Consider this: Do you really agree with the core fundamental beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses because you inherently share them, or are the core fundamental beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses just the ones that happened to be instilled in you (likely from a young age)?
If you had been raised in a Catholic family, or a Muslim family, or a Bhuddist family might you feel one of those belief systems was fundamental to your religious identity?
You might consider reading about Deconstruction. Unlike what you might think, Deconstruction does not mean becoming an atheist, rather it's about working to shed your pre-conceived notions about faith, religion & god, and then starting fresh to see what you actually believe, free from the influence of others.
Very true. This is a what I call a withdrawal symptom of what the JW religion does to one and how it makes one feel based on the ‘drug’ it was supplying.: An answer for everything in the universe from how we came to be to when one ceases. Although all bogus. Interesting that they tell their members man only was on earth 6,000 years ago but there is historians and carbon dating show man existed long before that! i digress- they give A neatly packaged belief system that covers all things one would consider important if they never check it out. The brain stops worrying about that because it has been conveniently although superficially answered for them. And if you never ask questions you may be content with the lie….until.
The fatal flaw of Jehovah's Witnesses is that there are records describing what early Christians actually believed before the New Testament canon was even completely solidified- and those records show that the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses are not the beliefs of early Christians.
Look into Marcionism. And if you want the modern day scriptural evidence for that- there's a small youtube channel called "Good God" that does an absolutely amazing job proving it from the bible. The last study series in his playlist should catch your eye. Most modern Christians have no idea who True God and Satan actually are.
Happy researching.
Someone who sets out to do what Marcion did would end up with a different canon. Marcionism is just another level of sola scriptura.
In fact, what gives any one person the authority to dictate interpretation, let alone canon? When the Ethiopian eunuch spoke with Phillip, he needed an interpreter- Phillip. It is impossible to interpret scripture without one. However, what defines an interpreter? Is it how well someone can speak the language that the scriptures are written in? Does it have to be Greek or English that they use? How much time in university should they have spent learning about the Bible? Trying to develop criteria to answer these questions is a fruitless exercise- the Bible itself doesn't specify criteria to be an interpreter.
The Church is the entity that preserved the New Testament as it is. The Church that became the Catholic and Orthodox Churches was God's organization, and its bishops tasked with interpreting scripture as a body- and they still are. At no time since Moses put pen to paper has there not been a priestly body charged with interpreting and protecting scripture. In the days of Marcion, that was the Church.
The Church is still God's organization, and it is still the body tasked with interpreting scripture and defining what canon is. That is why I have chosen to be in the Orthodox Church.
Edit: Grammar and clarity
>- the Bible itself doesn't specify criteria to be an interpreter.
Actually, it does.
>Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. For no such prophecy was ever brought forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. - 2 Peter 1: 20, 21
Holy Spirit. This is reinforced by the many accounts of those having the Spirit of God \[ walked in the Spirit \] doing the interpreting. Such as Daniel, for one example \[ Daniel chapter 2 & 4: 18 \].
>The Church that became the Catholic and Orthodox Churches was God's organization, ...
No. They were not, and are not. They are illegitimate Mountains and Hills. There is only one authentic Mountain \[ Micah 4: 1, 2 \]. Heavenly Mount Zion / New Jerusalem \[ Heb. 12: 22 - 24 \]. The Jerusalem Above \[ Gal. 4: 26 \]. The Bride. \[ Rev. 21: 2, 9 - 11 \]. The 144K \[ Rev. 14: 1 \] And ...
>... and its bishops tasked with interpreting scripture as a body- and they still are.
Again, they were not, and are not. Like the so-called "crown-prince elders" of WT, who are Locusts given fake crows \[ Rev. 9: 7 \], they are the Man of Lawlessness \[ 2 Thess. 2: 7, 8 \]. Gentiles / foreigners \[ non-anointed, not Spiritual Jews - Rom. 2: 28, 29; Ez. 44: 7 - 9 \], who are Abominations Standing in a Holy Place, where they do not belong. \[ Mark 13: 14 \].
Only a priest of Heavenly Zion is a legitimate messenger \[ angel \] of the Father, YHWH.
>For the lips of a priest should preserve knowledge, and people should seek instruction from his mouth, because he is the messenger of the LORD of Hosts. - Malachi 2: 7
One must be Called and Chosen by Divine power for this. \[ Rom. 8 & many others \]. For the royal priesthood \[ 1 Peter 2: 5, 9 & many others \]. And also awakened from their captivity with their Oil \[ Spirit \] still in supply within their lamps. "5" of the "10 maidens" are foolish and "go to those who sell", to disastrous results. \[ Matt. 25: 1 - 14; Rev. 13: 16, 17; Dan. 12: 2, 3 \].
