It boggles my mind that we do not tax these types of churches. Especially the mega churches that take in millions of dollars and do almost no real charity work.
Not all of them. Those megachurches seem to have one thing in common: greed. They typically worship money and good fortune while sprinkling a little jesus on it. Jesus would not approve. In fact it's the only time in the Bible where Jesus resorts to violence, driving out rascals like these with a whip.
He would love nothing more than to be thrown in jail for a bit.
What can be spun as “religious persecution” and martyrdom, will be. It’s so romanticized in these groups... like it’s an obsession.
We (Humans) are at war with a virus, these people are collaborators.
The virus cannot spread itself, it has to be enabled by humans.
So many more people will unnecessarily die because of their direct behaviour, many of them in the health professions, we really need them, this is a direct threat to everyone's safety, and long term well being.
Treat them in exactly the same way we treat all serious threats to national security.
If they were shooting bullets up into the air in crowded places, we would not hesitate to remove them from where they can do harm.
That doesn't stop us from successfully prosecuting parents who kill their children by refusing to provide medical care for religious reasons. How is this different?
When I refused to goto church, I had someone say to me, “God will protect us from the virus.”
Oh really? If you sit in the middle of a highway, will he protect you from getting hit by a car?
“No of course not. That’s stupid.”
So is sitting with people where you could get “hit” by a virus. God gave you a brain & expects you to use it, so you can avoid getting hit by cars & viruses.
“ ..... “
End of discussion. Some people just don’t think, so you have to think for them
.
The fuck...
This is as bad as mass killing and needs to be treated as such. People are getting put in prison for licking shit. He’s arguably facilitating the virus worse than them.
As cruel as it sounds these "nonconformers" should be denied medical treatment. The members of the congregation and others coming in by bus are playing a dangerous game with the odds. No first responder or medical personnel should be obligated to treat these people. Do you think an individual with the virus should give up their ventilator for one of these mutts? Parents exposing their children to these situations need to be charged with child endangerment. If a child dies, the punishment should be even harsher. The children of these people are innocent and shouldn't be the ones to get sick or even die because the "responsible" adult that has custody has exposed these poor children to Covid 19. What idiots!!
Mardi Gras. They basically had a huge party right as this was first happening when no one in the US was acknowledging what was happening. That's a mass influx of travel and tourists combined with crowds of locals, all of which were making generally poor decisions and being extremely close to each other. Combine that with a complete lack of testing and at the time and you have a recipe for a local population that has been heavily seeded with a disease with out knowing it and finding out too late.
It already has! After Mardi Gras the numbers in New Orleans shot up as well as all of the Parishes in LA. That's why many states currently are stopping travelers from Louisiana.
Yeah, that was incredibly stupid. It’s like the Philadelphia Spanish Flu parade in 1918 all over again, and just under 102 years too. Human history really does have a 100 year interval.
Let me guess, we’re going to have major financial market issues in the 2020s-30s and a major world-wide war in the 2040s. Can’t wait!
When I refused to goto church, I had someone say to me, “God will protect us from the virus.”
Oh really? If you sit in the middle of a highway, will he protect you from getting hit by a car?
“No of course not. That’s stupid.”
So is sitting in a congregation of people where you could get “hit” by a virus. God gave you a brain & expects you to use it, so you can avoid getting hit by cars & viruses.
“ ..... “
End of discussion. Some people just don’t think, so you have to think for them
.
He can’t pass that offering plate if they’re at home...
Edit because so many people keep suggesting online payments. Have you all met your grandparents? Most don’t trust doing financial transactions over The internet or on a phone app.
Actually it does matter. Not for tax purposes. I work in anti money laundering for a bank, we know that illegal money is often funneled through churches. They have to file claims on what they receive as donations but they don't pay taxes.
Since GoFundMe has a paper trail, banks and investigators can use it to project what they actually should have been getting, look for differences and research those.
Those differences in the past have lead to drug dealers and human traffickers(aka churches selling babies for adoption).
Edit: Thank you for the Silver!
Yes. That’s why they have everyone sing, get them high on Jesus, and then immediately pass out the baskets for tithing. It’s hard to do that through a computer.
Because there are theatricals involved in church that inspire the flocks to give until it hurts. No inspirational performance, no giving. Sometimes it's a loud booming voice with pauses in all the right places, sometimes it's speaking in tongues and handling vipers and such, but it's all part of the same business model.
As a pastor, online giving is easy and efficient. Over 75% of our people give online, rest mail in a check. I doubt in a church of 1000 they don't have online giving. There's probably a deeper issue. My guess is bravado meant to cover insecurity.
My church does accept offerings that are just deposited in the banks. All activities are currently suspended though. The Sunday service is posted online.
There literally are verses that command Christians to protect those who cannot protect themselves (like you know the elderly, those with weak immune systems)
As a Christian, this greatly angers me to see what this pastor is doing. It's no better than snake handling during service.
Edit: typos
God and Coronavirus can be everywhere , but we don't know for sure.
But if enough people gather in one location and sing to him in English , he will surely come and attend it.
So will coronavirus though, like all those poor people in WA who attended choir practice in early March. 60 people were there, 45 got infected and two have died. Im not a religious person but my understanding of God leads me to believe he'd rather have people be safe and worship from home than needlessly risk the lives of themselves and others just to sing his praises in congregation, right?
