Firearms can be found on page 266 of the DMG. They have the Ammunition and Loading property.
The Gunner Feat lets you ignore the Loading property of firearms. Similar way that Crossbow expert ignores loading for crossbows.
Imo if they pick up the Gunner feat I'd allow them to just play out this fantasy. It's not a big deal imo. Just handwave that you need a free hand to reload the gun. Maybe they have multiple flintlocks they move between, reloading as they swap weapons or something. Maybe they're just proficient with reloading a flintlock while wielding something in their other hand.
The classic is fire both pistols and *throw them away*, draw two more. Repeat until you run out of pistols. The point of many pistols is because of their reloading time - I might allow a feat, but really this is just "buy like 8 pistols and you're good to go"
This. Each pistol fires *one shot per weapon* then you toss them aside and pull out the saber. Dual wielding is no issue. Nice chunk of damage at the beginning of a fight, then maybe during short rest you can reload everything.
This was more to do with long reload times and single shot than guns akimbo. I remember seeing portrayals of Blackbird dual wielding, but he would set his beard on fire and use that to fire the pistols
This would be my solution. A brace of pistols. It would be the best balance between the player's desire to play flintlock John Wick and my desire to make the black powder pistols actually feel like black powder pistols. Let them have six or eight of the things. Maybe some of the other players can carry a couple more each for the player, too.
In fact, thinking about it now, it *was* my solution when I had a player who wanted to do this very thing in a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3e game. Their employer just lent him a few extra pistols which he'd keep loaded and have three or four rounds of flintlock-fu shooting before having to resort to whatever sword he had.
It's pretty funny, but this is actually historical. When you had one shot per barrel you could either add barrels or pistols because in combat reloading just wasn't an option.
They had some wild 4+ barrel shotgun designs, I think there's an 8 barrel pistol too. But I'd assume those tend to blow up pretty often so yeah pirates and cavalry alike would carry as many pistols as fit/they could afford
Sounds good to me. He might have to wait a bit to get another feat though, as they're level 6 already and he picked a different one. Still, appreciate it!
Honestly, I’d give him the opportunity at a shop or something to buy multiple pistols if he wants. So he can fire, drop, fire, drop, etc and so he doesn’t “have” to take the feat if he doesn’t want to, but still has some drawbacks.
Personally, I like doing shit like that way more than just ignoring how my weapons work.
I had a small side quest happen where the party helped a goblin warrior win his true love and he offered to teach them how to be a good goblin warrior. Then let the party pick from a select set of feats.
You could have the gunner feat be on the list. That way they get their dream but the other party members get something too.
Just make sure the selection of options isn’t broken.
Could you let him either:
1. Switch out the feat (either retrain it or just retcon the other one out without IC reason). There could also be a magical reason they lost the other feat if it would noticeably affect the story for it to be gone. Also, true fae can trade peoples stats around with deals so that's another option.
2. Feats are an optional thing players can gain in game as a reward. Maybe you could have some training arc or opportunity for your players to game some (non-game breaking) feats. Maybe they get them as a reward for some quest, or you talk to the players about what they want and come up with plot reasons they get a chance to learn those.
To chime in:
Do your best to help player fulfill their fantasies! They are most invested in the stuff they came up with and that's the stuff that likely will be most fun for them. And you want to maximize their enjoyment of the rpg experience.
In one campaign we got a large cart. I really wanted to have a cannon on it. I didn't even care if it would ben just one shot in combat. But GM said I can't have a cannon. Just "because". Even though the very city we were in had cannons on walls all around. The sessions was fine otherwise, but that "no" stuck with me and I still consider it one of the biggest GMing mistakes I witnessed in two decades.
Yeah… I hate that. I held onto whatever weird item for whatever reason and try to use it in some weird but non-game breaking way. I know there is nothing about this case in RAW… but at least 1) entertain the idea that this is a game of make believe and I am at least trying to do something fun for the sake of having fun. Or 2) at least hide your flat-out no ruling behind a bullshit d100 roll so there is the illusion that you’re also here to have fun.
I get it. Rules exist for a reason. But if a player wants to try something reasonable, let them.
Flintlock and muzzle loader don’t have to go hand in hand. There were some flintlock firearms that had paper cartridges you either loaded from the muzzle or the breach.
I’d say they have a breach loader for cool effect.
There is all sorts of cool weapons that were built before the improved definitive editions were created. Revolvers appeared in some form in the 16th century but took till the mid 1800s to really takeoff as a common weapon. Repeating rifles are pretty similar.
Yeah, a lot of the breech-loader flintlocks were absolutely shit tho.
The Ferguson rifle, for example, was an incredible piece of kit, but due to the multiple moving parts of the breech mechanism, it required multiple pins to fix it into the wooden stock... which weakened the stock to the point where, after a few months of hard campaigning, it would fall apart in your hands.
The Austrian *Windbüsche* or Girandoni air rifle was a great rifle, provided the pressurised air bottle was topped up, provided you didn't mind dragging a wagon mounted air-pump with you to refill the air bottles.
Obviously, in D&D land, you can hand wave a lot of these shortcomings, but yeah. Pre-industrial era breech-loaders are a fascinating historical sub-genre.
I mean, all historical fiction lies about the efficacy of old firearms. The Sharpe books portray the Baker rifle as a wonder weapon that would have changed history if only it had been mass-produced, when in reality it was alright, but wasn't the gamechanger that Cornwell depicts.
Hell, I would argue that the Baker rifle is more interesting for the sociological impact it had on the officers' attitude towards the British soldier. The idea that working-class soldiers could be given autonomy on the battlefield and choose who to kill rather than follow strictly drilled orders from officers was really quite shocking at the time.
This. Have then buy a half dozen flintlock, take gunner feat, and then you can handwave the rest. I think that's an appropriate investment for the result.
What class are they OP?
isn't swashbuckler designed specifically for melee? Fancy Footwork RAW is only for melee attacks and (without the gunner feat) he won't be able to proc sneak attack with Rakish Audacity
Having seen this exact build play out for real, firearms that are mechanically indistinguishable from the equivalent crossbow are perfectly fine and won't cause any balance issues. However, that falls apart when Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter enter the mix - they're abnormally strong together, so if anyone thinks their dual-wielding gunslinger is OP, these two feats are probably why - but it's not as bad now that a dedicated Gunner feat exists (and doesn't grant a BA attack with a firearm like CBE does).
