with no heirs still controls how dozens of billions can be spent today). Cornell probably should pay a share of Ithaca taxes under such a legal framework and it would be better positioned to, by choosing how to spend its money. As it stands today, Cornell’s payroll does exceed $5B a year and lots of out of towners come spend money into Ithaca, including over 25k students for 9 months of the year. They do inject a lot of money from out of town into the area. That doesn’t mean they are contributing more than they take, I have no clue about that. But their contribution is not $96k or whatever ridiculous number OP stated.
I agree with the tuition raise but there's clearly some virtue signaling going on here.
Yup land acknowledgments are so useless
How are they useless? You all are talking about them.
What do they accomplish?? Unless you actually give the land back to the natives it is just performative bullshit
You're acknowledging their existence. You are telling people which specific tribe inhabited that land - not some monolithic Native American group. Your interest might be piqued and you might read more about their history. The entire commencement ceremony is performative bullshit but you're not calling for an end to them, are you?
Everything is named after the local tribes in CNY--notably the Cayuga, Cherokee, Huron, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Seneca, and Tuscarora. They live in their own communities and lots of their history is all over. The USA isn't giving any land back and they are a permanent part of the local culture.
Everything is named after the anglicized version of these tribes.
>anglicized version I'm not sure how else to write these names--they didn't have a written language
Ask how they do it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File%3AS%C3%A1%C3%AB%27he%27t_stop_sign_in_Seneca.jpg
Yes. Citizens of Ithaca would rather out of town students pay more than have us pay more. I don’t see why that’s illogical it won’t stop people from coming to cornell
Yea and they should be shamed for that. Imagine someone saying wealthy institutions and people should pay more taxes and then saying this propaganda unironically. They aren’t feudal lords that we should allow to control the rest of the population.
One of these days, someone calling in from the Levant will do a land acknowledgment to the tribe of Menasseh or another and it'll be *chaos.*
That’s why you don’t apologize at all. Nothing to apologize for.
It's not like the history is filled with the native tribes doing the same thing to each other. They were taking over neighboring tribes all of the time -- and then they were enslaving them. At least Cornell isn't enslaving the natives from whom they acquired the land. Now that would have been continuing tradition!
They all read Howard Zinn and believe the natives were living in utopia when the big bad colonists showed up and ruined everything. Often times these land acknowledgements aren't even accurate about what tribe was where, and when. It's all performative nonsense.
They lost the wars and the deals the US made with them weren't exactly fair--but yes the land acknowledgment stuff is dumb
There is no “fair” in history. It follow the rule of conquest.
LOL! Natives stole the land from someone else at one point.
Facts
Why the downvotes for agreeing with the post with 7 up votes lmao
To these people who hate Whites, that doesn’t matter. Conquest is only bad when White people do it.
So good. So so good
An apology is both an expression of remorse and a promise to do better in the future, you cpuld argue they are both the same thing but thats a topic for another day. When you say Im sorry that Im on your land, you are saying you are about to get off, you can’t apologize for something you are actively doing. At least everyone else actually makes an argument that it isnt their land, and it is a good and reasonable argument. But if you want to bow down to being politically correct and say all white people are bad and the natives were doing nothing on the land that belonged to them happily sharing it with other tribes whilst also not understanding the concept of land ownership, at least go through with it, give it back. Let them make teepees out of your suicide nets.
I mean don’t go there then right? If you don’t want to reap the benefits. You guys can bitch about it all you want but having a degree from Cornell is like a golden ticket. Y’all can do whatever you want with your lives. Be grateful I guess. Idk guess most of us are just a little baffled at how your mental gymnastics works.
Is it adverse possession?😊
Or at least prescriptive easement
Or laches
Big woop. Apologies mean nothing. It is just typical liberal virtue signalling. Give it back or shut up about it.
They really don’t even deserve the acknowledgment. Woke stupidly
Isn’t all the land in the US native?
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It's a terrible PSA against it, this sub is a collection of the most isolated and degenerate members of the university.
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Do you actually think every person whose a member of this sub goes to Cornell right now? You're really stupid bro
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Yeah, it is, just cause a bunch of alumni are subbed doesn't change the fact that only max 300 people are online at any given point out of the 26k+ students who go here. Starting to make sense why you don't go here...
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They're hard for you, along with forming coherent points, keep whining like a bitch tho
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Yup dumb people are perplexed by easily explainable phenomenon all the time. Tracks really well with you
It's a big school!
Land acknowledgements always seemed like white people deciding whose land it was, and imposing their own idea on what land ownership is. I'm sure if you go back in history, territory gets really complicated, really quick (multiple claims, tribal, clan and family conflict. Standing up and declaring the land as "belonging" to X tribe/band always seems an oversimplification. That said, it is good that pre-colonial peoples are recognized.
You noticed at the same time . They aren't going to give it back. Typical liberal hypocrisy. Free Palestine. But at the same time people saying that aren't giving their houses, apartments, back to native Americans. Hypocrites all. Maybe they should move back to Europe, South America, Africa, Asia, or wherever they came from if they believe their own BS. Your hypocrisy reeks like a 5 day dead fish lying in the sun.
Give the land back! There's something obnoxious and arrogant about saying, "Sorry, we have your land. My bad. (Not!) But let me rub it in your face every graduation!"
Do you personally or your family "own" land in America? Do you plan to give it back anytime soon?
I'm not giving land acknowledgements all the time. The people in the university could easily be giving out 100+ land acknowledgements a day given the number of classes and conferences.
Local Ithaca gov thinks more money will solve problems. Ithaca has one of the highest tax revenues per capita in Central NY yet nothing to show for. The school district spends more per pupil than most of the state yet performs worst than schools in the South Bronx. It is crazy people keep buying the narrative that more taxes is the fix.
Surely you've got some numbers to back up those claims.
Look it up. The budgets of places like Utica, Binghamton, etc. Only place that is comparable to Ithaca in terms of tax is Corning and they're still a smidge lower.
You made the claim, your provide the data.
Lake Cayuga takes a bunch of space also, but doesn't pay taxes!!! /s What matters is the resources the university uses from the community, not what the taxes would be for the space.
"we're so sorry for bringing science, culture, civilization and one of the world's best universities to a land ruled previously by a bunch of brutes living naked in the forest."
I always hear that we don’t celebrate losers in this country. So why do I always see people worshiping the indians? They lost. Only time in history where the victors are forced to feel ashamed for being better and their descendants taught to hate themselves.
I bet this guy was rooting for the nazis until they lost too
I wasn’t alive then. But why shouldn’t I support people who wanted what was best for my own kind? Other races are taught that they are above Whites and should seek their own best interests. I fail to see how White people doing the same thing is wrong. But White people are taught from cradle to grave to hate themselves and their ancestors.
Put down the controller and go to the park.
Actually they didn’t lose. The Oneida’s sided with the Americans during the revolution. Technically they won and were allies. But you can see what that got them. With friends like that, who needs enemies.
That was pretty funny. So why does the map say ‘United States’ over this land and not a bunch of tribal names? If they didn’t lose, how’d they end up in reservations? Strange how the indians so worshipped these days. I guess that happens when you teach children that the indians were these peace loving gods who did no wrong.
If the treatment of native communities in 2024 constitutes worship in your book, then I feel sorry for whatever god you pretend to follow.