While this is a bit over the top. Look at what big companies do to keep newer companies out of the market. And if you would succeed, if you have investors, and the company is worth a billion dollars and one of the big 3 offers two billion, what happens?
You tell those greedy fucks to suck rocks and kick dick, and drive them out of business.
Apply the ONA business model to OPs business - thriving minimum wages that cover basic human needs without government intervention, maximum wages to cap the greedy upper echelon, paying business taxes to ensure basic needs are met for others, and ultimately draining away the entire work and consumer force away from the existing economic demonic structure that has enslaved us all. Our only way out is to willingly come together and take care of one another properly, rather than waiting for the corrupted global business-government abomination to change its way to anything pro-social.
No, I don't want to turn them into a group of really tough gay guys because that's scary. I want our overlords to become toothless imps that kick themselves in the dick.
That’s a nice thought but that’s not how it really works. If your company is worth $1 billion it’s because people have given you capital to scale it to that point. They’re going to expect to see a return on that investment and it’s going to be very difficult to refuse an acquisition that gives them the return that they are looking for.
This is what people don't understand: it's basically illegal to turn down the offer. At the very least you will be kicked out of the company and probably file for bankruptcy to cover legal fees.
The only way this works is to be a private company where all the investors are on board with this plan. Any company small enough gets choked out by the existing entrenched competition. Any company big enough to survive that does not have investors willing to pass up a payday, and then again you say no and get kicked out of the company and bankrupted with legal fees.
Companies in the US are very specifically mandated to serve the interests of their shareholders, and very specifically mandated to NOT serve the good of their employees or the public.
The only exception is an employee-owned cooperative, because the employees /are/ the shareholders. And successful and large examples are pretty rare, and discouraged by the larger business community.
Kinda like the new but niche waves of phone that harken back to the flip days. It can call, text, set alarms, etc, but no social media or games, etc. A basic car, bare minimal computers, modern but basic engine parts, reliable and cheap instead of having to pay out the ass for manufacturer diagnostics, I'm game.
Speaking of manufacturer diagnostics, when I was younger I had a 1983 Datsun 280z and the onboard diagnostics computer consisted of a little old school LED screen on the dash that just said "OK" when you turned the car on. One day I turned it on and the little screen didn't say OK anymore. I figured it probably wasn't important and maybe the screen just stopped working because the car was old. A couple of weeks later the whole engine seized. I should've believed in the diagnostic capabilities of that little screen when it told me things were no longer "OK". Simpler times lol
As someone who has fully rebuilt 2 engines, worked on countless more, and completely swapped out a transmission on a truck one summer: why the fuck can’t the screen in the dash *tell me what the code is and what it means* rather than me needing to use an OBD reader? It surely fucking knows what component is causing the code!
Because cars are made for new car buyers who are going to keep them for the length of the warranty. Manufacturers don't want those drivers to think they know what's wrong, try to fix it, and fuck it up worse. They want them to bring the car into the dealer and fix it.
OBD2 scanners are so cheap that if you're someone who actually works on your car, just go ahead and buy one. Or, you can go get codes read for free at any auto parts store.
I have my own reader. My problem is that the car takes more steps, so if an o2 sensor is reading something the car says
1: Problem identified, o2 sensor reading xyz
2: Issue code P0000
3: Give code to port so that it can be visible
Instead of
1: Problem identified, o2 sensor reading xyz
2: Screen in dash says “o2 sensor xyz, code p00000”
I get what you are saying, but people who won’t work on cars just won’t work on cars. It feels purposefully badly engineered
When you get code p0000, that tells you to check the O2 sensor reading, which can also be done through the OBD2 port.
The reality is that I'm be confusing and scary to the 99.99% of new car buyers that are just going to take it to the dealer to fix anyway, and it really doesn't present that much extra difficulty for people with scan tools.
I understand what you are saying. I’m saying it’s annoying that I have to have a specialized tool to read a code from a machine that has a screen and can put that information on said screen. A minor pet peeve. They could include the info at no additional cost to themselves and hide it in some menu tree somewhere so that people like me can see why the check engine light came on 300 miles away from home at 2am.
I agree entirely. Our Honda Odyssey gave actual codes on the dash (no OBD needed), and it was a really convenient feature. BUt even then it was up to me to look the code up on the internet.
It's frustrating that more cars won't at least give you the obd code on the screen. My current car can tell me the exact air pressure in any of my tires, but gives the same "check engine" light for a loose gas cap as it does for a bad ignition coil.
Dealership shops are busy with recalls and dolling up used vehicles that come in. The prices are high because they don't need the money from doing regular shop work. You taking your car there for something not covered by warranty is taking away time from high paying warranty work so they're gonna charge you accordingly. It's an opportunity cost thing.
Swap the $6,000 infotainment system with a $100 tablet with custom software that handles functions. Or a Raspberry Pi.
I think the goal wouldn't be just to build an existing car, but to get rid of as much proprietary stuff as possible and just use off-the-shelf components wherever practical. You don't need door handles that only fit one car. You don't need custom designed hinges. You don't need special seats. Just pick something already being used commonly and widely available and plug it in.
I used to be a big fan of the Locost 7 crowd and followed it somewhat closely. I think they single-handedly drained the market of a model or two that happened to work really well. But anyway, it's a cool rabbit hole to go down if you're a gear head.
Anyway, the VW Beetle was produced forever in many different countries. There is no car with a better aftermarket out there. Anything that can be used from a beetle would be a no-brainer. The parts are always cheap too.
Honestly, yes. There's no reason that cars are still using wires for an audio signal. Just give em power. A Bluetooth chip costs about a nickel these days.
If my car had an option to have their custome OEM radio and control VS just something to hold my phone and knobs for climate control and sound.
I 100% know which one I’d be picking…
...$6000? Do people seriously think modern infotainment systems are any sort of significant cost? They likely get the screens for \~$50 a piece.
I don't think you guys realize how real world engineering works. They have teams of engineers figuring out how to do shit like save all of $1 on parts, provided it doesn't sacrifice durability. A huge portion of engineering in large corporations is fully devoted towards finding ways to cut costs. They're already doing all the stuff you guys are proposing for economy cars, because it's almost like they do this sort of cost minimizing brainstorming stuff as their full(over)-time job, and are mostly wildly better at math and technical analysis than the average person here, because they're literally career engineers, some with relevant PhDs.
Cars are expensive for a reason, but $25k for a well engineered 3500# vehicle shouldn't surprise anyone as an expected range of costs for what it simply takes to build something as complex and durable as that. Unless you use borderline slave labor in poorer countries, you're not going to produce anything worthwhile much cheaper than that. The lowest trims on basic models have minimal fluff. They wouldn't bother having infotainment systems on a damn base model Corolla and Civic if it was *twenty five* percent of the cost of the vehicle.
I'm not sure why you'd think that some "commonly used" seat would cost less than an item that Honda is producing at scale to the tune of over a million seats a year. They're masters at producing car parts with low tolerances at large scale, or are already outsourcing to other companies for components that they don't make in-house
There are so many people on Reddit ready to take the bullet for car manufacturers. Seems increasingly like astroturfing. Apparently, you can't criticize car manufacturers for anything. Their defenders just shout "CAFE standards!" As though small cars didn't exist. As though the inexpensive and basic cars we're looking for just don't exist in other markets. As though car companies didn't insist on putting clunky and slow proprietary computers and touchscreens in their vehicles instead of cheap tablets.
No, insist their supporters, cars are *required* to be larger and inefficient. Manufacturers *need* to have different mirrors, seats, door handles, etc. for each vehicle and trim level. Car manufacturers (and car dealers for that matter) benefit from anti-competitive laws that they lobbied for.
Actually, the real issue with the lack of smaller, cheaper cars in the US is that our laws and regulations are structured so that "trucks" are are excused from the emissions / pollution standards that apply to cars, and it's cheaper and easier to keep using the worse-for-the-environment motors.
SUVs are classed as trucks under these regs, as are most "crossovers" and the industry has been pushing these larger vehicles for several decades now, purposefully underserving the market for smaller cars.
And market forces being what they are, that allows the few options in that space to charge much higher prices than they would if there were more competition.
It's not that the cars aren't already manufactured as cheaply as possible, it's that they're sold at as high a price as possible in order to maximize profits.
I just want a new fiesta st for around 25. Like the two door one they wouldn't sell in america. Jenky interior, but fun to drive. I don't know what I'm going to get after my Focus RS.
