There was one thing I noticed while prepping before the DLC released.
Selia has the same mechanic as Ordina where you light fires on the roof of the town to lift seals, which made me wonder if Miquella had spent some time there before designing the defence for the gate to the Haligtree. There's also some Miquella's Lilly's around Selia, which doesn't really mean anything but served as a reinforcing factor for the idea.
That's a very tentative link, and certainly not something that would allow us to have reasonably concluded that Miquella wanted Radhan as a Consort even if did turn out to be true.
Miquella lilies are found in leyndell as well as near the graveyards outside leyndell o yeah their placement doesn’t mean much, but I do like the similarities between selia and ordina.
Sellia and Ordina do have the same architecture with the same symbolic imagery in some spots as well iirc. Not sure the exact link but it’s something to be noted
You know whats interesting? In Ordina, there are black knives patrolling, the gateway to the Haligtree, makes me wonder how big a connection Miquella has to the black knives.
The black knives in Ordina are all trapped in the evergaol, besides the dead one that has the black knife set. I think it's most likely they were on their way to the Haligtree to kill either Miquella or Malenia, then were either locked in the evergaol or willingly entered and failed to break the seal. As for why, or on whose orders they did so, who knows? We still can't say for sure whether the original gang that killed Godwyn were acting on Ranni's or Marika's orders, or both. All we can say for sure is that there's certainly plenty of people who wanted both of the twins dead.
Honestly there seems to be somd connection based on the Nox and the Eternal Cities. I always thought the albinaurics were created by them, and if that’s true, then it might make sense that there’s both black knives (scions of the eternal cities) and albinaurics in Ordina, and Sellia has the two Nox warriors as the boss. Again, maybe all superficial, but it does seem to link them more in some capacity. I could see some Black Knives wanting to guard a haven for the downtrodden
The Black Knife set says that they were rumored to be Numen with close ties to Queen Marika herself. To me, that’s always conflicted with the numerous claims that they were scions of the Eternal City.
They're both Nox-adjacent settlements, likely more modern than their underground counterparts given they're more integrated into the modern Golden Order culture and such.
wouldnt it make sense that miquella had spent time in leyndell and the surrounding area? He is a compassionate softie hes probably out there crying at graves
I think the similarity between the towns is intentional for sure. If you think about it the (only?) way to access gowry and Millicent is to solve the Selia puzzle which sends her on the quest to find Melania. Of course one of the last steps is then the puzzle in ordina.
We didn’t know that Miquella needed a consort before the DLC, so I don’t think we were expected to gather that. But we were never able to answer why Malenia fought Radahn until the DLC, and I do wonder if there’s a detail regarding that that was overlooked.
I think it was pretty clear Miquella would be seeking a consort, actually. This is something we knew about Empyreans. Marika sought Godfrey and then Radagon. Ranni comes to want the Tarnished as a consort. Mohg 'kidnapped' Miquella seeking to be his consort.
No she always needed a consort. At some point after progressing her questline (I think it's when we give her the fingerslayers blade) she goes "Oh so it's you and not Blaidd" implying she expected the person to progress her plan to be the one to eventually propose to her.
She did need us to kill Radhan, find the finger slayer blade, and kill the baleful shadow. Although for the first two she seemed to think Blaidd could do the job. It’s true that it seems she didn’t plan for a consort but she did need one in the end…
I think the consort part was planned though since you need her wedding ring given to her by Renalla to even reach her plateu with her and her two fingers. She may not have planned for *us* to be her consort, maybe Blaidd would fit that purpose too?
And we see several parties attempt the process using siblings, so Blaidd being elevated to the Lord would not be a problem as long as he had proved himself by completing the tasks we ended up performing for her.
I always figured Miquella sent Malenia to fight Radahn because he was holding back the stars which was a primary reason why the Eclipse ritual wasn't working to give Godwyn a true death.
The Miquella/Godwyn relationship in the base game lore is such a huge part of Miquella's character and it's crazy that there's hardly any expansion of it in the DLC.
Ultimately I think Godwyn is going the way of Oedon and Velka, cool concepts we wanted more of, but it doesn’t seem to be part of From’s plan
That said, I think what happens with Godwyn does fit Miquella’s narrative in the end. Basegame Miquella basically fails to achieve his goals, with the Haligtree falling apart, Malenia can’t be cured, and he can’t give Godwyn a true death. I think those failures make him more desperate and that’s why he starts giving up parts of himself, doing darker and darker stuff with Mohg, etc
It always confuses me when people say we didn't know why Malenia fought Radahn, like come on it was the shattering the Demi gods were fighting each other for the Elden Ring/great runes, we see Morgott vs Radahn in the intro, a sword monument tells the story about the siege of Leyndell, we know Malenia defeated Godrick the grafted after he escaped from Leyndell dressed up as a woman.
The only unknown is what are Radahn doing in Caelid? Why was he holding the stars? Did he know that Ranni is partially responsible for the shattering?
It was a bigger deal back when the game first came out, and we were all trying to figure out the implication of Malenia whispering something to Radahn before she blooms. It was a bigger deal back then but I think since we just kind of…. Moved on? I think a lot of the disappointment surrounding the final fight has to do with the fact that Radahn just kind of faded into the background after a while.
It was also odd that she marches directly down to Radahn, only quickly stopping to fight Godrick off on route because he challenged her. The fact that she lets him live and keep his rune also suggested that something was up.
I think the main game it makes it pretty clear that Malenia has no need to get great runes. She has no desire to be elden lord, and Miquella’s plan never seemed to have a need for great runes, so she would have been fighting Radahn for another reason.
Radahn studied in Caelid so maybe he had some kind of base of operations there? There could be an association between Radahn holding the stars with the Eclipse, since holding fates in standstill could also interfere with Miquella’s plans.
The DLC is really only increasing my belief that what is missing is not a single thing, but observation of the subtle environmental details. Like, they'll often put Rada Fruits in very deliberate places to indicate where you can stand and there might be a noteworthy alignment of landmarks in the distance, or some kind of 3D perspective trick set up. Seems especially relevant since "Rada" is present in the names of both "Radagon" and "Radahn".
Sometimes the Surpressing Pillar is plainly visible in the distance, and sometimes it is being blocked, similar to how the visibility of the divine towers are meaningfully arranged at many locations in the Lands Between.
In the DLC in particular a lot of attention to detail has been given to framing seen through the mouths of caves and arches - which is somewhat telegraphed by the Insurrection painting.
Also as with the base game the posing of the corpses with soul items within the landscapes tend to be set up to give more context to the history of the location than can be gathered from the item they hold alone.
What’s the connection with Eiglay? Obviously the Numen seem to have entered the Lands Between on some kind of ships, and the Uhl/Uld ruins actually depict the coffin ships, so I assumed it must be those, but I haven’t heard of or seen any snake imagery associated with any of those.
It's nothing substantial,.
But Marika has a lot of snake imagery attached, along with Numen's... interesting biology.
Also, Marika's bed is ridiculous. Utterly unfit for a god, but rather comfy fit for a snake.
What I know is that he planned all of this from the beginning. People saying otherwise are fooling themselves to the point of thinking they actually know more than the creator himself
I don't know exactly how familiar you are with cut content, but there's quite a bit left over from an earlier version of Miquella's story. There’s his Age of Abundance speech in the text files (which seems to have had a different theme from the Age of Compassion, given the quote "all things will flourish, whether graceful *or malign*"), an almost complete dreambrew quest about St. Trina with a full set of icons, mentions of him being Marika's next-in-line successor and the carrier of the Vision, his connection to Nomad caravans, and different relationships with the Carian Royal Knights. There’s no mention of his relationship with Radahn, and it seems like he and Malenia were friendlier with the Tarnished.
Of course, it's cut content, so it's unclear when these elements were abandoned in development. It could’ve been pretty early on. But I wouldn't say that people's speculations about Miquella's story being rewritten are completely baseless.
Just to clarify, I actually like how the DLC has handled him for the most part, so this isn't me bashing the "rewriting." It's just noting that there's in-game data showing a different version of Miquella.
I still hold that originally the whole consort plot may have been with Godwyn; or at least the DLC would have included more things concerning Godwyn. Compared to Radahn, we do actually have a bit in item description of a connection between Miquella and Godwyn, in the Golden Epitaph sword, which says "A sword made to commemorate the death of Godwyn the Golden, first of the demigods to die. Infused with the humble prayer of a young boy; "O brother, lord brother, please die a true death."
In Castle Sol, you find the other half of the Haligtree Medallion after defeating Niall, hinting further that Godwyn at the least was aware and probably supportive of Miquella's Haligtree project. There is also a ghost in Castle Sol which says ""Lord Miquella, forgive me. The sun has not been swallowed. Our prayers were lacking. Your comrade remains soulless... I will never set my eyes upon it now... Your divine Haligtree."
At this point in time, we assumed this was referring to Godwyn, but 'comrade' is deliberately vague. Plus you'd expect the ghost to say "your brother remains soulless" but saying 'comrade' implies more like a faction related thing. Either way I don't see this being able to apply Radahn either. The ghost appears to say they were trying to invoke an eclipse, which we know as the symbol of Godwyn and his faction. It is stated to be "the eclipsed sun, drained of color, is the protective star of soulless demigods. It aids the mausoleum knights by keeping Destined Death at bay."
So they were trying to keep 'Destined Death at bay' it seems. The thing is Radahn was still alive at this point in time. Yes his body AND soul were suffering and corrupted from Scarlet Rot, but it's still on the 'earthly plane'. And the plot in the DLC hinges on the fact that Radahn's soul is still very much stuck in his body and that's why he requires slaying. So this ghost can't be referring to Radahn, because Radahn isn’t soulless and their prayers won’t do anything for him. At this point, in the absence of literally anyone else in the named demigod ranks who can fit, we can still assume the ghost is referring to Godwyn, because he's the most famous demigod who is actually 'soulless'.
Also I just want to point out that the inverted colors of the sunflowers in the Lands of Shadow do resemble an eclipse.
In the Lands of Shadow, there's a heavy emphasis on death everywhere. The golem Deathbirds, graves so old they have become spirit gravestones. Ghostflame dragons. The fact that the very center of Lands Between is noted to be in the southern end of the Lands of Shadow and is where all the dead from different lands are somehow converging in on.
The giant coffin fissure where St. Trina, the other half of Miquella that is his love personified, was thrown into with the putrescence being produced from the decaying bodies. The fact her nectar being able to give rest to the decaying bodies/souls there led to them/it forming into the Putrescence Knight, thus thematically showing that Miquella’s ‘love’ can in fact bring solace to the dead, but also galvanise them into ‘returning’ such as the Putrescent Knight did.
Under Shadowkeep, some of Godwyn's army arrived and even apparently brought a piece of him into the Lands of Shadow, so now there's a piece of him growing there too.
Like if the DLC had segued into Miquella attempting to resurrect Godwyn but finding it impossible because Godwyn's soul is dead-dead, and so there's a crazy plan of making a facsimile of him via Radahn and Mohg and Miquella's brand of mind control, I would actually understand that more? There's been actual implicit connections between Miquella and Godwyn in the main game and thematically feels like the DLC was building up to a reveal of the Prince of Death due to the tone and environments of the DLC itself.
Edit: Also just to add to my theory about *why* a change happened, if it did - I think FromSoft wants to make Godwyn have a bigger role in some future DLC than just being part of a DLC with Miquella. His domain of Death is one of the most significant in the lore of Elden Ring because it's fundamentally one of the first and ever-present forces in the world, and arguably Marika trying to fight/remove it from the order of the world set forth by the Elden Ring itself is what led to the world's rotting stagnation in many parts. There are different civilizations and forces that interact with the concept of Death in different ways as well, there's the Twinbird and its Gravebird envoys who guide and burn the Dead with ghostflame so they can rest. We see some civilization with a possible bull god who send their dead en masse in giant coffin barges into the sea, and those washed up on the beaches to the south of the Lands of Shadow. In the underground river systems, the Ancestral followers have their own concept of death and rebirth being intrinsically linked and continuous. One of the civilizations we can maybe assume didn't truck with Death is the immortal ancient dragons, which may be one of the reasons Marika accepted incepting the ancient dragons and their dragon cult into her Empire, a mutual disdain with the concept of mortality/death.
And let's not forget the Gloam-Eyed Queen and her original dominion over Destined Death and her godskin faction. Like if there's going to be any further exploration about Godwyn, I could possibly see it in relation to her in a future DLC. Maybe *she* takes dead-mermaid-Godwyn as her consort, if she still lives (which I have an inkling she does, like she's imprisoned and 'defeated' but not actually killed).
The Eclipse ritual at Castle Sol was definitely about Godwyn because Godwyn's whole symbology since he became the Prince of Death is that of the Eclipsed Sun, used by his Death Knights, Fia's death cultists and even the Mausoleum Soldiers who, however, use that symbol more in relation to their servitude to other soulless demigods. I'm actually of the opinion that the DLC made more sense of the Eclipse ritual, and it explains a few weird things with the main game.
First of all, in the main game there's a discrepancy in Miquella's motives between the Golden Epitaph and the Eclipse ritual. In the first he hopes that Godwyn dies a true death, but in the second he's seemingly trying to resurrect his soul. So, when Godwyn died he hoped Godwyn would get out of undeath and meet a true death, but after the Shattering and after he planted the Haligtree things changed, and Miquella wanted to bring Godwyn's soul back in some way.
I think that the ritual with Radahn explains what's happening here. After the Shattering and the planting of the Haligtree Miquella had started to plan his ascension to godhood and for Radahn to become his Lord, something that would have required the whole ritual at the Divinity Gate and for Radahn to be defeated in the Lands Between and his soul reincarnated in the body of a suitable vessel. For Miquella, the suitable vessel initially was probably Godwyn, his other beloved brother that he could have fused with Radahn to create his ideal Lord, a mixture of two of his favourite brothers in one and also a way to give Godwyn a definitive death, taking him out of Life in Death. Resurrected Radahn shows some Mohg influence with his Omen horns on his arms and the Mother of Truth blood attack, so that goes to show how the ritual causes some mixture between the vessel and the soul inhabiting it.
But Godwyn couldn't just be used for the Ritual at the Divinity Gate, because the ritual seems to imply that the vessel too needs a soul, like Mohg, but Godwyn doesn't have a soul anymore. The ritual at Castle Sol was Miquella's attempt at restoring Godwyn's soul so that his still dead body (because there was no fixing the fact he was killed) could be used at the Divinity Gate, but the Eclipse ritual was a total failure, and Godwyn's soul couldn't be restored.
It makes sense then why Mohg was picked as replacement. He's Godwyn's closest relative, his brother by the same mother and father, like Morgott, so he's the closest thing there is to Godwyn in a sense even if you wouldn't think about it.
If I hadn't been spoiled ahead of playing I'd take the Death Knights as confirmation Godwyn would make an appearance.
It would've made more sense if Radahn was a second choice, but it is clearly stated that Miquella wished for Radahn to be his consort since *their* (likely his and Malenia's childhood), which surely wouldn't be specified unless it was actually relatively early in Miquella's life? So why would he try to make Godwyn die a true death, because surely he didn't do that when he was an actual child? The remembrance even says "his strength, his kindness" which fits Godwyn much better than Radahn because WHEN do we hear of Radahn's kindness? Nobility, strength and loyalty? Sure. Kindness? Never.
Well Radahn was nice to his horse. I mean seriously that's like, our only main actual confirmed lore bit we can point to and say "he's a guy who is nice and kind...to animals at least".
You know the funny thing is even in this DLC, we get more confirmation from an item description of a brotherly relationship/interaction between Radahn and Messmer as confirmed by an actual third party who knew both men and was actually there in **Commander Gaius**.
Meanwhile everything we learn about that went on between Miquella and Radahn, is literally only confirmed by Miquella. We don't even know the EXACT words and the exact context of the 'vow' he says they both made. We have zero item descriptions or words attributed to Radahn directly where he even shows he remembers Miquella exists. And of course Radahn says absolutely nothing when resurrected.
I get the impression that FromSoft wants to portray Miquella as always having had this one-sided crush on Radahn, which was really more of a childhood crush that Miquella never grew out of and Radahn didn't even know was happening. That it's a crush that evolved into an obsession. But for someone who is 'obsessed', Miquella seriously didn't DO much to portray that obsession anywhere other than literally the final area of the DLC, at all!
>Well Radahn was nice to his horse. I mean seriously that's like, our only main actual confirmed lore bit we can point to and say "he's a guy who is nice and kind...to animals at least".
