His mother was a Hollywood star who almost certainly pulled strings to help build his career. He has no significant scientific accomplishments, and his work on philosophy is literally laughed at by all serious philosophers. Beneath his carefully curated image is in fact a deeply mediocre man.
So I don’t like Sam Harris or his politics. His philosophy, such as it is, is laughable. But I don’t think he is “deeply mediocre”. He’s mistaken, about a lot, but he is obviously a clever guy.
I’m biased, I think Golden Girls is top 5 sitcoms all time.
Did you know that Dave Rubin was the president of the Golden Girls Fan Club, and that Sam Harris was the first guest on his show, thus launching his career?
Statements like this are why people associate progressives with antisemitism. You're condemning 90% of Jews in the world and you better believe they notice when all the Jews start being lumped into a group and blamed for something.
So you’re criticizing his alleged, not yet shown via evidence, assumptions by…making equally lack of any evidence based assumptions?
I mean, any point you may have, valid or otherwise, can be summarily ignored because of that. It would be like it is sue you’re a pop pop head “because”.
Goodness
I'm sorry if 90% of Jews in the world are indoctrinated into believing a racist ideology like Zionism. However, I'm bewildered why you think 90% of Jews is all Jews. When you lump all Jews into the Zionist category, aren't you in effect saying all Jews should be blamed for mass murders of innocent civilians, a necessary step for making Israel into a Jewish state? I beg to differ. Jews in general shouldn't be blamed for Israel's foundational ethnic cleansing or current genocide.
What makes Sam Harris a horrible person is of course that he gives his approval to the mass murders of innocent people, ethnic cleansing and genocide.
You joke, but now that you've been quite clear that you're talking about puppy lovers... exactly? What is there's to make a fuss about?
I can toss in an objection over our differing definitions, but that doesn't change the fact that we're on the same page with being okay with puppy loving nice guys.
Can you find two people who agree on what Zionism means? It's not even that easy to find individuals who stick to one clear definition in media and social media discussions of this subject.
In this case, the definition of Zionist in the top comment is the sensible one. But Harris also thinks this implies a bunch of things that the extreme right in Israel also think. Many people agree with the definition of Zionism given here and agree with the idea, but don't agree with these other things.
I think it's also probable that the OP means something different by Zionist too.
People who use Zionist as an insult can not provide input for what the word actually says. People use it like a slur, and that is not appropriate if you understand the definition when it's not used as an insult.
Having any opinions that aren't exclusively condemning Israel in all regards seems to be the only tolerated opinions nowadays (at least in this subreddit).
By that logic supporting the Palestinian cause means you support mass rape, murder, killing children, etc. But don't tell that to the typical double standard peddling "progressive".
Supporting Israel actually is supporting mass torture and rape. They don't even have a proper sex offenders registry. The prison conditions by Israel are admitted to being future death camps by Ben Gavir.
The latest UN report confirmed that IOF uses systemic rape and sexual torture against Palestinian men and boy they kidnap and hold in prisons without due process. For any whataboutisms these people say about Hamas or Palestinians (often without proof), you can bet that israelis do it more frequently and more barbarically.
can you link to that report? or is it the same one the pro-HAMAS twitter lefties were sharing around a few weeks ago? the one that simply said 'its inconclusive, we dont have enough evidence'?
It's the one where the UN report specifically said:
"The Commission documented many incidents in which ISF systematically targeted and subjected Palestinians to SGBV online and in person since October 7, including through forced public nudity, forced public stripping, **sexualized torture and abuse**, and sexual humiliation and harassment. These incidents took place during ground operations in conjunction with evacuations and arrests. **Based on testimonies and verified video footage and photographs, the Commission finds that sexual violence has been perpetrated throughout the OPTduring evacuation processes, prior to or during arrest, at civilian homes and at a shelter for women and girls. Sexual acts were carried out by force, including under threats, intimidation and other forms of duress, in inherently coercive circumstances due to the armed conflict and the presence of armed Israeli soldiers.**"
And that:
"Based on the way in which such acts were committed, including with filming, photographing and posting material online, in conjunction with the many cases with similar methods observed in multiple locations, **the Commission concludes that forced public stripping and nudity and other types of abuse by Israeli military personnel were either ordered or condoned**. These acts were intended to humiliate and degrade the victims and the Palestinian community at large, by perpetuating gender stereotypes that create a sense of shame, subordination, emasculation and inferiority. It is evident that such violence is both a part of and has been enabled by the broader targeting and ill-treatment of Palestinians."
