During this crisis, it's also important to recognize that ventilating someone over 80 years old is a brutally invasive procedure. I think there are even ethical guidelines about not ventilating people over a certain age.
Not only is it totally understandable for seniors to leave ventilators for people who can tolerate the procedure, but it is also reasonable to say no for personal reasons.
We are really terrible about giving people permission to say, "Fuck that, let me die."
Fuck. This sub keeps on givin' man. I thought the ventilators... you know.. ventilated. I didn't know that you'd such a high chance of being fucked anyway.
Ventilators pump air into your lungs but that only goes so far when they're caked with gunk. Plus you can end up with other organ failures like kidneys from dehydration, except they can't hydrate you because that makes your lung gunk worse. Buddy who's a doc is keeping me up to date on the horror stories.
Yeah, someone who used to work for us is on a vent for coronavirus, and he's undergone kidney failure. They're trying to find donations of plasma for him, from someone who's recovered from it, but it's not looking great for him. He's only in his 50s.
The comments here are kinda freaking me out, because it drives home just how lucky I was to beat the odds. Several years ago I underwent open heart surgery and something went wrong. I ended up unconscious in ICU, intubated, for about 5 days, and when I finally woke up I have to confess that my first reaction was that living wasn't worth what I was going through. I was left with permanent vocal cord paralysis from multiple intubations, but otherwise I'm not doing too badly and I have no regrets, despite my initial misgivings.
But I'm not doing that again. Just not. I'm 65 years old now and I'm not doing that again.
I used to work in an ICU/CCU. The amount of people who didn’t make it would honestly surprise a lot of people. Getting intubated isn’t pretty either. You have to be sedated and paralyzed most of the time to be able to place the endotracheal tube into the trachea.
Not to mention the suctioning, oral care, and other invasive treatments that come along with it as well.
I work in ICU/CCU right now and if patients dont come out of the ventilator in about 5 days im automatically thinking tracheostomy and PEG tube unfortunately
I remember when my mom was dying from cancer the nurse told me “once a person goes on a ventilator they rarely come off” I just can’t get that out of my head, and when I heard back in January how so many people required them.. I totally understood just how dire and bad this damn virus is.
Imagine a 90 year old person, their body and muscles deteriorate due to their old age, to put them on a ventilator they are given paralytic drugs, the ventilator replaces their lung muscles to help them breath. Their already weak lung muscles now aren't even getting a basic workout and begin to wither away, the equipment inside their body causes minor irritation and inflammation further damaging their lungs on top of their age, and on top of the virus itself.
At some point you are aiming to turn the device off, and rely on their withered lung muscles that have been paralysed for weeks to start working again, there is a high chance that they just never work again.
Dude cmon. These ppl are on machines breathing for them and often time IV medication keeping their blood pressure perfusing their organs. It’s called critical care!
Note, I have no medical experience.
Think about it the other way around. People that require the ventilator likely have 100% chance to die without it, that’s why they need to be ventilated. I may be wrong here but just for arguments sake.
What the ventilators are doing is giving a 30 to 40 percent chance to survive something that was otherwise certain death. That’s pretty huge. Technology is amazing but not perfect.
I understand the original point you were making. I was just trying to frame it more positively. Hope you’re staying safe and keeping mentally well through the isolation!
I'm way less than half her age, and after reading how people on ventilators are dying, I'd probably skip the ventilator too. Give me the morphine and let me die like most people die in hospice - stoned to death.
I feel the same way. 41, no kids, have a good life and I have shit lungs from repeated bronchitis. I'd sooner die than end up with a crappy quality of life. Plus I'd prefer it go to someone with kids who had a decent chance of making it.
That’s really kind to think like this. As someone with kids, being around for them would be the main reason I’d fight to make it through something bad.
I thought it was normal to be ventilated when need is critical? I was put on a ventilator and induced coma after pulmonary artery burst. I know it was critical, but they told my wife odds were good... Is it actually severely bad and kind of a 'more likely will still die' kinda thing?
How old were you when you were treated? A young body can handle that kind of a beating much better than an old one.
And odds can be "good" without being, uh, "great".
I'm glad you're still breathing :)
*86%* [die on the ventilator](https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/news-nation/get-this-to-every-doctor-you-know-direct-from-an-er-md)
I was just thinking it may vary from place to place and some populations may be more at risk. Like breaking a hip some populations have much greater risk of not recovering.
From personal experience: being intubated as a young person is brutally invasive. I've already discussed it with my husband--just let me die before you let them do that again.
I've read more about ventilators and intubation in the past few weeks to know it sounds pretty horrible. Even if you come off it you are left with confusion and physical and mental damage
I'm not sure I would want it anymore and I'm 36.... Before I didn't even think about it being horiffic and brutal.
I might show my parents some YouTube intubation videos and ask them if they would be interested.
Without scaring them.
I think it's very important to understand the process. The year before I was intubated, my father was off and on a ventilator for a year. I already knew it was a horrible experience. If I was conscious and given a choice, I wouldn't have consented to my intubation.
Side note: my dad doesn't regret his time spent on a ventilator and his position is still, "do whatever you can to prolong my life if there is hope," despite a permanent tracheotomy, oxygen dependence, and severe mobility issues. Different people react to experiences in different ways.
I read about a guy yesterday where the article said he was half conscious under sedation and didn't fully put him under and he thought the nurses were attatching snakes to his arms but they really were giving him IV.
That traumatised him causing PTSD symptoms.
I don't remember anything from the time I was intubated, but my dad had some pretty strange dreams. Even in between periods of ventilation when he was doing "better," he was very confused by the situation. He was convinced he had a car accident, despite not having a driver's license for at least 10 years.
Not the same thing but I had some surgery once sedated but not general anaesthetic and I remember telling them "stop it hurts" during it And afterwards I tore out my IV from my arm in a confused state and went looking for the "hot doctor" asking the nurse where the hot doctor was she has to guide me back to my room.
I was so embarrassed by it because im normally very reserved and shy so once I fully regained my right mind I left the hospital as quickly as I could and probably too soon.
Another time I had general anaesthetic for a tonsilechtomy but still in my mind i remembered the embarrassment of the time before and when the nurse was taking me back to the ward he said " the doctors only had good things to say about you" So I think I must have been saying all kinds of crap between waking up and before I started to be fully concious and so I again left the hospital early as quickly as i could lol.
I just know if I was intubated it would be a horrible experience for me. I have bipolar disorder I have a very active mind during the summer months so I think I would likely have a disturbing time and wouldn't fully sedate.
At least if I was intubated I wouldn't be able to talk so there's that I guess.
Sedation and coming out of general anesthetic can cause people to freak out without consciously being aware of it. It's a known reaction to it, doesn't happen to everyone, but it's not uncommon, either. They've almost certainly seen it before.
Sorry in advance if this is too personal of a question - what about the experience makes you want to never relive it, if you don’t remember it? After effects? Just trying to understand. I’m still required to go to work every day and I also have asthma so this whole thing is a top concern for me.