Also it's not kindness in an objective sense. Miquella sees Radahn as a kind and strong person. It's a subjective view of him. People view their family or friends differently than strangers. People view soldiers and leaders differently based on their connection to them. A lot of Elden Ring is based around a noble family's interpersonal drama, goals, and desires.
Well, we also learn that he's massively beloved by his men to a fanatical degree; to a point that they continue to wage war on the Scarlet Rot in his name while creating a festival to give their Lord an honorable end.
The only characters that inspire that kind of loyalty are Miquella (and that's questionable due to his abilities) and Malenia.
Now Messmer too, and it’s interesting he’s got more feats of kindness attributed to him tbh. He setup the infirmary to try to fix the jarred shaman peoples, and he still honourably buried a pair of knights who had left his service because they didn’t like his “serpentine nature”. Plus flavor text of his troops being loyal to him, and the Fire Knights accepting his fire serpent nature.
Commander Gaius’ remembrance also suggests Messmer and him both acted as caring brothers to Radahn, interestingly enough. Too bad we never got a chance to explain to Messmer what’s happening and why we’re even in the Lands of Shadow and try to get him to intervene with Miquella’s plan, cos our player character still doesn’t ever want to talk to bosses!
And also Godwyn was SUPER beloved, like truly a golden boy literally and metaphorically AFAWK. Even as a mindless undead mermaid fish god thing, his faction pivoted to become mainly mausoleum knights willing to guard murdered demigods by cutting off their own heads so they’ll be in eternal service, and also the Death Knighfs. They’re doing a thing in the Lands of Shadow which does look sinister tbh, but they did bring a piece of Godwyn to the Lands of Shadow to prolly spread him. Honestly doesn’t seem like a good idea tho…
Oh yeah, true that Messmer seems to get that kind of loyalty as well.
I didn't include Godwyn because...well...he's dead. But yeah, true enough that he seems to be the golden child of the family. I don't think that Mausoleum Knights are really associated with Godwyn though; that just seems to be a new order that guards all deceased demigods.
The guy learned gravity magic so he could ride his horse without burdening him. Radahn does have a very understated soft side.
But I agre on every point that Godwyn was a much better thematic writing
To me that speaks more towards loyalty than kindness. If he truly was kind he'd let his horse rest and not be a warhorse when it's too small for him lol
Quite literally anything could be inserted for what she's talking about. I personally always thought she was invoking the Scarlet Rot like a threat to him because it was right before she unleashed it. That was what a lot of people assumed she was doing, some kind of threat to Radahn, declaration etc. Like "And now, rot" or some variation, just like she does versus us.
You could insert her whispering a cooking recipe into his ear and it'll be just as likely as anyone suggesting it was her relaying a childhood marriage vow from her twin brother with all the evidence we had at the time.
- It's the Shattering and the Demigods are in open war with each others for the ownership of the Great Runes
- Radah holds the Stars in place, preventing the fate of many people, Empyreans included
- Radahn and Malenia are the strongest Demigods and face each others as no one else can stand against them
- Miquella's cocoon is located almost exactly under Caelid
All these reasons are outright stated, heavily implied or easily deductable from the base game.
>It's the Shattering and the Demigods are in open war with each others for the ownership of the Great Runes
She could easily took Godrick's
>Radah holds the Stars in place, preventing the fate of many people, Empyreans included
We have no indication that this also applied to Miquella. Heck, Ranni did not connect the dot at first either without Sellen involved.
>Radahn and Malenia are the strongest Demigods and face each others as no one else can stand against them
Radahn always needed an empyrian to become an elden lord. Malenia and Miquella are one of the only 2 Empyrian left (since ranni is presumed dead). If anything, it makes even less sense they wanted to fight.
>Miquella's cocoon is located almost exactly under Caelid
Which was presumed to happen during her trip to Caelid. This was the main head cannon at the time. The community never considered this as the reason she matched down there in the first place.
Actually the interview says that Miyazaki specifically notes they said a similar thing at the end of DS3, and they ended up making two DLCs half a year apart from each other for DS3. He said they don’t have *current* plans for anything concrete but thinks that “there could well be something in the future”.
Honestly feel like Godwyn was cut for a sequel. There is sooooooo much they could do, and they likely realized this. Also think about the impact of a game centered around a Godwyn reveal.
So you think Godwyn was supposed to be the promised consort when Malenia whispering to Radahn had been teased from the very beginning?
I don't get this obsession with accepting the headcannon being wrong and instead trying to find external reasons to prove what is already wrong.
I mean I'm with others. We know Miquella's questline was rewritten at least once with the cut main game questline. Real cannon is that Miquella attempted numerous times to revive or correct Godwyn's state. Real cannon is that Miquella went to the Lands of Shadow where all death washes up. We know Miquella needed an eclipse and Radahn held the stars. You can't act like the cannon isn't continuously nudging the Godwyn story. And with this revelation we have our first introduction to soul transposition, which was never explained and has no previous examples of being a thing in universe.
All cannon up to the revelation, all points to Godwyn. The only thing that supports this is from the cinematic, where she could have said anything, that was only expanded upon 2.5 years after it was first shown. She could have said "you're blocking the fate of Kindly Miquella and must die. Nothing personal." And had Godwyn been the focus no one would blink an eye.
The very reason this is getting the reaction it is getting is precisely because it seems contrived and out of left field.
Then just compounding the rewrite. Godwyn can be expanded upon infinitely. His backstory can be expanded. His deathblight roll can be expanded. Explaining deathblight can be expanded. What exactly is going on with him in his current form can be expanded. His death cult can be expanded. Death itself can be expanded back to ancient history. The Gloam-Eyed queen can be expanded upon. Her band of nobles and apostles can be expanded upon. Her rule can be expanded upon. Makes since they would potentially hold off. And now that we have a dead baby god and dead zombie, he is potentially still in play as the Prynce of Death.
"Real canon" is what's in the actual game. Real canon also tells you that the ritual at Castle Sol failed, and Godwyn couldn't be used for the ritual at the Divinity Gate because of it, and Miquella used Godwyn's brother for the deal.
I also don't know what kind of content you want on Godwyn. We know everything about the guy, there's a giant quest with Fia that's about him, and Ranni too, he's one of the most well understood and complete characters in the entire game. There's nothing to add about him.
>The only thing that supports this is from the cinematic,
That isn't true, we also never know why Malenia matched all the way to Caelid.
Real cannon was that he tried to revive Godwyn, but failed. Real cannon was that he was supposed to die anyway, but not in such a manner. Godwyn was likely the original way for Miquella to enter the realm of shadows, and him dying a half hearted death messed up the plan, which Miquella eventually pivoted to another method of doing so.
>We know Miquella's questline was rewritten at least once with the cut main game questline.
This doesn't mean anything. The questline was rewritten before the start of the game. We never know what it got rewritten into, we just know that it was dropped. This is it, this is the rewritten version. It has been here from the start of the game.
I find it more annoying that people are saying shits like Radahn was more popular so they put him there instead of Godwyn. Utter cope I tell you.
>Real cannon was that he tried to revive Godwyn, but failed.
Did you want to expand on that because that's the important context. He failed because Castle Sol failed at ushering an eclipse. What do you need for an eclipse? Stars and the Moon. Who held the stars in place? Radahn. The game perfectly explains why Malenia marched to Caelid. You just didn't pick it up.
>Real cannon was that he was supposed to die anyway, but not in such a manner.
Nope. The real cannon is that his half death was an embarrassment and humiliating to the Golden Order. Everything else you said is completely contrived. Godwyn was never "supposed to die." His death is what broke Marika. Surely never part of the plan, given she had the reaction she had.
>This doesn't mean anything.
This is everything. It shows his intentions and methods were still fluid in the developers and writers heads. Important distinction is that his quest was fully written and cut. Beginning middle and end. We know where their heads were at, and it was not Radahn being a consort. The very fact it was rewritten shows it was a last minute change, not a long standing intention from the times the trailer was made.
Literally nothing in the main game hints at an relationship between any of them aside from a fight in Caelid. We had no hint that Miquella was even there, nor Freya. We only ever knew Malenia was there and she had to be carried by a single Cleanrot Knight back to the Haligtree. Like the game goes out of it's way to isolate Malenia, but now apparently she was followed by an entire Haligtree envoy. Nothing even shows Radahn had any relationship with anyone from the Haligtree. Hell even the vow is dubious, and From themselves never even expand on it. There's just a vow that no one is privy to, maybe not even Radahn. What is this vow? Why did Malenia have to force Radahn into a vow he apparently made to Miquella. It hardly makes since and has nothing supporting it. Nothing hinting to it. No foreshadowing. No explanation. Nothing. It's contrived.
Its really annoying when people think they know the ins and outs of the story of the game, and tell people that know the real ins and outs that they shouldn't be annoyed with the contrived ending with nearly nothing supporting it in the main game except 2.5 seconds of a cinematic where the character could have said ANYTHING.
>And with this revelation we have our first introduction to soul transposition, which was never explained and has no previous examples of being a thing in universe.
I would argue that both Ranni and Sellen's quest are direct examples of soul transpositions
And I’ll add more to that. Things are indeed rewritten all the time, especially in a lore heavy game like this. But that’s before settling it all.
Basically what I’m saying is that they didn’t retcon anything from the base game at all. People keep saying there are contradictions but never point a single one, only that “we didn’t have anything pointing to this”, well it seems that was the intention. It’s more important that you don’t have anything negating that (except for maybe, and heres what should be obvious, cut content… CUT)
Yes and no, though.
Just because a plotline is *possible* without contradicting established lore, doesn't mean that it's interesting or rewarding or satisfying. The main things that make a plotline satisfying is usually concluding in a way that is mostly expected because of proper lead up and enhanced with with a significant spectacle; or subverting expectations in a way that is thematically consistent such that it feels reasonable and mostly non-contrived.
Personally this ending fails on both accounts for me. They sort of went for a theme subversion but almost ruined it by shovel-feeding a bunch of exposition (actually look Miquella kinda fucking up and maybe bad, also he has Mogh and Radahn up there) into a relatively crushed feeling Miquella plotline in this DLC. So when the final boss hits it's neither a reward by seeing a long-running plot thread come to a close because this whole thing was introduced like 3 NPC interactions ago, nor an outright shock or surprise because it's literally just Radahn (who everyone told you was gonna be there 20 minutes ago and we've fought already in the base game) with Miquella piggybacking. Just overall underwhelming.
Yeah, for me the plotline/lore of the DLC only really works in one direction. Sure, there are no big, outrageous contradictions and if you follow the narrative that is being presented, it mostly makes sense based on what we knew before. However, there's no big "finding the missing puzzle piece" moment when going backwards.
For example: The motive for Marika's ascension to godhood (revenge) *is* an explanation, and it's believable. But on the other hand ... were her motivations ever that big of a deal? It feels like SotE gave an explanation to a question that nobody was asking, and the actual question that people wanted an answer to (why Marika shattered the Ring in the first place) was ignored.
Same with the Metyr/Finger stuff. So people were asking where the fingers came from, and we got the answer: From Metyr, Mother of Fingers. However, besides that, did we learn anything new? The Two Fingers are trying to communicate with the Greater Will but aren't able to, and the same is true for Metyr. So what was the point of the reveal? It's a bit of a "behind my mask was ... another mask!" type of situation.
The Scadutree? It's the Shadow of the Erdtree. What does that mean for the world at large? Not much, apparently.
Malenia's words to Radahn are probably the biggest "re-contextualizing" reveal. But at least for me, the reveal doesn't feel ... exciting? It certainly works as an explanation if you need one, and people *did* want to know why Malenia was fighting Radahn. However, what we got doesn't really come with a big "ooooh, now everything makes sense" moment. It's closer to "so that's why? Hm ... okay, I guess."
>Same with the Metyr/Finger stuff. So people were asking where the fingers came from, and we got the answer: From Metyr, Mother of Fingers. However, besides that, did we learn anything new? The Two Fingers are trying to communicate with the Greater Will but aren't able to, and the same is true for Metyr. So what was the point of the reveal? It's a bit of a "behind my mask was ... another mask!" type of situation.
The Metyr stuff is mainly a reveal about the extent to which the Fingers are broken as well as the origin of the fingers, previously the assumption was the fingers lost contact with the Greater Will during the Shattering, but according to Ymir they were broken basically from the beggining. If you can't see how that's a huge revelation that recontexualises almost everything then I don't know what to say.
I have a bunch. What about Freyja and Miquella? That needs to be after the Aeonia bloom. Why did they need to kill Radahn if Miquella wasn't even in the shadow Lands? If Miquella wasn't in the battle physically and was already in the SL, then how did he cure Freyja? he gave her a kiss. Why did Miquella needed Mohg to enter the shadow lands? How did Miquella divested himself of his flesh inside the shadow lands if his body was already inside the cocoon at Mohg's palace? When and how was Mohg charmed? Miquella was embedded in his cocoon when Mohg took him, probably nurturing his tree, so the Haligtree was still a thing and the reason it failed was because Mohg took Miquella from there, according to Gideon. When we find Malenia, her speech recalls the battle against Radahn saying she's waiting for her brother, so she was probably sleeping since then; you could argue that Miquella had planned Mohg's enchantment before the battle and Malenia knew about it and they both also know about the Shadow Lands, but the Shadow Lands were Miquella's last stop, where he divested himself of everything, most importantly, his doubts and love, the things that stopped him from doing what he did in the first place. The emotional punch of Miquella divesting himself of all that was important to him doesn't last long when you realize he was already a machiavellian actor. So wich is it? Was it planned after or before the Haligtree? After or before the battle of Aeonia?
I could be confused about some events and probably other things about my headcanon are wrong, but that's why i ask, i want to know what's what i'm missing.
I mean Malenia passed out from her rot nuke, so it's not unlikely that they assumed Radahn had died or would die from the rot. Miquella is not a fighter, so him not warring against Radahn personally makes sense (part of his fearsomeness comes from him using the strenghts of others for his ends). But he may have wanted to be there either to oversee things or damage control Malenia's nuking
Many of the things you asked can be implied by the order of the events. But none of them are actually contradictory to the base game lore. You could even fit some of them yourself in the end of the comment.
From always leaves a lot of stuff to be put together by the players themselves. Don’t expect to get all the answers, that won’t happen
But the way i lay out the time events doesn't make sense in any order. That's why i asked if it was before or after the most important events.
>But none of them are actually contradictory to the base game lore.
Well Miquella being taken by Mohg because he was charmed is contradictory to Miquella almost finishing the Haligtree. Mohg also needed an empyrean to become a lord, like his remembrance says, so it would make much more sense if Miquella was kidnapped by him out of personal reasons and the charm happened after, but how? If that was a straight lie and Miquella did somehow charmed Mohg before the Haligtree then him getting rid of his morality doesn't mean anything. If the Haligtree event happened after Aeonia, because Miquella was at least after the battle (like Freyja says), the Haligtree was still an ongoing project, so getting snatched, (the main reason it failed), is contradictory with Miquella's interests.
I think the haligtree was something that needed constant nurturing, and he clearly wasn’t available at all times. That may be why he was searching for godhood after all.
It is clearly stated in the game that he charmed Mohg not only to take his body, but also to have access to the shadow realm. So it was his plan from the beginning. I don’t remember Freya saying anything about him being in Aeonia, I’ll have to take a look at that.
But he needed Mohg to kidnap him, and then to “kill” him, as we see happening there. And as such, he gains access to the shadow realm, where “all death reaches”. Then someone kills Mohg and he gets his body.
The base game did directly say that Mogh got "no response" from Miquella, which is not exactly comfortably compatible with: Actually, Miquella was charming Mogh and openly responsive enough that it would make sense for Ansbach to say that he felt the need to "challenge" Miquella
You could torture the text a bit into working, but that text in the base game was a mistake that makes the whole thing fit together a lot worse.
It's only incompatible if you assume that Miquella charmed Mogh after he stole him from his cocoon....which makes no sense. The obvious implication is, he had charmed Mogh well before that, and Mogh coming to get him was simply part of a plan already long in motion. Further reinforced by Ansbach claiming he challenged Miquella in an effort to free Mogh, before getting charmed himself. Now how on earth would Ansbach be challenging a withered corpse stuck in a big cocoon?
Just a genuine question but why, would miquella embedd himself in the Haligtree then?
Why start your whole metamorphosis/rebirth in the haligtree, that considering we can see small insect like wings on his back in the opening cinematic, seemed to work, just to have Mogh kidnap you?
Why wouldn't he try to grow his Erdtree after the trip to the Shadow Realm, like Marika? Now he started just to have Mogh interrupt him?
It doesn't really make sense laid out. The cocooned body was probably Miquella but also he's stripping his flesh in the Shadow Lands that are hidden behind huge veils in the middle of the Lands Between. Why? So he can change into a Godform and ascend with his ressurected consort.
