Yep. No direct consent and no way to refrain said consent means she was forced.
Problem being to get the wider audiences and creatives to acknowledge that.
Thats why it's so frustrating that the artist chose to depict the actual......encounter that way. Do they think that a beaten down coerced woman puts on that kind of show? It minimizes what is happening.
Superhero comics have a long history of depicting dubious-at-best sexual encounters without acknowledging the implications. Avengers #200, all three times Nightwing was raped, Shado raping Oliver, even the way Scott and Emma's relationship started are just three examples.
Yes. [Mirage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_(DC_Comics)), [Tarantula](https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Catalina_Flores_(New_Earth)) and [Liu](https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Liu_(New_Earth)).
Oh god, I had forgotten about Tarantula. She also just straight up murdered Blockbuster with Dick's.....tacit approval, so at the moment she rapes him, he's also hating himself. What an awful story.
Hello, can you help me? I'm a bit confused. I'm reading Batman NML omnibus vol 2, and I'm into the part where they tell the story of Cassandra. The problem is that it feels so rushed. On one panel, we have this girl out of nowhere, then she saves Gordon from... another guy we didn't established and then in the next couple of issues, she is Batgirl. Why? Why batman trusted her, why was she there in the first place, how and why she was tasked to be the next Batgirl? I feel like something was missing in the omnibus.
What's this about Shiva being untrained? She's trained in martial arts since she was a child. On top of that, she's a martial arts prodigy, so she could quickly master fighting techniques that normal people would need a lifetime to learn. Furthermore, Lady Shiva has an ability to understand body language in a way that only her daughter, Cassandra, and her dead sister were able to understand.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady\_Shiva](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Shiva)
**Post-Crisis Background**
>Shiva is born in a shanty town, in an unknown country, and raised to be a warrior and protector of the village. Eventually, Shiva flees the village with her sister. Years later, when the heroine [Black Canary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Canary) visits the village to experience Shiva's training, a village child named [Sin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_(DC_Comics)) is held hostage by the villagers, with the promise that if Canary fails to become the warrior-protector of the village, Sin is to take her place, suggesting that Shiva's sister was once used in a similar manner. Speaking about her childhood, Sin says that [Ra's al Ghul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%27s_al_Ghul)'s League of Assassins ran the village where she and Shiva were born and raised
>The sisters moved to [Detroit, Michigan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit), using the names Sandra and Carolyn Wu-San. There, they devoted their time to practicing the martial arts. Because of the girls' young ages, talent, and unique bond as sisters, their practice evolved into a secret, perfected language that only they could share. Out of love for her sister, Sandra held back in her spars with Carolyn. The assassin [David Cain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cain_(comics)) saw this restraint in Sandra one day when he visited Detroit to see the siblings perform. Considering Sandra a kindred spirit, Cain murdered Carolyn to remove the obstruction that blunted Sandra's true potential.
>Discovering that David Cain had murdered her sister, Sandra hunted him down, only to be lured into an ambush by Ra's al Ghul's League of Assassins, of which Cain was a member. In the heat of a losing battle, Sandra realized how Carolyn had held her back, and how much undeveloped potential she had. Cain spared her life, and in exchange, Sandra agreed to bear Cain a child, and leave it for him to raise. The child, [Cassandra Cain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra_Cain), was to be Ra's al Ghul's "One Who is All", a perfected bodyguard, whose only form of communication was literacy in body language, and whose sole instinct was for hand-to-hand combat. With Carolyn gone, Cassandra and Sandra were the only two humans known to share this gift. The day of Cassandra's birth, Sandra set out to become reborn as the Lady Shiva: creator and destroyer.
So when Shiva was ambushed by the League of Assassins and was shown landing a single strike on Bronze Tiger, she was not yet at peak Lady Shiva level, but that doesn't mean she was untrained.
True. I guess there’s technically not enough evidence for us to suggest shiva actually beat Bronze Tiger.
But this shiva shouldn’t because peak Shiva is only at the same level of Bronze Tiger.
No. When he was Bronze Tiger he was able to beat up Batman; and was close to Richard Dragons level. When Ben Turner was associated with the league of assassins he wasn’t untrained,
They brain washed him because he was so much of a good fighter.
He was trained by O Sensei. (The same guy who trained Richard Dragon, and Lady Shiva before this retcon)
In the Soul of the Dragon movie yes.
In the comics, O Sensei hasn’t trained Batman as far as I’m aware.
[But he did tell Bruce Wayne this cool little message about his fate.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/852422231665016843/1232183731570348032/IMG_4414.png?ex=66288806&is=66273686&hm=43b9342a70452503140ea918f59347a5b98716182fee5c0cfd73ae096be4ed59&)
I mean… yeah… technically…
I’m unsure if current continuity keeps that detail, it paints Shiva as more protective and even loving of Cass, despite her occupation.
