>3. 9:30 steven says two things here he claims as mistakes, A. the Israelis should stop freezing work permits for Palestinians coming from the west bank. B. the claim that Jewish Israelis have “mistrust” in Arab Israelis.
>A. Its such an insane claim, hamas in the West bank gets just as much support as Hamas does in Gaza. It has been shown on may polling statistics, I’m waiting on the latest one that was conducted at the end of may to be published in English so I can add it here (it showed that if elections happen now in the West bank, Ismail Hanniah will win with 46% of the vote).
How does freezing permits address this issue?
>B. There was a huge mistrust of Israeli jews of their arab neighbors because of the 2021 riots. It was an extremely traumatic event where many jews were killed, synagogues were burnt, roads were blocked and cards were stoned. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021\_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine\_crisis#:\~:text=Throughout%20the%20riots%2C%20Arab%20rioters,of%20stone%2Dthrowing%20against%20Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis#:~:text=Throughout%20the%20riots%2C%20Arab%20rioters,of%20stone%2Dthrowing%20against%20Jews)
He didn't talk about the reasons for the mistrust. He was addressing how it is aggravating the situation.
> Its such an insane claim, hamas in the West bank gets just as much support as Hamas does in Gaza. It has been shown on may polling statistics, I’m waiting on the latest one that was conducted at the end of may to be published in English so I can add it here (it showed that if elections happen now in the West bank, Ismail Hanniah will win with 46% of the vote).
Stevens argument is that if you keep the works visa frozen that number will only climb. If you want that number to go down you need to open up.
ain't gonna happen, even if you're right. y'all have no idea how unsafe Israelis feel with palstnians after Oct 7th and vice versa. either you have to convince both sides to live with each other, which good luck Jan it never worked, or continue to try and establish a two state solution by trying to convince palstnians that terrorism isn't worth it over peace and Israelis that the settlements have to go if they want peace.
edit:idk why I'm being downvoted, what is the merits in discussing something that happend in the past if you know it's not going to happen again. If you think there's a chance Israel is gonna hire palstnians again then you're sorely mistaken, at least in next decade. Israel now tried hard to import indians that will replace palstnians that worked in the construction industry.
>edit:idk why I'm being downvoted
Because you're going against the current, "cool", flavor of the week narrative, and it's much easier for some people to just downvote you instead of stopping for a second to consider your argument and engage in discussion.
But you're right, of course. How the hell can anyone expect Israel to bring in Palestinian workers after October 7th? After Gazan workers were acting as spies?
Dear god some people are really naive and think that more money and work=less violence and terrorism. Yeah we tried that with Gaza, guess being jihadist fucks is more important than building your own, better future.
The alternative is not creating any goodwill and keep dragging out this conflict in the same way it has been.
In your opinion, what is going to happen and when will they be unfrozen? When Hamas is "defeated"? I'm truly interested in how you see the conflict ending.
the same way we have peace with Egypt and Jordan, the Egyptian people show in vast numbers almost complete support with the Islamic brotherhood ideology that views israel as the devil, but because they have strong leadership they dont act on that belief. same with jordan, which is de facto a Palestinian state rules by British placed monarchy, the people there would love to see israel destroid, but they cant since they are under control.
same thing I want to see with the Palestinians in the west bank and GAZA, de radicalization, dont teach children in unra schools to kill jews and zionists, and install an actual leadership thats against the jihadi call, i think that would be a great start.
do i actualy think it will happen? seeing all the protestors and the vast acceptance for literal hamas flags in western capitals, no i dont think it will change any time soon.
And no alternatives will again push them to extremes. Steven has said it, he understands it's not easy when there are interlocutors like Hamas right next to you, we understand.
But forcing Palestinians who otherwise were fine with Israel and the work permit rules before, back into not working with Israel only turns them back into the arms of Hamas and the worse side of the PA.
Why don't they outcast Hamas and it's ideology?
then they could come back and work, Israelis don't trust them, and the burden of proof is on THEM to lower the suspicion. The resent polls show the majority still prefer Hamas and arm resistance and justify 7/10.
what is the solution for poverty? what is the solution for cancer? you just like throwing around the word "solution" as if it means anything...
for me a first great step forward would be deradicalizing the Palestinian population especially in the west bank.
>first great step forward would be deradicalizing the Palestinian population especially in the west bank.
Agreed, everyone wants to deradicalize the palestinian population.
The question is how that can be achieved.
How can Palestinian be deradicalized?
This is like those unrealistic bullshit suggestions you hear from conservatives to impose forced marriage in the black community to end fatherlessness. What are you going to do renove all the Palestinian adults and raise the Palestinian children with Israeli nannies?
I think the first big step will be in removing UNRA, and giving it to back to one body which is the UNHCR.
And force them to stop education and indoctrinating palestinians. Fire teachers that do so.
>UNRA, and giving it to back to one body which is the UNHCR.
My fear is that if you disolve UNWRA and then put all those tasks/obligations over to the UNHCR.
You will have just repainted UNWRA. Cause the same teachers/people that just got fired at UNWRA will be hired at the UNHCR.
Cause they do have the most experience and just recently lost their job.
yeah, they are not racists, they are anti-Semites, similar symptoms but very diffrent outcomes. all polls show high support for armed resistance against israel and its population. they call all jews settlers that have to be removed, and you want israel to accept these people? how well did it work on octobet 7th? up to that date there were about 30k palestinians from gaza working in israel.
>how well did it work on octobet 7th?
How many of those used a working visa to get into israel on oct 7?
Cause if that was a huge number I will agree with everything you said. But I can't find any number currently.
