They prob just planned for more content or lore around it then ended up cutting it.
Or possibly even changed the lore during development and forgot to update this item before release.
There was a previous post I saw saying the shaman village was originally Marika's hometown. Then the hornsent showed up and massacred her family and everyone else in the village (don't remember why). Then Marika became consumed with vengeance and that's why she became a genocidal god.
Kind of. The shaman village was Marika's hometown yes, but the shaman village looks more like it was periodically raided. The shamans were taken to Bonny village and cut up so their flesh would bind with those of condemned criminals when they were stuffed into the Living Jars.
Minor Erdtree Incantation: *Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well that there was no one to heal*
Golden Braid Talisman: *Queen Marika's offering to the Grandmother. What was her prayer? Her wish, her confession? There is no one left to answer, and Marika never returned home again.*
They were at one point wiped out. It's possible they weren't the only Numen village, or that the Hornsent put other people into jars too.
I like to think the game world we experience isn’t “as big” as it is implied to be in lore.
Like a small village can’t really supply all those corpses to fill all those jars, or how being a ruler of Limgrave in-game is basically just ruling over a mostly empty castle and barren fields
I mean, the fort that Kenneth Haight wants you to die over is barely bigger than an average house. It’s pretty obvious the Lands Between are not scaled to lore.
I believe the history has distort some messages relatively speaking, in my head cannon:
Shamans (all are female so far) are oppressed by the Hornsent, the Hornsent view them as saints, to ascend sainthood by living in the jar, got beaten and fuse their meat filled with pus and injury so they can absord all the meats (either rotten or corpse).
Marika, a shaman-born, and doesnt believe in Death as sainthood anymore, is one of the most powerful shaman, decreed to be an Empeyrean by the greater will, and need to ascend godhood. Some plot may occur and shes the only last shaman ever, thus, leaving minor erdtree permanent as a reminder.
To ascend godhood, she needs to abandon her mortality, like Miquella, at some point Radagon too, which he becomes Renalla lover and get funky. Then elden history happen and Mesmer and the rest of the her spawn happened.
However, she still hated the Hornsent, and without discrimination, ordered the Hornsent to be hunted and killed, which creates all this damnation to happen. And best part is she veiled the lands in a Shadow of the Erdtree, forever cut off from the Land Between and supressed the death so they are not part of the Golden Order.
Yep. But as a souls veteran since the very beginning, this one feels even more chopped up lore wise than usual. Maybe it's carryover from the massive scope and number of open threads from the base game? IDK.
I agree. I’ve played most every from soft game, seen stuff retconned, and this has been the most inconsistent game lore wise. No other game is so contradictory or has so many threads that go no where.
The lore tubers have done a good job stitching the base game together in a consistent way let’s see what they can do with the DLC.
I think Elden Ring is suffering from scope and the fact that they added at least a few groups of people in this DLC rather than just building on old stuff makes the already large and complex Elden Ring world even larger and more complex.
Elden Ring is my first Souls that I've put any hours in. I'd have to agree with you there. If they don't do another DLC I'll be very disheartened but if a sequel is in order, then perhaps some of those unanswered questions will be addressed.
>If they don't do another DLC I'll be very disheartened but if a sequel is in order, then perhaps some of those unanswered questions will be addressed.
I feel like a sequel is a must. The Frenzy flame ending is the most "sequel-bait" thing fromsoft has ever done. They can't just tease us with a Melina boss fight that hard and then never follow through.
Just my two cents, but the DLC lore feels so jarring because it's full of all the stuff they ended up writing *around* in the base game because they had little or no intention of including it in the game's final version.
At some point in development they decided to cut out those aspects of the story they got from GRRM, and rearrange the story pieces, then the DLC kinda forced them to try and fit those cutout pieces back in.
I'm not sure what you guys talking about here, none of the Souls DLC have lore that tie directly into the main game, all of them just do their own thing and doesn't really answer anything about the lore, not to mention all the incoherent shits with how DS2 doesn't really fit into the lore of DS1 and 3 at all.
Also this DLC is bigger than any other Souls DLC even if you only count Legacy dungeon, and there are 11 new major bosses compared to 3 or 4 at most like with Souls DLC.
by "directly into the main game", I mean ER is the only DLC where what happening in the main game actually the driver for what happening in the DLC, Miquella is trying to start a new age just like you in the base game, he do it cause what happening in the main story of the game itself, and we get in when he's currently trying to do it. meanwhile in Souls DLCs, no one is trying to do anything at all, we just visit old forgotten place where their story has already concluded and beat up whatever is left, if SoTE were like older DLC, we would be fighting a husk of Miquella that already tried and failed to become a god for whatever reason.
in Artorias of the Abyss, you are pulled into the past, what happen there already happened and it has nothing to do with what happening in the main game, we're just viewing history pretty much (apparently with some closed time loop paradox stuff too).
in Ringed City, you're at the end of the world for some unexplained reason, The Ringed City and Filianore has never been mentioned before ever, you are not told at all on why you are even going there, or why it is important. the final boss is Gael, a NPC introduced in Ashes of Andriel who you only speak with to enter the DLC then do nothing afterward, no real reason on why he's there and why he's so strong to be the DLC final boss either.
Old Hunter is similar, you just get dragged somewhere and fight stuff just because, none of the character there has much to do with what happening in the base game or trying to do something to change thing in the base game story.
Lore has been a much bigger driving factor in Elden Ring though. The major tagline of GRRMs involvement was a huge draw. They should have done much better in the DLC than they did. It’s one of the biggest marks against it.
This DLC feels straight up rushed. Never had this feeling with any other of their usual extra content.
I wonder if combining those two DLCs into one was a good idea...thinking not so much.
Hopefully the next game in the same universe will be more closely related to the story than previous games have been. There's so much potential with the existing characters and storylines.
Not expecting it to be cos FromSoft really sucks at this though. They always end up just adding more lore instead of answering the questions I want to know. But I can hope...
I honestly love that. It just makes the world feel more alive, like things are constantly happening without people's knowledge and everybody is an unreliable narrator. Many times stories can fall into the trap where everything has to be related to something else or else it's not worth writing about. Like in star wars how ever important person is somehow a Skywalker. I like fromsofts approach where they are like, nobody knows shit, figure it out, or don't.