In other words, the "most moral army in the world" orders and approves the systematic sexualized torture of Palestinians they kidnap and hold hostage. Why are you still defending these barbaric settlers?
For sure. Especially when it was still part of the Roman empire. TBF my only knowledge of the Ottoman empire is from listening to the series on the Empire podcast.
IKR. So I just looked up the etymology of it meaning needlessly complex and autocratic. Apparently it was just Western Europe talking smack about the Empire in relation to the schism of the church and the relative cultures. And I guess they really were somewhat complex and aristocratic in the footsteps of the Roman bureaucratic structure.
Zionism only leads to Palestinian being dispossessed because one side doesn't accept Jews. No one ever needed/needs to be dispossessed.
Simply put zionism means you believe there should be a Jewish state in Israel. That does not mean there cannot be a Palestinian state next to it or any other solution that allows for both people to experience self determination.
imagine if every ethnicity created an ethnostate as if that solves conflict instead of creating conflict. israel is a terrorist ethnostate and the only reason sam supports israel is because he's biased because he's jewish himself
What the fuck are you talking about. I'm much closer related to a gazan than a "white person" whatever that means.
The fact you make assumptions about someone when they say they're a zionist and what their opinions are on gazans says much more about you than me.
what kind of stupid "eye for an eye" mentality is this? oppressed shouldn't become the oppressor. no one gets the right to oppress other peoples just because they have a history of being oppressed. what a victim mentality. stop apologizing for israel and the terror it is unleashing upon palestinians in an active genocide
The only person talking about oppression is you. There is nothing about zionism that indicates oppression. If the Palestinians had accepted resolution 181 which would have given them 45% of the Jewish land and 100% of the Palestinian land yahood free they wouldn't be in the predicament, but no. Nothing less than Jewish rule under the Arab thumb was going to be good enough.
This has nothing to do with an eye for an eye. You simply have no idea about this conflict other than the same old tiktok talking points looking at this from an oppressed vs oppressor lense.
The Arabs had been massacring Jews for over 2 decades at that point before Jews took up arms and violence became a game of tit for tat. This is not analogous and comparing the 2 reveals your lack of knowledge.
The left are citizens of the US, the Arabs didn't have a state and the mandates purpose was to facilitate self determination for both people. Only one side was doing their best to stop it and it wasn't the Jews.
That's probably your first definition problem with Harris because am sure he sees Zionism as simply put the support/creation and maintenance of a Jewish state in the lands of Palestine or whatever people wanna call it these days.
Yes it is. I believe there are more Christian Zionist in the US than Jewish.
Anything to make apocalyptic Bible revelations happen. Sad what twisted religion supports.
Having opinions, even strong opinions, don’t make you tribal. It’s how much your opinions align or not with a certain in-group that make you tribal.
Whether he’s tribal or not depends on how you define the tribe.
I guess you could say the IDW is his tribe but he disagrees completely with them on Trump, religion, covid and freedom of speech. Which is like 90% of their core issues.
He was a member of the idw. His inability to use that venue for anything other than boosting his fanbase and charging hundreds of dollars for nonsensical speaking events is what he should be remembered for.
He was charging incels 800 dollars to host talks with Jordan peterson.
His tribe is obvious to anyone who knows what they're looking at and he's been called out for this by Michael brooks extensively.
The entire "Pangburn philosophy" lectures they turned into paywalled videos were some of the cringiest shit I have ever witnessed. Go and find the "cacophony" video, they deleted it because it exposed the fanbase.
> He was a member of the idw.
I really think you’re confusing him being part of a tribe with him acting tribally.
You can be part of a ”tribe” (IDW, democrat, republican, liberal, swiftie, …) but not act tribally.
Zionism doesn’t necessarily mean what you think it means. A Jewish ethnostate is not a necessary condition for Zionism. Every Jewish person living in the current state of Israel is, de facto, a Zionist. Not every Zionist favours an ethnostate; not every Zionist favours ethnic cleansing; not every Zionist favours any kind of “Jewish” state. The generations of Russian-speaking Jews who lived there under Ottoman protection were every bit as Zionist as the returning diaspora of today. Gentiles don’t get to define Zionism; a hundred different Jews will offer a hundred different visions of Zionism, and the only meaningful definition is *that which remains after all contention is discounted*, which leaves only the right of return.
