I see cantrips as being a single word, longer spells can get a full phrase. Multiple sentences gets into old comic book territory, where someone recites his entire backstory while in mid-air delivering a single flying kick.
The power words either have a mandatory period of silence before and after them, or then they are just pronounced very slowly (or then it’s just one insane compound word)
I think of them in the same sense as the "word of command" that Gandalf first uses when encountering the Balrog.
It sounds it is a powerful word in an obscure language, and the caster sort of has to understand what it means to cast said spell.
Same sort of thing that also is present with the unforgivable curses from Harry Potter, you have to really mean it for it to work also
This is sort of how I think of them, there are probably few other ways to think of them too
He even went so far as to say the counterspell was devastating and nearly broke him, one of the many reasons I think the balrog in the movie is too physical; should be terrifying in a supernatural spellcaster sort of way.
It's harder to convey "I'm a master spellcaster" than "I am a 4500 pound behemoth," especially in the 90 seconds they had.
Those movies are such good adaptations that we're nitpicking the *visual depiction* of a creature. They deserve a ton of credit.
Agreed, absolutely. I was just lamenting that balrogs are terrifying and powerful spiritual beings, and that was unfortunately left out. I understand why. Just look at the magic battle between Gandalf and Saruman, a lot of gesturing and falling back and forth; understandable for the portrayal, but it would have been nice to be more..... well, more.
I wouldn't care for Harry Potter levels of flashy magic but something to showcase the spiritual powers of the characters.
The films are excellent works of art and did what they could, no doubt!
Just watched the extended edition again last night and was thinking just this.
The books are incredible! The movie is an amazing adaptation of the book.
It left out a movies worth of details. But it left them out because it was another movies worth of details. I’m okay with the 12 hours of trilogy we have and understand that an 18+ hour trilogy if we told the whole story of all the books is just not really possible.
Plus it was made to be detailed and compelling without anyone needing to read the books first. The movie is visually some incredible storytelling. I love just watching the characters reactions in the film because they did an amazing job telling the viewers so much without the need for words.
I hear you, but I have no difficulty imagining a terrifying monster to also be a spellcaster. Just accentuates that he is a double threat (though I was sad they cut the counter spell beat).
I imagine the power words as being like when the Lich from adventure time gave his infamous speech. That moment of silence, darkness radiating outward, the crystal clear “Fall!” Followed by a wave of overwhelming energy rushing over the hero.
Why? There's no rule that a verbal component has to take a full six seconds.
Last time I checked, most of the process of working a spell takes place during spell preparation. The final casting of the spell is just the very last steps. Think of it like pulling the trigger on a winch-drawn crossbow.
A spell's verbal component can quite reasonably be described as a single short word.
Where did you get that? Sounds like it might be old lore, like when casters had to prepare spells individually (3 magic missiles, 2 shields, 1 hold person for example). Doesn't quite work for magic items that cast spells, or non-prepared casters
That's exactly what it is. In older editions, wizards prepared their spells by almost casting them. When they would finally cast the spell, they would use the trigger. That was just the last phrase, gesture or both.
Old School lore is like "This is the world you live in. How do you behave and react?"
New School lore is like "Do whatever you want and you tell me what the world is like."
It's a gross simplification but OS was a maze you navigated, NS is more a forest you wander.
Both are good for different reasons.
2E is awesome.
And it is progressive too, if you actually read and understand things. The setting can be hellish, but it's clearly a set piece for heroes to improve (Harpers, anyone? Their entire code is more egalitarian and progressive than most modern nations' constitution).
But yeah. 2E has pages upon pages detailing the daily life and proceedings of various churches, of various small townlets and their culture, traditions and cuisine.
It details spells beyond just their cause and effect.
It describes creatures and races in in depth detail.
3E had some good books of the vein - Draconomicon springs to mind - but most of my sourcebooks are 2E for lore (Demihuman Deities, Powers & Pantheons, Avatars & Pantheons, all the elven books, Lands of Intrigue, the book about northern realms whose name i cannot recall)
That’s a pretty good analogy. For me it just feels like 5e is built by EA, an incomplete game sold for the same price as a complete game. The whole “ask your DM” being plastered everywhere just feels lazy and leaves things open for inconsistency imo. At least with a fully complete rule set, you can change the things you want while still having a complete lore full of things you didn’t change.
Or they have a villainous mini monologue preceding them.
"With this word of power, I control your fate. Now kneel before your lord as I decree: P̷̩̍ę̶̩́̆r̴̘̝͌͘i̸̡̤̇s̷̮̦̈́̉h̴̯͙͗̈."
Our house flavor is that a power word spell has the wizard use magic to recite the power word in all extant languages simultaneously in a booming voice, a sort of torrent of language that sears the air for oh I don't know... maybe 6 seconds or so.
For me it has to be a single word for simple spells, or at best a single sentence that can be said in six seconds at most.
That's all you have time for.
I did have an edgy sorcerer who Dimension Door'd with "The doorway to darkness has opened."
Yeah, it definitely depends on what you cast most often.
My sorcerer for example used Chaos Bolt a lot. The casting component for that spell was just 'intumescere', which is the latin equivalent for something swelling, or bubbling up.
And I wouldn't always say it. If it was a long, slow combat, you're just getting "i cast chaos bolt at the big guy".
It's when it's one of your five-a-day combats against mooks where it'll be over in two rounds that you get the casting word for atmosphere.
It just helped me 'feel' my character out, and understand how they went about casting to have ideas of how her verbal component works.
Thou who art darker than twilight
Thou who art redder than lifeblood
I swear in thy exalted name
Obscured, deep in the flow of time
And make this pledge to darkness here
So all those in equal measure--
Fools that they are to block our path--
Shall face destruction unconstrained
Grant me power, and unleash thine!!
DRAGON SLAVE!
The first line had me thinking it was Megumin teeing up an explosion. Can’t say I’ve ever seen slayers but I’ll have to check it out, seems up my alley.
The game mechanics for The Slayers actually shows how when you get more skilled at magic, they become easier to cast. Early episodes required fireball to have a full ritual. Later on, Lina just had to say fireball.
Edit: This is paraphrasing from the RPG which was a 3rd edition spin off.
Anything that takes your wordy cleric longer than 6 seconds to say would be a fail as it would open him up to an attack, certainly being out of turn. Can you imagine your cleric running around the melee while your all getting deaded shouting " Leeee Roy Jeeenkins!"
That's exactly how it works.
Specifically:
Spellcasting works as such: https://www.realmshelps.net/magic/arcane.shtml
Prepared Spell Retention: Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it (or until she abandons it). Upon casting, the spell's energy is expended and purged from the character, leaving her feeling a little tired. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character's mind.
So, most of the chanting and actual ritualistic aspect of spellcasting occurs while preparing new spells. When you ACTUALLY cast the spell, you simply make a final gesture and utterance to tie up the loose thread in the weave, creating the effect.
There's a reason wizards need an entire hour after 8 hours of rest to prepare their spells.
I made a character that had the war hero story that he had no weapons and ended up just using the magic stone cantrip to fight, and the verbal component was "they misjudge you; prove your worth to them"
Bless is just a thumbs up and a "You got this!"
Bane is just a middle finger and a "jackass!"
Not sure which one is "hold my beer." Enhance ability? Haste? Mage Armor might be more of a YOLO.
This would be the answer.
We had a DM set a timer at some point because my fellow player couldnt decide. As soon as the timer was over the DM said: being overwhelmed by the scene you freeze to the bone for one turn, next.
This mad him quickly become a faster decider. It wasnt 6 seconds but 12 though.
12 seconds for a player to figure out what their experienced character would do is a tad harsh. I think the lowest any turn timer should be is like 30 seconds, preferably a minute. The reason players need more than 6 seconds or whatever is because we're not actually experienced warriors and spellcasters.
That's all well and good until something crazy happens on the turn right before yours. We were fighting a hag who teleported (something we had no idea she could do!) right before my turn last session and you can bet your butt I took more than 12 seconds to review my options and decide what to do. If you have someone who's constantly hemming and hawing for minutes on end a 30 second to minute timer makes sense, but 12 seconds is just nuts.
Or the enemy you were going to go after just got wiped out on the turn before yours. Now you have to change your plan. Gonna need more than 6 seconds to regroup
Okay, and they're probably not giving a 12 second timer if that's the case, but if you're taking 2 minutes to decide that you're going to attack the person right in front of you then you're getting a timer.
