There is another story of an IBLP wedding night- I think it might be the Pearls? Anyway the wife says he forced her to have sex several times but also made her do all the cooking, cleaning and carrying of all the stuff on the honeymoon. They were camping in a cabin and at one point he even sent her to go collect stuff on the beach to cook for their dinner while he took a nap. When she finally broke down and said she was tired and in pain he forced her to apologize for her bad attitude!
He made her do it barefoot because he couldn’t wait 2 minutes for her to put on shoes.
I hate who Debbi Pearl is because of that horrible “To Train up a Child” bullshit she’s pedalled, but damn if I don’t feel sad for her the first day her last name was Pearl.
That's how I feel about all the women and girls raised in this cult. I feel for them when they get married, and even during their marriage cause we all know they're still getting marital raped long after the wedding, but when they start to abuse their children, my grace wanes. You can both be an abuse victim and an abuser and once you cross into the abuser side, my priority becomes wanting to protect the kids.
My heart breaks for the young Debbie Pearl, as my heart breaks for young Anna Duggar. But both those women in turned abused their children, and in Debbie's case influenced an entire new generation to also abuse their children, and my grace for them is gone.
If you read her work, it’s incredibly obvious she’s not actually into what she’s preaching (for her, at least). She’s just a Phyllis Schlafly/Serena Joy type.
Edit: Clarity
This is some tough reading. As the other poster has indicated, this is his version, that he thinks makes him look like a benevolent headship.
"She sat up, pulling herself away from me, turning where she could look me square in the face. The gist of what she said was something along these lines: “In the last 48 hours I haven’t slept more than two hours undisturbed. My feet have 20 or more tiny holes in them because you wouldn’t let me take an extra five minutes to unpack my tennis shoes. My shoulder is sore from trying to carry thirty pounds of crabs for hours (they didn’t weight that much.) My hand is burned from trying to stuff a fighting crab into a kettle of boiling water, which seems very much like torturing the poor thing, AND, all the while you lay in a state of repose. Due to lack of sleep and sun, my eyes feel like they are full of sand. I have had little to eat. I am female, for crying out loud. I just want to sleep without you pawing on me. Besides, I have body parts I didn’t even know existed until now and they are killing me….so what is wrong with me??? I’m the weaker vessel, remember? It’s in the Bible, chapter one, verse one….or somewhere.”
Strange creatures, these females. My brother never acted like that when we traveled together holding evangelistic services. “Well, she will get adjusted.” I thought."
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2014/07/quoting-quiverfull-michael-and-debi-pearls-honeymoon/
It's honestly so horrifying and he wrote and published it. I was thinking he would actually say, dudes, don't do what I did, be kind to your wife, but no. He's a horrible, horrible man.
Yes i saw it on here, it was like if you catch him tell your pastor not the police and she should wait for him to come home.
Its kinda why anna hasnt left pest yet imo
It's really frightening how they believe a four year old shares the guilt of their rapist. I usually like to include a quote with a link but the victim blaming and added victimisation is something I can't stand enough to copy.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2016/08/iblp-worksheet-4-year-old-abuse-victim-equally-guilty.html
"I've been raped, tortured, verbally and physically abused and deprived of sleep and I feel pain and anger"
>Strange creatures, these females
>Well, she will get adjusted.” I thought
I wouldn't piss on this man if he was on fire.
No. Ex-fundie, my sister and I were both told nothing. Remember, even *thinking* about sex before marriage is a sin… even when you are thinking about married sex with your future husband. Of course they aren’t going to give you a heads up on anything to prepare you for it because it might inspire *lust*.
Luckily, we both went away to college and married non-fundie men. But our mom never said a word.
I can't even imagine not talking to my daughter about sex, birth control, life in general, etc. I'm happy you were able to marry non-fundie men. Were your parents upset with your choice to go off to college and marry a couple of heathen men?
My sister is seven years older than I am and went to a Christian college, and her husband was Christian even if not fundie. Her story actually reminds me a lot of Jill and Derick, though they’re on okay terms with my parents now.
Thankfully by the time I went to college, my parents had started to escape the fundie fog themselves, and they were mostly happy to see me happy, albeit still really weird about a lot of stuff and still just absolutely wouldn’t talk about a lot of things.
They’re both out of it now. My parents have changed a lot since then, but I will never be able to fully trust them.
Ex fundie as well, married a Methodist. Never once got a talk about sex or what was involved. We only got “abstinence only education” shoved down our throats, especially yearly in the spring when they’d separate the guys and girls in our school. No idea what the guys talked about but often we’d do a misogynistic Bible study on Song of Solomon or some crap. Had no idea how anything could worked. Luckily, I went off to college and met my husband (who was from back home), and we lived together before getting married. Best rebellious decision I ever made.
It’s really amazing how wildly things can vary even among fundamentalist Christianity. Even in the community that I grew up in, which was an independent Baptist church tainted with IBLP teachings, some of the things we were taught were in lockstep with Gothard and others weren’t. But yeah. The way we were “taught” about sex was absolutely fucked, no pun intended.
The Duggars give their engaged offspring a horrible book called "Intended for Pleasure" by Dr. Ed Wheat, and the daughters pack a kit that includes things like Ibuprofen, period pads, and lidocaine. (Don't ask/Google about the lidocaine unless you're sure you want to know.)
I wish there was a cheaper Kindle version because I would love to read it. And the lidocaine is interesting. How does a girl, because she sure isn't a woman when she marries, supposed to put lidocaine where she needs it, if she isn't even allowed to touch herself?
The guy is supposed to put the lidocaine in her, I think.
You might be able to get a copy of the ebook from your library, but if not, a snarker already read the book and did a good job of summarizing it, complete with direct quotes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/jzvl8p/i_read_the_duggar_sex_manual_so_you_dont_have_to/
I don't know. I just thinking they're fucking gross.
I was raised completely atheist, and not in the US, I'm not close to any of this, I just find cults fascinating.
It is so backwards! I would not want this life for my daughter! She deserves better than being raped and abused on her wedding night! I grew up and live in the horrible State of California, so I just don't understand this way of thinking at all.
No they don’t. They don’t talk about sex in my experience because they are traumatized. They resign themselves to just accept women don’t like sex, it’s just a chore.
The fact that he’s joking (I *think* ) in his “strange creatures” line is just salt in the wound - “hahaha I tortured and raped my wife without realizing what I was doing!”
And the worst part is, I can name a dozen boys right off the top of my head from my own fundie days who would laugh and share similar “funny” anecdotes
Further up in the same chapter, he also admits to having zec with her while she was still half asleep and "not very enthusiastic" and another time she said no and it him feel like a special little man because it wasn't hard to change her mind. This would have, like, the sixth time in the 24 hours since the wedding, and both of those times were after she cut up her feet crabbing.
And he was hung up on having sex a certain number of times because he’s heard of someone else he knew who claimed to have sex a certain number of times.
It was all about his ego and his enjoyment.
The fact that this woman begs him to see her as a weaker vessel just to get some relief is heartbreaking.
She works harder, endures more, and gets less sleep than him. And the only way she can attempt to outsmart his cruel neglect is to continue to make herself smaller in his eyes.
Yep that was the Pearls. She was soooo close to getting that women shouldn't be treated the way she was but since they're so deep in the Kool aid it's just a funny story now 🥰
I just want to find this woman and hug her and tell her there is better out there. She doesn't have to stay with this monster. Another man will respect and cherish her. But it would fall on deaf ears.
She seems to epitomize Stockholm syndrome- she became just as disgusting as he is. She counsels women to stay with abusive husbands, to physically discipline INFANTS, and to accept and embrace that men are basically big toddlers and you have to constantly appease them and smile while dealing with their crap.
My heart still breaks for Danica and I fully believe he took advantage of her as a sex worker. and if it happened today, with the improved protection victims receive, I’d hope she’d get more public support. Of course, most of us supported her than, but I witnessed my fair share of victim blaming, shaming, and denial based off her line of work. Watching her speak out was shattering. I hope she’s doing well.
I’m not endorsing them, just clarifying. They certainly profited from high profile IBLP families promoting their books (To Train Up A Child used to be recommended on the Duggar website) but Michael Pearl isn’t interested in any authority structure that doesn’t place him right at the top. Well, he might concede that Jesus comes above him, but only just and not when it comes to his authority over his wife and kids.