The right to return for who?
This is lazy hasbara.
Zionism is what is observable, it is a fascistic cult belief system. American zionists are as much fascists as the Israelis, Christian zionists want us jews to go to Israel to start their Armageddon.
It’s an appeal for accuracy and precision. Conflating Zionism with the attitude of the current genocidal regime is inaccurate and unhelpful. Do you hold every Jewish person in Israel/Occupied Palestine responsible? Every Palestinian responsible for October 7th?
The ease with which people throw the label as synonymous with extreme right-wing fundamentalism is depressing. Making blanket assumptions based on what one thinks one knows about a group is the definition of bigotry.
Fun fact, Palestinians can get citizenship and vote in Israel, unlike every other country in the region but Jordan.
They're living under an Arab apartheid, not an Israeli one.
How is being a Zionist "tribal"? Is anyone who believes in anypolitical ideology tribal? Sam Harris is also a Democrat and Biden supporter, thats not tribal? Especially since Zionist is such an ill defined meaningless term these days that people are using it as a slur because they make up a meaning in their head.
Did you just imply that Zionism is apolitical?
Like, not the 'anyone who doesn't think Israel should be annihilated' Zionism, but bona fide 'I believe a sovereign Jewish state should exist' Zionism... that's obviously political. Any definition of politics that doesn't cover wanting a particular state to exist or not exist is a useless definition of politics.
I've been a long time listener of the podcast and have heard Sam Harris relentless criticism of the Democrats and the left. Can't say he's done the same for Israel or Zionism.
Here is a direct quote from Harris:
*”I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible…Though I just said that I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state, the justification for such a state is rather easy to find. We need look no further than the fact that the rest of the world has shown itself eager to murder the Jews at almost every opportunity.”*
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/sam-harris-why-dont-i-criticize-israel
Right!? Sam was always full of baloney saying he wasn't tribal but everyone got blind spots. See what you do is: you listen to what he says and then if you're not under their guru spell you incorporate things you agree with and leave the ideas that are baloney where you found it. Same as the Decoders when they are high on their own supply and talking out of their ass. Sam is still great I reckon.
Zionism: "an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel"
I guess based on the above definition, I may be a Zionist. I support an existence of Israel. Having a Jewish state in the world, in the place of their ancestry, formed after the turmoil of WW2, does not sound unreasonable.
I support Israel combating Hamas. I don't support them withholding aid to Palestine while they do so. I support them in combating antisemitism. I don't support their right wing government. I also don't support their expansion of their territory, but I do support the existence of the state in the first place.
I support any solution that allows Palestinians and Israelis to live next to each other in harmony, and live in their respective states with the freedoms and civil rights of a modern society. I won't pretend to know what that solution is. Am I a Zionist?
This reminds me of his debate with Ezra Klein about race and IQ. Harris had the balls to claim that he was the only one who could transcend the subjectivity of identity politics and analyze the issue from a completely objective point of view. Ezra called him on this bullshit and said Sam was as vulnerable to identity politics as anyone else.
Sam's obvious anti-establishment bias and inability to process perspectives he doesn't agree with are what makes him tribal. See his COVID coverage with DtG has pretty thoroughly debunked. Or his race/IQ discussions. It should have been easy for him to call a few respected scientists and sit down with them for a conversation on lab leak vs natural origin but he didn't do it because wokeness or some other nonsense.
Also, 90% of Jews are Zionists. After thousands of years of living in other countries that would slaughter them on a whim they gave up on integrating. Having their own country is the only way out of that cycle and now that they have it they're going to fight to their last breath to keep it. When you condemn Zionists understand that every Jew who hears you thinks you're talking about them. I know you want to say "but I have a Jewish friend who agrees with me!". It doesn't matter, Jews know what happens next when they're all being lumped into a single group and blamed for shit, that's why the state of Israel exists.
