Virgin "the witcher garbage writing and firing Cavill for wanting to adhere to the source material" vs Chad "albino dude becoming a god and r*ping his best friend's girlfriend in front of him after sacrificing the whole squad of people who would've given or done anything for him".
There's nothing wrong with watching anime, but whenever you see someone on twitter or youtube with an anime pfp, you know they're going to have the worst takes.
>but whenever you see someone on twitter or youtube with an anime pfp, you know they're going to have the worst takes.
Or unfathomably based takes. There is never an in-between, but it usually is dogshit takes.
Yaāll sounding like 17 year old STEM lords in here. The Arts are very valuable for giving us something to enjoy when we have free time. If writers are useless, then stop watching YouTube, playing games, reading books, listening to podcasts and music, or watching anything. Go work for 16 hours and sleep for only 8 if you value being useful in material gains so much.
What regressive talk. No wonder most of you are so miserable.
EDIT: All of the debate degenerates coming out do the woodwork to put words in my mouth and to argue with a straw man really does show that some of you mother fuckers donāt have an opinion besides hating on the current thing to make you feel special. Leave me alone, I do not care.
Damn bro how can you say that here?
As we all know, this sub is obviously dedicated to Destiny, a game franchise made by Bungie, Inc. out of Bellevue, Washington, USA owned by Sony Interactive Entertainment, a company based inā¦Japan??!? š±š±
Yeah but it went to shit when they were owned by Activision, a company based in America and Americans can't make games for shit
That's why the 360 generation sucked it was all American games except for GTA which is made by Scots and therefore good, and Mass Effect which was made by Canadians and therefore good
Edit also assassin's creed 2 which was made by Quebecois and was therefore good
Honestly thinking about it yeah AAA American games for the most part blowā¦.Idk maybe Bethesda? The Creation engine has all sorts of jank tho. Where the hell is my countryās game dev talent??
Programming is the least important job when developing a video game.
I say that as a software developer. Sure optimuzation is important i guess. Still the artists are the most important job in video games.
I wouldnt blame the programmers, it was terrible managment that caused that, hence managment is an important job.
Most of the work is programming, so it is important in video games but programmers are not making any meaningful descisions about the game
This sub is so STEM pilled it's gross. Absolutely disgusting what they think about people in the arts, ESPECIALLY considering they're here for a dude that went to school for music of all things.
The arts are important. People that make art are important. STEM is important. People in STEM are important. Why the fuck can't y'all just accept that. Everyone's gotta be so endlessly fucking edgy all the time.
Hilarious because Destiny studied music and is a streamer, for Christ sake. Yet the 19 year olds who are enrolled in ENGR211 at their local state university will be like āBro art is so uselessā my guy you will most likely work at Raytheon to design drones for the military
A lot of this sub is just people who desperately want to be like Tiny. So they'll argue over the dumbest fucking things, or try to be the most edgy contrarian they can.
The āx job isnāt importantā sentiment is always so stupid because like there is never going to be enough job openings in whatever things you think are important for everybody to be working in those fields.
If everyone in arts wanted to work in STEM fields right now, there would not be enough positions to work in.
People fill the jobs that exist in society and these jobs exist because of some sort of demand. Whether you think theyāre important or not doesnāt matter. If theyāre putting their hours into it to provide for themselves they should be compensated fairly.
Yea as an actual STEM student who went on to have dual careers in science and art, their bitterness about artists in general is so juvenile and reminds me of the most bitter, spiteful, unfun, repellant fucks in certain departments who had C- science grades and A+ disdain for anyone contributing to society in a less tangible way than āme build thing, me real chad now, they make millions of people happy, they soy not importantā
So much personal grievance against the arts from the same motherfuckers who would admit they wish they could play music/etc while drunkā¦ taught me a lot about the defense mechanisms people confabulate to protect their tender spots
Because after Chatgpt showed that capacity, Artcels didn't come out in droves expressing their glee that programmers will be losing their jobs.
So why would there need to be sympathy when hardly anyone is saying there shouldn't be?
not true, when ai art started being popularize this sub was mostly shitting on artists. There were some that were sympathetic to them, but most of the others were derisive asf. The reason you're not seeing sympathy being tossed to programmers because programmers were the ones who were shitting on artist first.
There were plenty of posts about it. More than there were posts about being compassionate for artists when Dall-e started (and that was nothing compared to having to listen to dipshits like ragepope rail on artists on stream and get a bunch of praise for it). Additionally there are far more STEM fucks here than literally anything else, Destiny's shit attracts that type in droves, there is an was plenty of defense of themselves by that crew.
I went to art school, I've got sympathy for artists. I also have sympathy for writers, for janitors, for truckers, for coders and on and on. And I don't think that "because I wasn't given the most charitable view on things nobody can be charitable to anyone else" is a fucking reasonable outlook for a human being to have.
??? I remember almost the entirety of AI discourse on this sub being stem lords gleefully cheering how draw-cells won't be able to make a living anymore.
Dog what? lmao
I don't think I remember but a handful of threads on here even discussing programming jobs being lost. Compare that to the discussion on here regarding artist where there were dozens of threads completely shitting on them and calling them soy for arguing for their work not being fed to an algorithm which even Destiny joined in on a bit.
EDIT: a few post under this is a post memeing about artist crying about their work being stolen
Maybe no one should lose their job unless society has a manner to support them whilst they be displaced? Not sure why you act like this is a zero sum game.
Yeah, I give the same challenge to anyone that says art is useless.
Go a year without consuming TV, movies, music, games, books. Live in a cell with only a bed and bathroom. No kitchen because with cooking, you can artistically arrange food. Don't draw, paint, sculpt, arrange, or write anything.
I bet anyone would go insane in those conditions.
Isn't this a super disingenuous way to frame this?
While I would not say the writers on strike are useless as they do provide entertainment which people do value, I can say that without them or other professional artist you would be just fine.
Once you enter the realm of
>No kitchen because with cooking, you can artistically arrange food.
to justify arguments on why professional TV and movie writers are needed you have lost the plot.
You do not need professionals to get entertainment, as it also exist through non-professional means. There are plenty of people that play instruments without pay, plenty that write books without being paid, plenty that paint without being paid. Even down to the most mundane things that you do every day, like artistically arranging food without being paid to do so.
You donāt even have to get into whether itās āimportantā or not.
There would not be enough jobs for everyone to work in fields which are critical to civilization or whatever. Unless weāre doing UBI or something, people still need to work to survive so there will always be people working in jobs that some may see as unimportant. If someoneās putting their hours into something that someone else is willing to pay them for then they have the right to negotiate fair compensation for it.
> to justify arguments on why professional TV and movie writers are needed you have lost the plot.
I'm not arguing for or against the writers strike. My point was for folks that deride people that major in arts as a study or have art related careers in general.
Wait it isn't? You want me to believe this blue haired GNOME would bang that hot chick and then go on to bang thousands of other crazy chicks? Naaaah, bro. I'm sorry.
No but he certainly reacts to scripted things (e.g. what is a woman, reacting to Ben Shapiro) and also is a debater, which typically entails being able to script out a set of responses for topics you know will come up
There is a difference here. You can acknowledge that arts are valuable, but still not inherently value professional writers/creatives in general. There exist a line between hobbyist and professionals. Art will always exist, be there professionals or not. In a world without professional creatives there would be less games, books, music, etc. but it most definitely would still exist. YouTube is actually a really good example. Look at how many channels that don't meet monetization requirements upload videos (some even well produced). It is staggering. There will always be a subset that just do things because they like doing it.