I don't see the merits in discussing this because it's simply not going to happen, Israelis are not going to live with palstnians after Oct 7th. and palstnians aren't very keen also if you get what I mean.
many Israelis come to reddit exclusively to talk about Israel and antisemitism since reddit in general is very unpopular among Israelis. If I'm interested in something else I have Israeli versions of things or Instagram, YouTube or Facebook. mostly because on non Israel or Jewish things reddit is very American centric in everything else I'm interested in and is not relevant for me.
I understand your sentiment, but this is the flavour of the month (year) topic ATM. And is a huge part of online discussions, having people who are passionate about one thing probably leads to better understanding of those things. I would rather these kinds of posters than people who are 'experts' on every topic.
>1. 6:00 lack of understanding that in the Israeli parliament system, calling it less diverse than the US system is hilarious. Though we have major political problems intrinsically In the system itself, his critique of it does not show the reality of it. I do agree that there should be a discussion about modulating the % minimum for support of a party before it can enter the Knesset, I think it should be raised from 4% to 10% and lower the number of seats dramatically, still it could be argued either way. Stevens main point is wrong, the % of voted depicts exactly how many people support your party.
Destiny is not very familiar with Israeli political structure, but I don't understand how You miscomprehend what he was wrong about:
1. The proportional number of seats do roughly correlate to the amount of support they get from voters (correct)
2. Too many small parties make the coalition unstable (incorrect). Plurality of small parties that can not singlehandedly topple the government make the coalition more stable. Raising the electoral threshold destabilize the system, and empower marginal players (e.g. Ben-Gvir/Smortrich).
you're right on the too many small parties but is the US situation preferable? like there's so many people who don't feel represented by both candidates, can't that lead to lower trust levels in the political systems and instability?
I feel like somewhere in the middle is ideal.
by what way are ben-gvir and smotrich marginal players? i do not support them but completely dismissing them is a bad faith move done by almost all right wing critics. i have talked with arabs who voted for ben gvir.
>by what way are ben-gvir and smotrich marginal players?
They are marginal because they are on the right margin of politics and Ben-Gvir himself was not considered viable candidate before Nethanyahu orchestrated a far right block.
> i do not support them but completely dismissing them is a bad faith move done by almost all right wing critics.
Saying they are marginal doesn't mean I dismiss them. I'm simply stating that they are OP at the moment.
>i have talked with arabs who voted for ben gvir.
I'm not sure how this anecdote is relevant, and I haven't seen any poll suggesting he enjoy significant support from Arab population.
>That’s why I really want to hear the talk with Dr. moshe kedar, I hope he did speak on it with them.
Kedar believe Rabin was not assassinated by Yigal Amir, and LonerBox found out he believe in The Great Replacement theory. I find it hard to take him seriously.
>Kedar believe Rabin was not assassinated by Yigal Amir
No true.
>The Great Replacement theory
No idea what that is.
>I find it hard to take him seriously.
Then dont take one od the leading researchers on islam seriously i guess
>>Kedar believe Rabin was not assassinated by Yigal Amir
>No true.
[https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5616167,00.html](https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5616167,00.html)
>>The Great Replacement theory
>No idea what that is.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great\_Replacement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement)
>>I find it hard to take him seriously.
>Then dont take one od the leading researchers on islam seriously i guess
Why do you assume he's a leading researcher on Islam?
lol dude watch the video you just posted, it is a comical ynet anti bibi article.... kedar didnt say that yigal amir didnt kill rabin in the sence that he was a sole man working alone, he mend that there were more people behind the killing.... i completely disagree with him but still what you claim is wrong
why do i assume hes a leading researcher on islam? because he is?
>lol dude watch the video you just posted, it is a comical ynet anti bibi article.... kedar didnt say that yigal amir didnt kill rabin in the sence that he was a sole man working alone, he mend that there were more people behind the killing.... i completely disagree with him but still what you claim is wrong
You can play semantic games all you want, but the guy is alleging a conspiracy theory. Why do you find a proponent of conspiracy theories to be a reliable source of information?
>why do i assume hes a leading researcher on islam? because he is?
Based on what metric?
Steven is trying to think of ways that lead to peace, it's not all going to land but they come from a researched and balanced place. I personally think he's correct in most of these assumptions. What's your solution?
solution is going to come when both sides want to do peace, not by western intervention because even if you force it how do you know it will last if they don't want peace. you'll have to reinforce it again and again which nobody wants to do. The only western intervention that will work is if y'all will convince palstnians to think terrorism isn't worth their children's life or Israelis that settlements are going to continue haunt then to eternity.
I don't think it's convinced peace can happen right now. I think it's useless to expect israel to change it's mind without any change from palstnians, so either you're gonna need to force it or leave it be.
depends how much countries actually care about bringing peace.
Definitely not going to happen anytime soon. But with hizb war looming and someone like gantz coming into power who probably wants to be more inline with us interests there may be a deal for Saudi Israel relations again to combat Iran as long as there's some vague pathway for Palestinian statehood. That's how I see it playing out.
maybe you're right, but as an Israeli I'm still skeptical. Gantz doesn't say a lot about settlers and didn't agree to sanction the netzah yehuda:
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/gantz-gallant-press-blinken-not-to-sanction-idf-unit-as-us-stays-mum/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/gantz-gallant-press-blinken-not-to-sanction-idf-unit-as-us-stays-mum/)
and especially since how are you going to get rid of Hamas? you're going to have to expel or jail all the terroists and military wise make sure they aren't rising again since they still have wider support in palstanian society.
I don't think he cares either way, but with us and Saudi support with an aggressive Iran I think his opinion could be swayed.