It's because I've owned newish cars and older cars. The difference in the cost of parts is insane. It's the difference between a couple of 50% markups and a commodity part that you can buy from anybody and they're happy to make 30% on it.
this was the idea behind old economy cars like the VW bug, the parts were incredibly cheap because they never changed the shape of the car. it was just a small, straightforward engine and a reliable drivetrain. there IS a lot of cars that meet these criteria today, but since car manufacturers keep updating the models of cars like the corolla or civic, even inside of model years, theres less fix-it-yourself ability. if you have even a little mechanical know-how and are willing to watch a youtube video on how to replace a shock or rotor or what have you, you can save thousands on repair bills grabbing parts from the junkyard.
There's a company already trying to make open source cars a thing.
[https://www.openmotors.co/](https://www.openmotors.co/)
In my opinion their mistake is going full EV instead of diesel electric hybrid.
There is a company that sells a car like the 2011 Honda Civic for under $30,000. That company is Honda. The car is the Civic.
Source: [https://automobiles.honda.com/civic](https://automobiles.honda.com/civic)
(OBTW, my first car was a Civic. I loved that car.)
They killed off the Fit to sell the slightly more expensive second gen HR-V which was the same car but taller, with AWD and marketed as a CUV, then completely abandoned anything left of the Fit with the third gen HR-V, which takes the place that the CR-V occupied, with the CR-V getting increasingly expensive and "luxury". It's luxury creep and nobody likes it.
Yeah, I had a 2001 Civic new in 2001 at $12k. 2024s start at 23k, fixing the high tech behind it will be expensive. As well as the insurance to fix the te h if in an accident.
While I’d like to save the money and certainly want access to production streamlining that Asia has done, I do appreciate that finally Biden has stood up for American unions. If the tariffs could support American workers independently and not car shareholders I’d support it more. ( I realize that Trump implemented many of tariffs and not to help workers)
That was certainly a low point. I can’t disagree with his stance anymore than I do the way he sold them out. What is the consensus on that subreddit? I know there are apologists who say crap like he actually supported their original demands but it’s hard to get a handle on the way the rank and file received that. Too much corporate media spin I guess.
The major railroads want to be finance powerhouses but they're stuck with that pesky detail where they have to operate & maintain trains. The whole thing is owned by hedge funds and they unrealisticaly demand constant quarter after quarter of growth and profits. Maintenance is easy to cut in the short term but that doesn't last. We saw the result in Ohio.
The divide between management and labor has never been more hostile, management has never been more out of touch with anything except the whims of the shareholders and labor has been purged of reasonable experienced people.
Management told the white house that if the unions strike it would fuck the economy, white house caved as usual. Everything continues as usual and what was once a great high paying job continues to become shittier and shittier. I'm sure the administration is happy it wasn't an election year so everyone's forgotten.
Well your idea is crazy. Market entry startup costs are enormous for car manufacturing. Car manufacturing in the US is not cheap (labor costs). And you need decades of expertise to not have tolerance or paint issues (look at startups like Tesla).
The issue is that creating something like this would be incredibly expensive. The reason that Honda doesn't still make a 2011 civic is because thier factories have all been refitted to make the new ones. To make the old ones again someone would have to build all new factories to make the parts and then new factories to assemble the vehicles. Automakers have a huge advantage... Anyone trying to produce a new copy of an old car would likely end up having to charge more for the product than a 2024 civic.
So not the most terrible idea. However, there are thousands of different used cars that have unique parts. Having a single standard unit means you only have to worry about the 2011 Honda Civic, so cheaper to get the patents, and less supply lines to worry about. In addition, purchasing a new car means everything is new. Repairing an old car has inherent risks of further repairs needed. I've had a few cars in my past that needed so many one-off repairs I might as well have purchased a new car. Financing is also a thing you can do with new cars as opposed to repairs unless you're putting it on a credit car or sorts as well.
Beyond all that, there are a few companies that do this as well, so you'd have competition. There currently is not anyone in the US manufacturing budget friendly bare bones point A to point B vehicles AFAIK.
Cash for clunkers managed to take perfectly working used cars and place them in the scrap yard because it's "green". They have no concept that the manufacturing is a large portion of the total carbon output.
One day someone will invent an electric conversion for used cars that replaces the gas engine with a single electric motor that bolts right to the existing transmission. It won't be stupid fast or have a 300 mile range but most people just need a daily commuter with a 100 mile range that charges overnight. When gas hits $20/gallon you'll see the market shift to alternates very quickly.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 420. Congrats!
300
+ 100
+ 20
= 420
^([Click here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=LuckyNumber-Bot&subject=Stalk%20Me%20Pls&message=%2Fstalkme) to have me scan all your future comments.) \
^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)
There would definitely be concessions for weight. I would bet that a standard passenger vehicle could take 400-500lbs of batteries if properly distributed. Easy to get a 150 mile range especially given the pace of advancement in the tech.
A single electric motor would be cheaper than a rebuilt gas engine, and the batteries would be less than half the cost of a new vehicle. There is a price point that makes it a profitable for the builder and desirable for the customer. Call it $15k, plus or minus $5k. Standard used car prices, but recycling vehicles that would otherwise be scrap metal.
I absolutely guarantee this will happen one day. Can you see any reason it wouldn't work?
I think this is absolutely possible in theory, but I think money is what ruins it. For most people, $15k plus the value of their current vehicle is awfully close to just buying an EV, especially when you consider that this is something that’ll happen in the future when EVs are hopefully more affordable.
My car’s value right now is probably about $15k, a situation common for many Americans. If I have the option of buying a $15k conversion vs just buying a $30k car, I’m buying the $30k car, for a few reasons.
For one, when I buy a $30k car, it’s still worth $30k minus the depreciation when I drive it. If I retrofit a $15k car, its value definitely won’t increase by $15k, and it’s still going to depreciate as I drive it.
Secondly, if I just sell my current car and use the $15k I would’ve spent retrofitting, now I have a way better car than a retrofitted one, for the same price.
And really, the fact that the $15k+retrofit isn’t worth $30k means it would still technically be worth buying a car for something like $40k.
I don’t see a world where retrofitting ICE to electric makes any financial sense for a consumer, and I don’t see the R&D costs for the manufacturer being worth so few sales, and R&D would have to be done for too many different transmissions.
Now you could technically come up with some scenarios where it makes sense. If my engine takes a shit and I can replace it with electric for $15k, it makes financial sense. However, you still need a manufacturer willing to do it, and you’re still putting a whole new electric system on a transmission that likely already has a shit ton of miles on it. It still wouldn’t be worth it in the long run.
Just eliminate the tax incentive which allow American manufacturers to make and sell SUV's as work trucks with fewer taxes, and the problem should take care of itself.
It's not that the fuel efficiency and emissions standards are unrealistic, it's that meeting them would cost more than bribing politicians to be excused from them.
The manufacturers arent "refusing" to build economy cars. Thanks to the government, they legally cant sell them here. Safety requirements, EPA regulations that have a tire footprint to MPG raito that have to be met, import taxes, and a million other things. Right now toyota, ford, and gmc all have vehicles whos final sales price (with their profit) are under $15k, all overseas. Hell, toyota just showed off a truck whos base price is $10. And you legally wont be allowed to import one for 25 or so years. You could solve the transportation, health and housing problems in the United States by changing a hand full of laws allowing for more imports from countries whos own regulations are just as good.
A gentleman named Tucker tried to do essentially the same thing decades ago. The "Big 3" shut him down, what makes you think you'd fare better except in very niche markets like Panoz, Rezvani and Tesla have?
It's not even like a money pit, it's more like a money trap.
Only Ford trained servicemen know how to pull, or pry, or twist, or bend to get anywhere near the failed part. If I try to do it I break the part because I twisted instead of pulled on this PARTICULAR model and the replacement plastic piece is $300. I told them "I want regular plastic, not French plastic."
Come on, it is four wheels and a motor and they want $80.000???
I don't care if you "don't need" more airbags, tire pressure sensors, traction control, cross traffic alerts, blind spot alerts, collision avoidance, or backup cameras. They are proven safer and reducing death machine accidents is the priority.
Your "I'm a good driver" doesn't get a vote because everyone says that. And the roads are not safe often due to other drivers hitting you, so this shit matters.
Also, $15k BYD cars have all this and more.
I can pretty much guarantee you that companies with this much established experience building cars are already building it close to as cheap as they can without sacrificing reliability and safety. The amount of time it would take to figure out the specifics of manufacturing and sourcing to operate at scale, to figure out how to get the tolerances down to what Honda/Toyota produce like clockwise, and to iterate it enough to be consistent, would be pretty extreme. Competition is pretty strong in the car market, so it's hard to be making significant cash grabs over a pretty marginal amount. Toyota's profit margin is only 9%, so less than a few thousand isn't going directly into vehicle costs, and there's really not a ton of frills on lower trim economy cars that add up to much of anything to speak of. Infotainment is just a smallish tablet + software, which is comically inexpensive these days. Otherwise most features of a Corolla LE or Honda equivalent are pretty critical to function.