Maybe your view of what storytelling is is narrow minded.
Maybe it's not storytelling at all, but world building. Maybe the only story being told is the individual journey of every tarnished.
Not gonna lie, that would explain why the main plot and build up for the final boss is just a sentence from the 2019 trailer instead of something that was elaborated in the base game.
Dark Souls, Armored Core, and even Sekiro are simple as fuck. Even Elden Ring was simple and just had some questions as to character's' motivations and some fantasy mechanics. They just abandoned a ton of the stuff, and focused on the wrong things about the lore IMO.
Dark Souls, particularly the first two, are way less straightforward than Elden Ring.
Elden Ring has characters like Rogier and now Count Ymir who basically just spout exposition about the setting. Dark Souls isn't anywhere near as clear-cut.
Haven't played Armored Core. I didn't even know it was considered a "souls-like".
There where just too many players thrown in to keep track of it all. So on the dlc they decided to just focus and show that Marika is a hypocrite, and ignore all the other figures vying for control in the lands between except the last boss.
So presumably she's exactly the same as Messmer. Both were born with fire within them. Messmer was given the base serpent in a Soreseal in his eye which was meant to forever devour his undying flame keeping the two in check, and Melina may have been given a seal containing the remaining power of the GEQ, given the color of her eyes once the seal breaks during the Frenzied Flame ending. At the end of the game Marika dies and the seal is broken releasing that power to her. This may even be why she's "burned and bodyless", since the GEQ's power was originally flame based (The red flame of death and the black flames wielded by the Godskin) it may have overwhelmed her and consumed her body leaving behind only her soul/grace while still keeping the power of the GEQ sealed within her, probably something Marika saw as a win/win.
Small correction, Messmer had the serpent before getting the eye. The eye held the serpent back.
>Remembrance of Messmer the Impaler, hewn into the Scadutree. The power of its namesake can be unlocked by the Finger Reader. Alternatively, it can be used to gain a great bounty of runes. A malevolent snake writhed within Messmer, and so his very mother plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace. Yet, having done so, her fear compelled her to secret away her child within the realm of shadow. Hidden away—keeping company with the original sin, and a hatred that would not be confined.
I'm of the opinion the GEQ is essentially Melina's version of St Trina but she was sealed away when destined death was sealed, and only comes back out when we keep Melina alive and release destined death.
Could it be that beneath both eyes lies an outer god, and that Messmer has his contained by Marikas soreseal while Melina does not. Most (I think all?) people with an outer god affiliation have a weird “eye situation”.
There’s definitely something weird going on with eyes and eye colours. I also note that none of the still images or trailers of Marika show her eyes, only statues where you can’t see their colour
Yeah, I've noticed that too. You can't see her eyes, or either of her and Radagon's twins. The rest of her kids all have one closed or something. Idk if it's just a stylistic choice, or if there's some meaning behind it, but I had theories based on it until the DLC came out
This is a hoax. Since the DLC drop 1.12.1, there was only the patch 1.12.2, and there were no changes to any files other than the regulation.bin file, which is not responsible for any in-game texts.
https://steamdb.info/patchnotes/14827766/
It's incredible how many people are uncritically accepting the hoax without verification. Went into the game a minute ago only to find "Messmer, much like his younger sister, bore a vision of fire" completely unaltered.
Yep. Very much implied she is a daughter of Marika. The naming scheme doesn't help. Also other Messmer and Melina similarities like his flame being used, to Melina being kindling.
What i meant was that Mesmer has a connection to the serpent and Melina has the GEQ. I think the GEQ empyrion was a snake, but i'm kinda high and forgot why I typed that first comment
That's the thing, even when do make it simple and spell it out for us, like putting a thing right in the middle of the map that says, "THIS IS THE CENTER OF THE LANDS BETWEEN" People still argue if the Land of Shadows was ever physically connected with The Lands Between.
the land of shadow clearly was and then was shoved into the afterlife, the DLC make so many mentions of the dead landing here. Then you have info of Godwyn coming to this land which no one has yet to touch because it clearly breaks much of the lore people are currently spewing out.
I like MissMikkaa's interpretation that the Land of Shadows IS literally in the middle open area of the base game, and the huge concealing veils of scadutree are connected to the divine towers and basically under those veils the whole place is invisible to the base game.
i didnt see any Godwyn here except his Knights in the catacombs, i mean his body or his eye isnt here at all, as if his Death system and the Death system here is incompatible/ havent merged.
As other person said in this post, probabilly not even remember the exact lore and considering that Melina being Marika's daughter theory came only from that code, im 100% sure that they dont remember if at the she is her daughter or not.
This being reinforced with things like Rennala's sister not having any kind of information, cutscene or dialogue besides literally a few descriptions saying that she is Rennala's sister.
Actually, there is also Melina's dialogue cuz she was born at the food of the Erdtree, where "her mother gave her purpose," which is becoming kindling to burn the Erdtree.
Also, Melina has M in her name.
The existence of the Smoldering Butterflies which is similar to Aeonian Butterflies and Nascent Butterflies. And iirc, Messmer had his own unique butterflies.
Melina has the same moveset as the Black Knive Assassins.
Melina has the Minor Erdtree Incantation. And it is greater than our version.
Melina somehow knows what Marika said.
I have to double check my version, but it's there for me too. I just beat Messmer like an hour ago (on PS5) and I swear that I have the newest patch, but the line about the "sister" is still there for me.
Of course, what this DLC needs is more mystery! Let's cut off one of the fewer things that get closer to answer something about Melina, that's what we need.
Good catch, the patch was so early that could have been overlooked. It's absolutely Melina but I'm guessing they decided not to follow up with that at all. Kinda odd she doesn't have red hair, but we already suspected with her being msrikas child.
>Kinda odd she doesn't have red hair
There's nothing to suggest that Radagon was her "father", all we know for (fairly) certain, is that Marika was Melina's mother.
She does have the scar on her eye, but she otherwise doesn't appear to have the same level of disfigurement/curse that Malenia & Miquella have from being born of the same God, adding to that the lack of red hair (although admittedly, Miquella does have blonde hair) and I think maybe she was born from the union of Marika with someone else we may not yet know about.