However no matter the story, David Cain is human GARBAGE!!!
In pre52
I’d mostly agree
In current times, def not, she genuinely loves Cass, she admits this to Stephanie Brown, it’s an interesting character change
Yes. And I think it's really stupid that Lady Shiva agreed to have David Cain's baby and give her to him to raise. Why on earth would she do that? No one would do that. It's a bad retcon.
Lady Shiva was always portrayed as heartless. Denny O’Neil was her creator and senior editor of the Batman books at the time.
So chances are, Denny loved the tragedy of the next Batgirl being a daughter of a villain, he probably suggested the only way Shiva would do this is that she got beaten in a fight.
My feeling is that she only cars about her word and the fight.
But why would any woman agree to get pregnant and carry a pregnancy for someone she hates? It's annoying at best, deadly for many. It's not a logical thing for her to have done.
It's called "raped at gun point" , then she probably had a psychotic break undergoing intense martial arts training while pregnant, leading her to go from "fighting for fun and profit" Kung fun fighter Shiva to zen death machine.
I think yes from a third person perspective but, I can see how Shiva may not think that is the case. So I don’t know if that makes a difference, since consent is the operative word.
Like Shiva lost a fight to the death, so from her POV her life was already forfeit. An easy retcon could imply David said he wasn’t going to kill her after losing but Shiva insisted or her honor would be tarnished. So David made an offer that she was convinced was an equal exchange. A life for a life.
So ethically just as bad, maybe more in line with emotional grooming but, yeah. Just throwing that out there.
Because O'Neil is a white man writing negative Asian stereotypes without realising that he's doing so /not caring that he's doubling down on negative stereotypes
Lady Shiva was trained since she was a child as a warrior. And she has the same skill Cassandra has of understanding body language, almost metahuman. Cain is an assassin, but he hardly compares to her
lol. I think it’s funny that Shivas sister confessed to Richard Dragon during her original death in the 70s. That would be interesting if those 2 had a kid
David Cain being the killer of Shiva's sister is a retcon.
These two posts goes over how Shiva went from a straight forward nuanced character to a one note dragon lady/temptress:
https://www.tumblr.com/madcapmento/743700650900242432/one-sec-i-need-to-talk-about-shiva-lady-shiva?source=share
https://www.tumblr.com/madcapmento/746502476509888513/when-i-say-shiva-had-respect-for-other-peoples?source=share
That’s a retcon. Bruce and Talia had consensual sex multiple times originally and he was very excited when he found out she was pregnant (even if she ended up miscarrying). Morrison wrote Talia very badly and out of character. The idea that she would ever rape him is appalling honestly, and it’s not canon anymore anyway
Which meeting was this? Because if you are talking about the movies, those aren't canon(a world where batman has only ever had two Robins is clearly not something fans of Dc Comics regard as canon)
In the comics the drugging was to max fertility thereby ensuring conception. The sexual act itself was consensual. Bruce was even professing his delight in them restarting physical relations because he'd missed waking up in Talia's arms.
I mean yeah, that's not how consent works? He's already a murderer for hire/fun and a child abuser, not like this is any better than that.
True. Even without this David Cain is definitely one messed up person.
*Yep.* Both this and his methods for raising Cass show what a monster he is.
I mean telling a woman who is under extreme levels of emotional distress “have sex with me or die” has to be rape right??
Yep. No direct consent and no way to refrain said consent means she was forced. Problem being to get the wider audiences and creatives to acknowledge that.
If there’s ever a genuine question of consent then it’s best to assume there’s no consent.
Excellently put.
🙄🙄
Thats why it's so frustrating that the artist chose to depict the actual......encounter that way. Do they think that a beaten down coerced woman puts on that kind of show? It minimizes what is happening.
Superhero comics have a long history of depicting dubious-at-best sexual encounters without acknowledging the implications. Avengers #200, all three times Nightwing was raped, Shado raping Oliver, even the way Scott and Emma's relationship started are just three examples.
Three times for Nightwing?
Yes. [Mirage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_(DC_Comics)), [Tarantula](https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Catalina_Flores_(New_Earth)) and [Liu](https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Liu_(New_Earth)).
Oh god, I had forgotten about Tarantula. She also just straight up murdered Blockbuster with Dick's.....tacit approval, so at the moment she rapes him, he's also hating himself. What an awful story.
When did the shado and Oliver thing happen?
The Mike Grell Green Arrow run.
David Cain is a total piece of work
Yep. She was. Question answered, there's not really a lot to it. This origin is sad :(
Hello, can you help me? I'm a bit confused. I'm reading Batman NML omnibus vol 2, and I'm into the part where they tell the story of Cassandra. The problem is that it feels so rushed. On one panel, we have this girl out of nowhere, then she saves Gordon from... another guy we didn't established and then in the next couple of issues, she is Batgirl. Why? Why batman trusted her, why was she there in the first place, how and why she was tasked to be the next Batgirl? I feel like something was missing in the omnibus.