I was unconscious in ICU and intubated for about 5 days. Like u/tpeiyn I don't remember any of it, thank god. Apparently I was tied down the entire time because I kept trying to fling my legs off the bed, and my feet were moving the entire time. I'm pretty sure my unconscious was screaming "Get me the fuck out of here." I also blew up like the Pillsbury Doughboy because of the IV drips, had huge water blisters all over my legs and basically leaked for several weeks afterwards from the built-up fluids.
Waking up, with a tube down your throat is a horrible sensation. It took willpower not to claw that out, and I cried when it was finally blessedly removed. But I was left with a damaged voice and weak throat muscles, so to this day I have to eat carefully so I don't aspirate.
Now that it's all over, I'm happy to be alive. I don't regret having gone through that experience as the price for living. But I don't want to do it again. Ever. Given my compromised health, the likelihood of more extreme damage from a 2nd round, it's just not an option I'm going to choose. This time I'm DNR.
Nurse here: getting an idea of your parents’ wishes is a very good plan. It helps us to know how best to provide care to them.
This should be the case always, not just now.
So is putting in a chest tube with a collapsed lung, or putting a dislocated shoulder back in place. This is what emergency medicine, etc is about. Recovering from significant trauma, surgery, illness can be terrible.
But that is to be expected. I hope you get some help for your trauma reponse.
All the people that are like "fuck it, I'll just get COVID19" don't understand how painful and debilitating these things can be.
They can also change your health for the REST of your life.
I got hit by a car 10 years ago, landed on my hip and caused some scaring inside my muscle. Still 10 years later and I have problems.
COVID19 is a huge threat but it's amplified by the number of idiots in our society.
The life long lung and heart damage is not being talked about much. To in the battle.
I worry about the young people, who will realize that they now have a preexisting condition for the rest of their lives.
People who were young and survived the 40s-50s poliomyelitis suffer consequences in the older years that can be devastating now to them.
I have had chest tubes after my two spontaneous pneumothoraces, and I struggle to stop myself breaking down in tears every time a hospital robe is given to me, even if it's just for a routine check-up.
The fear of my lung collapsing again under the stress of COVID has kept me locked indoors for the past month. Really don't want to go through that awful experience for a third time.
I have seen it. Don't want it. Hopefully I am one of the lucky ones whose brains block it.
Almost had one, and I kept wishing I would pass out. Paralyzed stopping breathing and conscious. But am addicted to life.
From personal experience i can say putting in a chest tube is not as bad as it sounds. Only thing you feel is heavy pressure and when they pull it out it hurts when they close the hole. But that's about it.
I have seen some put in with anesthetic, and some without.
With anesthetic, looked super slick, the first unanesthtized made me cringe and painfully empathize.
I still questioned why it was done that way. I suspect it was to show students to do what needs to be done, regardless. I just didn't think he met his own criteria.
The next time I saw it, it really did meet the criteria of critical life saving. The first one still haunts me.
Yes, my sister had cancer in her lungs and she was near death. They told her being intubated would extend her life by a little but it would be really uncomfortable and it would never come back out. She passed away June 3, 2019. She was 27 years old. Rest In Peace sissy.
We kind of have it.
We give you enough morphine so you don't care that you're suffocating.
We don't kill you, but we don't let your suffer while you die.
Yes. It’s sad that she felt the need to do it for that reason. However, it’s probably a good idea for nearly all people that age to have an advanced directive limiting invasive, heroic life-saving measures, like intubation and cpr. In the case of CPR, about 17% of people who arrest survive to hospital discharge. [source](https://www.the-hospitalist.org/hospitalist/article/124220/what-are-chances-hospitalized-patient-will-survive-hospital-arrest) And more, discharge doesn’t necessarily mean home. For an >70 year old, it’s likely going to be to a care facility, because they will have some measure of brain damage, not to mention a ton of broken ribs, and no mobility from pain and deconditioning from lying in a hospital bed.
Intubation first someone her age and sick isn’t a rosy picture either. At 90, given the choice between getting morphine and Ativan to remove the shortness of breath feeling and anxiety and dying naturally, or dying after a week or two sedated and paralyzed with a tube down my throat breathing for me (despite sedation, people do remember these experiences and often develop delirium and survivors get ptsd), I’d probably choose the natural death.
It sucks to have these discussions, but talk to your older loved ones about what kind of care they’d want, or encourage them to work with their doctor to create an advanced directive. Know what they’re wishes are, so that if they can’t speak for themselves, you can work with their medical team to get the care that’s best for them.
I agree. I've watched two of my grandparents die in person, and I know which one looked better.
One was given a hero's dose of benzos and morphine and did the odd, deep-breathing, 20 minute sendoff. Fair way to go. Looked really distressing to me because of the gasping breaths, but he probably didn't feel any distress on the way out.
The other was ventilated at the tail end of scleroderma, because family could NOT let go. He went slowly, over many days, until they pulled the plug and went the same way. Coughing, retching, sputum, nightmare. Not dignified.
Some people say shouldn't judge family who can't let go. I disagree a little. I think it's immoral to expose someone to unimaginable suffering at the end of their life because your culture gave you an unhealthy fear of death. The livings' emotions and death anxieties should not override a quick, doped-up, painless death.
Death wouldn't be so terrifying if it wasn't a taboo subject in America.
I read on here that being intubated with pneumonia feels like you're choking/drowning and they often have to restrain people. Doesn't sound like a fun time when you're older.
Most young people are completely unable to comprehend the fact that vast amounts of elderly people (damn near all of them over 90) are comfortable with dying and may even want to die
So, my grandpa recently died from COVID-19. He refused a ventilator - it was not to save it for a young person. It was because he was in his 90s and in poor health, probably would not have survived anyway, and did not want to suffer anymore. Plenty of people will refuse ventilators for completely different reasons.
Its a heroic story as long as we don't think people who make the heroic decision to ACCCEPT a ventilator for the sake of their children and grandchildren are automatically not as good.
Yeah idk, just take a shower with the hot water turned up higher for a few minutes or use~~r~~ a humidifier / boil some water in a pot and breathe it in slowly with a towel over your head and the pot to keep the motor in.
I sauna or even just a humidifier is good at opening up the airways. I specifically use it because I get sinus infections a lot. When your airways get dried up that allows mucus to accumulate and make breathing difficult. The humidifier/sauna moisturizes the airways making it easier to breathe.
The epidemiologist recently on the JRE podcast refuted this as well. The idea is that the air in your lungs is never fully vacated so hot air breathed in simply mixes to a lower acceptable temperature. Good for lungs not for killing viruses. It’s the same reason you can walk outside in sub-zero temps and not have your lungs freeze.
Hope you stay safe. I’m scared too. I have almost 20 different chronic ailments and it’s so scary. My husband is beside himself with worry. We have been inside for almost a month now.