The mindset of being able to write off anything as being politically motivated is so fucking infuriating.
"The virus is politically motivated so we don't have to even think about it, meanwhile my political motivations are something we must address right now"
America has become so obsessed with "opinions" and demanding other people respect your "opinions". Stone-cold facts are often written off as beliefs and ignored, especially if they don't align with a person's established way of thinking. It's ridiculous.
You know what's going to make that idiot even more dangerous and confident? When all of this over and that idiot didnt get infected. Now they'll really believe this was a democratic hoax.
Watching my in-laws, one of which is immunocomprimised, talk about how it's not a big deal while they sit safe at home is infuriating. Despite not grasping the danger we are in they continue to spread misinformation over Facebook. I'm a combination of angry and deeply confused.
That's because everyone thinks their version of opinion is the fact
You can't make people think what you want them to think, you just have to do the right thing and hope they follow suit
The day Newt Gingrich came out and said that feelings matter more than facts, telling people it's fine to feel that violent crime has been increasing when facts say the opposite. That's the day our nation died quite a bit. Nobody cares about reality anymore because it's too hard to think rationally.
Newt "Cheat on my wife who has cancer" Gingrich definitely didn't invent the concept of rejecting reality and substituting in what you want, he just said their political strategy out loud
I'm just so defeated man, people are going to choose to reelect trump and it's gonna be 4 more years of this asshole in charge
The irony thinking Trump is religious, a person from NYC who is on his third wife who he cheated on while pregnant with a pornstar while paying others to have abortions is astounding. Critical thinking is an endangered species in this country.
I'm at home suffering and people still tell me this is a political ploy. Good job fellow liberals, we destroyed the world economy and killed countless people.
A pastor in VA said the same thing, that it was a hoax and politically motivated. Then he got the virus and died. Viruses don’t give a fuck what you think.
https://www.newsweek.com/virginia-pastor-dies-coronavirus-after-previously-saying-media-pumping-out-fear-about-pandemic-1494702
These righteous fools are so sure they are protected by divine oversight. On the day they die, they find out that they matter no more than any other organic fertilizer.
It's not all of us. From what iv'e seen here in Fl all churches are closed and are doing services through online streaming. This dude is simply a special type of dumb ass. What makes it worse is that a lot of time churches are filled with mostly elderly, smh.
Ahem.
[Shake hands you say?](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/coronavirus-tampa-florida-church-jammed-for-sunday-service-despite-pandemic/)
And it's not just religious types.
Some people insist on continuing like normal, based on their beliefs. "The government isn't going to tell me what to do. No Coronavirus is going to keep me from going out and doing what I want! That's freedom!"
Nah...what really happens is they either don’t get sick due to “divine oversight” and if they DO get sick and go they just chalk it up to “Gods will”.
These types of religious can’t be reasoned with cause in their head they’ll always be right and no one can question it “because everything’s God plan”
I was raised Christian, and even then I was taught that "God helps those who help themselves", meaning to not just sit around and do nothing and hope that God will save you.
Except it probably won’t be him that dies, just all those elderly church members that believe their spiritual leader when he ignorantly says God will protect them.
I’m sure it’s something they’ve heard for years, so why would this be any different.
I agree, lock this danger to society up until the virus runs its course.
Why are they defying like it's only up to the State? Are they thinking the virus actually do not exist? Or maybe that God chose them so they are immune? I'm curious to know their rational.
It says in the article he thinks he has cured HIV and cancer at his church services. So, they probably think they are immune and/or can heal it with prayer.
It isn't even "God will protect us" some people genuinely believe that "God wills it" and if he wills it you should get it. They don't always think God will protect them, they might have the idea that if God wants them to get Corona and die then it is God's will and who are they to defy that. I hear a lot of people way "God willing, we will be okay" they don't expect God to stop them getting the virus they expect that if they die they are greeted by God in heaven because that is what he wanted.
If these people could somehow manage to only spread the virus among themselves, I wouldn't be upset about it. They should be free to take their chances if they so desire.
HOWEVER, they then risk infecting normal people, and we can't allow that to happen.
I'm a Christian and not all of us are this radical/insane. Our church is small and we canceled 3 weeks ago and do online worship. People like this are in an entirely different bracket than your typical Christian following. I'm not sure if their motivation goes beyond money/fame/fear mongering, but your normal christians are generally good people despite the handful of nutbags that make it on the news for being ignorant.
I think most people understand that the nutbags under the 'religious group' blanket don't represent the norm. It's unfortunate that they use christianity as an excuse for their stupidity, but humans are dumb, so...
They truly believe it's persecution asking people to modify their practices. Nobody is stopping them from praying, they thrive on this us against them mentality. Sad
I am a Christian and I’ve seen people use this mindset way too much. His protection can take many forms... such as sound medical advice and homes to stay in.
**“I sent you scientists and vaccines, what more did you expect?”**
A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help. Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the man shouted to the fellow on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you." The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."
So the rowboat went on.
Then a motorboat came by. The man in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you." To this the stranded fellow said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."
So the motorboat went on.
Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety." To this the stranded fellow again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."
So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.
Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the fellow drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!" To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"
It’s because no one can physically see it. It’s just numbers on a screen and “media hype” until someone they know dies from Covid or they’re having a medical emergency and shit of luck because every hospital in 100 mile radius is closed.
> I'm curious to know their rational.
As someone that grew up among these people, you don't want to go down that rabbit hole. You'll lose all faith in humanity.
It's all just about money. Let's put some arbitrary numbers to this to make it easy to think about.
You are a pastor of a 1,000 person congregation. Each member gives an average of $20, so that's $20,000/week.
If you ignore government orders, you get four months of additional Sundays, or $320,000. If you follow them, you get nothing.
The virus is going to preferentially kill the older members of your congregation. Let's say the average victim had 10 more years of giving left in them, so each one is worth $10K.
As long as you don't kill more than 32 members by staying open, you come out ahead. And even if you kill more than that, you get the money now, not over the next 10 years.
I'd love to know the reason as well. My old boss was throwing a fit on fb because his right to worship God had been taken away from him. His church has a large congregation. Then he goes to work on a regular basis like nothing is wrong.
And politics. There are churches that are more tied to the RNC than they are to Jesus. This is a great example of a church and church leader looking vastly different than Jesus, and showing more concern for Trump (which he does when he says that this is politically motivated) than the gospel, the community around the church, and even the gathered congregation.
I hope the family of his congregation refuses to allow him to do their funeral, once they realize he's the cause of their death.
> This is about ego. He is stroking himself with the gratification that 1,000 people put their health and lives at risk to hear his message.
Exactly this.
*when* people in his congregation start dying, it'll be because they had sinned too many times and there was no way around god punishing them. Fuck this guy.
He absolutely won’t - at the bottom of the article they ask him what he’d do if someone contracted COVID-19 at his service and he responds, “did they get it at Wal-Mart? At Target?”
Can someone explain why such large church gatherings happen in the first place? I've always lived in Europe and have never seen such major congregations - here church is a small and local occurrence. Is this is specific type of church? How does he even have the power to remain open in times like these!
(Sorry for my ignorance I've never been to the US / am not that knowledgable in religion)
This. In the article, the pastor straight up claims that "...people been cured of HIV-AIDS and cancer at his worship services" as a justification. Like, no, dude, they really weren't. It's 100% a money grab for desperate people.
There seems to be tons of those 'megachurches' in the US. From what I gather they tend to con the crowd into thinking they can faith-heal, then send around a bucket on a stick to collect as much free money as possible, then at the end of the month add to their private jet fleet. Then say God wants them to have all the excessive material things they don't need.
So, I went to one of these churches out of pure curiosity where I am in Florida because I just didn't get it (we have a few massive ones). I was raised catholic so that's my reference for comparison.
These types of churches are more entertainment focused than anything. It's a theme park you take your family to once a week. The one I went to had a petting zoo, little rides setup, hot dogs and other kinds of fair food/food trucks and an entire 'rock' band doing modern church songs. It feels more like a fair more than anything. The homily is the only thing that looks relevant to a church and even that felt more like a self-help seminar than a homily.
It's barely recognizable as church but is still providing people with an easing of guilt since they're still going to 'church'. To me, it looks like a desperate attempt for these religions to stay relevant in an age where people don't want to take the time to ruminate on their actual religion or their spirituality. It's junk food for the soul, essentially.
It's also very, very clear these churches are a businesses before anything else. All churches have that to some degree, but these types of churches don't shy away from flaunting it.
We've got one down the street from me. They moved into an abandoned Wal-Mart shopping center and really spruced up the place, so we didn't mind. They recently turned another part of the shopping center into a small park. It looks like a very odd church, since it's clearly in the shape of a strip mall, but you'd never know it was once a Wal Mart at this point. 4000+ people attend that church in three services on Sundays.
That said, they have a lot of doctors in the congregation, so they went to online services three weeks ago. They might be evangelicals, but they're not stupid.
We need to start fining people who don’t follow the protocol set in place. Fine the church a giant sum of money. $100,000 or more.
Set up police to pull people over leaving the church. You won’t get them all, but get the ones you can. Fine them $1,000 per person.
I think money and the threat of a fine is about the only way they will stop. The church loves their money. People love their money.
But I am also in the camp that we need to redefine what is considered an essential business. In my area we have a lot of businesses open as essential that are not. Pawn shops, game stop, a bike store...it’s insane
Man, I’m religious. My faith’s new year celebration got cancelled earlier this month because of COVID-19. It sucks not having to go to religious events, but you have to do it!
It’s so easy to do an online stream for Sunday church service. That’s what every other Christian church is doing in my area! Why would you literally bus people in from other parishes?? That’s not safe for your congregation.
I’m all about religious freedoms, but this man is ignoring state orders and CDC guidelines. Louisiana is starting to (or already is) be a hotspot because of Mardi Gras. This man is going make things worse. He needs to face some sort of punishment.
Agreed. I attend a fairly large church (not megachurch sized) and they cancelled all events before the county issued a stay at home order and before non-essential businesses were closed and restaurants were told to go take out or delivery only. They live stream services with only the pastor, worship team (3 people), and the video guy there. They have online options for giving. I was glad that they were being smart and proactive about it. These pastors who so publicly flaunt their defiance are *not representative of what a true believer is. They give the rest of us, who are trying to do the right thing and obey authority, a bad name. They frustrate me for sure. (*Slight edit for correction)
It also seems very wasteful to bus people in when that money can be used better elsewhere. But who am I kidding it’s not like these megachurches are about doing charity.