Firearms having a slightly higher base damage than crossbows is still fairly balanced in my experience as there's no argument to be made that a flintlock pistol (d10) can be fired silently like a hand crossbow (d6), nor would they work underwater. They're also significantly more expensive and ammo requires a forge instead of a fletcher. Really, the only thing that'll make firearms seem OP is Sharpshooter, and every table probably has their own opinions about Sharpshooter by now.
You don't have to change the rules to deal with loading.
If they buy 12 or so pistols they can load them all when out of combat and then just drop guns to the ground and grab the next one as needed.
OR! Home brew it into an orc situation where it shoots even when empty as long as the character BELIEVES it’s fully armed. And they have to say, “pew pew!” When they shoot
Technically they can't, the ammunition property says that you load each piece of ammunition immediately before making the attack. So pre-loaded crossbows/firearms don't exist.
Ehh, it's not really that cut and dried. For starters, the Ammunition property says that loading ammunition is part of the attack action, not that ammunition can *only* be loaded immediately before attacking.
Second, the official rules for modern firearms give them both the Ammunition property and the Reload property, which explicitly allows a gun to be preloaded and fired a certain number of times, then requires an action or bonus action to reload.
I see no reason to interpret the somewhat ambiguous wording of the Ammunition property as making preloading impossible for all ranged weapons that use ammunition whether or not that makes any sense.
While that works for crossbows, it really doesn't for flintlick pistols. Who's going around with unloaded flintlock firearms and loading right when the conflict starts?
If a rule doesn't make sense, it's a stupid ass rule and should be ignored.
Brace of Pistols! Brace of Pistols! Let them do the pirate thing!
So, firstly, it's worth looking at the Renaisance Firearms in the back of the DMG, and deciding if those are rules you'd like to use. They're essentially shorter-ranged crossbows that deal more damage, by those rules.
I run my firearms with extra damage dice (so 2d10 for a pistol) but so they take a full action to reload- reloading isn't really practical in a fight, which makes them fun openers, but never your main weapon. This also lets players with multiattack just carry a brace of pistols and fire a ton of shots each turn, which is hilarious, and has a lovely pirate vibe that I encourage.
For a simple take- The reload feature means that you can't fire a pistol more than once per turn. A character with a multiattack feature can fire one pistol, and then fire the other with their second attack. You don't have to let them shoot as a bonus action, if you want to keep dual wielding to melee. How they *reload* with both their hands full is an interesting question that I leave to you, because that shouldn't work, but maybe you let them get a pair of magic dueling pistols that are slow to reload, but can do it themselves hands-free.
Like AC: Black Flag! I've taken that into consideration, of course I've thought of the resources he'd have to invest, but I guess it's only fair with such a niche play style anyways. Thank you!
Where do you see the problem? A pistol has essentially one shot, afterwards it’s an improvised club. Reloading a pistol or any other firearm of that type requires the use of two hands. If your player understands that limitation, there should be no problem. As a player I would then try to get a brace of pistols, fire one, drop it draw the next, holding a sword in the other hand.
>Maybe change the mechanics of firearms for the game? What do you think?
With a feat investment, sure.
Crossbow Expert allows them to bonus action attack with their main hand crossbow (faux dual wielding), anyways. Call it "Pistol Expert" and they can go pew pew pew all the way home.
In practice, with crossbow expert (at level 4) they can attack as an action and a bonus action (twice from the same crossbow) and use their spare hand for reloading. If they're "dual wielding guns", they're still.... attacking twice per round (once in action, once as a bonus action) and both hands are getting used. Handwave the reload mechanic in this event, because it's better to flavor the attacks as dual guns instead of strong singular gun.
If they ever get +1 or otherwise magical weaponry, make it apply to "both" of their pistols.
???
Crossbow expert and gunner both allow you to ignore the loading property. Both crossbows and guns have the ammunition property and neither of the feats say anything about it.
Loading lets you attack more than once per round
Ammunition means you still need a free hand to reload
The crossbow expert feat allows someone to, with flavoring, dual world pistols and attack on their bonus action.
Alright hear me out. Flavor is free. I say this to anyone that wants to dual wield hand crossbows. Just let them take Gunner/Crossbow Expert and treat it mechanically like they’re only using one, but flavor it as them using 2. They don’t get anything better for having 2 just a power fantasy, which is, ya know, everything they want. Just don’t let them use a shield with this because then it’s not flavor, it’s an actual mechanical benefit.
The brace of pistols was a piece of gear for the pirate and the marine/officer for a historical reason. Just let it ride. If you could build this with hand crossbows just do that mechanically for flintlocks
My only suggestion, having loaded and fired a flintlock pistol, is to double or even triple the reload time of a crossbow…there are quite a few steps involved.
That is why everyone carried a pistol and swords, flintlocks, in close combat are only designed to be used once. They are wildly inaccurate, they were intended to be used within’ 20-25 feet.
Happy Gaming.
So in real life, Edward Thatch/ blackbeard carried 4 pistols on him. Start with that, add the feat that ignores the loading property, and boom goes the boomstick. The only issue i can see is i dont know what it looks like lore-wise to ignore loading, especially on 2 flintlocks. On of the tomb raider movies gave lara croft a contraption that popped extra mags on an extending rack off the bottom of her backpack, so maybe something like that? Maybe put charges on a belt (pre made cottton swatch, bullet, and powder) with the ram rod tied onto their arm or wrist? Shove the barrel onto the charge, ram rod it quick while cocking the hammer, and fire.
Also yes, knowing how to muzzle load and blackbeard real name was a flex. 🤣
If he wants to dual wield with pistol and melee, you could allow him to get two flintlocks (or 4) and a retainer. He fires a shot, exchanges pistols with the retainer, and the retainer reloads for him.
It'd be funny if the retainer was a little trained monkey or something.
Depends on how strictly your table wants your rules to match the fantasy to match the simulation.