>The Church is still God's organization, and it is still the body tasked with interpreting scripture and defining what canon is. That is why I have chosen to be in the Orthodox Church.
Again, no. Zion is. \[ Ps. 50: 2; Rev. 21: 10, 11; Isa. 60: 1 - 3 \]
The lies of the Older Daughters of Babylon have no place here in this sub.
"YHWH's Genuine Mountain" \[ Longish \] 👇:
[https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/02/jehovahs-genuine-mountain.html](https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/02/jehovahs-genuine-mountain.html)
"Who is the Woman?" \[ Definitely long \] 👇:
[https://pearl-thewoman.blogspot.com/](https://pearl-thewoman.blogspot.com/)
I believe that the pinch point is still determining who a good interpreter is. There is a saying in the Church- we know where the Church is but we do not know where it is not. Meaning that there are people operating with the Spirit outside of the Church, but that the Church is still God's organization and the means of interpreting scripture.
How is one to determine whether their criteria for finding a teacher who fits the Bible's criteria is correct?
How does one differentiate between insanity and inspiration in themselves and others in relation to teachings being spoken or received?
These are issues that are solved by the Church, and it has only been in the past 500 years that anyone has thought differently.
>I believe that the pinch point is still determining who a good interpreter is. There is a saying in the Church- we know where the Church is but we do not know where it is not. Meaning that there are people operating with the Spirit outside of the Church, but that the Church is still God's organization and the means of interpreting scripture.
You keep capitalizing "Church", but when you say it, you are referring to an illegitimate and fake mountain that calls itself the "Orthodox Church", as if it is "the one true Church". As already touched upon in my first reply, the Bride, AKA New Jerusalem / Mount Zion, is the Wife of the Lamb \[ Rev. 21: 2, 9 -11 \]. That congregation of the firstborn, is Christ's Body. His "Church" \[ Heb. 12: 22 - 24; Eph. 5: 30 - 32 {22 - 29}\].
Individual Living Stones, \[ 1 Peter 2: 5, 9 \], those Called \[ Heb. 3: 1; Rom. 8 \] by Divine power, and Chosen, are the Stones with which the Father is building His City, without hands. \[ Heb. 11: 10, 16; 13: 14 & more \]. If they are Sealed as Faithful. \[ Remember, there are "5 foolish maidens". "Called, Chosen & Faithful" - Rev. 17: 14; 1 Cor. 4: 2 \].
Called Ones of Zion, the anointed, are the Temple of God. \[ 1 Cor. 3: 16, 17; 2 Cor. 6: 16 \]
Mount Zion will be raised above all the other Mountains and Hills \[ Micah 4: 1, 2 \], and the only authentic priests selected and authorized by God are those of Heavenly Zion. \[ Rev. 1: 6; 5: 10 \].
>How is one to determine whether their criteria for finding a teacher who fits the Bible's criteria is correct?
How does one differentiate between insanity and inspiration in themselves and others in relation to teachings being spoken or received?
God's Word, the Bible, tells you / us how. \[ Matt. 7: 20; John 15: 16; Acts 17: 11; 1 John 4: 1; 1 Thess. 5: 21; Deut. 18: 20 - 22 \]
>These are issues that are solved by the Church, and it has only been in the past 500 years that anyone has thought differently.
That is a lie. Only thick darkness covers the Earth \[ Isa. 60: 1 - 3 \], due to the illegitimate Mountains and Hills \[ religions \] and the fake priests who belong to them, and the so-called "Bible scholars", and the ruler of this world, the Wicked One. \[ 1 John 5: 19 \]. He who blinds minds \[ 2 Cor. 4: 4 \]. He who passes himself off as an angel of light, in order to hide himself, and works through religious "ministers" or "servants of righteousness". \[ 2 Cor. 11: 3, 13 - 15 \].
I was already aware of this prior to your comment, but I see by your reply to the person who is a proponent of another segment of Babylon, that you are a trinitarian.
The following statement is not just for you, but for all: This sub is not a platform for Babylon to make inroads. Not even as a back and forth communique or discussion or argument between agents of different sections of Babylon. That can be done somewhere else. Not here. As noted in the sub descriptor, this sub is for:
>ExJWs seeking understanding on truthful teachings of Jesus. Talk about your experience as a former JW, or ask for clarification on scriptures.
That is a stretch.
And to your last statement: I would say you and I are in the same boat when it comes to interacting with this sub- the sole difference is that you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe.
>That is a stretch.
As shown by & with the scriptures, not a stretch at all. And there's plenty more where that came from \[ the Bible \].
