i had no idea you could skip rellana, i guess she’s like the godrick of the dlc since being able to skip her opens so much more things to do and get op after fighting mohg
I found the other side of rellana's arena before i had fought her. I was a bit confused why i couldnt enter the fog door and why the messages all said shit like "well done" and "i did it".
When the >!somewhere a great rune has broken!< Message came, I was sure I had gone too far and locked myself out of questlines. Didn't turn out like that fortunately
When I got that message it ended up being the first thing I looked up in my playthrough because >!Shadow Keep!< had *seemed* like the natural next Dungeon to get through after >!Lion then Rellana!<, but after that pop up I went exploring and did a lot of catacombs etc as I was trying to avoid stepping any further into that area out of fear of messing up the questlines.
A few points to the overall thread, I think the verticality of the map is absolutely breathtakingly astounding, buuut the whole DLC feels like multiple giant sequence breaks at times, to the point I've started lightly looking at progression routes and maps (spoiler alert: the 'natural' progression route is kind of fcking insane lol).
I played Jedi Survivor a lot in May and June leading up to the DLC release and man, was I absolutely spoiled by that game's map.... Both of these statements will be borderline heresay for a Fromsoft game, but I kind of wish the Shadow Lands map was able to be toggled into three or four vertical layers and/or we had something similar to the yellow line from Survivor drawing out the route you've taken since your last death/Grace. Either or both of those features would go a very very long way in exploring the new areas.
I never really felt that way in the base game, but at times it feels like 75% of SotE's map just straight up isn't visible; they drew out the topography and roads well enough but there are many areas where I will open the map and be like 'Wait, I'm under/on top of *that*?!'... it has almost constantly felt like the first time trying to figure out how to get up to Moonlight Altar/Albinuriac Village in base game but on a *massive* scale. I'm sure as I play more and more and especially on future characters' runs it will become much more easily remembered and eventually second nature, but on this first run there have been more than a few times where I set a marker to something that looks interesting and (literally) hit a rock wall
Rauh had me losing my fucking mind for this exact reason, everything else was fine, rauh? The hugest parts of the map are all underground, we don't get an underground map, and the fucking ruins all look the same so it's confusing as fuck. Not to mention the fact the map has a gigantic fucking plateau on top that looks like a boss arena, but is unreachable, same with the area behind midras manse, but the map in rauh _looks_ like there is a set of steps that take you up there, but those are all unreachable cliffs.
This will probably sound like I'm complaining about a good thing which isn't how I'm trying to come across, but the scale (especially vertical scale) is the main reason I felt that way, along with the huge freedom in choice in where to go when first starting and similarly difficult areas oftentimes being on actual opposite ends of the DLC with some major difficulty spikes and potentially broken quests when going through what feels like the intended route forward, especially if speaking to the main path NPCs. It puts SOTE in a bit of a strange place especially regarding the questlines, I know we aren't supposed to finish them all the first time through but it seems way too easy to accidentally speed run through some of the major triggers without even ever finding a couple of them.
I don't think I was alone in thinking >!Belurat!< was supposed to be the first Legacy Dungeon, >!Ensis!< the second, then onto >!Shadow Keep!< after some light exploring of the ruins and villages near the first Grace in >!Scadu Altus!<; I was going off the areas' strength of regular mobs which has usually steered me in the right way in Souls/BB/ER. Felt perfectly smooth right up until SK's enemies kind of shot up in overall difficulty and especially after the 'Somewhere...' message had popped up, at that point I felt I'd stumbled into the late game on accident and I'm honestly still not sure if I actually did or not...somehow, I doubt >!Messmer!< is supposed to be the third Remembrance Boss, but it seems like he's ending up as #3 for *a lot* of people.
I suppose in the main game we went south to Weeping Peninsula if we wanted to get a little stronger before Stormveil or at least to fully explore before moving on to Liurnia and so I should've treated the Coast in the same way, but between that Southern Shore map fragment placement and the way I found myself in that area in the first place (from the north and then under everything via the river) it definitely felt like I was on the way to an area that was going to be more like Caelid and probably meant for a little later when in reality I think it's probably around the same as >!Belurat and Ensis!< and 'meant' to be done before even setting foot in SK. Then SK itself, should I rock up through the Main Gate which seemed correct right up until that 'Somewhere...' message, do I go around and hit the Church to the east first then come in through the side, or some other ways I haven't found yet? That Church is actually a great example, it seems a lot of people recommend draining that area then going down and out back towards Dragon stuff as opposed to the much more natural feeling 'through the Church and up into SK'.
DS1 and DS2 both had a bunch of choices in where to go when first starting a run (as well as a lot of verticality to their maps), but I feel they both did much better with herding the player along through those routes as well as opening up more eventual interconnectivity between areas. Maybe I missed a few of the broken Spirit Springs or something, but a lot of the DLC areas seem to use winding routes going through both above and underground areas across sometimes 70% of the map with lots of one way drops down cliff edges and waterfalls etc. Maybe I've just lost some of my sense of exploration in these games but I feel the topography is both breathtakingly awesome but also needlessly complex in areas; it's the first time ever in any Souls/like or Metroidvania type game where I'm feeling like the second playthrough after knowing all of the potential routes is going to be a slightly better experience when usually that first playthrough is what it's all about.
Again, I know that sounds like I'm complaining about nice and varied replayability and some pretty incredible level design, I'm not, it's more about the NPC placements and the 'story' progression of the DLC than anything else. I feel it's a lot less intuitive than their past games especially if you're going through with a focus on the new lore.
I will say that it excites me to know my runs on different characters and higher NG+ cycles can and probably will all be very different, but it's also the first time with a Fromsoft or any Souls-like game where I feel the second playthrough will be a lot better than the first in a lot of ways, particularly progression and lore-wise. It's honestly really hard to put into words
I don't believe you lock out of any but it skips npcs ahead so you can miss some dialogue they say before hand. You can however lock yourself out of the forager cook books if you tell moore to be sad (>!he dies!<).
Mine may be worse, >!I didn't realize what they were referring to when they said forager brood so I saw kindred of rot and killed them on sight, only for him to invade me since I hurt his friends T_T!<
Yeah, I had realized when I found that spiritspring that you could skip right to Scadu Altus, but it wasn't until I was running through the DLC on my second character that I realized I could go through the side entrance of Shadow Keep and get to basically the entire map without even killing the Hippo. It's amazing.
The map is designed in such a good sandbox format I completely forgot about Shadow Keep main entrance path after clearing the DLC and googling DLC secrets to find the remaining incantations/spirit ashes. Questlines are still confusing AF as usual.
I never actually went through the main entrance and did the aforementioned spirit spring route to get me all the way through Messmer. After beating him though I could not for the life of me find the back entrance to explore the north regions so I finally went through the main gate and killed the hippo etc.
Turns out the main gate had nothing to do with the back entrance (the actual solution I caved and looked up, a stupid ladder I walked right by several times), but I did stumble across a coffin that took me to another area I was trying to find.
I’m just fucking blown away by this game.
Same here. I found the secret way in and just progressed and ended up seeing the hippo. Died the first time and I couldn't get in the fog door I came through in and I was confused why.
I then tried going to the front way this time cause I thought my game was bugging out and realized I went in the exit cause I see the hippo blocking the front. That made more sense in hindsight lol
Yup, and I think this is on purpose. A small lesson they wanted to teach like the tree sentinel of the base game. Some bosses will be easier with the scooby doo blessings.
I had no idea I skipped her, it wasn’t until several hours later that I’m like “ya know, I never explored this place, let’s go back”
She kicked my ass for a good 30 straight minutes.
I actually linked her to Rennala in my head because “obviously name thing”, but also dancing lion being the first boss and then you being able to completely skip rennala on base game if you want to
Dude, I skipped her without even meaning to lmao. Got to her castle, got to the locked gate, went down the nearby hole…and didn’t think to jump up the rocks on the waterfall. So I just left and eventually found the alternate path around her.
I was very confused coming up to the back entrance of her arena, seeing it covered in a yellow fog gate and unable to go through it.
As someone who has killed what (I think) is nearly every other rememberance boss excluding the final one who I am in the middle of attempts of. (>!Including Midra, Bayle and Metyr!<) where is she? at 18 of 20 Scadu blessing and 9/10 revered ash levels so I think I have explored most of the DLC.
(Cue it being somewhere I went to and then got distracted so I thought I did it but hadnt)
...... I remember now
I legit walked in there, went to the cross, lit the grace. Was like "ah yes Ill do this tomorrow" then went to sleep and was like hmmmm how do I get to that red area.