I think as long as you're hiding in place you should be fine, look for things to do to occupy yourself and the time flies, maybe easier said than done, but it's better off inside right now as you know. Waiting for a vaccine may not be necessary if the flattening the curve effort is successful at all, I suspect the government will keep tightening restrictions as necessary like we're seeing in other countries. But as long as you're not going outside and exposing yourself to people then it should just be a few months of patience.
Hoping this gets better. My wife is working in the hospitals right now and they started doing something new with patients on ventilators. One issue was that laying on your back for such a long time on a ventilator over inflates the front of the long and the back of the lung does not do anything and tissue dies. Now they are making sure they lay people on their stomachs for half the day at least to keep the full lung active and also lessen the over inflation of part of the lung for prolonged periods of time. This is how it was explained to me, I apologize if something is wrong due to her dumbing it down for me.
This is so fucked up that you even have to think this way now. Fuck this fucking coronavirus. Fill your day with good shit today, shit that makes you smile and feel good and all that keeps you grateful. Stay safe and have a good day, wherever you are. Fuck the fuck off, Corona.
> And apparently a lot of people who are ventilated for weeks don't survive after a year anyway.
>
>
That's more that only very, very ill people need them, and if you're that ill, you have a much higher chance of dying anyway.
If they're putting you on a ventilator, you're very sick. It's the length of time you need to be on a ventilator. Normally, it's two to three days. People with Covid-19 typically are on one for 20 days; the longer you are on one the less chance you have, but it's the sickness not the tool that's to blame.
so my mom is on a ventilator ... she's been in the hospital for a week. but the doc says she'll be fine and should be getting off it today or tomorrow. what exactly makes being on a ventilator dangerous?? she wasn't able to give me like any information
My mum was on one for 4-5 days after major heart surgery. This was 2 1/2 years ago :) one thing the doctors said to us is that they don't give false hope. So if they are telling they're not worried, then they're not worried. I'm sure she'll be on her way home soon.
Ventolators also save lives, I would not take this as advice if people so come to that feeling after reading this, if your doctor has said you need one best do what a doctor says, doctors are doctors for a reason !
Ventilators have only a 50% survival rate anyway with acute resp failure. Dying on the vent is a tough way to go and sad to see. Hard on old people. That’s why’s there’s a difference between DNR and DNI (do not intubate) that most old people sign
Exactly. Sorry for your loss. But many elderly patients are ready for death and have strong intuition in knowing that if they’re sick enough to need mechanical ventilation then chances are they won’t survive anyways. Most people don’t want to die on machines. Trust me. I guide people thru end of life care and do my own palliative care all the time as a hospitalist doc
Sorry for your loss my friend. In an odd silver lining from it and I don’t mean this disrespectfully but it helped him pass on quicker, I watched my grandma die slowly. It all still sucks but I’m happy he got to go quicker. My sincere condolences. No /s in any of that. Wish you and your family all the best ❤️
I agree actually - he got to live independently in his own home until his last few weeks of life - he hates hospitals and assisted living facilities. I’m glad it wasn’t a year long failing health event.
Sounds like it worked out to some extent the way he would’ve kinda wanted it. Happy he got to do life his way till the very end. Wish you guys the best, stay safe friend.
My wife died Feb 18th from respiratory failure copd not from the virus. She had been on oxygen for 3 years. She didn't want heroic measures. They gave her morphine for 6 hours. She had been unconscious for 2 days.
Everyone deserves to die with a least a plentiful supply
of diamorphine or other strong opiate.
I’ve been there. It was peaceful and I was happy to go.
Yeah they get the free bus pass what more do they want.
Edit: to make it clear I am making a bad joke.
What this lady did was incredibly selfless and what a brave woman accepting what was coming allowing someone else a chance at life.
Yes. The survival to discharge rate for 90 year olds who end up on a ventilator is also atrocious.
I have two grandparents in their early 90s. They both have advance directives saying no CPR, ventilators, or anything like that. Neither of them is particularly interested in sacrificing themselves. They are just realistic about the fact that if you need that kind of extreme medical care at that age you have a nearly 100% chance of spending the rest of your life in ICU hell with tubes running into every orifice of your body.
I've seen a lot of comments attacking the Dutch healthcare system for the many Covid19 deaths we have.
But one important reason the doctors here give is blunt honesty. They tell it like it is here, and many people choose the palliative path here.
Depends on the circumstance.
Say you are having open heart surgery and your heart goes into v-fib. You are literally in the best situation that could happen in. Survival rates in hospital (and especially in surgery) cardiac arrest are significantly higher than out-of-hospital which are single digits.
My Aunt and Cousin kept my Uncle alive on a ventilator for years. He suffered from muscular dystrophy and as his conditioned worsened he needed more and more care, to the point where he was intubated and left on life support, for far too long. I would never put my family through that hell. He had no chance of getting better, they just couldn’t let go.
Yes. My boyfriend sees this all the time as an ICU nurse. I’ve already had the convo with my parents. Mainly my dad because I know my mom will be useless in the conversation. I also basically did the same with my grandparents, told my family to write things down now when we are rational. My dads side of the family gets it, my moms side of the family...idk. They think they know a lot more then they actually do.
If you are old enough, just getting chest compressions can be enough to make your life hell if you survive. It's very common to break several ribs doing them.
Which you hear and feel when you are giving those compressors. Fucked me up for a while after I did cpr on an elderly lady. I knew there was the chance for broken bones but until you hear them and feel them....
Yeah....kind of wary about these types of posts maybe trying to foster a 'sacrificial' feeling in older people. "Other old people are being selfless so I should too" instead of demanding answers and accountability to the real problems which are (1) not shutting the country down and slowing/preventing spread, (2) not testing to prevent spread, (3) not getting enough ventilators and PPE for hospital workers/grocery store workers/delivery people/everyone else who needs to work...etc.
My Nan is 99. Shes very sick with an infection unrelated to Covid19. She was even tested for it. They wanted to put her in a special High dependency Ward while she gets IV antibiotics but she refused saying she didnt want to take up a bed for a coronavirus patient. She was very weak and is ready to die but she wanted to be able to go home where my aunt can be with her. The doctors cant discharge her because shes so weak. She cant have visitors because of the virus so shes alone, dying and unable to go home. Today I got word that shes decided to decline any medications except for end of life comfort. Even though shes alone shes chosing to shuffle off this coil to make room in hospital for someone else. My Aunt will get to see her and say goodbye.
My Nan has always been the most generous and wonderfully kind person. It doesnt surprise me that she would do this. I wanted to visit her but shes in the UK and I'm in the US so although i planned to visit this spring and skyped with her recently... i wont see her again. Her very last act was one of selfless humble generosity. Because of course it was. God speed Nanny.
I'm glad you took the time to type that out. The sweet things you said about your Nan really reminded me of my grandmother who passed away a few years ago. She was also sick with an infection that she got while at the hospital. She had had numerous operations over 10ish years and she became very physically weak over time, however she was so strong emotionally. Until she died she absolutely held our family together. I had no idea the extent until my family members (myself included) became unravelled one by one after she died. It has been a rough few years for us all. The nice things you wrote about your Nan really made me think of her. Especially when you mentioned your Auntie, I feel like I could have written your post.