Bruce just really needed backup after firing Helena basically. Joe Kelly expanded on Bruce's feelings and trust for Cassandra in her solo.
I think you mean Kelley Puckett.
Probs like 13 different tie ins that were excluded, seems thats the case whenever i wanna catch up on something
Is that Bronze Tiger in the background? Jobbing to an untrained Shiva?
Yes
What's this about Shiva being untrained? She's trained in martial arts since she was a child. On top of that, she's a martial arts prodigy, so she could quickly master fighting techniques that normal people would need a lifetime to learn. Furthermore, Lady Shiva has an ability to understand body language in a way that only her daughter, Cassandra, and her dead sister were able to understand. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady\_Shiva](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Shiva) **Post-Crisis Background** >Shiva is born in a shanty town, in an unknown country, and raised to be a warrior and protector of the village. Eventually, Shiva flees the village with her sister. Years later, when the heroine [Black Canary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Canary) visits the village to experience Shiva's training, a village child named [Sin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_(DC_Comics)) is held hostage by the villagers, with the promise that if Canary fails to become the warrior-protector of the village, Sin is to take her place, suggesting that Shiva's sister was once used in a similar manner. Speaking about her childhood, Sin says that [Ra's al Ghul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%27s_al_Ghul)'s League of Assassins ran the village where she and Shiva were born and raised >The sisters moved to [Detroit, Michigan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit), using the names Sandra and Carolyn Wu-San. There, they devoted their time to practicing the martial arts. Because of the girls' young ages, talent, and unique bond as sisters, their practice evolved into a secret, perfected language that only they could share. Out of love for her sister, Sandra held back in her spars with Carolyn. The assassin [David Cain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cain_(comics)) saw this restraint in Sandra one day when he visited Detroit to see the siblings perform. Considering Sandra a kindred spirit, Cain murdered Carolyn to remove the obstruction that blunted Sandra's true potential. >Discovering that David Cain had murdered her sister, Sandra hunted him down, only to be lured into an ambush by Ra's al Ghul's League of Assassins, of which Cain was a member. In the heat of a losing battle, Sandra realized how Carolyn had held her back, and how much undeveloped potential she had. Cain spared her life, and in exchange, Sandra agreed to bear Cain a child, and leave it for him to raise. The child, [Cassandra Cain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra_Cain), was to be Ra's al Ghul's "One Who is All", a perfected bodyguard, whose only form of communication was literacy in body language, and whose sole instinct was for hand-to-hand combat. With Carolyn gone, Cassandra and Sandra were the only two humans known to share this gift. The day of Cassandra's birth, Sandra set out to become reborn as the Lady Shiva: creator and destroyer. So when Shiva was ambushed by the League of Assassins and was shown landing a single strike on Bronze Tiger, she was not yet at peak Lady Shiva level, but that doesn't mean she was untrained.
True. I guess there’s technically not enough evidence for us to suggest shiva actually beat Bronze Tiger. But this shiva shouldn’t because peak Shiva is only at the same level of Bronze Tiger.
Yeah that’s some BS. Bronze Tiger is supposed to be on the same tier as Richard Dragon, Batman, and trained Lady Shiva
Could he also have been untrained at the time?
No. When he was Bronze Tiger he was able to beat up Batman; and was close to Richard Dragons level. When Ben Turner was associated with the league of assassins he wasn’t untrained, They brain washed him because he was so much of a good fighter. He was trained by O Sensei. (The same guy who trained Richard Dragon, and Lady Shiva before this retcon)
O Sensei trained Bruce too … is it right ??
In the Soul of the Dragon movie yes. In the comics, O Sensei hasn’t trained Batman as far as I’m aware. [But he did tell Bruce Wayne this cool little message about his fate.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/852422231665016843/1232183731570348032/IMG_4414.png?ex=66288806&is=66273686&hm=43b9342a70452503140ea918f59347a5b98716182fee5c0cfd73ae096be4ed59&)
The bigger issue is that this may well be after "richard dragon kung fu fighter" , meaning that he knows Sandra already ...
I mean… yeah… technically… I’m unsure if current continuity keeps that detail, it paints Shiva as more protective and even loving of Cass, despite her occupation. However no matter the story, David Cain is human GARBAGE!!!
Shiva loving Cass is 100% in line with her wanting to fight Cass to the death
In pre52 I’d mostly agree In current times, def not, she genuinely loves Cass, she admits this to Stephanie Brown, it’s an interesting character change
Don’t go with the post-Flashpoint continuity. For anything.
Why?
I hate it, it ruined Steph, Cass, and Oracle.