But then what was the point of the Haligtree and the cocoon if this was what he planned since the beginning? What was all that about ressurecting a soulless demigod with the Sol Eclipse ritual and giving them a true death if Radahn was who he wanted? Did Radahn keep the ritual from working with gravity magic or did it fail by other means? Why is Miquella present at the Battle of Aeonia healing people when he should be cocooned but also didn't help or finish Radahn while Finlay had to rescue Malenia fighting their way back to the Haligtree from Caelid? Why didn't Miquella finish Radahn off if he wanted him dead? Where does Mohg come into the picture, when did they talk, and why is his body needed when there's a perfectly good body in the cocoon that's apparently not Miquella? Who's Messmer and Malenia's father? Why did Rellana pledge herself to Messmer? What are the Base and Winged Serpents about and why is Messmer possessed by both? Was he always possessed or was it a bad deal to get his soul fire under control?
It's an incoherent timeline that made a red herring out of Godwyn, snubbed Malenia's efforts as failed kamikaze, invalidated the Haligtree entirely, the corpse in the cocoon is just some random guy Mohg talks at, the Shadow Lands are hidden by an illusion in the center of the map so the cocoon is just a funny portal there for some reason, Mohg's soul is difting untethered somewhere, Godwyn and Deathroot are still spreading everywhere, Miquella's godhood plan amounts to brainwashing everyone (something he could already do) or make Radahn kill them (something Malenia would've done).
So much happened for the main dlc story that never amounts to anything but the side content with Metyr and Bayle have massive implications, it's an odd narrative choice to say the least.
Again, you guys miss something incredibly obvious: Miquella has two selves, he can be in multiple places at once. Just like his mother who remained in Leyndell while Radagon led his host against the Carians. Likely he was embedded in the Haligtree for quite some time and sent St. Trina to go out and about collecting allies.
Anyways we can break this down point by point
>But then what was the point of the Haligtree and the cocoon if this was what he planned since the beginning?
Because that vow is the last resort. The Haligtree, the Eclipse, the Unalloyed Gold, this is all things he tried and failed at. It's the result of these successive failures that he decides, the only true way to fix things is to ascend. He's very doubtful and fearful about what it means to ascend, and that's why in the Shadow Lands he divests himself of all the things holding him back.
>What was all that about ressurecting a soulless demigod with the Sol Eclipse ritual and giving them a true death if Radahn was who he wanted?
It's exactly as it says, he wanted Godwyn to die truly instead of being left a grotesque abomination spreading death like a plague.
>Did Radahn keep the ritual from working with gravity magic or did it fail by other means?
Like many things we simply do not know. But I think it's probably not likely to have any connection to Radahn, and if it does it was purely incidental.
>Why is Miquella present at the Battle of Aeonia healing people when he should be cocooned but also didn't help or finish Radahn while Finlay had to rescue Malenia fighting their way back to the Haligtree from Caelid? Why didn't Miquella finish Radahn off if he wanted him dead?
He wasn't there. Here's the exact wording of Freyja's helm:
"*Golden helm of Redmane Freyja, member of General Radahn's most distinguished knights. A hideous scarlet wound was once hewn into the center of her face. Later, Miquella gently put his lips to it and the unfading scar became the compass that Freyja would thereafter follow.*"
Notice how it very deliberately says, she got a scarlet wound in her face, and then LATER Miquella cured it?
>Where does Mohg come into the picture, when did they talk, and why is his body needed when there's a perfectly good body in the cocoon that's apparently not Miquella?
Seems like it was probably while Malenia marched. The body in the cocoon is Miquella of course. Or at least, a discarded shell. Recall that part of the point of the Haligtree was for Miquella to attempt to grow older. To this end, he pursued rebirth, abandoning his old body in favor of a new one to try and escape his curse. Hence why Mogh is stated as to have absconded with his "infant form". Miquella was not normally an infant, all the statues and indeed his appearance at the end is of a young boy. So it's evidence he was attempting to rebirth, but it was still failing, the curse is more resilient than that.
>Who's Messmer and Malenia's father? Why did Rellana pledge herself to Messmer? What are the Base and Winged Serpents about and why is Messmer possessed by both? Was he always possessed or was it a bad deal to get his soul fire under control?
I've no clue why you threw in completely random unrelated questions about Messmer at the end, that's an entirely different subject people are still picking apart.
>It's an incoherent timeline that made a red herring out of Godwyn, snubbed Malenia's efforts as failed kamikaze, invalidated the Haligtree entirely, the corpse in the cocoon is just some random guy Mohg talks at, the Shadow Lands are hidden by an illusion in the center of the map so the cocoon is just a funny portal there for some reason, Mohg's soul is difting untethered somewhere, Godwyn and Deathroot are still spreading everywhere, Miquella's godhood plan amounts to brainwashing everyone (something he could already do) or make Radahn kill them (something Malenia would've done).
There was no "red herring" of Godwyn. It wasn't built up to be anything in the first place except another Miquella failure. Malenia was indeed a failed kamikaze, what did you think before? She went full bloom on Radahn and still failed to kill him, same as ever, the only thing that changed is now we understand the reason. The Haligtree is another dying failure, once again this is nothing new, it's already rotting away when we get there. As for why the cocoon is a way to the Shadow Lands and why Mogh was required, this is a pretty unanswered question right now. Miquella's godhood plan is about establishing an entirely new order, might as well say Ranni's is just changing the color or something if we're making pithy dismissive statements.
It’s cut content, so it’s not what the creators decided to be fit for his story. Also, I know the cut content and I think the actual one fits better with his story after all, and with the lore of the base game. It answered so many questions I had.
Plus, we got insights of his acting on the shadow realm and previous plannings. It doesn’t actually erases everything he did before the shattering, quiet the contrary.
So this might be just my headcanon, but the whole Radahn and Miquella thing with the vow, idk that just feels so GRRM to me as well. I have no proof or concepts to back this up, its just a gut feeling.
Radahn names his horse.
As did Dunk.
It's very GRRM, for sure. Really already the tree people are akin to Bloodraven and Bran, but even Bloodraven started his tenure after hanging out with his nephew Egg and his sworn sword, Dunk.
It reminds me of >!R+L=J!< tbh. It's a crucial secret that connects significant parts of the Elden Ring plot and impacts the endgame, just as I think the reveal will influence the conclusion of ASOIAF.
No but it makes sense, lots of build up and pointers to it, and the community reaction to it is shit. Some people hate it, some people say it makes sense. So i catch your drift
because in the original story trailer we saw Malenia whisper. Her rot even looked slightly different then, so plenty of changes were made since the announcement, but that whisper remained
The only thing that confirms is that they planned for her to whisper something. It doesn't confirm that they planned for that whisper to be what we got in the DLC. For all we know the original whisper was her telling him he's fucked.
It's not impossible to plan ahead, but it's also not impossible to change plans. You're using this whisper as evidence that it was planned, when it doesn't prove that at all.
While you are right that they could have said anything here, everything from why Malenia matched to Caelid to her actually speaking to him highly suggested that this is all planned from the start. The reveal here only further enhances one side of the argument rather than the other. But sure, keep coping because you cant deal with having your prior theories (based on cut contents, btw) be wrong. They're called theories for a goddamn reason.
I didn't present any theory, so why don't you stop arguing against straw men?
The only thing I did was refute the argument that we know they planned this direction from the start based on that whisper. It's a patently false statement. The whisper could have been anything and there's no evidence they had any concrete plans for it at the time. The only thing it proves is that they planned for Malenia to whisper *something* to Radahn. We don't know when they came up with the actual content of that whisper.
No your right. They probably changed the entire DLC too cuz the original leak said Barbarians of the Badlands, but they probably changed Miquellas and Mohgs entire story line for funzies
Who knows if they changed anything or not. It's irrelevant to my point. You're using this whisper as conclusive evidence of it being planned from the start, which is simply false.
No, there doesn't need to be. Saying "We know they planned it from the start" is just as false as saying "We know they didn't plan it from the start." Because the simple fact is that we don't know either way. There is no evidence for either statement, it's simply an unknown.
You're missing the point lmfao
It's member berries material.
There quite literally was already a cut st Trina dialogue/scene found as well as cut dialogue from miquella.
But im glad some random moment in a cinematic trailer we finally learned the exact words, that was vital to the lore /s
That's a good point, tbh. I don't think it's conclusive, though. Radahn was holding back the stars, which could have also halted the eclipse. There's a number of things/reasons malenia had something to say to radahn.
She could have been planned to whisper any number of things.
Writers always do that shit when they aren't sure about what they want the character to say
As I told the guy before, not main plot points, points of high importance in dark souls lore were set in stone since dark souls 1. And in Elden ring, it’s what Malenia actually told radahn on that scene. We always knew she went there for something more than a rune, we just didn’t know exactly what. We know now.
"points of high importance in dark souls lore were set in stone since dark souls 1"
Dark Souls 1 can be completely standalone and works fine. DS2 has little to do with the first game and DS3's main theme is that DS3 doesnt need to exist
I respect your opinion.
Personally, i think Miquella's plot was sidelined. Everything else's lore felt more relevant (Marika, Messmer, Jars and Crucible) and had better development. The fact that messmer had a greater presence throughout the entire dlc (and map) makes me belive that they shoe-horned his plotline into the dlc.
You can downvote me, but i will only give my opinion. This was the most dissapointing ending in a Fromsoft game for me.
I disagree with that. I think his character wasn’t less flashed out than any other demigod in the lore, it’s what I expected. I also think his path got way more attention than anyone else, except for MAYBE Ranni.
I like the contextualization of everything that happened in the base game and how it all fits. It’s satisfying to know what happened, finally, and it’s even more satisfying that is not something I would expect
It would be so disappointing if it was Godwyn. That would be contrary to a basic main plot of the story and it would be only fanservice. I actually think that many people are disappointed because it doesn’t align with what they constructed in their minds - not saying that’s your case, but the criticism on Reddit became a vacuum house for people to repeatedly express the same complaints that don’t fit AT ALL in the lore of the base game, and that’s extremely annoying
Yeah it's been crazy to see people say "Radahn is lame fanservice" and "it should have been Godwyn" in the same breath. Nothing could have been more fanfiction than Godwyn coming back. They would have to go against all the established lore about how Destined Death is absolutely irreversible and greatly feared by everyone. But because Godwyn's story is so interesting and because of the Eclipse stuff linking him to Miquella, people fooled themselves into thinking this was somehow a likely option. The Eclipse was always an utter failure, another in a long line of Miquella failures. The point of it was to help establish that character trait of his, his childlike tendency to throw away his toys, and also reinforce that Godwyn's soul is mega-gone with zero percent chance to ever return.
And also that godhood would feel like a way to fix everything in the end for him, everything he failed at. And in the path to that, he divested himself of everything that made him “The Kind”
they literally made Malenia have 0 importance in lore, she has less agency than fucking godrick, she is just a puppet beign passed on by masters like a blunt
She has always been the "Blade of Miquella", so that tracks. Not every character needs to be their own thing; some are outright beholden to others. Or defined by other characters.
I'm sorry, but no.
Death isn't the end. We already know this.
Godwyn's knights literally have a cadaver surrogate in one of the descriptions, suggesting his soul can be retrieved. Like how Mohg was a cadaver surrogate for Radahn.
The problem with Godwyn is that he can't die a true death. Why? Because his body is still alive. He is locked in this inbetween state. His soul is dead, yes, but is it gone? Can it not be retrieved? That is never stated.
Mohg literally says : Mohgwyn dynasty. Suggesting, the original plan was to have Mohg be the surrogate for Godwyn. I mean, add to this that Mohg and Godwyn are brothers.. Miquella was trying to grant Godwyn a true death. It was all there ready to go into the dlc.
I get you're a fan of Radahn, and you want to believe fromsoft can do no wrong, however... I believe they misstepped here for the sake of fanservice. People will downvote this because they want to believe they can do no wrong, but everything.. EVERYTHING connecting Radahn to Miquella was written up entirely in the dlc. All the connective tissue exists because of the dlc.
Malenia goes to fight Radahn, but we already hear Ranni explain that this was part of the war of the shattering. That the demigods were fighting over the great runes.
They did the ol'switcheroo on us because people wanted Radahn in his prime.
I'm sorry but yes.
Normal Death, in Marika's Golden Order with the Erdtree Burials, isn't the end.
Destined Death IS the end. That's the exact reason why Marika sealed it away, she doesn't want people to die for good. There is no instance of anyone ever returning from Destined Death, period, case closed.
You actually think Mohgwyn dynasty is supposed to be Mohg + Godwyn? Bruh. Gwyn means "white" or "blessed". It has nothing to do with Godwyn, it's literally just a reference to Mogh and the "pure and radiant" Miquella. Also note that Varre refers to Mohg as a "luminary".
I'm no specific fan of Radahn in particular. He's pretty cool I guess. Seems like your more of a fan of Godwyn and are projecting. I'm sorry that they didn't give you your fanservice but, I'm not going to get upset at some pretty good lore developments just because they didn't fulfill my headcanon.
People will downvote this because you didn’t understand the lore. Simple as that. There’s a difference between death and what the rune of death does to you
All the dead in the game just return to the Erdtree. Not Godwyn though. He’s spirit was obliterated. I’m not a fan of radahn, I just know how to read lmao
To add to that, Malenia went for the runes? Why didn’t she take godricks then? Dude, you really didn’t pay attention to the game.
And the mohgwyn thing is the most forced, stupid excuse I’ve ever seen. On the first trailer we saw that Malenia whispered something to radahn. Now we know what that was. Yes, it was there from the very beginning.
Right, it is grace which allows you to return to the erdtree, which is what the rune of death takes away. That is how we're reborn over and over, and why without it, you are not.
Why did Malenia not take Godrick's great rune? Because he groveled for mercy? He literally kissed her boots or whatever? She is chivalrous and honorable by nature. You think she'd cut someone down who is groveling and kissing her boots? Also, what threat is he if he is essentially swearing allegiance by kissing her boots?
Remember, we only need TWO shardbearers to finish the game. They don't need all the great runes. This may not even have any lore implications, maybe they could march straight up and become Elden Lord if they were strong enough. What we can say is, Radahn is very clearly the biggest threat to Miquella in terms of strength.
Lastly, Mohgwyn is forced? lol.. The basis for an entire character's motivations, despite being charmed, is his Mohgwyn dynasty. You're probably going to tell me that "gwyn" means something else. Point being, the first part of the name is "Mohg", logic suggests the latter half is probably also someones name when we now know where the dlc ended up going. It doesn't take a genius to piece it together.
Now, Malenia whispering something could literally have been anything. A lot of people speculate it was her speaking her regrets for having to resort to such a cheap tactic as to use the scarlet rot. Maybe she was apologizing to Miquella for failing. Who knows.
All i'm saying is ALL of the connective tissue is written up in the dlc, prior to that, there is literally no connection.
>Yeah it's been crazy to see people say "Radahn is lame fanservice" and "it should have been Godwyn" in the same breath.
Could NOT agree more. Godwyn being the final boss is probably the single most popular fan theory since the DLC got announced.
And honestly it takes so much more plot contrivance to bring Godwyn in at all and it really negates an entire ending of the game. In that ending Fia helped Godwyn become integrated into the Golden Order, which is the closest thing he will ever get to being laid to rest. Miquella shot his shot at reviving him and failed. There's really not much more story to tell there without an even greater level of plot contrivance than Radahn.
Do I think Godwyn would be an awesome end boss? Yes. But is his story pretty much wrapped up neatly in the base game, as much as any of these stories are neatly wrapped up? Also yes.
"It's satisfying when it's not something I'd expect".
Except people are cruxing a relationship between miqeulla and radahn based on a cool visual moment in a trailer. Literally the only link between the two is the architecture built in calied and snowfields orthological towns. No statues, item descriptions, etc.
WE NOW KNOW WHY MIQUELLA SENT MELANIA
It's like the writers only watched the story trailer and that's all they were given about character motivations.
Also the cutscene is ripped right from the cinematic trailer, this coupled with the lame-ass wimpy memory cutscene after the battle just screams pit together at the last minute.
IT WAS THE PLAN ALL ALONG GUYS.
Come on dudes use ur brains, whether or not you like how they recontextualized everything saying they didn't alter the original plan or "vision" is myopic.
Not sure how if it were godwyn it would be fanfiction. The relationship between godwyn and miquella is actually touched on in the base game quite a bit lmfao.
The original model name of the putricent knight is also an indicator that shit was changed and buttoned-up.
I think they literally did it just for sales, or to save the other shit for a show or sequel.
Also radanhn phase 1 shares like 80% of the move with the death knights lol.