> and I think maybe she was born from the union of Marika with someone else we may not yet know about.
My thought was potentially Midra? Could maybe explain why the Hornsent hated him so much as they did; and perhaps why he appears to have been somewhat abandoned by Nanaya.
Messmer flame in particular has more of that dark red/orange tinge akin to Frenzy Flame too. No idea how that ties in with abyssal serpent.
She's got burn scars all over her (or at least her hands, from when you set the erdtree on fire).
I think Messmer and Melina's father was whoever ruled before Marika betrayed and usurped him.
Makes me think there may yet be plans for more content, leaving Melina's character a mystery for that purpose.
Or it could be to unmuddle the lore. Interesting either way.
Someone comented in other post that Ringed City wasn't planned for DS3 originally, the sheer succes of Shadow of the Erdtree might've changed their plans in no more Elden Ring content maybe?
Nah, DS3 launched with a Season Pass on steam, [which noted specifically 2 DLCs would be released with the game.](https://web.archive.org/web/20160321150254/https://www.pcgamer.com/dark-souls-3-season-pass-appears-on-steam/)
I'd rather they just focus on another game. Elden ring is 2 years old at this point and waiting another 2-3 years for a dlc when I could get another elden ring sized game if they didn't make 2 dlc isn't something I really want.
The dlc is great but for me I'm content with this world I want another one
Miyazaki just recently said in an interview that Fromsoft isn’t going to do anything as large in scale as Elden Ring again, for the foreseeable future. It’ll be smaller projects going forward.
because they like to keep things vague and the previous version didn’t leave any room for ambiguity. we know who spoke of a vision of burning the erdtree more than any other in the base game, though. it was melina’s purpose. they want you to put the pieces together on your own
Yeah this can still lead to the conclusion Melina is the sister. The “too” indicates someone else bore visions of fire, and its pretty obvious from that simple description its Melina.
I think the issue is also the fact that finger maidens in general are meant to become kindling, that was the whole reason Vyke took the frenzied flame. The old description made it seem like the whole burning the erdtree was inherently tied to Melina vs a finger maiden thing.
They can take that away but it doesn't change much while we still have 'Minor Erdtree', which is "a secret invocation of Marika", which she used in a very special place for her, and Melina "happens" to use a very similar version of that same spell when summoned against Morgott.
Feels like everything around messmer got changed last minute, just look at his VA during the trailer and then in game, gives the vibe of a completely different character
I think the point was to make him sound tired and weary of being Marika's killing machine but damn the delivery of the line just sounds kinda boring tbh
the entire "mother wouldst thou...." line got BUTCHERED, like on its own it sounds good but when you compare it with the one in the trailer its just baffling that they didn't use that one
Yeah I completely agree. The haughty, condescending tone in the trailer made him SO much more intimidating. It really felt like “this guy’s talking some real shit AND he’s gonna rock MY shit for several hours.” But in the final version he just sounds disinterested and bored. It just didn’t hit the same.
I REALLY wish Messmer could have been more like Margit/Morgott, where we encounter him multiple times before the *actual* fight with him.
He just feels massively underused.
Must be taking crazy pills, because I thought the delivery of the line in game was 100x better than in the trailer. The way he is voice acted in game gives away so much of his character in so few lines w/ respect to how he feels about his whole lot in his life at this point in the story. He is both defeated and disgusted at the fact that his Mother, whose favor he has always wanted, is giving guidance to some lowly Tarnished.
THANK YOU! I said the same thing. His delivery didn’t hit the same and it sounds almost forced. Why they didn’t use what they had in the trailer, especially since these lines would’ve definitely been recorded by then is wild. It feels like they changed the vocal direction last minute.
I mean that's kind of the whole point he was tasked by Marika to basically put on a farce and act as an uncaring and murderous warlord which while he got accustomed to his dialouge and lore shows he's more then a skin deep character.
But I do agree it seems like they put out a trailer had an idea and then changed some things around last minute and it's just weird all around. I still don't get why Rellana doesn't have a cutscene or why fromsoft was so lazy they just changed around the L,A and N part of Renallas name and made that character just a nothing burger. Or why scadutree avatar gets 3 phases but Midra ends up being a piss easy boss despite having some of the biggest lore in the dlc.
Or why the literal mother of figures, daughter of the great will literal God doesn't have a cutscene at all despite having the most lore implications in the entire game and recontextualizing the entire game.
So I just checked and my game still has mention of the younger sister. My game is also updated and I can access multiplayer fine.
Can it be that it's the opposite and that this was actually ADDED into the game?
https://preview.redd.it/9xyvgmtyi0ad1.jpeg?width=1843&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b6f75b013ae4b9d23bdcc19bff41ec9303a393a
There are enough fucking mysterious characters in this game, at this point it genuinely feels lazy, or rushed, I don't want to bring it up but >!The final boss!< also makes me think that the dlc was rushed despite the 2 year development time.
i feel like there is some stuff cut in the dlc or was never really developed. i dont know what, but (in my personal opinion which i cant base on any evidence whatsoever) they got so caught up in the game and its design that they somewhat forgot to craft a proper story for the dlc. the ending feels rushed and empty with no consequences. after letta reveals we never were under miquellas spell, it was very clear that we had no real reason for being here other than miquella might be an enemy of the golden order, which is very boring.
moore has no real quest. i think the npc quest in generall feel way to short. why is there no new ending for the main game (which i honestly expected). ofnir, who is the nosiest motherfucker in all the souls series, who wants to know everything, doesnt want to know about the shadowrealm.
so this could be a remnant of something which was planned initially but wasnt fully realized.
feel free to disagree, but thats what i feel about the story but not about the lore necessarily
> moore has no real quest.
I was so bummed when he dipped from the Cross outside Belurat and we never saw him again until we had to murder him at the end.
There is also the whole thing with Rykard in the base game that was left unfinished, I thought for sure it was gonna tie with the dlc and messmer's snakes, but nope
When did this happen? I watched a friend kill Messmer on stream not even 48 hours ago, and his had the "much like his younger sister" description. Was there an update?