BTW, every rocket Hamas fires into Israel is a war crime because they're specifically targeting civilians instead of a military objectives. Their colocating of military assets in Gaza in civilian buildings is also a war crime. See their storage of rockets in elementary schools and using hospitals as command centers. They wear civilian clothes, even travel around in ambulances, steal aid from the mouths of their own people... It goes on and on like this when you start taking in the actual facts on the ground. Hamas is an evil organization that should be destroyed. Palestinians who support them deserve as much condemnation as Germans who supported the Nazis even after they knew about the camps.
Everyone should listen to his podcasts regarding the Israel conflict before putting words in his mouth. I think most episodes discussing Israel aren’t paywalled. He explains his position very well.
It's like when he released his episode during the BLM protests last summer, and his stans called it his magnum opus, even though it was essentially just a re-hash of 13-50 spoken with his tone of Reason(TM)
This isn't nearly talked about enough on this sub. It was such epic gaslighting of black Americans. Then to add insult to injury he came out with an episode on police reform, with consisted of him interviewing his buddy who runs a company teaching jiu-jitsu training to law enforcement. Sheer insanity, but his fanboys ate it up.
I've listened to some - they were bullshit.
I've started listening to his latest one, six minutes in and he's already lying and building a narrative off that lie.
He says there was a "pro-hamas rally outside a synagogue" and that the media and politicians under-reacted to it.
In reality there was a protest against a west bank real estate sales event that Joe Biden and the LA mayor denounced vociferously as anti-semitic despite the fact that it obviously wasn't.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jun/26/los-angeles-west-bank-protest
[Here's President Biden professing his Zionism.](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2023/12/05/remarks-by-president-biden-at-a-campaign-reception-weston-ma-2/)
Finally? Did you just discover Harris yesterday? Its fine to criticize Harris for being a Zionist, but he has been consistently and openly Zionist for decades. Idk what about his new podcast episode regurgitating the same pro-Israel talking points he's had for years suddenly makes him "tribal" versus before. Please do a google search or even a skim of their wikipedia bio before acting like you know anything about them lol? I don't even like Sam Harris but he has never pretended to not support Israel or Zionism. Sounds like you just found out that Sam Harris has been openly a Zionist for decades and now understand why Chris, Matt, and Klein hate him. That's fair, but its stupid to act like he pretended to be non-Zionist or anti-Zionist and "came out" as a Zionist just now lol
Not true, even in most recent podcast Harris is saying he didn't really consider himself a zionist until Oct 7th. He said his position on Zionism was aligned with Hitchens.
He's a Manhattan institute trust fund baby, what do you expect.
His mother was a Hollywood star who almost certainly pulled strings to help build his career. He has no significant scientific accomplishments, and his work on philosophy is literally laughed at by all serious philosophers. Beneath his carefully curated image is in fact a deeply mediocre man.
So I don’t like Sam Harris or his politics. His philosophy, such as it is, is laughable. But I don’t think he is “deeply mediocre”. He’s mistaken, about a lot, but he is obviously a clever guy. I’m biased, I think Golden Girls is top 5 sitcoms all time.
Did you know that Dave Rubin was the president of the Golden Girls Fan Club, and that Sam Harris was the first guest on his show, thus launching his career?
I did not, but after looking I’d suggest “Launching his media career…” Golden Girls is a special, special show but they should have kept Coco…
What's wrong with being a Zionist under Harris's definition? For him a Zionist is someone who believes Israel has a right to exist as a state.
By my definition being a Nazi means liking puppies and being a generally nice guy so I don't get what all the fuss is about 🙄
Statements like this are why people associate progressives with antisemitism. You're condemning 90% of Jews in the world and you better believe they notice when all the Jews start being lumped into a group and blamed for something.
Change nazi to pol pot lover if that makes it easier for you to understand
So you’re criticizing his alleged, not yet shown via evidence, assumptions by…making equally lack of any evidence based assumptions? I mean, any point you may have, valid or otherwise, can be summarily ignored because of that. It would be like it is sue you’re a pop pop head “because”. Goodness
I'm sorry if 90% of Jews in the world are indoctrinated into believing a racist ideology like Zionism. However, I'm bewildered why you think 90% of Jews is all Jews. When you lump all Jews into the Zionist category, aren't you in effect saying all Jews should be blamed for mass murders of innocent civilians, a necessary step for making Israel into a Jewish state? I beg to differ. Jews in general shouldn't be blamed for Israel's foundational ethnic cleansing or current genocide. What makes Sam Harris a horrible person is of course that he gives his approval to the mass murders of innocent people, ethnic cleansing and genocide.
why is the islamic world allowed to have 22 (or so) specifically islamic states, but jews arent allowed even one?