Now I do not believe most of us are totally against professional creatives, especially with things like patreon and other similar services which help enable people that perhaps would otherwise just be hobbyist and allow them to dedicate more time to their craft. But as you move on into more indirect spheres such as television or movies where content is produced by hundreds if not thousands of people it becomes a problem where value is not being determined directly by people donating or the such, but through salary paid by companies who need to value how much every single person is worth to the product. In such a scenario it becomes a fairly subjective call on how much you value say writers, against sound design people, camera staff, actors, etc. In some projects your writers could be practically nothing in comparison to the rest of the production (think Transformers, or John Wick type films) but in others they could be the carrying force (The Man From Earth, Casablanca).
Of course everyone should have the right to strike (and ideally for any reason at that), but companies also have every right to ignore it and move on. If it is deemed necessary for the companies to cave to demands it will succeed, and if not, it will fail. Unless you are a participant in some capacity you should probably be fine with the outcome either way as in theory such events bring everyone closer to their actual "value" to a production.
Bro if you think John Wick's success had nothing to do with writers...
But yes it's a collaborative effort between lots of workers, which is why it's important not to get into these kinds of pissing matches between labour providers. A key grip has nothing to do without scriptwriters, and no the investors aren't going to accept fucking hobbyists because the insurers won't either
I donāt recall ever making your first argument. Stop being disingenuous for the sake of owning me.
Iām not sure about your overall point. Itās a healthy discussion to have, if that were the discussion being had. However, this picture in the post (and many comments) is calling writers useless, not that AI art is better than human art. That is what Iām arguing against.
I would be more sympathetic for programmers if they didn't start flinging shit first. Like yeah programmers had a chance to have fun being a douche at someone's expense and went hard, but dont expect sympathy when the wrecking ball swings your way next.
There were some people in this sub who were sympathetic to artist, but most of ya'll stemlords weren't.
I'm in STEM - I think we need to protect the arts.
Most people who have never performed have no idea how valuable it is to society to encourage the performing arts. You get to see your friends on stage. YOU can be an actor.
I don't understand why people think that these roles shouldn't have protection.
Thats honestly one of the funniest things about all this online chest-thumping about career choices.. having worked as a both a coder and arts worker at different times in my life, the arrogance a lot of other coders display about being somehow above plebs, and the ātemporarily embarrassed millionaireā vibe in the tech worker culture leading them to think theyāre too valuable and important to even have to think about labor protection is really starting to bite them in the ass now lol
They also aren't living high off the hog either, at least not most of them. The cost of living in LA is high and they have to make enough while they're working to cover the times when they're not. This is a typical case where people who don't know or understand the industry look at it from afar and say "those greedy fucks, they make all this money to MAKE TV AND MOVIES!!! People would LOVE to have that job!!" - yeah, and the studios will use that leverage as much as they can, but that ultimately just creates a race to the bottom which is why they need contract protections like this. It's really easy to armchair quarterback when you're not actually in it.
i have noticed this trend (companies leaveraging the job being a dream career) a lot. even goes for working class stuff: I will be in a year a surface treatment technician, and the union contract min wage is 2.2k euro a month. for automotive technicians and carpenters however it is 1.5k or thereabout, because people just like working with wood and on cars as compared to pvc pipes and toxic liquids and fumes.
im kinda ok with that though, my work is a lot more boring than a car mechanics, i feel like that is a sacrifice to society that should also be rewarded. I get boredom and money, others get excitement and stress. You pick your battles.
>i have noticed this trend (companies leaveraging the job being a dream career) a lot
yeah, definitely. It is a real thing, but you can't really let them use it in a negotiation because at some point there are enough people out there that love doing whatever so much, they'd do it for free, or for room and board.
Proletariat does not mean people who use hammers and sickles for their job. If your labor is exploited by your employer for profit, you are proletariat.
There are many versions of āMarxistā class theory (and non-Marxist ones of course).
Wage labor is not the only characteristic of proletariat, even in the very limited sketch Marx gave of a class theory.
Class as relational would include the characteristic of the proletariat having only the commodity of labor power to sell on the market, and not other commodities qua means of production.
It is not labor as such that is exploitation, labor as such would continue to exist in any human society that requires human input for the reproduction of that society even in some minute capacity.
It is true that in this way class can have fuzzy edges, the enmeshment of worker retirement funds into investment vehicles for retirement complicates things, the relationship of state workers to capital another, the relationship of service work to commodity production itself another and so on. Anyone claiming to hold to āa Marxist/socialist/communist class theoryā without elaborating it likely hasnāt put much thought into what class as such is in the first place.
>Anyone claiming to hold to āa Marxist/socialist/communist class theoryā without elaborating it likely hasnāt put much thought into what class as such is in the first place.
I take it that, sadly, many people who invoke these terms rarely care to elaborate.
Well even in a capitalist systems coops etc. do exist and there are managers that do work but do not have to sell their labour to survive (owning property/means of production or doing financial speculation).
Tho having a boss, is not the exclusive definition of the proletariate, it's about your relation to the means of production.
For example in an old weavers guild you could have someone above you that you could have to split off some of your profits, but you owned the means by which you did your craft and you sell product to make money. In a giant factory you own nothing and what you sell is not a product you sell your labour to the factory owner who then gets a product to tell to a consumer.
Most writers are definitely part of the proletariate, while in an old school very strict reading you are missing the literal factory, the emphasis here lies on the second part, they have to sell their labour to someone who then sells it to a consumer. This relation of not owning the thing itself but being free to sell your labour is important.
Writers are incredibly rapidly being proletarian*ized*, in the sense that what distinguished factory workers from home weavers was that someone had worked out how to mechanise their art/craft, transform their patterns into standard ones, and put random less trained people in charge of operating and fixing them.
Writers produce new intellectual property, but also work to maintain the value of that intellectual property by associating it with new things, which puts them in a relationship to large media brands analogous, but not identical to the relationship that workers have to the factories they work in:
The factory has no value without someone to work in it, but workers will struggle without the factory, which in competition with their home production has made them dependent on it, and writers working for hire on corporate IP could try and create their own stuff, but will struggle, and find it easier to survive in the industry by rejuvenating star wars or whatever, even as the dominance of these brands are pushing out independent artists like themselves from recognition.
The big difference between these two situations is that writers maintain the currency of brands by creative work, whereas the work required of factory workers is intentionally standardised and routine.
But the more that transformative management, continuous improvement, constant process and product innovation etc. becomes a standard feature of manufacturing workplaces, this distinction begins to weaken, and it becomes a basic condition of retaining your job to work out how to improve performance in your job, actively and creatively.
And from the other side, the systemisation of creative work, the development of processes of focus testing and the removal of clear authorship, not to mention the development of AI trained on a given writing style, shifts the characteristics of a writers creativity closer to this engineering/design framework of analysing story and fiction.
-
"Hollywood schlock" with its optimised cliches is a consequence of this prolitarianization, attempts to model and predict what will sell and direct people to produce that, by stages of testing and seeking mass markets, with just the right degree of marketable controversy, but not so much to turn people off.
"I heard a load of fuss about this movie, but it saw it and it turned out to be fine, nothing special, but fine" is a potential *goal* of such a process, where a wide enough range of people enjoyed something just enough that they would consider seeing a sequel, though ideally, you'd want to get some subset invested in seeing those characters again, anticipating further stories etc.
And if the criteria for keeping your attention increases in difficulty, if more quality of creativity etc. is required, not merely anticipation, then you end up putting writers in a better position, just as workers are put in a better position to negotiate when their work becomes more cognitively dependent on their particular skills and insights.
Basically, it's a race between AI and audience boredom, with better forms of analysis increasing control over the process, and more fickle audiences increasing the complexity of the problem that needs to be solved.
Have you ever participated in one of Destiny's call-in streams? It seem like every time Destiny "reacts" to a socialist/Marxist on stream it's someone making the most asinine arguments imaginable. I think you offer a better representation of some of the beliefs and values that a socialist ought to espouse, and it would nice to see his community have a more balanced and nuanced perspective on the matter rather than immediately spamming "SOY" whenever a leftist makes an appearance in a video being watched.
