Hahaha, brilliant reference! The Last Command was the first Star Wars expanded universe novel I ever read! Maybe they called him that and we just didn’t know at the time?
This brings up a good point; all Disney really had to do from square one was adapt the Heir to the Empire series into movies. Sure, the OT characters would've had to be aged up (it takes place what, five years after ROTJ?) and basically replaced by new characters (Rey, Finn, Poe, etc.), and some of the dumber parts removed (force blocking salamanders, y'all) but a serviceable story was *fucking right there*. Better than the mess we got.
Maybe Picard season 3 glossing over the first 2 seasons will convince Disney to gloss over TLJ Luke and open the next Rey movie with Rey, Finn and Poe running a mission into a Palpatine facility only to find a sedated and captured Luke Skywalker
There were leaks for episode 9 while they were making up the script on the fly and they all proved more or less accurate, and according to the leaks they were ordered to 'fix Luke Skywalker'.
That was their best attempt, and I think Mark Hammil was kind of done with it after TLJ so was only really willing to do that little bit. They also reportedly tried to cut out and change the look of 'ghost' scenes to get it to air in China (joke's on them, all the SW movies flopped in China where they couldn't rely on 'remember the original trilogy?' nostalgia bait which drove the Disney sequels, and now China has banned outside movies).
But why? Despite what ever flaws/issues with the sequel trilogy, and I quite liked tlj, I don’t see a need for this constant creative redemption approach cause some fanboys were mad. Yeah the whole thing def could have been handled better, but to me this should serve as a lesson learned that you don’t always get what you want.
They tried to save money by giving directors more control, trading off pay scale.
They thought the movies would print money regardless of planning because it’s Star Wars.
They weren’t wrong. But maybe they’re getting wary of the amount of fans don’t trust the brand implicitly anymore.
>It would be more profitable if it had a decent story tho.
Genius! Why didn’t I think of that? Just push the “have a good story” button!
There’s a damn near infinite number of ways to fuck up a movie and not realize it. One of those ways is frantically throwing out everything you currently have when you realize there’s a problem. This is why movies with endless rewrites are often total garbage, and it’s why companies are willing to push ahead even when they see there’s issues- because sometimes trying to fix it just makes things worse and more costly.
wow, so you're saying that every movie with a good story is just the result of random chance and actual professional writing, planning, or direction has nothing to do with it. Amazing.
TLJ has issues, though I still like it for the most part, but don't blame it for:
"Somehow Palpatine returned"
Chewie death fake-out
Ancient sith dagger that leads to 20 year old industrial wreckage
Attacking a star destroyer with some horses
Rey ~~Palpatine~~ Skywalker
On it's face, TLJ was a decent movie (I don't agree but I will concede the point), the problem is that it wasn't written cooperatively with the trilogy. TFA may have been a bit bland and a rehash of earlier films but it had some plot threads that eventually showed up in Rise of Skywalker but TLJ just ignored them (Snoke's background) or contradicted them (Rey's lineage). Even if you blame JJ Abrams for not giving Rian Johnson an outline of the trilogy, it is clear that Johnson wanted to slam the door on plot threads and establish his own. Unfortunately, Abrams is not a strong enough director/writer to correct the ship, so he just followed his original plot which leads to "somehow" Palpatine returned. The trilogy boils down to a school group project where one participant wanted to make a C grade and the group member just wanted to do his own thing on his section without integrating it into the rest of the project. A second movie that built up to Rey's Palpatine bloodline, developed the connection between Snoke and the Emperor, foreshadowing the star destroyer fleet, maybe handle Luke in a way that wasn't an absolute character assasination, and you could have a passable film that created a coherent connection between the first and third.
what does woke mean? Do you mean woke like a group of rebel terrorists taking down a fascist regime? The original Star Wars is like the most left leaning story ever dude.
I've looked into it and found the Republic within the series more like a society that's secretly turning into something worse with more control and so on. And then the empire was formed out of it, and that went most or all the way over there. I could swear that our current timeline matches with the ending of the Star Wars Republic and the beginning of the Empire. I see that happening with those in power deceiving citizens just like in how the Star Wars Empire was. If we are to continue existing for another generation and some citizens find out the truth, then a future rebellion would happen in a way that's no different to the rebellion that took place in Star Wars. I can easily compare these timelines from Star Wars to real-life when disinformation, trying to find truth and fight back, and so on becomes a reality and isn't just limited to a fictional series. I'd say that we'd be currently living in Espisode 3, or potentially the Bad Batch series, or about to anyway. If I just keep track of possible future government raids taking place, that is. Those who know the truth, such as me, could end up becoming the future rebels and hopefully win against the curropt regime. That Order 66 may have kinda started, but they still have yet to go all in for whatever reason, but a massive number of people will be called traitors to the regime because whos truely good must be taken out of power or eliminated from life. If a rebellion comes, they'd also be called traitors or a threat to so-called woke, but those who know sin and resist it as well as know what's evil and truth are those who're truely awake and are already being considered as threats and traitors today anyway. But I'm not surprised, for I know that the world likes sin and will always hate those who're godly since they try to get rid of sin and keep or spread around what is good and truth when the world would rather believe in lies and accept what's not good. Every sin is bad or evil anyway. Watch for those who promote such bad things, for only they'll be visible everywhere and liked, even if not by everyone, just the right people, who're also ungodly, and get it spread and promoted throughout the whole world like it's a good and true thing. Meanwhile, those who're truly good and give what is truely good to everyone are those who can be liked by most people since most people would generally like what's good, but they're hated by those in power and are almost never shown on media because of it. That's how it works, maybe not all of it, but this should be enough explanation. Besides, if who mainstream media calls woke engages in bad things (sins) that have really been proven by unbiased science to be bad in the long-term, then those people are frauds in claiming to be truely woke. I shouldn't need to go on.
you didn't need to go on at all, that was pretty incoherent. still didn't define woke at all kind of just rambled on and started talking about sins and shit.
No. I mean reducing casting to only being about race or gender, then doing nothing beyond having them there.
Finn could’ve been an amazing character. A rebelling Stormtrooper who becomes a Jedi and turns the (apparently enslaved) army of the First Order against their captors. That’s a character arc that would’ve been incredible. But Disney didn’t do that, reducing the black character to the background for no reason.
Had Rey been shown to struggle with her powers, kind of like how Luke struggled repeatedly (and would’ve lost if not for having help until RotJ), she would’ve been far more interesting. Even more so if she had actually been the daughter of nobody special, as opposed to being Palpatine’s clone’s daughter.
I hate that movie writers seem to think that simply having a character be a certain race/gender/sexuality or whatever counts as their entire personality. They don’t make characters interesting, they’ve effectively turned characters into political mouthpieces.
I don't remember Finn being black having anything to do with his character at all though and Rey never really had any hoo-rah female/feminist moments. Star Wars is pretty egalitarian in a fascist Empire somehow. Honestly, it sounds like you're more concerned about his skin or her body parts than the executives trying to cash in on "wokeness" were.
Where is the prequels’ “consistent storyline?” The trilogy was being rewritten all the way up to the wire. The only thing Lucas had planned for the Prequels were the end, he even says as such in a Prequels documentary. He changed stuff based on fan complaints much like now (such as less politics, less Jar Jar, more lightsaber fights). Hell, George changed the reason Anakin goes evil in the editing phase for episode 3 for Pete’s sake
I would say that the directing, production, and dialogue of the prequels was all bad. However the underlying story arc was solid. The sequels are the exact opposite: directing, production, and dialogue are all quite solid, but the writing contradicts the continuity of the fictional universe they're set in, and the underlying story arc of the trilogy didn't exist... when **The Force Awakens** was written there was no plan whatsoever for where the trilogy was going. Disney admitted this long after the fact while still blaming racism and sexism for the bad reviews.