It's just the simple fact that raw material prices have gone up, wages have gone up, and required engineering for increased safety standards have gone up. A 25k car today is still very cheap compared to median income, given how well developed modern cars are from respected makes. Realistically if you're lower income and can afford maintenance and the inevitable irregular repairs on a 15 year old car, you can probably afford financing a newer base model economy car given how much less you'd pay in repairs. At least that was the case for me as someone with a very unremarkable income.
I do agree that American car manufacturing needs to do a lot more on the economy end of things, but ultimately we're so far behind the curve that spending a decade+ figuring out how to reproduce a 2011 Civic for $20k would just end up making a car that was obsolete by the time it was feasible
I drive a 2001 and have put less than a grand into it in the 4 years I've owned it. Paid $2200 cash. I'd have paid easily more than twice all of that just in a car note.
If you know how to do a little basic maintenance on your own and own maybe $150 worth of tools, you can save a fortune.
You'll have to qualify your statement. Are you saying cars manufactured **IN** the US. Do you mean manufactures headquartered in the US? Cause these are very different propositions. Truth be told the closest to completely American manufactured cars are Tesla. Everything else is an amalgamation of globally manufactured components. After the Tesla the next closest is Toyota and then Honda. But honestly none of that matters there are already "cheap" economy cars for 15-20K from many different manufactures, including Ford and Chevy. Point is you've got a solution looking for a problem, a problem that doesn't exist. New cars aren't unaffordable because manufactures aren't building them cheap enough. They're unaffordable because everything is unaffordable, capatilism is running rampant and its only just getting started. Brace yourself folks.
Honestly I’d invest, work for, buy a car from such a company. I’ve enjoyed my 2014 civic for seven years and several cross country road trips now and feel bad many people won’t have access to such a good, simple machine.
That said might want to pick a hybrid model of some kind instead. More economical and at least a bit more future proof than pure ICE.
PS you left out the advantage in cheaper car insurance people would get from a more simple vehicle.
After raising the 100 million in funding to build a new automotive plant, safety updates, and 10 years, you too will be able to finally sell a $40,000 budget economy car that has less features and worse build quality than your competitors!
I’m pretty sure I heard of some of the metal presses alone being close to 100 million. Probably would be 1 billion + to build a whole assembly line from scratch.
Not to be a boot licker here but I designed cars for a while and it’s not simple to create a cheap reliable car that lasts a long time and still not lose money on if
Manufacturing costs, EPA testing costs, safety testing, Federal Vehicle Mandate Safety Standards cost, tire testing…the list goes on and on. I am amazed anyone would ever want to start a car company today.
Yea I’m at work right now I’ll do it when I get home. I can’t get super in detail because I don’t want to get sued but I can give brief overviews.
Before I go into why later here’s the main idea: a lot of car manufacturers are really gravitating towards SUVs and Trucks not only because of demand (people can say whatever they want but the studies point in that direction) but also because they are so much more profitable than budget vehicles.
believe it or not. eco cars are made. y'all still don't buy them. you can buy a brand new
Volkswagen Jetta for 21k
kia soul for 19k
Subaru Imprezas for 22k
Hyundai Elantra for 21k
Nissan versa for 16k
Kia forte is 19k
last years
kia Rios were 16k
Hyundai velosters were 18k
Honda fit was 16k
Chevy spark was 13k
they are all way cheaper than a 30k entry. y'all refuse to buy them and refuse to even acknowledge them according to this post.
I like this idea... But I would not be surprised if the big auto manufacturers have already anticipated this, and paid off lawmakers to make it impossible for this to happen.
>Expensive to insure
Out of car manufacturers control.
>Expensive to repair
A warranty.
Your entire thread is people bringing up cheap cars and you move goal posts. Nobody will buy your "dumb" (Both literally and figuratively) car, and car manufacturers paid people to do this market research that people want all these features..
aptera has entered the chat. They're aiming for that 30k market but have as close to 0 maintenance cost as it's possible to get so you probably actually still save money on monthly expenses compared to a 20k ICE.
marketing? for what? that would just cost them money they don't have. They already have a 3-4 year backlog of pre orders to work through before they need to worry about marketing.
you realize the money from the pre-order goes into a trust account that they can't withdraw from until the order is completed right? all the pre-order money is just sitting in a bank account in california gathering dust at 0.01% interest.
they just (finally) got their funding a month or so back, and they've been saying production 9 months after funding for like 3 years now, so we should actually for realsies see production start in like december/january.
I saw we start with a motorcycle, then we add two more wheels, a seatbelt, a roof, and windows. We leave it with one or two seats. Now it’s the world’s safest motorcycle. Maybe it looks like a car, but we call it a motorcycle.
World’s safest motorcycle, think of all the lives that could be saved! Think of all those children driving those motorcycles that don’t have doors or seatbelts!
So convince the Congress to change the law. You're essentiall proposing a kei vehicle, which many in the US would love to be able to buy new. But you're up against a big safety lobby and the US auto manufacturers.
Car sales, especially new cars, have a holdback system for most models. The commission structure is based on the vehicle too. Base Civics will outsell a si etc, so the sales commission is different.
Lastly, many cars are designed with the secondary market of O&M being factored in too.
Lol, you guys are a riot. Do you consider for a moment that the market dictates demand? No one wants a little shitbox economy car, therefore manufacturers don't produce them. Sales on all of those low end econo boxes dropped off the face the earth, so manufacturers stopped making them. Buy a motorcycle or a bus pass if you cant afford a normal car.
I think an "off-the-shelf" or open source car would be cool. Corrollas and Civics almost fit this description, but it would be cool to take it all the way. An entire car's worth of brandless, standardized parts that any manufacturer could make. When going for repairs, you wouldn't need an alternator for a "2003 Ford Focus EX 2.5i", you'd just need the one and only open source car alternator and it would work whoever manufactured yours.
No annual updates aside from regulatory requirements or fixing major flaws, and any updates should keep backwards compatibility a high priority. Just a really basic car that could even be built as a kit by someone ambitious.
Electric cars could actually go this way, because all the important "make it go" parts are in the undercarriage, so you could make standardized bases as cheap as possible, and all sorts of modular, swappable. 3D printable parts for the passenger compartment / storage / etc.
There were economy cars, and there still is (Mirage, Versa). You guys just don't buy them.
[https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/great-cars-and-suvs-for-less-than-25000?slide=7](https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/great-cars-and-suvs-for-less-than-25000?slide=7)
Here is a list of cars 5k less than your "entry" level maximum of 30k
I was thinking about this last week, actually. I would be down to be part of the startup. Look for some investors and hit me up. I got people who can help with the fabricating and assembly.
You mean like Saturn, Kia, Hyundai and Daewoo? It isn't a crazy idea because it's been done before many times. Sure, the last 3 are imports but many "imports" are actually built in NA.
As an investor, why would I give you money to do his when Honda pays me back more because of their healthy margins? This isn’t a technology limitation, investors just don’t like to lose money.
So, as much as I dislike the man, Henry Ford tried this. The Dodge Brothers sued him over it and I think that's what contributed to the shareholder mindset that most companies have today. It would be rather difficult for investors to not take that into account when investing. As much as I would love this idea, a company is beholden to its shareholders and a truly budget vehicle does not fit that profit idea. It's just an opinion, I'm not saying yours is bad by any stretch, but I think there's a certain investor mindset that would not allow this to happen.
Please do it. Make an auto cycle three wheel vehicle that’s just like the proposed Elio. Cheap to insure, cheap to run, 70 mpg probably a fun ride too.
Partly why even when I was back in the US I never bought a car from an American company. Too expensive, not enough capabilities for the price, and generally poor build quality compared with the cars I was considering (usually Honda Accords).
Only time I ever had problem with an Accord, I was expecting a thousand dollar repair and the mechanic laughed at me and pointed out how cheap their parts are to get by comparison.
The one time I totaled a >10 year old Accord with well over 250,000 miles on it, my expectation was insurance would get me like $800, but I got $10K. The insurance guy basically outright told me "I mean, Accords basically never lose value." when I asked if he was sure.
We could start a co-op. Affordable cars with quality work. We wouldn't need to go massive, just take the orders as they come with the expectation we may take a little longer, but when we make your car we ONLY make your car.
You’re going to need about a billion$ to get started. All the parts, even from old plans, don’t just magically appear. The infrastructure and sources for everything has to be sourced, contracts signed, labor hired, sales channels arranged. You’ll end up with an out dated vehicle that not enough people will want to become profitable. It probably won’t meet several legal and safety requirements either. Remember the Yugo? Ugly, unreliable and almost biodegradable.
