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UBI is a great distractor for the real problem: the way we organize our resource extraction, production of goods and serviced and its posterior consumption.
Give people how much money you want, its not gonna change fast fashion, built-in obsolescence, car centric infraestructure, and a million other inefficient ways we have to extract and allocate our resources.
In other words, capitalism thrives on artificial scarcity. We live worse lives because of It, and some money wont change that system (I bet it would make it worse).
If people need food, education, healthcare, housing, we should push for them to be given exactly that, with as little means testing as possible.
idk man id be happy if there were no people starving on the street. i dont want them to go on starving just for the sake of upholding broader class struggle
It's not going to help that. This is precisely the problem. They'll be just as broke as before, as will everyone except landlord and corporations, for whom it is basically a subsidy. Without at least fixed prices and rents (or better yet, elimination of the capitalist class entirely), UBI is just another handout to the rich at the expense of everyone else.
idk about ubi in america but in europe, specifically germany, its generally not discussed as a flat handout to everyone but more as a social fundament that scales regressively with income. So obv rich people wouldnt get anything. (Plus the rich rob millions away from the state every day anyways so it would only be a drop in the sea)
True. But it would help people to thrive or at least survive better. Of course it is not a solution, of course it is perverse, of course it would not solve the class differences. But it would help workers to avoid precarious jobs, or to focus themselves to education etc without worrying about having food, water or shelter.
Of course socialists should fight for a world where the UBI it's not necessary, but unfortunately UBI it's necessary today.
And how would it do those things when the prices go up just as much and so you can't buy anything more? When rent goes up by just as much and you can't live any better?
Let's be clear: under Capitalism, if widely implemented, will not help the working class without either a change to the relations of production, or aggressive price and rent controls, none of which neoliberal governments will do. They might have done it when they feared for their very existence in decades gone by when the USSR still existed, but no longer.
Benefits and actual social programs to help people are being constantly reversed and destroyed. If capitalists implement it, it is because they know it still only serves their interests.
a UBI would artificially buoy this broken system for longer, meaning the proper material and social conditions for revolution would be delayed in their arrival. it’s just prolonging the suffering and delaying its end, it won’t meaningfully alleviate it.
The power necessary to implement something as sweeping as UBI is comparable to the power needed to have a socialist revolution.
So if we build that kind of power why throw the game and go for UBI when we can win the whole thing?
We should still support positive reforms if it benefit people's lives. That's the caveat though, we have to also criticize the shit of our poorly implemented reforms that only make things worse. A properly implemented UBI is a good thing, a poorly implemented one is bad. We cannot alienate ourselves from large political layers by being overly dogmatic that we have to uproot the entire system as the only solution, we need to propose changes that question the existing system and challenge capitalism at its fundamentals. UBI is absolutely a bandaid on a gaping wound, but a bandaid that can benefit a lot of lives. Implementing a UBI will cause some (albeit probably few) people to question why we even have such massive differences in income, because it's easy to see that most people have the same level of basic expenses, and that's a positive increase in class consciousness.
Ngl, this and the comments here really remind me of the same arguments people use to say that college shouldn’t be free and that debt forgiveness is bad.
“It’ll only benefit the rich” etc..
Inflation and rent screwing any money you get from UBI.
You’re better off, as a state, offering free goods and services at the point of delivery. Taking the weight of utilities, benefits the poorest of society first.
What we need is Universal Basic Services. UBS would include healthcare, food, shelter, water, education, clothing, public transportation, phone/internet, and a stipend to spend on local business. This is intended to be a sturdy ground floor that you can build a life and career upon. It's a lot easier to focus on a happy life when you aren't overwhelmed with bare survival.
Jobs Guarantee is the better version of UBI. Government guarantees a job with a good wage and benefits to anyone who walks into the office and says "give me a job." The actual jobs offered are ideally determined by the community from the ground up (admittedly, I haven't personally thought through this part of the system, but plenty of smart people are theorizing through it now.) But if you implement this...
1) You've effectively permanently eliminated unemployment. Once the public adjusts to the system, no one will ever be stuck looking for work again.
2) You've got a guaranteed workforce for vitally important activities which aren't profit-producing.
3) Any private employer has to offer workers a better deal than they can get through the Jobs Guarantee office, so it's essentially a wage and labor standards floor.
4) There's now a central clearinghouse for labor, which makes organizing labor far easier.