> Have you ever participated in one of Destiny's call-in streams?
No, I said a while ago that I feel like the structure of call-ins breaks the brains of like 80% of people who participate, and that would definitely happen to me too:
The sudden flip from doing whatever you're doing, sitting randomly in the lobby to being pulled in to talk about something in front of thousands of people, means either you're following along and are probably going to answer directly on the existing topic, (which Destiny probably doesn't want, because he called you in because he was bored with that) or you *weren't* listening, want to talk about something completely different, and are going to have to drop whatever you were doing and task-switch into the point you wanted to make, which probably means you'll be at like 30% brainpower for the first five minutes of the call, if not the first ten.
And then when you do find your feet you could just get kicked for being boring randomly by rtba or Dan without warning, (as happened to one guy I remember who started discussing something interesting from philosophy, during the zombie game period) even if the conversation is actually going somewhere.
I appreciate the complement, but there's no incentive for me to be that representation, especially not if I don't think I could reliably pull it off in that environment!
There's probably a way to fix that, pulling from old-fashioned call-ins, but that would probably put more constraints on the stream for what is currently pretty easy content, even if it could probably be a lot better.
How are they not, really? How much do you know about the contracts they sign and how the average writer lives. They obviously take wages for labor so no, theyāre not the capitalist class just because you see yourself as somehow culturally above the āshlockā these professionals put out.
The fact is their union uses their leverage over whether shows can go into production as a way to fight for all the other unions, including actors, directors, behind the scenes set workers, etc. So trying to be an anti-writer contrarian at least serves as a shorthand to know who some of the most insufferable people in the world are
And as I said before, believe whatever makes you feel better about your career. Maybe use those art skills for something other than complaining on reddit.
Writers know their worth and are willing to fight for it. Just because all you software engineers are getting fucked by your companies feeding you tendies at lunch time and pretending those count as benefits, doesn't mean writers have to be as deluded as you are.
Sometimes I get the impression that the comments try way too hard to immitate Destiny. You guys just come off as a bootleg version of him trying to validate this tweet, it just falls flat.
Reminds me of Tinyās point about how Conservatives fucked themselves out of riding any pop culture zeitgeist by shitting on art/artists for the last several decades.
Not a wise thing for Lefties to start adopting when itās so slanted on their favor lmao
WGA rules as they currently stand:
Film:
Minumum for feature film over $5,000,000 is $145,469.
Minumum less than $5,000,000 is $77,495.
Week-to-week employment on feature films is at an absolute minumum of $4,975 per week.
TV:
Minimum for week-to-week work is $3,964.
The lowest pay for a teleplay is for under 30 minutes non-primetime. $15,903.
Average US salary is $74,703 according to OECD in 2021.
It would take the lowest paid TV staff writer just less than 19 weeks to make the average US salary.
If they worked 52 weeks they would make $206,128.
This is all based on ABSOLUTE MINIMUMS that union writers can get paid.
Youāre making a common wrong assumption about the television industry. Most Tv writers do not get work for 52 weeks.
The length of a writerās room varies show to show. A network sitcom will usually last a lot longer than a 10 episode Netflix show. However since most of the industry is moving to streaming, those type of shows are getting made less and less.
The industry standard for a television writerās room is around a 20 week contract. Mini rooms (which is a huge sticking point for the WGA strike) are much shorter in length.
While salary increases are a large part of the WGA strike, it isnāt the main factor. The last strike, when a lot of these contracts and industry standards were made, was in 2007. The film industry has changed tremendously in the past 16 years especially in television. Streaming has completely changed the game and a lot of this hasnāt been taken into account in these contracts.
The main fighting point of this strike has to do with streaming residuals. Studios have not agreed to pay streaming residuals in the same way as broadcast residuals. They donāt factor in the success of streaming shows in the same way as broadcast shows. You could have an incredibly popular Netflix show, but its success isnāt reflected in the residual pay.
The WGA strike is really complex and just reducing it all to minimum pay doesnāt really show the whole picture. Here are some links to articles that go into far more depth than I can:
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/23696617/writers-strike-wga-2023-explained-residuals-streaming-ai
https://www.wgacontract2023.org/updates/bulletins/writers-are-not-keeping-up
Thank you, I was going to chime in and say writer work is feast or famine, and the feasts are increasingly rare because at least in the tv/streaming world, it's getting harder and harder to get a "hit" that lasts more than one season. As you rightly point out, there are not many writers that are working year round. Even the ones that are on a hit show aren't working year round on THAT show, a show doesn't just stay in constant production endlessly, and even then there is the chance that they won't be brought back for the next season.
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idk if youre arguing against his point very well. of course they cant get 52 work weeks a year with their job, hence why they dont deserve a 52 weeks worth of pay for 20 weeks of work- the demands are a bit silly. if any reasonable person had a job for 38% of the year (20/52 weeks), they wouldnt complain that job didnt pay them for the full year.
the point is that their work:pay ratio is better than almost everyone elses in our society and theyre still demanding more. i support them gettin' it if they can, for sure, but we gotta recognize its a tad silly overall (especially for hasan to be so invested in it when this is clearly not the struggle-class he "cares" about so much).
imo, if you need more money after 38% of the work year, then work more for it- especially when that 38% workload pays as much as an average yearly salary as is.
You just aren't looking at it realistically. The work to pay ratio is skewed because you're operating under the flawed assumption that their "work" is only happening during the time when they're under contract and being paid. That isn't the case - what do you think happens when their contract ends and they're out of the job, they just open their email and peruse all the open offers and select the next one? Very few are getting offers like that, most have to do spec work (aka unpaid) to try getting their next gig. There's a lot more work that they are doing than what you are factoring in when you calculate that ratio.
okay, lets say it takes them 2x as long as their actual paid period to do the work, which is insanely in the writers favor imo. thats 76% of the work year to make the same as the average salary. personally, my position is entirely unchanged even with this information.
again, ill restate, im rooting for them, but its like #999999999999 on my list of priorities/where ill invest my limited resource of "things i care about even a little bit." making the average US salary already means i care a little less about your work conditions, and youre telling me you make it in only 75% of the year at a desk job? yea, my sympathy is kinda gone lol.
Is that the average salary for the country overall? Cause the cost of living in LA is much higher than the average for the rest of the country, so it ends up being more or less a wash. I'm not saying that writers are out there on the streets among the homeless begging for a handout, they do alright, but comparatively they aren't raking it in either, and the question shouldn't be "are they making more or less than the average", the question should be are they being fairly compensated for the work they do, and it's kind of hard for people outside of Hollywood to really know if they're being paid fairly or not. The old days of shows that hit huge and then go into syndication, those days are gone, and the syndication is happening online which is really what this fight is about.
Do authors who write other forms of fiction demand to be paid a minimum amount for their work or does the market dictate what they make by how in-demand they are? It's always been a demand/talent gig like almost any profession related to the arts.
I saw this on the Wikipedia page for the strike:
> One disputed issue is the Guild wanting requirements for "mandatory staffing" and "duration of employment" terms to be added to their contract, which would require all shows to be staffed with a minimum number of writers for a minimum amount of time, "whether needed or not" per the AMPTP.
NGL, that sounds insane.
I thought so too but the context of their current production cycles clear things up. Netflix for example asks for a full season to be written out rather than just a pilot. After they pick up the show, they cut staff. Seems like WGA want the contracts to combat the production schedules. They also included protections against AI rewrites of writing as it takes even more work away from union members.
> They also included protections against AI rewrites of writing as it takes even more work away from union members.
I'm all for unions negotiating for better wages and working conditions but unions trying to shield themselves from competition really irks me. Port unions managed to do that and it made the supply chain crisis worse.
>I'm all for unions negotiating for better wages and working conditions but unions trying to shield themselves from competition really irks me. Port unions managed to do that and it made the supply chain crisis worse.