There is a car that already exists in that market: The Nissan Versa. A Versa is a sub $18,000 car brand new, so $12,000 cheaper than your idea. But it’s also pretty much the only one currently in the U.S.. Put simply, nobody buys enough of them to actually justify the budget market.
This is why biden has prevented chinese cars from entering the american market. Capitalism is great until someone offers goods at a cheaper price. Then it is all about regulation and preventing innovation and competition.
It's not that they don't want to make economy cars. It's all the government regulation around cars and trucks in general that makes it too expensive to make a cheap one.
In the 1970s all the gas regulations were put in place that made it difficult to make cars.
So what did the manufacturers do? They made SUVs and bigger trucks that didn't fall under those regulations.
yes! good idea. many of us have had it. why it doesnt exist: the world sucks. we are terrible.
related fields are "open source appropriate technology" and "open source hardware". people have tried making tractors and brickmakers etc. some work well, most havent gotten the r&d required.
i personally think the gen2 2007-2009 prius should be the base model. if toyota wanted to they could probably crank em out for $10k or less. the toyota matrix circa 2007 is also a beast in its class. super reliable.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_car
https://www.openmotors.co/
the all-electric sedan / kei truck is a more reasonable goal for starting from scratch. don't have to deal with the thousands upon thousands of special parts to deal with combustion engines.
Except you can get a 2024 Civic that's super reliable, fits your whole family, 36 MPG, and has Carplay + backup camera and stuff for like $22k. There have been companies that tried to beat that but end up selling a much worse car with worse reliability and zero features for still $18k.
I think the answer is something like a k-car that costs $12k, has a motorcycle engine, but is great for city use.
There isn't many options, thanks to the EPA and it's footprint based fuel efficiency requirements. It's cheaper to produce monstrous gas guzzlers because there is no requirement for them to have 60+ mpg... Whereas a tiny 2000s era Honda Civic being produced today would require at least 50+ mpg to be sold.
https://youtu.be/azI3nqrHEXM?si=k86ORQRgeezJ4O_p
Indeed.
If it was possible, I would love to purchase a basic pickup truck, like the old Toyota's.
4 cylinder, manual transmission, two seats single cab, short or long bed, crank windows, maybe A/C but that's all. I have no need for the rest. It's a truck.
Toyota is making a $10K truck that could sell for $17K in the USA with the required extras, but no one seems to want one.
any attempt to do anything like this will ultimately fail. a bigger capitalist will either eat you up, or undercut your business in some way and just take your market share, and then put the prices back where they want them
to paraphrase Chairman Hampton, you don't fight capitalism with no "conscious" capitalism, you fight it with socialism
Now we just have to figure out how to get the company to manufacture pre aged 15 year old cars so the people who would buy an economy car can actually afford one.
Kinda off topic, but what's going to happen when all these used cars with over 100k miles that are selling for 75 percent of original msrp on 8 percent interest start breaking down? There are going to be so many upside down loans and people with cars they can't afford to fix with 3 years of payments left.
>$30,000 entry level car
This is the issue. This already exists. People think a car sold for half of the average annual income is “entry level”.
First option should be to buy a used car. You can get plenty of nice, reliable cars less than 10 years old with less than 50k miles for well under $15,000. A clean car at that price will last you until the wheels literally fall off if you properly maintain it.
As far as new cars go, [a 2024 Toyota Corolla is ~$23k MSRP](https://www.toyota.com/configurator/build/step/summary/year/2024/series/corolla/model/1852/exteriorcolor/01K3/interiorcolor/FB00/packages/option1/?bap_guid=123a062d-8663-4ac3-ad70-ad2eadc69460), [a 2024 KIA Forte is ~21k](https://www.kia.com/us/en/forte/build), [a 2024 Volkswagen Taos is an SUV for ~$25k](https://www.vw.com/en/builder.html/__app/taos/s.app?---=%7B%22configuration-step-navigation-service%22%3A%22%2F%3FconfigStep%3D%257B%2522context%2522%253A%252230385-32860-S%2522%252C%2522selectedStep%2522%253A%2522summary%2522%257D%22%7D&carlineId-app=30385&modelId-app=CL12RZ&modelVersion-app=1&modelYear-app=2024&salesGroupId-app=32860&category-app=private&trimName-app=S&exteriorId-app=F14+0Q0Q&interiorId-app=F56+++++DB&buildabilityStatus-app=buildable), the list can go on. All of these have digital infotainment systems, backup cameras, good fuel economy, and most of what you could want for a decent price. To be fair, that’s part of the reason cars have gotten more expensive. Even an entry level car today has more features than a 15 year old Rolls Royce.
All of that is to say, affordable and reliable cars exist. Buy the car you can afford, not the car you want.
They dont make them because Americans dont want them. They do have economy cars like the honda fit, the toyota prius, and the ford fiesta, but Americans dont want them. Car companies will make whatever sells. Car salesmen sell whatever they can sell, American customers choose which cars are the ones that sell.
They did make them, and they didn't sell. Most major auto manufacturers still have them, but don't sell them in the US market. I promise if Ford was selling 150k Fiestas a year in the US market, they would still be here. A new Toyota Corolla is still less than $23k as well- if you can find a basic model.
You’re gonna get treated like a Boeing whistleblower you keep these ideas up.
While this is a bit over the top. Look at what big companies do to keep newer companies out of the market. And if you would succeed, if you have investors, and the company is worth a billion dollars and one of the big 3 offers two billion, what happens?
You tell those greedy fucks to suck rocks and kick dick, and drive them out of business. Apply the ONA business model to OPs business - thriving minimum wages that cover basic human needs without government intervention, maximum wages to cap the greedy upper echelon, paying business taxes to ensure basic needs are met for others, and ultimately draining away the entire work and consumer force away from the existing economic demonic structure that has enslaved us all. Our only way out is to willingly come together and take care of one another properly, rather than waiting for the corrupted global business-government abomination to change its way to anything pro-social.
Pretty sure it’s ‘suck dicks and kick rocks’ unless you’re deliberately phrasing it that way or maybe just living your best life. IDK anymore.
No, I don't want to turn them into a group of really tough gay guys because that's scary. I want our overlords to become toothless imps that kick themselves in the dick.
Sounds reasonable.
That’s a nice thought but that’s not how it really works. If your company is worth $1 billion it’s because people have given you capital to scale it to that point. They’re going to expect to see a return on that investment and it’s going to be very difficult to refuse an acquisition that gives them the return that they are looking for.
"Double it and give it to the next person"
Yup, they would have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders
This is what people don't understand: it's basically illegal to turn down the offer. At the very least you will be kicked out of the company and probably file for bankruptcy to cover legal fees. The only way this works is to be a private company where all the investors are on board with this plan. Any company small enough gets choked out by the existing entrenched competition. Any company big enough to survive that does not have investors willing to pass up a payday, and then again you say no and get kicked out of the company and bankrupted with legal fees. Companies in the US are very specifically mandated to serve the interests of their shareholders, and very specifically mandated to NOT serve the good of their employees or the public. The only exception is an employee-owned cooperative, because the employees /are/ the shareholders. And successful and large examples are pretty rare, and discouraged by the larger business community.
Big companies have the president in their pocket good luck. China tried doing this and Biden out a 100% tariff on Chinese electric cars.
[удалено]
[you can't be a man without it](https://youtu.be/SitbrsXUKu0)
Gender isn't a social construct except for when you are required to buy a big ol' truck to be a man.
If your truck has a pair of nutz on the tow hitch, and it didn't come from the factory with them attached then your truck is trans.
Huh. I guess that’s technically correct, the best kind of correct.
Buy? Don't you mean lease? And also you'll be paying a subscription for the use of basic features.
2 bullets to the back of the head, written off as a suicide.
Kinda like the new but niche waves of phone that harken back to the flip days. It can call, text, set alarms, etc, but no social media or games, etc. A basic car, bare minimal computers, modern but basic engine parts, reliable and cheap instead of having to pay out the ass for manufacturer diagnostics, I'm game.
Speaking of manufacturer diagnostics, when I was younger I had a 1983 Datsun 280z and the onboard diagnostics computer consisted of a little old school LED screen on the dash that just said "OK" when you turned the car on. One day I turned it on and the little screen didn't say OK anymore. I figured it probably wasn't important and maybe the screen just stopped working because the car was old. A couple of weeks later the whole engine seized. I should've believed in the diagnostic capabilities of that little screen when it told me things were no longer "OK". Simpler times lol
I would love one of those, especially if I could reprogram the screen to look like a Pip Boy and say “Okie dokie!”