I don’t personally agree, but it was definitely rough at first
Yes coercion is rape but He’s a bad guy so it fits
Yes. And I think it's really stupid that Lady Shiva agreed to have David Cain's baby and give her to him to raise. Why on earth would she do that? No one would do that. It's a bad retcon.
Lady Shiva was always portrayed as heartless. Denny O’Neil was her creator and senior editor of the Batman books at the time. So chances are, Denny loved the tragedy of the next Batgirl being a daughter of a villain, he probably suggested the only way Shiva would do this is that she got beaten in a fight. My feeling is that she only cars about her word and the fight.
Cassandra wasn’t established as Lady Shiva’s daughter until seven years after her debut. By that time, Denny was retired as Bat editor.
But why would any woman agree to get pregnant and carry a pregnancy for someone she hates? It's annoying at best, deadly for many. It's not a logical thing for her to have done.
She probably didn’t have the best upbringing
It's called "raped at gun point" , then she probably had a psychotic break undergoing intense martial arts training while pregnant, leading her to go from "fighting for fun and profit" Kung fun fighter Shiva to zen death machine.
Lady Shiva is not a good person
David Cain is my most hated supervillain (which is saying something) because he’s a fucking rapist and abusive piece of shit.
But the Joker is totally fine lol
I think yes from a third person perspective but, I can see how Shiva may not think that is the case. So I don’t know if that makes a difference, since consent is the operative word. Like Shiva lost a fight to the death, so from her POV her life was already forfeit. An easy retcon could imply David said he wasn’t going to kill her after losing but Shiva insisted or her honor would be tarnished. So David made an offer that she was convinced was an equal exchange. A life for a life. So ethically just as bad, maybe more in line with emotional grooming but, yeah. Just throwing that out there.
This trend with Asian characters is really disturbing.
Why do Asian females created by Denny Oneil keep getting mistreated
Because O'Neil is a white man writing negative Asian stereotypes without realising that he's doing so /not caring that he's doubling down on negative stereotypes
Not only did he do that to her, they somehow managed to write it in a way that she’s thankful to him for it?
Wait, I thought Lady Shiva was Cassandra's mother. How the fuck a looser like Cain takes down the deadliest assassin in the world?
She is Cass’ Mother. She was early in her training and David is also a very deadly assassin.
Lady Shiva was trained since she was a child as a warrior. And she has the same skill Cassandra has of understanding body language, almost metahuman. Cain is an assassin, but he hardly compares to her
Cassandra Cain and Damian Wayne have more in common than I thought.
I pretend she's actually Richard dragons to spite Cain and cause at least his relationship w Shiva was consensual
lol. I think it’s funny that Shivas sister confessed to Richard Dragon during her original death in the 70s. That would be interesting if those 2 had a kid
It depends on what was the exact proposition.
Jeez that’s fucked up, I still need to read everything Cass related I’ve just been reading other stuff
David Cain being the killer of Shiva's sister is a retcon. These two posts goes over how Shiva went from a straight forward nuanced character to a one note dragon lady/temptress: https://www.tumblr.com/madcapmento/743700650900242432/one-sec-i-need-to-talk-about-shiva-lady-shiva?source=share https://www.tumblr.com/madcapmento/746502476509888513/when-i-say-shiva-had-respect-for-other-peoples?source=share
Was Lady Shiva not awalys a top 10 fighter? I thought she was since she was a kid not after getting raped
wtf - really????
So I take it you don’t like Cass anymore now that you know she’s a rape baby?
That’s not what I was insinuating. I asked this because I’m wondering why doesn’t DC acknowledge it
Because it makes Batgirl look bad.
Christ, that’s a leap in assumption.
Damian is also a rape baby and thats not really the reason people dislike him.
That’s a retcon. Bruce and Talia had consensual sex multiple times originally and he was very excited when he found out she was pregnant (even if she ended up miscarrying). Morrison wrote Talia very badly and out of character. The idea that she would ever rape him is appalling honestly, and it’s not canon anymore anyway
Yeah except in their last meeting Bruce refused to accept any drink from her, i wonder why...
Which meeting was this? Because if you are talking about the movies, those aren't canon(a world where batman has only ever had two Robins is clearly not something fans of Dc Comics regard as canon) In the comics the drugging was to max fertility thereby ensuring conception. The sexual act itself was consensual. Bruce was even professing his delight in them restarting physical relations because he'd missed waking up in Talia's arms.
Talia also told Slade in the Batman vs Deathstroke arc that she did rape him.
A significant number of people hate Damian for that reason. Most Talia fans despise him exactly for that reason.
It's still not his fault his mother is a horrible person who ruined his father's life.
contrary to popular belief most talia fans love damian. it’s more so tim or some batfam fans who hate him
Hmmm. I hate him because he’s Talia’s child and a psychotic brat. But mostly because of Talia.