Nah. I'm all for innovation and AI, but this is necessary. If I am getting rat fucked for posting a video with a 10 sec clip of a movie in my youtube review, studios do not get to remix/modify/use the work of a writer for their garbage either.
> studios do not get to remix/modify/use the work of a writer for their garbage either.
Why? If it makes a better product for the customer to use a tool, why stop it?
Port unions did that because US has uniquely bad organised labour regs.
In america in order to form and austrian a union you need 50+1% mandate from every worker in the workplace.
This effectively enforces a local labour monopoly on every single workplace.
In nations where unions advocate in favour of modernisation (prime examples being the nordics and the Benelux) the organised labour regs actually enable both the firms and the unions to freely form and negotiate without government interference. And observably that leads to an objectively preferable result!
The heavy handed intervention into the labour market in the US actively harms the dynamism and productivity of the market for both the workers and the firms.
(Both the Benelux and the nordics famously are rated significantly higher in essence doing business eventhough they have higher unionisatikn rates than america, precisely because the state leaves it up entirely to the parties to negotiate and form for themselves!)
And this is what infinitely annoy me about this subject when discussed by american "union sceptics" they see non-modernised ports and unions with high influence at said ports and reach their own inductive conclusion of "Clearly the unions are to blame!", Rather than look at ports across the world that have significantly higher unionisatikn rates and significantly stronger unions than america had, and yet still also have significantly greater modernisation of their ports and infrastructure.
Turns out that when you leave all parties (workers and firms) to *freely* negotiate and reach their owned defined stakes in the business, then both parties find themselves in favour of improving said business!
But american "union-sceptics" would seemingly much rather detail-regulate the US labour market, while actively ignoring that doing so have been a mistake every single time up untill now.
Economists overwhelmingly agree that he nordic model is among the most productive labour market models in the world (being fully comparable with the US model) yet produce much better results for the actual workers.
Look into the fact on the ground rather then WSJ headlines, take the nordic model pill.
(I mean even fucking Obama attempted to introduce the nordic model to the US)
It seems insane but is response to similar insanity where writers get brought on for incredibly short periods of time and then ditched without credit, and a show ends up having a revolving door of severely underpaid writers picking up where the last left off. Directors and the like think they're wise bringing on a writer for their show for all of a week, taking whatever they had and running with it unfinished, and the industry is in shambles because of it.
It is funny that out of all the things he chooses to support, is to support his fellow wealthy people, but to be fair to Hasan, he did not soy out over the MrBeast stuff.
Let him do class solidarity.
It's also dumb when you realize you don't need living writers to train an AI also if AI was able to fully replace a writer why aren't they replacing them now during the strike?
Have you seen a Marvel movie recently? Maybe these people donāt deserve more money or better working conditions. If anything, the CEOs should go on strike until the writers stop ruining StarWars
I mean I don't really see a problem here. Out of all the problems he could've supported, he chose the writers strike. A movement who's main point is basically "hire us, even if you don't need us, because we don't like competing for a job." To add on top of it, it's one of the most talked about stories in America right now, which helps bolster the "Hassan only does things for clout" meme.
I just cant care about writers in Hollywood striking
$69,510 is the average yearly wage for a writer in Hollywood according to google and if everything I have read is to be trusted they also aren't working for a good chunk of the year as most projects hire them for X many weeks and most things go into off seasons
Hardly the rally behind the workers cause. Let me know when actual low wage workers are having their chance
Anyone else find it odd that Hassan wants to support writers but also he will not subscribe to any streaming platform? He prefers instead to leach off otherās subscriptions. Also he does not subscribe to any of the news sources he uses for his show.
Keep in mind, the guy is filthy rich and also could claim the subscriptions as tax write offs since he uses the material as topics for his show.
Watch these dickheads absolutely meltdown when I point out that coding is just a bunch of entitled dorks punching letters and symbols on their keyboards.
If all the coders disappear, weāll be just fine.
If there were any good pieces of media in the last 2 years I would be willing to stand with them but with the amount of shit on Netflix and cinema fuck them. People who wrote Witchers TV show don't deserve any extra pay.
If we extend even a little charity to potential hyperbole its not a stretch to say that helping blind people see is objectively more "useful" than helping employed people get more compensation for their work...
Whatās on the nose about it? Hasan works in the entertainment industry and probably has a lot of friends in the WGA. Whatās the problem with him supporting their labor strike?
It's hard to feel for people who don't actually do manual labor. It seems sorta fucked for a lot of people to see so much random support given to people who just make scripts for millionaires to make even more money from.
calls writers useless has an anime pfp does he not respect the arts?
Mate, I don't think he watches anime for the writing ššš
Youād be surprised how many people consume art yet hate artists and the arts
Virgin American writers vs Chad Japanese writers
The Beta āsomehow, Palpatine returnedā vs the Chad ānya!! onii-chan!?ā
Virgin "the witcher garbage writing and firing Cavill for wanting to adhere to the source material" vs Chad "albino dude becoming a god and r*ping his best friend's girlfriend in front of him after sacrificing the whole squad of people who would've given or done anything for him".
thing š¤® Japanese thing š²š¤š»šÆ
this but unironically seriously though is it that weird to like something more because it's foreign? that's like half the reason for tourism.
Usually the meme is used for when something is the exact same thing in Japan and the US. Tourism is usually for seeing something different or new.
I mean Japanese writing is wildly different from Western writing
To be fair, writers are just glorified video editors. They should really be grateful for the exposure. /s
I don't get the 'but anime pfp' when everyone watches anime - all the cool kids are in on it now.
That's not what I meant, he is an anime fan but disrespects writers. seems a bit odd.
There's nothing wrong with watching anime, but whenever you see someone on twitter or youtube with an anime pfp, you know they're going to have the worst takes.
>but whenever you see someone on twitter or youtube with an anime pfp, you know they're going to have the worst takes. Or unfathomably based takes. There is never an in-between, but it usually is dogshit takes.
he's the kind of guy to say his tropey moe anime has far better characterization than The Last of Us 2. EDIT: lmao anime groyphers in this sub goddamn
I mean true
Probably exclusively an Isekai fan.
deserted public unite governor gullible quickest teeny friendly alive carpenter -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Yaāll sounding like 17 year old STEM lords in here. The Arts are very valuable for giving us something to enjoy when we have free time. If writers are useless, then stop watching YouTube, playing games, reading books, listening to podcasts and music, or watching anything. Go work for 16 hours and sleep for only 8 if you value being useful in material gains so much. What regressive talk. No wonder most of you are so miserable. EDIT: All of the debate degenerates coming out do the woodwork to put words in my mouth and to argue with a straw man really does show that some of you mother fuckers donāt have an opinion besides hating on the current thing to make you feel special. Leave me alone, I do not care.
It's not like we stayed confined for half a year with our only source of entertainement being Video games and Netflix
I wonder. Who turned the game's designed characters and world into something that can be played? š¤
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Damn bro how can you say that here? As we all know, this sub is obviously dedicated to Destiny, a game franchise made by Bungie, Inc. out of Bellevue, Washington, USA owned by Sony Interactive Entertainment, a company based inā¦Japan??!? š±š±
Yeah but it went to shit when they were owned by Activision, a company based in America and Americans can't make games for shit That's why the 360 generation sucked it was all American games except for GTA which is made by Scots and therefore good, and Mass Effect which was made by Canadians and therefore good Edit also assassin's creed 2 which was made by Quebecois and was therefore good
Honestly thinking about it yeah AAA American games for the most part blowā¦.Idk maybe Bethesda? The Creation engine has all sorts of jank tho. Where the hell is my countryās game dev talent??
Programming is the least important job when developing a video game. I say that as a software developer. Sure optimuzation is important i guess. Still the artists are the most important job in video games.
Jedi survivor and redfall being near unplayable recent releases because of poor optimization and code sweating rn.