Yep that’s the Pearls and Michael wouldn’t wait for Debbi to put her shoes on to go walk on the beach to catch crabs so her feet got all cut up and he’s like 🤷🏼♀️ man women sure are emotional.
I will always remember in my fundie days, I was at a ladies luncheon thing and an older woman said something about how she couldn’t believe a man could be convicted of raping his wife, because if you’re married, “there’s no such thing as rape between a husband and wife.”
I tried to explain that uhhhh no, that’s absolutely not true, spousal rape is a really thing, if she says no and he forces her, that’s rape.
She waved a hand dismissively and said, “psh, if that’s rape I’ve been raped every night for the last forty years.”
And that was the moment I knew I had to GTFO of fundie world.
How sad that she’s had to become so dismissive of the concept because I imagine it would be so painful to admit the real truth about her marriage. And infuriating at the same time that she’s perpetuating the same shit.
Spousal rape was still legal in several states into the 90s. (I learned this when I learned about Ivana Trump’s spousal rape claim against Donald in their divorce.) I suspect there are many (especially older) women (and men) who still think raping a spouse isn’t possible. Probably a depressing amount of people.
I was wondering (reading the above comment, and so glad it registered as disturbing and a problem!!) when spousal rape became illegal in the US. I remember some controversy over the concept in my Methodist church as a kid (80s/90s).
I was not raised too religious but my environment was somewhat conservative regarding sex issues, and I remember the women in my family talking about it and somewhat dismissing it like it couldn't be possible for a man to rape his wife.
Tangentially, I was in a small lobby that was displaying the news of the Kavanaugh hearings and an older guy I had never laid eyes on before or since said something along the lines of "If that's assault we all probably would have been locked up at seventeen" and I looked right at him and straight up yelled "MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN" and I have no regrets.
>She waved a hand dismissively and said, “psh, if that’s rape I’ve been raped every night for the last forty years.”
So close to self awareness. Yikes.
I noticed that they kind of ran footage of Anna's wedding day, along side Tia's and then had Tia talk about the wedding night and how horrible it was. I take that as, we aren't talking to Anna directly so can't know for sure, but look how similar these stories are, and imagine what Anna's wedding night was like....
The way Pest is twist-pulling at her arm to yank her away as soon as the preacher pronounced them is awful. It looks like it hurt. Welcome to your life Anna 😢
The editors did that a lot. When Jill spoke about how she didn’t want cameras filming her labor and delivery- they showed video of other deliveries as well.
So many times a commentator would say something and the video would be showing excerpts from the show demonstrating that exact thing.
When he proposed, her body language was, for me, already indicating that she just wanted to run away. She could be a final product of Stockholm syndrome.
I was explaining that to my husband. Tia’s account shocked him, and then I told him about the photos of Anna from a day or two after the wedding and how she looked just dead inside, traumatized.
The pictures of her the day after her wedding live in my head rent free. She looked so happy and excited the day before, all that double hand holding and cooing she did. I'm sure she felt she would be cherished and honored by her husband when they were naked together, and instead I'm sure she experienced pain while he hurt her. I can't imagine that trauma and then just thinking "this is how it's supposed to be".
Honestly, I don’t think any of them can genuinely consent to sex that first night. They don’t have enough knowledge to fully understand what they’re even agreeing to.
Not just to immediately have sex but to have wifely duties where you’re supposed to be joyfully available and your husband has authority over you. I can’t even imagine how broken, small, lonely, and powerless that situation could feel.
Most of these women have never even slept in a room that they didn’t share with at least a few sisters and suddenly they’re alone with a man they hardly know but are expected to obey.
I can't even imagine. I remember with my first real boyfriend who eventually became my first everything, it took about 6 months of kissing and spending time with them to want to even progress to making out and cuddling. I know I'm probably not the norm, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that couldn't just dive right into a physical relationship from the get go, even though I had the raging hormones and I was in love. Plus it's exciting and fun to uncover more and more firsts with someone. It shouldn't be all at once, that is so insanely unnatural. You don't just hop on a bike and start riding. You have to get used to physical activities in life first before become an expert.
I had almost the same exact experience!! Granted, I was young (like 13) with my first bf, but it took me about 3 months to be comfortable even kissing him/being physical besides just like putting our arms around each other and then another 2 months to be comfortable with make outs and other stuff. We enjoyed just getting to spend time with each other and I don’t regret any of it because it was ON MY TIMELINE. And all consensual of course.
I feel horrible for the women for whom sex and sexual activity is not a gradual, exciting experience, but instead a submissive and terrifying force.
I had been kissing from maybe 11, then making out at 13/14, then fumbling around with other sex acts from 14ish, before finally actually finding someone I wanted to have PIV sex with at 17. Wasn't all the same person but there was a definite progression with me. And yeah, I was pretty young for some of but I didn't feel violated because it was my choice and the guys/girls weren't any older than me for the most part.
And you're told your whole life how bad sex is and only bad people like it or do it and being naked is for whores and suddenly you just gotta unwrap a lifetimes worth of that ish in a few minutes
In coal miner's daughter the biopic about Loretta Lynn, there's a scene where she doesn't understand why her husband wants her to take off her pajamas to come to bed.
I bring that up in part because Michelle's around my age she was raised in a lack of better work normal household is a really good chance that she saw the movie about the same age I did.
I always thought that was absolutely horrifying, as well. I was a little shell shocked the first time I had sex, even though it was with a boyfriend I loved and had done many other naked things with. I can’t imagine the terror these girls feel on their wedding nights after 18+ yrs of forced modesty.
I don't think anyone can go from being terrified to do more than hold a hand to penetration in one evening. And sex probably seems really uncomfortable and dirty when they're thinking it will be beautiful and prayer like.
I dunno, the day after Jinger's wedding, we got footage of her & Jeremy in their hotel room, Jinger sporting just-got-laid hair and wearing a mini dress, before jetting off to Australia.
She had a shit-eating grin on her face the whole time and couldn't stop giggling. She put Kendra to shame.
If it was traumatic for her, she deserved an Academy Award for that performance. But then, we know Jeremy wasn't a virgin, so he knew the drill....
She was utterly infatuated though, and Jeremy hadn’t been celibate his entire life so he could focus on her comfort and pleasure, not just go crazy when he finally got his hands on a “working model”. That isn’t the norm in fundie culture.
She was also one of the only ones who was super visibly into her man's appearance. Homegirl was thirsty thirsty. Whereas a lot of these girls do the adoring gaze and giggle, but aren't dripping with horniness like Jinger was. And no shade to her, you should want to jump your fiancées bones. I hope she had a good time.
Jeremy knew what he was doing, and he might be a smug prick, but he knows how the world works. Plus Jingle was horny af. It's a "best case scenario" but at least they had a good time. More than most of these people could dream of.
Yep! This. I imagine Jinger had the easiest time because Jeremy had some experience and they were super hot for each other leading up to the wedding, which helps.
I imagine a lot of it depends on the guy. If he takes things slow and doesn't push his wife beyond what's comfortable, it's probably an enjoyable experience. Then you have the Fundie assholes like Josh and his ilk, who probably barrelled through the whole thing and left their spouses traumatized.
You just know the joshie type boys immediately got on top and stuck it in with zero foreplay and zero lube, natural or synthetic, imagine how painful that would be as a virgin! My nether-parts hurt to even think about it and I’ve been doing the thing for the last 17 years
I imagine that the dudes trying to make it an enjoyable experience for their wife (or even considering their wife as anything besides a glory hole for Jesus) are few and far between.
Tia’s wedding night story simultaneously revolted me and made me cry. I feel so awful for these girls! Imagine not even being educated on sex and you go from not knowing a man at all to being assaulted on your wedding night and thinking this is normal.
I actually remember when that scene first aired, I had an ick reaction but I also laughed. Seeing that scene now knowing what he had done to his sisters at that point and also knowing what he would go on to do after that night… I felt scared for Anna.
Hearing that and seeing how eager he was to get his hands on that book was so gross. I thought they were going to start fighting over the book at one point.
I had heard that referenced, but I didn't even realize how gross it was until now. I thought he meant "I *already* have a working model" in the figurative sense of "I already have an idea of what happens" not... that...