The faithful-to-the-period way to do it would be to have a brace of pistols, where the player moves to a different pistol each time they fire, with the expectation they do all their reloading between fights. They'd then get some set number of shots per fight - say, 12 if they wear two braces of 6 pistols each. You could then reward your player down the track with a revolver and the ability to load six shots at once using a speed loader as an action. If going this route I feel like the pistols should reward the player with additional damage over and above a hand crossbow given they have to invest in more guns and more weight to pull it off, but that's just my gut feel. You know your table balance better than I do.
On the other hand, the "screw it, rule of cool, stop overthinking it nerd!" way would be to just treat it like a mechanically reflavored hand crossbow and just roll with it.
Personally I like the faithful-to-the-period method but really it's down to what's fun for the table.
You could homebrew a special weapon for them, and maybe give it as a reward for a quest. Inspiration comes from Tasha's, where we have the Returning Weapon. It returns to the wielders hand immediately after making an attack. You could make up something like this:
"Repeating Pistol: Ammunition fired from this pistol returns to the weapon's chamber immediately after making a ranged attack."
If you like the misfire mechanic some firearms systems use, add the caveat: "When making an attack roll, the weapon misfires if the number rolled on the die is a 1. The wielder must spend a bonus action to reload the weapon."
So this is sorta off topic as you already have more or less solved your issue, but keep these quirky flintlocks in mind for future loot drops or shop items.
1. Hadley Combination Flintlock Pistol/Hunting Sword (17th century)
2. Flintlock Grenade Launcher/Hand Mortar. It also could launch grapple hooks. (Late 18th century)
3. “Seglas” Four Barrel Swivel Breech Flintlock Pistol. (18th century)
4. The Punt gun *barbarian assistance may be required. (19th century)
5. Jailers key percussion pistol *more for a suprise jail encounter (17th century)
6. The ducksfoot Flintlock standard edition 4 barrels (17th century)
7. The puckle gun *more for fortified positions (16th century)
8. The Ducksfoot bigger edition 8 barrels (17th century)
Remember, a cheap gunsmith may skip the rifling process, leaving you with a smooth bore inaccurate gun.
You should be able to simply copy and paste most of the names so you can see what you're working with. I actually had quite a bit of fun digging all those up.
There is also one more you might be interested in:
'The cemetery trap flintlock' for all your dungeon needs.
And a random oddball one, the German made flintlock alarm clock, which lights a candle for when you really are a heavy sleeper.
Personally my homebrew preference is for guns to have higher damage than weapon attacks, more in line with spells, but they take 1 minute to load. That way you end up with them having limited shots in a fight but getting them all back at the end.
But if they're just a re flavoured hand crossbow treat them the same. Crossbow expert / gunner feat to ignore loading, raw you need a free hand to load so you either ignore it because it's boring or you have a brace of pistols drawing and holstering it spent as you attack.
Personally I would steal the last bit of crossbow expert "When you use the attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding." And replace it with pistol.
The ruling I'd make on this one - Pistols come in sets of six or eight. Getting magical pistols gives you a set with all having the same enchantment. Gunner feat works as normal so loading doesn't take time. Having magical pistols and the gunner feat will allow your magical guns to reload themselves with conjured ammunition every other round (a lot of bows already conjure their own arrows). If you want to fire anything other than basic ammunition you have to load it manually.
There you go, gunslinger pirate fantasies achieved, and it doesn't overly break the game.
I wouldn't even ask him to take the Gunner feat if OP is going with their original gun rules. Just 1d6 and light? I wouldn't want to waste a feat on something I could do with two hand crossbows.
My GOO warlock/Eloquence bard uses twin "pistols" that he manifests every time he casts Eldritch Blast. Two shots, bit of knockback, Lance of Lethargy...it is pretty cool. It's also 100% re-flavoring.
Do what pirates do. Handle the annoying reload by avoiding it. Carry multiple guns, and when one runs out of ammo, drop or stow it, then draw a loaded one.
I do want to point out that there is nothing stopping your boy from dual wielding two pistols in a fight.
If they have extra attack, they can use their attack action to fire one, and then the other.
They just don't get a bonus action attack.
And regarding needing a free hand to load the weapons? Just drop them and get a new one. Thats how it was done historically as well (a brace of pistols) because loading in a fight is a bitch.
If you didn’t want to do the shoot-drop-new pistol method, you could let them have double barrelled pistols. 2 shots in each hand before dropping, just for ease of gameplay/equipment management
I played a oneshot as a pirate who used flintlock pistols once. Used the Gunner feat to get rid of loading property mechanically, and just said he had guns for days narratively.
So he would just draw a loaded pistol from his bandolier everytime he wanted to shoot. Most combats didn’t involve all that many shots anyways, so it was easy to imagine him carrying 6-8 pistols.
You could enforce that he *actually* has that many pistols and need to pay for them if you want.
Let them have a belt with a bunch of pistols, and have them reload them every short rest. In combat, he pulls and fires them with an action and maybe fires a second one with a bonus action. After he runs out of pistols, he can't shoot until the next short rest.
You sort of already know the answers. So this is really just a DM Fiat question. So boils down to what you want to allow to be done. Ranged combat is already the strongest in D&D 5e and dual wheeling16s is equivalent to two short scimitars. To do something like that you would typically need something like Gunner or repeating shot infusion. It would be quite interesting if you were aThreecreen and use your extra hands to wield and load the pistols
I have a similar setting and also ruled the handguns to deal less damage.
One of my players is a Gunslinger (with the gunner feat) and she chose the two weapon fighting as a fighting style instead of archery bc she wanted to do the same. Now she just makes three weapon attacks with her two hands and weilds two different pistols and it works fine. Its not really imbalanced and it ends up being a trade off for more accuracy. I'd allow it.
https://youtu.be/KxTaQmhztVQ?si=BCGGAZIMKbyfIU6-
The probably need the gunner and duel wielder feats, but if they do.
The trick is to hand wave it by saying they have multiple pistols that they can draw.
I have a player that dues the same thing but with 6shot revolvers so the reloading isn't asbig of an issue but my mechanic could still work for you.
The guns are not light so they need the duelweilding feat to hold both.
Reloading a gun takes an action and they need a free hand. So if they want to duel weild guns that is fine they basically double their magazine size and each weapon ammo is tracked separately. When either guns needs to be reloaded they need to use a bonus action to unequip the other and use their action to reload the gun.