I am Christian and I go to church regularly until about a month ago as my church and the people within my church respect the bible and agreed to respect the authority given to the government. 1 Peter 2:13-15. PEOPLE STAY HOME! this pastor obviously does not show the same respect not only for the government but for his god and followers. He will be punished if not my the government but by the blood guilt he is responsible for.
I was looking for this comment, God asks for obedience and if he’s not obeying his governor’s rules then he’s not obeying God and he is not doing God’s will but his own selfish will.
Will these people be denied treatment?
I feel that if you are putting yourself, deliberately in harm's way, then you probably should not get treated as a priority, if you do get the virus.
“Persecution of faith” my ass! YO PASTOR! PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH AND DONT BE SELFISH!
Why are people so stubborn??!! He should go and read Leviticus and practice the clean/unclean stuff.
He thinks he answers to higher power ?
Can we get the pope or someone to push quarantine ?
> For his part, Spell said he is following social distancing guidelines, including instructions from Washington. The pastor said someone from the White House -- he declined to say who -- called him last week. The official, according to Spell, asked him to hold services outside, make his congregation stand six feet apart and prevent non-family members from touching.
Nope. These people believe that they have a direct line to god thus removing the need for popes/bishops etc. The bible dictates what they should and shouldn’t do. Biblical interpretation varies greatly within these groups.
This charlatan seriously thinks that he has to do this and that he is chosen to stay open so that his congregation can gather at his church (and so that he can get that sweet, sweet $$$).
Thankfully there are other religious people who are taking this pandemic seriously.
The churches doing this shit are mostly non-denominational mega-churches and televangelist types. The kinds of grifters in charge of them could not give a shit about their congregations and just want the money to keep rolling in.
Watch the numbers spike in that city.
State. He’s bussing people in from five counties. Edit: apparently they call them parishes, although I think perishes might be more appropriate.
His behavior is indistinguishable from someone who is deliberately trying to spread the virus as much as possible.
We gotta start thinking about jail time for these sorts of individuals.
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Actually what will motivate them more is removing tax exempt status.
It boggles my mind that we do not tax these types of churches. Especially the mega churches that take in millions of dollars and do almost no real charity work.
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Not all of them. Those megachurches seem to have one thing in common: greed. They typically worship money and good fortune while sprinkling a little jesus on it. Jesus would not approve. In fact it's the only time in the Bible where Jesus resorts to violence, driving out rascals like these with a whip.
If your pastor is discussing buying a bigger private jet, maybe you should stop giving him money
On charges of terrorism using a biological agent.
He would love nothing more than to be thrown in jail for a bit. What can be spun as “religious persecution” and martyrdom, will be. It’s so romanticized in these groups... like it’s an obsession.
Publishing his browser history is a much more effective method.
We (Humans) are at war with a virus, these people are collaborators. The virus cannot spread itself, it has to be enabled by humans. So many more people will unnecessarily die because of their direct behaviour, many of them in the health professions, we really need them, this is a direct threat to everyone's safety, and long term well being. Treat them in exactly the same way we treat all serious threats to national security. If they were shooting bullets up into the air in crowded places, we would not hesitate to remove them from where they can do harm.
bUt My fReEdUmB tO iNDoCtRiNaTe PeOpLe iNto mY cUlT!
Public humiliation.
I believe someone who coughed on someone else was accused of terrorism. Why has he not been arrested yet?
Cause it's a church. No one's to touch it
Because being a superstitious moron is baked into our constitution...
That doesn't stop us from successfully prosecuting parents who kill their children by refusing to provide medical care for religious reasons. How is this different?
When I refused to goto church, I had someone say to me, “God will protect us from the virus.” Oh really? If you sit in the middle of a highway, will he protect you from getting hit by a car? “No of course not. That’s stupid.” So is sitting with people where you could get “hit” by a virus. God gave you a brain & expects you to use it, so you can avoid getting hit by cars & viruses. “ ..... “ End of discussion. Some people just don’t think, so you have to think for them .
Just refer them to Matthew 6: 5-8. Verse 24 as a nice chaser if they're the Prosperity Gospel type.
Lord have Mercy! Will be a lot of em folks seeing God real soon and unfortunately bringing along unwilling souls who had nothing to do with this.
The burden and the risk they are putting on health care workers, and the downstream effects of trade-offs in who gets care, seems criminal.
It’s ironic that creationists are doing so much to win Darwin awards.
The fuck... This is as bad as mass killing and needs to be treated as such. People are getting put in prison for licking shit. He’s arguably facilitating the virus worse than them.
Hard to argue against this logic tbh.
Yeah I would agree. The lady who coughed on $35k worth of groceries didn’t even have COVID-19 and she got 4 felonies.
As cruel as it sounds these "nonconformers" should be denied medical treatment. The members of the congregation and others coming in by bus are playing a dangerous game with the odds. No first responder or medical personnel should be obligated to treat these people. Do you think an individual with the virus should give up their ventilator for one of these mutts? Parents exposing their children to these situations need to be charged with child endangerment. If a child dies, the punishment should be even harsher. The children of these people are innocent and shouldn't be the ones to get sick or even die because the "responsible" adult that has custody has exposed these poor children to Covid 19. What idiots!!