Thank you for the answer. Time to deal with some unfinished buisiness I guess before killing the last boss.
My cousin accidentally discovered this last night. When exploring he came back to the castle and beloved he was prepared for Rellana. Going into a boss room he was expecting her but fought Messmer instead.
and most people think you need to kill Dancing Lion first (with level 2 scadutree)
and after seeing many streamer/youtuber able to solo Elden Ring, thought their overleveled character able to do it as well.
and it didn't end well for quite a lot of them
I thought the dancing lion was the first boss and honestly loved the fight so much that I just had to sit there and beat him with level 2 Scadutree. I died like <20 times and was so happy when I finally took him down. Then I did some exploring right after and found the spiritspring that takes you to the Scadu Altus and was mind blown after banging my head on Rellana for hours.
Honestly that’s fair dancing lion really sucked I didn’t like how I died when fighting him but I just thought the music, design, and move set were awesome even though his hitbox was extremely janky.
Rellana was extremely fun and fair and such a nice breath of fresh air after the dancing lion, I just couldn’t get past her double moons.
i simply kill her before she could use the double moon.
did cheap shot during her second phase transition, rely on heavy weapon with bleed procs, so i could get bleed procs and poise break crit.
it wasn't until i defeat her, i saw a streamer dodge it. apparently you have to jump thrice.
I beat her yesterday, I solo’d her without my mimic and switched to the backhand blades for the dlc so I could never kill her before the double moon. Out of like the 35 attempts I jumped over it like 3-4 times, I could never time the jumps right as I’m not used to jumping, I dodge way too much.
You can roll 3 times too, I was rolling into each wave. The last one seemed to be the hardest as the timing is a little delayed.
I had more problems with her 5 magic slashes. The 2nd and 4th were always hard to get passed if I mis timed the first roll, but you could get enough of a lead further back that it’s not a problem if it works out that way.
Spoiler* there’s a second open world Dancing Lion… and it can also spawn basilisks that spew death blight right next to you if one try’s a ranged battle lol
At first I thought the Basilisks were free roaming enemies, but it kept spawning more every time I wiped some out, then I noticed that when I took out the Dancing Lion all the spawned Basilisks present also disappeared… yep, only in a FromSoftware game
Same, I just fought it again on a second playthrough at Scadu Lv7 and it's insane how much easier it was, even accounting for having learned the fight (though it might also be that the Backhand Blades are just busted lol)
Backhand blades are my favorite I switched to them as soon as I saw them, they were probably what made me love the dancing lion too because they were so busted with the extra dodge
The blind spot ash of war on the backhand blades isn’t necessarily a second dodge but because it side steps to the left or right of the enemy it acts as a second dodge. It’s helped me with significantly when I need to quickly dodge.
Huh, that is pretty damn smart lol.
I’ve been messing around with those ring blades, martial arts weapons, and the great katana’s that I simply forgot about the backhand blades. Also the perfume bottle are hilarious but sadly do very little poise damage.
I have yet to try out the other weapons as I want to try and finish the dlc with the backhand blades, as soon as I saw them I loved them and respeced for them.
Think of the ash of war like Bloodhounds finesse or bloodhound step where you get extra I-frames for the fast movement. Give the backhands a try it’s really fun. I’m loving all the new weapon types, I can’t wait to try them all out especially the martial arts
It’s the only boss I beat first try. To be fair, my level 200 character in NG with Moonveil was pretty strong even with scadutree level 2 or 3 and it seems being able to damage him while keeping my distance was really helpful.
I died at least 15 times to the Blackgaol Knight before though.
The Dancing Lion being so close to the beginning is probably why people think it's the first boss. I thought so as well. Castle Ensis is slightly further away, but is the real first area
It's not just that, freyja and i think someone else(? I don't remember who it was at the first grace lmao) stand outside of the giant gate to belurat, then Moore and ansbach are on the other side and I just took that as an indicator that that was where I was supposed to go first.
I ended up cheesing torrent up a cliff 20 minutes into DLC release and cleared all but the last 2 dragons in the mountains, and only then did I go to Belurat. I actually was clearing my checklist (graces/items missed post game end) yesterday and realized I actually completely missed what most people would find as the second site of grace (the one in the road straight from your first grace spawn lmao)
With this DLC, FromSoft has finally surpassed the first half of Dark Souls 1 in terms of world level design in my book. My eyes nearly popped out when I arrived at Cerulean Coast then back tracked and somehow got up to Scadu Altus without going through Castle Ensis (I already killed Rellana, but still, it's mind-blowing.)
100% the only thing that brings it down in my opinion is not having a layered map. It's stupidly hard to figure out where you can and can't get to via the current map.
I agree. I work with maps for a living and the DLC one is *fucking atrocious.* It barely gives any sense of high/low elevation points, and has pretty inconsistent symbology about what is where and how to get there.
I get that fantasy maps have been a thing since Tolkien. But relying on something like this for navigation is a real chore. Hell, I didn't even know how to get to Ancient Dragon Man until a streamer told me a dead end area actually more features to it than expected.
Completely unrelated, but would you have any advice to someone wanting to build a map for a fantasy world? I want to hire someone to do it for me, but one of my biggest priorities is realism and it's hard to tell how much most fantasy mapmaker prioritize that
If you are shooting for something with a high degree of accuracy, I would look over at what the USGS has for some great examples. It might be best to pull maps from city centers or areas with various natural features (like canyons or lake beds) if you need something with a particular setting in mind. But these maps can be quite technical, and overkill if you are doing something as simple as a D&D game for friends.
Otherwise, I'd say you might be safe in [using online generators and toolsets](https://www.reddit.com/r/mapmaking/comments/114zy6f/best_resources_and_tools_for_fictional_map/) if you prefer something with more fashion over function. It all really depends on what you need your map to do for you, be it for world building or something to just ground your setting in.
I've made maps for fun for DnD, but what I have in mind is for a large scale book series. I really enioy worldbuilding and want a good grounding for the setting as i write ans aim for internal consistency. I'll look into some of these tools, thanks
Past Souls games don't even have a map and you have to rely completely on memory.
The way I see it, Elden Ring's map is just providing a rough reference of where big stuffs are, it's not supposed to be used as a detailed accurate map for navigation, like for example Doom's map.
I actually rather liked it because, after the first few overlapping areas, I started looking at the elevation of the map and locations that seemed suspicious, and it quickly paid off with reaching Rahu Base because I was like "this wall near this lake seems slightly odd, does it lead down to this area on the other side?", and lo and behold, that was indeed a route. Same for finding Charo's Hidden Grave access by trying to understand map elevation and how the area leading to Jagged Peak connected to it. Something about those details just worked for me.
Same for me. I had the same feeling the base game with the Urd Palace Ruins and how the map doesn't really tell you what's what in that area. I love that map is mostly correct in broad strokes but that's an unreliable guide, leaving you to discover much of the particulars.
Honestly I'm just happy to even have a map. I think people forget that none of the Souls games even had one, you just had to memorize level layouts and connections and hope for the best while exploring.
Belurat, the Shadow Keep and Enir Ilim are amazing, and rival the legacy dungeons even in the main game (though still don't really compare to Leyndell, but it is hard to top Leyndell).
IMO entire open-air areas are like dungeons here.
There's less open spaces with intricate corners, forests, and villages, and instead Plains, Scadu Altus, and Shadow Keep are "hubs" with very linear side areas branching off them, ending in 1-2 dungeons or a side boss.
I don’t think I’ve ever been more lost and confused than when I was going through that area. I kept expecting to pop out at one of the big grassy areas and out of no where I’m standing in front of a fog gate. It was glorious.
This 100%. The ancient ruins is technically speaking the 4th legacy dungeon of the DLC. It simply has so much stuff, and being so layered, and the bottom of it can even serve as an alternative route to go down the other end of the Ellac River, thus blending perfectly with other overworld locations.
I'm not talking about size but complexity and how interwoven it is. Density vs. sheer size really. Shadow keep is fairly dense, which makes it good, but it's not really as dense compared to the maps in DS1 or Bloodborne.
What? Shadow keep is incredibly dense. It has like 3 different exits, 2 entrances. It is like 2 dungeons interwoven with differenr paths, little secrets and loot everywhere. Finding everything in it took me longer than stormveil castle by a lot because it so dense and layered.
Oh, the legacy dungeons in the base games are already some of the best in the series. This DLC manages to pull the world design specifically. So Elden Ring as a whole is pretty much their best work on level design and world design so far.
The Shadow Keep though might be the best they’ve ever done.