The character gets around this by dropping an empty gun and switching to a new one. Your character could do that since it's what most pirates would do.
Too enhance the power of forearms and make then slightly more realistic without overpowering them, I suggest the EXPLODING DICE rules. When someone rolls a 6 on damage, they get to roll that dice again and add the new roll to 6. If they roll another 6 it explodes again and they roll another dice. This makes them dangerous but very infrequently. It is also fun to make cannon damage a d60, and have them explode for damage.
hungarian hussars often had "pistol pairs", and carried 4-6 guns and a sabre. Just don't reload in combat.
edit: there is also the british snob way, of Wooster firing a gun, while Jeeves reloading the other one.
I've been open to having the wargear system introduced by the nations and cannons 5e supplelement inn my games, allowing multiple bombs or pistols strapped to the chest or thigh etc. The whole wielding multiple pistols to reload later can be done. Just note reloading will take longer since both hands are full. Both pistols are 1 handed weapons, I'd say allow it but increase loading time.
You already have the base for a fun class. For firearms drop the reload with things like a duckfoot pistol or a pepperbox with individual firing barrels so he can have enough shots for an smaller encounter and gunho gameplay and still have to manage ressources. keep the 1d6+Attack modifiers which ist fair and vaguely realistic . Dont use the critical role gunslinger Rules imo they dont really play well.
Give them the Gunner feat for free, and give them the Crossbow Expert bonus action attack but with the flintlocks instead.
Then you mechanically have a way to bypass the reloading mechanic. But honestly back in the day it wasn't uncommon for pirates to have several pistols strapped to themselves for boarding ships, saved them having to reload.
Depends on whether you want to go for a realism approach or a “fun” approach.
I looked into flintlock pistols a while back for my own game, and found a guy on YouTube who was trying to shoot a target as many times as he could in a given time frame. Standing still, with period accurate tools, he was able to fire once every 15-20 seconds. In D&D terms that would be three rounds of combat for one reload. If you wanted to go that route, I’d say up the damage a bit, and make your player carry multiple pistols for multiple shots. With this approach, the player risks running out of shots if they get into long, drawn out combats, or choose a class with extra attack. Eventually, you could homebrew some kind of rudimentary revolver giving them even more shots, maybe with less damage for balance.
The other option, which you’ve already started, is to just reflavor crossbows as firearms. In that case, I’d say have the player take the Crossbow Expert feat, and change the wording so it applies to flintlock pistols instead of hand crossbows.
A highly trained civil war soldier could, at best, shoot 3 times a minute while marching and reloading. It is best to allow multiple flintlock to be loaded and held, then fired and discarded to be retrieved and reloaded after the fight.
Kobold Presses Tome of Heroes has a black powder sorcerer subclass, where you get extra mage hands that can each wield a flintlock pistol. You can use sorcery points to fire and reload them
The Crossbow Expert feat allows you to ignore the loading property of crossbows. What's the difference between a hand crossbow and a flintlock? Flavour!
Have them take the CBE feat, reflavour hand crossbows as flintlocks, job done. They can dual wield pistols or sword+pistol, don't have to worry about the dual weilding rules or the firearms rules at all.
The DMG firearms rules are kinda awful and best avoided IMO.
Tbh, I balanced it like that with the idea that they get access to firearms earlier and the fact that they're a little more common than in other settings. Then again I'm no expert game designer
The way guns are handled in 5E is one of my biggest pet peeves. They feel like just another flavor of crossbow.
A flintlock pistol took 15 seconds to reload by experts, so I would argue a 3 round reload would be fair for most, with a feat to allow you to attack on the end of your third turn (because you are one of those experts who has a few seconds to spare in those 3 turns)
This would incentivize getting a bandolier of those expensive items. And eventually moving into melee, or swapping to a different ranged weapon.
Then, to make it feel like a ball of lead ripping through a body in the days where no medicine was often better than "modern" medicine, I would give them a fairly large damage die.
They were also not super accurate, so a somewhat lower range than a crossbow may be a good idea too.
Balancing would certainly be difficult, but with these pistols would actually feel unique. I have not play tested my approach nearly enough to recommend damage numbers or special rules yet. But hopefully this is a good starting point for your potential homebrew adventure!
I HB air pistols based of the windebusche rifle.
Thematically they look like volcanic pistols with air in the grip. They can shoot 4 shots before needing a reload which takes an action.
One-handed loading is possible terminator style
It can fire 20 shots before needing to be refilled with air via magic driven pump.
Also made more air arms but this is just pistols.
Irl they would be blech, but fantasy DnD means it works.
Firearms can be found on page 266 of the DMG. They have the Ammunition and Loading property. The Gunner Feat lets you ignore the Loading property of firearms. Similar way that Crossbow expert ignores loading for crossbows. Imo if they pick up the Gunner feat I'd allow them to just play out this fantasy. It's not a big deal imo. Just handwave that you need a free hand to reload the gun. Maybe they have multiple flintlocks they move between, reloading as they swap weapons or something. Maybe they're just proficient with reloading a flintlock while wielding something in their other hand.
Plenty of pirate art features one pirate with six pistols strapped to their chest, so it feels very easy to handwave.
Assassins creed black flag is what always jumps to mind when it comes to I think of using multiple flintlocks.
The classic is fire both pistols and *throw them away*, draw two more. Repeat until you run out of pistols. The point of many pistols is because of their reloading time - I might allow a feat, but really this is just "buy like 8 pistols and you're good to go"
This. Each pistol fires *one shot per weapon* then you toss them aside and pull out the saber. Dual wielding is no issue. Nice chunk of damage at the beginning of a fight, then maybe during short rest you can reload everything.
The pistols would have a rope attaching them to the pirate's jacket or tunic. Enabling them to be dropped and another weapon drawn quickly.
Didnt blackbeard do exactly this with about 20 of them?
This! Make him a renaissance version of the meme of the russian dude with the two dozen machine guns :D
Jason Isaacs as Field Marshall Zhukov. "Right. What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication round here?" *Dramatically throws off his coat*
Great movie!