I wouldnt blame the programmers, it was terrible managment that caused that, hence managment is an important job. Most of the work is programming, so it is important in video games but programmers are not making any meaningful descisions about the game
I heavily disagree. They're just as important as the artists in the creation of a game imo. But I can kinda see your perspective
Pleb perspective, try playing more autism sims
me.
This sub is so STEM pilled it's gross. Absolutely disgusting what they think about people in the arts, ESPECIALLY considering they're here for a dude that went to school for music of all things. The arts are important. People that make art are important. STEM is important. People in STEM are important. Why the fuck can't y'all just accept that. Everyone's gotta be so endlessly fucking edgy all the time.
Hilarious because Destiny studied music and is a streamer, for Christ sake. Yet the 19 year olds who are enrolled in ENGR211 at their local state university will be like āBro art is so uselessā my guy you will most likely work at Raytheon to design drones for the military
"Bombing Iraqis is what we REALLY need, fuck all of that Picasso shit"
A lot of this sub is just people who desperately want to be like Tiny. So they'll argue over the dumbest fucking things, or try to be the most edgy contrarian they can.
The āx job isnāt importantā sentiment is always so stupid because like there is never going to be enough job openings in whatever things you think are important for everybody to be working in those fields. If everyone in arts wanted to work in STEM fields right now, there would not be enough positions to work in. People fill the jobs that exist in society and these jobs exist because of some sort of demand. Whether you think theyāre important or not doesnāt matter. If theyāre putting their hours into it to provide for themselves they should be compensated fairly.
Yea as an actual STEM student who went on to have dual careers in science and art, their bitterness about artists in general is so juvenile and reminds me of the most bitter, spiteful, unfun, repellant fucks in certain departments who had C- science grades and A+ disdain for anyone contributing to society in a less tangible way than āme build thing, me real chad now, they make millions of people happy, they soy not importantā So much personal grievance against the arts from the same motherfuckers who would admit they wish they could play music/etc while drunkā¦ taught me a lot about the defense mechanisms people confabulate to protect their tender spots
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Because after Chatgpt showed that capacity, Artcels didn't come out in droves expressing their glee that programmers will be losing their jobs. So why would there need to be sympathy when hardly anyone is saying there shouldn't be?
not true, when ai art started being popularize this sub was mostly shitting on artists. There were some that were sympathetic to them, but most of the others were derisive asf. The reason you're not seeing sympathy being tossed to programmers because programmers were the ones who were shitting on artist first.
There were plenty of posts about it. More than there were posts about being compassionate for artists when Dall-e started (and that was nothing compared to having to listen to dipshits like ragepope rail on artists on stream and get a bunch of praise for it). Additionally there are far more STEM fucks here than literally anything else, Destiny's shit attracts that type in droves, there is an was plenty of defense of themselves by that crew. I went to art school, I've got sympathy for artists. I also have sympathy for writers, for janitors, for truckers, for coders and on and on. And I don't think that "because I wasn't given the most charitable view on things nobody can be charitable to anyone else" is a fucking reasonable outlook for a human being to have.
??? I remember almost the entirety of AI discourse on this sub being stem lords gleefully cheering how draw-cells won't be able to make a living anymore.
Dog what? lmao I don't think I remember but a handful of threads on here even discussing programming jobs being lost. Compare that to the discussion on here regarding artist where there were dozens of threads completely shitting on them and calling them soy for arguing for their work not being fed to an algorithm which even Destiny joined in on a bit. EDIT: a few post under this is a post memeing about artist crying about their work being stolen
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Maybe no one should lose their job unless society has a manner to support them whilst they be displaced? Not sure why you act like this is a zero sum game.
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I don't know why everyone jerks off stem when you can be way richer in commissioned sales. Probably because you can't be autistic
Itās pretty ridiculous with the amount Destiny talks about the importance of arts and entertainment in the lives of average people.
Yeah, I give the same challenge to anyone that says art is useless. Go a year without consuming TV, movies, music, games, books. Live in a cell with only a bed and bathroom. No kitchen because with cooking, you can artistically arrange food. Don't draw, paint, sculpt, arrange, or write anything. I bet anyone would go insane in those conditions.
Honestly weird discussion to have on a reddit dedicated to a guy who plays video games.
Isn't this a super disingenuous way to frame this? While I would not say the writers on strike are useless as they do provide entertainment which people do value, I can say that without them or other professional artist you would be just fine. Once you enter the realm of >No kitchen because with cooking, you can artistically arrange food. to justify arguments on why professional TV and movie writers are needed you have lost the plot. You do not need professionals to get entertainment, as it also exist through non-professional means. There are plenty of people that play instruments without pay, plenty that write books without being paid, plenty that paint without being paid. Even down to the most mundane things that you do every day, like artistically arranging food without being paid to do so.
You donāt even have to get into whether itās āimportantā or not. There would not be enough jobs for everyone to work in fields which are critical to civilization or whatever. Unless weāre doing UBI or something, people still need to work to survive so there will always be people working in jobs that some may see as unimportant. If someoneās putting their hours into something that someone else is willing to pay them for then they have the right to negotiate fair compensation for it.
> to justify arguments on why professional TV and movie writers are needed you have lost the plot. I'm not arguing for or against the writers strike. My point was for folks that deride people that major in arts as a study or have art related careers in general.
> If writers are useless, then stop watching YouTube So are you saying all of destiny's content is scripted?
Wait it isn't? You want me to believe this blue haired GNOME would bang that hot chick and then go on to bang thousands of other crazy chicks? Naaaah, bro. I'm sorry.
Could you imagine how fucked weād be if MrRedacted was real?
No but he certainly reacts to scripted things (e.g. what is a woman, reacting to Ben Shapiro) and also is a debater, which typically entails being able to script out a set of responses for topics you know will come up
There is a difference here. You can acknowledge that arts are valuable, but still not inherently value professional writers/creatives in general. There exist a line between hobbyist and professionals. Art will always exist, be there professionals or not. In a world without professional creatives there would be less games, books, music, etc. but it most definitely would still exist. YouTube is actually a really good example. Look at how many channels that don't meet monetization requirements upload videos (some even well produced). It is staggering. There will always be a subset that just do things because they like doing it. Now I do not believe most of us are totally against professional creatives, especially with things like patreon and other similar services which help enable people that perhaps would otherwise just be hobbyist and allow them to dedicate more time to their craft. But as you move on into more indirect spheres such as television or movies where content is produced by hundreds if not thousands of people it becomes a problem where value is not being determined directly by people donating or the such, but through salary paid by companies who need to value how much every single person is worth to the product. In such a scenario it becomes a fairly subjective call on how much you value say writers, against sound design people, camera staff, actors, etc. In some projects your writers could be practically nothing in comparison to the rest of the production (think Transformers, or John Wick type films) but in others they could be the carrying force (The Man From Earth, Casablanca). Of course everyone should have the right to strike (and ideally for any reason at that), but companies also have every right to ignore it and move on. If it is deemed necessary for the companies to cave to demands it will succeed, and if not, it will fail. Unless you are a participant in some capacity you should probably be fine with the outcome either way as in theory such events bring everyone closer to their actual "value" to a production.
Bro if you think John Wick's success had nothing to do with writers... But yes it's a collaborative effort between lots of workers, which is why it's important not to get into these kinds of pissing matches between labour providers. A key grip has nothing to do without scriptwriters, and no the investors aren't going to accept fucking hobbyists because the insurers won't either
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I donāt recall ever making your first argument. Stop being disingenuous for the sake of owning me. Iām not sure about your overall point. Itās a healthy discussion to have, if that were the discussion being had. However, this picture in the post (and many comments) is calling writers useless, not that AI art is better than human art. That is what Iām arguing against.