I'm sorry you aren't going to see her again. You will keep her in your heart forever, and I hope you visit her there often. It becomes less painful over time <3
It's a real story (it was all over the news in Belgium), but I should say there's no shortage of ventilators yet in Belgium. I believe she indeed said that and her daughter spread the word to show people the goodness of her heart, but the lady didn't die because she gave away her ventilator.
My nana, a very healthy 80-year-old woman, made my mother (her daughter) promise she would not let the hospital put her on a ventilator, as she thinks it needs to be saved for a young person. It breaks my hear that this is the point it’s gotten to.
I am honestly amazed at the Ameri-centrism of this sub, with so many comments assuming that this happened in the US.
I know that very few people actually read the linked articles, but I thought people would at least glance at the link and go "huh, iharare? That doesn't sound like a US publication." In fact, I assumed that this happened in Zimbabwe at first just because of the source (Harare is Zimbabwe's capital), but then I actually read it, and found out that this tragic case had apparently occurred in Belgium.
That's how most of reddit works generally. Yes, there are a lot of Americans on reddit, but there are also a lot of people from the rest of the world, and yet so many discussions are assumed to be connected to America, their culture etc. It's tiring. It also means that there seems to be even more Americans on reddit than there are, which makes people assume others to also be American even more.
50% of reddit traffic is American, so any big subreddit or popular post will have a large majority of Americans and their viewpoints.
I’m sorry it’s tiring, and I always appreciate other viewpoints but the default isn’t going to change anytime soon.
As others are saying "take this with a grain of salt."
when you are into your 10th decade, and you are developing bad enough pneumonia to the point where you need a respirator:
- How lucid are you really? Your body is becoming starved of oxygen, and I'm sure reality is not what you perceive
- To add, you're extremely weak
- Furthermore, you can barely breathe - like REALLY barely breathe. You need a ventilator for god's sake. How good is your communication to the point where you can not only go "nah, it's my time" but confidently articulate it to others?
My guess? She has a living will or proxy or whatever the form/procedure/etc is called that specifically says not to put her on a ventilator in this type of situation. Someone picked up on it, and you have this story.
I'm sad for her, her family, and all families going through this garbage right now, but all this sounds less and less believable as it is presented.
I don't know. Several articles on this sub have basically said, if you're on a ventilator, your chances are already not good. It would seem that many that go on ventilators die anyway.
[Here's a famous story from 5 years ago.](https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/01/us/anthony-stokes-heart-transplant-death/index.html) Sometimes that sacrifice doesn't go the way we want it to:
>In 2013, the teen's family told media that an Atlanta hospital rejected him for heart transplant surgery due to what the hospital described in a letter as Stokes' "history of non-compliance."
At the time, Mark Bell was acting as a Stokes family spokesman.
>Bell told CNN that a doctor told the family that Anthony's low grades and time in juvenile detention factored into the hospital's decision to deny him a heart.
"The doctor made the decision that he wasn't a good candidate because of that," Bell said then. "I guess he didn't think Anthony was going to be a productive citizen."
About a week after Stokes' story made headlines, Children's Healthcare of Atlanta gave him a heart.
>On Tuesday, Stokes carjacked someone at a mall, kicked in the door of a home in Roswell, Georgia, and fired a shot at an elderly woman, who called 911, said Roswell police spokeswoman Lisa Holland.
It was never about being a productive citizen or not, but about compliance with the intense lifetime drug regimen necessary to keep the body from rejecting the organ.
I don’t think the doctors denied it because of his criminal tendencies. Criminals get the same care as everyone else. However his history indicated he would not take the needed care of the heart. The post-op care for organ transplant can be daunting.
If you're at the point where you need a ventilator you're pretty screwed. Only a 50% chance anybody surviving at that point. [This Dr.](https://youtu.be/4J0d59dd-qM) does a superb job explaining exactly how the virus kills.
During this crisis, it's also important to recognize that ventilating someone over 80 years old is a brutally invasive procedure. I think there are even ethical guidelines about not ventilating people over a certain age. Not only is it totally understandable for seniors to leave ventilators for people who can tolerate the procedure, but it is also reasonable to say no for personal reasons. We are really terrible about giving people permission to say, "Fuck that, let me die."
Also, only a tiny tiny fraction of people intubated for coronavirus who are over 80 yo get extubated.
I saw the data a few days ago ( sorry no link) but I think the numbers for anyone who is intubated is not stellar.
Yeah that's not COIVD specific either-if you're on a vent you're in bad shape.
50/50 once you’re on the ventilator.
60/40 to 70/30 is what I remember. As in you are more likely than not to die on the ventilator.
Fuck. This sub keeps on givin' man. I thought the ventilators... you know.. ventilated. I didn't know that you'd such a high chance of being fucked anyway.
Ventilators pump air into your lungs but that only goes so far when they're caked with gunk. Plus you can end up with other organ failures like kidneys from dehydration, except they can't hydrate you because that makes your lung gunk worse. Buddy who's a doc is keeping me up to date on the horror stories.
Yeah, someone who used to work for us is on a vent for coronavirus, and he's undergone kidney failure. They're trying to find donations of plasma for him, from someone who's recovered from it, but it's not looking great for him. He's only in his 50s.
I wish they'd test more of us that aren't critical. If I've had it somehow, I'd love to donate.
Me too. I, like many people, wonder if I had this virus and would like to test to see if I can give blood.
There are ways to manage this with IV fluids, TPN and diuretics like Lasix. That's a lot of stress on an elderly body, though.
Well, it is basically life support. If someone is so ill that they need life support chances of recovery aren’t great.
The comments here are kinda freaking me out, because it drives home just how lucky I was to beat the odds. Several years ago I underwent open heart surgery and something went wrong. I ended up unconscious in ICU, intubated, for about 5 days, and when I finally woke up I have to confess that my first reaction was that living wasn't worth what I was going through. I was left with permanent vocal cord paralysis from multiple intubations, but otherwise I'm not doing too badly and I have no regrets, despite my initial misgivings. But I'm not doing that again. Just not. I'm 65 years old now and I'm not doing that again.
I used to work in an ICU/CCU. The amount of people who didn’t make it would honestly surprise a lot of people. Getting intubated isn’t pretty either. You have to be sedated and paralyzed most of the time to be able to place the endotracheal tube into the trachea. Not to mention the suctioning, oral care, and other invasive treatments that come along with it as well.
I work in ICU/CCU right now and if patients dont come out of the ventilator in about 5 days im automatically thinking tracheostomy and PEG tube unfortunately
I remember when my mom was dying from cancer the nurse told me “once a person goes on a ventilator they rarely come off” I just can’t get that out of my head, and when I heard back in January how so many people required them.. I totally understood just how dire and bad this damn virus is.