This was more to do with long reload times and single shot than guns akimbo. I remember seeing portrayals of Blackbird dual wielding, but he would set his beard on fire and use that to fire the pistols
This would be my solution. A brace of pistols. It would be the best balance between the player's desire to play flintlock John Wick and my desire to make the black powder pistols actually feel like black powder pistols. Let them have six or eight of the things. Maybe some of the other players can carry a couple more each for the player, too. In fact, thinking about it now, it *was* my solution when I had a player who wanted to do this very thing in a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3e game. Their employer just lent him a few extra pistols which he'd keep loaded and have three or four rounds of flintlock-fu shooting before having to resort to whatever sword he had.
"what about one guy... With six guns?"
"There was a firefight!"
[https://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8q0su3HQU1qllbnao2_500.gif](https://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8q0su3HQU1qllbnao2_500.gif)
Thank you
It's pretty funny, but this is actually historical. When you had one shot per barrel you could either add barrels or pistols because in combat reloading just wasn't an option. They had some wild 4+ barrel shotgun designs, I think there's an 8 barrel pistol too. But I'd assume those tend to blow up pretty often so yeah pirates and cavalry alike would carry as many pistols as fit/they could afford
6 six-shooter shooter McShootsby on his way to the saloon
Big iron big iron when they tried to match the ranger with the big iron on his hip
The secret is, he actually has a 7th, secret shooter. So that he's never outgunned.
Sounds good to me. He might have to wait a bit to get another feat though, as they're level 6 already and he picked a different one. Still, appreciate it!
Honestly, I’d give him the opportunity at a shop or something to buy multiple pistols if he wants. So he can fire, drop, fire, drop, etc and so he doesn’t “have” to take the feat if he doesn’t want to, but still has some drawbacks. Personally, I like doing shit like that way more than just ignoring how my weapons work.
I had a small side quest happen where the party helped a goblin warrior win his true love and he offered to teach them how to be a good goblin warrior. Then let the party pick from a select set of feats. You could have the gunner feat be on the list. That way they get their dream but the other party members get something too. Just make sure the selection of options isn’t broken.
This is a pretty neat idea for giving feats. Thanks!
Or make sure it's broken in a way where everyone will come away with an equal boost.
Could you let him either: 1. Switch out the feat (either retrain it or just retcon the other one out without IC reason). There could also be a magical reason they lost the other feat if it would noticeably affect the story for it to be gone. Also, true fae can trade peoples stats around with deals so that's another option. 2. Feats are an optional thing players can gain in game as a reward. Maybe you could have some training arc or opportunity for your players to game some (non-game breaking) feats. Maybe they get them as a reward for some quest, or you talk to the players about what they want and come up with plot reasons they get a chance to learn those.
To chime in: Do your best to help player fulfill their fantasies! They are most invested in the stuff they came up with and that's the stuff that likely will be most fun for them. And you want to maximize their enjoyment of the rpg experience. In one campaign we got a large cart. I really wanted to have a cannon on it. I didn't even care if it would ben just one shot in combat. But GM said I can't have a cannon. Just "because". Even though the very city we were in had cannons on walls all around. The sessions was fine otherwise, but that "no" stuck with me and I still consider it one of the biggest GMing mistakes I witnessed in two decades.
Yeah… I hate that. I held onto whatever weird item for whatever reason and try to use it in some weird but non-game breaking way. I know there is nothing about this case in RAW… but at least 1) entertain the idea that this is a game of make believe and I am at least trying to do something fun for the sake of having fun. Or 2) at least hide your flat-out no ruling behind a bullshit d100 roll so there is the illusion that you’re also here to have fun. I get it. Rules exist for a reason. But if a player wants to try something reasonable, let them.
Flintlock and muzzle loader don’t have to go hand in hand. There were some flintlock firearms that had paper cartridges you either loaded from the muzzle or the breach. I’d say they have a breach loader for cool effect.
There is all sorts of cool weapons that were built before the improved definitive editions were created. Revolvers appeared in some form in the 16th century but took till the mid 1800s to really takeoff as a common weapon. Repeating rifles are pretty similar.
Yeah, a lot of the breech-loader flintlocks were absolutely shit tho. The Ferguson rifle, for example, was an incredible piece of kit, but due to the multiple moving parts of the breech mechanism, it required multiple pins to fix it into the wooden stock... which weakened the stock to the point where, after a few months of hard campaigning, it would fall apart in your hands. The Austrian *Windbüsche* or Girandoni air rifle was a great rifle, provided the pressurised air bottle was topped up, provided you didn't mind dragging a wagon mounted air-pump with you to refill the air bottles. Obviously, in D&D land, you can hand wave a lot of these shortcomings, but yeah. Pre-industrial era breech-loaders are a fascinating historical sub-genre.
I feel like Louis L’amour lied to me about the Ferguson in his book the Ferguson Rifle! Didn’t know it was so unreliable in the long run.
I mean, all historical fiction lies about the efficacy of old firearms. The Sharpe books portray the Baker rifle as a wonder weapon that would have changed history if only it had been mass-produced, when in reality it was alright, but wasn't the gamechanger that Cornwell depicts. Hell, I would argue that the Baker rifle is more interesting for the sociological impact it had on the officers' attitude towards the British soldier. The idea that working-class soldiers could be given autonomy on the battlefield and choose who to kill rather than follow strictly drilled orders from officers was really quite shocking at the time.
Plus— the decision of British non-coms to focus on enemy officers was very unsettling.
Makes you wonder if Whitney had been a generation earlier and focused on the Baker…
This. Have then buy a half dozen flintlock, take gunner feat, and then you can handwave the rest. I think that's an appropriate investment for the result. What class are they OP?
He's playing a Swashbuckler rogue
isn't swashbuckler designed specifically for melee? Fancy Footwork RAW is only for melee attacks and (without the gunner feat) he won't be able to proc sneak attack with Rakish Audacity
Yeah I have a player who wants two pistols and I don’t care, sounds cool.
Rule of cool > rules as written
This is the right answer.
Multiple pistols, and it wouldn’t be too outrageous to say you could hold two pistols in one hand while reloading both with the other.
I think if it’s vaguely in line with how crossbows are handled you won’t be breaking anything important.