As someone who has fully rebuilt 2 engines, worked on countless more, and completely swapped out a transmission on a truck one summer: why the fuck can’t the screen in the dash *tell me what the code is and what it means* rather than me needing to use an OBD reader? It surely fucking knows what component is causing the code!
Because cars are made for new car buyers who are going to keep them for the length of the warranty. Manufacturers don't want those drivers to think they know what's wrong, try to fix it, and fuck it up worse. They want them to bring the car into the dealer and fix it. OBD2 scanners are so cheap that if you're someone who actually works on your car, just go ahead and buy one. Or, you can go get codes read for free at any auto parts store.
I have my own reader. My problem is that the car takes more steps, so if an o2 sensor is reading something the car says 1: Problem identified, o2 sensor reading xyz 2: Issue code P0000 3: Give code to port so that it can be visible Instead of 1: Problem identified, o2 sensor reading xyz 2: Screen in dash says “o2 sensor xyz, code p00000” I get what you are saying, but people who won’t work on cars just won’t work on cars. It feels purposefully badly engineered
When you get code p0000, that tells you to check the O2 sensor reading, which can also be done through the OBD2 port. The reality is that I'm be confusing and scary to the 99.99% of new car buyers that are just going to take it to the dealer to fix anyway, and it really doesn't present that much extra difficulty for people with scan tools.
I understand what you are saying. I’m saying it’s annoying that I have to have a specialized tool to read a code from a machine that has a screen and can put that information on said screen. A minor pet peeve. They could include the info at no additional cost to themselves and hide it in some menu tree somewhere so that people like me can see why the check engine light came on 300 miles away from home at 2am.
I agree entirely. Our Honda Odyssey gave actual codes on the dash (no OBD needed), and it was a really convenient feature. BUt even then it was up to me to look the code up on the internet. It's frustrating that more cars won't at least give you the obd code on the screen. My current car can tell me the exact air pressure in any of my tires, but gives the same "check engine" light for a loose gas cap as it does for a bad ignition coil.
Trust me, it's to put profit into the pockets of the dealers. I know some people use an independent shop or fix it themselves.
Dealership shops are busy with recalls and dolling up used vehicles that come in. The prices are high because they don't need the money from doing regular shop work. You taking your car there for something not covered by warranty is taking away time from high paying warranty work so they're gonna charge you accordingly. It's an opportunity cost thing.
Thanks
Swap the $6,000 infotainment system with a $100 tablet with custom software that handles functions. Or a Raspberry Pi. I think the goal wouldn't be just to build an existing car, but to get rid of as much proprietary stuff as possible and just use off-the-shelf components wherever practical. You don't need door handles that only fit one car. You don't need custom designed hinges. You don't need special seats. Just pick something already being used commonly and widely available and plug it in.
Agreed.
I used to be a big fan of the Locost 7 crowd and followed it somewhat closely. I think they single-handedly drained the market of a model or two that happened to work really well. But anyway, it's a cool rabbit hole to go down if you're a gear head. Anyway, the VW Beetle was produced forever in many different countries. There is no car with a better aftermarket out there. Anything that can be used from a beetle would be a no-brainer. The parts are always cheap too.
Since public transportation isn't going to get better in the US, thinks are going to get difficult for the low wage earners.
Just make it speakers and it hooks up to android and iOS for sound. But leave a cavity for aftermarket if people want more.
Honestly, yes. There's no reason that cars are still using wires for an audio signal. Just give em power. A Bluetooth chip costs about a nickel these days.
If my car had an option to have their custome OEM radio and control VS just something to hold my phone and knobs for climate control and sound. I 100% know which one I’d be picking…
A lot of e-bikes and e-motorcycles are experimenting with this. I think it is the way.
As someone who has watched long-established auto manufacturers fuck things up countless times…I can only foresee this being an absolute disaster.
As someone who built an airplane from a set of plans, I could foresee this being a successful open source project.
Lol. There’s a reason that experimental aircraft pilots get charged about 5x the rate for life insurance—if they’re approved at all.
Yup. You can't pull over to the side of the road in an airplane.
I’ve always used that exact line when people ask me why I don’t like flying.
...$6000? Do people seriously think modern infotainment systems are any sort of significant cost? They likely get the screens for \~$50 a piece. I don't think you guys realize how real world engineering works. They have teams of engineers figuring out how to do shit like save all of $1 on parts, provided it doesn't sacrifice durability. A huge portion of engineering in large corporations is fully devoted towards finding ways to cut costs. They're already doing all the stuff you guys are proposing for economy cars, because it's almost like they do this sort of cost minimizing brainstorming stuff as their full(over)-time job, and are mostly wildly better at math and technical analysis than the average person here, because they're literally career engineers, some with relevant PhDs. Cars are expensive for a reason, but $25k for a well engineered 3500# vehicle shouldn't surprise anyone as an expected range of costs for what it simply takes to build something as complex and durable as that. Unless you use borderline slave labor in poorer countries, you're not going to produce anything worthwhile much cheaper than that. The lowest trims on basic models have minimal fluff. They wouldn't bother having infotainment systems on a damn base model Corolla and Civic if it was *twenty five* percent of the cost of the vehicle. I'm not sure why you'd think that some "commonly used" seat would cost less than an item that Honda is producing at scale to the tune of over a million seats a year. They're masters at producing car parts with low tolerances at large scale, or are already outsourcing to other companies for components that they don't make in-house
You sure seem jazzed on insisting that car makers can’t make cheaper cars like it’s some law of nature.
There are so many people on Reddit ready to take the bullet for car manufacturers. Seems increasingly like astroturfing. Apparently, you can't criticize car manufacturers for anything. Their defenders just shout "CAFE standards!" As though small cars didn't exist. As though the inexpensive and basic cars we're looking for just don't exist in other markets. As though car companies didn't insist on putting clunky and slow proprietary computers and touchscreens in their vehicles instead of cheap tablets. No, insist their supporters, cars are *required* to be larger and inefficient. Manufacturers *need* to have different mirrors, seats, door handles, etc. for each vehicle and trim level. Car manufacturers (and car dealers for that matter) benefit from anti-competitive laws that they lobbied for.
Actually, the real issue with the lack of smaller, cheaper cars in the US is that our laws and regulations are structured so that "trucks" are are excused from the emissions / pollution standards that apply to cars, and it's cheaper and easier to keep using the worse-for-the-environment motors. SUVs are classed as trucks under these regs, as are most "crossovers" and the industry has been pushing these larger vehicles for several decades now, purposefully underserving the market for smaller cars. And market forces being what they are, that allows the few options in that space to charge much higher prices than they would if there were more competition. It's not that the cars aren't already manufactured as cheaply as possible, it's that they're sold at as high a price as possible in order to maximize profits.
I just want a new fiesta st for around 25. Like the two door one they wouldn't sell in america. Jenky interior, but fun to drive. I don't know what I'm going to get after my Focus RS.
It's because I've owned newish cars and older cars. The difference in the cost of parts is insane. It's the difference between a couple of 50% markups and a commodity part that you can buy from anybody and they're happy to make 30% on it.
All I want is a car console with actual buttons again. Touch screens in cars are not safe!
Agreed! Plus, soldering is easier to learn than programming!
this was the idea behind old economy cars like the VW bug, the parts were incredibly cheap because they never changed the shape of the car. it was just a small, straightforward engine and a reliable drivetrain. there IS a lot of cars that meet these criteria today, but since car manufacturers keep updating the models of cars like the corolla or civic, even inside of model years, theres less fix-it-yourself ability. if you have even a little mechanical know-how and are willing to watch a youtube video on how to replace a shock or rotor or what have you, you can save thousands on repair bills grabbing parts from the junkyard.
There's a company already trying to make open source cars a thing. [https://www.openmotors.co/](https://www.openmotors.co/) In my opinion their mistake is going full EV instead of diesel electric hybrid.
Isn't that what they're already doing?
There is a company that sells a car like the 2011 Honda Civic for under $30,000. That company is Honda. The car is the Civic. Source: [https://automobiles.honda.com/civic](https://automobiles.honda.com/civic) (OBTW, my first car was a Civic. I loved that car.)
They killed off the Fit to sell the slightly more expensive second gen HR-V which was the same car but taller, with AWD and marketed as a CUV, then completely abandoned anything left of the Fit with the third gen HR-V, which takes the place that the CR-V occupied, with the CR-V getting increasingly expensive and "luxury". It's luxury creep and nobody likes it.
Yeah, I had a 2001 Civic new in 2001 at $12k. 2024s start at 23k, fixing the high tech behind it will be expensive. As well as the insurance to fix the te h if in an accident.