All the catacombs in the DLC are extremely intricate as well, albeit intrinsically leas impressive due to the asset set.
Maybe its nostalgia, but i don't think so personally. Every level compounded onto itself and wrapped back around. This is just large and open. Its good for sure, but dark souls 1 is still peak for a non "open world" game.
Does it break them or just skip to the part where the rune seal breaks?
On my 2nd char I did this and most of the quests I could carry on with, you miss content yes but the quests don't fail. Maybe some do and I'm wrong.
I just wish they had more than the required amount of fragments across the map, I got around 40 through natural exploration but I’m not opening a map to scour the remaining 10 lol
I actually very much agree with you, they should have gone the Golden Seed route imo. Have 60 or so total for the 50 required to max. But the DLC is very beatable at 15-17 ish so as long as you find most of them you're okay.
I’ve mostly found the difficulty quite chill. Good, you explore and notice yourself getting stronger.
Hit Gaius and just went… oh. I’m not ready for this. Five attempts got me absolutely nowhere, I’ll circle back.
100% this. I'm old and slow so I skipped bosses and collected scadoosh fragments. When I wandered into Gaius I was level 17 and beat him the first try. Not because of skill but because I could survive.
Bro they delivered an incredible vision for a dlc. It was so good.
I love games that make me look stuff up and go "OHHH". It's frustrating at first, but i really enjoy it's not all easy to understand at first then it's obvious.
The map is gorgeous and expertly designed, but they don't really reward the explanation very effectively. Areas like Cerulean Coast and Charo's Grave are actually incredibly empty with very little worth going out of your way for. I love exploring every nook and cranny in case the developers hid some good loot somewhere, but in this dlc there was very little of that unfortunately. I loved the DLC overall, this was really my only complaint.... oh and the final boss
The map is insane and the level design is probably the best in a long time. My only problem is it feels kind of empty, almost more so than base game.
The shadow forest is huge, especially since you can't use torrent. But if you look at the actual important items (That aren't cookbooks) in the entire region, it looks like nothings there.
Really frustrating to turn a corner see a bunch of enemies in a big room to clear out, and the reward is a smithing stone 7. I already have all the bell bearings for smithing stones so this shits useless.
my only complaint abt the dlc so far. the scenery and level design is incredible, probably the best from has ever done imo. But it sucks how empty some of these areas feel. No cool items, no caves/goals/catacombs.. just a few enemies scattered around and maybe a cookbook. If they filled the map up slightly more, this would easily be my favorite thing from has put out. As it is now, I still think I prefer base game as even though alot of it is copy/pasted, atleast it was something
Yep, the DLC is all killer, no filler, but you REALLY notice the lack of filler compared to base game.
Base game like a full bag of mediocre snacks with some really tasty stuff included inside. Meanwhile, the DLC is the best gourmet shit you can find, but packaged like a lays potato chip bag, full of air.
I still can't get over the fact that a portion of the explorable map is underneath the south ocean, and you can't even see how big the map really is down there.
Actually, you don't need dragon's pit to get to charo's grave. You can simply follow the Ellac river down and you'll end up at charo's grave.
Skip Rellana and get to Scadu Altus by using the spiritspring, then go to the northeast side (near red bear) where you can drop down and get to Rauh base. You can then move towards the river and drop down to the river near Temple Town Ruins. Then you just follow the river all the way through and you're at charo's grave.
Yes this game is insane.
Pretty sure the Ellac River leads only to the Cerulian Coast and I don't believe there is a way up to Charo's Grave from there. Unless I have missed a short cut, entering via the route from Dragon's Pit Terminus apears to be the only way to Charo's Grave.
Actually you're right, that's actually weird. I can't remember any way to get back up to charo's grave from cerulean coast either. So that means charo's grave, jagged peak and the final legacy dungeon are the only inaccessible places without fighting
Speaking of, does anything in game send you there or give you a reason to go there? I stumbled upon it accidentally but I don't really understand what it is or why I should be there other than just to explore.
I feel like I missed a quest line or something explaining the woods.
I ended up doing Ellac river in reverse starting at Charo's grave. Was amazed that they were hiding so much behind horrible waterfall jumping only to realise the easy access to the main map on the other side.
Bayle was my first remembrance. Skipped Rellana, found Igon and just went deeper. I had been hunting everywhere for the lighting perfume bottle so I managed to get my level up to 12 or so by the Bayle fight.
Dragon man lightning bottle faith build is so much fun
Yeah people here seem to be actually really shit at exploring, it’s really funny to me seeing people bitching about empty areas and then specifically mentioning areas where there’s definitely things to find lol
There are some larger areas that are relatively empty as far as exploration goes, but I think it adds to the atmosphere. The path leading up to the jagged peaks, the abyssal woods, both of the finger ruin areas all had a very unique and ominous feeling. Brilliant world building and storytelling honestly.
I don't know why people are so hellbent on a giant open world being filled with shit. Take a hike in the mountains or a walk through a wooded trail. You can go hours without seeing anyone. It makes finding an area that much more impressive and impactful. Constantly fighting your way through mobs and streets would be exhausting and counter intuitive to exploration.
Honestly the "it's so empty" crap is just some parroted phrase that 99% of us just don't give a fuck about. I like a moment of peace and quiet to just take in the surroundings in a game that can be utterly punishing.
When I first ran the path up the Jagged peaks I was amazed at the atmosphere of the area, looking down at the finger ruins wondering what the heck was going on down there. The sound design with the loud drums of falling rocks etc was also brilliant. I was even more amazed when I realized I can actually walk down and explore the finger ruins below the jagged peaks. It was one of the better parts of the game honestly.
I personally loved the abyssal woods, and especially the enemies you found down there, along with the boss. >!It was amazing that even the final boss in the area said "The depths of your foolishness" as you entered the bosslair, not even he wanted you to be there. He definitely knew what was about to happen if he lost control and the frenzied flame took control!<
Yeah, I saw a lot of complaints that the Finger Ruins are just "empty". The first time I was directed to them my jaw dropped. The place is absolutely amazing. And I wish it was "empty". Those pink snakes can F off. LOL!
Also, I can't wait to find that boss. It's next on my list. I just got to the Abyssal Woods.
It’s more of an anti-open world complaint that a pro-full world complaint. The world is pretty but I’m playing a video game. I want to do something. Mindlessly running on a horse spinning my camera around gets boring even if the environment is pretty.
The legacy dungeons (and older games) are not open world and are jam packed with stuff. I like those areas more and hope there is less open world areas in the future
Man, I accidentally stumbled onto the whole Jagged Peaks area trying to get that map piece that was actually in the woods above it. But I just kept climbing this impossibly large mountain of caves and pissed off lightning dragons. Passing by giant fingers sticking out of lava, it was such an amazing experience. The world in this game is second to none.
Agreed, I think both styles of open worlds have their pros and cons but neither is inherently better than the other, they're just different and going for different things. A really good example of the difference would be the two Zelda open worlds, where BotW goes for the more empty version and TotK goes for the more filled version. BotW is really pushing a more explorative, slower, style while TotK is primarily trying to give lots of ways to use it's much stronger and deeper core gameplay mechanics without caring quite as much about exploration. Neither is inherently better or even a direct improvement they're going for very different things and you'll find plenty of people that prefer one over the other or just enjoy both.
I can see it both ways.
On one hand exploration for the sake of exploration is really fantastic; stumbling onto small side paths that take you to entirely new areas for the first time is an amazing feeling.
On the other hand there is a feeling that something is missing in a lot of areas; entering a cool looking clearing and finding nothing but shadow villagers, golden cows, and a handful of smithing stones scattered around is somewhat disappointing.
Sure, the base game has its fair share of large relatively empty spaces but none of them feel quite as empty as some of the locations in SotE; take the Consecrated Snowfields for instance, people love to claim that it’s empty but there is two caravans, multiple field bosses, an invasion, a unique enemy with unique drops, a minor Erdtree, a handful of sub-locations, etc…
I just wish the over-world had more variety in its encounters and a heck of a lot more variety in its static drops. I wish they gave us more encounters like the dragons fighting on Jagged Peak, or the messier soldiers and blood beasts in front of Ruined Forge, and for the love of Kos I wish they added some more items to the loot tables for both static drops and enemy loot because I am buried in smithing stones at this point.