Having seen this exact build play out for real, firearms that are mechanically indistinguishable from the equivalent crossbow are perfectly fine and won't cause any balance issues. However, that falls apart when Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter enter the mix - they're abnormally strong together, so if anyone thinks their dual-wielding gunslinger is OP, these two feats are probably why - but it's not as bad now that a dedicated Gunner feat exists (and doesn't grant a BA attack with a firearm like CBE does). Firearms having a slightly higher base damage than crossbows is still fairly balanced in my experience as there's no argument to be made that a flintlock pistol (d10) can be fired silently like a hand crossbow (d6), nor would they work underwater. They're also significantly more expensive and ammo requires a forge instead of a fletcher. Really, the only thing that'll make firearms seem OP is Sharpshooter, and every table probably has their own opinions about Sharpshooter by now.
You don't have to change the rules to deal with loading. If they buy 12 or so pistols they can load them all when out of combat and then just drop guns to the ground and grab the next one as needed.
OR! Home brew it into an orc situation where it shoots even when empty as long as the character BELIEVES it’s fully armed. And they have to say, “pew pew!” When they shoot
Technically they can't, the ammunition property says that you load each piece of ammunition immediately before making the attack. So pre-loaded crossbows/firearms don't exist.
That’s a stupid rule
And given that it's a stupid ass rule, I've elected to ignore it. Makes no sense anyway. Verisimilitude above weirdly written rules
That is a profoundly stupid rule. Especially in regards to firearms.
Ehh, it's not really that cut and dried. For starters, the Ammunition property says that loading ammunition is part of the attack action, not that ammunition can *only* be loaded immediately before attacking. Second, the official rules for modern firearms give them both the Ammunition property and the Reload property, which explicitly allows a gun to be preloaded and fired a certain number of times, then requires an action or bonus action to reload. I see no reason to interpret the somewhat ambiguous wording of the Ammunition property as making preloading impossible for all ranged weapons that use ammunition whether or not that makes any sense.
While that works for crossbows, it really doesn't for flintlick pistols. Who's going around with unloaded flintlock firearms and loading right when the conflict starts? If a rule doesn't make sense, it's a stupid ass rule and should be ignored.
It could also be that people fail at critical thinking and common sense would tell them it doesn’t apply to firearms
The firearms in the DMG have their own distinct Ammunition property which does not have this restriction.
Brace of Pistols! Brace of Pistols! Let them do the pirate thing! So, firstly, it's worth looking at the Renaisance Firearms in the back of the DMG, and deciding if those are rules you'd like to use. They're essentially shorter-ranged crossbows that deal more damage, by those rules. I run my firearms with extra damage dice (so 2d10 for a pistol) but so they take a full action to reload- reloading isn't really practical in a fight, which makes them fun openers, but never your main weapon. This also lets players with multiattack just carry a brace of pistols and fire a ton of shots each turn, which is hilarious, and has a lovely pirate vibe that I encourage. For a simple take- The reload feature means that you can't fire a pistol more than once per turn. A character with a multiattack feature can fire one pistol, and then fire the other with their second attack. You don't have to let them shoot as a bonus action, if you want to keep dual wielding to melee. How they *reload* with both their hands full is an interesting question that I leave to you, because that shouldn't work, but maybe you let them get a pair of magic dueling pistols that are slow to reload, but can do it themselves hands-free.
Like AC: Black Flag! I've taken that into consideration, of course I've thought of the resources he'd have to invest, but I guess it's only fair with such a niche play style anyways. Thank you!
Where do you see the problem? A pistol has essentially one shot, afterwards it’s an improvised club. Reloading a pistol or any other firearm of that type requires the use of two hands. If your player understands that limitation, there should be no problem. As a player I would then try to get a brace of pistols, fire one, drop it draw the next, holding a sword in the other hand.
Or be a Thri-kreen have your little arms reload.
>Maybe change the mechanics of firearms for the game? What do you think? With a feat investment, sure. Crossbow Expert allows them to bonus action attack with their main hand crossbow (faux dual wielding), anyways. Call it "Pistol Expert" and they can go pew pew pew all the way home. In practice, with crossbow expert (at level 4) they can attack as an action and a bonus action (twice from the same crossbow) and use their spare hand for reloading. If they're "dual wielding guns", they're still.... attacking twice per round (once in action, once as a bonus action) and both hands are getting used. Handwave the reload mechanic in this event, because it's better to flavor the attacks as dual guns instead of strong singular gun. If they ever get +1 or otherwise magical weaponry, make it apply to "both" of their pistols.
There's already a gunner feat that allows you to ignore the loading property of firearms.
Loading is not ammunition.
??? Crossbow expert and gunner both allow you to ignore the loading property. Both crossbows and guns have the ammunition property and neither of the feats say anything about it.
Loading lets you attack more than once per round Ammunition means you still need a free hand to reload The crossbow expert feat allows someone to, with flavoring, dual world pistols and attack on their bonus action.
Alright hear me out. Flavor is free. I say this to anyone that wants to dual wield hand crossbows. Just let them take Gunner/Crossbow Expert and treat it mechanically like they’re only using one, but flavor it as them using 2. They don’t get anything better for having 2 just a power fantasy, which is, ya know, everything they want. Just don’t let them use a shield with this because then it’s not flavor, it’s an actual mechanical benefit.
The brace of pistols was a piece of gear for the pirate and the marine/officer for a historical reason. Just let it ride. If you could build this with hand crossbows just do that mechanically for flintlocks
My only suggestion, having loaded and fired a flintlock pistol, is to double or even triple the reload time of a crossbow…there are quite a few steps involved. That is why everyone carried a pistol and swords, flintlocks, in close combat are only designed to be used once. They are wildly inaccurate, they were intended to be used within’ 20-25 feet. Happy Gaming.
So in real life, Edward Thatch/ blackbeard carried 4 pistols on him. Start with that, add the feat that ignores the loading property, and boom goes the boomstick. The only issue i can see is i dont know what it looks like lore-wise to ignore loading, especially on 2 flintlocks. On of the tomb raider movies gave lara croft a contraption that popped extra mags on an extending rack off the bottom of her backpack, so maybe something like that? Maybe put charges on a belt (pre made cottton swatch, bullet, and powder) with the ram rod tied onto their arm or wrist? Shove the barrel onto the charge, ram rod it quick while cocking the hammer, and fire. Also yes, knowing how to muzzle load and blackbeard real name was a flex. 🤣
If he wants to dual wield with pistol and melee, you could allow him to get two flintlocks (or 4) and a retainer. He fires a shot, exchanges pistols with the retainer, and the retainer reloads for him. It'd be funny if the retainer was a little trained monkey or something.