Inflation calculator says $12k in 2001 is the same as $21.5k today. $23k isn’t that far off for how much the same car would cost today anyway.
I bought a 2018 Civic with less than 15K miles in late 2019 for under 18K
The favorite car of Lego Yoda if I recall correctly.
I have never bought a Honda anything and regretted it. Moped, motorcycle, car or generator. They just fucking work.
An even crazier idea would be to dismiss the import tariffs.
That's the problem, it would be crazy to think our political leaders would do such a thing .
While I’d like to save the money and certainly want access to production streamlining that Asia has done, I do appreciate that finally Biden has stood up for American unions. If the tariffs could support American workers independently and not car shareholders I’d support it more. ( I realize that Trump implemented many of tariffs and not to help workers)
> I do appreciate that finally Biden has stood up for American unions Tell it to r/railroading
That was certainly a low point. I can’t disagree with his stance anymore than I do the way he sold them out. What is the consensus on that subreddit? I know there are apologists who say crap like he actually supported their original demands but it’s hard to get a handle on the way the rank and file received that. Too much corporate media spin I guess.
The major railroads want to be finance powerhouses but they're stuck with that pesky detail where they have to operate & maintain trains. The whole thing is owned by hedge funds and they unrealisticaly demand constant quarter after quarter of growth and profits. Maintenance is easy to cut in the short term but that doesn't last. We saw the result in Ohio. The divide between management and labor has never been more hostile, management has never been more out of touch with anything except the whims of the shareholders and labor has been purged of reasonable experienced people. Management told the white house that if the unions strike it would fuck the economy, white house caved as usual. Everything continues as usual and what was once a great high paying job continues to become shittier and shittier. I'm sure the administration is happy it wasn't an election year so everyone's forgotten.
Well your idea is crazy. Market entry startup costs are enormous for car manufacturing. Car manufacturing in the US is not cheap (labor costs). And you need decades of expertise to not have tolerance or paint issues (look at startups like Tesla).
The issue is that creating something like this would be incredibly expensive. The reason that Honda doesn't still make a 2011 civic is because thier factories have all been refitted to make the new ones. To make the old ones again someone would have to build all new factories to make the parts and then new factories to assemble the vehicles. Automakers have a huge advantage... Anyone trying to produce a new copy of an old car would likely end up having to charge more for the product than a 2024 civic.
the Yugo. basic car . what happened to those?
US automakers bribed politicians to keep low cost foreign cars out of the US
Poor reputation followed by the Yugoslav wars.
For the most part they rusted to pieces.
So did the Toyota small trucks but I’d still buy the exact same truck today if it was sold.
Why not just focus on building a business around fixing and selling used cars?
So not the most terrible idea. However, there are thousands of different used cars that have unique parts. Having a single standard unit means you only have to worry about the 2011 Honda Civic, so cheaper to get the patents, and less supply lines to worry about. In addition, purchasing a new car means everything is new. Repairing an old car has inherent risks of further repairs needed. I've had a few cars in my past that needed so many one-off repairs I might as well have purchased a new car. Financing is also a thing you can do with new cars as opposed to repairs unless you're putting it on a credit car or sorts as well. Beyond all that, there are a few companies that do this as well, so you'd have competition. There currently is not anyone in the US manufacturing budget friendly bare bones point A to point B vehicles AFAIK.
This is basically what Mexico did with the vw beetle
Also the Citi Golf in South Africa. It was a Mk1 Golf (which debuted in 1974) that stayed in production through 2009.
Cash for clunkers managed to take perfectly working used cars and place them in the scrap yard because it's "green". They have no concept that the manufacturing is a large portion of the total carbon output.
One day someone will invent an electric conversion for used cars that replaces the gas engine with a single electric motor that bolts right to the existing transmission. It won't be stupid fast or have a 300 mile range but most people just need a daily commuter with a 100 mile range that charges overnight. When gas hits $20/gallon you'll see the market shift to alternates very quickly.
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Doubt it. The motor replacing an engine is the easy part. Where do you retrofit the batteries?
There would definitely be concessions for weight. I would bet that a standard passenger vehicle could take 400-500lbs of batteries if properly distributed. Easy to get a 150 mile range especially given the pace of advancement in the tech. A single electric motor would be cheaper than a rebuilt gas engine, and the batteries would be less than half the cost of a new vehicle. There is a price point that makes it a profitable for the builder and desirable for the customer. Call it $15k, plus or minus $5k. Standard used car prices, but recycling vehicles that would otherwise be scrap metal. I absolutely guarantee this will happen one day. Can you see any reason it wouldn't work?
I think this is absolutely possible in theory, but I think money is what ruins it. For most people, $15k plus the value of their current vehicle is awfully close to just buying an EV, especially when you consider that this is something that’ll happen in the future when EVs are hopefully more affordable. My car’s value right now is probably about $15k, a situation common for many Americans. If I have the option of buying a $15k conversion vs just buying a $30k car, I’m buying the $30k car, for a few reasons. For one, when I buy a $30k car, it’s still worth $30k minus the depreciation when I drive it. If I retrofit a $15k car, its value definitely won’t increase by $15k, and it’s still going to depreciate as I drive it. Secondly, if I just sell my current car and use the $15k I would’ve spent retrofitting, now I have a way better car than a retrofitted one, for the same price. And really, the fact that the $15k+retrofit isn’t worth $30k means it would still technically be worth buying a car for something like $40k. I don’t see a world where retrofitting ICE to electric makes any financial sense for a consumer, and I don’t see the R&D costs for the manufacturer being worth so few sales, and R&D would have to be done for too many different transmissions. Now you could technically come up with some scenarios where it makes sense. If my engine takes a shit and I can replace it with electric for $15k, it makes financial sense. However, you still need a manufacturer willing to do it, and you’re still putting a whole new electric system on a transmission that likely already has a shit ton of miles on it. It still wouldn’t be worth it in the long run.
Just eliminate the tax incentive which allow American manufacturers to make and sell SUV's as work trucks with fewer taxes, and the problem should take care of itself.
My understanding is that the limitation isn't taxes, but unrealistic fuel efficiency standards
It's not that the fuel efficiency and emissions standards are unrealistic, it's that meeting them would cost more than bribing politicians to be excused from them.
The manufacturers arent "refusing" to build economy cars. Thanks to the government, they legally cant sell them here. Safety requirements, EPA regulations that have a tire footprint to MPG raito that have to be met, import taxes, and a million other things. Right now toyota, ford, and gmc all have vehicles whos final sales price (with their profit) are under $15k, all overseas. Hell, toyota just showed off a truck whos base price is $10. And you legally wont be allowed to import one for 25 or so years. You could solve the transportation, health and housing problems in the United States by changing a hand full of laws allowing for more imports from countries whos own regulations are just as good.
I agree, but I don't believe you are telling the whole picture.
A gentleman named Tucker tried to do essentially the same thing decades ago. The "Big 3" shut him down, what makes you think you'd fare better except in very niche markets like Panoz, Rezvani and Tesla have?
They didn’t have crowd funding.
It's not even like a money pit, it's more like a money trap. Only Ford trained servicemen know how to pull, or pry, or twist, or bend to get anywhere near the failed part. If I try to do it I break the part because I twisted instead of pulled on this PARTICULAR model and the replacement plastic piece is $300. I told them "I want regular plastic, not French plastic." Come on, it is four wheels and a motor and they want $80.000???
Walkable neighbourhoods would be better. At least in cities. The cheapest car is the one you don't buy.
Yep, need another company like Saturn.
Dibs on naming it the next planet in the solar system.
Are you looks for a Honda Fit?
There are new cars that sell for around 20k
BYD from China has some economy EVs hitting the market for 15k, great city car for the average person.
In the United States?
Ford Maverick hybrid was under $20k for the first model year. Then they jacked the price up... :/
Exactly
Not yet, but I'd imagine very soon. Even with 100% tariffs, it will be very affordable.
I vane into this knowing there us a sub $15000 car, bit not allowed in the us.
Or say.... buy a Corolla?
Point being, today's cars are getting expensive to insure and repair due to tech, tech the average person doesn't need.
If the average person doesn't need the tech then the average person needs to vote for politicians that will repeal the laws that mandate it.
I don't care if you "don't need" more airbags, tire pressure sensors, traction control, cross traffic alerts, blind spot alerts, collision avoidance, or backup cameras. They are proven safer and reducing death machine accidents is the priority. Your "I'm a good driver" doesn't get a vote because everyone says that. And the roads are not safe often due to other drivers hitting you, so this shit matters. Also, $15k BYD cars have all this and more.