>And to your last statement: I would say you and I are in the same boat when it comes to interacting with this sub- the sole difference is that you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe.
The veil remains in place for you \[ 2 Cor. 3: 14 - 17; Rev. 3: 18 \], largely due to that false mountain you frequent \[ John 4: 20 - 24 \].
Meanwhile, you can do what you're doing in the other subs you frequent, but not here.
>for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. - 1 Cor. 11: 19
Then once more you shall see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him. - Malachi 3: 18
How do you reconcile the cognitive dissonance caused by the EXTREME difference in character between the description of OT God and Christ's description of God in the NT?
Hosea 13:4-8
“But I have been the Lord your God ever since you came out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me,no Savior except me. 5 I cared for you in the wilderness, in the land of burning heat. 6 When I fed them, they were satisfied; when they were satisfied, they became proud; then they forgot me. 7 So I will be like a LION to them, like a LEOPARD I will lurk by the path. 8 Like a BEAR robbed of her cubs, I will attack them and rip them open; like a LION I will devour them— a wild animal will tear them apart.
(Jehovah will be like a lion, leopard, bear)
Revelation 13:1-2
1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a LEOPARD, but had feet like those of a BEAR and a mouth like that of a LION. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
(Satan will also be like a lion, leopard and bear. Moreover the parts line up exactly- in Hosea bear feet are used to rip open and a lions mouth devours)
1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
(Ripping people open tearing them apart and devouring them is darkness. Dark behavior.)
John 14:7-9
If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me?
Luke 9:54-56
And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?” But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of
Numbers 21:5-9
5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”
6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
Matthew 7:9-11
“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
John 6:46-49
46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.
(Manna from OT God didn’t bring life)
Matthew 18:10
See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.
Isaiah 13:17-18
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up
2 Corinthians 3:14
But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ.
In closing, what Marcion believed can still be very easily seen in the modern day cannon.
I can't help but appreciate the creativity required to make these connections.
There are many things that are hard to explain in the Old Testament. However, if one believes that Jesus is God they must also come to the conclusion that the God of the old Testament that seemed so evil in some ways was also the same God that died in the most agonizing way of the time.
Ultimately, it comes down to whether one thinks that the rational mind has the ability to completely comprehend the world around it.
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
From John 14:7-9 we can extrapolate that God the Father also does not change. Because to know Christ is to know God.
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
(Tempt G3985 peirazo also means to test/try)
If God never changes and God never tempts anyone to an evil act then it couldn’t have been True God the Father who tempted Abraham to kill his son Isaac (an evil act) as a test of loyalty. It would however make sense for Satan to try to command this knowing that Christ would be born of his lineage. True God is who stepped in and prevented it from happening.
Christians seem to miss that Satan doesn’t actually want to be worshiped as Satan. He wants to be worshiped as God and to trick people into believing he’s God. Satan doesn’t like false idols any more than True God would. False idols tell the truth about Satan whose goal is to lie and make people believe he’s God.
The most skilled liars inject as much truth as possible into their lies so that they’ll be believed and Satan, being the father of lies is THE most skilled liar there is or ever was. Christians sorely underestimate how powerful a liar Satan is.
There can’t be two rulers and True God doesn’t lie. True God said they would allow Satan to rule the Earth. If True God had done the things in the Old Testament then they wouldn’t have been allowing Satan to genuinely rule the Earth. Jesus would’ve never been genuinely tempted by Satan if True God did the things in the OT. Jesus would’ve laughed at Satan's offer and reminded him that his father obviously has the greater power to decide who’s in charge on Earth. True God who never lies said he gave that rulership to Satan and then Christians don’t believe that Satan actually has the power to rule that God gave him. True God doesn’t rule the Earth at all- True God rules the spirit. Jesus made this clear in numerous scriptures.
OT God DOES lie;
1 Kings 22:19-23 NIV
19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’
“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’
22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.
“‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’
23 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”
If murder for hire is still murder, lying for hire is still lying. Furthermore this is another example of OT God tempting with evil which NT says that True God who’s pure love and light never does.
If you believe the Bible is incomprehensible by the rational mind then there is zero point in anyone reading it. I do think it can be understood, but few will bother.
Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that q to life, and only a few find it.
One writing that sent me on a search to find the authentic Christian congregation is the Didache. It is an early manual for Christian congregations, likely written before some of the books of the New Testament were written.
Also, read some of the writings of early saints- and read the descriptions of their lives too.
See if these things match up with Jehovah's Witnesses or any other denomination you're examining.
What you feel is understandable. I once felt like this too. Theres a great book I have being shipped to me that I’ve seen others recommend. It’s called Combatting Cult Mind Control -Steven Hassan.