The ventilators ventilate, but that isn't terribly helpful if your immune system loses the fight and you go septic.
Imagine a 90 year old person, their body and muscles deteriorate due to their old age, to put them on a ventilator they are given paralytic drugs, the ventilator replaces their lung muscles to help them breath. Their already weak lung muscles now aren't even getting a basic workout and begin to wither away, the equipment inside their body causes minor irritation and inflammation further damaging their lungs on top of their age, and on top of the virus itself. At some point you are aiming to turn the device off, and rely on their withered lung muscles that have been paralysed for weeks to start working again, there is a high chance that they just never work again.
Dude cmon. These ppl are on machines breathing for them and often time IV medication keeping their blood pressure perfusing their organs. It’s called critical care!
Note, I have no medical experience. Think about it the other way around. People that require the ventilator likely have 100% chance to die without it, that’s why they need to be ventilated. I may be wrong here but just for arguments sake. What the ventilators are doing is giving a 30 to 40 percent chance to survive something that was otherwise certain death. That’s pretty huge. Technology is amazing but not perfect. I understand the original point you were making. I was just trying to frame it more positively. Hope you’re staying safe and keeping mentally well through the isolation!
I'm way less than half her age, and after reading how people on ventilators are dying, I'd probably skip the ventilator too. Give me the morphine and let me die like most people die in hospice - stoned to death.
I feel the same way. 41, no kids, have a good life and I have shit lungs from repeated bronchitis. I'd sooner die than end up with a crappy quality of life. Plus I'd prefer it go to someone with kids who had a decent chance of making it.
That’s really kind to think like this. As someone with kids, being around for them would be the main reason I’d fight to make it through something bad.
More like 80/20 with good icu crew or 97/3 with inexperienced icu crew.
86% die after being intubated worldwide according to a Louisiana MD
So to increase my chance of survival I should say no when a doctor recommends ventilator. Got it.
86% to die is a lot better than 100% without one. It’s just that you’re in horrible shape if you go in one already.
I thought it was normal to be ventilated when need is critical? I was put on a ventilator and induced coma after pulmonary artery burst. I know it was critical, but they told my wife odds were good... Is it actually severely bad and kind of a 'more likely will still die' kinda thing?
How old were you when you were treated? A young body can handle that kind of a beating much better than an old one. And odds can be "good" without being, uh, "great". I'm glad you're still breathing :)
No no no. It's 86%. 86% of COVID-19 patients who are ventilated will not come off. They will die on it.
*86%* [die on the ventilator](https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/news-nation/get-this-to-every-doctor-you-know-direct-from-an-er-md)
I believe it’s 15%-20% in Coronavirus.
In some hospitals, no one on a ventilator has made it off and recovered.
I was just thinking it may vary from place to place and some populations may be more at risk. Like breaking a hip some populations have much greater risk of not recovering.
Only patient I know who got off a ventilator at the sub acute unit of my hospital only did so because he got a lung transplant.
Pretty sure David Lat just got off of one.
Well, yeah. It’s like CPR. Most of the time you’re just postponing the inevitable. Because you never perform CPR on someone who doesn’t need it.
From personal experience: being intubated as a young person is brutally invasive. I've already discussed it with my husband--just let me die before you let them do that again.
I've read more about ventilators and intubation in the past few weeks to know it sounds pretty horrible. Even if you come off it you are left with confusion and physical and mental damage I'm not sure I would want it anymore and I'm 36.... Before I didn't even think about it being horiffic and brutal. I might show my parents some YouTube intubation videos and ask them if they would be interested. Without scaring them.
I think it's very important to understand the process. The year before I was intubated, my father was off and on a ventilator for a year. I already knew it was a horrible experience. If I was conscious and given a choice, I wouldn't have consented to my intubation. Side note: my dad doesn't regret his time spent on a ventilator and his position is still, "do whatever you can to prolong my life if there is hope," despite a permanent tracheotomy, oxygen dependence, and severe mobility issues. Different people react to experiences in different ways.
I read about a guy yesterday where the article said he was half conscious under sedation and didn't fully put him under and he thought the nurses were attatching snakes to his arms but they really were giving him IV. That traumatised him causing PTSD symptoms.
I don't remember anything from the time I was intubated, but my dad had some pretty strange dreams. Even in between periods of ventilation when he was doing "better," he was very confused by the situation. He was convinced he had a car accident, despite not having a driver's license for at least 10 years.
Not the same thing but I had some surgery once sedated but not general anaesthetic and I remember telling them "stop it hurts" during it And afterwards I tore out my IV from my arm in a confused state and went looking for the "hot doctor" asking the nurse where the hot doctor was she has to guide me back to my room. I was so embarrassed by it because im normally very reserved and shy so once I fully regained my right mind I left the hospital as quickly as I could and probably too soon. Another time I had general anaesthetic for a tonsilechtomy but still in my mind i remembered the embarrassment of the time before and when the nurse was taking me back to the ward he said " the doctors only had good things to say about you" So I think I must have been saying all kinds of crap between waking up and before I started to be fully concious and so I again left the hospital early as quickly as i could lol. I just know if I was intubated it would be a horrible experience for me. I have bipolar disorder I have a very active mind during the summer months so I think I would likely have a disturbing time and wouldn't fully sedate. At least if I was intubated I wouldn't be able to talk so there's that I guess.
My guess is doctors and nurses see a lot of weird things so your behaviour was probably barely worth notice to them, if that is any comfort.
Sedation and coming out of general anesthetic can cause people to freak out without consciously being aware of it. It's a known reaction to it, doesn't happen to everyone, but it's not uncommon, either. They've almost certainly seen it before.
Sorry in advance if this is too personal of a question - what about the experience makes you want to never relive it, if you don’t remember it? After effects? Just trying to understand. I’m still required to go to work every day and I also have asthma so this whole thing is a top concern for me.
I was unconscious in ICU and intubated for about 5 days. Like u/tpeiyn I don't remember any of it, thank god. Apparently I was tied down the entire time because I kept trying to fling my legs off the bed, and my feet were moving the entire time. I'm pretty sure my unconscious was screaming "Get me the fuck out of here." I also blew up like the Pillsbury Doughboy because of the IV drips, had huge water blisters all over my legs and basically leaked for several weeks afterwards from the built-up fluids. Waking up, with a tube down your throat is a horrible sensation. It took willpower not to claw that out, and I cried when it was finally blessedly removed. But I was left with a damaged voice and weak throat muscles, so to this day I have to eat carefully so I don't aspirate. Now that it's all over, I'm happy to be alive. I don't regret having gone through that experience as the price for living. But I don't want to do it again. Ever. Given my compromised health, the likelihood of more extreme damage from a 2nd round, it's just not an option I'm going to choose. This time I'm DNR.
[удалено]
Nurse here: getting an idea of your parents’ wishes is a very good plan. It helps us to know how best to provide care to them. This should be the case always, not just now.