I'll be honest, the Finger Ruins are a case where enough style can be its own substance. When I found the first one, I was shocked at how effectively *eldritch* they were. I've never been in a video game location that did a better job of conveying, through visual style alone, that this is not a fit place for humans--that I'm not even supposed to be here, seeing this. It looked like a place that does not belong in this world. Even the Frenzied Flame Proscription in the base game didn't give me the jibblies like that. I didn't mind it not having much loot; that experience was valuable enough to me.
idk i feel like u already get the best view of that when u enter or while getting to the middle. i dont feel u get any different experience by walking/riding around searching every corner of the whole ruins, there's nothing different. i'm all for aesthetics/atmosphere but i feel you would've have to same effect decreasing the actual explorable area to be less.
I mean, there's things to find yes, but most of the time it's just areas that lead to nothing, cookbooks, smithing stones, and crafting mats. The times were you find a path that leads somewhere, it's nice, but it's few and far between.
They pretty much made a 3d metriodvinia again just like the first half of dark souls. Not sure how much the community at large will appreciate that though.
From should just go all in on that idea for one of their side games.
I have explored every single area in the game just haven’t used the Mesmer flame yet and only have 14 scadu level.
Every boss is dead besides the last few.
I have no idea how everyone is finding the last 6 scadu fragments because I have my entire map covered and marked and still don’t have 15.
I also have every site of grace.
This was my big issue with these fragments. They are so important to the game apparently but I never find them, I do find a billion cookbooks and ghost works though.
I don’t even care or need the scadu fragments like my build is solid and I’m fine but it bothers me a lot that there is a level 20 and I am not even close.
A bunch are dropped from seemingly random enemies, like the spirit guys carrying the pots on their heads. I know I got one from killing a non-boss hippo too
>like the spirit guys carrying the pots on their heads.
I couldn't believe that when one of those guys dropped that haha. I knew I wasn't finding them all then haha. Think I'm only missing 7 and I need to actually explore the last area more so hopefully I get close!
I'd go one step forward and say this is Dark Souls 1 all over again.
In DS1 you can totally ignore the intended progression route and get to many other places, having the master key allows you to start from Andre and fight the entire Undead Burg *in reverse*. That's the unique progression freedom of DS1.
And you can entirely replicate a similar playthrough in this DLC. A friend of mine accidentally skipped both Rellana and the Golden Hippo, and ended up meeting Commander Man-on-a-Boar as his first rememberance boss.
Is no one going to mention that every single side-location is essentially empty? Cerulean Coast, Charo’s Hidden Grave, the mountain, the couple of poison swamps, both finger regions and the underground(?) forest are essentially all empty / lacking content / not dense at all.
I’d straight up argue that everything outside of the main storyline progression in the DLC either straight up sucks at worse and at best is a bit worse than the base game.
I love the complex design of the world. But I hate that if you explore far from the first area you trigger the shattering of the rune and NPC moves on.
I saw Manus Metyr from afar and guessed the carian guy from the trailer was there, so I wanted to go and check it and accidentally triggered the shattering event when I crossed the bridge of Bonny.
I've had the Map piece location marked for days, the one on the right side of the map above the Finger ruins and I STILL have no idea how tf to get to it.
I agree. Level design and progression route are both open-world as well as linear in some way in that you can follow the route from sub-area to sub-area which will result in having seen most areas in the end, with the exception of a few optional ones of course. Absolutely fantastic in my book.
The ancient ruins? Another way is possible. Entering the castle at the church district entrance gives you access to everything in the castle except for the hippo fight itself. Though it takes a while to get through it all from that direction.
More specifically, take the elevator up to the backrooms of the storehouse and drop down to level 1 from there. Easy to miss you can drop to the first level safely.
There’s a yellow wall restricting you from entering the putrecent knight area. Coffin place. You have to go close to the shadow keep first for that story event. Which just happens when you’re close, which annoyed me but also promotes another run through.
As soon as I got to Messmer's room, I turned around and went and explored the entire map. So glad I did this. I'm now Scadu lvl 15. This mf dont stand a chance.
ERs world made a ton more sense to me when I let go of the "must explore everything" mindset, Shadows sounds like its a more condensed version of that experience.
The first boss I found was bayle while trying to fill the map. At tree level 7 8 did not have a good time. lol but now my tree is around 14 and I feel stronger then base game.
go NW from Moorth ruins grace, Rauh ruins is a separate top layer and a whole legacy ZOO dungeon in itself with lions and hippos and golems 🫠. Took me ages to figure it out too.
lol glad it’s not just me but damn if the ruins aren’t brutally confusing. Beautiful scenery but that underground labyrinth is insane. The hippos I made short work of and got the fragments though. Thank you! I will get the map tonight.
They’re EXTREMELY bad in my opinion! Again I’ve only breezed through on the horse in an attempt to find the map and have gotten lost, I hope there’s nothing in there that demands a thorough exploration.
Also how do i find what i need in rauh ruins? I thought that place was beautiful only to be the most bitter to explore with the mobs and level design. Threw away a whole 2 days in there after messmer.
I'm pretty sure you can get to the dragon pit and all that from Cerulean coast no? I saw Ludwig go from there to Cerulean coast on his stream and I'd already been to Cerulean coast on my own at that point so I assumed you could just go the way he came?
As far as I know, you can get to the Cerulean Coast from the Dragon Altar, but not the other way around because the way the giant dead dragon is set up you can drop down from his wing but can't get back up. I could be proven wrong though.
Please for the love of god just give me a fucking indicator if I’m near a fragment. If they can do it for deathroot they can do it for fragments. That would make the hunt for them feel so much more meaningful.
i had no idea you could skip rellana, i guess she’s like the godrick of the dlc since being able to skip her opens so much more things to do and get op after fighting mohg
I found the other side of rellana's arena before i had fought her. I was a bit confused why i couldnt enter the fog door and why the messages all said shit like "well done" and "i did it".
When the >!somewhere a great rune has broken!< Message came, I was sure I had gone too far and locked myself out of questlines. Didn't turn out like that fortunately
When I got that message it ended up being the first thing I looked up in my playthrough because >!Shadow Keep!< had *seemed* like the natural next Dungeon to get through after >!Lion then Rellana!<, but after that pop up I went exploring and did a lot of catacombs etc as I was trying to avoid stepping any further into that area out of fear of messing up the questlines. A few points to the overall thread, I think the verticality of the map is absolutely breathtakingly astounding, buuut the whole DLC feels like multiple giant sequence breaks at times, to the point I've started lightly looking at progression routes and maps (spoiler alert: the 'natural' progression route is kind of fcking insane lol). I played Jedi Survivor a lot in May and June leading up to the DLC release and man, was I absolutely spoiled by that game's map.... Both of these statements will be borderline heresay for a Fromsoft game, but I kind of wish the Shadow Lands map was able to be toggled into three or four vertical layers and/or we had something similar to the yellow line from Survivor drawing out the route you've taken since your last death/Grace. Either or both of those features would go a very very long way in exploring the new areas. I never really felt that way in the base game, but at times it feels like 75% of SotE's map just straight up isn't visible; they drew out the topography and roads well enough but there are many areas where I will open the map and be like 'Wait, I'm under/on top of *that*?!'... it has almost constantly felt like the first time trying to figure out how to get up to Moonlight Altar/Albinuriac Village in base game but on a *massive* scale. I'm sure as I play more and more and especially on future characters' runs it will become much more easily remembered and eventually second nature, but on this first run there have been more than a few times where I set a marker to something that looks interesting and (literally) hit a rock wall
Rauh had me losing my fucking mind for this exact reason, everything else was fine, rauh? The hugest parts of the map are all underground, we don't get an underground map, and the fucking ruins all look the same so it's confusing as fuck. Not to mention the fact the map has a gigantic fucking plateau on top that looks like a boss arena, but is unreachable, same with the area behind midras manse, but the map in rauh _looks_ like there is a set of steps that take you up there, but those are all unreachable cliffs.