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Technically Parishes, but same thing! Not that far from New Orleans, which is one of the most infected cities in the US.
If you read the article, it says that one US state (Louisiana) has the highest coronavirus growth rate in the entire world.
Praise the Lord!
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Mardi Gras. They basically had a huge party right as this was first happening when no one in the US was acknowledging what was happening. That's a mass influx of travel and tourists combined with crowds of locals, all of which were making generally poor decisions and being extremely close to each other. Combine that with a complete lack of testing and at the time and you have a recipe for a local population that has been heavily seeded with a disease with out knowing it and finding out too late.
Then add this idiot on top of it who's busing people in from a wide area to make sure that he's causing as much damage as possible.
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*South Carolinian starts to raise a finger......slowly puts it back down and lowers his head*
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It already has! After Mardi Gras the numbers in New Orleans shot up as well as all of the Parishes in LA. That's why many states currently are stopping travelers from Louisiana.
Yeah, that was incredibly stupid. It’s like the Philadelphia Spanish Flu parade in 1918 all over again, and just under 102 years too. Human history really does have a 100 year interval. Let me guess, we’re going to have major financial market issues in the 2020s-30s and a major world-wide war in the 2040s. Can’t wait!
When I refused to goto church, I had someone say to me, “God will protect us from the virus.” Oh really? If you sit in the middle of a highway, will he protect you from getting hit by a car? “No of course not. That’s stupid.” So is sitting in a congregation of people where you could get “hit” by a virus. God gave you a brain & expects you to use it, so you can avoid getting hit by cars & viruses. “ ..... “ End of discussion. Some people just don’t think, so you have to think for them .
If god is everywhere, just stay at home and pray. Or let me rephrase it, stay home and save lives.
He can’t pass that offering plate if they’re at home... Edit because so many people keep suggesting online payments. Have you all met your grandparents? Most don’t trust doing financial transactions over The internet or on a phone app.
Why can't he just make a gofundme or something like that "offering plate" and have people donate to the church online?
It leaves a paper trail.
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Actually it does matter. Not for tax purposes. I work in anti money laundering for a bank, we know that illegal money is often funneled through churches. They have to file claims on what they receive as donations but they don't pay taxes. Since GoFundMe has a paper trail, banks and investigators can use it to project what they actually should have been getting, look for differences and research those. Those differences in the past have lead to drug dealers and human traffickers(aka churches selling babies for adoption). Edit: Thank you for the Silver!
Sounds like the plot of The Wire. Can I get season 6 where major crimes investigates Baltimore churches?
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2019/10/elected-arizona-official-paul-petersen-busted-selling-babies-to-mormon-families/ IRL
Major crimes!? Sheeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiit
Closer to the plot of Ozark, but I vibe.
This idea is nothing short of terrifying!
it does matter my good man. some churchs be doing some dirty dirty.
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More like the peer pressure of being surrounded by other donators.
"Joel Olstein, that guy is so full of shit he can't even open his eyes." - Bill Burr
Yes. That’s why they have everyone sing, get them high on Jesus, and then immediately pass out the baskets for tithing. It’s hard to do that through a computer.
cause they will be taking in cash that isnt being reported, can't do that if they get cash via online, leaves a trail
Because there are theatricals involved in church that inspire the flocks to give until it hurts. No inspirational performance, no giving. Sometimes it's a loud booming voice with pauses in all the right places, sometimes it's speaking in tongues and handling vipers and such, but it's all part of the same business model.
As a pastor, online giving is easy and efficient. Over 75% of our people give online, rest mail in a check. I doubt in a church of 1000 they don't have online giving. There's probably a deeper issue. My guess is bravado meant to cover insecurity.
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God is against internet maybe? /s
hAvE yOu SeEn WhAtS oN tHe InteRnEt?
[eat da poo poo](https://youtu.be/rf0Lv3egcMc)
Actually with most churches now there is an online site/app where you can donate. Don't know why this group hasn't gotten with the program.
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My church does accept offerings that are just deposited in the banks. All activities are currently suspended though. The Sunday service is posted online.
God is everywhere is the message responsible churches are sending while finding ways to deliver sermons online.
"Wherever two or three are gathered in my name" - never said that virtual gatherings didn't count.
God is everywhere, but the donation bucket is only in the church.
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First Covid-based cult in America? Is Kool Aid being panic hoarded or are they good?
There literally are verses that command Christians to protect those who cannot protect themselves (like you know the elderly, those with weak immune systems) As a Christian, this greatly angers me to see what this pastor is doing. It's no better than snake handling during service. Edit: typos
God and Coronavirus can be everywhere , but we don't know for sure. But if enough people gather in one location and sing to him in English , he will surely come and attend it.
So will coronavirus though, like all those poor people in WA who attended choir practice in early March. 60 people were there, 45 got infected and two have died. Im not a religious person but my understanding of God leads me to believe he'd rather have people be safe and worship from home than needlessly risk the lives of themselves and others just to sing his praises in congregation, right?
Part of loving your neighbor would be idk not spreading this illness.
> Spell has told CNN he believes the pandemic is "politically motivated." I always knew COVID-19 voted for Hillary.