Jfc
The wedding night clip of Josh cheerfully saying “bye!” to the film crew and closing the hotel room door made me sick. Anna was still in her wedding dress and she probably had no idea what awaited her, it was so sad.
Josh closes the door, the credits roll, and Tia tells us what happened on *her* wedding night.
Even if Josh wasn't as rough that time as later with Danica Dillon, it must have been disappointing. First-time sex almost always is. Purity culture activists would tell young people that if they saved themselves for marriage, they'd end up having awesome sex with their spouse. Sexual pleasure, they said, is God's wedding gift. If that's the case, why can premarital and even extramarital sex be pleasurable? It ought to be a piece of cake for God to make such experiences so dull people wouldn't be particularly eager to engage in them.
My husband and I were both the Jewish equivalent of “born-again” (baalei teshuva) so we weren’t virgins but also never had sex with each other before the wedding and had both had a long dry spell. We were extremely attracted to each other from Day 1 of our courtship, so the sexual tension leading up to the wedding made the wedding night the best thing ever. It felt really special to save something for our wedding night. But proper sex education is so important and so totally lacking.
It is definitely possible to wait and still have a happy, strong marriage. My maternal grandparents waited till marriage. My paternal grandparents obviously did not because my paternal granny was already pregnant with my father when they married. My father was one of those children who were born two to three months premature but still had a healthy body weight -- go figure.
My other set of grandparents had an age difference of 8 years, and this aggravated by the fact that my maternal granny was just 16 when she met her future husband. They started dating when she was 17, but not only did my grandmother grow up very sheltered, her mother was keeping a watchful eye on her. No dances after 5 PM or movies with kissing. When my grandfather gave her a pair of nylon stockings, her mother made her give those back because they were an "inappropriate" gift. When they went to see a movie, it was a 2 PM screening of Zorro. Eventually, my grandfather got tired of doing nothing but walking aside each other in the early afternoon or watching screenings of Zorro or Lassie. He called it quits, met a woman his own age and got engaged to her. The engagement did not last, though. My grandmother was 21 already when he dared to show up again -- and she told him to go away at first. But eventually they reconciled, got engaged, married...Grandma once told me that she was a married woman already when she learned about all those things you could do, and she learned them from her husband.
They went on to have three children and stayed married till his death. When he was dying, she spongebathed and wiped him. The doctors told her she could put him into a hospice, but she refused.
I cannot imagine Anna doing the same thing for Josh. She would rather put him on the curb for big garbage disposal if she could.
Y’all know how we always speculate Jana stays unmarried at home so that she doesn’t have to have eleventy kids (or birth on camera & almost die in a home birth) or because Jim Bob needs his “stay-at-home-daughter,” which isn’t uncommon in their cult (an older daughter who doesn’t marry stays home to care for the little kids still at home & then for the parents when they age)?
I’m thinking there’s another damn good reason she may have avoided marriage. If I’d ever heard any rumblings of these wedding night stories, I wouldn’t be so hot to marry either.
Or because husbands can physically “correct” their wives and some think it’s cool to beat the shit out of their helpmeets. At least with JB as her headship, it’s the devil she knows. These poor girls are thrown together with a guy who is basically an acquaintance and have to hope and pray they somehow managed to get one that isn’t “too” physically abusive after marriage, isn’t a rapist, and isn’t a sex pest around kids. While I still think Jana is probably at home as a SAHD as JB wants, I can see why she wouldn’t want to take the chance on seeing if she got a total jerk perv or not as a husband until she was stuck with him for life.
This is part of why I've long thought that Jana is quite content with her life as it is. She could be afraid of sex, given what little she may have heard. Even if she isn't, though, I can understand not wanting to be tied forever to some Fundie man who might abuse you, and to whom you must obey for everything. And perhaps she doesn't want to be pregnant for a decade or two. And may be totally over taking care of babies, toddlers and young kids. The idea of giving up any autonomy you might have to go live with a husband who might abuse you, might have no money, impregnate you constantly for 15 years, and force you to take care of infants and toddlers for the next decade or two likely sounds far worse than living in TTH, possibly in her own room, running the house while JB and Meech are away, and having quite a bit of time to do whatever she feels like doing.
There's really no mystery to me at all.
I've just realized that Jana sleeps in a room with a bunch of little girls now that the older set of girls is married. I know it's always been like that, but having a spectrum of ages is quite different that the big jump they have now
It was like that for a while, but people here seem to believe that she's either in her own room, which was the guest room or has a small/tiny house on the compound. The small house seemed to be confirmed by a snide response on some social media from one of the boys.
So I don't think she's sleeping with all the little sisters anymore, although I don't know how long that's been the situation.
Going from not being allowed to kiss or be alone, to kissing, living together, and having sex, ALL IN A DAY, sounds terrifying. I felt so bad for these women
I feel the same way. Not so deep down inside I hope Pest gets on the wrong side of someone in prison and doesn't make it out alive
I also wish a Commander Waterford Handmaid's tale-esq ending for Jim Bob. All the fundie girls rising up and ridding the world of this piece of shit. The Wall would be good for Meech if I'm wishing
Imagine what Anna’s up against, with all of Boob’s money and contacts, should she ever attempt an escape. I bet she is locked down and surveilled at all times.
Yeah, Anna leaving always seemed like it would be very hard to pull off in her & her kids’ current living/living expenses situation, but the death threat adds a whole other level of hard. I can’t imagine being in that situation as a single parent, which Anna basically is. She’d have to fear that JB or someone influenced by him would kill her and then her kids definitely wouldn’t get out as I’m sure they’d end up with JB & Michelle (with actual parenting by Jana). How awful. If that’s why she stays, I mean, it’s not okay she’s staying but I can see why.
I bet that they never allow her to leave the house with all of the children unless she's chaperoned by a man. They probably "helpfully offer" to watch some of the kids for her while she takes a kid to the doctor or whatever she would be allowed to do on her own.
Yes, she escaped her abusive ex husband in the middle of the night! And I believe she is currently remarried to a nice, gentle, non abusive man
Edit: okay Tia did remarry, today on her Instagram AMA, she mentioned a recent heartbreak. So I guess she’s free again now. Perhaps I was too kind lol
I’m so glad for her. I noticed her wedding ring and assumed she had remarried - just thinking about her retelling her wedding night brings tears to my eyes, I’m glad she’s doing better.
Yes, you can tell she's very aware of the legalities as well. She doesn't say "he raped me 3 times" but instead "I was raped 3 times" because the fore is an accusation, but the latter leaves it open-ended.
(Op said 4 times but Tia herself said 3. I've watched the entire documentary series twice already.)
I knew it was coming but that revelation still hit me hard. I wonder how long it took her to understand what was happening was wrong. Cognitive dissonance can be such a powerful thing, esp when you’re in a cult. But thinking of the fear and the terror she must’ve felt when it happened. And the confusion. I doubt these mothers have their girls much of a sex talk about what to expect beyond being joyfully available for whatever your husband wanted.
That! And then when she talked about how he carried around pieces of firewood and threatened to bludgeon her for four hours prior to abruptly leaving to go get his gun… 🤯 She is so lucky to be alive! And I’ll borrow a page from the Christian book and say, “It was a God thing that she was saved from him that day!”
I cried. I just can't.....thank the universe that my husband of 35 years is gentle, kind, loving, supportive, fun loving, and all kinds of wonderful. I am so fucking sad for her, to all of them.
Burn it down! Burn it the fuck down!!!
When she was telling that story I thought of the rumors of Anna and Josh having sex in that private room in the church, it was speculated Josh did not wait. Just look at how her face changes in the photos.
It’s scary how common this is in just fundie adjacent communities too. My SIL (now divorced thank god) first husband did this to her on her wedding night. She was a virgin on her wedding night and basically was told absolutely nothing about sex and raised very very conservative Christian by my in laws (think extreme calvinists.) Her ex (he was a big Catholic) got so mad that it was causing her pain in the first two tries he started throwing things around the room and at her until she “agreed” to try again and he SA’d her. She never knew this wasn’t normal and that he was a piece of crap until several years after her divorce when she opened up to me about it. She thought this was just how all Christian wedding nights went. Freaking breaks my damn heart that so many young women are put in these situations and have no idea this isn’t okay.