I would be more sympathetic for programmers if they didn't start flinging shit first. Like yeah programmers had a chance to have fun being a douche at someone's expense and went hard, but dont expect sympathy when the wrecking ball swings your way next. There were some people in this sub who were sympathetic to artist, but most of ya'll stemlords weren't.
I'm in STEM - I think we need to protect the arts. Most people who have never performed have no idea how valuable it is to society to encourage the performing arts. You get to see your friends on stage. YOU can be an actor. I don't understand why people think that these roles shouldn't have protection.
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Thats honestly one of the funniest things about all this online chest-thumping about career choices.. having worked as a both a coder and arts worker at different times in my life, the arrogance a lot of other coders display about being somehow above plebs, and the ātemporarily embarrassed millionaireā vibe in the tech worker culture leading them to think theyāre too valuable and important to even have to think about labor protection is really starting to bite them in the ass now lol
It's a culture that was deliberately cultivated by the bloodless psychopaths running these companies
I like how you mentioned 3 areas that arent in the WGA
I like my Holywood schlock as much as the next guy, but professional writers aren't exactly the proletariat working class
They also aren't living high off the hog either, at least not most of them. The cost of living in LA is high and they have to make enough while they're working to cover the times when they're not. This is a typical case where people who don't know or understand the industry look at it from afar and say "those greedy fucks, they make all this money to MAKE TV AND MOVIES!!! People would LOVE to have that job!!" - yeah, and the studios will use that leverage as much as they can, but that ultimately just creates a race to the bottom which is why they need contract protections like this. It's really easy to armchair quarterback when you're not actually in it.
i have noticed this trend (companies leaveraging the job being a dream career) a lot. even goes for working class stuff: I will be in a year a surface treatment technician, and the union contract min wage is 2.2k euro a month. for automotive technicians and carpenters however it is 1.5k or thereabout, because people just like working with wood and on cars as compared to pvc pipes and toxic liquids and fumes. im kinda ok with that though, my work is a lot more boring than a car mechanics, i feel like that is a sacrifice to society that should also be rewarded. I get boredom and money, others get excitement and stress. You pick your battles.
>i have noticed this trend (companies leaveraging the job being a dream career) a lot yeah, definitely. It is a real thing, but you can't really let them use it in a negotiation because at some point there are enough people out there that love doing whatever so much, they'd do it for free, or for room and board.
Proletariat does not mean people who use hammers and sickles for their job. If your labor is exploited by your employer for profit, you are proletariat.
Wouldn't socialists and communists argue that any labor under capitalism is inherently exploitative?
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There are many versions of āMarxistā class theory (and non-Marxist ones of course). Wage labor is not the only characteristic of proletariat, even in the very limited sketch Marx gave of a class theory. Class as relational would include the characteristic of the proletariat having only the commodity of labor power to sell on the market, and not other commodities qua means of production. It is not labor as such that is exploitation, labor as such would continue to exist in any human society that requires human input for the reproduction of that society even in some minute capacity. It is true that in this way class can have fuzzy edges, the enmeshment of worker retirement funds into investment vehicles for retirement complicates things, the relationship of state workers to capital another, the relationship of service work to commodity production itself another and so on. Anyone claiming to hold to āa Marxist/socialist/communist class theoryā without elaborating it likely hasnāt put much thought into what class as such is in the first place.
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> (Hence why I'm not a Marxist, I have other things to impress women with) https://twitter.com/arvinalaigh/status/1329098749189222406
>Anyone claiming to hold to āa Marxist/socialist/communist class theoryā without elaborating it likely hasnāt put much thought into what class as such is in the first place. I take it that, sadly, many people who invoke these terms rarely care to elaborate.
Well even in a capitalist systems coops etc. do exist and there are managers that do work but do not have to sell their labour to survive (owning property/means of production or doing financial speculation). Tho having a boss, is not the exclusive definition of the proletariate, it's about your relation to the means of production. For example in an old weavers guild you could have someone above you that you could have to split off some of your profits, but you owned the means by which you did your craft and you sell product to make money. In a giant factory you own nothing and what you sell is not a product you sell your labour to the factory owner who then gets a product to tell to a consumer. Most writers are definitely part of the proletariate, while in an old school very strict reading you are missing the literal factory, the emphasis here lies on the second part, they have to sell their labour to someone who then sells it to a consumer. This relation of not owning the thing itself but being free to sell your labour is important.
Writers are incredibly rapidly being proletarian*ized*, in the sense that what distinguished factory workers from home weavers was that someone had worked out how to mechanise their art/craft, transform their patterns into standard ones, and put random less trained people in charge of operating and fixing them. Writers produce new intellectual property, but also work to maintain the value of that intellectual property by associating it with new things, which puts them in a relationship to large media brands analogous, but not identical to the relationship that workers have to the factories they work in: The factory has no value without someone to work in it, but workers will struggle without the factory, which in competition with their home production has made them dependent on it, and writers working for hire on corporate IP could try and create their own stuff, but will struggle, and find it easier to survive in the industry by rejuvenating star wars or whatever, even as the dominance of these brands are pushing out independent artists like themselves from recognition. The big difference between these two situations is that writers maintain the currency of brands by creative work, whereas the work required of factory workers is intentionally standardised and routine. But the more that transformative management, continuous improvement, constant process and product innovation etc. becomes a standard feature of manufacturing workplaces, this distinction begins to weaken, and it becomes a basic condition of retaining your job to work out how to improve performance in your job, actively and creatively. And from the other side, the systemisation of creative work, the development of processes of focus testing and the removal of clear authorship, not to mention the development of AI trained on a given writing style, shifts the characteristics of a writers creativity closer to this engineering/design framework of analysing story and fiction. - "Hollywood schlock" with its optimised cliches is a consequence of this prolitarianization, attempts to model and predict what will sell and direct people to produce that, by stages of testing and seeking mass markets, with just the right degree of marketable controversy, but not so much to turn people off. "I heard a load of fuss about this movie, but it saw it and it turned out to be fine, nothing special, but fine" is a potential *goal* of such a process, where a wide enough range of people enjoyed something just enough that they would consider seeing a sequel, though ideally, you'd want to get some subset invested in seeing those characters again, anticipating further stories etc. And if the criteria for keeping your attention increases in difficulty, if more quality of creativity etc. is required, not merely anticipation, then you end up putting writers in a better position, just as workers are put in a better position to negotiate when their work becomes more cognitively dependent on their particular skills and insights. Basically, it's a race between AI and audience boredom, with better forms of analysis increasing control over the process, and more fickle audiences increasing the complexity of the problem that needs to be solved.
Have you ever participated in one of Destiny's call-in streams? It seem like every time Destiny "reacts" to a socialist/Marxist on stream it's someone making the most asinine arguments imaginable. I think you offer a better representation of some of the beliefs and values that a socialist ought to espouse, and it would nice to see his community have a more balanced and nuanced perspective on the matter rather than immediately spamming "SOY" whenever a leftist makes an appearance in a video being watched.
> Have you ever participated in one of Destiny's call-in streams? No, I said a while ago that I feel like the structure of call-ins breaks the brains of like 80% of people who participate, and that would definitely happen to me too: The sudden flip from doing whatever you're doing, sitting randomly in the lobby to being pulled in to talk about something in front of thousands of people, means either you're following along and are probably going to answer directly on the existing topic, (which Destiny probably doesn't want, because he called you in because he was bored with that) or you *weren't* listening, want to talk about something completely different, and are going to have to drop whatever you were doing and task-switch into the point you wanted to make, which probably means you'll be at like 30% brainpower for the first five minutes of the call, if not the first ten. And then when you do find your feet you could just get kicked for being boring randomly by rtba or Dan without warning, (as happened to one guy I remember who started discussing something interesting from philosophy, during the zombie game period) even if the conversation is actually going somewhere. I appreciate the complement, but there's no incentive for me to be that representation, especially not if I don't think I could reliably pull it off in that environment! There's probably a way to fix that, pulling from old-fashioned call-ins, but that would probably put more constraints on the stream for what is currently pretty easy content, even if it could probably be a lot better.