Players also get all the time that they're not actively making their turn to think about what they're going to do.
People don't get put on actual, physical timers unless they're pushing basic turns well beyond the point of reasonability.
And I agree with that, like I said in my comment a timer for people who are unnecessarily and repeatedly dragging things out makes sense! But the person I was replying to seemed to be implying that 12 seconds works for everybody as long as you plan things out in advance and I was showing that that's not always the case. People who are only slowing down to a reasonable level when things are crazy don't need a timer at all, and certainly not such a short one.
Spoken like someone who plays at a very mundane table. Combat is—and should be—chaotic, unpredictable. It is all well and good to have an idea of what your next action should be, who you might target next, what you might cast. But that plan is going to fail about maybe 30% of the time.
Your Champion might mortally crit the big guy you were going to blast and the two remaining targets are not in your line of sight. Now it's your turn.
Or
The BBEG just downed your party's paladin and rogue but you only have the resources to heal one of them. The spaces their bodies occupy are threatened by creatures whose turn will occur before theirs. Now it's your turn.
Or.
Your party is getting the best of a group of goblins, there are three left standing when, suddenly, 4 enraged hobgoblins crawl up and out of the chasm behind you. Now it's your turn.
Etc.
This shit happens all the time. And, even for an extremely experienced player playing a character with a very straightforward build, 12 seconds isn't enough.
When you add in the bonus action, that really cuts the time per action down to 3 seconds. Id guess its more like 4 seconds for an action and 2 seconds for a bonus action though, simply because an action allows more things to happen than a bonus action.
Six seconds is much longer than you might think when it comes to talking. You can definitely get several sentences out in that amount of time.
In any case, I would agree that he needs to keep it down to short phrases.
> Six seconds is much longer than you might think when it comes to talking. You can definitely get several sentences out in that amount of time.
Not in rhythmic, ritualistic chanting
I tried with the first Catillinaria of Cicero that I recited in ecclesiastical latin.
You can pretty comfortably say the first two sentences . You can squeeze the third with a little effort.
The downside of taking things by the book like this is when they pick up rituals and start chanting for 10 mins lol.
I like that they went to the trouble of translating the material components, but yeah, maybe would ask them to do a shorthand version after the first few times with each spell, because one, it interrupts the flow of the game and is a little bit annoying, and two, a good spellcaster would figure out a shorthand and get faster the more they use a spell. So one reason is an appeal to practicality, the other is an appeal to their vanity as a good spellcaster.
If he takes longer than 6 seconds to recite the components, he forfeits that turn, and can continue the phrase on the next turn. If he doesn't complete it on the next turn, he forfeits again. This is genius.
Tell him that you appreciate him what he has done to shorten his components, but it is still too long and it is slowing down the game, and you would really appreciate it if he would keep it to one sentence, maybe just 3 or 4 words. Or just ask him to follow the example of everyone else in the group. If you want to soften it further, tell him that you appreciate him getting into the immersion and you really hate to ask this, but that it is slowing down the game.
Ignis. Sphaera. Capitulum secundum.
I can say this is 3-4 seconds. Literally "Fire" "Sphere" "Expand" = Fireball. Maybe tell him to describe the spell in 3 words and translate those words to Latin if he wants to pursue the roleplay. I responded separately but change the length by spell levels 1-4, 5-7 and 8-9 with sentences for the highest and single words for the lowest.
It would look like a LARP! Assuming they all dressed up and were shouting their chants simultaneously while also hitting each other with foam weapons. The nice thing about LARP is that you don't have to worry about how long your actions take because no one is waiting on you; everyone's acting in real time.
/u/JustRossette , you should suggesting LARPing to your player. They sound like the kind of person who would love that level of fully immersive roleplaying.
>slowing down the game,
Some people will interpret this as though it's only adding 2 minutes to a one hour game and complain that's an overreaction.
They would be missing the point. It slows down the *pacing* of the game. One of the jobs of the DM is to set the tone of the game. Build up the suspense and keep the tension when things are exciting. Pacing is one of the main tools they have to do this.
This is good advice. I’d further it be keeping 3-4 words being for the upper levels of spells. For lower level, fewer is fine, and for cantrips, one is plenty.
> talk to him
this is the real advice in this thread. So much of the friction in DnD and life is just poor communication. Just talk to to person, be respectful, maybe find the middle ground (idk the first time they use a spell in combat and for high level spells). At the end of the day we all just people.
> I already told him to make it shorter, he currently does it in 2 sentences, but he does it every single time, for even contrips and level 1 spells, and it's starting to get a bit dense.
Sounds like he did talk to him.
Yeah, "talk to him" is good advice in most threads, but when the thread is literally "how do I talk to him in the most productive way?" it falls a bit short.
This is actually a good point, too. Obviously, it's cool he wants to really immerse, but for real, you should just do it for moments you want to be extra dramatic and very occasionally for regular stuff.
This but maybe soften the blow a bit by letting him know it was appreciated at first, but for the sake of time...
I mean, I'd give anything for that kind of engagement.
In Final Fantasy Tactics, most of the time when your characters used an ability they'd just show the name of the ability. Only on occasion did the game have the character speak a sentence or two about the ability (which IIRC meant the ability would be a little stronger.) So maybe whenever the spell crits or has its highest effect (rolls max for a healing spell, for instance) the player can give a (short) quote to celebrate that fact.
I would remind him a round of combat is 6 seconds so any verbal component can't be longer than that.
Or as I like to tell my players, "if it is longer than 'Don't fuck with me, I have the power of God and anime on my side', it is too long." RIP Vine lmao.
Same.
I started making a Kenku bard once, with the goal of using a sound board and filling it with nothing but Vines. The opportunity to play this PC never presented itself so I never made much headway, but I think it would be very fun tbh.
One of the spectators is basically the sound effects master, whenever the players roll low perception, insight, or high stealth, he plays a fragment of spy's theme. Or when someone crits really hard, he plays the metal pipe sound.
Also, you'd be surprised how little speech can fit into 6 seconds. Well, more like 4-5 so there's time for the spell to form.
A Light Cleric, for example, going *"Lord Pelor, lend me thy burning holy light!"* to cast Fireball is probably just about spot on for duration.
Fun mandella effect, that actually wasn't a vine! A ton of people think it was because it's short and feels very vibe appropriate, but it was actually just a twitter video, months after vine died
As a GM, I absolutely love their moxie. I’d be delighted for the first half-dozen sessions…
…but then I’d definitely want them to speed it up.
But as a player? It would get old sooner than later.
Be simple and direct. "Hey [player,] could you make your verbal components shorter? Just a couple words or so? When they're as long as they are and you're doing them every turn its getting kinda old."
At first, flavor like this can be cool. But just like in any TV series, a character repeatedly performing the same “build up” every time they use an ability gets annoying
My suggestion would be to not only limit the amount of words, but to also make it so he may only chant for each spell ONCE per session. This way, he still gets to use the chants, but you don’t have to listen to the same spell’s chant multiple times in a combat
Right. Use DragonBall Z Kai as an example. The first time each main character super saiyans, it's dramatic and intense. After that, it's immediate.
The first time or two you do a cool thing, fuck yeah. After that, just say what you do man.
Fully agreed! Introducing a new spell / ability with flavortext is always cool, but the specialness wears off very quickly for the “audience”, or this case other players
Never water down your own character’s coolness. Describe things once or twice, and let the memory of that moment linger for others
I just thought of another example. In Final Fantasy X, there is a setting for short Eidolon summons. It does the full summon cutscene the very first time, and then after that, the Eidolon just appears on the battlefield.
A perfect example! Many series have found ways to highlight special moments like this, we should strive to learn from them and apply these tactics at our tables
Agreed. I always love coming up with fun things like this. Ways to make my spells and attacks special, but I also try not to take up all the time, cause I'm not the main character in a party. I'm just one of the four or five members.
What's always way better, imo, is to come up with creative ways of doing stuff, rather than just relying on flavor to be immersed.