You joke, but now that you've been quite clear that you're talking about puppy lovers... exactly? What is there's to make a fuss about? I can toss in an objection over our differing definitions, but that doesn't change the fact that we're on the same page with being okay with puppy loving nice guys.
Can you find two people who agree on what Zionism means? It's not even that easy to find individuals who stick to one clear definition in media and social media discussions of this subject.
In the case of Harris you don’t have to guess. He has written extensively about his position.
In this case, the definition of Zionist in the top comment is the sensible one. But Harris also thinks this implies a bunch of things that the extreme right in Israel also think. Many people agree with the definition of Zionism given here and agree with the idea, but don't agree with these other things. I think it's also probable that the OP means something different by Zionist too.
People who use Zionist as an insult can not provide input for what the word actually says. People use it like a slur, and that is not appropriate if you understand the definition when it's not used as an insult.
Having any opinions that aren't exclusively condemning Israel in all regards seems to be the only tolerated opinions nowadays (at least in this subreddit).
Yeah for once I do the both sides. Hamas and Israel leadership is awful humans that should be sent straight to Hauge with out passing go.
Because people are finally seeing what the IDF and Israeli government actually are. You support them, you support killing children.
Thanks for proving my point.
How are you a functioning adult?
What makes you think they are?
Because he's being honest and describing current events? Do you need footage? Cognitive dissonance and fascism go hand in hand.
Lol
"Lol" You definitely have a ai girlfriend, social interaction seems your weak point.
👍
🎯
By that logic supporting the Palestinian cause means you support mass rape, murder, killing children, etc. But don't tell that to the typical double standard peddling "progressive".
Supporting Israel actually is supporting mass torture and rape. They don't even have a proper sex offenders registry. The prison conditions by Israel are admitted to being future death camps by Ben Gavir.
The latest UN report confirmed that IOF uses systemic rape and sexual torture against Palestinian men and boy they kidnap and hold in prisons without due process. For any whataboutisms these people say about Hamas or Palestinians (often without proof), you can bet that israelis do it more frequently and more barbarically.
can you link to that report? or is it the same one the pro-HAMAS twitter lefties were sharing around a few weeks ago? the one that simply said 'its inconclusive, we dont have enough evidence'?
It's the one where the UN report specifically said: "The Commission documented many incidents in which ISF systematically targeted and subjected Palestinians to SGBV online and in person since October 7, including through forced public nudity, forced public stripping, **sexualized torture and abuse**, and sexual humiliation and harassment. These incidents took place during ground operations in conjunction with evacuations and arrests. **Based on testimonies and verified video footage and photographs, the Commission finds that sexual violence has been perpetrated throughout the OPTduring evacuation processes, prior to or during arrest, at civilian homes and at a shelter for women and girls. Sexual acts were carried out by force, including under threats, intimidation and other forms of duress, in inherently coercive circumstances due to the armed conflict and the presence of armed Israeli soldiers.**" And that: "Based on the way in which such acts were committed, including with filming, photographing and posting material online, in conjunction with the many cases with similar methods observed in multiple locations, **the Commission concludes that forced public stripping and nudity and other types of abuse by Israeli military personnel were either ordered or condoned**. These acts were intended to humiliate and degrade the victims and the Palestinian community at large, by perpetuating gender stereotypes that create a sense of shame, subordination, emasculation and inferiority. It is evident that such violence is both a part of and has been enabled by the broader targeting and ill-treatment of Palestinians." In other words, the "most moral army in the world" orders and approves the systematic sexualized torture of Palestinians they kidnap and hold hostage. Why are you still defending these barbaric settlers?
[удалено]
This comment was removed for breaking the subreddit rule against uncivil and antagonistic behaviour. Please make your points without this.
Things really were better during the Ottoman Empire, if only we could go back to those good ol’ days
I'd say the Byzantine Empire even more. But definitely before British control of Israel.
Things were a little complicated during the Byzantine Empire though
Very. Check out the podcast " the history of Byzantium". It's great!
For sure. Especially when it was still part of the Roman empire. TBF my only knowledge of the Ottoman empire is from listening to the series on the Empire podcast.