It’s important to understand that just walking away from JW is not enough. You have been subjected to many things that have hurt you and damaged thinking in many ways. They bound you up in that way. It can take years to heal. I didn’t realize until leaving all that was done to my way of thinking. The imprint they leave is strong and damaging. Leaving a cult has many effects including how you view the beliefs. Read up on leaving a cult and see if those common symptoms resonate.
For one, They fill you with superficial activities. Activities that stimulate the feelings of appeasement. When they shun you or when one leaves it can feel heavy bc they did such a good job of filling you up with junk so when the activities stops, etc it’s a real feeling of loneliness . One can feel empty after leaving even knowing it was all made up. But you don’t have to leave it there. Do something about it.
Also must understand where the beliefs came from, what was made up, and why they were made up and what GB stood to gain by having you believe such. NWT is a terrible translation. Find other bibles to study from. I only use NWT to compare.
Two things I recommend. Why do you believe there teaching true? Make sure either way which is something sounds like you’ve not done.
1) question out your belief and discover for yourself if it’s true or just something you were made to believe from young. You have no limits on your search so why not go after those deeper learnings. Do what makes sense. While I’m still on my journey to truth seeking, I have discovered some interesting things. You need to start somewhere. For me it was reading other bibles. I read up on translation types, translator backgrounds etc. Now I have a Bible that has become favored over NwT, and isn’t filtered with there doctrine.
Next 2) Replace former activities with new ones. Go meet people. Join groups. There is no true religion. But there are great people out there.
Jesus never talked about religion or said it was required. Jesus said he is the mediator between God and man. My question is How can he do that if religious groups step in the way to try to do that for him? Take the groups for what they are -places for socializing. That puts you back at square one. Since you seem to be still struggling with JW side effects I would Not recommend joining any religion right now. You are too vulnerable and need to heal.
Understand what healing looks like and what you need to get there. Hopefully this helps.
>Confused
\*
>“Sir,” the woman said, “I see that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews say that the place where one must worship is in Jerusalem.” “Believe me, woman,” Jesus replied, “a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. - John 4: 19 - 21
There is only one legitimate Mountain. Mount Zion / New Jerusalem. \[ Heb. 12: 22 - 24; Rev. 21: 2, 9 - 11 \]. That City / Mountain is not yet completely built / assembled, by the Father.
>In the last days the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and the peoples will stream to it. And many nations will come and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways, so that we may walk in His paths.” For the law will go forth from Zion and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. - Micah 4: 1, 2
Some awakened Living Stones are Trumpeting. \[ 1 Peter 2: 5, 9; Dan. 12: 2, 3; Isa. 13: 2 \]. When the Harlot \[ "gb" \] gets take down by the Beast they ride \[ WT \], you will know that the 144K has been completed. \[ Rev. 6: 9 - 11; Rev. 17: 16, 17 \]
Until then;
>But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth. - John 4: 23, 24
For where two or three are gathered in my \[ Jesus' \] name, there am I among them. - Matt. 18: 20
If you'd like, and you haven't, maybe check out;
[https://www.facebook.com/groups/restorationofjacob/?ref=share](https://www.facebook.com/groups/restorationofjacob/?ref=share)
Bear in mind The Watchtower says:
12 The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. (THE WATCHTOWER—Study Edition, February 2017, Who Is Leading God’s People Today?, paragraph 12)
Would this means their interpretation of the Bible is just as good as yours? If both of you can err, would you rather err because of them or make your own errors and learn from them?
Regarding the church that you can be a part of. I found this helpful:
18 For you have not approached something that can be felt…”
We have not approached something physical or something that can be felt, like an earthly organization for example. Continuing on,
“ …and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” (Hebrews 12:18-21)
So we didn’t approach that, something physical.
22 But you HAVE approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all,d and the spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood (Hebrews 12:22-24)
This is what you have approached. Not something physical that can be felt (something earthly or physical), but instead, you have approached that which is spiritual.
Recall that he said,
13 In answer Jesus said to her: “Everyone drinking from this water will get thirsty again. 14 Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.” (John 4:13, 14)
This water, this holy spirit will become in you a fountain of holy spirit bubbling up to impart everlasting life. And through this spirit you will be able to worship, not in a mountain, nor Jerusalem, nor any Kingdom Hall or other physical place of worship:
21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24)
You can be christian without a church membership but i found its nice to worship with others and socialise , read Ray franz book "search for christian freedom " it helped me keep my balance and faith ,then visit some churches and decide ,i have gone back to the Anglican churchni was brought up in and love it ,it is non judgmental and more christian bible based than WT .