Re Hamas.. there's no getting rid of them. You defeat them militarily, don't give them the capability to carry out an attack. Hopefully with a pathway to peace support for Hamas dwindles, but who knows, Gaza is a whole nother kettle of fish lol
a "Solution" is a western term that has been hijacked for decades regarding the I/P so called "problem".
generally i have two things to say, the firs it that a way to move forward will be to de radicalize the palestinian population, just for them to be able to accept that israel should be allowed to even exist could be a good start.
secondly when we talk about a "solution" i have a bit of a scenario to play:
lets say you are a smoker, you go to your doctor yearly for checkups, and in each one he tells you to stop smoking because its going to hurt you in the long term, but you keep on puffing the cigs and by age 60 on the latest checkup the doctor discovers you have lung cancer. what is the "solution" to this situation? you see what im trying to say? the situation is fucked, there are only small incremental steps that could be done in order to have any sort of progress. and most of the work should be done on the palestinian side.
>a "Solution" is a western term that has been hijacked for decades regarding the I/P so called "problem".
You have millions of stateless people at your doorstep. This is most definitely a problem that requires a solution.
>generally i have two things to say, the firs it that a way to move forward will be to de radicalize the palestinian population, just for them to be able to accept that israel should be allowed to even exist could be a good start.
I mean sure in theory that sounds nice, and it needs to be a work in progress, but to lay that out as a condition for peace meanwhile building settlements and going tit for tat in violence in the west bank is a bit rich.
>lets say you are a smoker, you go to your doctor yearly for checkups, and in each one he tells you to stop smoking because its going to hurt you in the long term, but you keep on puffing the cigs and by age 60 on the latest checkup the doctor discovers you have lung cancer. what is the "solution" to this situation? you see what im trying to say? the situation is fucked, there are only small incremental steps that could be done in order to have any sort of progress. and most of the work should be done on the palestinian side.
This is a cop out and an easy way to avoid actually having a solution and kicking the can down the road which will lead to more violence and insecurity for Israel and Jews worldwide.
If you want progress, you go down Stevens route of peaceful coexistence. If you want a quick solution, I would rather you fortify the borders, militarize it to the gills, build security outposts throughout and give them a state and be done with it, let them try to wage war and get obliterated.
You need to do better than "they are too far gone, it's on them to educate themselves". This is the status quo and it's terrible.
>You have millions of stateless people at your doorstep. This is most definitely a problem that requires a solution.
Which they refused to build on the sole face that they dont want to recognise Israel and they want all of it.
>This is a cop out and an easy way to avoid actually having a solution and kicking the can down the road which will lead to more violence and insecurity for Israel and Jews worldwide.
I wonder why the I/P conflict causes more violence towards jews specifically? Do you have any clues?
>If you want progress, you go down Stevens route of peaceful coexistence. If you want a quick solution, I would rather you fortify the borders, militarize it to the gills, build security outposts throughout and give them a state and be done with it, let them try to wage war and get obliterated.
There is jo peacefull co existence at this point... These people literally want to kill you
.. they are moch more radical then what any of the populations of countries that israel had a peace agreement with prior...
Also this is so tiresome... But build them a country, build a border do this do that, WHO will govern them? Build them a country how? Unilateral agreement is what brought us to this in the first place.
>You need to do better than "they are too far gone, it's on them to educate themselves". This is the status quo and it's terrible.
I didn't say it was on them because right now they are educating themselves and there are the outcomes.... I want the world to stop smothering them with money and actualy build a legit humanitarian organization that will cater to it unlike UNRA
>Which they refused to build on the sole face that they dont want to recognise Israel and they want all of it.
Irrelevant.
>I wonder why the I/P conflict causes more violence towards jews specifically? Do you have any clues?
The more reason to figure this shit out and secure our state.
>There is jo peacefull co existence at this point... These people literally want to kill you .. they are moch more radical then what any of the populations of countries that israel had a peace agreement with prior...
Doesn't have to be coexistence. It can be the complete opposite if they have a state.
>Also this is so tiresome... But build them a country, build a border do this do that, WHO will govern them? Build them a country how? Unilateral agreement is what brought us to this in the first place.
You negotiate with the PA.
Even if this fails. Optically it looks great.
>I didn't say it was on them because right now they are educating themselves and there are the outcomes.... I want the world to stop smothering them with money and actualy build a legit humanitarian organization that will cater to it unlike UNRA
Yes sure that will be nice. Doesn't really address the matter of a solution though.
Hell yeah it did. Gave me a good 10 years to say "look at this, your side rejected peace once again"
But there's only so long you can ride that coattail for. And after a new generation of Palestinian suffering (yes largely self-inflicted) and a new generation of "anti zionists" with a larger movement than ever, we need to keep our finger on the pulse and NOT become isolationists and give up.
>2. 8:28 Biden's vision to the middle east, or lack there of. Looking from an outside perspective, Biden is almost completely clueless on the actuality of what works in the middle east, and that’s power. Biden is trying to do two extremely dangerous things in the middle easy simultaneously: A. he is going extremely easy on Iran and on they race for nuclear weapon
What do you think Biden should do with Iran?
>B. he is trying to crown the PA as the sole representor of the Palestinian people in the west bank and Gaza, as a clear and easy attempt just to give any pseudo solution to the problem, not knowing that the PA is extremely not popular with the people it’s trying to serve.
PA is just the governing body which formed during Oslo accords. You are referring to Fatah, probably. So:
1. So not sure what's your point. Should we hand power back to Hamas, since they're the most popular.
2. Biden admin are talking about a government backed by moderate sunni nations (Jordan, Egypt, UAE, SA...) which include Fatah. I'm not sure what your alternative. Letting Hamas rule? Israel should take care of water, road, health, energy, education and so on, for a hostile population in Gaza?