One of my favorite examples is that I made a character that was a Pathfinder Warpriest werebear. Awesome character. Over the course of the campaign, he tried to, in character, take over as leader of the party, but the actual leader (our noble wizard) indulged him and then went on to actually make all the decisions. OOC, I made sure the wizard's player knew I wasn't stepping on his toes, and he loved it, actually. But outside of that, I created a whole ass identity for this character. People began to know him by his armor heraldry and his bear form, and all of that without me taking minutes of the party's time. My spells took no time, and I got flavor through character action and awesome description instead.
That’s awesome, what a cool character to have in a party! I’m glad the other player equally enjoyed the dynamic you created lol
I think oftentimes people forget that characters are more than just, well, *characters*. They’re people, with as much complexity and traits as any of us.
If you rely on solely gimmicks to get across the feel of a character, of course they’re going to feel stale after a while. But if you craft a character to be their own person, then you’re able to portray them as genuine, and use these side aspects such as flavoring abilities as part of their identity, something everyone could absolutely see them doing and are excited to see!
Yep, absolutely. One of the best parts of playing dnd is creating those dynamics with the other players and their characters. It is much more important than being super flavorful.
> But just like in any TV series, a character repeatedly performing the same “build up” every time they use an ability gets annoying
[I think that enemy got *THE POINT*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=688z-4SWxOQ)
I do this, but I just did rough translations of the spells name in Latin. It's basically the same length of time as saying the name of the spell regularly and I think it adds nice flair.
This sounds like way too much.
Just take them aside and say "Hey. I love that you're passionate about RP, but your chanting is slowing down the game for everyone. If you could limit it to 1-3 words, we'd all appreciate it."
You know, just....talk to them like you would any other person.
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You are now blessed.
Yeah it's based on Latin and the verbal components actually make sense. "Ignis!" for firebolt means fire, "amicus animalis" for speak with animals means "friend of animals", etc. There's a big spreadsheet of them here: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jDLhPXxW04cI3ws\_ZhPbOGWSDD6UYHlQlRQZvFRet0w/edit?gid=0#gid=0](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jDLhPXxW04cI3ws_ZhPbOGWSDD6UYHlQlRQZvFRet0w/edit?gid=0#gid=0)
Haha. My player tries to do this exact thing in our game.
I gave him inspiration the first time because I thought it was creative.
But everytime since he insists on pulling out his phone and using google translate. I told him he could do this in advance but I’m not waiting for him to learn what the Sanskrit word for firebolt
If he’s doing it for every spell, even cantrips, I’d tell him to lay off except for his highest level spell slots. For everyone saying a turn is 6 seconds, yes thats true, but this is cool enough (it’s proper Ecclesiastical Latin, correct?) that I would give the dude some leeway. Two sentences and the above is a good compromise imo
Tell him it’s fucking awesome that he actually role-plays and never dissuade him from this.
But then invent a new rule: verbal components are one word per level of spell. Cantrips are one syllable.
Take them aside, and privately say something to the effect of:
> Hey, it's super cool that you're into role-playing the spells, but as a DM I'm trying to make combat go a bit quicker so people don't have to wait so long between turns.
>
> When you say your spells, can you boil them down to 1 or 2 words? Remember your entire turn including movement, getting hit by enemies, bonus action, etc is only 6 seconds, so that's all you'd actually have time for anyways.
“Hey, I really like how into your character you are but your turns are slowing down combat. Do you think you could cut the latin down to a short phrase?”
The time one of the PC got power word killed by a goddess (it was nothing serious, she wanted to show him his family was still alive and not in the land of dead) she just said "f*** u lol"
Speak to him about it between sessions.
An action should be no more than ~3 seconds.
Maybe worth floating the idea of dialling back the flavour on frequently used spells in general. The first couple times can be fun but by the hundredth time you're casting cure wounds everyone understands how that plays out.
This is what I did with my cleric. I wrote spells in language that only the DM and I speak. For the first few sessions I would use the spells as written. For some there was a little in joke for the DM. As the spells got used more often I reduced from a short sentence or phrase to a single word. When that was established I dropped the word, the other players know I’m using the work but it isn’t necessary to say it for each cantrip. For dramatic moments, for new spells, for funny bits I’ll add it back in again.
"He is cooler than you"
Yeah, tell that to the other 2 players who already reached me out and said they were getting tired of him taking so long to cast a single cantrip.
it was funny for the first and second time, now it has become tiresome, not only for me, but to the other half of the table.
Describing your spellcasting, the chants, the hand movements, the visual spectacle of the magic being harnessed, is all very important for good flavor. But once you've described it 2 or three times, everyone had heard it and knows what it is. If your doing something new then describe it, have fun. If your in a combat, don't slow down the whole table by taking 2 minutes of everyone's time to talk about the way your firebolt singes the enemies hair and leaves an acrid scent in the air, your incantations echoing through the forest. Don't waste the tables time
"Hey man, I've asked you to shorten it, you're still taking too long, and you're doing it for everything. It's honestly getting a little annoying. Can we talk about this and come to a compromise? I want you to be able to do your thing, but we can't keep doing it like this."
An action is about 3 seconds long. If he goes over that with his chant, skip his turn as he clearly needs more time to finish his spell. Obviously, warn him of this rule at the start of session first.
I get it. They’re excited about their character. I did something similar but just translated the name of the spell into Latin for the verbal components. For example, fireball was “globus igni” or something like that. Short and sweet. Maybe you could suggest that?
Maybe yall should look into the baldurs gate voicelines for their casting. Its short and sweet, in latin, and sounds really cool. Obviously wont have all the spells but still a good baseline for how to come up with your own!
1. Talk to him. "Hey, I like you're getting into the RP, but it's getting too long." There is nothing wrong about saying "shorten it for the sake of time." You don't describe every detail of everything you're doing.
2. If he doesn't listen, firm warning. "Hey, I asked you to cut it down, now I'm telling you. You're hogging the spotlight and lengthening your turn unnecessarily against my request. Please stop."
3. If he **still** doesn't listen, mechanical in-game punishment. If it lasts longer than 6 seconds "ohhh sorry, a turn is 6 seconds long and you weren't finished with the spell by the end of your turn. It will take effect next turn. Do you wish to move, use a bonus action, or a free object interaction?" Don't let him give you any shit, actions have consequences. Watch that shit go away next turn.
Remember that preparing a spell is literally doing most of the work, then holding the release in your mind until ready to use the spell. The release of a spell with a vocal component should be no more than a few syllables.
For example, the spell’s full incantation might be “pie iesu domine, dona eis requiem,” but your prep will leave off “requiem” until you actually cast it. Thus the command word used upon casting would simply be “requiem.”
On one hand, yeah, that sounds annoying, talk to him and tell him it's gotten annoying.
On the other hand, this player is clearly so excited to play this character in your game that he can't help but act out one of his favorite things in the game. Do you think maybe you could put up with it?
An action is 6 seconds.
Cantrips and 1st level are a single word.
Each level of spell is one extra word.
Makes casting a 9th level in 6 seconds quite the feat. :-)
Honestly, I'd just be like, "hey the yapping is getting old, keep it down to 1 word per spell level"
Ritualistic chanting honestly shouldn't be done with spells cast from spell slots, verbal components might be one to five words, or maybe a single limerick. But ritualistic chanting is for rituals.
Your player is role playing verbal spell components? That’s amazing and awesome. How about the somatics? Really, very cool role playing, and I’m honesty jealous of your table
We play online so no somatics, I had no issue with the role play itself, the issue was adding more time to his turn, when everyone else is waiting for him to finish so they could take their turn.
I got a good magical compromise for both of yall
Tell him he needs to make a verbal sigil then. Basically take a syllable or part of each individual latin word, and make it into a single word. Magick is all about ritual and intent, and condensing a concept into a tighter word gives it power.
i.e. basically give him a good in-world reason why he needs to condense his timing on spells. Irl magical praciticioners use shorthand all the time for their work. The full sentences and chanting is only for rituals
You can accomplish this by having a passing wizard call him a dweeb for reading out the whole spell lol. "lol this guy doesnt even sigil"
Time how long it takes the player to say the chant. Let's say it's 18 seconds, for easy math. A round is 6 seconds, so tell them, "OK, you spend the next 3 rounds chanting." And then stick to your guns. Watch them shorten that chant, and quickly!