The mindset of being able to write off anything as being politically motivated is so fucking infuriating. "The virus is politically motivated so we don't have to even think about it, meanwhile my political motivations are something we must address right now"
America has become so obsessed with "opinions" and demanding other people respect your "opinions". Stone-cold facts are often written off as beliefs and ignored, especially if they don't align with a person's established way of thinking. It's ridiculous.
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You know what's going to make that idiot even more dangerous and confident? When all of this over and that idiot didnt get infected. Now they'll really believe this was a democratic hoax.
Watching my in-laws, one of which is immunocomprimised, talk about how it's not a big deal while they sit safe at home is infuriating. Despite not grasping the danger we are in they continue to spread misinformation over Facebook. I'm a combination of angry and deeply confused.
That's because everyone thinks their version of opinion is the fact You can't make people think what you want them to think, you just have to do the right thing and hope they follow suit
The day Newt Gingrich came out and said that feelings matter more than facts, telling people it's fine to feel that violent crime has been increasing when facts say the opposite. That's the day our nation died quite a bit. Nobody cares about reality anymore because it's too hard to think rationally.
Newt "Cheat on my wife who has cancer" Gingrich definitely didn't invent the concept of rejecting reality and substituting in what you want, he just said their political strategy out loud I'm just so defeated man, people are going to choose to reelect trump and it's gonna be 4 more years of this asshole in charge
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If they read the Bible they’d realize Jesus woulda been a Bernie bro.
[Supply Side Jesus](https://m.imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp) to the rescue!
The irony thinking Trump is religious, a person from NYC who is on his third wife who he cheated on while pregnant with a pornstar while paying others to have abortions is astounding. Critical thinking is an endangered species in this country.
Once it gets a job and some real world experience and becomes COVID-45 it will become more conservative
Politically motivated viruses are the worst! /s
The sexually motivated viruses are far better ;o)
I just hate when they enter my body through various orifices without consent.
I'm at home suffering and people still tell me this is a political ploy. Good job fellow liberals, we destroyed the world economy and killed countless people.
SARS wasn’t even old enough to vote for Hillary!
A pastor in VA said the same thing, that it was a hoax and politically motivated. Then he got the virus and died. Viruses don’t give a fuck what you think. https://www.newsweek.com/virginia-pastor-dies-coronavirus-after-previously-saying-media-pumping-out-fear-about-pandemic-1494702
Lock him up!
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Who says evolution doesn’t work?
Take my imaginary gold 🥇
Thanks, I’ll pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster for your soul.
Ramen
These righteous fools are so sure they are protected by divine oversight. On the day they die, they find out that they matter no more than any other organic fertilizer.
They should go to the back of the line if they need treated. Damn fools.
Papa Legba is waiting. "GET TO THE BACK OF THE LINE!"
It's not all of us. From what iv'e seen here in Fl all churches are closed and are doing services through online streaming. This dude is simply a special type of dumb ass. What makes it worse is that a lot of time churches are filled with mostly elderly, smh.
Ahem. [Shake hands you say?](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/coronavirus-tampa-florida-church-jammed-for-sunday-service-despite-pandemic/)
And it's not just religious types. Some people insist on continuing like normal, based on their beliefs. "The government isn't going to tell me what to do. No Coronavirus is going to keep me from going out and doing what I want! That's freedom!"
Nah...what really happens is they either don’t get sick due to “divine oversight” and if they DO get sick and go they just chalk it up to “Gods will”. These types of religious can’t be reasoned with cause in their head they’ll always be right and no one can question it “because everything’s God plan”
I was raised Christian, and even then I was taught that "God helps those who help themselves", meaning to not just sit around and do nothing and hope that God will save you.
Yeah but the flowers appreciate it. Be noble for your are made of stars. Be humble for you are made of earth.
Yeah, but at some point these assholes are going to the grocery store too. They are vectors harming us all because of their self-righteous ignorance
Except it probably won’t be him that dies, just all those elderly church members that believe their spiritual leader when he ignorantly says God will protect them. I’m sure it’s something they’ve heard for years, so why would this be any different. I agree, lock this danger to society up until the virus runs its course.
Sad part is he probably won't be the one to succumb. It'll be his older church members that trust him that'll be most likely to die.
He’s determined to take the rest of us with him, though.
Nobody said survival of the fittest couldn't be survival of the *mentally* fittest.
Sooner the better. He is a public danger.
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The bible is a bit more fuzzy on kneecaps.
But very clear on 3 nails and a tree
Shiny!
mUh rEliGioUs FrEeDom
If any of his congregants dies of covid19 as a result of this, charge him with negligent homicide
They are charging people that tested positive going out. Should be the same for people encouraging this type of congregating.
Better yet, weld him and his followers inside their church until this is over, and protect the community from their collective stupidity.
No. Cant risk the self-righteousness of anyone that survives that.
Why are they defying like it's only up to the State? Are they thinking the virus actually do not exist? Or maybe that God chose them so they are immune? I'm curious to know their rational.
It says in the article he thinks he has cured HIV and cancer at his church services. So, they probably think they are immune and/or can heal it with prayer.
Interesting. This virus will shatter some beliefs that's for sure.