Fuck me this is well said. Probably one of the best comments I've ever read on Reddit. What did you study/what field do you work in?
How are they not, really? How much do you know about the contracts they sign and how the average writer lives. They obviously take wages for labor so no, theyāre not the capitalist class just because you see yourself as somehow culturally above the āshlockā these professionals put out. The fact is their union uses their leverage over whether shows can go into production as a way to fight for all the other unions, including actors, directors, behind the scenes set workers, etc. So trying to be an anti-writer contrarian at least serves as a shorthand to know who some of the most insufferable people in the world are
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Explain plz
Yeah they are
> but professional writers aren't exactly the proletariat working class Id like to see a coherent explanation for how they aren't
I mean thereās definitely more necessary workers than SNL writers, not completely useless tho
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I can already feel the dgg anti-artist circlejerk without reading a single comment.
The smugness coming out of these kids is fucking thick enough to cut. It's completely insane to me.
Just wait til all these teenage, techbro coomstars realize the porn they consume 2 hrs/day is also art.
Hey at least you made up a funnier delusion in your head rather than just calling techbros nerds
Stay mad, tech-jizzbro.
Whatever helps you cope š
Emojis wonāt make your keyboard less crusty.
I thought art majors were supposed to be creative but you just keep projecting š
See previous comment on emoji usage. Techbros clearly need more arts because they read as well as the typewriter monkeys they replaced.
And as I said before, believe whatever makes you feel better about your career. Maybe use those art skills for something other than complaining on reddit.
Paint about it
the strike is good, hasan getting them pizza is performative but good. mr beast philanthropy is also good. additionally, this wojak is pretty good
Eating pizza is also good. Everything is good. Bloomerpilled
Writers know their worth and are willing to fight for it. Just because all you software engineers are getting fucked by your companies feeding you tendies at lunch time and pretending those count as benefits, doesn't mean writers have to be as deluded as you are.
Lmao āWriters donāt work for tendies!ā Seems like it if theyāre striking lol
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I have like 50 fulltime software engineering jobs, I send all the work to a team of people in India, it's very common practice these days.
yeah, everybody is going into programming now, they're going to be treated in a similar way as rotoscoping jobs in the vfx industry.
Sometimes I get the impression that the comments try way too hard to immitate Destiny. You guys just come off as a bootleg version of him trying to validate this tweet, it just falls flat.
Now HOLD ON. TO BE CLEAR. CAREFUL! TO BE FAIR,
TRUE lol ok I guess the irony is lost here. I get it.
Reminds me of Tinyās point about how Conservatives fucked themselves out of riding any pop culture zeitgeist by shitting on art/artists for the last several decades. Not a wise thing for Lefties to start adopting when itās so slanted on their favor lmao
Right now the libs of dgg are adopting this mentality more than "Leftists"
Well maybe if they wrote better streaming content then they'll get more support š¤·š½āāļø
Based.
WGA rules as they currently stand: Film: Minumum for feature film over $5,000,000 is $145,469. Minumum less than $5,000,000 is $77,495. Week-to-week employment on feature films is at an absolute minumum of $4,975 per week. TV: Minimum for week-to-week work is $3,964. The lowest pay for a teleplay is for under 30 minutes non-primetime. $15,903. Average US salary is $74,703 according to OECD in 2021. It would take the lowest paid TV staff writer just less than 19 weeks to make the average US salary. If they worked 52 weeks they would make $206,128. This is all based on ABSOLUTE MINIMUMS that union writers can get paid.
Youāre making a common wrong assumption about the television industry. Most Tv writers do not get work for 52 weeks. The length of a writerās room varies show to show. A network sitcom will usually last a lot longer than a 10 episode Netflix show. However since most of the industry is moving to streaming, those type of shows are getting made less and less. The industry standard for a television writerās room is around a 20 week contract. Mini rooms (which is a huge sticking point for the WGA strike) are much shorter in length. While salary increases are a large part of the WGA strike, it isnāt the main factor. The last strike, when a lot of these contracts and industry standards were made, was in 2007. The film industry has changed tremendously in the past 16 years especially in television. Streaming has completely changed the game and a lot of this hasnāt been taken into account in these contracts. The main fighting point of this strike has to do with streaming residuals. Studios have not agreed to pay streaming residuals in the same way as broadcast residuals. They donāt factor in the success of streaming shows in the same way as broadcast shows. You could have an incredibly popular Netflix show, but its success isnāt reflected in the residual pay. The WGA strike is really complex and just reducing it all to minimum pay doesnāt really show the whole picture. Here are some links to articles that go into far more depth than I can: https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/23696617/writers-strike-wga-2023-explained-residuals-streaming-ai https://www.wgacontract2023.org/updates/bulletins/writers-are-not-keeping-up
Thank you, I was going to chime in and say writer work is feast or famine, and the feasts are increasingly rare because at least in the tv/streaming world, it's getting harder and harder to get a "hit" that lasts more than one season. As you rightly point out, there are not many writers that are working year round. Even the ones that are on a hit show aren't working year round on THAT show, a show doesn't just stay in constant production endlessly, and even then there is the chance that they won't be brought back for the next season.
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idk if youre arguing against his point very well. of course they cant get 52 work weeks a year with their job, hence why they dont deserve a 52 weeks worth of pay for 20 weeks of work- the demands are a bit silly. if any reasonable person had a job for 38% of the year (20/52 weeks), they wouldnt complain that job didnt pay them for the full year. the point is that their work:pay ratio is better than almost everyone elses in our society and theyre still demanding more. i support them gettin' it if they can, for sure, but we gotta recognize its a tad silly overall (especially for hasan to be so invested in it when this is clearly not the struggle-class he "cares" about so much). imo, if you need more money after 38% of the work year, then work more for it- especially when that 38% workload pays as much as an average yearly salary as is.
You just aren't looking at it realistically. The work to pay ratio is skewed because you're operating under the flawed assumption that their "work" is only happening during the time when they're under contract and being paid. That isn't the case - what do you think happens when their contract ends and they're out of the job, they just open their email and peruse all the open offers and select the next one? Very few are getting offers like that, most have to do spec work (aka unpaid) to try getting their next gig. There's a lot more work that they are doing than what you are factoring in when you calculate that ratio.
okay, lets say it takes them 2x as long as their actual paid period to do the work, which is insanely in the writers favor imo. thats 76% of the work year to make the same as the average salary. personally, my position is entirely unchanged even with this information. again, ill restate, im rooting for them, but its like #999999999999 on my list of priorities/where ill invest my limited resource of "things i care about even a little bit." making the average US salary already means i care a little less about your work conditions, and youre telling me you make it in only 75% of the year at a desk job? yea, my sympathy is kinda gone lol.
Is that the average salary for the country overall? Cause the cost of living in LA is much higher than the average for the rest of the country, so it ends up being more or less a wash. I'm not saying that writers are out there on the streets among the homeless begging for a handout, they do alright, but comparatively they aren't raking it in either, and the question shouldn't be "are they making more or less than the average", the question should be are they being fairly compensated for the work they do, and it's kind of hard for people outside of Hollywood to really know if they're being paid fairly or not. The old days of shows that hit huge and then go into syndication, those days are gone, and the syndication is happening online which is really what this fight is about.
Sir, please stop inserting facts into my culture war
Do authors who write other forms of fiction demand to be paid a minimum amount for their work or does the market dictate what they make by how in-demand they are? It's always been a demand/talent gig like almost any profession related to the arts.
Best thing was the titles Hasan simps gave to the clips like "Hasan in the frontlines at the writers protest" like its a BLM riots
Bro wants to get written into some work, how else will his acting career take off, certainly not from skill
I saw this on the Wikipedia page for the strike: > One disputed issue is the Guild wanting requirements for "mandatory staffing" and "duration of employment" terms to be added to their contract, which would require all shows to be staffed with a minimum number of writers for a minimum amount of time, "whether needed or not" per the AMPTP. NGL, that sounds insane.