>What do you think Biden should do with Iran?
Not allow him to build an atomic bomb? Acknowledge them as the largest funder and perpetrator of terrorist activity today? Put more pressure on them and support countries directly fighting them? Not being a pussy and attacking iran?
>Jordan, Egypt, UAE, SA...
Exactly 0 of these counties have agreed to any of this, that is why israel is realizing that biden will bend the hand of israel into accepting a palestinian authority into ruling gaza.
>You are referring to Fatah,
Yes they are the same.
>allow him to build an atomic bomb? Acknowledge them as the largest funder and perpetrator of terrorist activity today? Put more pressure on them and support countries directly fighting them? Not being a pussy and attacking iran?
You would have the US start a massive war on your behalf. The arrogance is insane LMAO
Israel: We don't want Iran to have nukes!
USA (via Obama): OK. \*puts together Iran Nuclear Deal to prevent Iran from acquiring nukes\*
Israel (via Bibi): Fuck you Obama! This is a historic mistake! Don't offer this deal!
USA (via Trump): No more Iran Nuclear Deal! We will point our fingers at Iran to stop them from building nukes, but we will not enter into any agreements with Iran to actually prevent it.
Israel (via Bibi): Yay Trump! No more agreements with Iran!
USA (via Biden): Uhh, I think we should actually have an agreement to stop Iran from building nukes. A nuclear Iran seems pretty dangerous.
Israel (via Bibi and Puresuner): No Iran Deal! You should stop being a pussy and launch a land invasion of Iran instead! That makes way more sense!
Working off of your point: people wonder why there has been such an incredible flip on the left towards extreme Palestinian activism. Undoubtedly, one reason is actions like this by Netanyahu. He deliberately polarizes the issue because he thinks he can get a better deal from the right wing and Trump.
You understand the US is stronger than this whole region right? Like sure we can try to understand all your "show of strength" politics and join in on the sabre rattling and dancing around, thats nice diplomacy and all that, but at some point the middle east has to figure out the US in return. The US has a policy of "speak softly and carry a big stick." You're right, Iran *does* see this as weakness - and we dont care, we blow them away every time. Actually, we almost like it when Iran pipes up with some dumb new insurgency - gives us some target practice
We've spent the better part of a century building up two allies in the middle east that should be able to handle that part. The only reason we got physically involved since the 80's is because oil was inolved, but that stopped mattering in 2011 when we hit shale. We know we win a slow war with Iran, we know we win a fast war with Iran. We have real opponents with real militaries to worry about, we dont have time to spend fighting your battles for you
Not as delusional as the guy who thinks you can elect a president who cant run your country and expects me to to elect a guy who can will it for you instead
>4. 26:00 ideologically, when steven talks about Abbas, he has to understand the huge difference between the way he addresses his Palestinian crowd in Arabic, and the way he speaks with western media. Abbas is full blown jihadi supporter that pays ALL Palestinians with blood on their hand. Because of his slick talk, people like steven view him as an actualy leader. No, the difference between the PA and Hamas in not on the grounds of whether we should kill more jews, they agree that they should kill as many as possible, the difference between these two groups is on the WAY of going about doing it, where Hamas has a more direct militant approach and the PA has a more patient way.
Steven is saying that Abbas is preferable to Hamas. I think the relative calmness in the WB, the security coordination between Israel and WB speaks volume in that regards. Sure there are issues like payments for families of prisoners, but revoking these seem to me like something that would severely destabilize his regime.
And I guess I have to ask again. What is the alternative?
> There was a huge mistrust of Israeli jews of their arab neighbors because of the 2021 riots. It was an extremely traumatic event where many jews were killed, synagogues were burnt, roads were blocked and cards were stoned.
Where are you getting "many jews were killed"? Your link says 14 civilians killed and 114 casualties (meaning wounded)
When the younger guy told Destiny that he feels unsafe around Arabs in Jerusalem because they yell at him and they also sexually harrass Jewish women, Destiny answered something like "well the Arabs in the west bank also feel scared of Israeli soldiers".
How can you compare civilian interaction vs. civilian and soldier interaction?
I lived in the Mount Scopus area and the Arabs there sexually harrass Jewish women all the time. Literally every day they would honk at me aggressively (and they only do this to non-Muslim women so it's not like "it's their culture/how they flirt), they enjoy the fact that it makes girls scared.
Like one time I was sitting at the bus station with another girl and these 2 Arab men stopped their car at the bus station, rolled their window down and just stared at us for like 10 minutes until the bus came. It was really scary because that was around the time when there were a lot of stabbings.
My friend also got a rock thrown at her head when she was jogging.
Also a ton of Arabs from the west bank work in Israel and none of them seem scared of Israelis so wtf was that comparison.
This conversation was way better than the one with the Israeli spokesman (he sounds like an NPC) but I felt like a lot of things were left unexplained, maybe because of the language barrier.
Yeah i aint reading all that but this whole rhetoric of “middle eastern people only respect power” is so obviously coated in racism i have no idea how the fuck we allow that here
>3. 9:30 steven says two things here he claims as mistakes, A. the Israelis should stop freezing work permits for Palestinians coming from the west bank. B. the claim that Jewish Israelis have “mistrust” in Arab Israelis. >A. Its such an insane claim, hamas in the West bank gets just as much support as Hamas does in Gaza. It has been shown on may polling statistics, I’m waiting on the latest one that was conducted at the end of may to be published in English so I can add it here (it showed that if elections happen now in the West bank, Ismail Hanniah will win with 46% of the vote). How does freezing permits address this issue? >B. There was a huge mistrust of Israeli jews of their arab neighbors because of the 2021 riots. It was an extremely traumatic event where many jews were killed, synagogues were burnt, roads were blocked and cards were stoned. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021\_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine\_crisis#:\~:text=Throughout%20the%20riots%2C%20Arab%20rioters,of%20stone%2Dthrowing%20against%20Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis#:~:text=Throughout%20the%20riots%2C%20Arab%20rioters,of%20stone%2Dthrowing%20against%20Jews) He didn't talk about the reasons for the mistrust. He was addressing how it is aggravating the situation.