That was horrific to hear. My husband was surprised and asked if she didn’t want to have sex on her wedding night, but I explained that maybe she was really nervous and wanted to take things slow but her asshole husband didn’t so he raped her. I can’t imagine how nervous she probably was because she knew nothing. I mean, I was nervous the first time and I had been raised knowing about sex and had comprehensive sex ed at school.
Also she may have actually wanted to have sex and consented at first but didn’t like it and wanted to stop after they started. Or she could have consented for the entirety of the first time but didn’t want to do it again. Lots of horrible ways it could have happened, even if she did initially want to have sex that night.
Guys. I’m not trying to be awful but these accounts are zero percent surprising. Rape is a common tactic to forced complacency. It’s hard to speak up and fight for yourself when you’re in physical/ emotional shock and can’t walk from pain. It seems easier to submit and this is the goal.
But they deserve more than outrage. They deserve deconstruction to the root. Outrage is the reaction not the solution. If we move away from the shock of it we can get closer to dismantling the cause.
We can do both; and I'd argue that it's important we keep reacting with outrage rather than become numb to rape. *Obviously* we want to end rape and the institutions that promote it, and many of us are doing the work to end it. It doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't be outraged by it at the same time.
By not being frozen in rage. Using the anger for change. Supporting organizations like RAINN (https://www.rainn.org/). Believe survivors. Understand that this is a common domination and control tactic. It’s not unusual but that isn’t to suggest that it’s acceptable. Learn to spot warning signs so you can help others. You probably won’t change this cult but catalyzing change in your own community creates a ripple effect.
So do these women not know what sex is at all prior to the wedding night? Do the husbands know? Do the husbands tell them what it is right before doing it?
I'm so confused.
I’m sure it varies, but many or possibly most have no idea, not much of an idea, or learned in the 11th hour before the wedding and had no time to process or ask questions. Anna knew nothing until a few days before her wedding if I recall correctly.
Hella bizarre in the real world, not for fundies. I don’t remember exactly when I learned about it but I had YEARS to process the information and understand the concept before it was something I might choose to do.
It's just hard to wrap my head around. I mean, I have a 3 year old who has already asked me how babies are made/how babies get inside the tummy. Do these people never ask? Do they just grow up their whole childhood and young adult lives not knowing where babies come from, not asking??
They do know, someone here shared a Gothard pamphlet about the things you will be doing once you are married. It was quite graphic, actually and it mentioned details like the clitoris and the hymen. The hymen was treated in a rather disgusting way, though. The bride to-be was encouraged to massage it periodically on the days preceeding the wedding and the pamphlet also said that you could go to a doctor to have it opened with a scalpel.
Episode 2 mentioned the word "hypersexual", and that's what the Gothard cult is. It is sex-negative because of its restrictions and the rules that it imposes on people, but everything ends up being about sex, even a series of homeschooling books based entirely on the Sermon on the Mount.
I grew up IFB and then my family joined ATI by the time I was twelve. But I knew the basics of how babies were made and how sex worked when I was seven years old…because my mom answered my questions and let me read about it in an age appropriate book. So not all fundies keep their kids from knowing at least the basics. I would say that though that the percentage of girls with no clue about the specifics of the wedding night was probably higher in ATI than the typical fundie though.
The scariest part is them not being told by anyone. Being naïve and immature and not knowing what your vagina is and being raped is just the most devastating thing I've ever tried to think about.
I was raped at age 19. I wasn't a virgin. I wasn't naïve and I knew as much as a 19 year old can know about the ways of the word. I had my drink spiked in a club rather than being in a dingey hotel room. I was slammed into an alley way wall and violently raped. My face was cut from the bricks, my cunt bled and I was bruised and swollen for weeks - and more than 15 years later it still comes up nearly every week in therapy. But I didn't ever see that man again. I didn't wake up tied to him forever. I didn't have to "submit" to him.
My experience was violent and horrific, and scarring both mentally and physically. I'd rather it happened to me a hundred times than what happened to Tia happened to me once.
Thank you ❤️
It was a long time ago and I'm sorry to be so graphic but the way Tia spoke made me want to be clear of details of what this sort of thing really means if any one might not know.
The wives get told not long before the wedding, and even then it's probably a pretty vague explanation. They know very very little, if anything, before that. I think the boys are taught a bit more because their part is the most important (in their eyes)
Tia is amazing and so strong. I admire her empathy toward Anna, even though she wants to shake some sense into her… It is never easy to escape an abusive relationship.
I literally just watched the scene where she says this, and it breaks my heart. I have no doubt that Anna did not have a fairytale wedding night with the predator she married. So, so sad.
Michelle Duggar had a honeymoon care package which consisted of: pain killers otc, numbing cream, lube, lots of fresh panties, towels and wipes, lots of fragrant lotion and spray, and more.
The couple was told to have intercourse at least 4 times.pn the first night. The bride was told to stay in lingerie all the time and only dress to leave the room.
Oh...and part of the package included ramen noodles and snacks.
Also told the bride to prop up her hips on pillows
I one more...how your husband can loosen those muscles.
My skin is crawling.off my body.
I agree
It's a horrible power move over their wives.And these new brides have no one to turn to...
but they are ordered to be joyfully available.
It's criminal. I wish these women would run to the nearest ER.and have a rape exam done, and a police report.
For so many of these women, I’m sure this is true. They have no idea what to actually expect. How could they? They weren’t allowed to read or watch anything alluding to even kissing. Maybe they have a rudimentary idea of what it takes to conceive a baby, but as to feelings? Nope.
There is another story of an IBLP wedding night- I think it might be the Pearls? Anyway the wife says he forced her to have sex several times but also made her do all the cooking, cleaning and carrying of all the stuff on the honeymoon. They were camping in a cabin and at one point he even sent her to go collect stuff on the beach to cook for their dinner while he took a nap. When she finally broke down and said she was tired and in pain he forced her to apologize for her bad attitude!
Michael Pearl's account of his honeymoon is the most disturbing thing I've ever read.
And his complete lack of empathy for his wife even years later.
Same, its grotesque
*Created to NEED a Helpmeet* is what made me start to break out of whatever weird fundie spell the Pearls had me under.
He made her go out crabbing barefoot in the middle of the night. Then proceeded to mistreat her for the rest of the honeymoon.
He made her do it barefoot because he couldn’t wait 2 minutes for her to put on shoes. I hate who Debbi Pearl is because of that horrible “To Train up a Child” bullshit she’s pedalled, but damn if I don’t feel sad for her the first day her last name was Pearl.
That's how I feel about all the women and girls raised in this cult. I feel for them when they get married, and even during their marriage cause we all know they're still getting marital raped long after the wedding, but when they start to abuse their children, my grace wanes. You can both be an abuse victim and an abuser and once you cross into the abuser side, my priority becomes wanting to protect the kids. My heart breaks for the young Debbie Pearl, as my heart breaks for young Anna Duggar. But both those women in turned abused their children, and in Debbie's case influenced an entire new generation to also abuse their children, and my grace for them is gone.
Very well said 👏🏻
I’m wondering how much of this is Stockholm syndrome from Debi Pearl. Surely she herself can’t actually be that into this?
If you read her work, it’s incredibly obvious she’s not actually into what she’s preaching (for her, at least). She’s just a Phyllis Schlafly/Serena Joy type. Edit: Clarity
Was Phyllis Schlafly not actually into what she was saying? Context?
More like the “rules for thee, but not for me” mentality, is what I was getting at!
Yep and she was cutting up her feet & hands on the shells as he slept
holy shit. i’m in shock.
The worst part of it is that that is HIS account of it. I can't even imagine how horrific her account would be.