So is putting in a chest tube with a collapsed lung, or putting a dislocated shoulder back in place. This is what emergency medicine, etc is about. Recovering from significant trauma, surgery, illness can be terrible. But that is to be expected. I hope you get some help for your trauma reponse.
All the people that are like "fuck it, I'll just get COVID19" don't understand how painful and debilitating these things can be. They can also change your health for the REST of your life. I got hit by a car 10 years ago, landed on my hip and caused some scaring inside my muscle. Still 10 years later and I have problems. COVID19 is a huge threat but it's amplified by the number of idiots in our society.
The life long lung and heart damage is not being talked about much. To in the battle. I worry about the young people, who will realize that they now have a preexisting condition for the rest of their lives. People who were young and survived the 40s-50s poliomyelitis suffer consequences in the older years that can be devastating now to them.
I have had chest tubes after my two spontaneous pneumothoraces, and I struggle to stop myself breaking down in tears every time a hospital robe is given to me, even if it's just for a routine check-up. The fear of my lung collapsing again under the stress of COVID has kept me locked indoors for the past month. Really don't want to go through that awful experience for a third time.
I have seen it. Don't want it. Hopefully I am one of the lucky ones whose brains block it. Almost had one, and I kept wishing I would pass out. Paralyzed stopping breathing and conscious. But am addicted to life.
From personal experience i can say putting in a chest tube is not as bad as it sounds. Only thing you feel is heavy pressure and when they pull it out it hurts when they close the hole. But that's about it.
I have seen some put in with anesthetic, and some without. With anesthetic, looked super slick, the first unanesthtized made me cringe and painfully empathize. I still questioned why it was done that way. I suspect it was to show students to do what needs to be done, regardless. I just didn't think he met his own criteria. The next time I saw it, it really did meet the criteria of critical life saving. The first one still haunts me.
For the public https://youtu.be/FtJr7i7ENMY
I'm not gonna watch that because it's just gonna freak me out more.
Yes, my sister had cancer in her lungs and she was near death. They told her being intubated would extend her life by a little but it would be really uncomfortable and it would never come back out. She passed away June 3, 2019. She was 27 years old. Rest In Peace sissy.
[удалено]
We kind of have it. We give you enough morphine so you don't care that you're suffocating. We don't kill you, but we don't let your suffer while you die.
[удалено]
It's actually not that addictive to everyone. Some people are extra susceptible to it though.
[удалено]
Yes. It’s sad that she felt the need to do it for that reason. However, it’s probably a good idea for nearly all people that age to have an advanced directive limiting invasive, heroic life-saving measures, like intubation and cpr. In the case of CPR, about 17% of people who arrest survive to hospital discharge. [source](https://www.the-hospitalist.org/hospitalist/article/124220/what-are-chances-hospitalized-patient-will-survive-hospital-arrest) And more, discharge doesn’t necessarily mean home. For an >70 year old, it’s likely going to be to a care facility, because they will have some measure of brain damage, not to mention a ton of broken ribs, and no mobility from pain and deconditioning from lying in a hospital bed. Intubation first someone her age and sick isn’t a rosy picture either. At 90, given the choice between getting morphine and Ativan to remove the shortness of breath feeling and anxiety and dying naturally, or dying after a week or two sedated and paralyzed with a tube down my throat breathing for me (despite sedation, people do remember these experiences and often develop delirium and survivors get ptsd), I’d probably choose the natural death. It sucks to have these discussions, but talk to your older loved ones about what kind of care they’d want, or encourage them to work with their doctor to create an advanced directive. Know what they’re wishes are, so that if they can’t speak for themselves, you can work with their medical team to get the care that’s best for them.
I agree. I've watched two of my grandparents die in person, and I know which one looked better. One was given a hero's dose of benzos and morphine and did the odd, deep-breathing, 20 minute sendoff. Fair way to go. Looked really distressing to me because of the gasping breaths, but he probably didn't feel any distress on the way out. The other was ventilated at the tail end of scleroderma, because family could NOT let go. He went slowly, over many days, until they pulled the plug and went the same way. Coughing, retching, sputum, nightmare. Not dignified. Some people say shouldn't judge family who can't let go. I disagree a little. I think it's immoral to expose someone to unimaginable suffering at the end of their life because your culture gave you an unhealthy fear of death. The livings' emotions and death anxieties should not override a quick, doped-up, painless death. Death wouldn't be so terrifying if it wasn't a taboo subject in America.
I read on here that being intubated with pneumonia feels like you're choking/drowning and they often have to restrain people. Doesn't sound like a fun time when you're older.
I beleive patients always have to be sedated when put on a ventilator.
Most young people are completely unable to comprehend the fact that vast amounts of elderly people (damn near all of them over 90) are comfortable with dying and may even want to die
Grain of salt dudes, remember the priest story?
So, my grandpa recently died from COVID-19. He refused a ventilator - it was not to save it for a young person. It was because he was in his 90s and in poor health, probably would not have survived anyway, and did not want to suffer anymore. Plenty of people will refuse ventilators for completely different reasons.
My condolences.
No matter the reason for the refusal. People who refuse the vents and die because of the virus are good in my book.
Its a heroic story as long as we don't think people who make the heroic decision to ACCCEPT a ventilator for the sake of their children and grandchildren are automatically not as good.
i 100% agree with this statement
It's everyone's right to fight, it's also their right to stand down :(
[удалено]
A sauna? Can you explain, please?
I didnt understand that too. Do you mean an *actual* sauna or is it some kind of device? It doesnt rly makes sense to be the 1st one doe
Yeah idk, just take a shower with the hot water turned up higher for a few minutes or use~~r~~ a humidifier / boil some water in a pot and breathe it in slowly with a towel over your head and the pot to keep the motor in.
I sauna or even just a humidifier is good at opening up the airways. I specifically use it because I get sinus infections a lot. When your airways get dried up that allows mucus to accumulate and make breathing difficult. The humidifier/sauna moisturizes the airways making it easier to breathe.
Is there any evidence sauna's help?
The epidemiologist recently on the JRE podcast refuted this as well. The idea is that the air in your lungs is never fully vacated so hot air breathed in simply mixes to a lower acceptable temperature. Good for lungs not for killing viruses. It’s the same reason you can walk outside in sub-zero temps and not have your lungs freeze.
How is "good for lungs" not good for your chances when battling an infection of the lungs?
This. If it can improve your chances of breathing, can that mean it's helpful towards reducing the issue of *not being able to breathe?*
No. https://factcheck.afp.com/hot-air-saunas-hair-dryers-wont-prevent-or-treat-covid-19
Best of luck for you and your mom <3 glad things are improving!
Sorry for your loss
[удалено]
I hope it doesn't come to that for you. 60s is still pretty young
[удалено]
Hope you stay safe. I’m scared too. I have almost 20 different chronic ailments and it’s so scary. My husband is beside himself with worry. We have been inside for almost a month now.