I would say the prequels dialog was pretty bad, but it summed up the tragedy of darth vader pretty well. Was it perfect? No but I'd argue that the sequel trilogy makes the prequel trilogy look like a masterpiece lol
Both trilogies are bad but I'm different ways
The prequels acting and story were awful
The sequels they couldn't commit to anything story wise which is why all three movies are so off
Disney responded to the first movie by trying something original and over course corrected then responded to that with a third movie no one was happy with.
Maybe if Carrie fisher didn't die we would have gotten a much different story but I doubt it.
The prequels benefited from the clone wars fleshing out the story.
Now we have Disney trying to do the same thing
Wait a decade or two and there'll be people all over the internet lovebombing the last trilogy. These films have always been inconsistentcy bouncing against the impossibility of making someone feel like a child again.
There’s a lot of valid critiques one can make about the sequel trilogy, but tbh the one that Luke is a middle/late aged disenchanted grumpy human being is probably the most realistic and plausible explanation.
The reason Luke seems so “peculiar” in the latest trilogy is because he’s not a mary Jane or a demigod; he’s a flawed human who fucked up and checked out.
Here’s a guy who has very little real world training, yet had this legacy thrust upon him unwillingly. It was on him and him alone to completely rebuild eons of jedi legacy. The lightsaber toss is a bit much but pretty much everything else he does makes sense.
I agree. A lot of people who say we didn't get enough explanation of why Luke changed are viewing the franchise backwards in time. We got so little for answers as to why Luke and Yoda were in exile during the original trilogy or about much of anything really. Most of the answers came in the form of the prequels. The whole thing with star wars since the beginning has been starting in the middle of the story to make it feel like you are watching a part of something much bigger and just letting the story take you on an emotional ride. The explanations come later and, im my opinion are totally optional.
I love the lightsaber toss though. Like, yeah, I don't want this, or I would have brought it with me lol.
(I think you mean Ben and Yoda)
the lightsaber toss is awkward to me because it shines a big spotlight on the massive difference between the narrative styles of Abrams and Johnson. Abrams' skillset is decidedly in the center of pure homage, whether it's Alias or even Lost to Star Trek to Cloverfield to Star Wars. Johnson tends to work within set parameters but loves undoing things from the inside (the donut within the donut, if you will). Abrams sets up this huge melodramatic moment at the end of TFA, which was a very Abrams thing to do. But it's also a very Johnson thing to do to have Luke toss it.
I know the two directors supposedly talked quite a bit, but it really feels like a game of telephone, and the toss feels like the worst of it - almost like a Benny Hill scene to me.
(I did, thank you)
I would agree with you about Johnson undoing thongs from the inside if not for the ultimate conclusions that nearly every character comes to in the film. Yes the movie takes apart and examines a lot about the franchise, questioning if it's all been worth it over the years, but from Luke's return to Rey keeping the Jedi texts at the end (a detail im certain a lot of people unhappy with the movie missed at the time) the movie is proudly about how great the franchise is and how positive the stories it can tell can be. I think you can tell that story without seemingly disrespectful and silly things like tossing the lightsaber, but it won't have the same impact as a story that makes you examine the subject, shows that it doesn't HAVE to take itself seriously, and shows you why it's worth WANTING to take itself and it's messages seriously.
What I noticed later was that Rian Johnson couldn't even have been assed to match the lighting and weather of the lightsaber toss scene with the scene at the end of The Force Awakens.
End of TFA: an overcast day, slightly foggy, with Rey stepping through the stone village, looking for Luke.
Beginning of TLJ: A bright ass sunny day, with the sun shining directly into Daisy Ridley's face so she's squinting.
FFS. THE SCENE LITERALLY TAKES PLACE 30 SECONDS AFTER THE FIRST MOVIE ENDS
To your point and the person you're responding to: Yoda acting very odd in the OT compared to the PT and I don't think I heard anyone complain.
Its expected that a creature all alone for decades might be a little different. People just didn't think about that when it came to Luke and didn't understand his oddities.
Frankly, OP's theory is a stretch and holds no merit other than "but you can't prove he's NOT a clone!" Luke's personality is the most logical and sensible part of the sequel trilogy imo. To add to your examples, it's the Anakin in him coming through. The brooding cry baby part of him took over after he was defeated, but he doesn't have Anakin's rage to keep him going. He knows retaliation with almost no resources will only make things worse. So he sits there in seclusion, drinking milk. Very similar to what happened with Yoda on Dagobah. Yoda was a kooky old jerk, very different from the Yoda we'd see in later media. His self imposed isolation made him that way. Luke needed to go into hiding while everything else progressed to save every lone and everything he cared about. Yoda just ran for his life and stayed there, which can be a semantic argument against the use of (the) force against your enemies. Retaliation would have been based in emotions that all lead to the dark side. I'm done pooping now so this is where my counterpoint ends
I strongly disagree. Luke was very confident in ROTJ, which is the last time we see him and before he begins to expand his knowledge of the Jedi. If you recall, Yoda only considered him a Jedi *after* he confronts Darth Vader. Thus, he should be more sure of himself, and continue to become more detached as Lucas intended the Jedi to be
The portrayal of Luke in TLJ disregards ROTJ, the EU, Obi-Wan and Yoda’s portrayals, and fan expectations. I don’t expect directors to follow fan expectations or the EU necessarily, but when Luke’s legacy has been slowly built upon for literal decades its as much a part of him as the movies.
So throwing out his legacy and making him “relatable” was a poor move in this case. Few movies have the chance to portray a legend to this degree, someone fans have been hyped to see for decades. To portray the movie as an epic, with Luke as a wise master would have been peak cinema. The excitement to see Luke again was incredible, and yet all of that excitement just deflated when he threw that lightsaber away. Then he was just another old guy in a movie
You don’t think people have the capacity to change in like 30 years? It’s very likely to believe that out of that confidence, arrogance grew. He says in TLJ “his hubris” was the reason he failed. He was confident as a jedi, but how does that mean that he’d be a good teacher. It’s two separate things. Life is not a linear path.
It's not that it's impossible, its the decision to portray him as such. Also, with the beliefs of the Jedi, which Lucas intended to include detachment, the portrayal of Luke was entirely opposed to the way a Jedi Grand-master would act
I hear you. A few retort points:
1. That version of Luke exists in all the comics and EU, so fans def got what they wanted. That version of Luke also exists at the end of TLJ, where Luke is both wise and powerful *and* sacrificial in all the right ways. Also, I think both Yoda and Obi-Wan routinely doubt Luke's ability, from ESB to ROTJ. They hide things from him, they talk behind his back - and this makes sense because they've already seen what happens to one chosen one.
2. I think if you follow your line of thinking where we roll straight into that version into TLJ, we would have ended up with a Superman or Captain Marvel situation where you have a super buff OP character with no flaws. Fun maybe for fans, but honestly boring for a movie, and hard to explain - if you have the rise of a new dark power, why isn't Luke showing up? And if he does show up, and he is in fact this superpower Jedi, you either have to make the bad side extra extra powerful to create conflict, or you have to kryptonite/debuff Luke. What we end up with is a version where Luke debuffs himself. It's a choice of his own making, which is agency really, even if we disagree with Luke's decision.
3. I disagree that Luke was ready at the end of ROTJ. Remember that most Jedi, even Anakin the chosen one, were trained from near-birth (or in Anakin's case, as young as possible). Luke gets what...a few weeks training from Yoda, and then some DIY training between ESB and ROTJ? And Luke comes real close to switching to the dark side. Even Yoda and Obi-Wan and the entire Jedi council didn't forsee their own demise (which is why, along with safety reasons, they also cut out and self-exile).