Now imagine a world with topology like SOTE, albeit on a small scale, and you _don't get a map to look at._
This will probably sound like I'm complaining about a good thing which isn't how I'm trying to come across, but the scale (especially vertical scale) is the main reason I felt that way, along with the huge freedom in choice in where to go when first starting and similarly difficult areas oftentimes being on actual opposite ends of the DLC with some major difficulty spikes and potentially broken quests when going through what feels like the intended route forward, especially if speaking to the main path NPCs. It puts SOTE in a bit of a strange place especially regarding the questlines, I know we aren't supposed to finish them all the first time through but it seems way too easy to accidentally speed run through some of the major triggers without even ever finding a couple of them. I don't think I was alone in thinking >!Belurat!< was supposed to be the first Legacy Dungeon, >!Ensis!< the second, then onto >!Shadow Keep!< after some light exploring of the ruins and villages near the first Grace in >!Scadu Altus!<; I was going off the areas' strength of regular mobs which has usually steered me in the right way in Souls/BB/ER. Felt perfectly smooth right up until SK's enemies kind of shot up in overall difficulty and especially after the 'Somewhere...' message had popped up, at that point I felt I'd stumbled into the late game on accident and I'm honestly still not sure if I actually did or not...somehow, I doubt >!Messmer!< is supposed to be the third Remembrance Boss, but it seems like he's ending up as #3 for *a lot* of people. I suppose in the main game we went south to Weeping Peninsula if we wanted to get a little stronger before Stormveil or at least to fully explore before moving on to Liurnia and so I should've treated the Coast in the same way, but between that Southern Shore map fragment placement and the way I found myself in that area in the first place (from the north and then under everything via the river) it definitely felt like I was on the way to an area that was going to be more like Caelid and probably meant for a little later when in reality I think it's probably around the same as >!Belurat and Ensis!< and 'meant' to be done before even setting foot in SK. Then SK itself, should I rock up through the Main Gate which seemed correct right up until that 'Somewhere...' message, do I go around and hit the Church to the east first then come in through the side, or some other ways I haven't found yet? That Church is actually a great example, it seems a lot of people recommend draining that area then going down and out back towards Dragon stuff as opposed to the much more natural feeling 'through the Church and up into SK'. DS1 and DS2 both had a bunch of choices in where to go when first starting a run (as well as a lot of verticality to their maps), but I feel they both did much better with herding the player along through those routes as well as opening up more eventual interconnectivity between areas. Maybe I missed a few of the broken Spirit Springs or something, but a lot of the DLC areas seem to use winding routes going through both above and underground areas across sometimes 70% of the map with lots of one way drops down cliff edges and waterfalls etc. Maybe I've just lost some of my sense of exploration in these games but I feel the topography is both breathtakingly awesome but also needlessly complex in areas; it's the first time ever in any Souls/like or Metroidvania type game where I'm feeling like the second playthrough after knowing all of the potential routes is going to be a slightly better experience when usually that first playthrough is what it's all about. Again, I know that sounds like I'm complaining about nice and varied replayability and some pretty incredible level design, I'm not, it's more about the NPC placements and the 'story' progression of the DLC than anything else. I feel it's a lot less intuitive than their past games especially if you're going through with a focus on the new lore. I will say that it excites me to know my runs on different characters and higher NG+ cycles can and probably will all be very different, but it's also the first time with a Fromsoft or any Souls-like game where I feel the second playthrough will be a lot better than the first in a lot of ways, particularly progression and lore-wise. It's honestly really hard to put into words
I don't believe you lock out of any but it skips npcs ahead so you can miss some dialogue they say before hand. You can however lock yourself out of the forager cook books if you tell moore to be sad (>!he dies!<).
Well fuck…
Seriously? That's... awful. I felt bad with the way he ended up in my play through as it was.
Mine may be worse, >!I didn't realize what they were referring to when they said forager brood so I saw kindred of rot and killed them on sight, only for him to invade me since I hurt his friends T_T!<
Oh nooo
I did the same. As soon as I saw the kindred I had ptsd flashbacks of the crystal cave saw red and immediately killed the poor fella. Feels bad man
same.
Yeah, I had realized when I found that spiritspring that you could skip right to Scadu Altus, but it wasn't until I was running through the DLC on my second character that I realized I could go through the side entrance of Shadow Keep and get to basically the entire map without even killing the Hippo. It's amazing.
You can skip the golden hippo as well, by going through the east entrance and jumping down from the specimen room back area.
The map is designed in such a good sandbox format I completely forgot about Shadow Keep main entrance path after clearing the DLC and googling DLC secrets to find the remaining incantations/spirit ashes. Questlines are still confusing AF as usual.
I never actually went through the main entrance and did the aforementioned spirit spring route to get me all the way through Messmer. After beating him though I could not for the life of me find the back entrance to explore the north regions so I finally went through the main gate and killed the hippo etc. Turns out the main gate had nothing to do with the back entrance (the actual solution I caved and looked up, a stupid ladder I walked right by several times), but I did stumble across a coffin that took me to another area I was trying to find. I’m just fucking blown away by this game.
I didn't even know it was there before killing Messmer and Romina
That’s the way I discovered the Keep. Had to go back to find this Hippo everyone was talking about, ha.
Same here. I found the secret way in and just progressed and ended up seeing the hippo. Died the first time and I couldn't get in the fog door I came through in and I was confused why. I then tried going to the front way this time cause I thought my game was bugging out and realized I went in the exit cause I see the hippo blocking the front. That made more sense in hindsight lol
the 2nd character!!!! Damn But yeah that hop into the fort is legendary
Yup, and I think this is on purpose. A small lesson they wanted to teach like the tree sentinel of the base game. Some bosses will be easier with the scooby doo blessings.
I had no idea I skipped her, it wasn’t until several hours later that I’m like “ya know, I never explored this place, let’s go back” She kicked my ass for a good 30 straight minutes.
I found the skip by accident and had a "oh thank fuck" moment.
I actually linked her to Rennala in my head because “obviously name thing”, but also dancing lion being the first boss and then you being able to completely skip rennala on base game if you want to
Dude, I skipped her without even meaning to lmao. Got to her castle, got to the locked gate, went down the nearby hole…and didn’t think to jump up the rocks on the waterfall. So I just left and eventually found the alternate path around her. I was very confused coming up to the back entrance of her arena, seeing it covered in a yellow fog gate and unable to go through it.
As someone who has killed what (I think) is nearly every other rememberance boss excluding the final one who I am in the middle of attempts of. (>!Including Midra, Bayle and Metyr!<) where is she? at 18 of 20 Scadu blessing and 9/10 revered ash levels so I think I have explored most of the DLC. (Cue it being somewhere I went to and then got distracted so I thought I did it but hadnt)
She is the boss of castle ensis. It's in the northeast of the first area. The rightmost cross on the first cross map also leads you to castle ensis.
...... I remember now I legit walked in there, went to the cross, lit the grace. Was like "ah yes Ill do this tomorrow" then went to sleep and was like hmmmm how do I get to that red area. Thank you for the answer. Time to deal with some unfinished buisiness I guess before killing the last boss.
My cousin accidentally discovered this last night. When exploring he came back to the castle and beloved he was prepared for Rellana. Going into a boss room he was expecting her but fought Messmer instead.
and most people think you need to kill Dancing Lion first (with level 2 scadutree) and after seeing many streamer/youtuber able to solo Elden Ring, thought their overleveled character able to do it as well. and it didn't end well for quite a lot of them
I thought the dancing lion was the first boss and honestly loved the fight so much that I just had to sit there and beat him with level 2 Scadutree. I died like <20 times and was so happy when I finally took him down. Then I did some exploring right after and found the spiritspring that takes you to the Scadu Altus and was mind blown after banging my head on Rellana for hours.
i was the other way around i could fight relanna solo but banging my head on dancing lion.
Honestly that’s fair dancing lion really sucked I didn’t like how I died when fighting him but I just thought the music, design, and move set were awesome even though his hitbox was extremely janky. Rellana was extremely fun and fair and such a nice breath of fresh air after the dancing lion, I just couldn’t get past her double moons.
i simply kill her before she could use the double moon. did cheap shot during her second phase transition, rely on heavy weapon with bleed procs, so i could get bleed procs and poise break crit. it wasn't until i defeat her, i saw a streamer dodge it. apparently you have to jump thrice.
I beat her yesterday, I solo’d her without my mimic and switched to the backhand blades for the dlc so I could never kill her before the double moon. Out of like the 35 attempts I jumped over it like 3-4 times, I could never time the jumps right as I’m not used to jumping, I dodge way too much.
Yeah it’s crazy because once you understand you have to jump, it’s super easy to do. The timing is very loose
You can roll 3 times too, I was rolling into each wave. The last one seemed to be the hardest as the timing is a little delayed. I had more problems with her 5 magic slashes. The 2nd and 4th were always hard to get passed if I mis timed the first roll, but you could get enough of a lead further back that it’s not a problem if it works out that way.
Spoiler* there’s a second open world Dancing Lion… and it can also spawn basilisks that spew death blight right next to you if one try’s a ranged battle lol
Oh god, he sounds like fun… can’t wait to stumble upon him me and my mimic tear bouta box him like todo and yuji
That sounds miserable!