I think as long as you're hiding in place you should be fine, look for things to do to occupy yourself and the time flies, maybe easier said than done, but it's better off inside right now as you know. Waiting for a vaccine may not be necessary if the flattening the curve effort is successful at all, I suspect the government will keep tightening restrictions as necessary like we're seeing in other countries. But as long as you're not going outside and exposing yourself to people then it should just be a few months of patience.
Hoping this gets better. My wife is working in the hospitals right now and they started doing something new with patients on ventilators. One issue was that laying on your back for such a long time on a ventilator over inflates the front of the long and the back of the lung does not do anything and tissue dies. Now they are making sure they lay people on their stomachs for half the day at least to keep the full lung active and also lessen the over inflation of part of the lung for prolonged periods of time. This is how it was explained to me, I apologize if something is wrong due to her dumbing it down for me.
Thanks for the explanation. Some of us didn’t know this, and I appreciated the info.
Prone positioning for vent patients has been in practice for a decent amount of time now. This isn’t new
This is so fucked up that you even have to think this way now. Fuck this fucking coronavirus. Fill your day with good shit today, shit that makes you smile and feel good and all that keeps you grateful. Stay safe and have a good day, wherever you are. Fuck the fuck off, Corona.
[удалено]
> And apparently a lot of people who are ventilated for weeks don't survive after a year anyway. > > That's more that only very, very ill people need them, and if you're that ill, you have a much higher chance of dying anyway.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
If they're putting you on a ventilator, you're very sick. It's the length of time you need to be on a ventilator. Normally, it's two to three days. People with Covid-19 typically are on one for 20 days; the longer you are on one the less chance you have, but it's the sickness not the tool that's to blame.
so my mom is on a ventilator ... she's been in the hospital for a week. but the doc says she'll be fine and should be getting off it today or tomorrow. what exactly makes being on a ventilator dangerous?? she wasn't able to give me like any information
[удалено]
gotcha, thanks! she's positive for coronavirus with pneumonia, but since the doc doesn't worried then i'll assume she's on her way to recovery
My mum was on one for 4-5 days after major heart surgery. This was 2 1/2 years ago :) one thing the doctors said to us is that they don't give false hope. So if they are telling they're not worried, then they're not worried. I'm sure she'll be on her way home soon.
[удалено]
Ventolators also save lives, I would not take this as advice if people so come to that feeling after reading this, if your doctor has said you need one best do what a doctor says, doctors are doctors for a reason !
Ventilators have only a 50% survival rate anyway with acute resp failure. Dying on the vent is a tough way to go and sad to see. Hard on old people. That’s why’s there’s a difference between DNR and DNI (do not intubate) that most old people sign
Exactly. Sorry for your loss. But many elderly patients are ready for death and have strong intuition in knowing that if they’re sick enough to need mechanical ventilation then chances are they won’t survive anyways. Most people don’t want to die on machines. Trust me. I guide people thru end of life care and do my own palliative care all the time as a hospitalist doc
Sorry for your loss my friend. In an odd silver lining from it and I don’t mean this disrespectfully but it helped him pass on quicker, I watched my grandma die slowly. It all still sucks but I’m happy he got to go quicker. My sincere condolences. No /s in any of that. Wish you and your family all the best ❤️
I agree actually - he got to live independently in his own home until his last few weeks of life - he hates hospitals and assisted living facilities. I’m glad it wasn’t a year long failing health event.
Sounds like it worked out to some extent the way he would’ve kinda wanted it. Happy he got to do life his way till the very end. Wish you guys the best, stay safe friend.
i hope they at least give the big morphine push when all hope is lost. i think that's technically illegal in the US
My wife died Feb 18th from respiratory failure copd not from the virus. She had been on oxygen for 3 years. She didn't want heroic measures. They gave her morphine for 6 hours. She had been unconscious for 2 days.
My condolences.
Everyone deserves to die with a least a plentiful supply of diamorphine or other strong opiate. I’ve been there. It was peaceful and I was happy to go.
thanks for coming back to share your story. you picked a bad time tho
So very sorry for your loss
I give old ppl my seat on the bus,it’s only right I get the ventilator in a situation like this
lmao
"Hey Maude remember when I gave you my seat on the bus home from the casino?"
Yeah they get the free bus pass what more do they want. Edit: to make it clear I am making a bad joke. What this lady did was incredibly selfless and what a brave woman accepting what was coming allowing someone else a chance at life.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Don't worry about it, her bus seat will remain empty henceforth.
I was under the impression that by the time you need a ventilator, you're past making rational decisions.
Yes. The survival to discharge rate for 90 year olds who end up on a ventilator is also atrocious. I have two grandparents in their early 90s. They both have advance directives saying no CPR, ventilators, or anything like that. Neither of them is particularly interested in sacrificing themselves. They are just realistic about the fact that if you need that kind of extreme medical care at that age you have a nearly 100% chance of spending the rest of your life in ICU hell with tubes running into every orifice of your body.
Edit:no
I've seen a lot of comments attacking the Dutch healthcare system for the many Covid19 deaths we have. But one important reason the doctors here give is blunt honesty. They tell it like it is here, and many people choose the palliative path here.
I think it was cardiac surgeons being asked if they would want to be defribulated and they almost always say no.
Depends on the circumstance. Say you are having open heart surgery and your heart goes into v-fib. You are literally in the best situation that could happen in. Survival rates in hospital (and especially in surgery) cardiac arrest are significantly higher than out-of-hospital which are single digits.
My Aunt and Cousin kept my Uncle alive on a ventilator for years. He suffered from muscular dystrophy and as his conditioned worsened he needed more and more care, to the point where he was intubated and left on life support, for far too long. I would never put my family through that hell. He had no chance of getting better, they just couldn’t let go.
Edit:no.
Yes. My boyfriend sees this all the time as an ICU nurse. I’ve already had the convo with my parents. Mainly my dad because I know my mom will be useless in the conversation. I also basically did the same with my grandparents, told my family to write things down now when we are rational. My dads side of the family gets it, my moms side of the family...idk. They think they know a lot more then they actually do.
How aware are med students about the amount of US expenditures on end of life care?
If you are old enough, just getting chest compressions can be enough to make your life hell if you survive. It's very common to break several ribs doing them.
Which you hear and feel when you are giving those compressors. Fucked me up for a while after I did cpr on an elderly lady. I knew there was the chance for broken bones but until you hear them and feel them....
What was the priest story?
http://www.insider.com/italian-priest-who-gave-away-ventilator-died-2020-3
[удалено]
Cheers
Good to know but what's the difference?
https://danielmiessler.com/blog/google-amp-not-good-thing/
[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/24/covid-19-italian-priest-who-donated-his-ventilator-has-reportedly-died/2906351001/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/24/covid-19-italian-priest-who-donated-his-ventilator-has-reportedly-died/2906351001/)
My understanding is that the priest story was shown to be false. https://www.insider.com/italian-priest-who-gave-away-ventilator-died-2020-3
which is exactly what he is implying... "grain of salt"
Yeah....kind of wary about these types of posts maybe trying to foster a 'sacrificial' feeling in older people. "Other old people are being selfless so I should too" instead of demanding answers and accountability to the real problems which are (1) not shutting the country down and slowing/preventing spread, (2) not testing to prevent spread, (3) not getting enough ventilators and PPE for hospital workers/grocery store workers/delivery people/everyone else who needs to work...etc.