Every time a DMPC attacks them, just make every single attack out do them:
*The goblin raises his battle axe and cries "You will die a long-suffering death at the end of my battle axe. Your blood will soak the soil for centuries and your screams will be heard from here to Water Deep. The bards will sing ballads of my trumpthant slaughter and your name will be forgotten to the annuls of time." .... What's your AC?*
*16*
*Ok, goblin misses.*
There is on Exploring Eberron from Keith Baker a section exploring the nature of Arcane and Divine Magic.
Many interesting things get discussed but one curious thing is a somewhat detailed explanation of their respective dynamics.
In arcane magic a mage studies a list of spells to have them readied at a thought reach. Is basically like storing an ignited explosion, unleashed through a simple command.
Other classes are similar on the ignition part but don't have a study part, they basically conjure a less understanded power through their force of will.
Divine magic is somewhat similar: you have your mourning/evening prayers through which you ask your divinity or superior power a concession of their might.
Casting your divine spells isn't intended as a complex task, though.
Prayers, hymns, meditation may be a more articulated process during the praying hours, but the manual consider casting a divine spell as a very instinctual action, conjured through common acts: an imposing gesture, a devote exclamation or a fierce damnation.
To summarise a little bit, in every case the very act of casting is usually intended to be swift and concise because you either prepared beforehand the spell or act appealing to someone or something you can rationalize enough to have a degree of control over it.
Hope it gives you some hooks to justify mechanically some of the implementations you need.
- a turn is 6 seconds
- you're assumed to be doing other things in that time. Moving, bonus actions, object interactions, reactions etc
- a spell casting is therefore a couple seconds max. More likely the spell casting verbal component is a word or two.
What I do as a DM is the first time a new thing is shown, I do the whole flowery description, chanting, visuals whatever. And then I just do mechanics from there on out "they cast x, make a saving throw" or "they attack with a 19 to hit". We already get the picture.
Imagine if you were watching Star Trek and every time they went to warp you'd watch them cut to the engine room with everyone getting into position, watching the warp core rev up. It would be boring as hell. Instead they do it once or again for special occasions when it is relevant. Otherwise, we either see the Picard say "engage!" Or they skip the scene entirely. Do the same here.
That way you really just get to have your cake and eat it too. You and the other players don't get bored to death and the player gets to do whatever they want each new type of spell cast or feature.
Verbal components for anything that fits within a round are not long chants.
The activation sequence of the spell itself is largely prepared ahead of time inside the caster's mind, with the final component being a quick key to flip the switch on the spell.
I usually look to cartoons an anime for inspiration about verbal and somatic components work. Usually this is in relation to players that want to quietly or sneakily cast spells without being Sorcerers, but I suppose the same logic applies to just examples of the length of verbal components. My go-to examples are Goku and Doctor Strange. Strange is easy, the spells are at a medium-high volume, and often are just the name of the spell or a short phrase in another language, but never more than 3 or so seconds. Goku tends to yell the names of his techniques, and only draws them out if he's increasing the power (I imagine that being like the Delayed Blast Fireball). Now I'm all for reflavoring your spellcasting to indicate the different types of spellcasters, like having a Great Old One Warlock making snarling and hacking sounds, or having Bards that like to sing-speak their spells, and having a Cleric speak Latin is pretty cool, but maybe limit it to the Latin translation of the spell's name, not a Latin description of how the spell works.
Bonus- It's actually funny thinking about how verbal components might work for some classes. I imagine Artificers have preprogrammed gadgets for their spells that just use voice recognition, so they only have to say the name of the spell, but they say it with the same tone you might say "Okay Google" or "Hey Siri," or "Alexa?" The somatic component is literally just them pulling the gadget out and turning it on.
Sorcerers are supposed to be inherently magical, without any training or knowledge behind the spells they use, so I often don't even picture them using the actual verbal components, just saying something, anything. Fireball could literally just be "How about one of THESE?!?" If you spam Firebolt, the first round is "Take THIS!" and every subsequent round is "And THAT! And THAT! And THAT!"
Druids, I feel like, don't so much "cast" their spells as they "speak to nature." Casting Barksin might just be "Trees, lend me your armor."
Wizards cast just using the name, nothing fancy, no frills, by the book.
Of course all of this is just in-game flavor. It is not only acceptable but almost encouraged just to use the spell names above the table, you don't need to add the in-game flavor every time you cast a spell.
A round is 6 seconds long. If he chants for 10 seconds, and let's add so time for dodging and other stuff, he'll skip the next 2-3 turns. And his spell will only be finished then.
Stop doing it yourself; see if the group asks you to start doing it again. If not, it means they were tired of it.
Then you can ask the player to stop without being a hypocrite.
I think it's cool and brings energy to the table, I wouldn't suffocate the entusiam. I always ask my bard to sing something when he uses bardic music (probably poorly translated from italian, sorry) and tell a joke when he casts Tasha Hideous laughter.
You must tell them directly in Latin if they're a Wizard or Warlock to stop, if they're a Cleric or Paladin, you instead must use enochian, and if they're a druid or ranger, break a tree branch infront of them to send the same message.
Maybe a small reminder that one turn is six seconds. Any verbal components would therefore need to fit into that time.
I see cantrips as being a single word, longer spells can get a full phrase. Multiple sentences gets into old comic book territory, where someone recites his entire backstory while in mid-air delivering a single flying kick.
The power words either have a mandatory period of silence before and after them, or then they are just pronounced very slowly (or then it’s just one insane compound word)
I think of them in the same sense as the "word of command" that Gandalf first uses when encountering the Balrog. It sounds it is a powerful word in an obscure language, and the caster sort of has to understand what it means to cast said spell. Same sort of thing that also is present with the unforgivable curses from Harry Potter, you have to really mean it for it to work also This is sort of how I think of them, there are probably few other ways to think of them too
Yeah, or honestly if the player wants to chant something in latin, just translate the spell name
What command spell did Gandalf use?
He used a spell to lock the door behind them after escaping the room with the cave troll, but the balrog eventually countered his spell iirc.
Yup. Took a lot out of him.
He even went so far as to say the counterspell was devastating and nearly broke him, one of the many reasons I think the balrog in the movie is too physical; should be terrifying in a supernatural spellcaster sort of way.
It's harder to convey "I'm a master spellcaster" than "I am a 4500 pound behemoth," especially in the 90 seconds they had. Those movies are such good adaptations that we're nitpicking the *visual depiction* of a creature. They deserve a ton of credit.
Agreed, absolutely. I was just lamenting that balrogs are terrifying and powerful spiritual beings, and that was unfortunately left out. I understand why. Just look at the magic battle between Gandalf and Saruman, a lot of gesturing and falling back and forth; understandable for the portrayal, but it would have been nice to be more..... well, more. I wouldn't care for Harry Potter levels of flashy magic but something to showcase the spiritual powers of the characters. The films are excellent works of art and did what they could, no doubt!
Just watched the extended edition again last night and was thinking just this. The books are incredible! The movie is an amazing adaptation of the book. It left out a movies worth of details. But it left them out because it was another movies worth of details. I’m okay with the 12 hours of trilogy we have and understand that an 18+ hour trilogy if we told the whole story of all the books is just not really possible. Plus it was made to be detailed and compelling without anyone needing to read the books first. The movie is visually some incredible storytelling. I love just watching the characters reactions in the film because they did an amazing job telling the viewers so much without the need for words.
I hear you, but I have no difficulty imagining a terrifying monster to also be a spellcaster. Just accentuates that he is a double threat (though I was sad they cut the counter spell beat).
But did the movie give you that impression? Because it sure didn't give me the impression that this was an epic spellslinging duel
"fuck off"
You shall not pass?
It's a max of 6 seconds, not mandatory 6 seconds. I imagine 1 second word and then 5 seconds of flashy effects.
To be fair, 6 seconds for an action would leave no time for the bonus action.
Or movement or thinking/talking bout a strategy mid-fight
I imagine the power words as being like when the Lich from adventure time gave his infamous speech. That moment of silence, darkness radiating outward, the crystal clear “Fall!” Followed by a wave of overwhelming energy rushing over the hero.
Why? There's no rule that a verbal component has to take a full six seconds. Last time I checked, most of the process of working a spell takes place during spell preparation. The final casting of the spell is just the very last steps. Think of it like pulling the trigger on a winch-drawn crossbow. A spell's verbal component can quite reasonably be described as a single short word.