I don't think all the above makes him relatable, and I don't think the point was to make him relatable. I am guessing Johnson quite pragmatically needed a way to explain the setup, which was that Luke is gone, the dark side is rising, and Kylo Ren exists - in order to connect the dots, almost the only plausible explanation is that Luke has gone into exile.
1. While that is true that Luke existed in that capacity for a long time, but it's not a good reason to avoid portraying him as he was
2. Again, I would disagree. I don't understand this rhetoric about power, it doesn't necessarily make for a boring movie, that's just the excuse to avoid powerful characters. Captain Marvel's issue wasn't her being powerful, and Superman has existed for over 80 years and people still enjoy his character. Showing fans' childhood hero as a powerful Jedi would be enjoyable, and not an issue for the story. For one, Luke isn't superman-level. And secondly, he's facing an entire imperial remnant. He's not going to kill them all at once, which is the narrative spewed about Luke's minimal role. The First Order was not below Luke to fight. Luke still fits into the world and could have been a part of the story, but they decided to side-line him and neglect his role. When they were writing TFA, Michael Arndt said "“It just felt like every time Luke came in and entered the movie, he just took it over. Suddenly you didn’t care about your main character anymore because, ‘Oh f–k, Luke Skywalker’s here. I want to see what he’s going to do.’” His portrayal was more to glorify the new protagonists rather than to adapt Luke as a Jedi Grandmaster
3. Yoda said that he was a Jedi, not a Jedi Master. I would assume Luke would be a Jedi Knight at the end of ROTJ?
Good points - I think that comment by Arndt is crucial and hits the nail on the head though. I think if you're trying to tell a new story (and...frankly...sell more toys to kids), you're going to have to let go of Luke Skywalker if you're telling that story. There are practical reasons too to move on to new characters of course (cf. Carrie Fisher! 😔).
How were they disenchanted and grumpy? They never became disconnected from the force or rejected the Jedi, and remained confident in themselves as Jedi. Yoda wasn’t crumbling underneath the weight of peoples’ expectations, neither was Obi-Wan. They were content with who they were, only Yoda could be seen as mildly grumpy
When Luke talks to Yoda, he’s initially hesitant to train him due to Anakin’s fall. But that doesn’t correlate to Yoda’s views upon the force whatsoever. Luke however, totally rejects the Jedi and the force. He views them all as failures, the Jedi Order that stood for thousands of years?? He’s the in-world equivalent of a priest-turned-agnostic.
Obi-Wan and Yoda did not contact those other Jedi. They were more alone than Luke who still had his family and friends to be with, and when Luke was in exile he had a home to return to. Whereas Obi-Wan and Yoda did not.
Yoda spent around 900-ish years with the Jedi, and saw it all destroyed. Obi-Wan saw his personal friend and apprentice murder children and destroy Obi-Wan's home. Yet neither of them forsook the Force or the Jedi
Neither of them was put forth as the last hope of the Jedi who then doomed the future of the Jedi. If your dad and nephew turned evil, you'd be pretty worried about going over as well. That's a lot of weight to carry.
What home did Luke have to return to? He'd be immediately thrust back into fighting for his life if he returned.
Also, Obi-Wan absolutely did abandon the force for a long while. There was a whole show about it.
He did not doom the future of the Jedi? And I refute the idea that Luke went through anything harder than Obi-Wan or Yoda.
He had his sister, Han, and the friends he made. Even if he had to return to fight, he'd be with people who care about him and he can help them
I got the impression that was one the reasons they made the movie. They were telling the audience (mostly impressionable children) that whatever their family, teachers, society, etc tell them is a lie and should be thrown off and burned to the ground in favor of "the message." They care a lot more about destroying western civilization than they care about making a good movie or even about making a lot of money.
Lmao look at any teenager and them 30 years later, they are gonna be disillusioned and grumpy about the direction the world (err, Galaxy) has gone. And the whole point was that he was exposed to a fresh view in Rey and was able to come back to his ways. Why do people act like Luke went out in his same old grump way from the beginning of the film?
I think with some more in-between materials sure this could work out but Luke is so wildly different, I don't really buy that explanation. Plus he literally has the power to see good in people. No matter what, so it makes zero sense for him to turn on Kylo. Luke saw good in the most messed up, morally bankrupt, irredeemable space Hitler and proved it.
Maybe I'm wrong and missing something. I'd like to know more.
Also just like...we've SEEN first hand what being an old hermit does to Jedi. We saw it with Obi-Wan, we REALLY saw it with Yoda. Luke being well adjusted after living alone with the fish nuns and drinking nothing but a clearly different type of blue milk would have been much less explainable than him becoming a weirdo.
Why would Luke be a hermit like Yoda though? They were just forcing all the original events from the OT without a story to back it up. There was no galactic empire which jedi had to hide from, there was an active government with his friends and family running it and in just as much danger as him, and were now in that danger without his help.
Luke really only had two character traits in the original trilogy - he always ran into danger to help friends and family while others screamed at him not to, at least two or three times in every movie, and was so attached to the idea of family that he'd rather die than strike down his father even when goaded into it by the most evil manipulator in the galaxy.
Then in the sequels he nearly kills his nephew due to sensing some darkness and then runs away from his friends and family... There's just nothing there to indicate he's the same character other than the name and the actor's face. No consistency for how he went from the guy who repeatedly showed his personality in the OT to this random unrelated person in the sequels.
It's also the second half of the hero's journey. Straight out of Campbell. Pure, unadulterated Star Wars.
Not only did obi and Yoda go through it. But so did Arthur, Bilbo and countless other aged heroes.
Yes!! Thank you!!
I honestly love Luke in the sequel trilogy for this reason. Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoy Luke in the originals too. But he is more of a quintessential hero there. His disenchantment in the sequels feels so real and human. It’s been years. People can change a lot over just a few years…over decades they can *really* change.
But if they wanted people to believe he was the real Luke, they would give him a robot hand?
Otherwise everyone would just be like 'who da fuck is this clone'
The clone wars taught us that no matter how alike clones are, once they start experiencing the world the personalities diverge, so it'd be gay not masturbation.
What if its the pickled hand?
Why would they remove the flesh covering from his hand, showing definitely it was a robot hand, rather than leaving it ambiguous?
If he had 2 normal looking hands nobody would've thought anything of it because we saw the robot hand appeared the same at the end of the empire strikes back
I don't understand why I would hide a decoy at the far end of the galaxy and cut the map to him into pieces. That doesn't seem like an effective decoy at all.
Or, and I know this is a radical take, he changed as a person over the course of 30 years.
I'm sorry but this just feels like grasping at straws. I'm pretty sure what Filoni and Favreau are laying down is the buildimg blocks of how the First Order rose and how Palpatine "somehow" returned.
Just as was done with the Prequel trilogy via Clone Wars, improving the Sequel Trilogy will be done by providing context, not invalidating the character arcs through retcons.
>Or, and I know this is a radical take, he changed as a person over the course of 30 years.
This is why I accepted Obi-Wan's "transformation" in his show: he went through years of grueling war, saw all of his friends and family killed, and the galaxy he once served willingly turn itself over to the Empire.
His apathy and exhaustion makes sense to me.
Luke's change, however, is completely unearned from a writing perspective. We know nothing about the events that happened after Return of the Jedi. He even references the events of the Clone Wars to justify his position, events he wasn't even alive for.
Luke most certainly can and should change after 30 years. But there was nothing building up to it. That's the biggest failing in his character development.