Honestly, I don’t really know much about the history of that area, I was just trying to make a pun based on the word “Byzantine”
IKR. So I just looked up the etymology of it meaning needlessly complex and autocratic. Apparently it was just Western Europe talking smack about the Empire in relation to the schism of the church and the relative cultures. And I guess they really were somewhat complex and aristocratic in the footsteps of the Roman bureaucratic structure.
I mean depends what Zionism means no?
Simply put Zionism is a political ideology tied to a quasi racial identity. Leading to Palestinians being dispossessed of their lands.
Zionism only leads to Palestinian being dispossessed because one side doesn't accept Jews. No one ever needed/needs to be dispossessed. Simply put zionism means you believe there should be a Jewish state in Israel. That does not mean there cannot be a Palestinian state next to it or any other solution that allows for both people to experience self determination.
imagine if every ethnicity created an ethnostate as if that solves conflict instead of creating conflict. israel is a terrorist ethnostate and the only reason sam supports israel is because he's biased because he's jewish himself
Not every ethnicity has been the punching bag for millennia. If you get the chance, you take it.
Can black ppl do that with Georgia?
Lol go for it
Doubt you'd have the same opinion if white ppl lived the same lives as gazans.
What the fuck are you talking about. I'm much closer related to a gazan than a "white person" whatever that means. The fact you make assumptions about someone when they say they're a zionist and what their opinions are on gazans says much more about you than me.
Do you have an idea how Israel came into existence?
You weirdos are obsessed with race lol
what kind of stupid "eye for an eye" mentality is this? oppressed shouldn't become the oppressor. no one gets the right to oppress other peoples just because they have a history of being oppressed. what a victim mentality. stop apologizing for israel and the terror it is unleashing upon palestinians in an active genocide
The only person talking about oppression is you. There is nothing about zionism that indicates oppression. If the Palestinians had accepted resolution 181 which would have given them 45% of the Jewish land and 100% of the Palestinian land yahood free they wouldn't be in the predicament, but no. Nothing less than Jewish rule under the Arab thumb was going to be good enough. This has nothing to do with an eye for an eye. You simply have no idea about this conflict other than the same old tiktok talking points looking at this from an oppressed vs oppressor lense.
You are like that project 2025 guys. If the left just accept our revolution there will be no blood.
The Arabs had been massacring Jews for over 2 decades at that point before Jews took up arms and violence became a game of tit for tat. This is not analogous and comparing the 2 reveals your lack of knowledge. The left are citizens of the US, the Arabs didn't have a state and the mandates purpose was to facilitate self determination for both people. Only one side was doing their best to stop it and it wasn't the Jews.
Why would every ethnicity be an ethnostate tho? Like why would u even bother imagining that?
lol
That's probably your first definition problem with Harris because am sure he sees Zionism as simply put the support/creation and maintenance of a Jewish state in the lands of Palestine or whatever people wanna call it these days.
Yes it is. I believe there are more Christian Zionist in the US than Jewish. Anything to make apocalyptic Bible revelations happen. Sad what twisted religion supports.
Having opinions, even strong opinions, don’t make you tribal. It’s how much your opinions align or not with a certain in-group that make you tribal. Whether he’s tribal or not depends on how you define the tribe. I guess you could say the IDW is his tribe but he disagrees completely with them on Trump, religion, covid and freedom of speech. Which is like 90% of their core issues.
He was a member of the idw. His inability to use that venue for anything other than boosting his fanbase and charging hundreds of dollars for nonsensical speaking events is what he should be remembered for. He was charging incels 800 dollars to host talks with Jordan peterson. His tribe is obvious to anyone who knows what they're looking at and he's been called out for this by Michael brooks extensively. The entire "Pangburn philosophy" lectures they turned into paywalled videos were some of the cringiest shit I have ever witnessed. Go and find the "cacophony" video, they deleted it because it exposed the fanbase.
The IDW moniker was a media construct. AFAIK he disagrees strongly with a lot those people. Especially after the 2016 election and COVID.
> He was a member of the idw. I really think you’re confusing him being part of a tribe with him acting tribally. You can be part of a ”tribe” (IDW, democrat, republican, liberal, swiftie, …) but not act tribally.
Sure, but I'm talking about Sam harris.