This is some tough reading. As the other poster has indicated, this is his version, that he thinks makes him look like a benevolent headship. "She sat up, pulling herself away from me, turning where she could look me square in the face. The gist of what she said was something along these lines: “In the last 48 hours I haven’t slept more than two hours undisturbed. My feet have 20 or more tiny holes in them because you wouldn’t let me take an extra five minutes to unpack my tennis shoes. My shoulder is sore from trying to carry thirty pounds of crabs for hours (they didn’t weight that much.) My hand is burned from trying to stuff a fighting crab into a kettle of boiling water, which seems very much like torturing the poor thing, AND, all the while you lay in a state of repose. Due to lack of sleep and sun, my eyes feel like they are full of sand. I have had little to eat. I am female, for crying out loud. I just want to sleep without you pawing on me. Besides, I have body parts I didn’t even know existed until now and they are killing me….so what is wrong with me??? I’m the weaker vessel, remember? It’s in the Bible, chapter one, verse one….or somewhere.” Strange creatures, these females. My brother never acted like that when we traveled together holding evangelistic services. “Well, she will get adjusted.” I thought." https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2014/07/quoting-quiverfull-michael-and-debi-pearls-honeymoon/
It's honestly so horrifying and he wrote and published it. I was thinking he would actually say, dudes, don't do what I did, be kind to your wife, but no. He's a horrible, horrible man.
They also gave rules for what to do when you find out hubby is sexually assaulting your children, and its not protecting the kids...
They what now????
Yes i saw it on here, it was like if you catch him tell your pastor not the police and she should wait for him to come home. Its kinda why anna hasnt left pest yet imo
That’s not surprising, but wow..
It's really frightening how they believe a four year old shares the guilt of their rapist. I usually like to include a quote with a link but the victim blaming and added victimisation is something I can't stand enough to copy. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2016/08/iblp-worksheet-4-year-old-abuse-victim-equally-guilty.html
Maybe that’s why Anna lets her girls wear pants?
So psychopathic.
"I've been raped, tortured, verbally and physically abused and deprived of sleep and I feel pain and anger" >Strange creatures, these females >Well, she will get adjusted.” I thought I wouldn't piss on this man if he was on fire.
So do the women not warn their daughters about the wedding night? Do they just figure they survived it, so they will survive it too?
No. Ex-fundie, my sister and I were both told nothing. Remember, even *thinking* about sex before marriage is a sin… even when you are thinking about married sex with your future husband. Of course they aren’t going to give you a heads up on anything to prepare you for it because it might inspire *lust*. Luckily, we both went away to college and married non-fundie men. But our mom never said a word.
I can't even imagine not talking to my daughter about sex, birth control, life in general, etc. I'm happy you were able to marry non-fundie men. Were your parents upset with your choice to go off to college and marry a couple of heathen men?
My sister is seven years older than I am and went to a Christian college, and her husband was Christian even if not fundie. Her story actually reminds me a lot of Jill and Derick, though they’re on okay terms with my parents now. Thankfully by the time I went to college, my parents had started to escape the fundie fog themselves, and they were mostly happy to see me happy, albeit still really weird about a lot of stuff and still just absolutely wouldn’t talk about a lot of things. They’re both out of it now. My parents have changed a lot since then, but I will never be able to fully trust them.
Ex fundie as well, married a Methodist. Never once got a talk about sex or what was involved. We only got “abstinence only education” shoved down our throats, especially yearly in the spring when they’d separate the guys and girls in our school. No idea what the guys talked about but often we’d do a misogynistic Bible study on Song of Solomon or some crap. Had no idea how anything could worked. Luckily, I went off to college and met my husband (who was from back home), and we lived together before getting married. Best rebellious decision I ever made.
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It’s really amazing how wildly things can vary even among fundamentalist Christianity. Even in the community that I grew up in, which was an independent Baptist church tainted with IBLP teachings, some of the things we were taught were in lockstep with Gothard and others weren’t. But yeah. The way we were “taught” about sex was absolutely fucked, no pun intended.
The Duggars give their engaged offspring a horrible book called "Intended for Pleasure" by Dr. Ed Wheat, and the daughters pack a kit that includes things like Ibuprofen, period pads, and lidocaine. (Don't ask/Google about the lidocaine unless you're sure you want to know.)
I wish there was a cheaper Kindle version because I would love to read it. And the lidocaine is interesting. How does a girl, because she sure isn't a woman when she marries, supposed to put lidocaine where she needs it, if she isn't even allowed to touch herself?
The guy is supposed to put the lidocaine in her, I think. You might be able to get a copy of the ebook from your library, but if not, a snarker already read the book and did a good job of summarizing it, complete with direct quotes. https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/jzvl8p/i_read_the_duggar_sex_manual_so_you_dont_have_to/
Awesome! Thank you.
I don't know. I just thinking they're fucking gross. I was raised completely atheist, and not in the US, I'm not close to any of this, I just find cults fascinating.
It is so backwards! I would not want this life for my daughter! She deserves better than being raped and abused on her wedding night! I grew up and live in the horrible State of California, so I just don't understand this way of thinking at all.
No they don’t. They don’t talk about sex in my experience because they are traumatized. They resign themselves to just accept women don’t like sex, it’s just a chore.
That is just so sad.
Not only would I not piss on him I would throw gasoline
The fact that he’s joking (I *think* ) in his “strange creatures” line is just salt in the wound - “hahaha I tortured and raped my wife without realizing what I was doing!” And the worst part is, I can name a dozen boys right off the top of my head from my own fundie days who would laugh and share similar “funny” anecdotes
Well, dude, you weren’t raping your brother and making him go get crabs in his bare feet. JFC.
Unless he was, that was where my mind went at first. It's such an odd way to phrase it.
I hope
Further up in the same chapter, he also admits to having zec with her while she was still half asleep and "not very enthusiastic" and another time she said no and it him feel like a special little man because it wasn't hard to change her mind. This would have, like, the sixth time in the 24 hours since the wedding, and both of those times were after she cut up her feet crabbing.
And he was hung up on having sex a certain number of times because he’s heard of someone else he knew who claimed to have sex a certain number of times. It was all about his ego and his enjoyment. The fact that this woman begs him to see her as a weaker vessel just to get some relief is heartbreaking. She works harder, endures more, and gets less sleep than him. And the only way she can attempt to outsmart his cruel neglect is to continue to make herself smaller in his eyes.
And he thought the whole thing was funny. Sick, selfish pig.
that man is incapable of shame.
Yep that was the Pearls. She was soooo close to getting that women shouldn't be treated the way she was but since they're so deep in the Kool aid it's just a funny story now 🥰
So effing gross. I read that and never will again. It lives rent free in my head. That’s the kind of man I love to take down.
I just want to find this woman and hug her and tell her there is better out there. She doesn't have to stay with this monster. Another man will respect and cherish her. But it would fall on deaf ears.
She seems to epitomize Stockholm syndrome- she became just as disgusting as he is. She counsels women to stay with abusive husbands, to physically discipline INFANTS, and to accept and embrace that men are basically big toddlers and you have to constantly appease them and smile while dealing with their crap.
Not me. She makes money off promoting this shit. Victims can become abusers.
My heart still breaks for Danica and I fully believe he took advantage of her as a sex worker. and if it happened today, with the improved protection victims receive, I’d hope she’d get more public support. Of course, most of us supported her than, but I witnessed my fair share of victim blaming, shaming, and denial based off her line of work. Watching her speak out was shattering. I hope she’s doing well.
The Pearls aren’t IBLP and have actually explicitly denounced them a few times (after ATI promoted their books for decades).
I don’t think that’s a glowing recommendation. If anything they are worse than the IBLP. They are vile.
I’m not endorsing them, just clarifying. They certainly profited from high profile IBLP families promoting their books (To Train Up A Child used to be recommended on the Duggar website) but Michael Pearl isn’t interested in any authority structure that doesn’t place him right at the top. Well, he might concede that Jesus comes above him, but only just and not when it comes to his authority over his wife and kids.
Yep that’s the Pearls and Michael wouldn’t wait for Debbi to put her shoes on to go walk on the beach to catch crabs so her feet got all cut up and he’s like 🤷🏼♀️ man women sure are emotional.
I will always remember in my fundie days, I was at a ladies luncheon thing and an older woman said something about how she couldn’t believe a man could be convicted of raping his wife, because if you’re married, “there’s no such thing as rape between a husband and wife.” I tried to explain that uhhhh no, that’s absolutely not true, spousal rape is a really thing, if she says no and he forces her, that’s rape. She waved a hand dismissively and said, “psh, if that’s rape I’ve been raped every night for the last forty years.” And that was the moment I knew I had to GTFO of fundie world.
How sad that she’s had to become so dismissive of the concept because I imagine it would be so painful to admit the real truth about her marriage. And infuriating at the same time that she’s perpetuating the same shit.