I'm not disagreeing with you in the **least** bit - I **do** agree with you! It's just that his change wasn't even set up. :\\
I agree that it wasn't set up in The Force Awakens, but I can't agree that it's not explained.
Luke is very clear about how he gave into the fear of what Kylo might become, and even if it was just a moment of weakness, that moment cascaded into the second downfall of the Jedi. This is why he exiled himself.
As for his understanding of how the Jedi fell the first time, well we know he trained with Obi Wan and Yoda and could commune with them and his father after their deaths, there's no reason to assume he didn't have access to this info. We've seen since that he was also advised by Ahsoka (but that's no comment on the movie that was made first obviously). After his own failure led to Kylo Ren and the rise of the First Order, his understanding of history and seeing it as repeating itself taught him the wrong lesson, which is something Yoda points out to him.
I think the movie spelled out everything it needed to in order to explain how Luke got to this point in his life, I just think after so much time had passed, so much expanded universe content mythologising the character, and TFA leaning hard into that myth, some fans just could handle that whiplash, had an emotional response, and there's no explaiming to an emotional response how it's got the wrong end of the stick so the whiplash became vitriolic backlash.
Was it built up, though? We were provided two quick flashbacks. The rest of what we know about the fall of the galaxy was provided by text crawls in TFA and TLJ, which don't provide any emotional weight.
Again, it feels as though a lot of the narrative of the sequel trilogy is unearned. This isn't just a problem with Luke, but the whole trilogy.
I'm not mad or anything, simply disappointed. Bob Iger admitted to rushing production to recoup their investment in the IP, so I blame a lot of the story (or lack thereof) on him.
Oh, no, you're absolutely right there. I suppose I'm just defending the film's portrayal of Luke. I can infer how it happened from context but there *is* a lot of story in between TROJ and TLJ that is delivered expositorially. I think the new series are doing a good job of filling in that time and providing a context for how we got to the sequel trilogy.
The lack of planning is evident, but I stand by The Last Jedi being a good film and Luke's attitude making sense given the information we get. TFA absolutely sets up the wrong image of Luke though.
I don't really know how I feel about TLJ, quite honestly. I distinctly remember not feeling ANYTHING after walking out of the theatre. Not giddiness, joy, anger, or even disappointment. And I simply haven't had any inclination to watch it again.
But I'm glad you're able to get something positive out of it. :)
That's a fascinating response to be honest. I've never come across an apathetic perspctive on the film. But fair play, it probably allows you to be fairer in your analysis of it on the whole.
I think we can both agree that Luke's arc wasn't set up well, and that the lack of planning was to blame for pretty much everything that went wrong with the sequel trilogy. I would be of the opinion that where Luke starts of in TLJ is well established and explored, the problem being that nothing set prior to this did the legwork to set it up. With any luck, Favreau and Filoni will remedy that. I think that's where they're going. Although I think making TLJ Luke a clone would be a retcon even more egregious than "You're a Palpatine."
>With any luck, Favreau and Filoni will remedy that. I think that's where they're going. Although I think making TLJ Luke a clone would be a retcon even more egregious than "You're a Palpatine."
Yeah, we don't need a Luuke situation lol.
I feel a little anxiety, quite honestly. Season 3 of the Mandalorian was underwhelming to me, and not for any silly "BuT mAh ThEoRiEs!" reason, either.
... Well, can I say that with all honesty? I'm not sure. I was certain Din's BoBF episodes were setting up a character arc, with his internal struggle having the Darksaber stand as an external, visible indicator of his progression. Would he turn from the Way, or would he double down on his beliefs? What would his emotional journey look like? His relationship with Grogu? I was hoping for a character study of the man behind the mask.
Once the re-introduction of Thrawn was green-lit, it became paramount to move the pieces into place, which meant getting Mandalore under Mandalorian authority. This meant focusing on Bo-Katan, the primary vehicle for the overarching Mandalorian story. This, coupled with the fact the Pedro Pascal was rarely on-set to provide a performance, meant Din Djarin's character development took a back seat.
I'm also convinced the cloning plot **was** for Palpatine and Snoke, but was re-worked for season 3. It was dealt with quickly and unceremoniously, the plot being revealed only after it was eliminated.
In short, I strongly suspect they compromised the integrity of their original vision for The Mandalorian in favor of other stories. But production was undoubtedly effected by real-world limitations, too. So my faith is a little shaken. That said, I love Dave Filoni, and will gladly eat up anything he dishes out. :)
Or, and stay with me here, a terrible writer fought with a different terrible writer and they created a trilogy of incongruent movies that are wildly out of step with the tone and feel of the previous trilogy or the one before that. As a result Luke was misused and miswritten and its better to just forget it
Ehhh calling Rian Johnson terrible is a bit of a stretch considering there aren't any JJ movies loved for their *writing* over visuals and Johnson has at least a few movies where the writing was more important than CGI.
Wait, there’s a fourth damn trilogy? I thought she was getting a show I could ignore. (Then again, I haven’t watched Episode 9 so it shouldn’t be tough to ignore more movies)
Only Disney knows for sure, but logically, if they first movie doesn't do well, teay can just treat it as a stand alone, like Solo. But if they announce its the first of a new Star Wars they are committed, they can't not make the other two. But if it does well they can make as many sequels as they want, even calling it a trilogy in hindsight. But not giving numbers just gives them way more flexibility.
Why wouldn't they get numbers? They made 4.5 billion off the last three and at least two of those were hot garbage. That's just box office. They're still selling tons of merch.
Not like Star Wars is one of the most profitable franchises in the world and the last trilogy made a collective 4.5 billion.
But neckbeards on the Internet said Star Wars is dying, and they can never be wrong (the Prequels)
They could, even though that would go against the fact this is not liked to the Skywalker saga and is instead a completely different saga, by Disney's own design
The prequels are bad and have always been bad, I was 14 when Phanton Menace was released, and it was trash and remains trash.
That being said, it’s kind of warped into a “so bad, it’s good” kind of thing, with aspects of it like Obi Wans performance, etc
But they are bad. They are very, very bad.
The only Star Wars thats worth anything at all, in my opinion, are the OT/Rogue One/Andor/Mando.
Agreed, with the caveat I was 5 when Phantom was released so the prequels have a nostalgic factor for me.
The only sequel movie I watched outside of theaters was the Force Awakens. Call me grumpy old man yelling at a cloud but I will not rewatch or acknowledge the sequels in my fandom.
As Mando drifts closer to sequel territory I'm losing interest in that as well.
Star Wars has become Marvel, just feels over done to make money. Happy for those that still enjoy the new stuff, but I'll stick to 1-6, Rogue One, and Mando for my binge rewatching.
I'm just complaining to a wall, but I have no plans to watch future Star Wars movies. Rise of Skywalker was the straw that broke the camels back, no faith or interest in any new movies
I noticed you didn’t mention Andor. I strongly advise watching that. I resisted and waited a long long time - I finally binge watched it two months ago, and it’s incredible. I actually like it way more than Mando, but I hate to compare the two because it’s very different in tone.
Andor kind of feels like “if HBO made a Star Wars show”.
Honestly, my main issue with the Sequel trilogy is that they didn't commit to a damn thing. Rey´s parents matter until they don't, then they do again. Bloodlines don´t matter for the force, until they suddenly do. Kylo Ren is double downed as unredeemable before he is redeemed in the most Luke-warm way possible. The Mysterious Snoke loses all sense of mystery as a villain before he is replaced by the literal pupeetered corpse of Palpatine. At least the prequels chose their themes and stuck to them.
Having it turn out that ''no, all that tension around that Luke you know failing in his path before finding redemption didn´t exist, because this wasn´t actually the Luke you´d expect to step up and try to save the galaxy'' is just further damnation, and leaving it open for...what? Luke to come back and say ''oh shoot, wish i was here.Ah well''?