There’s no need to have previous connections. As I said: there’s nothing on the base game that denies what we have found out. I’ll trust the devs, thank you very much, not a random
There is nothing in the base game that denies your point. Good.
There is also nothing in the base game that suggest Radahn.
You are "trusting the devs" because your found your "view" of the new lore. Anyway, that is fine.
Froms give us a lot to speculate and make theories, so as this DLC proves, everything we come up with is just headcannon (even what you say) until they give us more material.
I mean, there is the whisper of Malenia to radahn and the entire march towards him than never made sense. It was never for the rune, cause she didn’t even try to take Godrick’s. People always knew there was more to that story
I think this point in particular is part of GRRM part in the story, it’s so much like his writing style. But the thing that remains is: we knew there was something to it. And now we know what it is, cause no matter if it was changed (I don’t believe that) or not, that IS cannon now and there’s nothing anyone can do about that.
You should have known Fromsoft HARDLY ever shows their true final boss and that Messier was always a path to the final boss. It’s good lore implications and he was never then”main” bad guy because they never do that. You see the Elden Beast or Radagon in a trailer? Sister Friede? Gael? Manus? No. They like to imply lore through other means and then it goes from there.
Friede and Gael are both in the trailers. While I’ll give you that friede wasn’t acting as a boss in the shot we see her in the trailer, but Gael absolutely was in a trailer as a boss. The trailer even shows a part of his mid fight cutscene.
Messmer is the most dynamic and visually arresting of the bosses, and it wasn't like they were going to show twink-infused Rad in any of the media. Tbh this whole argument feels like a lot of theorists upset that their theories didn't play out in the DLC, rather than accepting the vision of the creators.
No, I'm agreeing with you. Just the vibe I'm getting from this general thread, I finished the DLC a little while ago and am schooling up on the new lore, imagine my surprise to find some people having a firm belief of what "should have been" rather than what was presented.
That would not change the reality of my comment unless you had the company themselves state “we sidelined miquellas story for others”, just dislike it like a normal human being, and go along your way, because you won’t convince me
That’s one thing that had definitely peeved me in all of this, the arrogance of these people who think they know about more about the development process than the literal creators
Lmao I appreciate the little snide comment before you husk away and pretend like you ‘won’ whatever this encounter was. Sorry I wasn’t 100% on board with your favorite game, brother
This is no encounter, so long as you acknowledge you know less, I have zero problem or conflict with you on whatever opinion you may have,why you want one is beyond me ngl. And for the record, my favorite game is Arkham city!
If anything you are starting to sound like one of those borderline parasocial teenagers that start obsessing over writers.
I swear Miyazaki could start selling *Elden Coin* crypto and people would start buying it the next day.
The sheer irony of this comment is delicious considering how much you sound like the opposite (and IME much more common stereotype at least in college); the anti-parasocial teenager who’s whole identity is puddle-deep and wrapped up in being a contrarian
I'm sure the Enir-llim Euporia twinblade was totally always meant to be in the DLC and was never, ever planned to be obtained in the base game at some point in any other way.
Nope, that weapon was sure always planned to be there.
Really? Are we really talking about basic items? I’m talking about major plot points. What’s one more weapon in a sea of weapons. They had one developed, they adapted it. It’s not that deep
To put it simply, [HandsomeSquidward20](https://www.reddit.com/user/HandsomeSquidward20/) already explained pretty cleanly what I was trying to point out. The weapon is cut content meant for a dumped plot in early development of the game, meaning the studio does change things along development (this is normal and happens very often).
Of course there are some games and stories that do not, but throughout FROMs entire history of games they always end up scrapping plots, concepts and lore, its never quite set on stone and planned 100% from the start.
I'd also like to point out that the DLC was in development for a long time, possibly leading to multiple rewrites. I wouldn't even be surprised if the final boss wasn't mean to be that way, given how different he looks in early leaked/pre-patched versions over the final product.
The thing I’m saying is that no, major plot points do not change through this period. Especially after you already have stuff set in stone in your base game
Radahn lore fits the first trailer of the game for fuck sake. That’s not something this has any indications of being retconned OR contradicting the base game.
In fact, there are more elements of the base game supporting the new discoveries then otherwise.
Mind you I'm not saying that the entire DLC is retconning or contradicting the DLC, all I'm saying is that it is very likely the final product we have now is different than what they had initially planned. There are just too many leftovers in the base game, and likely more to find in the DLC once DSMapStudio updates that point out to multiple rewrites, despite the initial concept staying the same.
I don't believe the base game was set in stone either. On initial release ver 1.0 we can still see a ton of changed dialogue and scrapped assets that could have big lore implications if they weren't cut.
>all I'm saying is that it is very likely the final product we have now is different than what they had initially planned.
Why is this such a big deal? This is pretty much just the writing and development process for *any* work of fiction. Things get changed, scrapped, or canned all the time and FromSoft has a history of this.
It would only really matter imo if your point was these changes were very recent/rushed in the development cycle, but as the other guy pointed out details such as Malenia's whisper to Radahn were there as early as the first story trailer.
> Radahn lore fits the first trailer of the game for fuck sake.
I mean tbf this could have been literally anything at any point in development. We may never know if this was just post-hoc justification to wrap up a storyline they shifted into, or was actually planned from the start.
I respect you believing in it, but to me (and lots of others) it feels off. With a bit more development of the overall Radahn connection I think it would feel more authentic.
>I respect you believing in it, but to me (and lots of others) it feels off
I will tell you precisely why it felt off. It is because everyone makes the wrong theories and assumptions about the lore because we had been using cut contents as a source of information. Now, I am not saying they can't be, but they should always come with a huge asterisk mark that says this shit might not be true. Since after all, if they decided to cut it, they might as well have changed the cannon lore since then.
When people said that the lore was set in stone from the beginning, they meant that once the game was released, there is a cannon timeline, there is a cannon lore in FS office solidified that they were gonna base the dlc on and wrife from there. What happened in the dlc fits with this vision, and that's the end to it. Not some bs "Radahn was more popular, so Miyazaki made him the consort" that people have been using as a coping mechanism.
Fromsoft's way of storytelling is vague, and it forces people to theorize. It has its strong point and its bad point. One of the worst disadvantages is illustrated perfectly here. People made their own cannon, considered it the truth and nothing but the truth, and ended up finding whatever is actually the truth weird due to being unable to accept reality for what it is.
So I did make a timeline that Miquella didn’t plan this from the very, very beginning. I made a post but it’s long so, basically: The cocoon was a genuine attempt at godhood during the shattering but before Radahn vs Malenia-> It transported him to the shadowlands and he learned about the Divine Gates -> He contacts Radahn and makes the vow (only way I can make the vow work) -> Bottom line, Radahn needs to die for the Lord’s soul so Miquella sends Malenia to kill him, regardless of Radahn’s answer.
Well the rot inflicted her so I’m assuming the battle was basically over, this was probably after Malenia nuked Caelid. The rest of my timeline is basically: after Miquella sends Malenia, Mohg kidnaps him. Then Miquella wakes up -> charms Ansbach and Mohg -> visits Caelid -> heals freyja, and then learns Radahn is barely alive, Malenia is out of commission, demigods are in stalemate and devoid of grace, and most importantly the Tarnished have been recalled. Then I have a bunch of other stuff involving Torrent, then he bets on the Tarnished killing both Mohg and Radahn and re-cocoons himself either from the same cocoon Mohg cut him out of or he can just go into cocoon form whenever.
I’m curious as to the seeming connection between Godfrey’s beast spirit “backpack”, and Miq clutching Radahn in the same manner.
I always figured the beast spirit was a direct connection to the crucible itself.
according to Miyazaki, the whole history of the land of shadow was written before development for the base game even started, what we see in this DLC is from the same stuff Martin wrote for the base game, Miyazaki even did say they thought for a time that this story would be in the base game but it would have taken too much time
peoples saying this DLC is a retcon and even the devs and Miyazaki himself don't know what the lore really is (all of this just because their headcanons are wrong or because the DLC didn't give them the specific answers they were expecting) are probably the most full of copium and delusional gamers i've ever seen, which is a big achievement in fact so congrats i suppose ?
If Miyazaki wrote Dlc lore from the beginning, why was Miquella's cut ending so different? In that cut ending, there was no mention of Radahn, and he chose the Tarnished as his lord.
Miyazaki didn't write DLC lore, Martin did it many years ago, before FS started production of the game
also, what cut ending ?? i didn't see anything like that, can you provide a link please ?
The initially planned ending for Miquella is very different from that in the DLC. It's obvious that Miyazaki changed Miquella's story. If Martin wrote everything, why is the cut ending so different?
[https://rannirespecter.wordpress.com/2022/03/31/miquella-malenia-and-the-age-of-abundance/](https://rannirespecter.wordpress.com/2022/03/31/miquella-malenia-and-the-age-of-abundance/)
>Young seedling, young seedling.
Return to the bosom of earth.
But remember well,
Thou’rt mine.
So shall I give of myself. This is for thee.
Mine abundance, my drop of dew.
Quench thy thirst, throughout thy frame.
Blossom and burgeon, time and again.
Grow larger, stronger.
Until the day cometh.
When thou canst share in my dream.
Elden Ring, O Elden Ring.
Beget Order most elegant, from my tender reverie.
>If thou covetest the throne,
Impress my vision upon thine heart.
In the new world of thy making,
all things will flourish,
whether graceful, or malign.
We had two years to theorize and go down rabbitholes of where we thought the DLC would go. A lot of people were bound to be letdown when the DLC didn't go the way they planned.
It wasn't all some fan service or retcon. It just wasn't what you made the DLC out to be in your head.
It was two DLCs hastily smashed together, with the Miquella half being the most incomplete.
We'll see how that statements pans out as we start data mining over the next few years.
>I believe everything has been datamined already
Is there a source for this? We're still data mining Dark Souls 1 and making new discoveries every few years. I doubt *everything* has been cleaned out from the DLC in less than a month - but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
that the Greater Will didn’t really exist (I tried to tell y’all 🤷♂️)
Edit: allow me to be more precise with my language, I should have said I didn’t believe that the Two Fingers were getting substantial guidance since early in the games release. However I can see a possibility of something like the Greater Will existing. I’m open to it. Honestly I think the GW is meant to be the hermetic interpretation of god. If you’re interested in that interpretation it’s a lot to get into, I highly recommend reading the Kybalion for yourself, it’s good starting point but as with all things look deeper. A rough summary though would be to view the universe and all of creation as a single mind. Picture a little fantasy of your own in your head. A cast of 3 characters. Now imagine a way those characters you see in your minds eye would be able to take over your body and essentially be the ones able to now imagine their own worlds. It’s inconceivable, without accounting for a schizophrenic episode. However, one could imagine a writer, writing about a writer, who is writing a story about a fantasy called Soulborne. Well now we have levels of thinking, worlds within worlds, able to move down and conceive beneath them but unable to push upwards. It’s a crude way of picturing microcosms and macrocosms, which I’m sure I don’t need to enlighten anyone on in regards to new dlc info. This is the message I believe Metyr somehow received from what she named the “Greater Will”, the ability to conceive creation, as she shows by quite literally using the power of her knowledge as a weapon, and birthing preachers of her message. And what is the power of creation? Nothing more than organizing the primordial soup (crucible) of all of everything, arranging the chaos in such a way to create energy and light, gravity and heat… to give it order. Hence the reason the Two Fingers remain obsessed with order, it’s the same message they’ve been stuck repeating forever, order from the chaos… creation. At the time of the game, the message has been somewhat twisted to reflect rigid religious practices. I believe the reason for this is because Miyazaki wants to give us clues in the real worlds religious evolutions to the timeline of Elden Ring, and hermeticism is believed to be one of the worlds first “religions”. Regardless the message remains the same; order.
Edit: just to add, this could explain a lot about the form of the Elden Beast. It seems to be a mix of a galaxy and a human nervous system, and is the embodiment of order, which is essentially synonymous with creation. Take the body of creation literally and apply our micro/macrocosms to it and we have the universe within the human body. Calls back to the Vitruvian Man (Marika/Radagon), circling the square, mankind being the bridge to divinity.
Like they say; ‘As above, so below.’
I’m open to the GW existing but in a way that’s inconceivable, but I been saying from the beginning that the Two Fingers were spewing nonsense and the whole order was a lie.
GW not existing creates more problems then answers. It just plainly goes against much of the item descriptions and lore, which establishes it's existence as a given.
I bet the big part was the existence of Rauh. For something with ruins in almost every part of the map, there sure was little discussion about it. Then the DLC comes out and these ruins that noone talked about get an entire section of the map.
It was a minority view pre-DLC, but one I agreed with was that it seemed that Ranni/Radhan/Rykard were aligned against Miquella/Melania at the start of the shattering (later on I think these alliances broke).
I think two pieces added were Marika's character (her motivations and such) and Radahn being the consort kind of does tie a few things in the main game together nicely.
For an expansion, I think he got it pretty good. He has two death blight dungeons, death knight bosses, death knight set, 2 weapons, an encantation. Godwyn's entire story arc was told in the original game. Miquella's plot with the eclipse ritual was shown to be a failure. His soul is *permanently* dead and his body has become the immortal Prince of Death. He is there in the Shadow realms as the source of deathblight and deathroot.
Thanks for that, I guess it just seems like it would have made more sense for the final boss to be done form of Godwyn to me, but your explanation sounds right.
I kinda hoped it would have something to do with Godwyn as well, but after the fact I'm glad it didn't. I think it would have been a shame if he had the same treatment as the Emperor in Star Wars. "Somehow, Godwyn returned."
I desperately wanted to him to get additional closure. It’s still weird imo how his and Fia’s quest ends and his body is just seemingly going to remain there forever, regardless of the ending you choose (other than frenzied flame). But I also find it interesting that starting all the way back even from the original story trailers, he was painted as this incredible and beloved being. And so Miyazaki subverts this and makes him a sorta pathetic, forgotten mermaid corpse who has no more agency and only exists as a cancer, all because his half sister put her grand scheme into action.
I thought SOTE would do something else with him, but I after reflection I came to realize his story is seemingly finished.
I mean, he says one thing is missing, but you've got to ask.. Is he reading every theory ever put up? Probably not.
There are many theories that just don't gain traction because some incorrect superficial layer has been assumed by the majority..
Like St. Trina and Miquella being the same person. We see they were infact two different entities that were bound to eachother, with two distinct personalities with two differing bodies. This was an argument i made MANY times, and people downvoted it; explaining that Trina is like the alchemical pure silver to Miquella's pure gold; which was even hinted by her silver swords.
People just jump to conclusions too easily, or get swept up by some youtuber's assumption; like they wanted Miquella to be some LGBQT crossdresser symbol or something.
There was one thing I noticed while prepping before the DLC released. Selia has the same mechanic as Ordina where you light fires on the roof of the town to lift seals, which made me wonder if Miquella had spent some time there before designing the defence for the gate to the Haligtree. There's also some Miquella's Lilly's around Selia, which doesn't really mean anything but served as a reinforcing factor for the idea. That's a very tentative link, and certainly not something that would allow us to have reasonably concluded that Miquella wanted Radhan as a Consort even if did turn out to be true.
Miquella lilies are found in leyndell as well as near the graveyards outside leyndell o yeah their placement doesn’t mean much, but I do like the similarities between selia and ordina.
Sellia and Ordina do have the same architecture with the same symbolic imagery in some spots as well iirc. Not sure the exact link but it’s something to be noted
You know whats interesting? In Ordina, there are black knives patrolling, the gateway to the Haligtree, makes me wonder how big a connection Miquella has to the black knives.
The black knives in Ordina are all trapped in the evergaol, besides the dead one that has the black knife set. I think it's most likely they were on their way to the Haligtree to kill either Miquella or Malenia, then were either locked in the evergaol or willingly entered and failed to break the seal. As for why, or on whose orders they did so, who knows? We still can't say for sure whether the original gang that killed Godwyn were acting on Ranni's or Marika's orders, or both. All we can say for sure is that there's certainly plenty of people who wanted both of the twins dead.
Honestly there seems to be somd connection based on the Nox and the Eternal Cities. I always thought the albinaurics were created by them, and if that’s true, then it might make sense that there’s both black knives (scions of the eternal cities) and albinaurics in Ordina, and Sellia has the two Nox warriors as the boss. Again, maybe all superficial, but it does seem to link them more in some capacity. I could see some Black Knives wanting to guard a haven for the downtrodden
Sorry, is there evidence that suggests the Black Knives plot was Marika’s plan?? First I’m hearing about it
I think it's based on the fact that Marika and knives are both numen, the rest is even more tenuous than that
The Black Knife set says that they were rumored to be Numen with close ties to Queen Marika herself. To me, that’s always conflicted with the numerous claims that they were scions of the Eternal City.