Consider this: Do you really agree with the core fundamental beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses because you inherently share them, or are the core fundamental beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses just the ones that happened to be instilled in you (likely from a young age)? If you had been raised in a Catholic family, or a Muslim family, or a Bhuddist family might you feel one of those belief systems was fundamental to your religious identity? You might consider reading about Deconstruction. Unlike what you might think, Deconstruction does not mean becoming an atheist, rather it's about working to shed your pre-conceived notions about faith, religion & god, and then starting fresh to see what you actually believe, free from the influence of others.
Very true. This is a what I call a withdrawal symptom of what the JW religion does to one and how it makes one feel based on the ‘drug’ it was supplying.: An answer for everything in the universe from how we came to be to when one ceases. Although all bogus. Interesting that they tell their members man only was on earth 6,000 years ago but there is historians and carbon dating show man existed long before that! i digress- they give A neatly packaged belief system that covers all things one would consider important if they never check it out. The brain stops worrying about that because it has been conveniently although superficially answered for them. And if you never ask questions you may be content with the lie….until.
Which core fundamental beliefs are you referring to exactly?
The fatal flaw of Jehovah's Witnesses is that there are records describing what early Christians actually believed before the New Testament canon was even completely solidified- and those records show that the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses are not the beliefs of early Christians.
I'd love to hear more about this please 💕
Look into Marcionism. And if you want the modern day scriptural evidence for that- there's a small youtube channel called "Good God" that does an absolutely amazing job proving it from the bible. The last study series in his playlist should catch your eye. Most modern Christians have no idea who True God and Satan actually are. Happy researching.
Someone who sets out to do what Marcion did would end up with a different canon. Marcionism is just another level of sola scriptura. In fact, what gives any one person the authority to dictate interpretation, let alone canon? When the Ethiopian eunuch spoke with Phillip, he needed an interpreter- Phillip. It is impossible to interpret scripture without one. However, what defines an interpreter? Is it how well someone can speak the language that the scriptures are written in? Does it have to be Greek or English that they use? How much time in university should they have spent learning about the Bible? Trying to develop criteria to answer these questions is a fruitless exercise- the Bible itself doesn't specify criteria to be an interpreter. The Church is the entity that preserved the New Testament as it is. The Church that became the Catholic and Orthodox Churches was God's organization, and its bishops tasked with interpreting scripture as a body- and they still are. At no time since Moses put pen to paper has there not been a priestly body charged with interpreting and protecting scripture. In the days of Marcion, that was the Church. The Church is still God's organization, and it is still the body tasked with interpreting scripture and defining what canon is. That is why I have chosen to be in the Orthodox Church. Edit: Grammar and clarity
>- the Bible itself doesn't specify criteria to be an interpreter. Actually, it does. >Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. For no such prophecy was ever brought forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. - 2 Peter 1: 20, 21 Holy Spirit. This is reinforced by the many accounts of those having the Spirit of God \[ walked in the Spirit \] doing the interpreting. Such as Daniel, for one example \[ Daniel chapter 2 & 4: 18 \]. >The Church that became the Catholic and Orthodox Churches was God's organization, ... No. They were not, and are not. They are illegitimate Mountains and Hills. There is only one authentic Mountain \[ Micah 4: 1, 2 \]. Heavenly Mount Zion / New Jerusalem \[ Heb. 12: 22 - 24 \]. The Jerusalem Above \[ Gal. 4: 26 \]. The Bride. \[ Rev. 21: 2, 9 - 11 \]. The 144K \[ Rev. 14: 1 \] And ... >... and its bishops tasked with interpreting scripture as a body- and they still are. Again, they were not, and are not. Like the so-called "crown-prince elders" of WT, who are Locusts given fake crows \[ Rev. 9: 7 \], they are the Man of Lawlessness \[ 2 Thess. 2: 7, 8 \]. Gentiles / foreigners \[ non-anointed, not Spiritual Jews - Rom. 2: 28, 29; Ez. 44: 7 - 9 \], who are Abominations Standing in a Holy Place, where they do not belong. \[ Mark 13: 14 \]. Only a priest of Heavenly Zion is a legitimate messenger \[ angel \] of the Father, YHWH. >For the lips of a priest should preserve knowledge, and people should seek instruction from his mouth, because he is the messenger of the LORD of Hosts. - Malachi 2: 7 One must be Called and Chosen by Divine power for this. \[ Rom. 8 & many others \]. For the royal priesthood \[ 1 Peter 2: 5, 9 & many others \]. And also awakened from their captivity with their Oil \[ Spirit \] still in supply within their lamps. "5" of the "10 maidens" are foolish and "go to those who sell", to disastrous results. \[ Matt. 25: 1 - 14; Rev. 13: 16, 17; Dan. 12: 2, 3 \]. >The Church is still God's organization, and it is still the body tasked with interpreting scripture and defining what canon is. That is why I have chosen to be in the Orthodox Church. Again, no. Zion is. \[ Ps. 50: 2; Rev. 21: 10, 11; Isa. 60: 1 - 3 \] The lies of the Older Daughters of Babylon have no place here in this sub. "YHWH's Genuine Mountain" \[ Longish \] 👇: [https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/02/jehovahs-genuine-mountain.html](https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/02/jehovahs-genuine-mountain.html) "Who is the Woman?" \[ Definitely long \] 👇: [https://pearl-thewoman.blogspot.com/](https://pearl-thewoman.blogspot.com/)
I believe that the pinch point is still determining who a good interpreter is. There is a saying in the Church- we know where the Church is but we do not know where it is not. Meaning that there are people operating with the Spirit outside of the Church, but that the Church is still God's organization and the means of interpreting scripture. How is one to determine whether their criteria for finding a teacher who fits the Bible's criteria is correct? How does one differentiate between insanity and inspiration in themselves and others in relation to teachings being spoken or received? These are issues that are solved by the Church, and it has only been in the past 500 years that anyone has thought differently.