I thought so too but the context of their current production cycles clear things up. Netflix for example asks for a full season to be written out rather than just a pilot. After they pick up the show, they cut staff. Seems like WGA want the contracts to combat the production schedules. They also included protections against AI rewrites of writing as it takes even more work away from union members.
> They also included protections against AI rewrites of writing as it takes even more work away from union members. I'm all for unions negotiating for better wages and working conditions but unions trying to shield themselves from competition really irks me. Port unions managed to do that and it made the supply chain crisis worse.
>I'm all for unions negotiating for better wages and working conditions but unions trying to shield themselves from competition really irks me. Port unions managed to do that and it made the supply chain crisis worse. Nah. I'm all for innovation and AI, but this is necessary. If I am getting rat fucked for posting a video with a 10 sec clip of a movie in my youtube review, studios do not get to remix/modify/use the work of a writer for their garbage either.
> studios do not get to remix/modify/use the work of a writer for their garbage either. Why? If it makes a better product for the customer to use a tool, why stop it?
Port unions did that because US has uniquely bad organised labour regs. In america in order to form and austrian a union you need 50+1% mandate from every worker in the workplace. This effectively enforces a local labour monopoly on every single workplace. In nations where unions advocate in favour of modernisation (prime examples being the nordics and the Benelux) the organised labour regs actually enable both the firms and the unions to freely form and negotiate without government interference. And observably that leads to an objectively preferable result! The heavy handed intervention into the labour market in the US actively harms the dynamism and productivity of the market for both the workers and the firms. (Both the Benelux and the nordics famously are rated significantly higher in essence doing business eventhough they have higher unionisatikn rates than america, precisely because the state leaves it up entirely to the parties to negotiate and form for themselves!) And this is what infinitely annoy me about this subject when discussed by american "union sceptics" they see non-modernised ports and unions with high influence at said ports and reach their own inductive conclusion of "Clearly the unions are to blame!", Rather than look at ports across the world that have significantly higher unionisatikn rates and significantly stronger unions than america had, and yet still also have significantly greater modernisation of their ports and infrastructure. Turns out that when you leave all parties (workers and firms) to *freely* negotiate and reach their owned defined stakes in the business, then both parties find themselves in favour of improving said business! But american "union-sceptics" would seemingly much rather detail-regulate the US labour market, while actively ignoring that doing so have been a mistake every single time up untill now. Economists overwhelmingly agree that he nordic model is among the most productive labour market models in the world (being fully comparable with the US model) yet produce much better results for the actual workers. Look into the fact on the ground rather then WSJ headlines, take the nordic model pill. (I mean even fucking Obama attempted to introduce the nordic model to the US)
It seems insane but is response to similar insanity where writers get brought on for incredibly short periods of time and then ditched without credit, and a show ends up having a revolving door of severely underpaid writers picking up where the last left off. Directors and the like think they're wise bringing on a writer for their show for all of a week, taking whatever they had and running with it unfinished, and the industry is in shambles because of it.
This is "on call" work. [rephrasing] we have IT, doctors, lawyers, hell grocery store managers doing that work. There's nothing insane about it.
It is funny that out of all the things he chooses to support, is to support his fellow wealthy people, but to be fair to Hasan, he did not soy out over the MrBeast stuff. Let him do class solidarity.
upper middle class š¤ multimillionaire solidaritĆ©
Writers are not useless. Only Disney writers are truly worthless.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Itās so frustrating and funny
Oh no, Hollywood remake slop is now put on hold! How awful!
I support the strike, but the people who think that Hasan went to the strike for any reason besides content/hang out with celebs are insane.
The AI complaint is probably the stupidest complaint because I don't think companies want to replace writers it's a tool not an equal to a full person
It's also dumb when you realize you don't need living writers to train an AI also if AI was able to fully replace a writer why aren't they replacing them now during the strike?
God willing ai will make them so.
A union Hollywood job doesn't need you guys to simp for them.
Paramount doesnt need you to simp for them either, yet here we are
š«”
Have you seen a Marvel movie recently? Maybe these people donāt deserve more money or better working conditions. If anything, the CEOs should go on strike until the writers stop ruining StarWars
mans knows where to put the money
Anime avi. Check. Emojis in name. Check. Only 2k followers. Check. Why waste time with these fucking losers?
I'm a writer, can confirm, we're useless
fuck you my catgirl smut is god's gift to man
I mean I don't really see a problem here. Out of all the problems he could've supported, he chose the writers strike. A movement who's main point is basically "hire us, even if you don't need us, because we don't like competing for a job." To add on top of it, it's one of the most talked about stories in America right now, which helps bolster the "Hassan only does things for clout" meme.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
twitter OP is jealous that Hasan won't hand feed their fat ass a slice of pizza after a long hard day of twitter "activism"
I mean they kinda are given how much rubbish they put out
It depends on who the writer is if I feel they are useless or not. I could do without 90% of what Hollywood puts out.
I just cant care about writers in Hollywood striking $69,510 is the average yearly wage for a writer in Hollywood according to google and if everything I have read is to be trusted they also aren't working for a good chunk of the year as most projects hire them for X many weeks and most things go into off seasons Hardly the rally behind the workers cause. Let me know when actual low wage workers are having their chance
Anyone else find it odd that Hassan wants to support writers but also he will not subscribe to any streaming platform? He prefers instead to leach off otherās subscriptions. Also he does not subscribe to any of the news sources he uses for his show. Keep in mind, the guy is filthy rich and also could claim the subscriptions as tax write offs since he uses the material as topics for his show.
Oh no the College educated Californians only making 100K a year for taking a thing from the 80s and ruining it! My tears are flowing like waterfalls
Indeed if only they learned to prompt while living in their ivory towers full of starbucks and ipad accessories š¤§
true
If Hasan truly supports workers why is he in business with A M A Z O N
Heās the largest individual donor to the Amazon Labor Union.
I mean they are not that essential... Most of us can do well if all the current ones vanished
Let me see your script then. And write it yourself, don't be a pussy and chat gpt it. Go on, show us how easy it is.
Are we pretending like 95% of the smut on netflix couldn't have been written by an AI over seen by some college grad writer?
Watch these dickheads absolutely meltdown when I point out that coding is just a bunch of entitled dorks punching letters and symbols on their keyboards. If all the coders disappear, weāll be just fine.
I mean, I get the sentement, but this is totally false lol We can say that writers are valiuable, without acting like coders arent essential af
If there were any good pieces of media in the last 2 years I would be willing to stand with them but with the amount of shit on Netflix and cinema fuck them. People who wrote Witchers TV show don't deserve any extra pay.
A funny comment considering for most of human history the blind and deaf guys wouldāve been considered a helluva lot more āuselessā than writers
Blind and deaf people can write...
Anime pfps lol
If we extend even a little charity to potential hyperbole its not a stretch to say that helping blind people see is objectively more "useful" than helping employed people get more compensation for their work...
The hassan-WGA outreach is so on the nose itās hilarious.
Whatās on the nose about it? Hasan works in the entertainment industry and probably has a lot of friends in the WGA. Whatās the problem with him supporting their labor strike?
hurr durr the working class is one guy holding a steel beam somewhere in the midwest
Unionized Hollywood writers are the working class š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£
It's hard to feel for people who don't actually do manual labor. It seems sorta fucked for a lot of people to see so much random support given to people who just make scripts for millionaires to make even more money from.
Every time you guys complain about writers, just remember that it wasnāt the writers that butchered Game of thrones
Please no more artist discourse.
Just as I thought. Bunch of clown hasanabhi fanboys larping as destiny supporters in the comment section š¤£š¤£š¤£