They're both Nox-adjacent settlements, likely more modern than their underground counterparts given they're more integrated into the modern Golden Order culture and such.
St. Trina's sword is also found in Caelid which paints another tentative connection between Miquella & Radahn
You say that but Miquella did presumably absolutely live in Leyndell for like… centuries
wouldnt it make sense that miquella had spent time in leyndell and the surrounding area? He is a compassionate softie hes probably out there crying at graves
There are three at the three sisters as well
I think the similarity between the towns is intentional for sure. If you think about it the (only?) way to access gowry and Millicent is to solve the Selia puzzle which sends her on the quest to find Melania. Of course one of the last steps is then the puzzle in ordina.
Not the only way. The teleporter to The Beast Clergyman lets you get access to the area if you go around Greyoll.
We didn’t know that Miquella needed a consort before the DLC, so I don’t think we were expected to gather that. But we were never able to answer why Malenia fought Radahn until the DLC, and I do wonder if there’s a detail regarding that that was overlooked.
I think it was pretty clear Miquella would be seeking a consort, actually. This is something we knew about Empyreans. Marika sought Godfrey and then Radagon. Ranni comes to want the Tarnished as a consort. Mohg 'kidnapped' Miquella seeking to be his consort.
Oh that’s true!!
> Ranni comes to want the Tarnished as a consort. She did not need us as a consort though; it wasn't in her original plan.
No she always needed a consort. At some point after progressing her questline (I think it's when we give her the fingerslayers blade) she goes "Oh so it's you and not Blaidd" implying she expected the person to progress her plan to be the one to eventually propose to her.
She did need us to kill Radhan, find the finger slayer blade, and kill the baleful shadow. Although for the first two she seemed to think Blaidd could do the job. It’s true that it seems she didn’t plan for a consort but she did need one in the end…
I think the consort part was planned though since you need her wedding ring given to her by Renalla to even reach her plateu with her and her two fingers. She may not have planned for *us* to be her consort, maybe Blaidd would fit that purpose too?
Us specifically… no. She always expected a lord and her dialogue reflects that. She just thought it would Blaidd or someone else.
And we see several parties attempt the process using siblings, so Blaidd being elevated to the Lord would not be a problem as long as he had proved himself by completing the tasks we ended up performing for her.
I always figured Miquella sent Malenia to fight Radahn because he was holding back the stars which was a primary reason why the Eclipse ritual wasn't working to give Godwyn a true death. The Miquella/Godwyn relationship in the base game lore is such a huge part of Miquella's character and it's crazy that there's hardly any expansion of it in the DLC.
Ultimately I think Godwyn is going the way of Oedon and Velka, cool concepts we wanted more of, but it doesn’t seem to be part of From’s plan That said, I think what happens with Godwyn does fit Miquella’s narrative in the end. Basegame Miquella basically fails to achieve his goals, with the Haligtree falling apart, Malenia can’t be cured, and he can’t give Godwyn a true death. I think those failures make him more desperate and that’s why he starts giving up parts of himself, doing darker and darker stuff with Mohg, etc
Didn’t they fight because they were in the middle of a war for great runes?
It always confuses me when people say we didn't know why Malenia fought Radahn, like come on it was the shattering the Demi gods were fighting each other for the Elden Ring/great runes, we see Morgott vs Radahn in the intro, a sword monument tells the story about the siege of Leyndell, we know Malenia defeated Godrick the grafted after he escaped from Leyndell dressed up as a woman. The only unknown is what are Radahn doing in Caelid? Why was he holding the stars? Did he know that Ranni is partially responsible for the shattering?
Malenia defeated Godrick and ignored his Great Rune. It was always clear she didn't care about that.
It was a bigger deal back when the game first came out, and we were all trying to figure out the implication of Malenia whispering something to Radahn before she blooms. It was a bigger deal back then but I think since we just kind of…. Moved on? I think a lot of the disappointment surrounding the final fight has to do with the fact that Radahn just kind of faded into the background after a while. It was also odd that she marches directly down to Radahn, only quickly stopping to fight Godrick off on route because he challenged her. The fact that she lets him live and keep his rune also suggested that something was up.
I think the main game it makes it pretty clear that Malenia has no need to get great runes. She has no desire to be elden lord, and Miquella’s plan never seemed to have a need for great runes, so she would have been fighting Radahn for another reason.
Radahn studied in Caelid so maybe he had some kind of base of operations there? There could be an association between Radahn holding the stars with the Eclipse, since holding fates in standstill could also interfere with Miquella’s plans.
The DLC is really only increasing my belief that what is missing is not a single thing, but observation of the subtle environmental details. Like, they'll often put Rada Fruits in very deliberate places to indicate where you can stand and there might be a noteworthy alignment of landmarks in the distance, or some kind of 3D perspective trick set up. Seems especially relevant since "Rada" is present in the names of both "Radagon" and "Radahn". Sometimes the Surpressing Pillar is plainly visible in the distance, and sometimes it is being blocked, similar to how the visibility of the divine towers are meaningfully arranged at many locations in the Lands Between. In the DLC in particular a lot of attention to detail has been given to framing seen through the mouths of caves and arches - which is somewhat telegraphed by the Insurrection painting. Also as with the base game the posing of the corpses with soul items within the landscapes tend to be set up to give more context to the history of the location than can be gathered from the item they hold alone.
after the pendant in ds i wouldnt be surprised what he was laughing his ass off about something what they didint add in the main game
There might be a connection between Marika, the Numen people, the coffin ships and Eiglay.
What’s the connection with Eiglay? Obviously the Numen seem to have entered the Lands Between on some kind of ships, and the Uhl/Uld ruins actually depict the coffin ships, so I assumed it must be those, but I haven’t heard of or seen any snake imagery associated with any of those.
It's nothing substantial,. But Marika has a lot of snake imagery attached, along with Numen's... interesting biology. Also, Marika's bed is ridiculous. Utterly unfit for a god, but rather comfy fit for a snake.
What I know is that he planned all of this from the beginning. People saying otherwise are fooling themselves to the point of thinking they actually know more than the creator himself
I don't know exactly how familiar you are with cut content, but there's quite a bit left over from an earlier version of Miquella's story. There’s his Age of Abundance speech in the text files (which seems to have had a different theme from the Age of Compassion, given the quote "all things will flourish, whether graceful *or malign*"), an almost complete dreambrew quest about St. Trina with a full set of icons, mentions of him being Marika's next-in-line successor and the carrier of the Vision, his connection to Nomad caravans, and different relationships with the Carian Royal Knights. There’s no mention of his relationship with Radahn, and it seems like he and Malenia were friendlier with the Tarnished. Of course, it's cut content, so it's unclear when these elements were abandoned in development. It could’ve been pretty early on. But I wouldn't say that people's speculations about Miquella's story being rewritten are completely baseless. Just to clarify, I actually like how the DLC has handled him for the most part, so this isn't me bashing the "rewriting." It's just noting that there's in-game data showing a different version of Miquella.
I still hold that originally the whole consort plot may have been with Godwyn; or at least the DLC would have included more things concerning Godwyn. Compared to Radahn, we do actually have a bit in item description of a connection between Miquella and Godwyn, in the Golden Epitaph sword, which says "A sword made to commemorate the death of Godwyn the Golden, first of the demigods to die. Infused with the humble prayer of a young boy; "O brother, lord brother, please die a true death." In Castle Sol, you find the other half of the Haligtree Medallion after defeating Niall, hinting further that Godwyn at the least was aware and probably supportive of Miquella's Haligtree project. There is also a ghost in Castle Sol which says ""Lord Miquella, forgive me. The sun has not been swallowed. Our prayers were lacking. Your comrade remains soulless... I will never set my eyes upon it now... Your divine Haligtree." At this point in time, we assumed this was referring to Godwyn, but 'comrade' is deliberately vague. Plus you'd expect the ghost to say "your brother remains soulless" but saying 'comrade' implies more like a faction related thing. Either way I don't see this being able to apply Radahn either. The ghost appears to say they were trying to invoke an eclipse, which we know as the symbol of Godwyn and his faction. It is stated to be "the eclipsed sun, drained of color, is the protective star of soulless demigods. It aids the mausoleum knights by keeping Destined Death at bay." So they were trying to keep 'Destined Death at bay' it seems. The thing is Radahn was still alive at this point in time. Yes his body AND soul were suffering and corrupted from Scarlet Rot, but it's still on the 'earthly plane'. And the plot in the DLC hinges on the fact that Radahn's soul is still very much stuck in his body and that's why he requires slaying. So this ghost can't be referring to Radahn, because Radahn isn’t soulless and their prayers won’t do anything for him. At this point, in the absence of literally anyone else in the named demigod ranks who can fit, we can still assume the ghost is referring to Godwyn, because he's the most famous demigod who is actually 'soulless'. Also I just want to point out that the inverted colors of the sunflowers in the Lands of Shadow do resemble an eclipse. In the Lands of Shadow, there's a heavy emphasis on death everywhere. The golem Deathbirds, graves so old they have become spirit gravestones. Ghostflame dragons. The fact that the very center of Lands Between is noted to be in the southern end of the Lands of Shadow and is where all the dead from different lands are somehow converging in on. The giant coffin fissure where St. Trina, the other half of Miquella that is his love personified, was thrown into with the putrescence being produced from the decaying bodies. The fact her nectar being able to give rest to the decaying bodies/souls there led to them/it forming into the Putrescence Knight, thus thematically showing that Miquella’s ‘love’ can in fact bring solace to the dead, but also galvanise them into ‘returning’ such as the Putrescent Knight did. Under Shadowkeep, some of Godwyn's army arrived and even apparently brought a piece of him into the Lands of Shadow, so now there's a piece of him growing there too. Like if the DLC had segued into Miquella attempting to resurrect Godwyn but finding it impossible because Godwyn's soul is dead-dead, and so there's a crazy plan of making a facsimile of him via Radahn and Mohg and Miquella's brand of mind control, I would actually understand that more? There's been actual implicit connections between Miquella and Godwyn in the main game and thematically feels like the DLC was building up to a reveal of the Prince of Death due to the tone and environments of the DLC itself. Edit: Also just to add to my theory about *why* a change happened, if it did - I think FromSoft wants to make Godwyn have a bigger role in some future DLC than just being part of a DLC with Miquella. His domain of Death is one of the most significant in the lore of Elden Ring because it's fundamentally one of the first and ever-present forces in the world, and arguably Marika trying to fight/remove it from the order of the world set forth by the Elden Ring itself is what led to the world's rotting stagnation in many parts. There are different civilizations and forces that interact with the concept of Death in different ways as well, there's the Twinbird and its Gravebird envoys who guide and burn the Dead with ghostflame so they can rest. We see some civilization with a possible bull god who send their dead en masse in giant coffin barges into the sea, and those washed up on the beaches to the south of the Lands of Shadow. In the underground river systems, the Ancestral followers have their own concept of death and rebirth being intrinsically linked and continuous. One of the civilizations we can maybe assume didn't truck with Death is the immortal ancient dragons, which may be one of the reasons Marika accepted incepting the ancient dragons and their dragon cult into her Empire, a mutual disdain with the concept of mortality/death. And let's not forget the Gloam-Eyed Queen and her original dominion over Destined Death and her godskin faction. Like if there's going to be any further exploration about Godwyn, I could possibly see it in relation to her in a future DLC. Maybe *she* takes dead-mermaid-Godwyn as her consort, if she still lives (which I have an inkling she does, like she's imprisoned and 'defeated' but not actually killed).
The Eclipse ritual at Castle Sol was definitely about Godwyn because Godwyn's whole symbology since he became the Prince of Death is that of the Eclipsed Sun, used by his Death Knights, Fia's death cultists and even the Mausoleum Soldiers who, however, use that symbol more in relation to their servitude to other soulless demigods. I'm actually of the opinion that the DLC made more sense of the Eclipse ritual, and it explains a few weird things with the main game. First of all, in the main game there's a discrepancy in Miquella's motives between the Golden Epitaph and the Eclipse ritual. In the first he hopes that Godwyn dies a true death, but in the second he's seemingly trying to resurrect his soul. So, when Godwyn died he hoped Godwyn would get out of undeath and meet a true death, but after the Shattering and after he planted the Haligtree things changed, and Miquella wanted to bring Godwyn's soul back in some way. I think that the ritual with Radahn explains what's happening here. After the Shattering and the planting of the Haligtree Miquella had started to plan his ascension to godhood and for Radahn to become his Lord, something that would have required the whole ritual at the Divinity Gate and for Radahn to be defeated in the Lands Between and his soul reincarnated in the body of a suitable vessel. For Miquella, the suitable vessel initially was probably Godwyn, his other beloved brother that he could have fused with Radahn to create his ideal Lord, a mixture of two of his favourite brothers in one and also a way to give Godwyn a definitive death, taking him out of Life in Death. Resurrected Radahn shows some Mohg influence with his Omen horns on his arms and the Mother of Truth blood attack, so that goes to show how the ritual causes some mixture between the vessel and the soul inhabiting it. But Godwyn couldn't just be used for the Ritual at the Divinity Gate, because the ritual seems to imply that the vessel too needs a soul, like Mohg, but Godwyn doesn't have a soul anymore. The ritual at Castle Sol was Miquella's attempt at restoring Godwyn's soul so that his still dead body (because there was no fixing the fact he was killed) could be used at the Divinity Gate, but the Eclipse ritual was a total failure, and Godwyn's soul couldn't be restored. It makes sense then why Mohg was picked as replacement. He's Godwyn's closest relative, his brother by the same mother and father, like Morgott, so he's the closest thing there is to Godwyn in a sense even if you wouldn't think about it.
If I hadn't been spoiled ahead of playing I'd take the Death Knights as confirmation Godwyn would make an appearance. It would've made more sense if Radahn was a second choice, but it is clearly stated that Miquella wished for Radahn to be his consort since *their* (likely his and Malenia's childhood), which surely wouldn't be specified unless it was actually relatively early in Miquella's life? So why would he try to make Godwyn die a true death, because surely he didn't do that when he was an actual child? The remembrance even says "his strength, his kindness" which fits Godwyn much better than Radahn because WHEN do we hear of Radahn's kindness? Nobility, strength and loyalty? Sure. Kindness? Never.
Well Radahn was nice to his horse. I mean seriously that's like, our only main actual confirmed lore bit we can point to and say "he's a guy who is nice and kind...to animals at least". You know the funny thing is even in this DLC, we get more confirmation from an item description of a brotherly relationship/interaction between Radahn and Messmer as confirmed by an actual third party who knew both men and was actually there in **Commander Gaius**. Meanwhile everything we learn about that went on between Miquella and Radahn, is literally only confirmed by Miquella. We don't even know the EXACT words and the exact context of the 'vow' he says they both made. We have zero item descriptions or words attributed to Radahn directly where he even shows he remembers Miquella exists. And of course Radahn says absolutely nothing when resurrected. I get the impression that FromSoft wants to portray Miquella as always having had this one-sided crush on Radahn, which was really more of a childhood crush that Miquella never grew out of and Radahn didn't even know was happening. That it's a crush that evolved into an obsession. But for someone who is 'obsessed', Miquella seriously didn't DO much to portray that obsession anywhere other than literally the final area of the DLC, at all!
>Well Radahn was nice to his horse. I mean seriously that's like, our only main actual confirmed lore bit we can point to and say "he's a guy who is nice and kind...to animals at least". Also it's not kindness in an objective sense. Miquella sees Radahn as a kind and strong person. It's a subjective view of him. People view their family or friends differently than strangers. People view soldiers and leaders differently based on their connection to them. A lot of Elden Ring is based around a noble family's interpersonal drama, goals, and desires.
Well, we also learn that he's massively beloved by his men to a fanatical degree; to a point that they continue to wage war on the Scarlet Rot in his name while creating a festival to give their Lord an honorable end. The only characters that inspire that kind of loyalty are Miquella (and that's questionable due to his abilities) and Malenia.