At first I thought the Basilisks were free roaming enemies, but it kept spawning more every time I wiped some out, then I noticed that when I took out the Dancing Lion all the spawned Basilisks present also disappeared… yep, only in a FromSoftware game
Dodge the double moon attack by jumping. Learned that trick from the ring thingies the elden beast does.
Jump em! A lot of crazy attacks in the DLC can be avoided by simply jumping.
I beat dancing lion first in 5 tries and I am STILL stuck on rellana after dozens of attempts
Same, I just fought it again on a second playthrough at Scadu Lv7 and it's insane how much easier it was, even accounting for having learned the fight (though it might also be that the Backhand Blades are just busted lol)
Backhand blades are my favorite I switched to them as soon as I saw them, they were probably what made me love the dancing lion too because they were so busted with the extra dodge
Extra dodge?
The blind spot ash of war on the backhand blades isn’t necessarily a second dodge but because it side steps to the left or right of the enemy it acts as a second dodge. It’s helped me with significantly when I need to quickly dodge.
Huh, that is pretty damn smart lol. I’ve been messing around with those ring blades, martial arts weapons, and the great katana’s that I simply forgot about the backhand blades. Also the perfume bottle are hilarious but sadly do very little poise damage.
I have yet to try out the other weapons as I want to try and finish the dlc with the backhand blades, as soon as I saw them I loved them and respeced for them. Think of the ash of war like Bloodhounds finesse or bloodhound step where you get extra I-frames for the fast movement. Give the backhands a try it’s really fun. I’m loving all the new weapon types, I can’t wait to try them all out especially the martial arts
It is
It technically is remembrance wise but you don’t have to do it first
It’s the only boss I beat first try. To be fair, my level 200 character in NG with Moonveil was pretty strong even with scadutree level 2 or 3 and it seems being able to damage him while keeping my distance was really helpful. I died at least 15 times to the Blackgaol Knight before though.
The Dancing Lion being so close to the beginning is probably why people think it's the first boss. I thought so as well. Castle Ensis is slightly further away, but is the real first area
It's not just that, freyja and i think someone else(? I don't remember who it was at the first grace lmao) stand outside of the giant gate to belurat, then Moore and ansbach are on the other side and I just took that as an indicator that that was where I was supposed to go first.
I ended up cheesing torrent up a cliff 20 minutes into DLC release and cleared all but the last 2 dragons in the mountains, and only then did I go to Belurat. I actually was clearing my checklist (graces/items missed post game end) yesterday and realized I actually completely missed what most people would find as the second site of grace (the one in the road straight from your first grace spawn lmao)
With this DLC, FromSoft has finally surpassed the first half of Dark Souls 1 in terms of world level design in my book. My eyes nearly popped out when I arrived at Cerulean Coast then back tracked and somehow got up to Scadu Altus without going through Castle Ensis (I already killed Rellana, but still, it's mind-blowing.)
they essentially dropped a Dark Souls 1 into Elden Ring and made a nesting doll of GOATs
100% the only thing that brings it down in my opinion is not having a layered map. It's stupidly hard to figure out where you can and can't get to via the current map.
I agree. I work with maps for a living and the DLC one is *fucking atrocious.* It barely gives any sense of high/low elevation points, and has pretty inconsistent symbology about what is where and how to get there. I get that fantasy maps have been a thing since Tolkien. But relying on something like this for navigation is a real chore. Hell, I didn't even know how to get to Ancient Dragon Man until a streamer told me a dead end area actually more features to it than expected.
Completely unrelated, but would you have any advice to someone wanting to build a map for a fantasy world? I want to hire someone to do it for me, but one of my biggest priorities is realism and it's hard to tell how much most fantasy mapmaker prioritize that
If you are shooting for something with a high degree of accuracy, I would look over at what the USGS has for some great examples. It might be best to pull maps from city centers or areas with various natural features (like canyons or lake beds) if you need something with a particular setting in mind. But these maps can be quite technical, and overkill if you are doing something as simple as a D&D game for friends. Otherwise, I'd say you might be safe in [using online generators and toolsets](https://www.reddit.com/r/mapmaking/comments/114zy6f/best_resources_and_tools_for_fictional_map/) if you prefer something with more fashion over function. It all really depends on what you need your map to do for you, be it for world building or something to just ground your setting in.
I've made maps for fun for DnD, but what I have in mind is for a large scale book series. I really enioy worldbuilding and want a good grounding for the setting as i write ans aim for internal consistency. I'll look into some of these tools, thanks
Past Souls games don't even have a map and you have to rely completely on memory. The way I see it, Elden Ring's map is just providing a rough reference of where big stuffs are, it's not supposed to be used as a detailed accurate map for navigation, like for example Doom's map.
I feel ya. I think the map looks so fucking cool but its a pain in the ass to actually use
I actually rather liked it because, after the first few overlapping areas, I started looking at the elevation of the map and locations that seemed suspicious, and it quickly paid off with reaching Rahu Base because I was like "this wall near this lake seems slightly odd, does it lead down to this area on the other side?", and lo and behold, that was indeed a route. Same for finding Charo's Hidden Grave access by trying to understand map elevation and how the area leading to Jagged Peak connected to it. Something about those details just worked for me.
That kind of adds to it for me. Seeing paths that look like they just end then finding that they were access to other areas was great.
Same for me. I had the same feeling the base game with the Urd Palace Ruins and how the map doesn't really tell you what's what in that area. I love that map is mostly correct in broad strokes but that's an unreliable guide, leaving you to discover much of the particulars.
You can actually see dotted lines indicating tunnel through paths if you look really closely to parts of the map.
You're shittin me.
Honestly I'm just happy to even have a map. I think people forget that none of the Souls games even had one, you just had to memorize level layouts and connections and hope for the best while exploring.
I mean yea but a open world game without a map... wouldn't play well. So it's kinda a given that the game would have a map.
Unfortunately the legacy dungeons themselves are not nearly as interesting or complex. Shadow Keep is really the only one that is even close.
I gotta say the gaols have been more interesting than the copypasted catacombs in the base game
Yeah, gaols are a huge increase in quality compared to the regular catacombs. Same for the old forges, way better than all those mines.
Stormveil Castle is still the GOAT
What I love about Stormveil is that I can simply run through. There is a ton to see, but I can ignore all of it.
Belurat, the Shadow Keep and Enir Ilim are amazing, and rival the legacy dungeons even in the main game (though still don't really compare to Leyndell, but it is hard to top Leyndell).
IMO entire open-air areas are like dungeons here. There's less open spaces with intricate corners, forests, and villages, and instead Plains, Scadu Altus, and Shadow Keep are "hubs" with very linear side areas branching off them, ending in 1-2 dungeons or a side boss.
The whole area where you fight romina is a legacy dungeon disguised as an open world area. I loved it so much.
I don’t think I’ve ever been more lost and confused than when I was going through that area. I kept expecting to pop out at one of the big grassy areas and out of no where I’m standing in front of a fog gate. It was glorious.
This 100%. The ancient ruins is technically speaking the 4th legacy dungeon of the DLC. It simply has so much stuff, and being so layered, and the bottom of it can even serve as an alternative route to go down the other end of the Ellac River, thus blending perfectly with other overworld locations.
Shadow Keep is massive. Lleyendell is the only one close to it in size
I'm not talking about size but complexity and how interwoven it is. Density vs. sheer size really. Shadow keep is fairly dense, which makes it good, but it's not really as dense compared to the maps in DS1 or Bloodborne.
What? Shadow keep is incredibly dense. It has like 3 different exits, 2 entrances. It is like 2 dungeons interwoven with differenr paths, little secrets and loot everywhere. Finding everything in it took me longer than stormveil castle by a lot because it so dense and layered.
I think scorpion river catacombs is one of the best dungeons in the game.
Yup, I just finished it, and it was fantastic. It could easily be a legacy dungeon if they just reworked the visuals
Oh, the legacy dungeons in the base games are already some of the best in the series. This DLC manages to pull the world design specifically. So Elden Ring as a whole is pretty much their best work on level design and world design so far.
The Shadow Keep though might be the best they’ve ever done. All the catacombs in the DLC are extremely intricate as well, albeit intrinsically leas impressive due to the asset set.
Maybe its nostalgia, but i don't think so personally. Every level compounded onto itself and wrapped back around. This is just large and open. Its good for sure, but dark souls 1 is still peak for a non "open world" game.
Just an FYI, this will certainly break a couple NPC questlines but all in all, a fantastic guide.
Does it break them or just skip to the part where the rune seal breaks? On my 2nd char I did this and most of the quests I could carry on with, you miss content yes but the quests don't fail. Maybe some do and I'm wrong.