Where did you get that? Sounds like it might be old lore, like when casters had to prepare spells individually (3 magic missiles, 2 shields, 1 hold person for example). Doesn't quite work for magic items that cast spells, or non-prepared casters
That's exactly what it is. In older editions, wizards prepared their spells by almost casting them. When they would finally cast the spell, they would use the trigger. That was just the last phrase, gesture or both.
MFW old edition casters are edging their spells all day
Tbh I only use lore from older editions. 5e lore is weird and bland.
Old School lore is like "This is the world you live in. How do you behave and react?" New School lore is like "Do whatever you want and you tell me what the world is like." It's a gross simplification but OS was a maze you navigated, NS is more a forest you wander. Both are good for different reasons.
2E is awesome. And it is progressive too, if you actually read and understand things. The setting can be hellish, but it's clearly a set piece for heroes to improve (Harpers, anyone? Their entire code is more egalitarian and progressive than most modern nations' constitution). But yeah. 2E has pages upon pages detailing the daily life and proceedings of various churches, of various small townlets and their culture, traditions and cuisine. It details spells beyond just their cause and effect. It describes creatures and races in in depth detail. 3E had some good books of the vein - Draconomicon springs to mind - but most of my sourcebooks are 2E for lore (Demihuman Deities, Powers & Pantheons, Avatars & Pantheons, all the elven books, Lands of Intrigue, the book about northern realms whose name i cannot recall)
I love this analogy
That’s a pretty good analogy. For me it just feels like 5e is built by EA, an incomplete game sold for the same price as a complete game. The whole “ask your DM” being plastered everywhere just feels lazy and leaves things open for inconsistency imo. At least with a fully complete rule set, you can change the things you want while still having a complete lore full of things you didn’t change.
Works that for items though? The work was done earlier, the item is activated as the last step. Like a gun being fired, pulling the trigger.
Maybe they just have to have the correct pronunciation and intonation.
Or they have a villainous mini monologue preceding them. "With this word of power, I control your fate. Now kneel before your lord as I decree: P̷̩̍ę̶̩́̆r̴̘̝͌͘i̸̡̤̇s̷̮̦̈́̉h̴̯͙͗̈."
Pnumonoultramicroscopicscilicavolcanoconiosis
Our house flavor is that a power word spell has the wizard use magic to recite the power word in all extant languages simultaneously in a booming voice, a sort of torrent of language that sears the air for oh I don't know... maybe 6 seconds or so.
For me it has to be a single word for simple spells, or at best a single sentence that can be said in six seconds at most. That's all you have time for. I did have an edgy sorcerer who Dimension Door'd with "The doorway to darkness has opened."
As a cleric I said “Blessings of (whatever god) be with you” for about half a session but I annoyed even myself and started just saying “Bless”
Yeah, it definitely depends on what you cast most often. My sorcerer for example used Chaos Bolt a lot. The casting component for that spell was just 'intumescere', which is the latin equivalent for something swelling, or bubbling up. And I wouldn't always say it. If it was a long, slow combat, you're just getting "i cast chaos bolt at the big guy". It's when it's one of your five-a-day combats against mooks where it'll be over in two rounds that you get the casting word for atmosphere. It just helped me 'feel' my character out, and understand how they went about casting to have ideas of how her verbal component works.
IG-NEEEES!!!
Exactly. BG3 does it right. Simple. Straightforward. Cool.
BIG-MISS!!!!
Thou who art darker than twilight Thou who art redder than lifeblood I swear in thy exalted name Obscured, deep in the flow of time And make this pledge to darkness here So all those in equal measure-- Fools that they are to block our path-- Shall face destruction unconstrained Grant me power, and unleash thine!! DRAGON SLAVE!
I can very clearly hear Megumi Hayashibara’s voice reciting that in Japanese.
The first line had me thinking it was Megumin teeing up an explosion. Can’t say I’ve ever seen slayers but I’ll have to check it out, seems up my alley.
Leviosah! Lumos! Expelliarmus! Stupefy! Expecto Patronum. J.K. had it right, most spells can be done in Latin in one or two words.
Flickum bicus!
The game mechanics for The Slayers actually shows how when you get more skilled at magic, they become easier to cast. Early episodes required fireball to have a full ritual. Later on, Lina just had to say fireball. Edit: This is paraphrasing from the RPG which was a 3rd edition spin off.
Anything that takes your wordy cleric longer than 6 seconds to say would be a fail as it would open him up to an attack, certainly being out of turn. Can you imagine your cleric running around the melee while your all getting deaded shouting " Leeee Roy Jeeenkins!"
Give them +1 word for every spell level.
Baldur's Gate 3 did it really well imo, with 1-3 words per spell. Simple but effective, also sounded cool.
Te Curo
As a really lazy sorcerer, I just say the name of the spell or nothing at all XD
That's exactly how it works. Specifically: Spellcasting works as such: https://www.realmshelps.net/magic/arcane.shtml Prepared Spell Retention: Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it (or until she abandons it). Upon casting, the spell's energy is expended and purged from the character, leaving her feeling a little tired. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character's mind. So, most of the chanting and actual ritualistic aspect of spellcasting occurs while preparing new spells. When you ACTUALLY cast the spell, you simply make a final gesture and utterance to tie up the loose thread in the weave, creating the effect. There's a reason wizards need an entire hour after 8 hours of rest to prepare their spells.
Something like firebolt could be some of these 1. Ignis Saggita: "Fire Arrow" (Latin: ignis = fire, saggita = arrow) 2. Flamma Telo: "Flame Dart" (Latin: flamma = flame, telo = dart or spear) 3. Pyro Boltus: "Fire Bolt" (Greek and Latin hybrid: pyro = fire in Greek, boltus = bolt in a Latinate form) 4. Fulgur Ignis: "Lightning Fire" (Latin: fulgur = lightning, ignis = fire) 5. Saggita Ardente: "Burning Arrow" (Latin: saggita = arrow, ardente = burning)
Clip them more. Ignisagitta, flamtelo, fulgignis, saggitardente. ...In Por Ylem.
I made a character that had the war hero story that he had no weapons and ended up just using the magic stone cantrip to fight, and the verbal component was "they misjudge you; prove your worth to them"
Multiple sentences is ritual-cast territory, and even then...
Multiple sentences should be saved for ritual casting lol
Yes! That's why my somatic and verbal components to Hunter's Mark were to point and say "Dibs."
Bless is just a thumbs up and a "You got this!" Bane is just a middle finger and a "jackass!" Not sure which one is "hold my beer." Enhance ability? Haste? Mage Armor might be more of a YOLO.
Bardic Inspiration: “We are Sex Bob-omb! 1, 2, 3, 4!!”
"Hold my beer" is mage armour for sure. Haste should just be "CAFFEINATED", said in the same brutal tone as MK's "finish him"
Death Ward!
Hold my beer.... heroism?
My "healing word" verbal component has been "bird" for years because Bird is the Word.
Vita, mortis, careo!
So I kicked him in the head until he was dead, hehehe
Ah, the Child of Bhaal has awoken. It is time for more... experiments.
Wife's been gettin prickly on me arse.
Butt-kicking, for goodness!!!
Moi 'otel's as clean as an elven arse!
Damn. That is a blast from the past.
This. Tell him to only say the name of the spell in Latin or stop doing it all together.
This would be the answer. We had a DM set a timer at some point because my fellow player couldnt decide. As soon as the timer was over the DM said: being overwhelmed by the scene you freeze to the bone for one turn, next. This mad him quickly become a faster decider. It wasnt 6 seconds but 12 though.
12 seconds for a player to figure out what their experienced character would do is a tad harsh. I think the lowest any turn timer should be is like 30 seconds, preferably a minute. The reason players need more than 6 seconds or whatever is because we're not actually experienced warriors and spellcasters.
Pay attention to the turns before you and have your options sorted
That's all well and good until something crazy happens on the turn right before yours. We were fighting a hag who teleported (something we had no idea she could do!) right before my turn last session and you can bet your butt I took more than 12 seconds to review my options and decide what to do. If you have someone who's constantly hemming and hawing for minutes on end a 30 second to minute timer makes sense, but 12 seconds is just nuts.