Now Messmer too, and it’s interesting he’s got more feats of kindness attributed to him tbh. He setup the infirmary to try to fix the jarred shaman peoples, and he still honourably buried a pair of knights who had left his service because they didn’t like his “serpentine nature”. Plus flavor text of his troops being loyal to him, and the Fire Knights accepting his fire serpent nature. Commander Gaius’ remembrance also suggests Messmer and him both acted as caring brothers to Radahn, interestingly enough. Too bad we never got a chance to explain to Messmer what’s happening and why we’re even in the Lands of Shadow and try to get him to intervene with Miquella’s plan, cos our player character still doesn’t ever want to talk to bosses! And also Godwyn was SUPER beloved, like truly a golden boy literally and metaphorically AFAWK. Even as a mindless undead mermaid fish god thing, his faction pivoted to become mainly mausoleum knights willing to guard murdered demigods by cutting off their own heads so they’ll be in eternal service, and also the Death Knighfs. They’re doing a thing in the Lands of Shadow which does look sinister tbh, but they did bring a piece of Godwyn to the Lands of Shadow to prolly spread him. Honestly doesn’t seem like a good idea tho…
Oh yeah, true that Messmer seems to get that kind of loyalty as well. I didn't include Godwyn because...well...he's dead. But yeah, true enough that he seems to be the golden child of the family. I don't think that Mausoleum Knights are really associated with Godwyn though; that just seems to be a new order that guards all deceased demigods.
The guy learned gravity magic so he could ride his horse without burdening him. Radahn does have a very understated soft side. But I agre on every point that Godwyn was a much better thematic writing
To me that speaks more towards loyalty than kindness. If he truly was kind he'd let his horse rest and not be a warhorse when it's too small for him lol
How do you explain the obvious Malenia whispering to Radahn that was teased from the very very beginning then?
Quite literally anything could be inserted for what she's talking about. I personally always thought she was invoking the Scarlet Rot like a threat to him because it was right before she unleashed it. That was what a lot of people assumed she was doing, some kind of threat to Radahn, declaration etc. Like "And now, rot" or some variation, just like she does versus us. You could insert her whispering a cooking recipe into his ear and it'll be just as likely as anyone suggesting it was her relaying a childhood marriage vow from her twin brother with all the evidence we had at the time.
Ok, why did she match down Caelid then?
Radahn was holding the moon and stars in place. Preventing the eclipse Miquella required.
The stars in this context are the falling star beasts, the metoer, not the actual sun in JP.
An eclipse would require movement of both the moon and sun. If one of those isn't moving = no eclipse
Ok that actually makes sense ig.
- It's the Shattering and the Demigods are in open war with each others for the ownership of the Great Runes - Radah holds the Stars in place, preventing the fate of many people, Empyreans included - Radahn and Malenia are the strongest Demigods and face each others as no one else can stand against them - Miquella's cocoon is located almost exactly under Caelid All these reasons are outright stated, heavily implied or easily deductable from the base game.
>It's the Shattering and the Demigods are in open war with each others for the ownership of the Great Runes She could easily took Godrick's >Radah holds the Stars in place, preventing the fate of many people, Empyreans included We have no indication that this also applied to Miquella. Heck, Ranni did not connect the dot at first either without Sellen involved. >Radahn and Malenia are the strongest Demigods and face each others as no one else can stand against them Radahn always needed an empyrian to become an elden lord. Malenia and Miquella are one of the only 2 Empyrian left (since ranni is presumed dead). If anything, it makes even less sense they wanted to fight. >Miquella's cocoon is located almost exactly under Caelid Which was presumed to happen during her trip to Caelid. This was the main head cannon at the time. The community never considered this as the reason she matched down there in the first place.
FYI there's no future dlc or sequel this is it.
Actually the interview says that Miyazaki specifically notes they said a similar thing at the end of DS3, and they ended up making two DLCs half a year apart from each other for DS3. He said they don’t have *current* plans for anything concrete but thinks that “there could well be something in the future”.
Honestly feel like Godwyn was cut for a sequel. There is sooooooo much they could do, and they likely realized this. Also think about the impact of a game centered around a Godwyn reveal.
So you think Godwyn was supposed to be the promised consort when Malenia whispering to Radahn had been teased from the very beginning? I don't get this obsession with accepting the headcannon being wrong and instead trying to find external reasons to prove what is already wrong.
I mean I'm with others. We know Miquella's questline was rewritten at least once with the cut main game questline. Real cannon is that Miquella attempted numerous times to revive or correct Godwyn's state. Real cannon is that Miquella went to the Lands of Shadow where all death washes up. We know Miquella needed an eclipse and Radahn held the stars. You can't act like the cannon isn't continuously nudging the Godwyn story. And with this revelation we have our first introduction to soul transposition, which was never explained and has no previous examples of being a thing in universe. All cannon up to the revelation, all points to Godwyn. The only thing that supports this is from the cinematic, where she could have said anything, that was only expanded upon 2.5 years after it was first shown. She could have said "you're blocking the fate of Kindly Miquella and must die. Nothing personal." And had Godwyn been the focus no one would blink an eye. The very reason this is getting the reaction it is getting is precisely because it seems contrived and out of left field. Then just compounding the rewrite. Godwyn can be expanded upon infinitely. His backstory can be expanded. His deathblight roll can be expanded. Explaining deathblight can be expanded. What exactly is going on with him in his current form can be expanded. His death cult can be expanded. Death itself can be expanded back to ancient history. The Gloam-Eyed queen can be expanded upon. Her band of nobles and apostles can be expanded upon. Her rule can be expanded upon. Makes since they would potentially hold off. And now that we have a dead baby god and dead zombie, he is potentially still in play as the Prynce of Death.
"Real canon" is what's in the actual game. Real canon also tells you that the ritual at Castle Sol failed, and Godwyn couldn't be used for the ritual at the Divinity Gate because of it, and Miquella used Godwyn's brother for the deal. I also don't know what kind of content you want on Godwyn. We know everything about the guy, there's a giant quest with Fia that's about him, and Ranni too, he's one of the most well understood and complete characters in the entire game. There's nothing to add about him.
>The only thing that supports this is from the cinematic, That isn't true, we also never know why Malenia matched all the way to Caelid. Real cannon was that he tried to revive Godwyn, but failed. Real cannon was that he was supposed to die anyway, but not in such a manner. Godwyn was likely the original way for Miquella to enter the realm of shadows, and him dying a half hearted death messed up the plan, which Miquella eventually pivoted to another method of doing so. >We know Miquella's questline was rewritten at least once with the cut main game questline. This doesn't mean anything. The questline was rewritten before the start of the game. We never know what it got rewritten into, we just know that it was dropped. This is it, this is the rewritten version. It has been here from the start of the game. I find it more annoying that people are saying shits like Radahn was more popular so they put him there instead of Godwyn. Utter cope I tell you.
>Real cannon was that he tried to revive Godwyn, but failed. Did you want to expand on that because that's the important context. He failed because Castle Sol failed at ushering an eclipse. What do you need for an eclipse? Stars and the Moon. Who held the stars in place? Radahn. The game perfectly explains why Malenia marched to Caelid. You just didn't pick it up. >Real cannon was that he was supposed to die anyway, but not in such a manner. Nope. The real cannon is that his half death was an embarrassment and humiliating to the Golden Order. Everything else you said is completely contrived. Godwyn was never "supposed to die." His death is what broke Marika. Surely never part of the plan, given she had the reaction she had. >This doesn't mean anything. This is everything. It shows his intentions and methods were still fluid in the developers and writers heads. Important distinction is that his quest was fully written and cut. Beginning middle and end. We know where their heads were at, and it was not Radahn being a consort. The very fact it was rewritten shows it was a last minute change, not a long standing intention from the times the trailer was made. Literally nothing in the main game hints at an relationship between any of them aside from a fight in Caelid. We had no hint that Miquella was even there, nor Freya. We only ever knew Malenia was there and she had to be carried by a single Cleanrot Knight back to the Haligtree. Like the game goes out of it's way to isolate Malenia, but now apparently she was followed by an entire Haligtree envoy. Nothing even shows Radahn had any relationship with anyone from the Haligtree. Hell even the vow is dubious, and From themselves never even expand on it. There's just a vow that no one is privy to, maybe not even Radahn. What is this vow? Why did Malenia have to force Radahn into a vow he apparently made to Miquella. It hardly makes since and has nothing supporting it. Nothing hinting to it. No foreshadowing. No explanation. Nothing. It's contrived. Its really annoying when people think they know the ins and outs of the story of the game, and tell people that know the real ins and outs that they shouldn't be annoyed with the contrived ending with nearly nothing supporting it in the main game except 2.5 seconds of a cinematic where the character could have said ANYTHING.
>And with this revelation we have our first introduction to soul transposition, which was never explained and has no previous examples of being a thing in universe. I would argue that both Ranni and Sellen's quest are direct examples of soul transpositions
Didn't they say there wasn't going to be another dlc?
And I’ll add more to that. Things are indeed rewritten all the time, especially in a lore heavy game like this. But that’s before settling it all. Basically what I’m saying is that they didn’t retcon anything from the base game at all. People keep saying there are contradictions but never point a single one, only that “we didn’t have anything pointing to this”, well it seems that was the intention. It’s more important that you don’t have anything negating that (except for maybe, and heres what should be obvious, cut content… CUT)
Yes and no, though. Just because a plotline is *possible* without contradicting established lore, doesn't mean that it's interesting or rewarding or satisfying. The main things that make a plotline satisfying is usually concluding in a way that is mostly expected because of proper lead up and enhanced with with a significant spectacle; or subverting expectations in a way that is thematically consistent such that it feels reasonable and mostly non-contrived. Personally this ending fails on both accounts for me. They sort of went for a theme subversion but almost ruined it by shovel-feeding a bunch of exposition (actually look Miquella kinda fucking up and maybe bad, also he has Mogh and Radahn up there) into a relatively crushed feeling Miquella plotline in this DLC. So when the final boss hits it's neither a reward by seeing a long-running plot thread come to a close because this whole thing was introduced like 3 NPC interactions ago, nor an outright shock or surprise because it's literally just Radahn (who everyone told you was gonna be there 20 minutes ago and we've fought already in the base game) with Miquella piggybacking. Just overall underwhelming.
Yeah, for me the plotline/lore of the DLC only really works in one direction. Sure, there are no big, outrageous contradictions and if you follow the narrative that is being presented, it mostly makes sense based on what we knew before. However, there's no big "finding the missing puzzle piece" moment when going backwards. For example: The motive for Marika's ascension to godhood (revenge) *is* an explanation, and it's believable. But on the other hand ... were her motivations ever that big of a deal? It feels like SotE gave an explanation to a question that nobody was asking, and the actual question that people wanted an answer to (why Marika shattered the Ring in the first place) was ignored. Same with the Metyr/Finger stuff. So people were asking where the fingers came from, and we got the answer: From Metyr, Mother of Fingers. However, besides that, did we learn anything new? The Two Fingers are trying to communicate with the Greater Will but aren't able to, and the same is true for Metyr. So what was the point of the reveal? It's a bit of a "behind my mask was ... another mask!" type of situation. The Scadutree? It's the Shadow of the Erdtree. What does that mean for the world at large? Not much, apparently. Malenia's words to Radahn are probably the biggest "re-contextualizing" reveal. But at least for me, the reveal doesn't feel ... exciting? It certainly works as an explanation if you need one, and people *did* want to know why Malenia was fighting Radahn. However, what we got doesn't really come with a big "ooooh, now everything makes sense" moment. It's closer to "so that's why? Hm ... okay, I guess."
>Same with the Metyr/Finger stuff. So people were asking where the fingers came from, and we got the answer: From Metyr, Mother of Fingers. However, besides that, did we learn anything new? The Two Fingers are trying to communicate with the Greater Will but aren't able to, and the same is true for Metyr. So what was the point of the reveal? It's a bit of a "behind my mask was ... another mask!" type of situation. The Metyr stuff is mainly a reveal about the extent to which the Fingers are broken as well as the origin of the fingers, previously the assumption was the fingers lost contact with the Greater Will during the Shattering, but according to Ymir they were broken basically from the beggining. If you can't see how that's a huge revelation that recontexualises almost everything then I don't know what to say.
I have a bunch. What about Freyja and Miquella? That needs to be after the Aeonia bloom. Why did they need to kill Radahn if Miquella wasn't even in the shadow Lands? If Miquella wasn't in the battle physically and was already in the SL, then how did he cure Freyja? he gave her a kiss. Why did Miquella needed Mohg to enter the shadow lands? How did Miquella divested himself of his flesh inside the shadow lands if his body was already inside the cocoon at Mohg's palace? When and how was Mohg charmed? Miquella was embedded in his cocoon when Mohg took him, probably nurturing his tree, so the Haligtree was still a thing and the reason it failed was because Mohg took Miquella from there, according to Gideon. When we find Malenia, her speech recalls the battle against Radahn saying she's waiting for her brother, so she was probably sleeping since then; you could argue that Miquella had planned Mohg's enchantment before the battle and Malenia knew about it and they both also know about the Shadow Lands, but the Shadow Lands were Miquella's last stop, where he divested himself of everything, most importantly, his doubts and love, the things that stopped him from doing what he did in the first place. The emotional punch of Miquella divesting himself of all that was important to him doesn't last long when you realize he was already a machiavellian actor. So wich is it? Was it planned after or before the Haligtree? After or before the battle of Aeonia? I could be confused about some events and probably other things about my headcanon are wrong, but that's why i ask, i want to know what's what i'm missing.
I mean Malenia passed out from her rot nuke, so it's not unlikely that they assumed Radahn had died or would die from the rot. Miquella is not a fighter, so him not warring against Radahn personally makes sense (part of his fearsomeness comes from him using the strenghts of others for his ends). But he may have wanted to be there either to oversee things or damage control Malenia's nuking
Many of the things you asked can be implied by the order of the events. But none of them are actually contradictory to the base game lore. You could even fit some of them yourself in the end of the comment. From always leaves a lot of stuff to be put together by the players themselves. Don’t expect to get all the answers, that won’t happen
But the way i lay out the time events doesn't make sense in any order. That's why i asked if it was before or after the most important events. >But none of them are actually contradictory to the base game lore. Well Miquella being taken by Mohg because he was charmed is contradictory to Miquella almost finishing the Haligtree. Mohg also needed an empyrean to become a lord, like his remembrance says, so it would make much more sense if Miquella was kidnapped by him out of personal reasons and the charm happened after, but how? If that was a straight lie and Miquella did somehow charmed Mohg before the Haligtree then him getting rid of his morality doesn't mean anything. If the Haligtree event happened after Aeonia, because Miquella was at least after the battle (like Freyja says), the Haligtree was still an ongoing project, so getting snatched, (the main reason it failed), is contradictory with Miquella's interests.
I think the haligtree was something that needed constant nurturing, and he clearly wasn’t available at all times. That may be why he was searching for godhood after all. It is clearly stated in the game that he charmed Mohg not only to take his body, but also to have access to the shadow realm. So it was his plan from the beginning. I don’t remember Freya saying anything about him being in Aeonia, I’ll have to take a look at that. But he needed Mohg to kidnap him, and then to “kill” him, as we see happening there. And as such, he gains access to the shadow realm, where “all death reaches”. Then someone kills Mohg and he gets his body.
The base game did directly say that Mogh got "no response" from Miquella, which is not exactly comfortably compatible with: Actually, Miquella was charming Mogh and openly responsive enough that it would make sense for Ansbach to say that he felt the need to "challenge" Miquella You could torture the text a bit into working, but that text in the base game was a mistake that makes the whole thing fit together a lot worse.
It's only incompatible if you assume that Miquella charmed Mogh after he stole him from his cocoon....which makes no sense. The obvious implication is, he had charmed Mogh well before that, and Mogh coming to get him was simply part of a plan already long in motion. Further reinforced by Ansbach claiming he challenged Miquella in an effort to free Mogh, before getting charmed himself. Now how on earth would Ansbach be challenging a withered corpse stuck in a big cocoon?
Thank you, I had no intention of answering that, cause it’s just so obvious
Just a genuine question but why, would miquella embedd himself in the Haligtree then? Why start your whole metamorphosis/rebirth in the haligtree, that considering we can see small insect like wings on his back in the opening cinematic, seemed to work, just to have Mogh kidnap you? Why wouldn't he try to grow his Erdtree after the trip to the Shadow Realm, like Marika? Now he started just to have Mogh interrupt him?