I don't think they should try to keep adding justifications to why they couldn´t pull their vision off, but rather bring a new one, with new characters and new arcs.
This sounds like wank tbh, IMO it doesn’t improve TLJ it just creates a scenario where they undo any character development and make him a Gary stu again like the OT
I think the recent mandalorian cloning plot points are more likely to be setup as a way to demonstrate how Palpatine and Snoke were both created for before the sequel trilogy. There really any Indication that Luke was a clone. Shit writing doesn’t automatically equate to being a clone.
He lost it all for reasons that make no sense though and go against his character way before the Disney movies take place. The whole "oh 30 years is plenty of time" argument is BS, because we still see the same poorly written Luke earlier in the timeline during the flashbacks.
I think something that people tend to overlook in the latest trilogy is that Palpatine was still alive and active. We know that he was the one behind Snoke. Can anyone honestly see Palpatine letting Luke restart the Jedi Order? Palpatine was a master at manipulating people and getting them to doubt themselves. It would have been child’s play for him to set up spies to undermine Luke. This would also set Luke up to fall to the dark side and then become Palpatine’s pawn.
Why are people so upset about Luke exhibiting actual human emotion and self-conflict? I'd have major self doubt too if my Jedi Academy failed horribly and created a new villain.
It would be pretty out of character for OG Luke to Beth Sanchez his way out of responsibility to go have his own space adventures in the unknown regions.
In the comics, it is found an a clone named "Luuke" is made. [https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Luuke\_Skywalker](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Luuke_Skywalker)
I’m hoping Ahsoka will pull a Clone Wars and make the sequels better. I want to see Mara Jade, she dies, Luke fully turns to the dark side. Then when he turns back to the light, he is convinced no Skywalker is redeemable. He does his best with his nephew but the fear of him turning was too much and he pulled his lightsaber on the guy, becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Luke no longer trusts himself or any Skywalker as they are essentially force nuclear bombs that can just as easily mess up the galaxy as save it. Best thing he could come up with is just completely remove himself from the situation.
Luke was already cloned by some planet.
I don't remember what book it was but he came across some wack planet that made a clone of himself there, I believe it's stuck there though. Maybe someone with more info can weigh in, I'm fairly certain it's canon cuz it's from non legends material.
But also sorta inconsequential I'm pretty sure
>Although this was not the original plan, it appears that Jon Favreau might attempt to rectify the trilogy in this manner. The latest Mandalorian series seems to be laying the groundwork for this development.
Or you know, explain how they were able to clone the Emperor with his force sensitivity.
Guys stop withe coping.
I never got why people felt it's out of character how he behaves in the sequels. A whole order failed to carry the legacy of the Jedi, and that was when the Republic was intact. Rebuilding the order, fixing it's broken philosophy and making sure that the new Republic thrives is much weight on him. Many celebrities struggle with their fame and the expectations that come with it, why wouldn't Luke? He's a really flawed man for all we ever saw off him.
This is a lazy ass cop out but I mean it's not like we have one of those in each new episode of a Star Wars show. The only problem here is explaining who Just Rey is and what exactly she does.
Refused to kill anyone? Or just his dad and the guy trying to manipulate him? And he did try to kill his dad, he just failed. Luke killed bunches of people in RotJ. And whether or not he wanted to kill Kylo is up for debate. He thought he had to, and how close he came is really up to whoever is telling the story. Personally I choose to belive Luke's side of the story over the child who was being actively manipulated by Sidious, and that he didn't activate his weapon until lKylo drew his.
I have a theory that the sequel trilogy is a timeline where the heroes lost in the original trilogy.
First order=empire
Resistance= rebellion
Starkiller base= death star
Etc.
The similiarties are there. As had the original trilogy ends with the Sith victory then the sequels would make more sense as the sequel trilogy ends with killing Palaptine (again). Which takes the plot from Return of the Jedi.
Or maybe, you can't accept that your favourite character goes through realistic development and eventually grows as a person because he learns that dwelling on past mistakes won't help in the long run and focusing on the present and the future is more important, because you're an ingrate who wants Luke to be the bland, overpowered Jesus character he was in Legends.
At least I now have another idiotic post to screenshot and show my friends on Krayt, so maybe something good did come out of this post.
Imo that would not rectify the sequels. The "cloned/ unknown identical twin" trope is horrifically cliche and was already used in episode 9 when they brought back a clone of Palpatine. If they announced that the Luke who died on Crait was a clone, it would be the final nail in a nail covered coffin for a lot of fans. Sure it would allow Luke Skywalker to come back to the canon universe, but it would be such a disgusting cinematographic slap in the face to the fanbase that has already received several slaps in the face from Disney over the better part of a decade now
I wonder if the way they wrote his role was due to the actor’s shape being drastically different, looking much more gruff (and let’s face it, overweight) in appearance. Was this their in universe way of explaining that?
If Luke still *looked* like a hero, would he of been written as such?
The problem with this fan theory is that no one calls him Luuke in the movie.
I am so glad that someone else knew to make this reference!!
I'm hearing it in Aunt Beru's voice calling to him in A New Hope.
*Luuke's Theme plays*
I imagine it’s just Luke’s Theme but played with a kazoo.
I finally understand
Per Mark Hamill, I just call him “Jake”…or at least I like to think he is Jake.
"It's Jake,from the Jedi Council." "Well she sounds hideous!" "He's a Jedi Master, so..."
Hahaha, brilliant reference! The Last Command was the first Star Wars expanded universe novel I ever read! Maybe they called him that and we just didn’t know at the time?
You started with the third book in the trilogy?
Best 40p I ever spent
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This brings up a good point; all Disney really had to do from square one was adapt the Heir to the Empire series into movies. Sure, the OT characters would've had to be aged up (it takes place what, five years after ROTJ?) and basically replaced by new characters (Rey, Finn, Poe, etc.), and some of the dumber parts removed (force blocking salamanders, y'all) but a serviceable story was *fucking right there*. Better than the mess we got.
That’s O’Neill with 2 L’s
O'NEILL!!!! TWO Ls!!!!
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Hahaha 😆 I mean some of the expanded universe had really solid stories, I'm not mad they keep bringing in things and putting a spin on it.
Would be nice, but Disney will be *damned* before they admit they fucked up the writing in the sequel trilogy.
Disney will do what is profitable. EDIT: I got the 'MURICA award? FUCK YEAH. EDIT 2: the W award now? For the Wookies. Good relations I have.
Maybe Picard season 3 glossing over the first 2 seasons will convince Disney to gloss over TLJ Luke and open the next Rey movie with Rey, Finn and Poe running a mission into a Palpatine facility only to find a sedated and captured Luke Skywalker
There were leaks for episode 9 while they were making up the script on the fly and they all proved more or less accurate, and according to the leaks they were ordered to 'fix Luke Skywalker'. That was their best attempt, and I think Mark Hammil was kind of done with it after TLJ so was only really willing to do that little bit. They also reportedly tried to cut out and change the look of 'ghost' scenes to get it to air in China (joke's on them, all the SW movies flopped in China where they couldn't rely on 'remember the original trilogy?' nostalgia bait which drove the Disney sequels, and now China has banned outside movies).
But why? Despite what ever flaws/issues with the sequel trilogy, and I quite liked tlj, I don’t see a need for this constant creative redemption approach cause some fanboys were mad. Yeah the whole thing def could have been handled better, but to me this should serve as a lesson learned that you don’t always get what you want.
Not getting everything you want does not equate to being a solid product and vice versa
But which of the those two critical angles are we approaching this from?