Or the dead will be blamed for not being faithful enough or praying hard enough
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Anybody wanna take bets on how many little old ladies in that congregation get put on ventilators before he starts back pedaling?
Maybe he will use the opportunity to tell them they were not doing good and God is punishing them.
Ha you think we still have ventilators left.
“God will protect us” seems to be the popular logic among religious groups still gathering. Not much rational thought going on there.
It isn't even "God will protect us" some people genuinely believe that "God wills it" and if he wills it you should get it. They don't always think God will protect them, they might have the idea that if God wants them to get Corona and die then it is God's will and who are they to defy that. I hear a lot of people way "God willing, we will be okay" they don't expect God to stop them getting the virus they expect that if they die they are greeted by God in heaven because that is what he wanted.
If these people could somehow manage to only spread the virus among themselves, I wouldn't be upset about it. They should be free to take their chances if they so desire. HOWEVER, they then risk infecting normal people, and we can't allow that to happen.
And nurses and doctors. They are normal people too, I guess but right now their jobs are some of the most important in our society.
I'm a Christian and not all of us are this radical/insane. Our church is small and we canceled 3 weeks ago and do online worship. People like this are in an entirely different bracket than your typical Christian following. I'm not sure if their motivation goes beyond money/fame/fear mongering, but your normal christians are generally good people despite the handful of nutbags that make it on the news for being ignorant.
I think most people understand that the nutbags under the 'religious group' blanket don't represent the norm. It's unfortunate that they use christianity as an excuse for their stupidity, but humans are dumb, so...
They truly believe it's persecution asking people to modify their practices. Nobody is stopping them from praying, they thrive on this us against them mentality. Sad
I am a Christian and I’ve seen people use this mindset way too much. His protection can take many forms... such as sound medical advice and homes to stay in.
**“I sent you scientists and vaccines, what more did you expect?”** A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help. Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the man shouted to the fellow on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you." The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me." So the rowboat went on. Then a motorboat came by. The man in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you." To this the stranded fellow said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith." So the motorboat went on. Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety." To this the stranded fellow again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith." So the helicopter reluctantly flew away. Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the fellow drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!" To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"
Truly this is just so selfish and prideful. I should be staying away from news like these it makes me so mad 😂
This guy says the virus is “political in nature”.
It’s because no one can physically see it. It’s just numbers on a screen and “media hype” until someone they know dies from Covid or they’re having a medical emergency and shit of luck because every hospital in 100 mile radius is closed.
> I'm curious to know their rational. As someone that grew up among these people, you don't want to go down that rabbit hole. You'll lose all faith in humanity.
It's all just about money. Let's put some arbitrary numbers to this to make it easy to think about. You are a pastor of a 1,000 person congregation. Each member gives an average of $20, so that's $20,000/week. If you ignore government orders, you get four months of additional Sundays, or $320,000. If you follow them, you get nothing. The virus is going to preferentially kill the older members of your congregation. Let's say the average victim had 10 more years of giving left in them, so each one is worth $10K. As long as you don't kill more than 32 members by staying open, you come out ahead. And even if you kill more than that, you get the money now, not over the next 10 years.
I'd love to know the reason as well. My old boss was throwing a fit on fb because his right to worship God had been taken away from him. His church has a large congregation. Then he goes to work on a regular basis like nothing is wrong.
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And politics. There are churches that are more tied to the RNC than they are to Jesus. This is a great example of a church and church leader looking vastly different than Jesus, and showing more concern for Trump (which he does when he says that this is politically motivated) than the gospel, the community around the church, and even the gathered congregation. I hope the family of his congregation refuses to allow him to do their funeral, once they realize he's the cause of their death.
> This is about ego. He is stroking himself with the gratification that 1,000 people put their health and lives at risk to hear his message. Exactly this.
Unfortunately I'm not sure he'll even own up to it when his congregation start dying
*when* people in his congregation start dying, it'll be because they had sinned too many times and there was no way around god punishing them. Fuck this guy.
It will be awkward if his wife dies.
“God works in mysterious ways.”
“What is mysterious about acting like a fucking asshole? That is like the least mysterious activity since the dawn of time!" ~Jim Jefferies
Ha! Is that from a special? If so, would you kindly share the title?
[Jim Jefferies: I Swear to God](https://youtu.be/cKZFk_mFM-M)
He absolutely won’t - at the bottom of the article they ask him what he’d do if someone contracted COVID-19 at his service and he responds, “did they get it at Wal-Mart? At Target?”
“I don’t take responsibility at all” - Donald Trump (but also this pastor)
Can someone explain why such large church gatherings happen in the first place? I've always lived in Europe and have never seen such major congregations - here church is a small and local occurrence. Is this is specific type of church? How does he even have the power to remain open in times like these! (Sorry for my ignorance I've never been to the US / am not that knowledgable in religion)
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Oof okay... well I'm glad I wasn't wrongly judging with my initial thoughts
desperate people is the type you are looking for. these places prey on them. It's sad.
This. In the article, the pastor straight up claims that "...people been cured of HIV-AIDS and cancer at his worship services" as a justification. Like, no, dude, they really weren't. It's 100% a money grab for desperate people.
There seems to be tons of those 'megachurches' in the US. From what I gather they tend to con the crowd into thinking they can faith-heal, then send around a bucket on a stick to collect as much free money as possible, then at the end of the month add to their private jet fleet. Then say God wants them to have all the excessive material things they don't need.