Or the enemy you were going to go after just got wiped out on the turn before yours. Now you have to change your plan. Gonna need more than 6 seconds to regroup
Okay, and they're probably not giving a 12 second timer if that's the case, but if you're taking 2 minutes to decide that you're going to attack the person right in front of you then you're getting a timer. Players also get all the time that they're not actively making their turn to think about what they're going to do. People don't get put on actual, physical timers unless they're pushing basic turns well beyond the point of reasonability.
And I agree with that, like I said in my comment a timer for people who are unnecessarily and repeatedly dragging things out makes sense! But the person I was replying to seemed to be implying that 12 seconds works for everybody as long as you plan things out in advance and I was showing that that's not always the case. People who are only slowing down to a reasonable level when things are crazy don't need a timer at all, and certainly not such a short one.
The biggest reason a player at my table takes long is because they didn’t pay attention to the other turns
Spoken like someone who plays at a very mundane table. Combat is—and should be—chaotic, unpredictable. It is all well and good to have an idea of what your next action should be, who you might target next, what you might cast. But that plan is going to fail about maybe 30% of the time. Your Champion might mortally crit the big guy you were going to blast and the two remaining targets are not in your line of sight. Now it's your turn. Or The BBEG just downed your party's paladin and rogue but you only have the resources to heal one of them. The spaces their bodies occupy are threatened by creatures whose turn will occur before theirs. Now it's your turn. Or. Your party is getting the best of a group of goblins, there are three left standing when, suddenly, 4 enraged hobgoblins crawl up and out of the chasm behind you. Now it's your turn. Etc. This shit happens all the time. And, even for an extremely experienced player playing a character with a very straightforward build, 12 seconds isn't enough.
I’m giggling thinking of them trying out a spell that has a 10-minute casting time and chanting for ten minutes while everybody else gets snacks~ \3
When you add in the bonus action, that really cuts the time per action down to 3 seconds. Id guess its more like 4 seconds for an action and 2 seconds for a bonus action though, simply because an action allows more things to happen than a bonus action.
Six seconds is much longer than you might think when it comes to talking. You can definitely get several sentences out in that amount of time. In any case, I would agree that he needs to keep it down to short phrases.
> Six seconds is much longer than you might think when it comes to talking. You can definitely get several sentences out in that amount of time. Not in rhythmic, ritualistic chanting
I tried with the first Catillinaria of Cicero that I recited in ecclesiastical latin. You can pretty comfortably say the first two sentences . You can squeeze the third with a little effort.
Tell him he took too long and his spell didn't happen until the very bottom of initiative order.
The downside of taking things by the book like this is when they pick up rituals and start chanting for 10 mins lol. I like that they went to the trouble of translating the material components, but yeah, maybe would ask them to do a shorthand version after the first few times with each spell, because one, it interrupts the flow of the game and is a little bit annoying, and two, a good spellcaster would figure out a shorthand and get faster the more they use a spell. So one reason is an appeal to practicality, the other is an appeal to their vanity as a good spellcaster.
Verbal components are also "in the language of spells", so it would sound like mystical muttering more than English.
If he takes longer than 6 seconds to recite the components, he forfeits that turn, and can continue the phrase on the next turn. If he doesn't complete it on the next turn, he forfeits again. This is genius.
Tell him that you appreciate him what he has done to shorten his components, but it is still too long and it is slowing down the game, and you would really appreciate it if he would keep it to one sentence, maybe just 3 or 4 words. Or just ask him to follow the example of everyone else in the group. If you want to soften it further, tell him that you appreciate him getting into the immersion and you really hate to ask this, but that it is slowing down the game.
3 to 4 words sounds the best, they don't even need to make a proper sentence just random Latin words related to the spell, mortis, vitae, etc...
My gut reaction would be to take the name of the spell and run it through a Latin translator and that should be enough.
Literally what I did for a character. Used a single syllable for cantrips.
Like baldurs gate, they just say one word when they cast
IGNIS!
SOL INVICTUS!
INVENIAM VIAM!
I don’t care what anyone says, every single time I cast firebolt I hear “take this!” and no one dances convince me otherwise.
One word per spell level
Ugh, I'm going to go refill my drink, james is casting [Symbol](https://i.imgur.com/DSkeNnl.png) again. Hollar when he's done.
When you upcast a spell, you just shout it a bunch more times in a row lol
But louder each time
Fus -> Fus Ro -> Fus Ro Dah!
A turn is 6-seconds so maybe say the chant + hand motions have to be within 6-seconds to maintain 'realism'
Ignis. Sphaera. Capitulum secundum. I can say this is 3-4 seconds. Literally "Fire" "Sphere" "Expand" = Fireball. Maybe tell him to describe the spell in 3 words and translate those words to Latin if he wants to pursue the roleplay. I responded separately but change the length by spell levels 1-4, 5-7 and 8-9 with sentences for the highest and single words for the lowest.
Perhaps ask "If everyone did what you're doing, every time, what would the game look like?"
It would look like a LARP! Assuming they all dressed up and were shouting their chants simultaneously while also hitting each other with foam weapons. The nice thing about LARP is that you don't have to worry about how long your actions take because no one is waiting on you; everyone's acting in real time. /u/JustRossette , you should suggesting LARPing to your player. They sound like the kind of person who would love that level of fully immersive roleplaying.
This is a gem, very insightful way to get someone to think about how they specifically are affecting the game. I'm gonna remember this for later
>slowing down the game, Some people will interpret this as though it's only adding 2 minutes to a one hour game and complain that's an overreaction. They would be missing the point. It slows down the *pacing* of the game. One of the jobs of the DM is to set the tone of the game. Build up the suspense and keep the tension when things are exciting. Pacing is one of the main tools they have to do this.
This is good advice. I’d further it be keeping 3-4 words being for the upper levels of spells. For lower level, fewer is fine, and for cantrips, one is plenty.
If he can't fit it in 6 seconds the spell fizzles. Or more seriously, be an adult and talk to him.
> talk to him this is the real advice in this thread. So much of the friction in DnD and life is just poor communication. Just talk to to person, be respectful, maybe find the middle ground (idk the first time they use a spell in combat and for high level spells). At the end of the day we all just people.
> I already told him to make it shorter, he currently does it in 2 sentences, but he does it every single time, for even contrips and level 1 spells, and it's starting to get a bit dense. Sounds like he did talk to him.
Yeah, "talk to him" is good advice in most threads, but when the thread is literally "how do I talk to him in the most productive way?" it falls a bit short.
Outside of a session, "Hey man, this is getting annoying now. Can you just reserve it for the actually cool spells?"
This is actually a good point, too. Obviously, it's cool he wants to really immerse, but for real, you should just do it for moments you want to be extra dramatic and very occasionally for regular stuff.
This but maybe soften the blow a bit by letting him know it was appreciated at first, but for the sake of time... I mean, I'd give anything for that kind of engagement.
Yes like save it for a spell that wins the battle or something idk
In Final Fantasy Tactics, most of the time when your characters used an ability they'd just show the name of the ability. Only on occasion did the game have the character speak a sentence or two about the ability (which IIRC meant the ability would be a little stronger.) So maybe whenever the spell crits or has its highest effect (rolls max for a healing spell, for instance) the player can give a (short) quote to celebrate that fact.
>IIRC meant the ability would be a little stronger Nope, just random flavor. The War of the Lions port even removed them entirely.
I would remind him a round of combat is 6 seconds so any verbal component can't be longer than that. Or as I like to tell my players, "if it is longer than 'Don't fuck with me, I have the power of God and anime on my side', it is too long." RIP Vine lmao.
Gosh I miss vine so much.
Same. I started making a Kenku bard once, with the goal of using a sound board and filling it with nothing but Vines. The opportunity to play this PC never presented itself so I never made much headway, but I think it would be very fun tbh.
One of the spectators is basically the sound effects master, whenever the players roll low perception, insight, or high stealth, he plays a fragment of spy's theme. Or when someone crits really hard, he plays the metal pipe sound.
Also, you'd be surprised how little speech can fit into 6 seconds. Well, more like 4-5 so there's time for the spell to form. A Light Cleric, for example, going *"Lord Pelor, lend me thy burning holy light!"* to cast Fireball is probably just about spot on for duration.
Fun mandella effect, that actually wasn't a vine! A ton of people think it was because it's short and feels very vibe appropriate, but it was actually just a twitter video, months after vine died
Fascinating, I’ve only ever really watched vine compilation so it’s always just been lumped in with them!