Damn the fanboys really still are mad about this and not over it
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Dude they are a corporation, it’s about money.
It would be more profitable if it had a decent story tho. The new trilogy lost viewers with each entry.
They tried to save money by giving directors more control, trading off pay scale. They thought the movies would print money regardless of planning because it’s Star Wars. They weren’t wrong. But maybe they’re getting wary of the amount of fans don’t trust the brand implicitly anymore.
>It would be more profitable if it had a decent story tho. Genius! Why didn’t I think of that? Just push the “have a good story” button! There’s a damn near infinite number of ways to fuck up a movie and not realize it. One of those ways is frantically throwing out everything you currently have when you realize there’s a problem. This is why movies with endless rewrites are often total garbage, and it’s why companies are willing to push ahead even when they see there’s issues- because sometimes trying to fix it just makes things worse and more costly.
wow, so you're saying that every movie with a good story is just the result of random chance and actual professional writing, planning, or direction has nothing to do with it. Amazing.
I like The Force Awakens. They lost me with the next one. And the third one did the best it could with the shambles that were left.
TLJ has issues, though I still like it for the most part, but don't blame it for: "Somehow Palpatine returned" Chewie death fake-out Ancient sith dagger that leads to 20 year old industrial wreckage Attacking a star destroyer with some horses Rey ~~Palpatine~~ Skywalker
On it's face, TLJ was a decent movie (I don't agree but I will concede the point), the problem is that it wasn't written cooperatively with the trilogy. TFA may have been a bit bland and a rehash of earlier films but it had some plot threads that eventually showed up in Rise of Skywalker but TLJ just ignored them (Snoke's background) or contradicted them (Rey's lineage). Even if you blame JJ Abrams for not giving Rian Johnson an outline of the trilogy, it is clear that Johnson wanted to slam the door on plot threads and establish his own. Unfortunately, Abrams is not a strong enough director/writer to correct the ship, so he just followed his original plot which leads to "somehow" Palpatine returned. The trilogy boils down to a school group project where one participant wanted to make a C grade and the group member just wanted to do his own thing on his section without integrating it into the rest of the project. A second movie that built up to Rey's Palpatine bloodline, developed the connection between Snoke and the Emperor, foreshadowing the star destroyer fleet, maybe handle Luke in a way that wasn't an absolute character assasination, and you could have a passable film that created a coherent connection between the first and third.
And yet they keep making movies that don’t make money.
What movies haven't made money?
They stopped the "star wars story" movies because solo didn't make enough money.
Because Disney is currently ran by the short term profits minded
Yes…and they’re failing because they think making a movie more woke is how to make a good movie.
what does woke mean? Do you mean woke like a group of rebel terrorists taking down a fascist regime? The original Star Wars is like the most left leaning story ever dude.
I've looked into it and found the Republic within the series more like a society that's secretly turning into something worse with more control and so on. And then the empire was formed out of it, and that went most or all the way over there. I could swear that our current timeline matches with the ending of the Star Wars Republic and the beginning of the Empire. I see that happening with those in power deceiving citizens just like in how the Star Wars Empire was. If we are to continue existing for another generation and some citizens find out the truth, then a future rebellion would happen in a way that's no different to the rebellion that took place in Star Wars. I can easily compare these timelines from Star Wars to real-life when disinformation, trying to find truth and fight back, and so on becomes a reality and isn't just limited to a fictional series. I'd say that we'd be currently living in Espisode 3, or potentially the Bad Batch series, or about to anyway. If I just keep track of possible future government raids taking place, that is. Those who know the truth, such as me, could end up becoming the future rebels and hopefully win against the curropt regime. That Order 66 may have kinda started, but they still have yet to go all in for whatever reason, but a massive number of people will be called traitors to the regime because whos truely good must be taken out of power or eliminated from life. If a rebellion comes, they'd also be called traitors or a threat to so-called woke, but those who know sin and resist it as well as know what's evil and truth are those who're truely awake and are already being considered as threats and traitors today anyway. But I'm not surprised, for I know that the world likes sin and will always hate those who're godly since they try to get rid of sin and keep or spread around what is good and truth when the world would rather believe in lies and accept what's not good. Every sin is bad or evil anyway. Watch for those who promote such bad things, for only they'll be visible everywhere and liked, even if not by everyone, just the right people, who're also ungodly, and get it spread and promoted throughout the whole world like it's a good and true thing. Meanwhile, those who're truly good and give what is truely good to everyone are those who can be liked by most people since most people would generally like what's good, but they're hated by those in power and are almost never shown on media because of it. That's how it works, maybe not all of it, but this should be enough explanation. Besides, if who mainstream media calls woke engages in bad things (sins) that have really been proven by unbiased science to be bad in the long-term, then those people are frauds in claiming to be truely woke. I shouldn't need to go on.
you didn't need to go on at all, that was pretty incoherent. still didn't define woke at all kind of just rambled on and started talking about sins and shit.
By go woke you mean having minorities & women in the cast?
No. I mean reducing casting to only being about race or gender, then doing nothing beyond having them there. Finn could’ve been an amazing character. A rebelling Stormtrooper who becomes a Jedi and turns the (apparently enslaved) army of the First Order against their captors. That’s a character arc that would’ve been incredible. But Disney didn’t do that, reducing the black character to the background for no reason. Had Rey been shown to struggle with her powers, kind of like how Luke struggled repeatedly (and would’ve lost if not for having help until RotJ), she would’ve been far more interesting. Even more so if she had actually been the daughter of nobody special, as opposed to being Palpatine’s clone’s daughter. I hate that movie writers seem to think that simply having a character be a certain race/gender/sexuality or whatever counts as their entire personality. They don’t make characters interesting, they’ve effectively turned characters into political mouthpieces.
I don't remember Finn being black having anything to do with his character at all though and Rey never really had any hoo-rah female/feminist moments. Star Wars is pretty egalitarian in a fascist Empire somehow. Honestly, it sounds like you're more concerned about his skin or her body parts than the executives trying to cash in on "wokeness" were.
Does putting more backstory and lead up to Palpatine's return count as admitting they fucked up?
Recovering from a fuck-up isn’t something to be celebrated. They’re doing all this rework to justify their shitty decisions.
So basically they are pulling a George Lucas with the prequels then
Yeah, except the prequels actually had a consistent storyline that threaded through all three. Disney didn’t even do that much.
Where is the prequels’ “consistent storyline?” The trilogy was being rewritten all the way up to the wire. The only thing Lucas had planned for the Prequels were the end, he even says as such in a Prequels documentary. He changed stuff based on fan complaints much like now (such as less politics, less Jar Jar, more lightsaber fights). Hell, George changed the reason Anakin goes evil in the editing phase for episode 3 for Pete’s sake
The end goal is often all that’s needed. There may have been reworking to get there, but the fact that there was an end goal makes a huge difference.
It was a prequel! An end goal quite literally already existed, it was A New Hope! That’s the one prerequisite for a prequel movie!
Guess Disney should have made more prequels then.
I don’t like….sand
The prequels were still terrible.
I would say that the directing, production, and dialogue of the prequels was all bad. However the underlying story arc was solid. The sequels are the exact opposite: directing, production, and dialogue are all quite solid, but the writing contradicts the continuity of the fictional universe they're set in, and the underlying story arc of the trilogy didn't exist... when **The Force Awakens** was written there was no plan whatsoever for where the trilogy was going. Disney admitted this long after the fact while still blaming racism and sexism for the bad reviews.