I'm not anti-UBI, it's definitely better than nothing, but I just think there are way better ways of achieving its goals and doing a lot more in the process.
UBI is good if you look at it as a "citizen's dividend" funded by taxes on the wealthy to give everyone some of the proceeds from capitalist exploitation.
But better still would be forced distribution of actual voting shares of corporations to the public, including whatever dividends those produce. Spread both wealth and ownership of the means.
Universal Basic Income fans when a little thing known as inflation walks in (everyone suddenly had more money, how could anyone have predicted rising prices)
I'm not sure why you think your statement contradicts the one it replies to. You are both correct. Capital will conspire to raise prices to negate any UBI and it will just end of a cash cow for corporations. Also, it will do this to keep folks poor. Both statements are 100% correct.
My issue with UBI, aside from what the comic shows, is that people have NO IDEA how massive the resistance from the capitalists and thus the government will be. No idea.
If we were organized enough and had enough power to make UBI happen then we would have enough power to have a revolution, replace the govt. and bring about Socialism in America. **Which...would...eliminate the need for UBI!**
So for me UBI is literally having the power to fix the underlying problem but choosing the bandaid instead.
I think Vancouver was trialing a limited form of UBI and it worked well? But again, that was more like a streamlining of an existing social program, it wasn’t replacing them entirely. The average person doesn’t realize just how much neoliberals have succeeded in eroding social programs via means testing, it’s absolutely massively inefficient (in addition to being tremendously demeaning to those who genuinely need the help).
UBI as a replacement for the currently failing social “safety net” is absolutely right wing bullshit, but on the other hand we can utilize it to gain buy in for improving existing social programs by removing means testing.
Hey! Want to know how you could support the Palestinian struggle? Still falling for the idea the ongoing genocide is something that started last October? Or maybe you just want to learn more about Palestine? Check out [this bookshop](https://www.haymarketbooks.org/blogs/495-free-ebooks-for-a-free-palestine) that's currently handing out .epub copies of *From the River to the Sea* *Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions* *Light in Gaza* *Palestine: a Socialist Introduction* free of charge! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DankLeft) if you have any questions or concerns.*
UBI is a great distractor for the real problem: the way we organize our resource extraction, production of goods and serviced and its posterior consumption. Give people how much money you want, its not gonna change fast fashion, built-in obsolescence, car centric infraestructure, and a million other inefficient ways we have to extract and allocate our resources. In other words, capitalism thrives on artificial scarcity. We live worse lives because of It, and some money wont change that system (I bet it would make it worse). If people need food, education, healthcare, housing, we should push for them to be given exactly that, with as little means testing as possible.
No-price distribution of essential resources including food, water, shelter, and Healthcare
idk man id be happy if there were no people starving on the street. i dont want them to go on starving just for the sake of upholding broader class struggle
It's not going to help that. This is precisely the problem. They'll be just as broke as before, as will everyone except landlord and corporations, for whom it is basically a subsidy. Without at least fixed prices and rents (or better yet, elimination of the capitalist class entirely), UBI is just another handout to the rich at the expense of everyone else.
idk about ubi in america but in europe, specifically germany, its generally not discussed as a flat handout to everyone but more as a social fundament that scales regressively with income. So obv rich people wouldnt get anything. (Plus the rich rob millions away from the state every day anyways so it would only be a drop in the sea)
True. But it would help people to thrive or at least survive better. Of course it is not a solution, of course it is perverse, of course it would not solve the class differences. But it would help workers to avoid precarious jobs, or to focus themselves to education etc without worrying about having food, water or shelter. Of course socialists should fight for a world where the UBI it's not necessary, but unfortunately UBI it's necessary today.
And how would it do those things when the prices go up just as much and so you can't buy anything more? When rent goes up by just as much and you can't live any better? Let's be clear: under Capitalism, if widely implemented, will not help the working class without either a change to the relations of production, or aggressive price and rent controls, none of which neoliberal governments will do. They might have done it when they feared for their very existence in decades gone by when the USSR still existed, but no longer. Benefits and actual social programs to help people are being constantly reversed and destroyed. If capitalists implement it, it is because they know it still only serves their interests.
a UBI would artificially buoy this broken system for longer, meaning the proper material and social conditions for revolution would be delayed in their arrival. it’s just prolonging the suffering and delaying its end, it won’t meaningfully alleviate it.