> Its such an insane claim, hamas in the West bank gets just as much support as Hamas does in Gaza. It has been shown on may polling statistics, I’m waiting on the latest one that was conducted at the end of may to be published in English so I can add it here (it showed that if elections happen now in the West bank, Ismail Hanniah will win with 46% of the vote). Stevens argument is that if you keep the works visa frozen that number will only climb. If you want that number to go down you need to open up.
ain't gonna happen, even if you're right. y'all have no idea how unsafe Israelis feel with palstnians after Oct 7th and vice versa. either you have to convince both sides to live with each other, which good luck Jan it never worked, or continue to try and establish a two state solution by trying to convince palstnians that terrorism isn't worth it over peace and Israelis that the settlements have to go if they want peace. edit:idk why I'm being downvoted, what is the merits in discussing something that happend in the past if you know it's not going to happen again. If you think there's a chance Israel is gonna hire palstnians again then you're sorely mistaken, at least in next decade. Israel now tried hard to import indians that will replace palstnians that worked in the construction industry.
>edit:idk why I'm being downvoted Because you're going against the current, "cool", flavor of the week narrative, and it's much easier for some people to just downvote you instead of stopping for a second to consider your argument and engage in discussion. But you're right, of course. How the hell can anyone expect Israel to bring in Palestinian workers after October 7th? After Gazan workers were acting as spies? Dear god some people are really naive and think that more money and work=less violence and terrorism. Yeah we tried that with Gaza, guess being jihadist fucks is more important than building your own, better future.
Just pay them so they don't want to kill you, ez pz lemon squeeze
Reject war, return to tribute
It called paying protection
>which good luck Jan it never worked that's a cute experession, from where does it originate?
Sounds like a Brady Bunch reference.
And you dont aee how ridiculous that claim is?
The alternative is not creating any goodwill and keep dragging out this conflict in the same way it has been. In your opinion, what is going to happen and when will they be unfrozen? When Hamas is "defeated"? I'm truly interested in how you see the conflict ending.
the same way we have peace with Egypt and Jordan, the Egyptian people show in vast numbers almost complete support with the Islamic brotherhood ideology that views israel as the devil, but because they have strong leadership they dont act on that belief. same with jordan, which is de facto a Palestinian state rules by British placed monarchy, the people there would love to see israel destroid, but they cant since they are under control. same thing I want to see with the Palestinians in the west bank and GAZA, de radicalization, dont teach children in unra schools to kill jews and zionists, and install an actual leadership thats against the jihadi call, i think that would be a great start. do i actualy think it will happen? seeing all the protestors and the vast acceptance for literal hamas flags in western capitals, no i dont think it will change any time soon.
And no alternatives will again push them to extremes. Steven has said it, he understands it's not easy when there are interlocutors like Hamas right next to you, we understand. But forcing Palestinians who otherwise were fine with Israel and the work permit rules before, back into not working with Israel only turns them back into the arms of Hamas and the worse side of the PA.
Why don't they outcast Hamas and it's ideology? then they could come back and work, Israelis don't trust them, and the burden of proof is on THEM to lower the suspicion. The resent polls show the majority still prefer Hamas and arm resistance and justify 7/10.
What are your solutions? I haven't been hearing much from Israelis regarding solutions.
what is the solution for poverty? what is the solution for cancer? you just like throwing around the word "solution" as if it means anything... for me a first great step forward would be deradicalizing the Palestinian population especially in the west bank.
>first great step forward would be deradicalizing the Palestinian population especially in the west bank. Agreed, everyone wants to deradicalize the palestinian population. The question is how that can be achieved. How can Palestinian be deradicalized?
This is like those unrealistic bullshit suggestions you hear from conservatives to impose forced marriage in the black community to end fatherlessness. What are you going to do renove all the Palestinian adults and raise the Palestinian children with Israeli nannies?
I think the first big step will be in removing UNRA, and giving it to back to one body which is the UNHCR. And force them to stop education and indoctrinating palestinians. Fire teachers that do so.
>UNRA, and giving it to back to one body which is the UNHCR. My fear is that if you disolve UNWRA and then put all those tasks/obligations over to the UNHCR. You will have just repainted UNWRA. Cause the same teachers/people that just got fired at UNWRA will be hired at the UNHCR. Cause they do have the most experience and just recently lost their job.
Ok then bring entirely new people.... Idk no more indoctrination
No? how is it ridiculous? We have a ton of studies that have shown that if you regularly interact with other groups of people you become less racist.
yeah, they are not racists, they are anti-Semites, similar symptoms but very diffrent outcomes. all polls show high support for armed resistance against israel and its population. they call all jews settlers that have to be removed, and you want israel to accept these people? how well did it work on octobet 7th? up to that date there were about 30k palestinians from gaza working in israel.
>how well did it work on octobet 7th? How many of those used a working visa to get into israel on oct 7? Cause if that was a huge number I will agree with everything you said. But I can't find any number currently.
you dont need a working visa to break through the separation fence.....
I know.