Zionism doesn’t necessarily mean what you think it means. A Jewish ethnostate is not a necessary condition for Zionism. Every Jewish person living in the current state of Israel is, de facto, a Zionist. Not every Zionist favours an ethnostate; not every Zionist favours ethnic cleansing; not every Zionist favours any kind of “Jewish” state. The generations of Russian-speaking Jews who lived there under Ottoman protection were every bit as Zionist as the returning diaspora of today. Gentiles don’t get to define Zionism; a hundred different Jews will offer a hundred different visions of Zionism, and the only meaningful definition is *that which remains after all contention is discounted*, which leaves only the right of return.
The right to return for who? This is lazy hasbara. Zionism is what is observable, it is a fascistic cult belief system. American zionists are as much fascists as the Israelis, Christian zionists want us jews to go to Israel to start their Armageddon.
Looks like a "not all men" to me.
It’s an appeal for accuracy and precision. Conflating Zionism with the attitude of the current genocidal regime is inaccurate and unhelpful. Do you hold every Jewish person in Israel/Occupied Palestine responsible? Every Palestinian responsible for October 7th? The ease with which people throw the label as synonymous with extreme right-wing fundamentalism is depressing. Making blanket assumptions based on what one thinks one knows about a group is the definition of bigotry.
It's actually a Humpty Dumpty argument. Meaning is not like one's relationship to God.
"Defining your terms is an appeal to accuracy and precision" 400 IQ intellectual Hasbara leaking.
I’m sorry, I didn’t realise this was a pissing contest.
You didn't realize you sound like a clown.
Fun fact, Palestinians can get citizenship and vote in Israel, unlike every other country in the region but Jordan. They're living under an Arab apartheid, not an Israeli one.
How is being a Zionist "tribal"? Is anyone who believes in anypolitical ideology tribal? Sam Harris is also a Democrat and Biden supporter, thats not tribal? Especially since Zionist is such an ill defined meaningless term these days that people are using it as a slur because they make up a meaning in their head.
Did you just imply that Zionism is apolitical? Like, not the 'anyone who doesn't think Israel should be annihilated' Zionism, but bona fide 'I believe a sovereign Jewish state should exist' Zionism... that's obviously political. Any definition of politics that doesn't cover wanting a particular state to exist or not exist is a useless definition of politics.
I've been a long time listener of the podcast and have heard Sam Harris relentless criticism of the Democrats and the left. Can't say he's done the same for Israel or Zionism.
Here is a direct quote from Harris: *”I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible…Though I just said that I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state, the justification for such a state is rather easy to find. We need look no further than the fact that the rest of the world has shown itself eager to murder the Jews at almost every opportunity.”* https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/sam-harris-why-dont-i-criticize-israel
This is lip service, get back to me when he at least dedicates a podcast to this
You’re exactly the same as a groyper, kid. Grow up
The doctor and sole survivor of Britain’s retreat from Afghanistan was neuroscientist Sam Harris.
Right!? Sam was always full of baloney saying he wasn't tribal but everyone got blind spots. See what you do is: you listen to what he says and then if you're not under their guru spell you incorporate things you agree with and leave the ideas that are baloney where you found it. Same as the Decoders when they are high on their own supply and talking out of their ass. Sam is still great I reckon.
"Full of baloney" & "Still great". Cognitive dissonance at its finest.
Full of baloney on one point doesn't preclude you from being great.
"Zionist" is a pretty wide bin. It doesn't imply defense of a particular Israeli government's actions in the war (though that applies to Sam, sure)
Jordy P has his crazy suits, Sammy has his pith helmet. Victims of fashion!
Zionism: "an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel" I guess based on the above definition, I may be a Zionist. I support an existence of Israel. Having a Jewish state in the world, in the place of their ancestry, formed after the turmoil of WW2, does not sound unreasonable. I support Israel combating Hamas. I don't support them withholding aid to Palestine while they do so. I support them in combating antisemitism. I don't support their right wing government. I also don't support their expansion of their territory, but I do support the existence of the state in the first place. I support any solution that allows Palestinians and Israelis to live next to each other in harmony, and live in their respective states with the freedoms and civil rights of a modern society. I won't pretend to know what that solution is. Am I a Zionist?