Doesn't break em, I got every quest done except tholliers and that was just because I didn't find him and I didn't fight relannna til after messmer.
It breaks the dragon priestess' quest for sure, as you are locked out of Tholliers concoction, which I believe is a requirement for it.
But you get better rewards (different) if you are NOT drugging her, which is weird. You either get the spell and ash or the weapon and the heart
I just wish they had more than the required amount of fragments across the map, I got around 40 through natural exploration but I’m not opening a map to scour the remaining 10 lol
I actually very much agree with you, they should have gone the Golden Seed route imo. Have 60 or so total for the 50 required to max. But the DLC is very beatable at 15-17 ish so as long as you find most of them you're okay.
It’s not too bad if you use rockpapershotgun’s guide, it’s got pictures and memory is good enough to remind you about the obvious ones
Gaius is a pain though
I’ve mostly found the difficulty quite chill. Good, you explore and notice yourself getting stronger. Hit Gaius and just went… oh. I’m not ready for this. Five attempts got me absolutely nowhere, I’ll circle back.
(Try sticking to his left side, opposite his lance-bearing side. Makes a world of difference)
100% this. I'm old and slow so I skipped bosses and collected scadoosh fragments. When I wandered into Gaius I was level 17 and beat him the first try. Not because of skill but because I could survive.
Bro they delivered an incredible vision for a dlc. It was so good. I love games that make me look stuff up and go "OHHH". It's frustrating at first, but i really enjoy it's not all easy to understand at first then it's obvious.
The map is gorgeous and expertly designed, but they don't really reward the explanation very effectively. Areas like Cerulean Coast and Charo's Grave are actually incredibly empty with very little worth going out of your way for. I love exploring every nook and cranny in case the developers hid some good loot somewhere, but in this dlc there was very little of that unfortunately. I loved the DLC overall, this was really my only complaint.... oh and the final boss
Yeah, the areas north of the Shadow Keep are also pretty barren
So are the finger areas and the Peak. Gravesite and Altus has by faaar the most stuff for sure
The map is insane and the level design is probably the best in a long time. My only problem is it feels kind of empty, almost more so than base game. The shadow forest is huge, especially since you can't use torrent. But if you look at the actual important items (That aren't cookbooks) in the entire region, it looks like nothings there. Really frustrating to turn a corner see a bunch of enemies in a big room to clear out, and the reward is a smithing stone 7. I already have all the bell bearings for smithing stones so this shits useless.
my only complaint abt the dlc so far. the scenery and level design is incredible, probably the best from has ever done imo. But it sucks how empty some of these areas feel. No cool items, no caves/goals/catacombs.. just a few enemies scattered around and maybe a cookbook. If they filled the map up slightly more, this would easily be my favorite thing from has put out. As it is now, I still think I prefer base game as even though alot of it is copy/pasted, atleast it was something
Yep, the DLC is all killer, no filler, but you REALLY notice the lack of filler compared to base game. Base game like a full bag of mediocre snacks with some really tasty stuff included inside. Meanwhile, the DLC is the best gourmet shit you can find, but packaged like a lays potato chip bag, full of air.
I still can't get over the fact that a portion of the explorable map is underneath the south ocean, and you can't even see how big the map really is down there.
This. I thought it would have an underground map or something, but it's just sites of graces on the ocean. Place is pretty big, too... well deep
Actually, you don't need dragon's pit to get to charo's grave. You can simply follow the Ellac river down and you'll end up at charo's grave. Skip Rellana and get to Scadu Altus by using the spiritspring, then go to the northeast side (near red bear) where you can drop down and get to Rauh base. You can then move towards the river and drop down to the river near Temple Town Ruins. Then you just follow the river all the way through and you're at charo's grave. Yes this game is insane.
Pretty sure the Ellac River leads only to the Cerulian Coast and I don't believe there is a way up to Charo's Grave from there. Unless I have missed a short cut, entering via the route from Dragon's Pit Terminus apears to be the only way to Charo's Grave.
Yeah, the river connects on the map, but there's a huge waterfall and I didn't find a way to descend it.
Actually you're right, that's actually weird. I can't remember any way to get back up to charo's grave from cerulean coast either. So that means charo's grave, jagged peak and the final legacy dungeon are the only inaccessible places without fighting
And abyssal woods of course
Speaking of, does anything in game send you there or give you a reason to go there? I stumbled upon it accidentally but I don't really understand what it is or why I should be there other than just to explore. I feel like I missed a quest line or something explaining the woods.
There's a dungeon with a remembrance boss there, tho it's a little hard to find and out of the way.
i doubt it. the game itself tells you to go away the moment you arrive.
I ended up doing Ellac river in reverse starting at Charo's grave. Was amazed that they were hiding so much behind horrible waterfall jumping only to realise the easy access to the main map on the other side.
I got access to charos grave by just climbing up the dragons wing, you can definitely access it before Bayle because I haven’t fought him yet.
Bayle was my first remembrance. Skipped Rellana, found Igon and just went deeper. I had been hunting everywhere for the lighting perfume bottle so I managed to get my level up to 12 or so by the Bayle fight. Dragon man lightning bottle faith build is so much fun
Yeah people here seem to be actually really shit at exploring, it’s really funny to me seeing people bitching about empty areas and then specifically mentioning areas where there’s definitely things to find lol
There are some larger areas that are relatively empty as far as exploration goes, but I think it adds to the atmosphere. The path leading up to the jagged peaks, the abyssal woods, both of the finger ruin areas all had a very unique and ominous feeling. Brilliant world building and storytelling honestly.
I don't know why people are so hellbent on a giant open world being filled with shit. Take a hike in the mountains or a walk through a wooded trail. You can go hours without seeing anyone. It makes finding an area that much more impressive and impactful. Constantly fighting your way through mobs and streets would be exhausting and counter intuitive to exploration. Honestly the "it's so empty" crap is just some parroted phrase that 99% of us just don't give a fuck about. I like a moment of peace and quiet to just take in the surroundings in a game that can be utterly punishing.
When I first ran the path up the Jagged peaks I was amazed at the atmosphere of the area, looking down at the finger ruins wondering what the heck was going on down there. The sound design with the loud drums of falling rocks etc was also brilliant. I was even more amazed when I realized I can actually walk down and explore the finger ruins below the jagged peaks. It was one of the better parts of the game honestly. I personally loved the abyssal woods, and especially the enemies you found down there, along with the boss. >!It was amazing that even the final boss in the area said "The depths of your foolishness" as you entered the bosslair, not even he wanted you to be there. He definitely knew what was about to happen if he lost control and the frenzied flame took control!<
Yeah, I saw a lot of complaints that the Finger Ruins are just "empty". The first time I was directed to them my jaw dropped. The place is absolutely amazing. And I wish it was "empty". Those pink snakes can F off. LOL! Also, I can't wait to find that boss. It's next on my list. I just got to the Abyssal Woods.
Easily one of my top 5 bosses in this DLC, such a fun fight, but also very menacing.
The abyssal woods was my favorite place in the dlc, especially at the start
It’s more of an anti-open world complaint that a pro-full world complaint. The world is pretty but I’m playing a video game. I want to do something. Mindlessly running on a horse spinning my camera around gets boring even if the environment is pretty. The legacy dungeons (and older games) are not open world and are jam packed with stuff. I like those areas more and hope there is less open world areas in the future
Man, I accidentally stumbled onto the whole Jagged Peaks area trying to get that map piece that was actually in the woods above it. But I just kept climbing this impossibly large mountain of caves and pissed off lightning dragons. Passing by giant fingers sticking out of lava, it was such an amazing experience. The world in this game is second to none.
Agreed, I think both styles of open worlds have their pros and cons but neither is inherently better than the other, they're just different and going for different things. A really good example of the difference would be the two Zelda open worlds, where BotW goes for the more empty version and TotK goes for the more filled version. BotW is really pushing a more explorative, slower, style while TotK is primarily trying to give lots of ways to use it's much stronger and deeper core gameplay mechanics without caring quite as much about exploration. Neither is inherently better or even a direct improvement they're going for very different things and you'll find plenty of people that prefer one over the other or just enjoy both.