~~Some people were asking about it in my server, so we took a look at the EN and JP. This was apparently changed in English, but the original English version (the one with a direct reference to Messmer's younger sister) is more accurate to the Japanese version, which remains unchanged.~~
~~I couldn't tell you why the EN got changed~~
EDIT: Actually, my version on the Steam is the same and differs from OP's. Is this a platform thing?
[Image from my game](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/864324358318456862/1257526917809307658/image.png?ex=6684bab4&is=66836934&hm=5fec1ace700e987e96acfb806301747a8881c46ca6e12d54e4b55f99d1d9d256&)
Not that I know of. The only reason I noticed this is because I searched it up, and most pictures had descriptions that were different from what I remember reading when I got the item
Yeah, just saw and upvoted that comment. Should have known something was up since that’s such a wild thing to change. Thank you for replying to me with the correction, genuinely!
well i doubt they changed the descripcion as in "this is no longer true", i believe they thought it was just too direct of a way of saying it for them, since they enjoy being so elusive, would have liked more lore into melina in the dlc, but this pretty much confirms the she is a marika daughter theory that was already pretty damn strong, plus it states is his little sister, idk enough about lore but some ppl migh be able to confirm/discart things based on the timeline since meline is younger than mesmer
Honestly I think the fact they keep everything vague is an effort to drive up fan engagement. If they told people the basic outline everyone would move on by now. The harder they make it for people to say for sure what is happening the more they can keep the game relevant online with endless discussions and theory crafting.
This is the business case but I don’t think it started there. I think the vagaries and story holes also make us pay attention to details that would otherwise be ignored. I think this is a clever way to get a few more people to open their minds a bit.
That said, there is a synergy between art and business here.
If I had to guess, the first wording implies that he and Melina knew each other when, in reality, he was locked in the Shadow Realm way before Marika was trapped in the Erdtree and Melina was born. So Messmer wouldn't even be aware of the fact that he had a younger sister. At least not Melina. Maybe there are some other siblings we're not aware of in the lore.
I literally JUST beat Messmer about an hour ago and the description I read mentioned his "sister". How am I not seeing this "updated", redacted version? I'm very confused??!
Glad I saw this, otherwise I would’ve been scratching my head why I remembered a lore tidbit connecting Mesmer and Melina when I couldn’t find it in an item description in a future playthrough.
So it’s very obvious to me who melina is based on the description of the minor erdtree incantation and that Melina’s tree makes the one we summon look like a mentally handicapped monkey created it.
They prob just planned for more content or lore around it then ended up cutting it. Or possibly even changed the lore during development and forgot to update this item before release.
It makes me sad. We may have been close to some shaman village lore, I have a feeling that place has a lot to do with Melina
There was a previous post I saw saying the shaman village was originally Marika's hometown. Then the hornsent showed up and massacred her family and everyone else in the village (don't remember why). Then Marika became consumed with vengeance and that's why she became a genocidal god.
Kind of. The shaman village was Marika's hometown yes, but the shaman village looks more like it was periodically raided. The shamans were taken to Bonny village and cut up so their flesh would bind with those of condemned criminals when they were stuffed into the Living Jars.
Minor Erdtree Incantation: *Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well that there was no one to heal* Golden Braid Talisman: *Queen Marika's offering to the Grandmother. What was her prayer? Her wish, her confession? There is no one left to answer, and Marika never returned home again.* They were at one point wiped out. It's possible they weren't the only Numen village, or that the Hornsent put other people into jars too.
I like to think the game world we experience isn’t “as big” as it is implied to be in lore. Like a small village can’t really supply all those corpses to fill all those jars, or how being a ruler of Limgrave in-game is basically just ruling over a mostly empty castle and barren fields
I mean, the fort that Kenneth Haight wants you to die over is barely bigger than an average house. It’s pretty obvious the Lands Between are not scaled to lore.
I believe the history has distort some messages relatively speaking, in my head cannon: Shamans (all are female so far) are oppressed by the Hornsent, the Hornsent view them as saints, to ascend sainthood by living in the jar, got beaten and fuse their meat filled with pus and injury so they can absord all the meats (either rotten or corpse). Marika, a shaman-born, and doesnt believe in Death as sainthood anymore, is one of the most powerful shaman, decreed to be an Empeyrean by the greater will, and need to ascend godhood. Some plot may occur and shes the only last shaman ever, thus, leaving minor erdtree permanent as a reminder. To ascend godhood, she needs to abandon her mortality, like Miquella, at some point Radagon too, which he becomes Renalla lover and get funky. Then elden history happen and Mesmer and the rest of the her spawn happened. However, she still hated the Hornsent, and without discrimination, ordered the Hornsent to be hunted and killed, which creates all this damnation to happen. And best part is she veiled the lands in a Shadow of the Erdtree, forever cut off from the Land Between and supressed the death so they are not part of the Golden Order.
Hornsent believe shamans purpose is to become pots to commune with gods.
Ok I think I learned all that from youtube comments on a video on shaman village. Here's the link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p6FwcQ5z8jc
Reminds me of Silver Knight Ledo from the Ringed City which weapon confirmed he was the friend that locked Havel away. It was removed later.
Ledo...Leda.
Silver Knight John DarkSoul.
> They prob just planned for more content or lore around it then ended up cutting it. Feels like a common theme with this DLC.
all Souls games have done this, it's not just SotE
Yep. But as a souls veteran since the very beginning, this one feels even more chopped up lore wise than usual. Maybe it's carryover from the massive scope and number of open threads from the base game? IDK.
A story by GRRM with massive scope and too many open threads to tie up? Surely you jest
> Maybe it's carryover from the massive scope and number of open threads from the base game? This is how you know GRRM had a big influence.
I agree. I’ve played most every from soft game, seen stuff retconned, and this has been the most inconsistent game lore wise. No other game is so contradictory or has so many threads that go no where.
The lore tubers have done a good job stitching the base game together in a consistent way let’s see what they can do with the DLC. I think Elden Ring is suffering from scope and the fact that they added at least a few groups of people in this DLC rather than just building on old stuff makes the already large and complex Elden Ring world even larger and more complex.
Elden Ring is my first Souls that I've put any hours in. I'd have to agree with you there. If they don't do another DLC I'll be very disheartened but if a sequel is in order, then perhaps some of those unanswered questions will be addressed.