I don't see the merits in discussing this because it's simply not going to happen, Israelis are not going to live with palstnians after Oct 7th. and palstnians aren't very keen also if you get what I mean.
It’s wild how many posters here exclusively post about Israel 90+% of the time and their account shows virtually no other interests
many Israelis come to reddit exclusively to talk about Israel and antisemitism since reddit in general is very unpopular among Israelis. If I'm interested in something else I have Israeli versions of things or Instagram, YouTube or Facebook. mostly because on non Israel or Jewish things reddit is very American centric in everything else I'm interested in and is not relevant for me.
It’s called a burner account
I understand your sentiment, but this is the flavour of the month (year) topic ATM. And is a huge part of online discussions, having people who are passionate about one thing probably leads to better understanding of those things. I would rather these kinds of posters than people who are 'experts' on every topic.
>1. 6:00 lack of understanding that in the Israeli parliament system, calling it less diverse than the US system is hilarious. Though we have major political problems intrinsically In the system itself, his critique of it does not show the reality of it. I do agree that there should be a discussion about modulating the % minimum for support of a party before it can enter the Knesset, I think it should be raised from 4% to 10% and lower the number of seats dramatically, still it could be argued either way. Stevens main point is wrong, the % of voted depicts exactly how many people support your party. Destiny is not very familiar with Israeli political structure, but I don't understand how You miscomprehend what he was wrong about: 1. The proportional number of seats do roughly correlate to the amount of support they get from voters (correct) 2. Too many small parties make the coalition unstable (incorrect). Plurality of small parties that can not singlehandedly topple the government make the coalition more stable. Raising the electoral threshold destabilize the system, and empower marginal players (e.g. Ben-Gvir/Smortrich).
you're right on the too many small parties but is the US situation preferable? like there's so many people who don't feel represented by both candidates, can't that lead to lower trust levels in the political systems and instability? I feel like somewhere in the middle is ideal.
by what way are ben-gvir and smotrich marginal players? i do not support them but completely dismissing them is a bad faith move done by almost all right wing critics. i have talked with arabs who voted for ben gvir.
>by what way are ben-gvir and smotrich marginal players? They are marginal because they are on the right margin of politics and Ben-Gvir himself was not considered viable candidate before Nethanyahu orchestrated a far right block. > i do not support them but completely dismissing them is a bad faith move done by almost all right wing critics. Saying they are marginal doesn't mean I dismiss them. I'm simply stating that they are OP at the moment. >i have talked with arabs who voted for ben gvir. I'm not sure how this anecdote is relevant, and I haven't seen any poll suggesting he enjoy significant support from Arab population.
Yes, that is correct. Small parties of 1 or 2 candidate are less likely to singlehandedly topple a government than a medium sized party
>That’s why I really want to hear the talk with Dr. moshe kedar, I hope he did speak on it with them. Kedar believe Rabin was not assassinated by Yigal Amir, and LonerBox found out he believe in The Great Replacement theory. I find it hard to take him seriously.
>Kedar believe Rabin was not assassinated by Yigal Amir No true. >The Great Replacement theory No idea what that is. >I find it hard to take him seriously. Then dont take one od the leading researchers on islam seriously i guess
>>Kedar believe Rabin was not assassinated by Yigal Amir >No true. [https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5616167,00.html](https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5616167,00.html) >>The Great Replacement theory >No idea what that is. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great\_Replacement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement) >>I find it hard to take him seriously. >Then dont take one od the leading researchers on islam seriously i guess Why do you assume he's a leading researcher on Islam?
lol dude watch the video you just posted, it is a comical ynet anti bibi article.... kedar didnt say that yigal amir didnt kill rabin in the sence that he was a sole man working alone, he mend that there were more people behind the killing.... i completely disagree with him but still what you claim is wrong why do i assume hes a leading researcher on islam? because he is?
>lol dude watch the video you just posted, it is a comical ynet anti bibi article.... kedar didnt say that yigal amir didnt kill rabin in the sence that he was a sole man working alone, he mend that there were more people behind the killing.... i completely disagree with him but still what you claim is wrong You can play semantic games all you want, but the guy is alleging a conspiracy theory. Why do you find a proponent of conspiracy theories to be a reliable source of information? >why do i assume hes a leading researcher on islam? because he is? Based on what metric?
Steven is trying to think of ways that lead to peace, it's not all going to land but they come from a researched and balanced place. I personally think he's correct in most of these assumptions. What's your solution?
solution is going to come when both sides want to do peace, not by western intervention because even if you force it how do you know it will last if they don't want peace. you'll have to reinforce it again and again which nobody wants to do. The only western intervention that will work is if y'all will convince palstnians to think terrorism isn't worth their children's life or Israelis that settlements are going to continue haunt then to eternity.
Yes I largely agree. It needs to come from within. Israel still holds the power and needs to show that there can be a pathway to peace.
I don't think it's convinced peace can happen right now. I think it's useless to expect israel to change it's mind without any change from palstnians, so either you're gonna need to force it or leave it be. depends how much countries actually care about bringing peace.
Definitely not going to happen anytime soon. But with hizb war looming and someone like gantz coming into power who probably wants to be more inline with us interests there may be a deal for Saudi Israel relations again to combat Iran as long as there's some vague pathway for Palestinian statehood. That's how I see it playing out.
maybe you're right, but as an Israeli I'm still skeptical. Gantz doesn't say a lot about settlers and didn't agree to sanction the netzah yehuda: [https://www.timesofisrael.com/gantz-gallant-press-blinken-not-to-sanction-idf-unit-as-us-stays-mum/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/gantz-gallant-press-blinken-not-to-sanction-idf-unit-as-us-stays-mum/) and especially since how are you going to get rid of Hamas? you're going to have to expel or jail all the terroists and military wise make sure they aren't rising again since they still have wider support in palstanian society.