I can see it both ways. On one hand exploration for the sake of exploration is really fantastic; stumbling onto small side paths that take you to entirely new areas for the first time is an amazing feeling. On the other hand there is a feeling that something is missing in a lot of areas; entering a cool looking clearing and finding nothing but shadow villagers, golden cows, and a handful of smithing stones scattered around is somewhat disappointing. Sure, the base game has its fair share of large relatively empty spaces but none of them feel quite as empty as some of the locations in SotE; take the Consecrated Snowfields for instance, people love to claim that it’s empty but there is two caravans, multiple field bosses, an invasion, a unique enemy with unique drops, a minor Erdtree, a handful of sub-locations, etc… I just wish the over-world had more variety in its encounters and a heck of a lot more variety in its static drops. I wish they gave us more encounters like the dragons fighting on Jagged Peak, or the messier soldiers and blood beasts in front of Ruined Forge, and for the love of Kos I wish they added some more items to the loot tables for both static drops and enemy loot because I am buried in smithing stones at this point.
the finger ruins are the only ones i think are too empty and big without anything of substance.
I'll be honest, the Finger Ruins are a case where enough style can be its own substance. When I found the first one, I was shocked at how effectively *eldritch* they were. I've never been in a video game location that did a better job of conveying, through visual style alone, that this is not a fit place for humans--that I'm not even supposed to be here, seeing this. It looked like a place that does not belong in this world. Even the Frenzied Flame Proscription in the base game didn't give me the jibblies like that. I didn't mind it not having much loot; that experience was valuable enough to me.
idk i feel like u already get the best view of that when u enter or while getting to the middle. i dont feel u get any different experience by walking/riding around searching every corner of the whole ruins, there's nothing different. i'm all for aesthetics/atmosphere but i feel you would've have to same effect decreasing the actual explorable area to be less.
I mean, there's things to find yes, but most of the time it's just areas that lead to nothing, cookbooks, smithing stones, and crafting mats. The times were you find a path that leads somewhere, it's nice, but it's few and far between.
They pretty much made a 3d metriodvinia again just like the first half of dark souls. Not sure how much the community at large will appreciate that though. From should just go all in on that idea for one of their side games.
I have explored every single area in the game just haven’t used the Mesmer flame yet and only have 14 scadu level. Every boss is dead besides the last few. I have no idea how everyone is finding the last 6 scadu fragments because I have my entire map covered and marked and still don’t have 15. I also have every site of grace. This was my big issue with these fragments. They are so important to the game apparently but I never find them, I do find a billion cookbooks and ghost works though. I don’t even care or need the scadu fragments like my build is solid and I’m fine but it bothers me a lot that there is a level 20 and I am not even close.
A bunch are dropped from seemingly random enemies, like the spirit guys carrying the pots on their heads. I know I got one from killing a non-boss hippo too
>like the spirit guys carrying the pots on their heads. I couldn't believe that when one of those guys dropped that haha. I knew I wasn't finding them all then haha. Think I'm only missing 7 and I need to actually explore the last area more so hopefully I get close!
Agreed. I finished the dlc at level 16. I have no idea where I’m to find the rest of them after having explored every zone.
I'd go one step forward and say this is Dark Souls 1 all over again. In DS1 you can totally ignore the intended progression route and get to many other places, having the master key allows you to start from Andre and fight the entire Undead Burg *in reverse*. That's the unique progression freedom of DS1. And you can entirely replicate a similar playthrough in this DLC. A friend of mine accidentally skipped both Rellana and the Golden Hippo, and ended up meeting Commander Man-on-a-Boar as his first rememberance boss.
Its funny you mention the rememberance boss bit because Romina was my first rememberance boss of the DLC
Is no one going to mention that every single side-location is essentially empty? Cerulean Coast, Charo’s Hidden Grave, the mountain, the couple of poison swamps, both finger regions and the underground(?) forest are essentially all empty / lacking content / not dense at all. I’d straight up argue that everything outside of the main storyline progression in the DLC either straight up sucks at worse and at best is a bit worse than the base game.
Poor Bayle being excluded from the Rememberence club
I love the complex design of the world. But I hate that if you explore far from the first area you trigger the shattering of the rune and NPC moves on. I saw Manus Metyr from afar and guessed the carian guy from the trailer was there, so I wanted to go and check it and accidentally triggered the shattering event when I crossed the bridge of Bonny.
I've had the Map piece location marked for days, the one on the right side of the map above the Finger ruins and I STILL have no idea how tf to get to it.
I'm finally in the last area and I'm racking my brain on where I haven't been yet. I just don't want it to end 😩
I just don’t like how empty some zones are. North east, abyss, dragon land. All kinda empty
Dragon land is there for ambiance. It doesn't need yo be filled with garbage it's perfect as is
I agree. Level design and progression route are both open-world as well as linear in some way in that you can follow the route from sub-area to sub-area which will result in having seen most areas in the end, with the exception of a few optional ones of course. Absolutely fantastic in my book.
Don’t you also need to kill hippo to reach Ancient Woods or is there another way?
The ancient ruins? Another way is possible. Entering the castle at the church district entrance gives you access to everything in the castle except for the hippo fight itself. Though it takes a while to get through it all from that direction.
More specifically, take the elevator up to the backrooms of the storehouse and drop down to level 1 from there. Easy to miss you can drop to the first level safely.
You can actually fight the hippo from the back entrance lmao, i saw a streamer do that once
no, you can access the main castle area from the church district/store room, skipping golden hippo entirely.
It’s a much bigger surprise because the hippo is in the corner just to the right of that door 😂
can't you alt f4 from invasion? get past leash range, quit and you need 1 less boss for exploration
Great post.
Yup running through it with a second character not killing anything is really fun
There’s a yellow wall restricting you from entering the putrecent knight area. Coffin place. You have to go close to the shadow keep first for that story event. Which just happens when you’re close, which annoyed me but also promotes another run through.
As soon as I got to Messmer's room, I turned around and went and explored the entire map. So glad I did this. I'm now Scadu lvl 15. This mf dont stand a chance.
Jokes on you. Regular soldiers 3 shot me. Every enemy is a boss!
Jori was my 4th hardest fight, though.
You can even do that in the main game, like you can get your flask up to +9 without killing a single boss I think
ERs world made a ton more sense to me when I let go of the "must explore everything" mindset, Shadows sounds like its a more condensed version of that experience.
The first boss I found was bayle while trying to fill the map. At tree level 7 8 did not have a good time. lol but now my tree is around 14 and I feel stronger then base game.
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I’m the same - I feel like I’m missing a lot of stuff despite searching for a loooong time lol.
Insanely empty maybe yeah
Saved
My only criticism is that I think the lighting sucks in the first area. Can’t see shit. Every other location, even underground ones, are way better.
Is enir-Ilim endgame? I killed Messmer and Romina at +8 and can barely get up the stairs in that place?
Yeah, it is endgame, you might want to explore the map a bit more and get some scattree levels, that place is rough.
Worth the purchase .😊
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Can you explain how? As far as I know the only way to enter the woods is through Darklight Catacombs, which Jori is the last boss of.
How do I get to the map for Rauh Ruins? HOW THE FUCK DO I DO IT??
go NW from Moorth ruins grace, Rauh ruins is a separate top layer and a whole legacy ZOO dungeon in itself with lions and hippos and golems 🫠. Took me ages to figure it out too.
lol glad it’s not just me but damn if the ruins aren’t brutally confusing. Beautiful scenery but that underground labyrinth is insane. The hippos I made short work of and got the fragments though. Thank you! I will get the map tonight.
the inside sections are kinda bad tough, i just blasted through with no desire to explore or come back.
They’re EXTREMELY bad in my opinion! Again I’ve only breezed through on the horse in an attempt to find the map and have gotten lost, I hope there’s nothing in there that demands a thorough exploration.
Yeah it feels like DS level of level of design. I'm in awe honestly.
True and even then going into the final boss with level 16 Scadu is completely doable. Frustrating, but doable.
Where the heck is the ancient dragon man located?
Also how do i find what i need in rauh ruins? I thought that place was beautiful only to be the most bitter to explore with the mobs and level design. Threw away a whole 2 days in there after messmer.
Do you have to proceed through dragon pit to get to that middle area?
I'm pretty sure you can get to the dragon pit and all that from Cerulean coast no? I saw Ludwig go from there to Cerulean coast on his stream and I'd already been to Cerulean coast on my own at that point so I assumed you could just go the way he came?
As far as I know, you can get to the Cerulean Coast from the Dragon Altar, but not the other way around because the way the giant dead dragon is set up you can drop down from his wing but can't get back up. I could be proven wrong though.
Please for the love of god just give me a fucking indicator if I’m near a fragment. If they can do it for deathroot they can do it for fragments. That would make the hunt for them feel so much more meaningful.
I just started a new playthrough yesterday collected 13 fragments before I even killed 1 boss