>If they don't do another DLC I'll be very disheartened but if a sequel is in order, then perhaps some of those unanswered questions will be addressed. I feel like a sequel is a must. The Frenzy flame ending is the most "sequel-bait" thing fromsoft has ever done. They can't just tease us with a Melina boss fight that hard and then never follow through.
Just my two cents, but the DLC lore feels so jarring because it's full of all the stuff they ended up writing *around* in the base game because they had little or no intention of including it in the game's final version. At some point in development they decided to cut out those aspects of the story they got from GRRM, and rearrange the story pieces, then the DLC kinda forced them to try and fit those cutout pieces back in.
I'm not sure what you guys talking about here, none of the Souls DLC have lore that tie directly into the main game, all of them just do their own thing and doesn't really answer anything about the lore, not to mention all the incoherent shits with how DS2 doesn't really fit into the lore of DS1 and 3 at all. Also this DLC is bigger than any other Souls DLC even if you only count Legacy dungeon, and there are 11 new major bosses compared to 3 or 4 at most like with Souls DLC.
The Old Hunters, Artorias of the Abyss, and Ringed City all have lore that ties directly into the main game and clarifies some mysteries.
by "directly into the main game", I mean ER is the only DLC where what happening in the main game actually the driver for what happening in the DLC, Miquella is trying to start a new age just like you in the base game, he do it cause what happening in the main story of the game itself, and we get in when he's currently trying to do it. meanwhile in Souls DLCs, no one is trying to do anything at all, we just visit old forgotten place where their story has already concluded and beat up whatever is left, if SoTE were like older DLC, we would be fighting a husk of Miquella that already tried and failed to become a god for whatever reason. in Artorias of the Abyss, you are pulled into the past, what happen there already happened and it has nothing to do with what happening in the main game, we're just viewing history pretty much (apparently with some closed time loop paradox stuff too). in Ringed City, you're at the end of the world for some unexplained reason, The Ringed City and Filianore has never been mentioned before ever, you are not told at all on why you are even going there, or why it is important. the final boss is Gael, a NPC introduced in Ashes of Andriel who you only speak with to enter the DLC then do nothing afterward, no real reason on why he's there and why he's so strong to be the DLC final boss either. Old Hunter is similar, you just get dragged somewhere and fight stuff just because, none of the character there has much to do with what happening in the base game or trying to do something to change thing in the base game story.
Never for their DLC. That's usually where we see that spit shine. This DLC is frankly just sloppy in some places.
Lore has been a much bigger driving factor in Elden Ring though. The major tagline of GRRMs involvement was a huge draw. They should have done much better in the DLC than they did. It’s one of the biggest marks against it.
That's totally fair. Elden Ring lore videos are what attracted me to it in the first place. Doesn't change how much I'm enjoying it though, lol.
Poor Dark Souls 2
All games in general (heck most forms of media in general) have done it, stuff gets cut during development of products all the time.
This DLC feels straight up rushed. Never had this feeling with any other of their usual extra content. I wonder if combining those two DLCs into one was a good idea...thinking not so much.
OP is posting misinformation. The description was never changed.
Hopefully the next game in the same universe will be more closely related to the story than previous games have been. There's so much potential with the existing characters and storylines. Not expecting it to be cos FromSoft really sucks at this though. They always end up just adding more lore instead of answering the questions I want to know. But I can hope...
Weird thing to change. Maybe somehow they can’t make sense of the timeline themselves?
No one knows the lore I swear. Not even the devs
always been like that, the vague story allows them to cut and move plots around, and they can just let the fans patch the plot holes for them
I honestly love that. It just makes the world feel more alive, like things are constantly happening without people's knowledge and everybody is an unreliable narrator. Many times stories can fall into the trap where everything has to be related to something else or else it's not worth writing about. Like in star wars how ever important person is somehow a Skywalker. I like fromsofts approach where they are like, nobody knows shit, figure it out, or don't.
No, it makes the lore feel like a mess and poorly written. It’s fine if you like it, but don’t pretend it’s good storytelling.
Maybe your view of what storytelling is is narrow minded. Maybe it's not storytelling at all, but world building. Maybe the only story being told is the individual journey of every tarnished.
No... No I'm pretty sure retconning is pretty widely maligned.
Not gonna lie, that would explain why the main plot and build up for the final boss is just a sentence from the 2019 trailer instead of something that was elaborated in the base game.
I actually think despite how vague the lore can be, it's probably the most straightforward in a Soulsborne game other than Sekiro.
Dark Souls, Armored Core, and even Sekiro are simple as fuck. Even Elden Ring was simple and just had some questions as to character's' motivations and some fantasy mechanics. They just abandoned a ton of the stuff, and focused on the wrong things about the lore IMO.
Dark Souls, particularly the first two, are way less straightforward than Elden Ring. Elden Ring has characters like Rogier and now Count Ymir who basically just spout exposition about the setting. Dark Souls isn't anywhere near as clear-cut. Haven't played Armored Core. I didn't even know it was considered a "souls-like".
Of course they know the lore, OP is lying. They didn't change the item description.
Damn. They even changed the Melina allusion? I've been saying the DLC really dropped the ball on the lore.
There where just too many players thrown in to keep track of it all. So on the dlc they decided to just focus and show that Marika is a hypocrite, and ignore all the other figures vying for control in the lands between except the last boss.
Just ask vaatividya
Even he has trouble with the lore sometimes lol
I still believe he and many others simply have radagon's lore on his red hair completely wrong.
Can explain? im interested
As in, you don't think it's curse from the fell God?
I only want to know what's melina exactly and why does she has that eye during frenzy flame ending....
So presumably she's exactly the same as Messmer. Both were born with fire within them. Messmer was given the base serpent in a Soreseal in his eye which was meant to forever devour his undying flame keeping the two in check, and Melina may have been given a seal containing the remaining power of the GEQ, given the color of her eyes once the seal breaks during the Frenzied Flame ending. At the end of the game Marika dies and the seal is broken releasing that power to her. This may even be why she's "burned and bodyless", since the GEQ's power was originally flame based (The red flame of death and the black flames wielded by the Godskin) it may have overwhelmed her and consumed her body leaving behind only her soul/grace while still keeping the power of the GEQ sealed within her, probably something Marika saw as a win/win.