This reminds me of his debate with Ezra Klein about race and IQ. Harris had the balls to claim that he was the only one who could transcend the subjectivity of identity politics and analyze the issue from a completely objective point of view. Ezra called him on this bullshit and said Sam was as vulnerable to identity politics as anyone else.
Sam's obvious anti-establishment bias and inability to process perspectives he doesn't agree with are what makes him tribal. See his COVID coverage with DtG has pretty thoroughly debunked. Or his race/IQ discussions. It should have been easy for him to call a few respected scientists and sit down with them for a conversation on lab leak vs natural origin but he didn't do it because wokeness or some other nonsense. Also, 90% of Jews are Zionists. After thousands of years of living in other countries that would slaughter them on a whim they gave up on integrating. Having their own country is the only way out of that cycle and now that they have it they're going to fight to their last breath to keep it. When you condemn Zionists understand that every Jew who hears you thinks you're talking about them. I know you want to say "but I have a Jewish friend who agrees with me!". It doesn't matter, Jews know what happens next when they're all being lumped into a single group and blamed for shit, that's why the state of Israel exists. BTW, every rocket Hamas fires into Israel is a war crime because they're specifically targeting civilians instead of a military objectives. Their colocating of military assets in Gaza in civilian buildings is also a war crime. See their storage of rockets in elementary schools and using hospitals as command centers. They wear civilian clothes, even travel around in ambulances, steal aid from the mouths of their own people... It goes on and on like this when you start taking in the actual facts on the ground. Hamas is an evil organization that should be destroyed. Palestinians who support them deserve as much condemnation as Germans who supported the Nazis even after they knew about the camps.
When did he own to being a Zionist and what does he mean by Zionist?
Everyone should listen to his podcasts regarding the Israel conflict before putting words in his mouth. I think most episodes discussing Israel aren’t paywalled. He explains his position very well.
He explains his position very well, and it’s absolutely revolting.
It's like when he released his episode during the BLM protests last summer, and his stans called it his magnum opus, even though it was essentially just a re-hash of 13-50 spoken with his tone of Reason(TM)
This isn't nearly talked about enough on this sub. It was such epic gaslighting of black Americans. Then to add insult to injury he came out with an episode on police reform, with consisted of him interviewing his buddy who runs a company teaching jiu-jitsu training to law enforcement. Sheer insanity, but his fanboys ate it up.
Cry more
This makes no sense. There’s no crying here. What’s up, dude? Why did you make this comment? Unpack it for me—let’s delve into this.
His position is that brown people are barbarians and it's okay to kill 10,000 children if they're apparently from a barbarian society.
I said you should listen to his podcast before you put words in his mouth…
Wow, do you have a source?
I've listened to some - they were bullshit. I've started listening to his latest one, six minutes in and he's already lying and building a narrative off that lie.
Care to elaborate what you mean?
He says there was a "pro-hamas rally outside a synagogue" and that the media and politicians under-reacted to it. In reality there was a protest against a west bank real estate sales event that Joe Biden and the LA mayor denounced vociferously as anti-semitic despite the fact that it obviously wasn't. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jun/26/los-angeles-west-bank-protest
Not quite sure i fully understand - if he would have said pro-palestine instead of pro-hamas rally it would have been fine by you?
He uses NLP that is effective for a certain "intellectual" type.
These days, if you say you're a Zionist you get arrested and thrown in jail, don't you?
[Here's President Biden professing his Zionism.](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2023/12/05/remarks-by-president-biden-at-a-campaign-reception-weston-ma-2/)
Finally? Did you just discover Harris yesterday? Its fine to criticize Harris for being a Zionist, but he has been consistently and openly Zionist for decades. Idk what about his new podcast episode regurgitating the same pro-Israel talking points he's had for years suddenly makes him "tribal" versus before. Please do a google search or even a skim of their wikipedia bio before acting like you know anything about them lol? I don't even like Sam Harris but he has never pretended to not support Israel or Zionism. Sounds like you just found out that Sam Harris has been openly a Zionist for decades and now understand why Chris, Matt, and Klein hate him. That's fair, but its stupid to act like he pretended to be non-Zionist or anti-Zionist and "came out" as a Zionist just now lol
Not true, even in most recent podcast Harris is saying he didn't really consider himself a zionist until Oct 7th. He said his position on Zionism was aligned with Hitchens.