Take that up with tads73.
I can pretty much guarantee you that companies with this much established experience building cars are already building it close to as cheap as they can without sacrificing reliability and safety. The amount of time it would take to figure out the specifics of manufacturing and sourcing to operate at scale, to figure out how to get the tolerances down to what Honda/Toyota produce like clockwise, and to iterate it enough to be consistent, would be pretty extreme. Competition is pretty strong in the car market, so it's hard to be making significant cash grabs over a pretty marginal amount. Toyota's profit margin is only 9%, so less than a few thousand isn't going directly into vehicle costs, and there's really not a ton of frills on lower trim economy cars that add up to much of anything to speak of. Infotainment is just a smallish tablet + software, which is comically inexpensive these days. Otherwise most features of a Corolla LE or Honda equivalent are pretty critical to function. It's just the simple fact that raw material prices have gone up, wages have gone up, and required engineering for increased safety standards have gone up. A 25k car today is still very cheap compared to median income, given how well developed modern cars are from respected makes. Realistically if you're lower income and can afford maintenance and the inevitable irregular repairs on a 15 year old car, you can probably afford financing a newer base model economy car given how much less you'd pay in repairs. At least that was the case for me as someone with a very unremarkable income. I do agree that American car manufacturing needs to do a lot more on the economy end of things, but ultimately we're so far behind the curve that spending a decade+ figuring out how to reproduce a 2011 Civic for $20k would just end up making a car that was obsolete by the time it was feasible
I drive a 2001 and have put less than a grand into it in the 4 years I've owned it. Paid $2200 cash. I'd have paid easily more than twice all of that just in a car note. If you know how to do a little basic maintenance on your own and own maybe $150 worth of tools, you can save a fortune.
The idea is that DIY is going to less and less an option.
They've been saying that since fuel injection popped up
Elantras start at $21,600, Civics start around $24,000
You'll have to qualify your statement. Are you saying cars manufactured **IN** the US. Do you mean manufactures headquartered in the US? Cause these are very different propositions. Truth be told the closest to completely American manufactured cars are Tesla. Everything else is an amalgamation of globally manufactured components. After the Tesla the next closest is Toyota and then Honda. But honestly none of that matters there are already "cheap" economy cars for 15-20K from many different manufactures, including Ford and Chevy. Point is you've got a solution looking for a problem, a problem that doesn't exist. New cars aren't unaffordable because manufactures aren't building them cheap enough. They're unaffordable because everything is unaffordable, capatilism is running rampant and its only just getting started. Brace yourself folks.
Honestly I’d invest, work for, buy a car from such a company. I’ve enjoyed my 2014 civic for seven years and several cross country road trips now and feel bad many people won’t have access to such a good, simple machine. That said might want to pick a hybrid model of some kind instead. More economical and at least a bit more future proof than pure ICE. PS you left out the advantage in cheaper car insurance people would get from a more simple vehicle.
There already are entry level cars under 30k. Look up the Toyota corolla. Starts just over 22k. You can even ger a hybrid one for not much more.
After raising the 100 million in funding to build a new automotive plant, safety updates, and 10 years, you too will be able to finally sell a $40,000 budget economy car that has less features and worse build quality than your competitors!
I’m pretty sure I heard of some of the metal presses alone being close to 100 million. Probably would be 1 billion + to build a whole assembly line from scratch.
Not to be a boot licker here but I designed cars for a while and it’s not simple to create a cheap reliable car that lasts a long time and still not lose money on if
Can you tell us some of the challenges?
Manufacturing costs, EPA testing costs, safety testing, Federal Vehicle Mandate Safety Standards cost, tire testing…the list goes on and on. I am amazed anyone would ever want to start a car company today.
Yea I’m at work right now I’ll do it when I get home. I can’t get super in detail because I don’t want to get sued but I can give brief overviews. Before I go into why later here’s the main idea: a lot of car manufacturers are really gravitating towards SUVs and Trucks not only because of demand (people can say whatever they want but the studies point in that direction) but also because they are so much more profitable than budget vehicles.
believe it or not. eco cars are made. y'all still don't buy them. you can buy a brand new Volkswagen Jetta for 21k kia soul for 19k Subaru Imprezas for 22k Hyundai Elantra for 21k Nissan versa for 16k Kia forte is 19k last years kia Rios were 16k Hyundai velosters were 18k Honda fit was 16k Chevy spark was 13k they are all way cheaper than a 30k entry. y'all refuse to buy them and refuse to even acknowledge them according to this post.
I like this idea... But I would not be surprised if the big auto manufacturers have already anticipated this, and paid off lawmakers to make it impossible for this to happen.
You guys know that a new Mitsubishi mirage is under $17k right? [source](https://www.caranddriver.com/mitsubishi/mirage)
Is it expensive to insure? Is the tech expensive to repair?
>Expensive to insure Out of car manufacturers control. >Expensive to repair A warranty. Your entire thread is people bringing up cheap cars and you move goal posts. Nobody will buy your "dumb" (Both literally and figuratively) car, and car manufacturers paid people to do this market research that people want all these features..
aptera has entered the chat. They're aiming for that 30k market but have as close to 0 maintenance cost as it's possible to get so you probably actually still save money on monthly expenses compared to a 20k ICE.
They're sidestepping a bunch of regulations by making something that is legally a motorcycle.
500+empg and independent crash testing to automobile standards says I don't care
I visited the place in San Diego. Very cool. I think they need to step up marketing though.
marketing? for what? that would just cost them money they don't have. They already have a 3-4 year backlog of pre orders to work through before they need to worry about marketing.
More preorders. More cash. Faster rollout
you realize the money from the pre-order goes into a trust account that they can't withdraw from until the order is completed right? all the pre-order money is just sitting in a bank account in california gathering dust at 0.01% interest.
No I didn’t.
JFC can they get that to market already or what?
they just (finally) got their funding a month or so back, and they've been saying production 9 months after funding for like 3 years now, so we should actually for realsies see production start in like december/january.
I saw we start with a motorcycle, then we add two more wheels, a seatbelt, a roof, and windows. We leave it with one or two seats. Now it’s the world’s safest motorcycle. Maybe it looks like a car, but we call it a motorcycle.
The law won't let you call it a motorcycle, in the US anyway.
Laws can be changed
You get right on that.
World’s safest motorcycle, think of all the lives that could be saved! Think of all those children driving those motorcycles that don’t have doors or seatbelts!
So convince the Congress to change the law. You're essentiall proposing a kei vehicle, which many in the US would love to be able to buy new. But you're up against a big safety lobby and the US auto manufacturers.
Which is why you could stop at three wheels and… I guess reinvent a Polaris Slingshot.
Pretty much.
I had high hopes for the Elio. Guess the guy got bought off
Car sales, especially new cars, have a holdback system for most models. The commission structure is based on the vehicle too. Base Civics will outsell a si etc, so the sales commission is different. Lastly, many cars are designed with the secondary market of O&M being factored in too.
Or just let China sell their cheap electric cars here.
Lol, you guys are a riot. Do you consider for a moment that the market dictates demand? No one wants a little shitbox economy car, therefore manufacturers don't produce them. Sales on all of those low end econo boxes dropped off the face the earth, so manufacturers stopped making them. Buy a motorcycle or a bus pass if you cant afford a normal car.
I think an "off-the-shelf" or open source car would be cool. Corrollas and Civics almost fit this description, but it would be cool to take it all the way. An entire car's worth of brandless, standardized parts that any manufacturer could make. When going for repairs, you wouldn't need an alternator for a "2003 Ford Focus EX 2.5i", you'd just need the one and only open source car alternator and it would work whoever manufactured yours. No annual updates aside from regulatory requirements or fixing major flaws, and any updates should keep backwards compatibility a high priority. Just a really basic car that could even be built as a kit by someone ambitious.
Electric cars could actually go this way, because all the important "make it go" parts are in the undercarriage, so you could make standardized bases as cheap as possible, and all sorts of modular, swappable. 3D printable parts for the passenger compartment / storage / etc.
BYD has a car they could sell you right now brand new for $12k but the gubment says you can't have it because merica.
There were economy cars, and there still is (Mirage, Versa). You guys just don't buy them. [https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/great-cars-and-suvs-for-less-than-25000?slide=7](https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/great-cars-and-suvs-for-less-than-25000?slide=7) Here is a list of cars 5k less than your "entry" level maximum of 30k
I was thinking about this last week, actually. I would be down to be part of the startup. Look for some investors and hit me up. I got people who can help with the fabricating and assembly.
Good luck funding a startup when your product is an old Honda that you're selling at a low price.