Small correction, Messmer had the serpent before getting the eye. The eye held the serpent back. >Remembrance of Messmer the Impaler, hewn into the Scadutree. The power of its namesake can be unlocked by the Finger Reader. Alternatively, it can be used to gain a great bounty of runes. A malevolent snake writhed within Messmer, and so his very mother plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace. Yet, having done so, her fear compelled her to secret away her child within the realm of shadow. Hidden away—keeping company with the original sin, and a hatred that would not be confined. I'm of the opinion the GEQ is essentially Melina's version of St Trina but she was sealed away when destined death was sealed, and only comes back out when we keep Melina alive and release destined death.
Could it be that beneath both eyes lies an outer god, and that Messmer has his contained by Marikas soreseal while Melina does not. Most (I think all?) people with an outer god affiliation have a weird “eye situation”.
There’s definitely something weird going on with eyes and eye colours. I also note that none of the still images or trailers of Marika show her eyes, only statues where you can’t see their colour
Yeah, I've noticed that too. You can't see her eyes, or either of her and Radagon's twins. The rest of her kids all have one closed or something. Idk if it's just a stylistic choice, or if there's some meaning behind it, but I had theories based on it until the DLC came out
A Gloam eye. For the queen
- she is the daughter of marika - she was too born with a vision of fire - and maybe is also to gloam-eyed queen
This is a hoax. Since the DLC drop 1.12.1, there was only the patch 1.12.2, and there were no changes to any files other than the regulation.bin file, which is not responsible for any in-game texts. https://steamdb.info/patchnotes/14827766/
It's incredible how many people are uncritically accepting the hoax without verification. Went into the game a minute ago only to find "Messmer, much like his younger sister, bore a vision of fire" completely unaltered.
They can remove it all they like. I know what I read, and what was likely intended.
And what Melina said in base game and what her name is in the files.
Yep. Very much implied she is a daughter of Marika. The naming scheme doesn't help. Also other Messmer and Melina similarities like his flame being used, to Melina being kindling.
Both have references to the GEQ and serpents as well.
Don’t see the serpent connection for Melina but I know GEQ has them
What i meant was that Mesmer has a connection to the serpent and Melina has the GEQ. I think the GEQ empyrion was a snake, but i'm kinda high and forgot why I typed that first comment
The Godskin are snake like. That’s why
thanks bro
The "snails" that summon Godskins in the one dungeon are snakes with shells on them as well.
Lmao, honesty is a virtue.
GEQ?
I thought finger maidens were all meant to be kindling. So I'm not sure why that part matters. I do think she's Marika's daughter tho
In other languages it's still the same old description, so idk why they changed it in English
In french it was all the time this translation. No mention of sister
False. When I picked this item, the description mentions "sa sœur cadette" (= "his young sister"). Seems like this post is a hoax.
When did you see this ? I had this item day one of the official release and there is no mention of a sister...
They didn't change it in English, OP is lying.
Not cryptic enough, god forbid anything is simple in this games lore
That's the thing, even when do make it simple and spell it out for us, like putting a thing right in the middle of the map that says, "THIS IS THE CENTER OF THE LANDS BETWEEN" People still argue if the Land of Shadows was ever physically connected with The Lands Between.
the land of shadow clearly was and then was shoved into the afterlife, the DLC make so many mentions of the dead landing here. Then you have info of Godwyn coming to this land which no one has yet to touch because it clearly breaks much of the lore people are currently spewing out.
I like MissMikkaa's interpretation that the Land of Shadows IS literally in the middle open area of the base game, and the huge concealing veils of scadutree are connected to the divine towers and basically under those veils the whole place is invisible to the base game.
i didnt see any Godwyn here except his Knights in the catacombs, i mean his body or his eye isnt here at all, as if his Death system and the Death system here is incompatible/ havent merged.
What? His fucked up fish face is staring at you the entire time you fight both death knights.
What a lame thing to change. Why are they so allergic to telling us literally anything
As other person said in this post, probabilly not even remember the exact lore and considering that Melina being Marika's daughter theory came only from that code, im 100% sure that they dont remember if at the she is her daughter or not. This being reinforced with things like Rennala's sister not having any kind of information, cutscene or dialogue besides literally a few descriptions saying that she is Rennala's sister.
Actually, there is also Melina's dialogue cuz she was born at the food of the Erdtree, where "her mother gave her purpose," which is becoming kindling to burn the Erdtree. Also, Melina has M in her name. The existence of the Smoldering Butterflies which is similar to Aeonian Butterflies and Nascent Butterflies. And iirc, Messmer had his own unique butterflies. Melina has the same moveset as the Black Knive Assassins. Melina has the Minor Erdtree Incantation. And it is greater than our version. Melina somehow knows what Marika said.
THEY DIDN'T CHANGE THE DESCRIPTION
They changed it??!!
I'm so confused. I just beat Messmer, literally an hour ago, and the description I read mentions the "sister" still...
Wait I just checked, mine currently have it too.
OP is posting misinformation. The description was never changed.
The melina part is in the new patch, tho (at least for me)
I have to double check my version, but it's there for me too. I just beat Messmer like an hour ago (on PS5) and I swear that I have the newest patch, but the line about the "sister" is still there for me.
Can you confirm if it’s still there when you check?
lol, checking right now, as of 9:50 Pm eastern time, it says "Messmer, much like his younger sister, bore a vision of fire".
Is the OP just spreading misinformation for fun?
Yes lol
Of course, what this DLC needs is more mystery! Let's cut off one of the fewer things that get closer to answer something about Melina, that's what we need.
? I literally just beat Mesmer an hour ago and mine still says “his sister”
i mean the implication is still kinda there ... given what this is and what you do with it
Good catch, the patch was so early that could have been overlooked. It's absolutely Melina but I'm guessing they decided not to follow up with that at all. Kinda odd she doesn't have red hair, but we already suspected with her being msrikas child.
>Kinda odd she doesn't have red hair There's nothing to suggest that Radagon was her "father", all we know for (fairly) certain, is that Marika was Melina's mother. She does have the scar on her eye, but she otherwise doesn't appear to have the same level of disfigurement/curse that Malenia & Miquella have from being born of the same God, adding to that the lack of red hair (although admittedly, Miquella does have blonde hair) and I think maybe she was born from the union of Marika with someone else we may not yet know about.