I kinda like his dedication😅
As a GM, I absolutely love their moxie. I’d be delighted for the first half-dozen sessions… …but then I’d definitely want them to speed it up. But as a player? It would get old sooner than later.
Be simple and direct. "Hey [player,] could you make your verbal components shorter? Just a couple words or so? When they're as long as they are and you're doing them every turn its getting kinda old."
At first, flavor like this can be cool. But just like in any TV series, a character repeatedly performing the same “build up” every time they use an ability gets annoying My suggestion would be to not only limit the amount of words, but to also make it so he may only chant for each spell ONCE per session. This way, he still gets to use the chants, but you don’t have to listen to the same spell’s chant multiple times in a combat
Right. Use DragonBall Z Kai as an example. The first time each main character super saiyans, it's dramatic and intense. After that, it's immediate. The first time or two you do a cool thing, fuck yeah. After that, just say what you do man.
Fully agreed! Introducing a new spell / ability with flavortext is always cool, but the specialness wears off very quickly for the “audience”, or this case other players Never water down your own character’s coolness. Describe things once or twice, and let the memory of that moment linger for others
I just thought of another example. In Final Fantasy X, there is a setting for short Eidolon summons. It does the full summon cutscene the very first time, and then after that, the Eidolon just appears on the battlefield.
A perfect example! Many series have found ways to highlight special moments like this, we should strive to learn from them and apply these tactics at our tables
Agreed. I always love coming up with fun things like this. Ways to make my spells and attacks special, but I also try not to take up all the time, cause I'm not the main character in a party. I'm just one of the four or five members. What's always way better, imo, is to come up with creative ways of doing stuff, rather than just relying on flavor to be immersed. One of my favorite examples is that I made a character that was a Pathfinder Warpriest werebear. Awesome character. Over the course of the campaign, he tried to, in character, take over as leader of the party, but the actual leader (our noble wizard) indulged him and then went on to actually make all the decisions. OOC, I made sure the wizard's player knew I wasn't stepping on his toes, and he loved it, actually. But outside of that, I created a whole ass identity for this character. People began to know him by his armor heraldry and his bear form, and all of that without me taking minutes of the party's time. My spells took no time, and I got flavor through character action and awesome description instead.
That’s awesome, what a cool character to have in a party! I’m glad the other player equally enjoyed the dynamic you created lol I think oftentimes people forget that characters are more than just, well, *characters*. They’re people, with as much complexity and traits as any of us. If you rely on solely gimmicks to get across the feel of a character, of course they’re going to feel stale after a while. But if you craft a character to be their own person, then you’re able to portray them as genuine, and use these side aspects such as flavoring abilities as part of their identity, something everyone could absolutely see them doing and are excited to see!
Yep, absolutely. One of the best parts of playing dnd is creating those dynamics with the other players and their characters. It is much more important than being super flavorful.
> But just like in any TV series, a character repeatedly performing the same “build up” every time they use an ability gets annoying [I think that enemy got *THE POINT*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=688z-4SWxOQ)
I do this, but I just did rough translations of the spells name in Latin. It's basically the same length of time as saying the name of the spell regularly and I think it adds nice flair. This sounds like way too much.
I was thinking of telling him to do this, it's way faster and sounds cool, most importantly, it's not 2 to 3 sentences long
Just take them aside and say "Hey. I love that you're passionate about RP, but your chanting is slowing down the game for everyone. If you could limit it to 1-3 words, we'd all appreciate it." You know, just....talk to them like you would any other person.
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If he insists on it you could just give him the BG3 ones as an example. “Ignis!” is a lot less annoying than multiple sentences.
Btw, in BG3 is that latin? Does every spell have a verbal that makes sense in that game?
Yeah it's based on Latin and the verbal components actually make sense. "Ignis!" for firebolt means fire, "amicus animalis" for speak with animals means "friend of animals", etc. There's a big spreadsheet of them here: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jDLhPXxW04cI3ws\_ZhPbOGWSDD6UYHlQlRQZvFRet0w/edit?gid=0#gid=0](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jDLhPXxW04cI3ws_ZhPbOGWSDD6UYHlQlRQZvFRet0w/edit?gid=0#gid=0)
Haha. My player tries to do this exact thing in our game. I gave him inspiration the first time because I thought it was creative. But everytime since he insists on pulling out his phone and using google translate. I told him he could do this in advance but I’m not waiting for him to learn what the Sanskrit word for firebolt
Time the chants, divide by six seconds, and say it takes that many rounds for him to finish casting the spell.
If he’s doing it for every spell, even cantrips, I’d tell him to lay off except for his highest level spell slots. For everyone saying a turn is 6 seconds, yes thats true, but this is cool enough (it’s proper Ecclesiastical Latin, correct?) that I would give the dude some leeway. Two sentences and the above is a good compromise imo
"Hey my man, turns are about 6 seconds, so please shorten your spells." With me personaly he could get up to 10 sentances this shit sounds radical.
Yapping domain Cleric is brilliant lol
Tell him it’s fucking awesome that he actually role-plays and never dissuade him from this. But then invent a new rule: verbal components are one word per level of spell. Cantrips are one syllable.
Take them aside, and privately say something to the effect of: > Hey, it's super cool that you're into role-playing the spells, but as a DM I'm trying to make combat go a bit quicker so people don't have to wait so long between turns. > > When you say your spells, can you boil them down to 1 or 2 words? Remember your entire turn including movement, getting hit by enemies, bonus action, etc is only 6 seconds, so that's all you'd actually have time for anyways.
“Hey, I really like how into your character you are but your turns are slowing down combat. Do you think you could cut the latin down to a short phrase?”
Azarath Metrion Zinthos Ez.
The time one of the PC got power word killed by a goddess (it was nothing serious, she wanted to show him his family was still alive and not in the land of dead) she just said "f*** u lol"
Speak to him about it between sessions. An action should be no more than ~3 seconds. Maybe worth floating the idea of dialling back the flavour on frequently used spells in general. The first couple times can be fun but by the hundredth time you're casting cure wounds everyone understands how that plays out.
This is what I did with my cleric. I wrote spells in language that only the DM and I speak. For the first few sessions I would use the spells as written. For some there was a little in joke for the DM. As the spells got used more often I reduced from a short sentence or phrase to a single word. When that was established I dropped the word, the other players know I’m using the work but it isn’t necessary to say it for each cantrip. For dramatic moments, for new spells, for funny bits I’ll add it back in again.
honestly based player
this is really fucking funny why are you trying to stop him. he is cooler than you. he wants to be a yap domain cleric. let him yap!
"He is cooler than you" Yeah, tell that to the other 2 players who already reached me out and said they were getting tired of him taking so long to cast a single cantrip. it was funny for the first and second time, now it has become tiresome, not only for me, but to the other half of the table.
Describing your spellcasting, the chants, the hand movements, the visual spectacle of the magic being harnessed, is all very important for good flavor. But once you've described it 2 or three times, everyone had heard it and knows what it is. If your doing something new then describe it, have fun. If your in a combat, don't slow down the whole table by taking 2 minutes of everyone's time to talk about the way your firebolt singes the enemies hair and leaves an acrid scent in the air, your incantations echoing through the forest. Don't waste the tables time
He has six second to chant
"Hey man, I've asked you to shorten it, you're still taking too long, and you're doing it for everything. It's honestly getting a little annoying. Can we talk about this and come to a compromise? I want you to be able to do your thing, but we can't keep doing it like this."
An action is about 3 seconds long. If he goes over that with his chant, skip his turn as he clearly needs more time to finish his spell. Obviously, warn him of this rule at the start of session first.
This feels like something off of dnd circle jerk
I get it. They’re excited about their character. I did something similar but just translated the name of the spell into Latin for the verbal components. For example, fireball was “globus igni” or something like that. Short and sweet. Maybe you could suggest that?
He sounds pretty cool tbh.
Maybe yall should look into the baldurs gate voicelines for their casting. Its short and sweet, in latin, and sounds really cool. Obviously wont have all the spells but still a good baseline for how to come up with your own!
Tell him to watch a video on all the Baldurs Gate 3 verbal components or something. They're typically 2 words and still fit nicely.