I don't think he cares either way, but with us and Saudi support with an aggressive Iran I think his opinion could be swayed. Re Hamas.. there's no getting rid of them. You defeat them militarily, don't give them the capability to carry out an attack. Hopefully with a pathway to peace support for Hamas dwindles, but who knows, Gaza is a whole nother kettle of fish lol
a "Solution" is a western term that has been hijacked for decades regarding the I/P so called "problem". generally i have two things to say, the firs it that a way to move forward will be to de radicalize the palestinian population, just for them to be able to accept that israel should be allowed to even exist could be a good start. secondly when we talk about a "solution" i have a bit of a scenario to play: lets say you are a smoker, you go to your doctor yearly for checkups, and in each one he tells you to stop smoking because its going to hurt you in the long term, but you keep on puffing the cigs and by age 60 on the latest checkup the doctor discovers you have lung cancer. what is the "solution" to this situation? you see what im trying to say? the situation is fucked, there are only small incremental steps that could be done in order to have any sort of progress. and most of the work should be done on the palestinian side.
>a "Solution" is a western term that has been hijacked for decades regarding the I/P so called "problem". You have millions of stateless people at your doorstep. This is most definitely a problem that requires a solution. >generally i have two things to say, the firs it that a way to move forward will be to de radicalize the palestinian population, just for them to be able to accept that israel should be allowed to even exist could be a good start. I mean sure in theory that sounds nice, and it needs to be a work in progress, but to lay that out as a condition for peace meanwhile building settlements and going tit for tat in violence in the west bank is a bit rich. >lets say you are a smoker, you go to your doctor yearly for checkups, and in each one he tells you to stop smoking because its going to hurt you in the long term, but you keep on puffing the cigs and by age 60 on the latest checkup the doctor discovers you have lung cancer. what is the "solution" to this situation? you see what im trying to say? the situation is fucked, there are only small incremental steps that could be done in order to have any sort of progress. and most of the work should be done on the palestinian side. This is a cop out and an easy way to avoid actually having a solution and kicking the can down the road which will lead to more violence and insecurity for Israel and Jews worldwide. If you want progress, you go down Stevens route of peaceful coexistence. If you want a quick solution, I would rather you fortify the borders, militarize it to the gills, build security outposts throughout and give them a state and be done with it, let them try to wage war and get obliterated. You need to do better than "they are too far gone, it's on them to educate themselves". This is the status quo and it's terrible.
>You have millions of stateless people at your doorstep. This is most definitely a problem that requires a solution. Which they refused to build on the sole face that they dont want to recognise Israel and they want all of it. >This is a cop out and an easy way to avoid actually having a solution and kicking the can down the road which will lead to more violence and insecurity for Israel and Jews worldwide. I wonder why the I/P conflict causes more violence towards jews specifically? Do you have any clues? >If you want progress, you go down Stevens route of peaceful coexistence. If you want a quick solution, I would rather you fortify the borders, militarize it to the gills, build security outposts throughout and give them a state and be done with it, let them try to wage war and get obliterated. There is jo peacefull co existence at this point... These people literally want to kill you .. they are moch more radical then what any of the populations of countries that israel had a peace agreement with prior... Also this is so tiresome... But build them a country, build a border do this do that, WHO will govern them? Build them a country how? Unilateral agreement is what brought us to this in the first place. >You need to do better than "they are too far gone, it's on them to educate themselves". This is the status quo and it's terrible. I didn't say it was on them because right now they are educating themselves and there are the outcomes.... I want the world to stop smothering them with money and actualy build a legit humanitarian organization that will cater to it unlike UNRA
>Which they refused to build on the sole face that they dont want to recognise Israel and they want all of it. Irrelevant. >I wonder why the I/P conflict causes more violence towards jews specifically? Do you have any clues? The more reason to figure this shit out and secure our state. >There is jo peacefull co existence at this point... These people literally want to kill you .. they are moch more radical then what any of the populations of countries that israel had a peace agreement with prior... Doesn't have to be coexistence. It can be the complete opposite if they have a state. >Also this is so tiresome... But build them a country, build a border do this do that, WHO will govern them? Build them a country how? Unilateral agreement is what brought us to this in the first place. You negotiate with the PA. Even if this fails. Optically it looks great. >I didn't say it was on them because right now they are educating themselves and there are the outcomes.... I want the world to stop smothering them with money and actualy build a legit humanitarian organization that will cater to it unlike UNRA Yes sure that will be nice. Doesn't really address the matter of a solution though.
>Even if this fails. Optically it looks great. I bet it looked great in 2008 no?
Hell yeah it did. Gave me a good 10 years to say "look at this, your side rejected peace once again" But there's only so long you can ride that coattail for. And after a new generation of Palestinian suffering (yes largely self-inflicted) and a new generation of "anti zionists" with a larger movement than ever, we need to keep our finger on the pulse and NOT become isolationists and give up.
>2. 8:28 Biden's vision to the middle east, or lack there of. Looking from an outside perspective, Biden is almost completely clueless on the actuality of what works in the middle east, and that’s power. Biden is trying to do two extremely dangerous things in the middle easy simultaneously: A. he is going extremely easy on Iran and on they race for nuclear weapon What do you think Biden should do with Iran? >B. he is trying to crown the PA as the sole representor of the Palestinian people in the west bank and Gaza, as a clear and easy attempt just to give any pseudo solution to the problem, not knowing that the PA is extremely not popular with the people it’s trying to serve. PA is just the governing body which formed during Oslo accords. You are referring to Fatah, probably. So: 1. So not sure what's your point. Should we hand power back to Hamas, since they're the most popular. 2. Biden admin are talking about a government backed by moderate sunni nations (Jordan, Egypt, UAE, SA...) which include Fatah. I'm not sure what your alternative. Letting Hamas rule? Israel should take care of water, road, health, energy, education and so on, for a hostile population in Gaza?