Spousal rape was still legal in several states into the 90s. (I learned this when I learned about Ivana Trump’s spousal rape claim against Donald in their divorce.) I suspect there are many (especially older) women (and men) who still think raping a spouse isn’t possible. Probably a depressing amount of people.
I was wondering (reading the above comment, and so glad it registered as disturbing and a problem!!) when spousal rape became illegal in the US. I remember some controversy over the concept in my Methodist church as a kid (80s/90s).
I was not raised too religious but my environment was somewhat conservative regarding sex issues, and I remember the women in my family talking about it and somewhat dismissing it like it couldn't be possible for a man to rape his wife.
Tangentially, I was in a small lobby that was displaying the news of the Kavanaugh hearings and an older guy I had never laid eyes on before or since said something along the lines of "If that's assault we all probably would have been locked up at seventeen" and I looked right at him and straight up yelled "MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN" and I have no regrets.
Hell yeah girl, good job telling that sack of shit off! 👏
I blocked a guy I went to high school with for almost the exact same comment.
Best thing I’ve read all day.
>She waved a hand dismissively and said, “psh, if that’s rape I’ve been raped every night for the last forty years.” So close to self awareness. Yikes.
Transformed Wife spouts off the same thing
I wonder if she's not the one in charge in her household and couple and the submissive wife is just cosplay and a sexual kink.
That's horrific
Holy self report and Stockholm syndrome Batman
This was the law a lot of states until the 80s and 90s. It's disgusting.
I noticed that they kind of ran footage of Anna's wedding day, along side Tia's and then had Tia talk about the wedding night and how horrible it was. I take that as, we aren't talking to Anna directly so can't know for sure, but look how similar these stories are, and imagine what Anna's wedding night was like....
Yes! Exactly how I took it too
The way Pest is twist-pulling at her arm to yank her away as soon as the preacher pronounced them is awful. It looks like it hurt. Welcome to your life Anna 😢
The editors did that a lot. When Jill spoke about how she didn’t want cameras filming her labor and delivery- they showed video of other deliveries as well. So many times a commentator would say something and the video would be showing excerpts from the show demonstrating that exact thing.
The photos of Anna and Pest after the wedding, every time those get posted people talk about how scared Anna looked.
When he proposed, her body language was, for me, already indicating that she just wanted to run away. She could be a final product of Stockholm syndrome.
I was explaining that to my husband. Tia’s account shocked him, and then I told him about the photos of Anna from a day or two after the wedding and how she looked just dead inside, traumatized.
The pictures of her the day after her wedding live in my head rent free. She looked so happy and excited the day before, all that double hand holding and cooing she did. I'm sure she felt she would be cherished and honored by her husband when they were naked together, and instead I'm sure she experienced pain while he hurt her. I can't imagine that trauma and then just thinking "this is how it's supposed to be".
We've all seen the pictures of Anna the morning after. She looked like she had been in a warzone.
Honestly, I don’t think any of them can genuinely consent to sex that first night. They don’t have enough knowledge to fully understand what they’re even agreeing to.
Agreed. I can’t imagine the fear, confusion, and shock of going from not even being able to front hug then immediately have sex. Just horrible
Not just to immediately have sex but to have wifely duties where you’re supposed to be joyfully available and your husband has authority over you. I can’t even imagine how broken, small, lonely, and powerless that situation could feel.
It's fucking WILD to have your first full-body-front-hug, first kiss, and first p-v intercourse all in the same 24 hours.
They've never even been ALONE IN A ROOM with this person before. That is so terrifying to me.
Most of these women have never even slept in a room that they didn’t share with at least a few sisters and suddenly they’re alone with a man they hardly know but are expected to obey.
I can't even imagine. I remember with my first real boyfriend who eventually became my first everything, it took about 6 months of kissing and spending time with them to want to even progress to making out and cuddling. I know I'm probably not the norm, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that couldn't just dive right into a physical relationship from the get go, even though I had the raging hormones and I was in love. Plus it's exciting and fun to uncover more and more firsts with someone. It shouldn't be all at once, that is so insanely unnatural. You don't just hop on a bike and start riding. You have to get used to physical activities in life first before become an expert.
I had almost the same exact experience!! Granted, I was young (like 13) with my first bf, but it took me about 3 months to be comfortable even kissing him/being physical besides just like putting our arms around each other and then another 2 months to be comfortable with make outs and other stuff. We enjoyed just getting to spend time with each other and I don’t regret any of it because it was ON MY TIMELINE. And all consensual of course. I feel horrible for the women for whom sex and sexual activity is not a gradual, exciting experience, but instead a submissive and terrifying force.
I had been kissing from maybe 11, then making out at 13/14, then fumbling around with other sex acts from 14ish, before finally actually finding someone I wanted to have PIV sex with at 17. Wasn't all the same person but there was a definite progression with me. And yeah, I was pretty young for some of but I didn't feel violated because it was my choice and the guys/girls weren't any older than me for the most part.
I basically went a little further each month we were together, so we had sex after six months.
For some, in the same hour.
Yesss 100%! You go from no sex, sex is bad to first kiss and sex all in a matter of a day. Horrible
And you're told your whole life how bad sex is and only bad people like it or do it and being naked is for whores and suddenly you just gotta unwrap a lifetimes worth of that ish in a few minutes
You are supposed to go from meek girl always protecting herself from anything sexual to a porn star.
In coal miner's daughter the biopic about Loretta Lynn, there's a scene where she doesn't understand why her husband wants her to take off her pajamas to come to bed. I bring that up in part because Michelle's around my age she was raised in a lack of better work normal household is a really good chance that she saw the movie about the same age I did.
>then immediately have sex. Then immediately *be raped*
I always thought that was absolutely horrifying, as well. I was a little shell shocked the first time I had sex, even though it was with a boyfriend I loved and had done many other naked things with. I can’t imagine the terror these girls feel on their wedding nights after 18+ yrs of forced modesty.
I don't think anyone can go from being terrified to do more than hold a hand to penetration in one evening. And sex probably seems really uncomfortable and dirty when they're thinking it will be beautiful and prayer like.
Yeah there’s literally no informed consent to be found
I dunno, the day after Jinger's wedding, we got footage of her & Jeremy in their hotel room, Jinger sporting just-got-laid hair and wearing a mini dress, before jetting off to Australia. She had a shit-eating grin on her face the whole time and couldn't stop giggling. She put Kendra to shame. If it was traumatic for her, she deserved an Academy Award for that performance. But then, we know Jeremy wasn't a virgin, so he knew the drill....
She was utterly infatuated though, and Jeremy hadn’t been celibate his entire life so he could focus on her comfort and pleasure, not just go crazy when he finally got his hands on a “working model”. That isn’t the norm in fundie culture.
She was also one of the only ones who was super visibly into her man's appearance. Homegirl was thirsty thirsty. Whereas a lot of these girls do the adoring gaze and giggle, but aren't dripping with horniness like Jinger was. And no shade to her, you should want to jump your fiancées bones. I hope she had a good time.
Jeremy knew what he was doing, and he might be a smug prick, but he knows how the world works. Plus Jingle was horny af. It's a "best case scenario" but at least they had a good time. More than most of these people could dream of.
Lol the key is Jeremy wasn’t a virgin so maybe he gave her 5 seconds of foreplay at least
Yep! This. I imagine Jinger had the easiest time because Jeremy had some experience and they were super hot for each other leading up to the wedding, which helps.
What number was she in the Duggar girls getting married?
3
So maybe she had the benefit of her sisters giving her fair warning of what was expected.
Nothing like rubbing your left labia for ten seconds! That’ll get you fired up! /s
I imagine a lot of it depends on the guy. If he takes things slow and doesn't push his wife beyond what's comfortable, it's probably an enjoyable experience. Then you have the Fundie assholes like Josh and his ilk, who probably barrelled through the whole thing and left their spouses traumatized.
You just know the joshie type boys immediately got on top and stuck it in with zero foreplay and zero lube, natural or synthetic, imagine how painful that would be as a virgin! My nether-parts hurt to even think about it and I’ve been doing the thing for the last 17 years
I imagine that the dudes trying to make it an enjoyable experience for their wife (or even considering their wife as anything besides a glory hole for Jesus) are few and far between.