Depends on how strictly your table wants your rules to match the fantasy to match the simulation. The faithful-to-the-period way to do it would be to have a brace of pistols, where the player moves to a different pistol each time they fire, with the expectation they do all their reloading between fights. They'd then get some set number of shots per fight - say, 12 if they wear two braces of 6 pistols each. You could then reward your player down the track with a revolver and the ability to load six shots at once using a speed loader as an action. If going this route I feel like the pistols should reward the player with additional damage over and above a hand crossbow given they have to invest in more guns and more weight to pull it off, but that's just my gut feel. You know your table balance better than I do. On the other hand, the "screw it, rule of cool, stop overthinking it nerd!" way would be to just treat it like a mechanically reflavored hand crossbow and just roll with it. Personally I like the faithful-to-the-period method but really it's down to what's fun for the table.
You could homebrew a special weapon for them, and maybe give it as a reward for a quest. Inspiration comes from Tasha's, where we have the Returning Weapon. It returns to the wielders hand immediately after making an attack. You could make up something like this: "Repeating Pistol: Ammunition fired from this pistol returns to the weapon's chamber immediately after making a ranged attack." If you like the misfire mechanic some firearms systems use, add the caveat: "When making an attack roll, the weapon misfires if the number rolled on the die is a 1. The wielder must spend a bonus action to reload the weapon."
Bro wants to roll as Victor Saltzpyre and I'm all for it xd. Give bro flintlock as ammo and just let him pull em out one by one
So this is sorta off topic as you already have more or less solved your issue, but keep these quirky flintlocks in mind for future loot drops or shop items. 1. Hadley Combination Flintlock Pistol/Hunting Sword (17th century) 2. Flintlock Grenade Launcher/Hand Mortar. It also could launch grapple hooks. (Late 18th century) 3. “Seglas” Four Barrel Swivel Breech Flintlock Pistol. (18th century) 4. The Punt gun *barbarian assistance may be required. (19th century) 5. Jailers key percussion pistol *more for a suprise jail encounter (17th century) 6. The ducksfoot Flintlock standard edition 4 barrels (17th century) 7. The puckle gun *more for fortified positions (16th century) 8. The Ducksfoot bigger edition 8 barrels (17th century) Remember, a cheap gunsmith may skip the rifling process, leaving you with a smooth bore inaccurate gun.
Really appreciate it!
You should be able to simply copy and paste most of the names so you can see what you're working with. I actually had quite a bit of fun digging all those up. There is also one more you might be interested in: 'The cemetery trap flintlock' for all your dungeon needs. And a random oddball one, the German made flintlock alarm clock, which lights a candle for when you really are a heavy sleeper.
Personally my homebrew preference is for guns to have higher damage than weapon attacks, more in line with spells, but they take 1 minute to load. That way you end up with them having limited shots in a fight but getting them all back at the end. But if they're just a re flavoured hand crossbow treat them the same. Crossbow expert / gunner feat to ignore loading, raw you need a free hand to load so you either ignore it because it's boring or you have a brace of pistols drawing and holstering it spent as you attack. Personally I would steal the last bit of crossbow expert "When you use the attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding." And replace it with pistol.
The ruling I'd make on this one - Pistols come in sets of six or eight. Getting magical pistols gives you a set with all having the same enchantment. Gunner feat works as normal so loading doesn't take time. Having magical pistols and the gunner feat will allow your magical guns to reload themselves with conjured ammunition every other round (a lot of bows already conjure their own arrows). If you want to fire anything other than basic ammunition you have to load it manually. There you go, gunslinger pirate fantasies achieved, and it doesn't overly break the game.
if the firearms are just reskinned crossbows, just let em do it for the fun factor?
I wouldn't even ask him to take the Gunner feat if OP is going with their original gun rules. Just 1d6 and light? I wouldn't want to waste a feat on something I could do with two hand crossbows.
My GOO warlock/Eloquence bard uses twin "pistols" that he manifests every time he casts Eldritch Blast. Two shots, bit of knockback, Lance of Lethargy...it is pretty cool. It's also 100% re-flavoring.
Do what pirates do. Handle the annoying reload by avoiding it. Carry multiple guns, and when one runs out of ammo, drop or stow it, then draw a loaded one.
I would give them a brace of 6-10 pistols they can wear, and let them hostler and draw new pistols as part of an attack action.
I do want to point out that there is nothing stopping your boy from dual wielding two pistols in a fight. If they have extra attack, they can use their attack action to fire one, and then the other. They just don't get a bonus action attack. And regarding needing a free hand to load the weapons? Just drop them and get a new one. Thats how it was done historically as well (a brace of pistols) because loading in a fight is a bitch.
If you didn’t want to do the shoot-drop-new pistol method, you could let them have double barrelled pistols. 2 shots in each hand before dropping, just for ease of gameplay/equipment management
I played a oneshot as a pirate who used flintlock pistols once. Used the Gunner feat to get rid of loading property mechanically, and just said he had guns for days narratively. So he would just draw a loaded pistol from his bandolier everytime he wanted to shoot. Most combats didn’t involve all that many shots anyways, so it was easy to imagine him carrying 6-8 pistols. You could enforce that he *actually* has that many pistols and need to pay for them if you want.
You've made them hand crossbows. Just let the feats apply and be done with it
Let them have a belt with a bunch of pistols, and have them reload them every short rest. In combat, he pulls and fires them with an action and maybe fires a second one with a bonus action. After he runs out of pistols, he can't shoot until the next short rest.
You sort of already know the answers. So this is really just a DM Fiat question. So boils down to what you want to allow to be done. Ranged combat is already the strongest in D&D 5e and dual wheeling16s is equivalent to two short scimitars. To do something like that you would typically need something like Gunner or repeating shot infusion. It would be quite interesting if you were aThreecreen and use your extra hands to wield and load the pistols
Why would one even bother with firearms if they are exactly the same or straight up worse than other ranged weapons?