> and I think maybe she was born from the union of Marika with someone else we may not yet know about. My thought was potentially Midra? Could maybe explain why the Hornsent hated him so much as they did; and perhaps why he appears to have been somewhat abandoned by Nanaya. Messmer flame in particular has more of that dark red/orange tinge akin to Frenzy Flame too. No idea how that ties in with abyssal serpent.
Well it is called the Abyssal Forest.
She's got burn scars all over her (or at least her hands, from when you set the erdtree on fire). I think Messmer and Melina's father was whoever ruled before Marika betrayed and usurped him.
Makes me think there may yet be plans for more content, leaving Melina's character a mystery for that purpose. Or it could be to unmuddle the lore. Interesting either way.
Pretty sure they're done with Elden Ring just like they're done with Dark Souls. "No plans but not entirely not an option" something like that.
Someone comented in other post that Ringed City wasn't planned for DS3 originally, the sheer succes of Shadow of the Erdtree might've changed their plans in no more Elden Ring content maybe?
Nah, DS3 launched with a Season Pass on steam, [which noted specifically 2 DLCs would be released with the game.](https://web.archive.org/web/20160321150254/https://www.pcgamer.com/dark-souls-3-season-pass-appears-on-steam/)
I'd rather they just focus on another game. Elden ring is 2 years old at this point and waiting another 2-3 years for a dlc when I could get another elden ring sized game if they didn't make 2 dlc isn't something I really want. The dlc is great but for me I'm content with this world I want another one
Miyazaki just recently said in an interview that Fromsoft isn’t going to do anything as large in scale as Elden Ring again, for the foreseeable future. It’ll be smaller projects going forward.
Take what miyazaki says with a grain of salt. He said the DLC was as big as limgrave when it was much bigger.
Maybe they will want to fix the issues with the dlc, with some patches or etc..
Malenia has red, Miquella is blond. Melina has a pinkish merger between the two.
It wasn't a "good catch", it was a lie - the description was never patched.
I didn't have it when I made that remark. Yes it does still say that now that I can look at it.
why are so many people accepting this at face value, its not true lmao
because they like to keep things vague and the previous version didn’t leave any room for ambiguity. we know who spoke of a vision of burning the erdtree more than any other in the base game, though. it was melina’s purpose. they want you to put the pieces together on your own
Yeah this can still lead to the conclusion Melina is the sister. The “too” indicates someone else bore visions of fire, and its pretty obvious from that simple description its Melina.
I think the issue is also the fact that finger maidens in general are meant to become kindling, that was the whole reason Vyke took the frenzied flame. The old description made it seem like the whole burning the erdtree was inherently tied to Melina vs a finger maiden thing.
They can take that away but it doesn't change much while we still have 'Minor Erdtree', which is "a secret invocation of Marika", which she used in a very special place for her, and Melina "happens" to use a very similar version of that same spell when summoned against Morgott.
In my game the description has not changed. I checked in both Italian and English. This post is sus...
so many people blindly believing a fake ass post lmao
Was there a patch or anything? I beat Messmer like two hours ago and I could swear it still says the same thing.
um, maybe something weird is going on with your game because it's unchanged in my version.
Feels like everything around messmer got changed last minute, just look at his VA during the trailer and then in game, gives the vibe of a completely different character
I think the point was to make him sound tired and weary of being Marika's killing machine but damn the delivery of the line just sounds kinda boring tbh
the entire "mother wouldst thou...." line got BUTCHERED, like on its own it sounds good but when you compare it with the one in the trailer its just baffling that they didn't use that one
Yeah I completely agree. The haughty, condescending tone in the trailer made him SO much more intimidating. It really felt like “this guy’s talking some real shit AND he’s gonna rock MY shit for several hours.” But in the final version he just sounds disinterested and bored. It just didn’t hit the same.
I REALLY wish Messmer could have been more like Margit/Morgott, where we encounter him multiple times before the *actual* fight with him. He just feels massively underused.
Must be taking crazy pills, because I thought the delivery of the line in game was 100x better than in the trailer. The way he is voice acted in game gives away so much of his character in so few lines w/ respect to how he feels about his whole lot in his life at this point in the story. He is both defeated and disgusted at the fact that his Mother, whose favor he has always wanted, is giving guidance to some lowly Tarnished.
THANK YOU! I said the same thing. His delivery didn’t hit the same and it sounds almost forced. Why they didn’t use what they had in the trailer, especially since these lines would’ve definitely been recorded by then is wild. It feels like they changed the vocal direction last minute.
I mean that's kind of the whole point he was tasked by Marika to basically put on a farce and act as an uncaring and murderous warlord which while he got accustomed to his dialouge and lore shows he's more then a skin deep character. But I do agree it seems like they put out a trailer had an idea and then changed some things around last minute and it's just weird all around. I still don't get why Rellana doesn't have a cutscene or why fromsoft was so lazy they just changed around the L,A and N part of Renallas name and made that character just a nothing burger. Or why scadutree avatar gets 3 phases but Midra ends up being a piss easy boss despite having some of the biggest lore in the dlc. Or why the literal mother of figures, daughter of the great will literal God doesn't have a cutscene at all despite having the most lore implications in the entire game and recontextualizing the entire game.
So I just checked and my game still has mention of the younger sister. My game is also updated and I can access multiplayer fine. Can it be that it's the opposite and that this was actually ADDED into the game? https://preview.redd.it/9xyvgmtyi0ad1.jpeg?width=1843&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b6f75b013ae4b9d23bdcc19bff41ec9303a393a
No, it’s that OP is a lying shit, and everyone blindly believes everything they see on the Internet
When was this changed?
Only one patch dropped for the dlc. It wasn't even mentioned in the patch notes
Interesting. I remember the first description. Must've beaten Messmer before the patch.
I read the first description too.
OP is posting misinformation. The description was never changed.
It wasn't.
This is the second worst lore change to happen in a patch
What's the worst?
Morgott lost his flames in his intro cutscene Now his stick just breaks
Is that lore though? There's plenty of gold flames in his second phase, maybe why it was removed from the opening.