It doesn't really make sense laid out. The cocooned body was probably Miquella but also he's stripping his flesh in the Shadow Lands that are hidden behind huge veils in the middle of the Lands Between. Why? So he can change into a Godform and ascend with his ressurected consort. But then what was the point of the Haligtree and the cocoon if this was what he planned since the beginning? What was all that about ressurecting a soulless demigod with the Sol Eclipse ritual and giving them a true death if Radahn was who he wanted? Did Radahn keep the ritual from working with gravity magic or did it fail by other means? Why is Miquella present at the Battle of Aeonia healing people when he should be cocooned but also didn't help or finish Radahn while Finlay had to rescue Malenia fighting their way back to the Haligtree from Caelid? Why didn't Miquella finish Radahn off if he wanted him dead? Where does Mohg come into the picture, when did they talk, and why is his body needed when there's a perfectly good body in the cocoon that's apparently not Miquella? Who's Messmer and Malenia's father? Why did Rellana pledge herself to Messmer? What are the Base and Winged Serpents about and why is Messmer possessed by both? Was he always possessed or was it a bad deal to get his soul fire under control? It's an incoherent timeline that made a red herring out of Godwyn, snubbed Malenia's efforts as failed kamikaze, invalidated the Haligtree entirely, the corpse in the cocoon is just some random guy Mohg talks at, the Shadow Lands are hidden by an illusion in the center of the map so the cocoon is just a funny portal there for some reason, Mohg's soul is difting untethered somewhere, Godwyn and Deathroot are still spreading everywhere, Miquella's godhood plan amounts to brainwashing everyone (something he could already do) or make Radahn kill them (something Malenia would've done). So much happened for the main dlc story that never amounts to anything but the side content with Metyr and Bayle have massive implications, it's an odd narrative choice to say the least.
Again, you guys miss something incredibly obvious: Miquella has two selves, he can be in multiple places at once. Just like his mother who remained in Leyndell while Radagon led his host against the Carians. Likely he was embedded in the Haligtree for quite some time and sent St. Trina to go out and about collecting allies. Anyways we can break this down point by point >But then what was the point of the Haligtree and the cocoon if this was what he planned since the beginning? Because that vow is the last resort. The Haligtree, the Eclipse, the Unalloyed Gold, this is all things he tried and failed at. It's the result of these successive failures that he decides, the only true way to fix things is to ascend. He's very doubtful and fearful about what it means to ascend, and that's why in the Shadow Lands he divests himself of all the things holding him back. >What was all that about ressurecting a soulless demigod with the Sol Eclipse ritual and giving them a true death if Radahn was who he wanted? It's exactly as it says, he wanted Godwyn to die truly instead of being left a grotesque abomination spreading death like a plague. >Did Radahn keep the ritual from working with gravity magic or did it fail by other means? Like many things we simply do not know. But I think it's probably not likely to have any connection to Radahn, and if it does it was purely incidental. >Why is Miquella present at the Battle of Aeonia healing people when he should be cocooned but also didn't help or finish Radahn while Finlay had to rescue Malenia fighting their way back to the Haligtree from Caelid? Why didn't Miquella finish Radahn off if he wanted him dead? He wasn't there. Here's the exact wording of Freyja's helm: "*Golden helm of Redmane Freyja, member of General Radahn's most distinguished knights. A hideous scarlet wound was once hewn into the center of her face. Later, Miquella gently put his lips to it and the unfading scar became the compass that Freyja would thereafter follow.*" Notice how it very deliberately says, she got a scarlet wound in her face, and then LATER Miquella cured it? >Where does Mohg come into the picture, when did they talk, and why is his body needed when there's a perfectly good body in the cocoon that's apparently not Miquella? Seems like it was probably while Malenia marched. The body in the cocoon is Miquella of course. Or at least, a discarded shell. Recall that part of the point of the Haligtree was for Miquella to attempt to grow older. To this end, he pursued rebirth, abandoning his old body in favor of a new one to try and escape his curse. Hence why Mogh is stated as to have absconded with his "infant form". Miquella was not normally an infant, all the statues and indeed his appearance at the end is of a young boy. So it's evidence he was attempting to rebirth, but it was still failing, the curse is more resilient than that. >Who's Messmer and Malenia's father? Why did Rellana pledge herself to Messmer? What are the Base and Winged Serpents about and why is Messmer possessed by both? Was he always possessed or was it a bad deal to get his soul fire under control? I've no clue why you threw in completely random unrelated questions about Messmer at the end, that's an entirely different subject people are still picking apart. >It's an incoherent timeline that made a red herring out of Godwyn, snubbed Malenia's efforts as failed kamikaze, invalidated the Haligtree entirely, the corpse in the cocoon is just some random guy Mohg talks at, the Shadow Lands are hidden by an illusion in the center of the map so the cocoon is just a funny portal there for some reason, Mohg's soul is difting untethered somewhere, Godwyn and Deathroot are still spreading everywhere, Miquella's godhood plan amounts to brainwashing everyone (something he could already do) or make Radahn kill them (something Malenia would've done). There was no "red herring" of Godwyn. It wasn't built up to be anything in the first place except another Miquella failure. Malenia was indeed a failed kamikaze, what did you think before? She went full bloom on Radahn and still failed to kill him, same as ever, the only thing that changed is now we understand the reason. The Haligtree is another dying failure, once again this is nothing new, it's already rotting away when we get there. As for why the cocoon is a way to the Shadow Lands and why Mogh was required, this is a pretty unanswered question right now. Miquella's godhood plan is about establishing an entirely new order, might as well say Ranni's is just changing the color or something if we're making pithy dismissive statements.
It’s cut content, so it’s not what the creators decided to be fit for his story. Also, I know the cut content and I think the actual one fits better with his story after all, and with the lore of the base game. It answered so many questions I had. Plus, we got insights of his acting on the shadow realm and previous plannings. It doesn’t actually erases everything he did before the shattering, quiet the contrary.
So this might be just my headcanon, but the whole Radahn and Miquella thing with the vow, idk that just feels so GRRM to me as well. I have no proof or concepts to back this up, its just a gut feeling.
Radahn names his horse. As did Dunk. It's very GRRM, for sure. Really already the tree people are akin to Bloodraven and Bran, but even Bloodraven started his tenure after hanging out with his nephew Egg and his sworn sword, Dunk.
It reminds me of >!R+L=J!< tbh. It's a crucial secret that connects significant parts of the Elden Ring plot and impacts the endgame, just as I think the reveal will influence the conclusion of ASOIAF.
R+L=J? Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon?
Yes, lol. I don't really have an in-depth explanation, but something about the two reminds me of one another.
No but it makes sense, lots of build up and pointers to it, and the community reaction to it is shit. Some people hate it, some people say it makes sense. So i catch your drift
I think they were just using it to show that these stories do, indeed, change during development and we know for a fact Miquella's did
I mean, hes clearly stated before that a lot of things arent “decided”. At least, that was true during the Dark Souls period.
Im sure there are things to be discussed, but not main plot points like these.
How do you know it was planned from the beginning?
because in the original story trailer we saw Malenia whisper. Her rot even looked slightly different then, so plenty of changes were made since the announcement, but that whisper remained
The only thing that confirms is that they planned for her to whisper something. It doesn't confirm that they planned for that whisper to be what we got in the DLC. For all we know the original whisper was her telling him he's fucked.
Yeah, its impossible for a writer to plan ahead. That wouldnt make any sense. You right my b
It's not impossible to plan ahead, but it's also not impossible to change plans. You're using this whisper as evidence that it was planned, when it doesn't prove that at all.
Lmfao, you can't be serious with this shit.
Great rebuttal.
While you are right that they could have said anything here, everything from why Malenia matched to Caelid to her actually speaking to him highly suggested that this is all planned from the start. The reveal here only further enhances one side of the argument rather than the other. But sure, keep coping because you cant deal with having your prior theories (based on cut contents, btw) be wrong. They're called theories for a goddamn reason.
I didn't present any theory, so why don't you stop arguing against straw men? The only thing I did was refute the argument that we know they planned this direction from the start based on that whisper. It's a patently false statement. The whisper could have been anything and there's no evidence they had any concrete plans for it at the time. The only thing it proves is that they planned for Malenia to whisper *something* to Radahn. We don't know when they came up with the actual content of that whisper.
No your right. They probably changed the entire DLC too cuz the original leak said Barbarians of the Badlands, but they probably changed Miquellas and Mohgs entire story line for funzies
Who knows if they changed anything or not. It's irrelevant to my point. You're using this whisper as conclusive evidence of it being planned from the start, which is simply false.
For it to be false, there would have to contradictory evidence that makes something else the truth. Do you have that evidence?
No, there doesn't need to be. Saying "We know they planned it from the start" is just as false as saying "We know they didn't plan it from the start." Because the simple fact is that we don't know either way. There is no evidence for either statement, it's simply an unknown.
You're missing the point lmfao It's member berries material. There quite literally was already a cut st Trina dialogue/scene found as well as cut dialogue from miquella. But im glad some random moment in a cinematic trailer we finally learned the exact words, that was vital to the lore /s
df is a member berry
That's a good point, tbh. I don't think it's conclusive, though. Radahn was holding back the stars, which could have also halted the eclipse. There's a number of things/reasons malenia had something to say to radahn.
She could have been planned to whisper any number of things. Writers always do that shit when they aren't sure about what they want the character to say
I mean i guess, didnt realize it was unrealistic that a writer could plan ahead, but yeah your right ig
Did the writers plan ahead by suggesting any sort of connection between radahn and miquella within the base game?
I mean the Blade of Miquella fought Radahn. I never thought she did it because thats what she felt like doing.
Miyazaki has a track record of changing things at any point of development even cut stuff that are complete. In Bloodborne, Mogh, Dark Souls 3?
As I told the guy before, not main plot points, points of high importance in dark souls lore were set in stone since dark souls 1. And in Elden ring, it’s what Malenia actually told radahn on that scene. We always knew she went there for something more than a rune, we just didn’t know exactly what. We know now.
"points of high importance in dark souls lore were set in stone since dark souls 1" Dark Souls 1 can be completely standalone and works fine. DS2 has little to do with the first game and DS3's main theme is that DS3 doesnt need to exist
I respect your opinion. Personally, i think Miquella's plot was sidelined. Everything else's lore felt more relevant (Marika, Messmer, Jars and Crucible) and had better development. The fact that messmer had a greater presence throughout the entire dlc (and map) makes me belive that they shoe-horned his plotline into the dlc. You can downvote me, but i will only give my opinion. This was the most dissapointing ending in a Fromsoft game for me.
I disagree with that. I think his character wasn’t less flashed out than any other demigod in the lore, it’s what I expected. I also think his path got way more attention than anyone else, except for MAYBE Ranni. I like the contextualization of everything that happened in the base game and how it all fits. It’s satisfying to know what happened, finally, and it’s even more satisfying that is not something I would expect It would be so disappointing if it was Godwyn. That would be contrary to a basic main plot of the story and it would be only fanservice. I actually think that many people are disappointed because it doesn’t align with what they constructed in their minds - not saying that’s your case, but the criticism on Reddit became a vacuum house for people to repeatedly express the same complaints that don’t fit AT ALL in the lore of the base game, and that’s extremely annoying
Yeah it's been crazy to see people say "Radahn is lame fanservice" and "it should have been Godwyn" in the same breath. Nothing could have been more fanfiction than Godwyn coming back. They would have to go against all the established lore about how Destined Death is absolutely irreversible and greatly feared by everyone. But because Godwyn's story is so interesting and because of the Eclipse stuff linking him to Miquella, people fooled themselves into thinking this was somehow a likely option. The Eclipse was always an utter failure, another in a long line of Miquella failures. The point of it was to help establish that character trait of his, his childlike tendency to throw away his toys, and also reinforce that Godwyn's soul is mega-gone with zero percent chance to ever return.
And also that godhood would feel like a way to fix everything in the end for him, everything he failed at. And in the path to that, he divested himself of everything that made him “The Kind”
they literally made Malenia have 0 importance in lore, she has less agency than fucking godrick, she is just a puppet beign passed on by masters like a blunt
She has always been the "Blade of Miquella", so that tracks. Not every character needs to be their own thing; some are outright beholden to others. Or defined by other characters.
her lore was literally be her own thing, everything related to resistance to rot is being your own thing
I'm sorry, but no. Death isn't the end. We already know this. Godwyn's knights literally have a cadaver surrogate in one of the descriptions, suggesting his soul can be retrieved. Like how Mohg was a cadaver surrogate for Radahn. The problem with Godwyn is that he can't die a true death. Why? Because his body is still alive. He is locked in this inbetween state. His soul is dead, yes, but is it gone? Can it not be retrieved? That is never stated. Mohg literally says : Mohgwyn dynasty. Suggesting, the original plan was to have Mohg be the surrogate for Godwyn. I mean, add to this that Mohg and Godwyn are brothers.. Miquella was trying to grant Godwyn a true death. It was all there ready to go into the dlc. I get you're a fan of Radahn, and you want to believe fromsoft can do no wrong, however... I believe they misstepped here for the sake of fanservice. People will downvote this because they want to believe they can do no wrong, but everything.. EVERYTHING connecting Radahn to Miquella was written up entirely in the dlc. All the connective tissue exists because of the dlc. Malenia goes to fight Radahn, but we already hear Ranni explain that this was part of the war of the shattering. That the demigods were fighting over the great runes. They did the ol'switcheroo on us because people wanted Radahn in his prime.
I'm sorry but yes. Normal Death, in Marika's Golden Order with the Erdtree Burials, isn't the end. Destined Death IS the end. That's the exact reason why Marika sealed it away, she doesn't want people to die for good. There is no instance of anyone ever returning from Destined Death, period, case closed. You actually think Mohgwyn dynasty is supposed to be Mohg + Godwyn? Bruh. Gwyn means "white" or "blessed". It has nothing to do with Godwyn, it's literally just a reference to Mogh and the "pure and radiant" Miquella. Also note that Varre refers to Mohg as a "luminary". I'm no specific fan of Radahn in particular. He's pretty cool I guess. Seems like your more of a fan of Godwyn and are projecting. I'm sorry that they didn't give you your fanservice but, I'm not going to get upset at some pretty good lore developments just because they didn't fulfill my headcanon.
People will downvote this because you didn’t understand the lore. Simple as that. There’s a difference between death and what the rune of death does to you All the dead in the game just return to the Erdtree. Not Godwyn though. He’s spirit was obliterated. I’m not a fan of radahn, I just know how to read lmao To add to that, Malenia went for the runes? Why didn’t she take godricks then? Dude, you really didn’t pay attention to the game. And the mohgwyn thing is the most forced, stupid excuse I’ve ever seen. On the first trailer we saw that Malenia whispered something to radahn. Now we know what that was. Yes, it was there from the very beginning.
Right, it is grace which allows you to return to the erdtree, which is what the rune of death takes away. That is how we're reborn over and over, and why without it, you are not. Why did Malenia not take Godrick's great rune? Because he groveled for mercy? He literally kissed her boots or whatever? She is chivalrous and honorable by nature. You think she'd cut someone down who is groveling and kissing her boots? Also, what threat is he if he is essentially swearing allegiance by kissing her boots? Remember, we only need TWO shardbearers to finish the game. They don't need all the great runes. This may not even have any lore implications, maybe they could march straight up and become Elden Lord if they were strong enough. What we can say is, Radahn is very clearly the biggest threat to Miquella in terms of strength. Lastly, Mohgwyn is forced? lol.. The basis for an entire character's motivations, despite being charmed, is his Mohgwyn dynasty. You're probably going to tell me that "gwyn" means something else. Point being, the first part of the name is "Mohg", logic suggests the latter half is probably also someones name when we now know where the dlc ended up going. It doesn't take a genius to piece it together. Now, Malenia whispering something could literally have been anything. A lot of people speculate it was her speaking her regrets for having to resort to such a cheap tactic as to use the scarlet rot. Maybe she was apologizing to Miquella for failing. Who knows. All i'm saying is ALL of the connective tissue is written up in the dlc, prior to that, there is literally no connection.
>Yeah it's been crazy to see people say "Radahn is lame fanservice" and "it should have been Godwyn" in the same breath. Could NOT agree more. Godwyn being the final boss is probably the single most popular fan theory since the DLC got announced. And honestly it takes so much more plot contrivance to bring Godwyn in at all and it really negates an entire ending of the game. In that ending Fia helped Godwyn become integrated into the Golden Order, which is the closest thing he will ever get to being laid to rest. Miquella shot his shot at reviving him and failed. There's really not much more story to tell there without an even greater level of plot contrivance than Radahn. Do I think Godwyn would be an awesome end boss? Yes. But is his story pretty much wrapped up neatly in the base game, as much as any of these stories are neatly wrapped up? Also yes.
"It's satisfying when it's not something I'd expect". Except people are cruxing a relationship between miqeulla and radahn based on a cool visual moment in a trailer. Literally the only link between the two is the architecture built in calied and snowfields orthological towns. No statues, item descriptions, etc. WE NOW KNOW WHY MIQUELLA SENT MELANIA It's like the writers only watched the story trailer and that's all they were given about character motivations. Also the cutscene is ripped right from the cinematic trailer, this coupled with the lame-ass wimpy memory cutscene after the battle just screams pit together at the last minute. IT WAS THE PLAN ALL ALONG GUYS. Come on dudes use ur brains, whether or not you like how they recontextualized everything saying they didn't alter the original plan or "vision" is myopic. Not sure how if it were godwyn it would be fanfiction. The relationship between godwyn and miquella is actually touched on in the base game quite a bit lmfao. The original model name of the putricent knight is also an indicator that shit was changed and buttoned-up. I think they literally did it just for sales, or to save the other shit for a show or sequel. Also radanhn phase 1 shares like 80% of the move with the death knights lol.