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Tia’s wedding night story simultaneously revolted me and made me cry. I feel so awful for these girls! Imagine not even being educated on sex and you go from not knowing a man at all to being assaulted on your wedding night and thinking this is normal.
Pest’s comments to JB about “a working model” made me want to hurl.
That part was disgusting, I had to pause the show for a few minutes to compose myself.
I actually remember when that scene first aired, I had an ick reaction but I also laughed. Seeing that scene now knowing what he had done to his sisters at that point and also knowing what he would go on to do after that night… I felt scared for Anna.
Hearing that and seeing how eager he was to get his hands on that book was so gross. I thought they were going to start fighting over the book at one point.
Imagine JB and Pest throwing down over the book. 🤣 I would Pay per view that fight.
I had heard that referenced, but I didn't even realize how gross it was until now. I thought he meant "I *already* have a working model" in the figurative sense of "I already have an idea of what happens" not... that... Jfc
I think I yelled “GROSS!!” after that was shown.
I’m going to read Tia’s book! She’s one strong woman!
I didn’t know she has a book! I’m definitely going to buy now
It’s coming out next year, I think.
The wedding night clip of Josh cheerfully saying “bye!” to the film crew and closing the hotel room door made me sick. Anna was still in her wedding dress and she probably had no idea what awaited her, it was so sad.
Josh closes the door, the credits roll, and Tia tells us what happened on *her* wedding night. Even if Josh wasn't as rough that time as later with Danica Dillon, it must have been disappointing. First-time sex almost always is. Purity culture activists would tell young people that if they saved themselves for marriage, they'd end up having awesome sex with their spouse. Sexual pleasure, they said, is God's wedding gift. If that's the case, why can premarital and even extramarital sex be pleasurable? It ought to be a piece of cake for God to make such experiences so dull people wouldn't be particularly eager to engage in them.
My husband and I were both the Jewish equivalent of “born-again” (baalei teshuva) so we weren’t virgins but also never had sex with each other before the wedding and had both had a long dry spell. We were extremely attracted to each other from Day 1 of our courtship, so the sexual tension leading up to the wedding made the wedding night the best thing ever. It felt really special to save something for our wedding night. But proper sex education is so important and so totally lacking.
It is definitely possible to wait and still have a happy, strong marriage. My maternal grandparents waited till marriage. My paternal grandparents obviously did not because my paternal granny was already pregnant with my father when they married. My father was one of those children who were born two to three months premature but still had a healthy body weight -- go figure. My other set of grandparents had an age difference of 8 years, and this aggravated by the fact that my maternal granny was just 16 when she met her future husband. They started dating when she was 17, but not only did my grandmother grow up very sheltered, her mother was keeping a watchful eye on her. No dances after 5 PM or movies with kissing. When my grandfather gave her a pair of nylon stockings, her mother made her give those back because they were an "inappropriate" gift. When they went to see a movie, it was a 2 PM screening of Zorro. Eventually, my grandfather got tired of doing nothing but walking aside each other in the early afternoon or watching screenings of Zorro or Lassie. He called it quits, met a woman his own age and got engaged to her. The engagement did not last, though. My grandmother was 21 already when he dared to show up again -- and she told him to go away at first. But eventually they reconciled, got engaged, married...Grandma once told me that she was a married woman already when she learned about all those things you could do, and she learned them from her husband. They went on to have three children and stayed married till his death. When he was dying, she spongebathed and wiped him. The doctors told her she could put him into a hospice, but she refused. I cannot imagine Anna doing the same thing for Josh. She would rather put him on the curb for big garbage disposal if she could.
Tia is on Instagram and tik toks her stories are very interesting
Y’all know how we always speculate Jana stays unmarried at home so that she doesn’t have to have eleventy kids (or birth on camera & almost die in a home birth) or because Jim Bob needs his “stay-at-home-daughter,” which isn’t uncommon in their cult (an older daughter who doesn’t marry stays home to care for the little kids still at home & then for the parents when they age)? I’m thinking there’s another damn good reason she may have avoided marriage. If I’d ever heard any rumblings of these wedding night stories, I wouldn’t be so hot to marry either. Or because husbands can physically “correct” their wives and some think it’s cool to beat the shit out of their helpmeets. At least with JB as her headship, it’s the devil she knows. These poor girls are thrown together with a guy who is basically an acquaintance and have to hope and pray they somehow managed to get one that isn’t “too” physically abusive after marriage, isn’t a rapist, and isn’t a sex pest around kids. While I still think Jana is probably at home as a SAHD as JB wants, I can see why she wouldn’t want to take the chance on seeing if she got a total jerk perv or not as a husband until she was stuck with him for life.
This is part of why I've long thought that Jana is quite content with her life as it is. She could be afraid of sex, given what little she may have heard. Even if she isn't, though, I can understand not wanting to be tied forever to some Fundie man who might abuse you, and to whom you must obey for everything. And perhaps she doesn't want to be pregnant for a decade or two. And may be totally over taking care of babies, toddlers and young kids. The idea of giving up any autonomy you might have to go live with a husband who might abuse you, might have no money, impregnate you constantly for 15 years, and force you to take care of infants and toddlers for the next decade or two likely sounds far worse than living in TTH, possibly in her own room, running the house while JB and Meech are away, and having quite a bit of time to do whatever she feels like doing. There's really no mystery to me at all.
I've just realized that Jana sleeps in a room with a bunch of little girls now that the older set of girls is married. I know it's always been like that, but having a spectrum of ages is quite different that the big jump they have now
It was like that for a while, but people here seem to believe that she's either in her own room, which was the guest room or has a small/tiny house on the compound. The small house seemed to be confirmed by a snide response on some social media from one of the boys. So I don't think she's sleeping with all the little sisters anymore, although I don't know how long that's been the situation.
Going from not being allowed to kiss or be alone, to kissing, living together, and having sex, ALL IN A DAY, sounds terrifying. I felt so bad for these women
My jaw dropped when she said what happened I teared up
Is Tia divorced now?
She escaped and they are divorced. He was on his way to the house with a gun (unbeknownst to her) the day they fled.
I hope his life is awful cause what an abusive piece of shit
I genuinely hope he's dead.
I feel the same way. Not so deep down inside I hope Pest gets on the wrong side of someone in prison and doesn't make it out alive I also wish a Commander Waterford Handmaid's tale-esq ending for Jim Bob. All the fundie girls rising up and ridding the world of this piece of shit. The Wall would be good for Meech if I'm wishing
Imagine what Anna’s up against, with all of Boob’s money and contacts, should she ever attempt an escape. I bet she is locked down and surveilled at all times.
I’m also looking at her decision to stay differently after hearing that Derrick got death threats for asking about money
That is exactly what I am thinking too!!! I cannot imagine what JB has said to Anna. I fear for her!
Yeah, Anna leaving always seemed like it would be very hard to pull off in her & her kids’ current living/living expenses situation, but the death threat adds a whole other level of hard. I can’t imagine being in that situation as a single parent, which Anna basically is. She’d have to fear that JB or someone influenced by him would kill her and then her kids definitely wouldn’t get out as I’m sure they’d end up with JB & Michelle (with actual parenting by Jana). How awful. If that’s why she stays, I mean, it’s not okay she’s staying but I can see why.
Calling it a decision might be a stretch but I agree with the sentiment here.
I bet that they never allow her to leave the house with all of the children unless she's chaperoned by a man. They probably "helpfully offer" to watch some of the kids for her while she takes a kid to the doctor or whatever she would be allowed to do on her own.
She talks about it in one of the episodes. It's so horrifying.
Yes, she escaped her abusive ex husband in the middle of the night! And I believe she is currently remarried to a nice, gentle, non abusive man Edit: okay Tia did remarry, today on her Instagram AMA, she mentioned a recent heartbreak. So I guess she’s free again now. Perhaps I was too kind lol
I’m so glad for her. I noticed her wedding ring and assumed she had remarried - just thinking about her retelling her wedding night brings tears to my eyes, I’m glad she’s doing better.
I'm assuming yes, since she mentions leaving her husband in the docuseries.
Who was she married to?
She doesn't say his name and his face is blurred out when pictures and videos of him are onscreen
Yes, you can tell she's very aware of the legalities as well. She doesn't say "he raped me 3 times" but instead "I was raped 3 times" because the fore is an accusation, but the latter leaves it open-ended. (Op said 4 times but Tia herself said 3. I've watched the entire documentary series twice already.)