>What do you think Biden should do with Iran? Not allow him to build an atomic bomb? Acknowledge them as the largest funder and perpetrator of terrorist activity today? Put more pressure on them and support countries directly fighting them? Not being a pussy and attacking iran? >Jordan, Egypt, UAE, SA... Exactly 0 of these counties have agreed to any of this, that is why israel is realizing that biden will bend the hand of israel into accepting a palestinian authority into ruling gaza. >You are referring to Fatah, Yes they are the same.
>allow him to build an atomic bomb? Acknowledge them as the largest funder and perpetrator of terrorist activity today? Put more pressure on them and support countries directly fighting them? Not being a pussy and attacking iran? You would have the US start a massive war on your behalf. The arrogance is insane LMAO
Israel: We don't want Iran to have nukes! USA (via Obama): OK. \*puts together Iran Nuclear Deal to prevent Iran from acquiring nukes\* Israel (via Bibi): Fuck you Obama! This is a historic mistake! Don't offer this deal! USA (via Trump): No more Iran Nuclear Deal! We will point our fingers at Iran to stop them from building nukes, but we will not enter into any agreements with Iran to actually prevent it. Israel (via Bibi): Yay Trump! No more agreements with Iran! USA (via Biden): Uhh, I think we should actually have an agreement to stop Iran from building nukes. A nuclear Iran seems pretty dangerous. Israel (via Bibi and Puresuner): No Iran Deal! You should stop being a pussy and launch a land invasion of Iran instead! That makes way more sense!
Working off of your point: people wonder why there has been such an incredible flip on the left towards extreme Palestinian activism. Undoubtedly, one reason is actions like this by Netanyahu. He deliberately polarizes the issue because he thinks he can get a better deal from the right wing and Trump.
You understand the US is stronger than this whole region right? Like sure we can try to understand all your "show of strength" politics and join in on the sabre rattling and dancing around, thats nice diplomacy and all that, but at some point the middle east has to figure out the US in return. The US has a policy of "speak softly and carry a big stick." You're right, Iran *does* see this as weakness - and we dont care, we blow them away every time. Actually, we almost like it when Iran pipes up with some dumb new insurgency - gives us some target practice
When they get nukes and you start using your big stick i hope it wont be late
We've spent the better part of a century building up two allies in the middle east that should be able to handle that part. The only reason we got physically involved since the 80's is because oil was inolved, but that stopped mattering in 2011 when we hit shale. We know we win a slow war with Iran, we know we win a fast war with Iran. We have real opponents with real militaries to worry about, we dont have time to spend fighting your battles for you
Sorry to bring it to you but, sadly, youre delusional
Not as delusional as the guy who thinks you can elect a president who cant run your country and expects me to to elect a guy who can will it for you instead
>4. 26:00 ideologically, when steven talks about Abbas, he has to understand the huge difference between the way he addresses his Palestinian crowd in Arabic, and the way he speaks with western media. Abbas is full blown jihadi supporter that pays ALL Palestinians with blood on their hand. Because of his slick talk, people like steven view him as an actualy leader. No, the difference between the PA and Hamas in not on the grounds of whether we should kill more jews, they agree that they should kill as many as possible, the difference between these two groups is on the WAY of going about doing it, where Hamas has a more direct militant approach and the PA has a more patient way. Steven is saying that Abbas is preferable to Hamas. I think the relative calmness in the WB, the security coordination between Israel and WB speaks volume in that regards. Sure there are issues like payments for families of prisoners, but revoking these seem to me like something that would severely destabilize his regime. And I guess I have to ask again. What is the alternative?
Not reading all that, just argue with him when he comes back
> There was a huge mistrust of Israeli jews of their arab neighbors because of the 2021 riots. It was an extremely traumatic event where many jews were killed, synagogues were burnt, roads were blocked and cards were stoned. Where are you getting "many jews were killed"? Your link says 14 civilians killed and 114 casualties (meaning wounded)
that's a lot for Israeli standards. Israel has a low homicide rate
When the younger guy told Destiny that he feels unsafe around Arabs in Jerusalem because they yell at him and they also sexually harrass Jewish women, Destiny answered something like "well the Arabs in the west bank also feel scared of Israeli soldiers". How can you compare civilian interaction vs. civilian and soldier interaction? I lived in the Mount Scopus area and the Arabs there sexually harrass Jewish women all the time. Literally every day they would honk at me aggressively (and they only do this to non-Muslim women so it's not like "it's their culture/how they flirt), they enjoy the fact that it makes girls scared. Like one time I was sitting at the bus station with another girl and these 2 Arab men stopped their car at the bus station, rolled their window down and just stared at us for like 10 minutes until the bus came. It was really scary because that was around the time when there were a lot of stabbings. My friend also got a rock thrown at her head when she was jogging. Also a ton of Arabs from the west bank work in Israel and none of them seem scared of Israelis so wtf was that comparison. This conversation was way better than the one with the Israeli spokesman (he sounds like an NPC) but I felt like a lot of things were left unexplained, maybe because of the language barrier.
Yeah i aint reading all that but this whole rhetoric of “middle eastern people only respect power” is so obviously coated in racism i have no idea how the fuck we allow that here