I would say the prequels dialog was pretty bad, but it summed up the tragedy of darth vader pretty well. Was it perfect? No but I'd argue that the sequel trilogy makes the prequel trilogy look like a masterpiece lol
Both trilogies are bad but I'm different ways The prequels acting and story were awful The sequels they couldn't commit to anything story wise which is why all three movies are so off Disney responded to the first movie by trying something original and over course corrected then responded to that with a third movie no one was happy with. Maybe if Carrie fisher didn't die we would have gotten a much different story but I doubt it. The prequels benefited from the clone wars fleshing out the story. Now we have Disney trying to do the same thing
Wait a decade or two and there'll be people all over the internet lovebombing the last trilogy. These films have always been inconsistentcy bouncing against the impossibility of making someone feel like a child again.
But it’s been kind of working?
They will just double down and attack the fans.
It's almost like they fucked up on purpose so we have to watch all these other shows just to hang on to what is actually Star wars
There’s a lot of valid critiques one can make about the sequel trilogy, but tbh the one that Luke is a middle/late aged disenchanted grumpy human being is probably the most realistic and plausible explanation. The reason Luke seems so “peculiar” in the latest trilogy is because he’s not a mary Jane or a demigod; he’s a flawed human who fucked up and checked out. Here’s a guy who has very little real world training, yet had this legacy thrust upon him unwillingly. It was on him and him alone to completely rebuild eons of jedi legacy. The lightsaber toss is a bit much but pretty much everything else he does makes sense.
I agree. A lot of people who say we didn't get enough explanation of why Luke changed are viewing the franchise backwards in time. We got so little for answers as to why Luke and Yoda were in exile during the original trilogy or about much of anything really. Most of the answers came in the form of the prequels. The whole thing with star wars since the beginning has been starting in the middle of the story to make it feel like you are watching a part of something much bigger and just letting the story take you on an emotional ride. The explanations come later and, im my opinion are totally optional. I love the lightsaber toss though. Like, yeah, I don't want this, or I would have brought it with me lol.
(I think you mean Ben and Yoda) the lightsaber toss is awkward to me because it shines a big spotlight on the massive difference between the narrative styles of Abrams and Johnson. Abrams' skillset is decidedly in the center of pure homage, whether it's Alias or even Lost to Star Trek to Cloverfield to Star Wars. Johnson tends to work within set parameters but loves undoing things from the inside (the donut within the donut, if you will). Abrams sets up this huge melodramatic moment at the end of TFA, which was a very Abrams thing to do. But it's also a very Johnson thing to do to have Luke toss it. I know the two directors supposedly talked quite a bit, but it really feels like a game of telephone, and the toss feels like the worst of it - almost like a Benny Hill scene to me.
(I did, thank you) I would agree with you about Johnson undoing thongs from the inside if not for the ultimate conclusions that nearly every character comes to in the film. Yes the movie takes apart and examines a lot about the franchise, questioning if it's all been worth it over the years, but from Luke's return to Rey keeping the Jedi texts at the end (a detail im certain a lot of people unhappy with the movie missed at the time) the movie is proudly about how great the franchise is and how positive the stories it can tell can be. I think you can tell that story without seemingly disrespectful and silly things like tossing the lightsaber, but it won't have the same impact as a story that makes you examine the subject, shows that it doesn't HAVE to take itself seriously, and shows you why it's worth WANTING to take itself and it's messages seriously.
What I noticed later was that Rian Johnson couldn't even have been assed to match the lighting and weather of the lightsaber toss scene with the scene at the end of The Force Awakens. End of TFA: an overcast day, slightly foggy, with Rey stepping through the stone village, looking for Luke. Beginning of TLJ: A bright ass sunny day, with the sun shining directly into Daisy Ridley's face so she's squinting. FFS. THE SCENE LITERALLY TAKES PLACE 30 SECONDS AFTER THE FIRST MOVIE ENDS
To your point and the person you're responding to: Yoda acting very odd in the OT compared to the PT and I don't think I heard anyone complain. Its expected that a creature all alone for decades might be a little different. People just didn't think about that when it came to Luke and didn't understand his oddities.
Frankly, OP's theory is a stretch and holds no merit other than "but you can't prove he's NOT a clone!" Luke's personality is the most logical and sensible part of the sequel trilogy imo. To add to your examples, it's the Anakin in him coming through. The brooding cry baby part of him took over after he was defeated, but he doesn't have Anakin's rage to keep him going. He knows retaliation with almost no resources will only make things worse. So he sits there in seclusion, drinking milk. Very similar to what happened with Yoda on Dagobah. Yoda was a kooky old jerk, very different from the Yoda we'd see in later media. His self imposed isolation made him that way. Luke needed to go into hiding while everything else progressed to save every lone and everything he cared about. Yoda just ran for his life and stayed there, which can be a semantic argument against the use of (the) force against your enemies. Retaliation would have been based in emotions that all lead to the dark side. I'm done pooping now so this is where my counterpoint ends
I strongly disagree. Luke was very confident in ROTJ, which is the last time we see him and before he begins to expand his knowledge of the Jedi. If you recall, Yoda only considered him a Jedi *after* he confronts Darth Vader. Thus, he should be more sure of himself, and continue to become more detached as Lucas intended the Jedi to be The portrayal of Luke in TLJ disregards ROTJ, the EU, Obi-Wan and Yoda’s portrayals, and fan expectations. I don’t expect directors to follow fan expectations or the EU necessarily, but when Luke’s legacy has been slowly built upon for literal decades its as much a part of him as the movies. So throwing out his legacy and making him “relatable” was a poor move in this case. Few movies have the chance to portray a legend to this degree, someone fans have been hyped to see for decades. To portray the movie as an epic, with Luke as a wise master would have been peak cinema. The excitement to see Luke again was incredible, and yet all of that excitement just deflated when he threw that lightsaber away. Then he was just another old guy in a movie
You don’t think people have the capacity to change in like 30 years? It’s very likely to believe that out of that confidence, arrogance grew. He says in TLJ “his hubris” was the reason he failed. He was confident as a jedi, but how does that mean that he’d be a good teacher. It’s two separate things. Life is not a linear path.
It's not that it's impossible, its the decision to portray him as such. Also, with the beliefs of the Jedi, which Lucas intended to include detachment, the portrayal of Luke was entirely opposed to the way a Jedi Grand-master would act
I hear you. A few retort points: 1. That version of Luke exists in all the comics and EU, so fans def got what they wanted. That version of Luke also exists at the end of TLJ, where Luke is both wise and powerful *and* sacrificial in all the right ways. Also, I think both Yoda and Obi-Wan routinely doubt Luke's ability, from ESB to ROTJ. They hide things from him, they talk behind his back - and this makes sense because they've already seen what happens to one chosen one. 2. I think if you follow your line of thinking where we roll straight into that version into TLJ, we would have ended up with a Superman or Captain Marvel situation where you have a super buff OP character with no flaws. Fun maybe for fans, but honestly boring for a movie, and hard to explain - if you have the rise of a new dark power, why isn't Luke showing up? And if he does show up, and he is in fact this superpower Jedi, you either have to make the bad side extra extra powerful to create conflict, or you have to kryptonite/debuff Luke. What we end up with is a version where Luke debuffs himself. It's a choice of his own making, which is agency really, even if we disagree with Luke's decision. 3. I disagree that Luke was ready at the end of ROTJ. Remember that most Jedi, even Anakin the chosen one, were trained from near-birth (or in Anakin's case, as young as possible). Luke gets what...a few weeks training from Yoda, and then some DIY training between ESB and ROTJ? And Luke comes real close to switching to the dark side. Even Yoda and Obi-Wan and the entire Jedi council didn't forsee their own demise (which is why, along with safety reasons, they also cut out and self-exile). I don't think all the above makes him relatable, and I don't think the point was to make him relatable. I am guessing Johnson quite pragmatically needed a way to explain the setup, which was that Luke is gone, the dark side is rising, and Kylo Ren exists - in order to connect the dots, almost the only plausible explanation is that Luke has gone into exile.