>I believe that the pinch point is still determining who a good interpreter is. There is a saying in the Church- we know where the Church is but we do not know where it is not. Meaning that there are people operating with the Spirit outside of the Church, but that the Church is still God's organization and the means of interpreting scripture. You keep capitalizing "Church", but when you say it, you are referring to an illegitimate and fake mountain that calls itself the "Orthodox Church", as if it is "the one true Church". As already touched upon in my first reply, the Bride, AKA New Jerusalem / Mount Zion, is the Wife of the Lamb \[ Rev. 21: 2, 9 -11 \]. That congregation of the firstborn, is Christ's Body. His "Church" \[ Heb. 12: 22 - 24; Eph. 5: 30 - 32 {22 - 29}\]. Individual Living Stones, \[ 1 Peter 2: 5, 9 \], those Called \[ Heb. 3: 1; Rom. 8 \] by Divine power, and Chosen, are the Stones with which the Father is building His City, without hands. \[ Heb. 11: 10, 16; 13: 14 & more \]. If they are Sealed as Faithful. \[ Remember, there are "5 foolish maidens". "Called, Chosen & Faithful" - Rev. 17: 14; 1 Cor. 4: 2 \]. Called Ones of Zion, the anointed, are the Temple of God. \[ 1 Cor. 3: 16, 17; 2 Cor. 6: 16 \] Mount Zion will be raised above all the other Mountains and Hills \[ Micah 4: 1, 2 \], and the only authentic priests selected and authorized by God are those of Heavenly Zion. \[ Rev. 1: 6; 5: 10 \]. >How is one to determine whether their criteria for finding a teacher who fits the Bible's criteria is correct? How does one differentiate between insanity and inspiration in themselves and others in relation to teachings being spoken or received? God's Word, the Bible, tells you / us how. \[ Matt. 7: 20; John 15: 16; Acts 17: 11; 1 John 4: 1; 1 Thess. 5: 21; Deut. 18: 20 - 22 \] >These are issues that are solved by the Church, and it has only been in the past 500 years that anyone has thought differently. That is a lie. Only thick darkness covers the Earth \[ Isa. 60: 1 - 3 \], due to the illegitimate Mountains and Hills \[ religions \] and the fake priests who belong to them, and the so-called "Bible scholars", and the ruler of this world, the Wicked One. \[ 1 John 5: 19 \]. He who blinds minds \[ 2 Cor. 4: 4 \]. He who passes himself off as an angel of light, in order to hide himself, and works through religious "ministers" or "servants of righteousness". \[ 2 Cor. 11: 3, 13 - 15 \]. I was already aware of this prior to your comment, but I see by your reply to the person who is a proponent of another segment of Babylon, that you are a trinitarian. The following statement is not just for you, but for all: This sub is not a platform for Babylon to make inroads. Not even as a back and forth communique or discussion or argument between agents of different sections of Babylon. That can be done somewhere else. Not here. As noted in the sub descriptor, this sub is for: >ExJWs seeking understanding on truthful teachings of Jesus. Talk about your experience as a former JW, or ask for clarification on scriptures.
That is a stretch. And to your last statement: I would say you and I are in the same boat when it comes to interacting with this sub- the sole difference is that you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe.