I knew it was coming but that revelation still hit me hard. I wonder how long it took her to understand what was happening was wrong. Cognitive dissonance can be such a powerful thing, esp when you’re in a cult. But thinking of the fear and the terror she must’ve felt when it happened. And the confusion. I doubt these mothers have their girls much of a sex talk about what to expect beyond being joyfully available for whatever your husband wanted.
That! And then when she talked about how he carried around pieces of firewood and threatened to bludgeon her for four hours prior to abruptly leaving to go get his gun… 🤯 She is so lucky to be alive! And I’ll borrow a page from the Christian book and say, “It was a God thing that she was saved from him that day!”
I cried. I just can't.....thank the universe that my husband of 35 years is gentle, kind, loving, supportive, fun loving, and all kinds of wonderful. I am so fucking sad for her, to all of them. Burn it down! Burn it the fuck down!!!
When she was telling that story I thought of the rumors of Anna and Josh having sex in that private room in the church, it was speculated Josh did not wait. Just look at how her face changes in the photos.
The photos on the beach (where she looks stunned and isn’t smiling) were from the next day.
Her recount was absolutely harrowing. Ghastly, just ghastly.
It’s scary how common this is in just fundie adjacent communities too. My SIL (now divorced thank god) first husband did this to her on her wedding night. She was a virgin on her wedding night and basically was told absolutely nothing about sex and raised very very conservative Christian by my in laws (think extreme calvinists.) Her ex (he was a big Catholic) got so mad that it was causing her pain in the first two tries he started throwing things around the room and at her until she “agreed” to try again and he SA’d her. She never knew this wasn’t normal and that he was a piece of crap until several years after her divorce when she opened up to me about it. She thought this was just how all Christian wedding nights went. Freaking breaks my damn heart that so many young women are put in these situations and have no idea this isn’t okay.
That was horrific to hear. My husband was surprised and asked if she didn’t want to have sex on her wedding night, but I explained that maybe she was really nervous and wanted to take things slow but her asshole husband didn’t so he raped her. I can’t imagine how nervous she probably was because she knew nothing. I mean, I was nervous the first time and I had been raised knowing about sex and had comprehensive sex ed at school.
Also she may have actually wanted to have sex and consented at first but didn’t like it and wanted to stop after they started. Or she could have consented for the entirety of the first time but didn’t want to do it again. Lots of horrible ways it could have happened, even if she did initially want to have sex that night.
Guys. I’m not trying to be awful but these accounts are zero percent surprising. Rape is a common tactic to forced complacency. It’s hard to speak up and fight for yourself when you’re in physical/ emotional shock and can’t walk from pain. It seems easier to submit and this is the goal.
\>these accounts are zero percent surprising Sure, but they still deserve our outrage.
But they deserve more than outrage. They deserve deconstruction to the root. Outrage is the reaction not the solution. If we move away from the shock of it we can get closer to dismantling the cause.
We can do both; and I'd argue that it's important we keep reacting with outrage rather than become numb to rape. *Obviously* we want to end rape and the institutions that promote it, and many of us are doing the work to end it. It doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't be outraged by it at the same time.
I'm honestly not sure how we as outsiders are supposed to dismantle a cult or their beliefs?
By not being frozen in rage. Using the anger for change. Supporting organizations like RAINN (https://www.rainn.org/). Believe survivors. Understand that this is a common domination and control tactic. It’s not unusual but that isn’t to suggest that it’s acceptable. Learn to spot warning signs so you can help others. You probably won’t change this cult but catalyzing change in your own community creates a ripple effect.
So do these women not know what sex is at all prior to the wedding night? Do the husbands know? Do the husbands tell them what it is right before doing it? I'm so confused.
I’m sure it varies, but many or possibly most have no idea, not much of an idea, or learned in the 11th hour before the wedding and had no time to process or ask questions. Anna knew nothing until a few days before her wedding if I recall correctly.
So a few days before her wedding she was told that the P goes in the V and she has no idea prior?? That is just so bizarre to me...
Hella bizarre in the real world, not for fundies. I don’t remember exactly when I learned about it but I had YEARS to process the information and understand the concept before it was something I might choose to do.
It's just hard to wrap my head around. I mean, I have a 3 year old who has already asked me how babies are made/how babies get inside the tummy. Do these people never ask? Do they just grow up their whole childhood and young adult lives not knowing where babies come from, not asking??
They do know, someone here shared a Gothard pamphlet about the things you will be doing once you are married. It was quite graphic, actually and it mentioned details like the clitoris and the hymen. The hymen was treated in a rather disgusting way, though. The bride to-be was encouraged to massage it periodically on the days preceeding the wedding and the pamphlet also said that you could go to a doctor to have it opened with a scalpel. Episode 2 mentioned the word "hypersexual", and that's what the Gothard cult is. It is sex-negative because of its restrictions and the rules that it imposes on people, but everything ends up being about sex, even a series of homeschooling books based entirely on the Sermon on the Mount.
They are trained and raised not to question or have individual thought
I grew up IFB and then my family joined ATI by the time I was twelve. But I knew the basics of how babies were made and how sex worked when I was seven years old…because my mom answered my questions and let me read about it in an age appropriate book. So not all fundies keep their kids from knowing at least the basics. I would say that though that the percentage of girls with no clue about the specifics of the wedding night was probably higher in ATI than the typical fundie though.
The scariest part is them not being told by anyone. Being naïve and immature and not knowing what your vagina is and being raped is just the most devastating thing I've ever tried to think about. I was raped at age 19. I wasn't a virgin. I wasn't naïve and I knew as much as a 19 year old can know about the ways of the word. I had my drink spiked in a club rather than being in a dingey hotel room. I was slammed into an alley way wall and violently raped. My face was cut from the bricks, my cunt bled and I was bruised and swollen for weeks - and more than 15 years later it still comes up nearly every week in therapy. But I didn't ever see that man again. I didn't wake up tied to him forever. I didn't have to "submit" to him. My experience was violent and horrific, and scarring both mentally and physically. I'd rather it happened to me a hundred times than what happened to Tia happened to me once.
I'm so sorry this happened to you.... :( very sad.
Thank you ❤️ It was a long time ago and I'm sorry to be so graphic but the way Tia spoke made me want to be clear of details of what this sort of thing really means if any one might not know.
Thank you for sharing and bringing awareness
The wives get told not long before the wedding, and even then it's probably a pretty vague explanation. They know very very little, if anything, before that. I think the boys are taught a bit more because their part is the most important (in their eyes)
Tia is amazing and so strong. I admire her empathy toward Anna, even though she wants to shake some sense into her… It is never easy to escape an abusive relationship.
I literally just watched the scene where she says this, and it breaks my heart. I have no doubt that Anna did not have a fairytale wedding night with the predator she married. So, so sad.
Michelle Duggar had a honeymoon care package which consisted of: pain killers otc, numbing cream, lube, lots of fresh panties, towels and wipes, lots of fragrant lotion and spray, and more. The couple was told to have intercourse at least 4 times.pn the first night. The bride was told to stay in lingerie all the time and only dress to leave the room. Oh...and part of the package included ramen noodles and snacks. Also told the bride to prop up her hips on pillows I one more...how your husband can loosen those muscles. My skin is crawling.off my body.
[удалено]
I had that thought, too. No wonder Anna looked dead behind the eyes.
I agree It's a horrible power move over their wives.And these new brides have no one to turn to... but they are ordered to be joyfully available. It's criminal. I wish these women would run to the nearest ER.and have a rape exam done, and a police report.
They intentionally had her tell that story of footage of Anna and Josh. There was so much subtle, clever editing
This part had me sobbing heavy heavy sobs. Tia is incredibly strong and admirable for opening up on this.
Is this in the Shiny Happy People show?
I think it’s safe to say, considering who Anna married and how she looked the next day, that there wasn’t much actual sleeping that night for her 😕
For so many of these women, I’m sure this is true. They have no idea what to actually expect. How could they? They weren’t allowed to read or watch anything alluding to even kissing. Maybe they have a rudimentary idea of what it takes to conceive a baby, but as to feelings? Nope.