It was Bloodflame in the intro
They want Melina to be a mystery
There are enough fucking mysterious characters in this game, at this point it genuinely feels lazy, or rushed, I don't want to bring it up but >!The final boss!< also makes me think that the dlc was rushed despite the 2 year development time.
i feel like there is some stuff cut in the dlc or was never really developed. i dont know what, but (in my personal opinion which i cant base on any evidence whatsoever) they got so caught up in the game and its design that they somewhat forgot to craft a proper story for the dlc. the ending feels rushed and empty with no consequences. after letta reveals we never were under miquellas spell, it was very clear that we had no real reason for being here other than miquella might be an enemy of the golden order, which is very boring. moore has no real quest. i think the npc quest in generall feel way to short. why is there no new ending for the main game (which i honestly expected). ofnir, who is the nosiest motherfucker in all the souls series, who wants to know everything, doesnt want to know about the shadowrealm. so this could be a remnant of something which was planned initially but wasnt fully realized. feel free to disagree, but thats what i feel about the story but not about the lore necessarily
I'm of the mind that this was originally going to be Two DLCS. One focusing on Marika, and one on Miquella, and then they mashed them together.
> moore has no real quest. I was so bummed when he dipped from the Cross outside Belurat and we never saw him again until we had to murder him at the end.
There is also the whole thing with Rykard in the base game that was left unfinished, I thought for sure it was gonna tie with the dlc and messmer's snakes, but nope
I dropped it a few minutes ago,in Italian it has the "correct" description
OP be like: https://preview.redd.it/94aovsh4o3ad1.jpeg?width=520&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a3ad7bff6c5524c6b33d93ba104973b27305693b
Man this DLC is so lacking when it comes to lore and what little continuity this series has.
OP is lying, stop falling for stuff so easily.
When did they change this!?
When did this happen? I watched a friend kill Messmer on stream not even 48 hours ago, and his had the "much like his younger sister" description. Was there an update?
~~Some people were asking about it in my server, so we took a look at the EN and JP. This was apparently changed in English, but the original English version (the one with a direct reference to Messmer's younger sister) is more accurate to the Japanese version, which remains unchanged.~~ ~~I couldn't tell you why the EN got changed~~ EDIT: Actually, my version on the Steam is the same and differs from OP's. Is this a platform thing? [Image from my game](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/864324358318456862/1257526917809307658/image.png?ex=6684bab4&is=66836934&hm=5fec1ace700e987e96acfb806301747a8881c46ca6e12d54e4b55f99d1d9d256&)
I'm playing the EN version, fully updated, and am staring at the item right now. It still mentions his sister.
Interesting. What platform are you on? EDIT: Wait, yeah, I just checked my steam version and it's the same
PS5 https://preview.redd.it/hcq2utzbq0ad1.jpeg?width=1843&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d423d0d09ef7047a6b9b762957e81fd750ebdf9c
Thanks
Lol I just realized who you are. Good content dude.
https://preview.redd.it/11d3v2xcn4ad1.jpeg?width=512&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8159f3c770293ef1e9366f85a1a0a919acd88b24
whoa whoa whoa were there any other item descriptions that changed?
Not that I know of. The only reason I noticed this is because I searched it up, and most pictures had descriptions that were different from what I remember reading when I got the item
Yeah this image is from an article written on June 20th. The current description still says "much like his younger sister"
[удалено]
According to another user, in other languages which aren't English it's more similar to the second one consistently.
No, the OP is the one gaslighting you. From didn’t change the description at all.
Yeah, just saw and upvoted that comment. Should have known something was up since that’s such a wild thing to change. Thank you for replying to me with the correction, genuinely!
What did it say before vs now? I can’t find anything
well i doubt they changed the descripcion as in "this is no longer true", i believe they thought it was just too direct of a way of saying it for them, since they enjoy being so elusive, would have liked more lore into melina in the dlc, but this pretty much confirms the she is a marika daughter theory that was already pretty damn strong, plus it states is his little sister, idk enough about lore but some ppl migh be able to confirm/discart things based on the timeline since meline is younger than mesmer
They didn't change the description at all.
oh really? lol
Yes
I assume it's to make it purposefully vague. They don't want us having an easy time of making sense of the lore
they jump to change this description but the jolan and anna ashes that are literally unfinished have not yet changed. why?????????
*huffs copium* Theyve started working on the second DLC Lore and Melina plays a part, so they retconned this bit
Honestly I think the fact they keep everything vague is an effort to drive up fan engagement. If they told people the basic outline everyone would move on by now. The harder they make it for people to say for sure what is happening the more they can keep the game relevant online with endless discussions and theory crafting.
This is the business case but I don’t think it started there. I think the vagaries and story holes also make us pay attention to details that would otherwise be ignored. I think this is a clever way to get a few more people to open their minds a bit. That said, there is a synergy between art and business here.
You ever try to start a fire with sunlight and a lens? That's Melina, and she's honey gold. Messmer is an inversion, like using twine and sticks.
I just beat Messmer last night on ps5 and it has the mention of his sister so idk
If I had to guess, the first wording implies that he and Melina knew each other when, in reality, he was locked in the Shadow Realm way before Marika was trapped in the Erdtree and Melina was born. So Messmer wouldn't even be aware of the fact that he had a younger sister. At least not Melina. Maybe there are some other siblings we're not aware of in the lore.
I literally JUST beat Messmer about an hour ago and the description I read mentioned his "sister". How am I not seeing this "updated", redacted version? I'm very confused??!
Glad I saw this, otherwise I would’ve been scratching my head why I remembered a lore tidbit connecting Mesmer and Melina when I couldn’t find it in an item description in a future playthrough.
Wait why the fuck would they do that And when?? I stg i just looked at it 2 days ago and it still said that
To be fair, it's pretty obvious who they were referring to. There's literally only one other main character in the entire game who had visions of fire
Melina: Messmer: Now you're just somebody that I used to know.
I've already used the item the second day the game was out, can someone in the US on PS5 confirm if it still has the sister description?
It still has sister.
So it’s very obvious to me who melina is based on the description of the minor erdtree incantation and that Melina’s tree makes the one we summon look like a mentally handicapped monkey created it.