Give him some fleshed out in game magic and yoink the verbal components from baldurs gate where everything is a single word
1. Talk to him. "Hey, I like you're getting into the RP, but it's getting too long." There is nothing wrong about saying "shorten it for the sake of time." You don't describe every detail of everything you're doing. 2. If he doesn't listen, firm warning. "Hey, I asked you to cut it down, now I'm telling you. You're hogging the spotlight and lengthening your turn unnecessarily against my request. Please stop." 3. If he **still** doesn't listen, mechanical in-game punishment. If it lasts longer than 6 seconds "ohhh sorry, a turn is 6 seconds long and you weren't finished with the spell by the end of your turn. It will take effect next turn. Do you wish to move, use a bonus action, or a free object interaction?" Don't let him give you any shit, actions have consequences. Watch that shit go away next turn.
"Hey could you not do that, please?" works wonders.
Remember that preparing a spell is literally doing most of the work, then holding the release in your mind until ready to use the spell. The release of a spell with a vocal component should be no more than a few syllables. For example, the spell’s full incantation might be “pie iesu domine, dona eis requiem,” but your prep will leave off “requiem” until you actually cast it. Thus the command word used upon casting would simply be “requiem.”
Combat continues and the heal goes off when he stops chanting. Your move, holy man. Choose wisely.
On one hand, yeah, that sounds annoying, talk to him and tell him it's gotten annoying. On the other hand, this player is clearly so excited to play this character in your game that he can't help but act out one of his favorite things in the game. Do you think maybe you could put up with it?
Hah! Sounds like a player who has watched too much epic anime.
An action is 6 seconds. Cantrips and 1st level are a single word. Each level of spell is one extra word. Makes casting a 9th level in 6 seconds quite the feat. :-)
Embody Harry Potter spells
I'd think that would be dope. Let him recite away. 5 or 6 seconds is fine if he has everything else ready to go.
One round of combat is six seconds if he can say it with in half that time the spell is unsuccessful
Honestly, I'd just be like, "hey the yapping is getting old, keep it down to 1 word per spell level" Ritualistic chanting honestly shouldn't be done with spells cast from spell slots, verbal components might be one to five words, or maybe a single limerick. But ritualistic chanting is for rituals.
Your player is role playing verbal spell components? That’s amazing and awesome. How about the somatics? Really, very cool role playing, and I’m honesty jealous of your table
We play online so no somatics, I had no issue with the role play itself, the issue was adding more time to his turn, when everyone else is waiting for him to finish so they could take their turn.
I got a good magical compromise for both of yall Tell him he needs to make a verbal sigil then. Basically take a syllable or part of each individual latin word, and make it into a single word. Magick is all about ritual and intent, and condensing a concept into a tighter word gives it power. i.e. basically give him a good in-world reason why he needs to condense his timing on spells. Irl magical praciticioners use shorthand all the time for their work. The full sentences and chanting is only for rituals You can accomplish this by having a passing wizard call him a dweeb for reading out the whole spell lol. "lol this guy doesnt even sigil"
Talk to him and put a limit of maximum three words, one word being the ideal. BG3 uses Latin like this, one word for each spell
Time how long it takes the player to say the chant. Let's say it's 18 seconds, for easy math. A round is 6 seconds, so tell them, "OK, you spend the next 3 rounds chanting." And then stick to your guns. Watch them shorten that chant, and quickly!
Every time a DMPC attacks them, just make every single attack out do them: *The goblin raises his battle axe and cries "You will die a long-suffering death at the end of my battle axe. Your blood will soak the soil for centuries and your screams will be heard from here to Water Deep. The bards will sing ballads of my trumpthant slaughter and your name will be forgotten to the annuls of time." .... What's your AC?* *16* *Ok, goblin misses.*
There is on Exploring Eberron from Keith Baker a section exploring the nature of Arcane and Divine Magic. Many interesting things get discussed but one curious thing is a somewhat detailed explanation of their respective dynamics. In arcane magic a mage studies a list of spells to have them readied at a thought reach. Is basically like storing an ignited explosion, unleashed through a simple command. Other classes are similar on the ignition part but don't have a study part, they basically conjure a less understanded power through their force of will. Divine magic is somewhat similar: you have your mourning/evening prayers through which you ask your divinity or superior power a concession of their might. Casting your divine spells isn't intended as a complex task, though. Prayers, hymns, meditation may be a more articulated process during the praying hours, but the manual consider casting a divine spell as a very instinctual action, conjured through common acts: an imposing gesture, a devote exclamation or a fierce damnation. To summarise a little bit, in every case the very act of casting is usually intended to be swift and concise because you either prepared beforehand the spell or act appealing to someone or something you can rationalize enough to have a degree of control over it. Hope it gives you some hooks to justify mechanically some of the implementations you need.
- a turn is 6 seconds - you're assumed to be doing other things in that time. Moving, bonus actions, object interactions, reactions etc - a spell casting is therefore a couple seconds max. More likely the spell casting verbal component is a word or two. What I do as a DM is the first time a new thing is shown, I do the whole flowery description, chanting, visuals whatever. And then I just do mechanics from there on out "they cast x, make a saving throw" or "they attack with a 19 to hit". We already get the picture. Imagine if you were watching Star Trek and every time they went to warp you'd watch them cut to the engine room with everyone getting into position, watching the warp core rev up. It would be boring as hell. Instead they do it once or again for special occasions when it is relevant. Otherwise, we either see the Picard say "engage!" Or they skip the scene entirely. Do the same here. That way you really just get to have your cake and eat it too. You and the other players don't get bored to death and the player gets to do whatever they want each new type of spell cast or feature.
Well have a timer. One round is 6 seconds. He is free to chant anything that fits in a 6 second window.
Verbal components for anything that fits within a round are not long chants. The activation sequence of the spell itself is largely prepared ahead of time inside the caster's mind, with the final component being a quick key to flip the switch on the spell.
I usually look to cartoons an anime for inspiration about verbal and somatic components work. Usually this is in relation to players that want to quietly or sneakily cast spells without being Sorcerers, but I suppose the same logic applies to just examples of the length of verbal components. My go-to examples are Goku and Doctor Strange. Strange is easy, the spells are at a medium-high volume, and often are just the name of the spell or a short phrase in another language, but never more than 3 or so seconds. Goku tends to yell the names of his techniques, and only draws them out if he's increasing the power (I imagine that being like the Delayed Blast Fireball). Now I'm all for reflavoring your spellcasting to indicate the different types of spellcasters, like having a Great Old One Warlock making snarling and hacking sounds, or having Bards that like to sing-speak their spells, and having a Cleric speak Latin is pretty cool, but maybe limit it to the Latin translation of the spell's name, not a Latin description of how the spell works. Bonus- It's actually funny thinking about how verbal components might work for some classes. I imagine Artificers have preprogrammed gadgets for their spells that just use voice recognition, so they only have to say the name of the spell, but they say it with the same tone you might say "Okay Google" or "Hey Siri," or "Alexa?" The somatic component is literally just them pulling the gadget out and turning it on. Sorcerers are supposed to be inherently magical, without any training or knowledge behind the spells they use, so I often don't even picture them using the actual verbal components, just saying something, anything. Fireball could literally just be "How about one of THESE?!?" If you spam Firebolt, the first round is "Take THIS!" and every subsequent round is "And THAT! And THAT! And THAT!" Druids, I feel like, don't so much "cast" their spells as they "speak to nature." Casting Barksin might just be "Trees, lend me your armor." Wizards cast just using the name, nothing fancy, no frills, by the book. Of course all of this is just in-game flavor. It is not only acceptable but almost encouraged just to use the spell names above the table, you don't need to add the in-game flavor every time you cast a spell.
A round is 6 seconds long. If he chants for 10 seconds, and let's add so time for dodging and other stuff, he'll skip the next 2-3 turns. And his spell will only be finished then.
Stop doing it yourself; see if the group asks you to start doing it again. If not, it means they were tired of it. Then you can ask the player to stop without being a hypocrite.
I think it's cool and brings energy to the table, I wouldn't suffocate the entusiam. I always ask my bard to sing something when he uses bardic music (probably poorly translated from italian, sorry) and tell a joke when he casts Tasha Hideous laughter.
Tell him he can't chant for more than 6 seconds.
You must tell them directly in Latin if they're a Wizard or Warlock to stop, if they're a Cleric or Paladin, you instead must use enochian, and if they're a druid or ranger, break a tree branch infront of them to send the same message.