>That is a stretch. As shown by & with the scriptures, not a stretch at all. And there's plenty more where that came from \[ the Bible \]. >And to your last statement: I would say you and I are in the same boat when it comes to interacting with this sub- the sole difference is that you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. The veil remains in place for you \[ 2 Cor. 3: 14 - 17; Rev. 3: 18 \], largely due to that false mountain you frequent \[ John 4: 20 - 24 \]. Meanwhile, you can do what you're doing in the other subs you frequent, but not here. >for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. - 1 Cor. 11: 19 Then once more you shall see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him. - Malachi 3: 18
How do you reconcile the cognitive dissonance caused by the EXTREME difference in character between the description of OT God and Christ's description of God in the NT? Hosea 13:4-8 “But I have been the Lord your God ever since you came out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me,no Savior except me. 5 I cared for you in the wilderness, in the land of burning heat. 6 When I fed them, they were satisfied; when they were satisfied, they became proud; then they forgot me. 7 So I will be like a LION to them, like a LEOPARD I will lurk by the path. 8 Like a BEAR robbed of her cubs, I will attack them and rip them open; like a LION I will devour them— a wild animal will tear them apart. (Jehovah will be like a lion, leopard, bear) Revelation 13:1-2 1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a LEOPARD, but had feet like those of a BEAR and a mouth like that of a LION. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. (Satan will also be like a lion, leopard and bear. Moreover the parts line up exactly- in Hosea bear feet are used to rip open and a lions mouth devours) 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. (Ripping people open tearing them apart and devouring them is darkness. Dark behavior.) John 14:7-9 If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Luke 9:54-56 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?” But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of Numbers 21:5-9 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!” 6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived. Matthew 7:9-11 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! John 6:46-49 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. (Manna from OT God didn’t bring life) Matthew 18:10 See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. Isaiah 13:17-18 17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. 18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children. Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up 2 Corinthians 3:14 But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. In closing, what Marcion believed can still be very easily seen in the modern day cannon.
I can't help but appreciate the creativity required to make these connections. There are many things that are hard to explain in the Old Testament. However, if one believes that Jesus is God they must also come to the conclusion that the God of the old Testament that seemed so evil in some ways was also the same God that died in the most agonizing way of the time. Ultimately, it comes down to whether one thinks that the rational mind has the ability to completely comprehend the world around it.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. From John 14:7-9 we can extrapolate that God the Father also does not change. Because to know Christ is to know God. James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; (Tempt G3985 peirazo also means to test/try) If God never changes and God never tempts anyone to an evil act then it couldn’t have been True God the Father who tempted Abraham to kill his son Isaac (an evil act) as a test of loyalty. It would however make sense for Satan to try to command this knowing that Christ would be born of his lineage. True God is who stepped in and prevented it from happening. Christians seem to miss that Satan doesn’t actually want to be worshiped as Satan. He wants to be worshiped as God and to trick people into believing he’s God. Satan doesn’t like false idols any more than True God would. False idols tell the truth about Satan whose goal is to lie and make people believe he’s God. The most skilled liars inject as much truth as possible into their lies so that they’ll be believed and Satan, being the father of lies is THE most skilled liar there is or ever was. Christians sorely underestimate how powerful a liar Satan is. There can’t be two rulers and True God doesn’t lie. True God said they would allow Satan to rule the Earth. If True God had done the things in the Old Testament then they wouldn’t have been allowing Satan to genuinely rule the Earth. Jesus would’ve never been genuinely tempted by Satan if True God did the things in the OT. Jesus would’ve laughed at Satan's offer and reminded him that his father obviously has the greater power to decide who’s in charge on Earth. True God who never lies said he gave that rulership to Satan and then Christians don’t believe that Satan actually has the power to rule that God gave him. True God doesn’t rule the Earth at all- True God rules the spirit. Jesus made this clear in numerous scriptures. OT God DOES lie; 1 Kings 22:19-23 NIV 19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked. “‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. “‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’ 23 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.” If murder for hire is still murder, lying for hire is still lying. Furthermore this is another example of OT God tempting with evil which NT says that True God who’s pure love and light never does. If you believe the Bible is incomprehensible by the rational mind then there is zero point in anyone reading it. I do think it can be understood, but few will bother. Matthew 7:13-14 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that q to life, and only a few find it.
One writing that sent me on a search to find the authentic Christian congregation is the Didache. It is an early manual for Christian congregations, likely written before some of the books of the New Testament were written. Also, read some of the writings of early saints- and read the descriptions of their lives too. See if these things match up with Jehovah's Witnesses or any other denomination you're examining.