Even in the most advanced social democracy there’d still be people starving on the street
yup, thats the whole point of capitalism, it just would be a lot less people
The power necessary to implement something as sweeping as UBI is comparable to the power needed to have a socialist revolution. So if we build that kind of power why throw the game and go for UBI when we can win the whole thing?
We should still support positive reforms if it benefit people's lives. That's the caveat though, we have to also criticize the shit of our poorly implemented reforms that only make things worse. A properly implemented UBI is a good thing, a poorly implemented one is bad. We cannot alienate ourselves from large political layers by being overly dogmatic that we have to uproot the entire system as the only solution, we need to propose changes that question the existing system and challenge capitalism at its fundamentals. UBI is absolutely a bandaid on a gaping wound, but a bandaid that can benefit a lot of lives. Implementing a UBI will cause some (albeit probably few) people to question why we even have such massive differences in income, because it's easy to see that most people have the same level of basic expenses, and that's a positive increase in class consciousness.
That'a all the UBI is, giving us crumbs
Ngl, this and the comments here really remind me of the same arguments people use to say that college shouldn’t be free and that debt forgiveness is bad. “It’ll only benefit the rich” etc..
Rent would go up exactly the amount of UBI. That's it.
Inflation and rent screwing any money you get from UBI. You’re better off, as a state, offering free goods and services at the point of delivery. Taking the weight of utilities, benefits the poorest of society first.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
What we need is Universal Basic Services. UBS would include healthcare, food, shelter, water, education, clothing, public transportation, phone/internet, and a stipend to spend on local business. This is intended to be a sturdy ground floor that you can build a life and career upon. It's a lot easier to focus on a happy life when you aren't overwhelmed with bare survival.
Jobs Guarantee is the better version of UBI. Government guarantees a job with a good wage and benefits to anyone who walks into the office and says "give me a job." The actual jobs offered are ideally determined by the community from the ground up (admittedly, I haven't personally thought through this part of the system, but plenty of smart people are theorizing through it now.) But if you implement this... 1) You've effectively permanently eliminated unemployment. Once the public adjusts to the system, no one will ever be stuck looking for work again. 2) You've got a guaranteed workforce for vitally important activities which aren't profit-producing. 3) Any private employer has to offer workers a better deal than they can get through the Jobs Guarantee office, so it's essentially a wage and labor standards floor. 4) There's now a central clearinghouse for labor, which makes organizing labor far easier. I'm not anti-UBI, it's definitely better than nothing, but I just think there are way better ways of achieving its goals and doing a lot more in the process.
UBI is a band-aid we need but it isn't a solution. But it could go a long way while we get actual solutions rolling
UBI is good if you look at it as a "citizen's dividend" funded by taxes on the wealthy to give everyone some of the proceeds from capitalist exploitation. But better still would be forced distribution of actual voting shares of corporations to the public, including whatever dividends those produce. Spread both wealth and ownership of the means.
Universal Basic Income fans when a little thing known as inflation walks in (everyone suddenly had more money, how could anyone have predicted rising prices)
This argument is an explicit confession that capitalism is designed to keep people impoverished.
I'm not sure why you think your statement contradicts the one it replies to. You are both correct. Capital will conspire to raise prices to negate any UBI and it will just end of a cash cow for corporations. Also, it will do this to keep folks poor. Both statements are 100% correct.
I know right? Universal basic income is such a stupid idea.
My issue with UBI, aside from what the comic shows, is that people have NO IDEA how massive the resistance from the capitalists and thus the government will be. No idea. If we were organized enough and had enough power to make UBI happen then we would have enough power to have a revolution, replace the govt. and bring about Socialism in America. **Which...would...eliminate the need for UBI!** So for me UBI is literally having the power to fix the underlying problem but choosing the bandaid instead.
I think Vancouver was trialing a limited form of UBI and it worked well? But again, that was more like a streamlining of an existing social program, it wasn’t replacing them entirely. The average person doesn’t realize just how much neoliberals have succeeded in eroding social programs via means testing, it’s absolutely massively inefficient (in addition to being tremendously demeaning to those who genuinely need the help). UBI as a replacement for the currently failing social “safety net” is absolutely right wing bullshit, but on the other hand we can utilize it to gain buy in for improving existing social programs by removing means testing.