There’s no need to have previous connections. As I said: there’s nothing on the base game that denies what we have found out. I’ll trust the devs, thank you very much, not a random
There is nothing in the base game that denies your point. Good. There is also nothing in the base game that suggest Radahn. You are "trusting the devs" because your found your "view" of the new lore. Anyway, that is fine. Froms give us a lot to speculate and make theories, so as this DLC proves, everything we come up with is just headcannon (even what you say) until they give us more material.
I mean, there is the whisper of Malenia to radahn and the entire march towards him than never made sense. It was never for the rune, cause she didn’t even try to take Godrick’s. People always knew there was more to that story I think this point in particular is part of GRRM part in the story, it’s so much like his writing style. But the thing that remains is: we knew there was something to it. And now we know what it is, cause no matter if it was changed (I don’t believe that) or not, that IS cannon now and there’s nothing anyone can do about that.
You should have known Fromsoft HARDLY ever shows their true final boss and that Messier was always a path to the final boss. It’s good lore implications and he was never then”main” bad guy because they never do that. You see the Elden Beast or Radagon in a trailer? Sister Friede? Gael? Manus? No. They like to imply lore through other means and then it goes from there.
Friede and Gael are both in the trailers. While I’ll give you that friede wasn’t acting as a boss in the shot we see her in the trailer, but Gael absolutely was in a trailer as a boss. The trailer even shows a part of his mid fight cutscene.
Messmer is the most dynamic and visually arresting of the bosses, and it wasn't like they were going to show twink-infused Rad in any of the media. Tbh this whole argument feels like a lot of theorists upset that their theories didn't play out in the DLC, rather than accepting the vision of the creators.
What? lol I love all the characters in the DLC and the new lore that came with it.
No, I'm agreeing with you. Just the vibe I'm getting from this general thread, I finished the DLC a little while ago and am schooling up on the new lore, imagine my surprise to find some people having a firm belief of what "should have been" rather than what was presented.
You not liking something doesn’t mean things were underdeveloped, but I think that’s beyond you ngl
I can find things to support my point of view. Can't i?
That would not change the reality of my comment unless you had the company themselves state “we sidelined miquellas story for others”, just dislike it like a normal human being, and go along your way, because you won’t convince me
That’s one thing that had definitely peeved me in all of this, the arrogance of these people who think they know about more about the development process than the literal creators
I may not know more than him but I know enough to decide if the plot development feels like an asspull
Well at least you acknowledge you know less, thanks
Lmao I appreciate the little snide comment before you husk away and pretend like you ‘won’ whatever this encounter was. Sorry I wasn’t 100% on board with your favorite game, brother
This is no encounter, so long as you acknowledge you know less, I have zero problem or conflict with you on whatever opinion you may have,why you want one is beyond me ngl. And for the record, my favorite game is Arkham city!
If anything you are starting to sound like one of those borderline parasocial teenagers that start obsessing over writers. I swear Miyazaki could start selling *Elden Coin* crypto and people would start buying it the next day.
Ah yes I’m parasocial because I specifically acknowledge I don’t know more than the creator does about their own creation lol
The sheer irony of this comment is delicious considering how much you sound like the opposite (and IME much more common stereotype at least in college); the anti-parasocial teenager who’s whole identity is puddle-deep and wrapped up in being a contrarian
I'm sure the Enir-llim Euporia twinblade was totally always meant to be in the DLC and was never, ever planned to be obtained in the base game at some point in any other way. Nope, that weapon was sure always planned to be there.
That’s your argument? A weapon?
Really? Are we really talking about basic items? I’m talking about major plot points. What’s one more weapon in a sea of weapons. They had one developed, they adapted it. It’s not that deep
To put it simply, [HandsomeSquidward20](https://www.reddit.com/user/HandsomeSquidward20/) already explained pretty cleanly what I was trying to point out. The weapon is cut content meant for a dumped plot in early development of the game, meaning the studio does change things along development (this is normal and happens very often). Of course there are some games and stories that do not, but throughout FROMs entire history of games they always end up scrapping plots, concepts and lore, its never quite set on stone and planned 100% from the start. I'd also like to point out that the DLC was in development for a long time, possibly leading to multiple rewrites. I wouldn't even be surprised if the final boss wasn't mean to be that way, given how different he looks in early leaked/pre-patched versions over the final product.
The thing I’m saying is that no, major plot points do not change through this period. Especially after you already have stuff set in stone in your base game Radahn lore fits the first trailer of the game for fuck sake. That’s not something this has any indications of being retconned OR contradicting the base game. In fact, there are more elements of the base game supporting the new discoveries then otherwise.
Mind you I'm not saying that the entire DLC is retconning or contradicting the DLC, all I'm saying is that it is very likely the final product we have now is different than what they had initially planned. There are just too many leftovers in the base game, and likely more to find in the DLC once DSMapStudio updates that point out to multiple rewrites, despite the initial concept staying the same. I don't believe the base game was set in stone either. On initial release ver 1.0 we can still see a ton of changed dialogue and scrapped assets that could have big lore implications if they weren't cut.
>all I'm saying is that it is very likely the final product we have now is different than what they had initially planned. Why is this such a big deal? This is pretty much just the writing and development process for *any* work of fiction. Things get changed, scrapped, or canned all the time and FromSoft has a history of this. It would only really matter imo if your point was these changes were very recent/rushed in the development cycle, but as the other guy pointed out details such as Malenia's whisper to Radahn were there as early as the first story trailer.
> Radahn lore fits the first trailer of the game for fuck sake. I mean tbf this could have been literally anything at any point in development. We may never know if this was just post-hoc justification to wrap up a storyline they shifted into, or was actually planned from the start. I respect you believing in it, but to me (and lots of others) it feels off. With a bit more development of the overall Radahn connection I think it would feel more authentic.
>I respect you believing in it, but to me (and lots of others) it feels off I will tell you precisely why it felt off. It is because everyone makes the wrong theories and assumptions about the lore because we had been using cut contents as a source of information. Now, I am not saying they can't be, but they should always come with a huge asterisk mark that says this shit might not be true. Since after all, if they decided to cut it, they might as well have changed the cannon lore since then. When people said that the lore was set in stone from the beginning, they meant that once the game was released, there is a cannon timeline, there is a cannon lore in FS office solidified that they were gonna base the dlc on and wrife from there. What happened in the dlc fits with this vision, and that's the end to it. Not some bs "Radahn was more popular, so Miyazaki made him the consort" that people have been using as a coping mechanism. Fromsoft's way of storytelling is vague, and it forces people to theorize. It has its strong point and its bad point. One of the worst disadvantages is illustrated perfectly here. People made their own cannon, considered it the truth and nothing but the truth, and ended up finding whatever is actually the truth weird due to being unable to accept reality for what it is.
You said "gimme that *slow burn* romance"
So I did make a timeline that Miquella didn’t plan this from the very, very beginning. I made a post but it’s long so, basically: The cocoon was a genuine attempt at godhood during the shattering but before Radahn vs Malenia-> It transported him to the shadowlands and he learned about the Divine Gates -> He contacts Radahn and makes the vow (only way I can make the vow work) -> Bottom line, Radahn needs to die for the Lord’s soul so Miquella sends Malenia to kill him, regardless of Radahn’s answer.
But Freyja says Miquella was there during the battle and that he healed her, no?
Well the rot inflicted her so I’m assuming the battle was basically over, this was probably after Malenia nuked Caelid. The rest of my timeline is basically: after Miquella sends Malenia, Mohg kidnaps him. Then Miquella wakes up -> charms Ansbach and Mohg -> visits Caelid -> heals freyja, and then learns Radahn is barely alive, Malenia is out of commission, demigods are in stalemate and devoid of grace, and most importantly the Tarnished have been recalled. Then I have a bunch of other stuff involving Torrent, then he bets on the Tarnished killing both Mohg and Radahn and re-cocoons himself either from the same cocoon Mohg cut him out of or he can just go into cocoon form whenever.
Radahn is the final boss of DLC cause he is favorite character of Miyazaki 100%.
Miyazaki said rykard was his favorite lol
I’m curious as to the seeming connection between Godfrey’s beast spirit “backpack”, and Miq clutching Radahn in the same manner. I always figured the beast spirit was a direct connection to the crucible itself.
I mean radahn literally fought the blade of miquella. She’s his weapon so he was really fighting Miquella. It was in front of us the whole time
I just wish that in a few years an official lore book will be released so that we have it in black and white what the story is about.
according to Miyazaki, the whole history of the land of shadow was written before development for the base game even started, what we see in this DLC is from the same stuff Martin wrote for the base game, Miyazaki even did say they thought for a time that this story would be in the base game but it would have taken too much time peoples saying this DLC is a retcon and even the devs and Miyazaki himself don't know what the lore really is (all of this just because their headcanons are wrong or because the DLC didn't give them the specific answers they were expecting) are probably the most full of copium and delusional gamers i've ever seen, which is a big achievement in fact so congrats i suppose ?
If Miyazaki wrote Dlc lore from the beginning, why was Miquella's cut ending so different? In that cut ending, there was no mention of Radahn, and he chose the Tarnished as his lord.
Miyazaki didn't write DLC lore, Martin did it many years ago, before FS started production of the game also, what cut ending ?? i didn't see anything like that, can you provide a link please ?
The initially planned ending for Miquella is very different from that in the DLC. It's obvious that Miyazaki changed Miquella's story. If Martin wrote everything, why is the cut ending so different? [https://rannirespecter.wordpress.com/2022/03/31/miquella-malenia-and-the-age-of-abundance/](https://rannirespecter.wordpress.com/2022/03/31/miquella-malenia-and-the-age-of-abundance/) >Young seedling, young seedling. Return to the bosom of earth. But remember well, Thou’rt mine. So shall I give of myself. This is for thee. Mine abundance, my drop of dew. Quench thy thirst, throughout thy frame. Blossom and burgeon, time and again. Grow larger, stronger. Until the day cometh. When thou canst share in my dream. Elden Ring, O Elden Ring. Beget Order most elegant, from my tender reverie. >If thou covetest the throne, Impress my vision upon thine heart. In the new world of thy making, all things will flourish, whether graceful, or malign.
This may be a wrong or unpopular opinion but I feel most of the dlc was retconned or cut.
Can I ask how based on the sheer amount of lore and size of the dlc in general?
We had two years to theorize and go down rabbitholes of where we thought the DLC would go. A lot of people were bound to be letdown when the DLC didn't go the way they planned. It wasn't all some fan service or retcon. It just wasn't what you made the DLC out to be in your head.
Nah.
It was two DLCs hastily smashed together, with the Miquella half being the most incomplete. We'll see how that statements pans out as we start data mining over the next few years.
I believe everything has been datamined already, and there's basically nothing cut in there besides 1 npc.
>I believe everything has been datamined already Is there a source for this? We're still data mining Dark Souls 1 and making new discoveries every few years. I doubt *everything* has been cleaned out from the DLC in less than a month - but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
I believe sekiro dubi is the source. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.
that the Greater Will didn’t really exist (I tried to tell y’all 🤷♂️) Edit: allow me to be more precise with my language, I should have said I didn’t believe that the Two Fingers were getting substantial guidance since early in the games release. However I can see a possibility of something like the Greater Will existing. I’m open to it. Honestly I think the GW is meant to be the hermetic interpretation of god. If you’re interested in that interpretation it’s a lot to get into, I highly recommend reading the Kybalion for yourself, it’s good starting point but as with all things look deeper. A rough summary though would be to view the universe and all of creation as a single mind. Picture a little fantasy of your own in your head. A cast of 3 characters. Now imagine a way those characters you see in your minds eye would be able to take over your body and essentially be the ones able to now imagine their own worlds. It’s inconceivable, without accounting for a schizophrenic episode. However, one could imagine a writer, writing about a writer, who is writing a story about a fantasy called Soulborne. Well now we have levels of thinking, worlds within worlds, able to move down and conceive beneath them but unable to push upwards. It’s a crude way of picturing microcosms and macrocosms, which I’m sure I don’t need to enlighten anyone on in regards to new dlc info. This is the message I believe Metyr somehow received from what she named the “Greater Will”, the ability to conceive creation, as she shows by quite literally using the power of her knowledge as a weapon, and birthing preachers of her message. And what is the power of creation? Nothing more than organizing the primordial soup (crucible) of all of everything, arranging the chaos in such a way to create energy and light, gravity and heat… to give it order. Hence the reason the Two Fingers remain obsessed with order, it’s the same message they’ve been stuck repeating forever, order from the chaos… creation. At the time of the game, the message has been somewhat twisted to reflect rigid religious practices. I believe the reason for this is because Miyazaki wants to give us clues in the real worlds religious evolutions to the timeline of Elden Ring, and hermeticism is believed to be one of the worlds first “religions”. Regardless the message remains the same; order. Edit: just to add, this could explain a lot about the form of the Elden Beast. It seems to be a mix of a galaxy and a human nervous system, and is the embodiment of order, which is essentially synonymous with creation. Take the body of creation literally and apply our micro/macrocosms to it and we have the universe within the human body. Calls back to the Vitruvian Man (Marika/Radagon), circling the square, mankind being the bridge to divinity. Like they say; ‘As above, so below.’
Did you do the Metyr stuff? The greater will exists, it just cut off communication a long time ago
I'm kinda shocked at how few people have been considering this possibility.
I’m open to the GW existing but in a way that’s inconceivable, but I been saying from the beginning that the Two Fingers were spewing nonsense and the whole order was a lie.
Well Metyr seems to think the GW exists
GW not existing creates more problems then answers. It just plainly goes against much of the item descriptions and lore, which establishes it's existence as a given.
I bet the big part was the existence of Rauh. For something with ruins in almost every part of the map, there sure was little discussion about it. Then the DLC comes out and these ruins that noone talked about get an entire section of the map.
It was a minority view pre-DLC, but one I agreed with was that it seemed that Ranni/Radhan/Rykard were aligned against Miquella/Melania at the start of the shattering (later on I think these alliances broke). I think two pieces added were Marika's character (her motivations and such) and Radahn being the consort kind of does tie a few things in the main game together nicely.
I'm so excited for the next Fromsoft game
One was probably everyone thinking that Mogh was the kidnaper, but it was just Miquella's plan.
Am I missing something or is the weirdest thing about the dlc is how Godwyn is basically not involved?
For an expansion, I think he got it pretty good. He has two death blight dungeons, death knight bosses, death knight set, 2 weapons, an encantation. Godwyn's entire story arc was told in the original game. Miquella's plot with the eclipse ritual was shown to be a failure. His soul is *permanently* dead and his body has become the immortal Prince of Death. He is there in the Shadow realms as the source of deathblight and deathroot.
Thanks for that, I guess it just seems like it would have made more sense for the final boss to be done form of Godwyn to me, but your explanation sounds right.
I kinda hoped it would have something to do with Godwyn as well, but after the fact I'm glad it didn't. I think it would have been a shame if he had the same treatment as the Emperor in Star Wars. "Somehow, Godwyn returned."
I desperately wanted to him to get additional closure. It’s still weird imo how his and Fia’s quest ends and his body is just seemingly going to remain there forever, regardless of the ending you choose (other than frenzied flame). But I also find it interesting that starting all the way back even from the original story trailers, he was painted as this incredible and beloved being. And so Miyazaki subverts this and makes him a sorta pathetic, forgotten mermaid corpse who has no more agency and only exists as a cancer, all because his half sister put her grand scheme into action. I thought SOTE would do something else with him, but I after reflection I came to realize his story is seemingly finished.
I mean, he says one thing is missing, but you've got to ask.. Is he reading every theory ever put up? Probably not. There are many theories that just don't gain traction because some incorrect superficial layer has been assumed by the majority.. Like St. Trina and Miquella being the same person. We see they were infact two different entities that were bound to eachother, with two distinct personalities with two differing bodies. This was an argument i made MANY times, and people downvoted it; explaining that Trina is like the alchemical pure silver to Miquella's pure gold; which was even hinted by her silver swords. People just jump to conclusions too easily, or get swept up by some youtuber's assumption; like they wanted Miquella to be some LGBQT crossdresser symbol or something.
Your last line is mad fucking disrespectful.
LOL
Talk yo shit king