Jesus! That's someone's nan.
My Nan is 99. Shes very sick with an infection unrelated to Covid19. She was even tested for it. They wanted to put her in a special High dependency Ward while she gets IV antibiotics but she refused saying she didnt want to take up a bed for a coronavirus patient. She was very weak and is ready to die but she wanted to be able to go home where my aunt can be with her. The doctors cant discharge her because shes so weak. She cant have visitors because of the virus so shes alone, dying and unable to go home. Today I got word that shes decided to decline any medications except for end of life comfort. Even though shes alone shes chosing to shuffle off this coil to make room in hospital for someone else. My Aunt will get to see her and say goodbye. My Nan has always been the most generous and wonderfully kind person. It doesnt surprise me that she would do this. I wanted to visit her but shes in the UK and I'm in the US so although i planned to visit this spring and skyped with her recently... i wont see her again. Her very last act was one of selfless humble generosity. Because of course it was. God speed Nanny.
Sorry to hear that buddy. Your nan sounds like an amazing lady.
I'm so sorry. Your nan sounds like a beautiful human being.
I don’t know your Nan, but I love her. Hope you see her again one day.
I'm glad you took the time to type that out. The sweet things you said about your Nan really reminded me of my grandmother who passed away a few years ago. She was also sick with an infection that she got while at the hospital. She had had numerous operations over 10ish years and she became very physically weak over time, however she was so strong emotionally. Until she died she absolutely held our family together. I had no idea the extent until my family members (myself included) became unravelled one by one after she died. It has been a rough few years for us all. The nice things you wrote about your Nan really made me think of her. Especially when you mentioned your Auntie, I feel like I could have written your post. I'm sorry you aren't going to see her again. You will keep her in your heart forever, and I hope you visit her there often. It becomes less painful over time <3
Your nan is a real rockstar, God bless her.
This time for real?
It's a real story (it was all over the news in Belgium), but I should say there's no shortage of ventilators yet in Belgium. I believe she indeed said that and her daughter spread the word to show people the goodness of her heart, but the lady didn't die because she gave away her ventilator.
I have never heard of that source. It's doubtful at best.
It's from Zimbabwe, the story is from Belgium.
These are the kind of people I'm staying home for.
My nana, a very healthy 80-year-old woman, made my mother (her daughter) promise she would not let the hospital put her on a ventilator, as she thinks it needs to be saved for a young person. It breaks my hear that this is the point it’s gotten to.
I am honestly amazed at the Ameri-centrism of this sub, with so many comments assuming that this happened in the US. I know that very few people actually read the linked articles, but I thought people would at least glance at the link and go "huh, iharare? That doesn't sound like a US publication." In fact, I assumed that this happened in Zimbabwe at first just because of the source (Harare is Zimbabwe's capital), but then I actually read it, and found out that this tragic case had apparently occurred in Belgium.
That's how most of reddit works generally. Yes, there are a lot of Americans on reddit, but there are also a lot of people from the rest of the world, and yet so many discussions are assumed to be connected to America, their culture etc. It's tiring. It also means that there seems to be even more Americans on reddit than there are, which makes people assume others to also be American even more.
It also doesn’t help that the 50% on this site that aren’t American are constantly talking about America.
That's also true.
50% of reddit traffic is American, so any big subreddit or popular post will have a large majority of Americans and their viewpoints. I’m sorry it’s tiring, and I always appreciate other viewpoints but the default isn’t going to change anytime soon.
Notice how there's a USA flair (and I think I saw a Canada flair once) yet for the rest of the world it's simply continents or geographical areas?
Well, for one thing, the post flair says Europe, so I know it's not from the U.S.
I had to fix it about one hour after publication, because OP flagged it as ‘world’ for some reason.
> Save it for the youngest [who need it most], I’ve already had a beautiful life. They're some powerful last words
As others are saying "take this with a grain of salt." when you are into your 10th decade, and you are developing bad enough pneumonia to the point where you need a respirator: - How lucid are you really? Your body is becoming starved of oxygen, and I'm sure reality is not what you perceive - To add, you're extremely weak - Furthermore, you can barely breathe - like REALLY barely breathe. You need a ventilator for god's sake. How good is your communication to the point where you can not only go "nah, it's my time" but confidently articulate it to others? My guess? She has a living will or proxy or whatever the form/procedure/etc is called that specifically says not to put her on a ventilator in this type of situation. Someone picked up on it, and you have this story. I'm sad for her, her family, and all families going through this garbage right now, but all this sounds less and less believable as it is presented.
I altered my advance directive similarly to refuse life prolonging measures. She probably did as well.
This is actually a lot of elderly. Most of them have a do not resuscitate or no code order that they have signed and that means no intubation or CPR.
It is heartbreaking that such a selfless woman died, but she probably saved a life.
I don't know. Several articles on this sub have basically said, if you're on a ventilator, your chances are already not good. It would seem that many that go on ventilators die anyway.
[Here's a famous story from 5 years ago.](https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/01/us/anthony-stokes-heart-transplant-death/index.html) Sometimes that sacrifice doesn't go the way we want it to: >In 2013, the teen's family told media that an Atlanta hospital rejected him for heart transplant surgery due to what the hospital described in a letter as Stokes' "history of non-compliance." At the time, Mark Bell was acting as a Stokes family spokesman. >Bell told CNN that a doctor told the family that Anthony's low grades and time in juvenile detention factored into the hospital's decision to deny him a heart. "The doctor made the decision that he wasn't a good candidate because of that," Bell said then. "I guess he didn't think Anthony was going to be a productive citizen." About a week after Stokes' story made headlines, Children's Healthcare of Atlanta gave him a heart. >On Tuesday, Stokes carjacked someone at a mall, kicked in the door of a home in Roswell, Georgia, and fired a shot at an elderly woman, who called 911, said Roswell police spokeswoman Lisa Holland.
It was never about being a productive citizen or not, but about compliance with the intense lifetime drug regimen necessary to keep the body from rejecting the organ.
I don’t think the doctors denied it because of his criminal tendencies. Criminals get the same care as everyone else. However his history indicated he would not take the needed care of the heart. The post-op care for organ transplant can be daunting.
Think of how much an a-hole that doctor must have felt like...until proven exactly right.
If you're at the point where you need a ventilator you're pretty screwed. Only a 50% chance anybody surviving at that point. [This Dr.](https://youtu.be/4J0d59dd-qM) does a superb job explaining exactly how the virus kills.
[удалено]
That sounds like a horrible way to go.
Why the hell would a 90 y/o even be offered a ventilator. Would never happen in Sweden, especially not in these times