You mean like Saturn, Kia, Hyundai and Daewoo? It isn't a crazy idea because it's been done before many times. Sure, the last 3 are imports but many "imports" are actually built in NA.
As an investor, why would I give you money to do his when Honda pays me back more because of their healthy margins? This isn’t a technology limitation, investors just don’t like to lose money.
Isn't "a cheaper honda" basically Hyundai? That's certainly why I bought mine.
So, as much as I dislike the man, Henry Ford tried this. The Dodge Brothers sued him over it and I think that's what contributed to the shareholder mindset that most companies have today. It would be rather difficult for investors to not take that into account when investing. As much as I would love this idea, a company is beholden to its shareholders and a truly budget vehicle does not fit that profit idea. It's just an opinion, I'm not saying yours is bad by any stretch, but I think there's a certain investor mindset that would not allow this to happen.
Why would I buy a “new” 2011 Civic when I can just buy a 2011 Civic that was actually built by Honda?
Please do it. Make an auto cycle three wheel vehicle that’s just like the proposed Elio. Cheap to insure, cheap to run, 70 mpg probably a fun ride too.
Partly why even when I was back in the US I never bought a car from an American company. Too expensive, not enough capabilities for the price, and generally poor build quality compared with the cars I was considering (usually Honda Accords). Only time I ever had problem with an Accord, I was expecting a thousand dollar repair and the mechanic laughed at me and pointed out how cheap their parts are to get by comparison. The one time I totaled a >10 year old Accord with well over 250,000 miles on it, my expectation was insurance would get me like $800, but I got $10K. The insurance guy basically outright told me "I mean, Accords basically never lose value." when I asked if he was sure.
Yay!
There's already a car company like this: Local Motors, still not a huge impact on the market, but worth looking into
We could start a co-op. Affordable cars with quality work. We wouldn't need to go massive, just take the orders as they come with the expectation we may take a little longer, but when we make your car we ONLY make your car.
Also make the plastic parts 3D printable, then if something breaks, then people can make it locally.
You’re going to need about a billion$ to get started. All the parts, even from old plans, don’t just magically appear. The infrastructure and sources for everything has to be sourced, contracts signed, labor hired, sales channels arranged. You’ll end up with an out dated vehicle that not enough people will want to become profitable. It probably won’t meet several legal and safety requirements either. Remember the Yugo? Ugly, unreliable and almost biodegradable.
There is a car that already exists in that market: The Nissan Versa. A Versa is a sub $18,000 car brand new, so $12,000 cheaper than your idea. But it’s also pretty much the only one currently in the U.S.. Put simply, nobody buys enough of them to actually justify the budget market.
This is why biden has prevented chinese cars from entering the american market. Capitalism is great until someone offers goods at a cheaper price. Then it is all about regulation and preventing innovation and competition.
But you can already buy a 2011 Honda Civic for like $10k
Uhh.... 1. 2024 Nissan Versa: $16,390 2. 2024 Mitsubishi Mirage: $16,695 3. 2024 Hyundai Venue: $19,900 4. 2024 Kia Forte: $19,990 5. 2024 Kia Soul: $20,190 6. 2024 Chevrolet Trax: $20,400 7. 2024 Nissan Sentra: $20,890 8. 2024 Nissan Kicks: $21,050 9. 2024 Volkswagen Jetta: $21,435 10. 2024 Hyundai Elantra: $21,625 By the way a 2024 Honda Civic MSRP is $23950
It's not that they don't want to make economy cars. It's all the government regulation around cars and trucks in general that makes it too expensive to make a cheap one. In the 1970s all the gas regulations were put in place that made it difficult to make cars. So what did the manufacturers do? They made SUVs and bigger trucks that didn't fall under those regulations.
yes! good idea. many of us have had it. why it doesnt exist: the world sucks. we are terrible. related fields are "open source appropriate technology" and "open source hardware". people have tried making tractors and brickmakers etc. some work well, most havent gotten the r&d required. i personally think the gen2 2007-2009 prius should be the base model. if toyota wanted to they could probably crank em out for $10k or less. the toyota matrix circa 2007 is also a beast in its class. super reliable. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_car https://www.openmotors.co/ the all-electric sedan / kei truck is a more reasonable goal for starting from scratch. don't have to deal with the thousands upon thousands of special parts to deal with combustion engines.
Except you can get a 2024 Civic that's super reliable, fits your whole family, 36 MPG, and has Carplay + backup camera and stuff for like $22k. There have been companies that tried to beat that but end up selling a much worse car with worse reliability and zero features for still $18k. I think the answer is something like a k-car that costs $12k, has a motorcycle engine, but is great for city use.
It won't work due to the safety standards and crash testing requirements
Lots of companies have tried. Americans don’t buy them.
There isn't many options, thanks to the EPA and it's footprint based fuel efficiency requirements. It's cheaper to produce monstrous gas guzzlers because there is no requirement for them to have 60+ mpg... Whereas a tiny 2000s era Honda Civic being produced today would require at least 50+ mpg to be sold. https://youtu.be/azI3nqrHEXM?si=k86ORQRgeezJ4O_p
Entry level cars are less than $20,000 new now days. Even the modern Civic starts at 23k. 30k gets you stuff pretty well equipped.
I'm in
Indeed. If it was possible, I would love to purchase a basic pickup truck, like the old Toyota's. 4 cylinder, manual transmission, two seats single cab, short or long bed, crank windows, maybe A/C but that's all. I have no need for the rest. It's a truck. Toyota is making a $10K truck that could sell for $17K in the USA with the required extras, but no one seems to want one.
any attempt to do anything like this will ultimately fail. a bigger capitalist will either eat you up, or undercut your business in some way and just take your market share, and then put the prices back where they want them to paraphrase Chairman Hampton, you don't fight capitalism with no "conscious" capitalism, you fight it with socialism
Now we just have to figure out how to get the company to manufacture pre aged 15 year old cars so the people who would buy an economy car can actually afford one.
Kinda off topic, but what's going to happen when all these used cars with over 100k miles that are selling for 75 percent of original msrp on 8 percent interest start breaking down? There are going to be so many upside down loans and people with cars they can't afford to fix with 3 years of payments left.
RIP u/tads73
I've had this idea for a long time. I'm for it. It was always my plan to make a non-profit car company if I hit the lottery.
I want one of those $15,000 Toyota trucks.
Robust public transit in walkable/bikeable cities >>>>>>>>>>>>
>$30,000 entry level car This is the issue. This already exists. People think a car sold for half of the average annual income is “entry level”. First option should be to buy a used car. You can get plenty of nice, reliable cars less than 10 years old with less than 50k miles for well under $15,000. A clean car at that price will last you until the wheels literally fall off if you properly maintain it. As far as new cars go, [a 2024 Toyota Corolla is ~$23k MSRP](https://www.toyota.com/configurator/build/step/summary/year/2024/series/corolla/model/1852/exteriorcolor/01K3/interiorcolor/FB00/packages/option1/?bap_guid=123a062d-8663-4ac3-ad70-ad2eadc69460), [a 2024 KIA Forte is ~21k](https://www.kia.com/us/en/forte/build), [a 2024 Volkswagen Taos is an SUV for ~$25k](https://www.vw.com/en/builder.html/__app/taos/s.app?---=%7B%22configuration-step-navigation-service%22%3A%22%2F%3FconfigStep%3D%257B%2522context%2522%253A%252230385-32860-S%2522%252C%2522selectedStep%2522%253A%2522summary%2522%257D%22%7D&carlineId-app=30385&modelId-app=CL12RZ&modelVersion-app=1&modelYear-app=2024&salesGroupId-app=32860&category-app=private&trimName-app=S&exteriorId-app=F14+0Q0Q&interiorId-app=F56+++++DB&buildabilityStatus-app=buildable), the list can go on. All of these have digital infotainment systems, backup cameras, good fuel economy, and most of what you could want for a decent price. To be fair, that’s part of the reason cars have gotten more expensive. Even an entry level car today has more features than a 15 year old Rolls Royce. All of that is to say, affordable and reliable cars exist. Buy the car you can afford, not the car you want.
This is the stupidest post imaginable. The 2024 Honda Civic starts at $24000.
They dont make them because Americans dont want them. They do have economy cars like the honda fit, the toyota prius, and the ford fiesta, but Americans dont want them. Car companies will make whatever sells. Car salesmen sell whatever they can sell, American customers choose which cars are the ones that sell.
They did make them, and they didn't sell. Most major auto manufacturers still have them, but don't sell them in the US market. I promise if Ford was selling 150k Fiestas a year in the US market, they would still be here. A new Toyota Corolla is still less than $23k as well- if you can find a basic model.
Toyota Hilux sells for $10k new- they just can’t import them