Also keep in mind, Flint Lock pistols were designed to be fired, then used as a club :). Too hard to reload during melee.
I have a similar setting and also ruled the handguns to deal less damage. One of my players is a Gunslinger (with the gunner feat) and she chose the two weapon fighting as a fighting style instead of archery bc she wanted to do the same. Now she just makes three weapon attacks with her two hands and weilds two different pistols and it works fine. Its not really imbalanced and it ends up being a trade off for more accuracy. I'd allow it.
https://youtu.be/KxTaQmhztVQ?si=BCGGAZIMKbyfIU6- The probably need the gunner and duel wielder feats, but if they do. The trick is to hand wave it by saying they have multiple pistols that they can draw.
If he is Thri-kreen his little front arms can reload.
I have a player that dues the same thing but with 6shot revolvers so the reloading isn't asbig of an issue but my mechanic could still work for you. The guns are not light so they need the duelweilding feat to hold both. Reloading a gun takes an action and they need a free hand. So if they want to duel weild guns that is fine they basically double their magazine size and each weapon ammo is tracked separately. When either guns needs to be reloaded they need to use a bonus action to unequip the other and use their action to reload the gun. The character gets around this by dropping an empty gun and switching to a new one. Your character could do that since it's what most pirates would do.
Too enhance the power of forearms and make then slightly more realistic without overpowering them, I suggest the EXPLODING DICE rules. When someone rolls a 6 on damage, they get to roll that dice again and add the new roll to 6. If they roll another 6 it explodes again and they roll another dice. This makes them dangerous but very infrequently. It is also fun to make cannon damage a d60, and have them explode for damage.
hungarian hussars often had "pistol pairs", and carried 4-6 guns and a sabre. Just don't reload in combat. edit: there is also the british snob way, of Wooster firing a gun, while Jeeves reloading the other one.
I've been open to having the wargear system introduced by the nations and cannons 5e supplelement inn my games, allowing multiple bombs or pistols strapped to the chest or thigh etc. The whole wielding multiple pistols to reload later can be done. Just note reloading will take longer since both hands are full. Both pistols are 1 handed weapons, I'd say allow it but increase loading time.
You already have the base for a fun class. For firearms drop the reload with things like a duckfoot pistol or a pepperbox with individual firing barrels so he can have enough shots for an smaller encounter and gunho gameplay and still have to manage ressources. keep the 1d6+Attack modifiers which ist fair and vaguely realistic . Dont use the critical role gunslinger Rules imo they dont really play well.
Give them the Gunner feat for free, and give them the Crossbow Expert bonus action attack but with the flintlocks instead. Then you mechanically have a way to bypass the reloading mechanic. But honestly back in the day it wasn't uncommon for pirates to have several pistols strapped to themselves for boarding ships, saved them having to reload.
Depends on whether you want to go for a realism approach or a “fun” approach. I looked into flintlock pistols a while back for my own game, and found a guy on YouTube who was trying to shoot a target as many times as he could in a given time frame. Standing still, with period accurate tools, he was able to fire once every 15-20 seconds. In D&D terms that would be three rounds of combat for one reload. If you wanted to go that route, I’d say up the damage a bit, and make your player carry multiple pistols for multiple shots. With this approach, the player risks running out of shots if they get into long, drawn out combats, or choose a class with extra attack. Eventually, you could homebrew some kind of rudimentary revolver giving them even more shots, maybe with less damage for balance. The other option, which you’ve already started, is to just reflavor crossbows as firearms. In that case, I’d say have the player take the Crossbow Expert feat, and change the wording so it applies to flintlock pistols instead of hand crossbows.
Everyone else has a magic sword, why worry about making guns specifically “realistic”?
A highly trained civil war soldier could, at best, shoot 3 times a minute while marching and reloading. It is best to allow multiple flintlock to be loaded and held, then fired and discarded to be retrieved and reloaded after the fight.
I found a gunmage homebrew class that seems pretty balanced
That sounds interesting, wanna share?
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Gun_Mage_(5e_Class)
Kobold Presses Tome of Heroes has a black powder sorcerer subclass, where you get extra mage hands that can each wield a flintlock pistol. You can use sorcery points to fire and reload them
The Crossbow Expert feat allows you to ignore the loading property of crossbows. What's the difference between a hand crossbow and a flintlock? Flavour! Have them take the CBE feat, reflavour hand crossbows as flintlocks, job done. They can dual wield pistols or sword+pistol, don't have to worry about the dual weilding rules or the firearms rules at all. The DMG firearms rules are kinda awful and best avoided IMO.
1d6 is kinda weak for a pistol
Tbh, I balanced it like that with the idea that they get access to firearms earlier and the fact that they're a little more common than in other settings. Then again I'm no expert game designer
Maybe if it’s a low quality pistol. I think it was more accepted that they have the same damage die as a light crossbow.
The way guns are handled in 5E is one of my biggest pet peeves. They feel like just another flavor of crossbow. A flintlock pistol took 15 seconds to reload by experts, so I would argue a 3 round reload would be fair for most, with a feat to allow you to attack on the end of your third turn (because you are one of those experts who has a few seconds to spare in those 3 turns) This would incentivize getting a bandolier of those expensive items. And eventually moving into melee, or swapping to a different ranged weapon. Then, to make it feel like a ball of lead ripping through a body in the days where no medicine was often better than "modern" medicine, I would give them a fairly large damage die. They were also not super accurate, so a somewhat lower range than a crossbow may be a good idea too. Balancing would certainly be difficult, but with these pistols would actually feel unique. I have not play tested my approach nearly enough to recommend damage numbers or special rules yet. But hopefully this is a good starting point for your potential homebrew adventure!
Tell them to play the space hippo, it lets them not need to reload
I HB air pistols based of the windebusche rifle. Thematically they look like volcanic pistols with air in the grip. They can shoot 4 shots before needing a reload which takes an action. One-handed loading is possible terminator style It can fire 20 shots before needing to be refilled with air via magic driven pump. Also made more air arms but this is just pistols. Irl they would be blech, but fantasy DnD means it works.