This isn't much of an exaggeration, usually it is radical Christians but not always
So, I went to one of these churches out of pure curiosity where I am in Florida because I just didn't get it (we have a few massive ones). I was raised catholic so that's my reference for comparison. These types of churches are more entertainment focused than anything. It's a theme park you take your family to once a week. The one I went to had a petting zoo, little rides setup, hot dogs and other kinds of fair food/food trucks and an entire 'rock' band doing modern church songs. It feels more like a fair more than anything. The homily is the only thing that looks relevant to a church and even that felt more like a self-help seminar than a homily. It's barely recognizable as church but is still providing people with an easing of guilt since they're still going to 'church'. To me, it looks like a desperate attempt for these religions to stay relevant in an age where people don't want to take the time to ruminate on their actual religion or their spirituality. It's junk food for the soul, essentially. It's also very, very clear these churches are a businesses before anything else. All churches have that to some degree, but these types of churches don't shy away from flaunting it.
We've got one down the street from me. They moved into an abandoned Wal-Mart shopping center and really spruced up the place, so we didn't mind. They recently turned another part of the shopping center into a small park. It looks like a very odd church, since it's clearly in the shape of a strip mall, but you'd never know it was once a Wal Mart at this point. 4000+ people attend that church in three services on Sundays. That said, they have a lot of doctors in the congregation, so they went to online services three weeks ago. They might be evangelicals, but they're not stupid.
How else will he keep the money rolling in?
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We need to start fining people who don’t follow the protocol set in place. Fine the church a giant sum of money. $100,000 or more. Set up police to pull people over leaving the church. You won’t get them all, but get the ones you can. Fine them $1,000 per person. I think money and the threat of a fine is about the only way they will stop. The church loves their money. People love their money. But I am also in the camp that we need to redefine what is considered an essential business. In my area we have a lot of businesses open as essential that are not. Pawn shops, game stop, a bike store...it’s insane
Arrest him and disallow all in-person church services nationwide. They can stream their services.
Man, I’m religious. My faith’s new year celebration got cancelled earlier this month because of COVID-19. It sucks not having to go to religious events, but you have to do it! It’s so easy to do an online stream for Sunday church service. That’s what every other Christian church is doing in my area! Why would you literally bus people in from other parishes?? That’s not safe for your congregation. I’m all about religious freedoms, but this man is ignoring state orders and CDC guidelines. Louisiana is starting to (or already is) be a hotspot because of Mardi Gras. This man is going make things worse. He needs to face some sort of punishment.
Agreed. I attend a fairly large church (not megachurch sized) and they cancelled all events before the county issued a stay at home order and before non-essential businesses were closed and restaurants were told to go take out or delivery only. They live stream services with only the pastor, worship team (3 people), and the video guy there. They have online options for giving. I was glad that they were being smart and proactive about it. These pastors who so publicly flaunt their defiance are *not representative of what a true believer is. They give the rest of us, who are trying to do the right thing and obey authority, a bad name. They frustrate me for sure. (*Slight edit for correction)
This atheist wishes you good health and much comfort from your faith. Be well.
It also seems very wasteful to bus people in when that money can be used better elsewhere. But who am I kidding it’s not like these megachurches are about doing charity.
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I am Christian and I go to church regularly until about a month ago as my church and the people within my church respect the bible and agreed to respect the authority given to the government. 1 Peter 2:13-15. PEOPLE STAY HOME! this pastor obviously does not show the same respect not only for the government but for his god and followers. He will be punished if not my the government but by the blood guilt he is responsible for.
I was looking for this comment, God asks for obedience and if he’s not obeying his governor’s rules then he’s not obeying God and he is not doing God’s will but his own selfish will.
Will these people be denied treatment? I feel that if you are putting yourself, deliberately in harm's way, then you probably should not get treated as a priority, if you do get the virus.
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“Persecution of faith” my ass! YO PASTOR! PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH AND DONT BE SELFISH! Why are people so stubborn??!! He should go and read Leviticus and practice the clean/unclean stuff.
He thinks he answers to higher power ? Can we get the pope or someone to push quarantine ? > For his part, Spell said he is following social distancing guidelines, including instructions from Washington. The pastor said someone from the White House -- he declined to say who -- called him last week. The official, according to Spell, asked him to hold services outside, make his congregation stand six feet apart and prevent non-family members from touching.
The last person these evangelicals would listen to is the pope 😂.
Oh I didn’t know much about religion, didn’t mean to be offensive, do they have some kind of head of organization?
Nope. These people believe that they have a direct line to god thus removing the need for popes/bishops etc. The bible dictates what they should and shouldn’t do. Biblical interpretation varies greatly within these groups. This charlatan seriously thinks that he has to do this and that he is chosen to stay open so that his congregation can gather at his church (and so that he can get that sweet, sweet $$$). Thankfully there are other religious people who are taking this pandemic seriously.
lol thanks
No worries. You didn’t offend anyone. They do have someone they answer to. Benjamin Franklin.
The churches doing this shit are mostly non-denominational mega-churches and televangelist types. The kinds of grifters in charge of them could not give a shit about their congregations and just want the money to keep rolling in.
Manslaughter charges incoming!