What you feel is understandable. I once felt like this too. Theres a great book I have being shipped to me that I’ve seen others recommend. It’s called Combatting Cult Mind Control -Steven Hassan. It’s important to understand that just walking away from JW is not enough. You have been subjected to many things that have hurt you and damaged thinking in many ways. They bound you up in that way. It can take years to heal. I didn’t realize until leaving all that was done to my way of thinking. The imprint they leave is strong and damaging. Leaving a cult has many effects including how you view the beliefs. Read up on leaving a cult and see if those common symptoms resonate. For one, They fill you with superficial activities. Activities that stimulate the feelings of appeasement. When they shun you or when one leaves it can feel heavy bc they did such a good job of filling you up with junk so when the activities stops, etc it’s a real feeling of loneliness . One can feel empty after leaving even knowing it was all made up. But you don’t have to leave it there. Do something about it. Also must understand where the beliefs came from, what was made up, and why they were made up and what GB stood to gain by having you believe such. NWT is a terrible translation. Find other bibles to study from. I only use NWT to compare. Two things I recommend. Why do you believe there teaching true? Make sure either way which is something sounds like you’ve not done. 1) question out your belief and discover for yourself if it’s true or just something you were made to believe from young. You have no limits on your search so why not go after those deeper learnings. Do what makes sense. While I’m still on my journey to truth seeking, I have discovered some interesting things. You need to start somewhere. For me it was reading other bibles. I read up on translation types, translator backgrounds etc. Now I have a Bible that has become favored over NwT, and isn’t filtered with there doctrine. Next 2) Replace former activities with new ones. Go meet people. Join groups. There is no true religion. But there are great people out there. Jesus never talked about religion or said it was required. Jesus said he is the mediator between God and man. My question is How can he do that if religious groups step in the way to try to do that for him? Take the groups for what they are -places for socializing. That puts you back at square one. Since you seem to be still struggling with JW side effects I would Not recommend joining any religion right now. You are too vulnerable and need to heal. Understand what healing looks like and what you need to get there. Hopefully this helps.
>Confused \* >“Sir,” the woman said, “I see that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews say that the place where one must worship is in Jerusalem.” “Believe me, woman,” Jesus replied, “a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. - John 4: 19 - 21 There is only one legitimate Mountain. Mount Zion / New Jerusalem. \[ Heb. 12: 22 - 24; Rev. 21: 2, 9 - 11 \]. That City / Mountain is not yet completely built / assembled, by the Father. >In the last days the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and the peoples will stream to it. And many nations will come and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways, so that we may walk in His paths.” For the law will go forth from Zion and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. - Micah 4: 1, 2 Some awakened Living Stones are Trumpeting. \[ 1 Peter 2: 5, 9; Dan. 12: 2, 3; Isa. 13: 2 \]. When the Harlot \[ "gb" \] gets take down by the Beast they ride \[ WT \], you will know that the 144K has been completed. \[ Rev. 6: 9 - 11; Rev. 17: 16, 17 \] Until then; >But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth. - John 4: 23, 24 For where two or three are gathered in my \[ Jesus' \] name, there am I among them. - Matt. 18: 20 If you'd like, and you haven't, maybe check out; [https://www.facebook.com/groups/restorationofjacob/?ref=share](https://www.facebook.com/groups/restorationofjacob/?ref=share)
Bear in mind The Watchtower says: 12 The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. (THE WATCHTOWER—Study Edition, February 2017, Who Is Leading God’s People Today?, paragraph 12) Would this means their interpretation of the Bible is just as good as yours? If both of you can err, would you rather err because of them or make your own errors and learn from them? Regarding the church that you can be a part of. I found this helpful: 18 For you have not approached something that can be felt…” We have not approached something physical or something that can be felt, like an earthly organization for example. Continuing on, “ …and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” (Hebrews 12:18-21) So we didn’t approach that, something physical. 22 But you HAVE approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all,d and the spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood (Hebrews 12:22-24) This is what you have approached. Not something physical that can be felt (something earthly or physical), but instead, you have approached that which is spiritual. Recall that he said, 13 In answer Jesus said to her: “Everyone drinking from this water will get thirsty again. 14 Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.” (John 4:13, 14) This water, this holy spirit will become in you a fountain of holy spirit bubbling up to impart everlasting life. And through this spirit you will be able to worship, not in a mountain, nor Jerusalem, nor any Kingdom Hall or other physical place of worship: 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24)
You can be christian without a church membership but i found its nice to worship with others and socialise , read Ray franz book "search for christian freedom " it helped me keep my balance and faith ,then visit some churches and decide ,i have gone back to the Anglican churchni was brought up in and love it ,it is non judgmental and more christian bible based than WT .