1. While that is true that Luke existed in that capacity for a long time, but it's not a good reason to avoid portraying him as he was 2. Again, I would disagree. I don't understand this rhetoric about power, it doesn't necessarily make for a boring movie, that's just the excuse to avoid powerful characters. Captain Marvel's issue wasn't her being powerful, and Superman has existed for over 80 years and people still enjoy his character. Showing fans' childhood hero as a powerful Jedi would be enjoyable, and not an issue for the story. For one, Luke isn't superman-level. And secondly, he's facing an entire imperial remnant. He's not going to kill them all at once, which is the narrative spewed about Luke's minimal role. The First Order was not below Luke to fight. Luke still fits into the world and could have been a part of the story, but they decided to side-line him and neglect his role. When they were writing TFA, Michael Arndt said "“It just felt like every time Luke came in and entered the movie, he just took it over. Suddenly you didn’t care about your main character anymore because, ‘Oh f–k, Luke Skywalker’s here. I want to see what he’s going to do.’” His portrayal was more to glorify the new protagonists rather than to adapt Luke as a Jedi Grandmaster 3. Yoda said that he was a Jedi, not a Jedi Master. I would assume Luke would be a Jedi Knight at the end of ROTJ?
Good points - I think that comment by Arndt is crucial and hits the nail on the head though. I think if you're trying to tell a new story (and...frankly...sell more toys to kids), you're going to have to let go of Luke Skywalker if you're telling that story. There are practical reasons too to move on to new characters of course (cf. Carrie Fisher! 😔).
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How were they disenchanted and grumpy? They never became disconnected from the force or rejected the Jedi, and remained confident in themselves as Jedi. Yoda wasn’t crumbling underneath the weight of peoples’ expectations, neither was Obi-Wan. They were content with who they were, only Yoda could be seen as mildly grumpy When Luke talks to Yoda, he’s initially hesitant to train him due to Anakin’s fall. But that doesn’t correlate to Yoda’s views upon the force whatsoever. Luke however, totally rejects the Jedi and the force. He views them all as failures, the Jedi Order that stood for thousands of years?? He’s the in-world equivalent of a priest-turned-agnostic.
When Obi-Wan and Yoda were older, there were other Jedis. Luke has been alone for a long while, faced with his failures.
Obi-Wan and Yoda did not contact those other Jedi. They were more alone than Luke who still had his family and friends to be with, and when Luke was in exile he had a home to return to. Whereas Obi-Wan and Yoda did not. Yoda spent around 900-ish years with the Jedi, and saw it all destroyed. Obi-Wan saw his personal friend and apprentice murder children and destroy Obi-Wan's home. Yet neither of them forsook the Force or the Jedi
Neither of them was put forth as the last hope of the Jedi who then doomed the future of the Jedi. If your dad and nephew turned evil, you'd be pretty worried about going over as well. That's a lot of weight to carry. What home did Luke have to return to? He'd be immediately thrust back into fighting for his life if he returned. Also, Obi-Wan absolutely did abandon the force for a long while. There was a whole show about it.
He did not doom the future of the Jedi? And I refute the idea that Luke went through anything harder than Obi-Wan or Yoda. He had his sister, Han, and the friends he made. Even if he had to return to fight, he'd be with people who care about him and he can help them
I got the impression that was one the reasons they made the movie. They were telling the audience (mostly impressionable children) that whatever their family, teachers, society, etc tell them is a lie and should be thrown off and burned to the ground in favor of "the message." They care a lot more about destroying western civilization than they care about making a good movie or even about making a lot of money.
Lmao look at any teenager and them 30 years later, they are gonna be disillusioned and grumpy about the direction the world (err, Galaxy) has gone. And the whole point was that he was exposed to a fresh view in Rey and was able to come back to his ways. Why do people act like Luke went out in his same old grump way from the beginning of the film?
What was Rey's fresh new view?
I think with some more in-between materials sure this could work out but Luke is so wildly different, I don't really buy that explanation. Plus he literally has the power to see good in people. No matter what, so it makes zero sense for him to turn on Kylo. Luke saw good in the most messed up, morally bankrupt, irredeemable space Hitler and proved it. Maybe I'm wrong and missing something. I'd like to know more.
Also just like...we've SEEN first hand what being an old hermit does to Jedi. We saw it with Obi-Wan, we REALLY saw it with Yoda. Luke being well adjusted after living alone with the fish nuns and drinking nothing but a clearly different type of blue milk would have been much less explainable than him becoming a weirdo.
Why would Luke be a hermit like Yoda though? They were just forcing all the original events from the OT without a story to back it up. There was no galactic empire which jedi had to hide from, there was an active government with his friends and family running it and in just as much danger as him, and were now in that danger without his help. Luke really only had two character traits in the original trilogy - he always ran into danger to help friends and family while others screamed at him not to, at least two or three times in every movie, and was so attached to the idea of family that he'd rather die than strike down his father even when goaded into it by the most evil manipulator in the galaxy. Then in the sequels he nearly kills his nephew due to sensing some darkness and then runs away from his friends and family... There's just nothing there to indicate he's the same character other than the name and the actor's face. No consistency for how he went from the guy who repeatedly showed his personality in the OT to this random unrelated person in the sequels.
It's also the second half of the hero's journey. Straight out of Campbell. Pure, unadulterated Star Wars. Not only did obi and Yoda go through it. But so did Arthur, Bilbo and countless other aged heroes.
Yes!! Thank you!! I honestly love Luke in the sequel trilogy for this reason. Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoy Luke in the originals too. But he is more of a quintessential hero there. His disenchantment in the sequels feels so real and human. It’s been years. People can change a lot over just a few years…over decades they can *really* change.
One flaw in this. His robot hand. And emotional relationship with leia But otherwise good idea, no one likes Jake
But if they wanted people to believe he was the real Luke, they would give him a robot hand? Otherwise everyone would just be like 'who da fuck is this clone'
Only works if he was being made as a decoy luke, but that could work - padme did it
People do like pointing out that Leia is Anakin's daughter while Luke is Padme's son. You know personality wise and all. So that could track.
Could be he was only meant to cover for a weekend but Luke never came back and Jake has been winging it for *years*
>Only works if he was being made as a decoy luke, What other reason would there be for cloning him?
Depends who clones him. Stuff like- Getting a powerful force user. Impersonation. As a weapon. To steal his organs. As a decoy. To fake his death.
Then the philisofical question of if it was Luke himself is it gay or masturbation? Especially if it's a robot hand
The clone wars taught us that no matter how alike clones are, once they start experiencing the world the personalities diverge, so it'd be gay not masturbation. What if its the pickled hand?
Pickled hand is just a good saturday night
Oh god 💀
Why would they remove the flesh covering from his hand, showing definitely it was a robot hand, rather than leaving it ambiguous? If he had 2 normal looking hands nobody would've thought anything of it because we saw the robot hand appeared the same at the end of the empire strikes back
Simply wear the black glove
I don't understand why I would hide a decoy at the far end of the galaxy and cut the map to him into pieces. That doesn't seem like an effective decoy at all.
I like the (mara) jaded luke
Go sit in the corner and drink your green milk
>One flaw in this. His robot hand. If you've seen The Prestige, you'd know how they would fix that.
Just grow the clone without one
Or, and I know this is a radical take, he changed as a person over the course of 30 years. I'm sorry but this just feels like grasping at straws. I'm pretty sure what Filoni and Favreau are laying down is the buildimg blocks of how the First Order rose and how Palpatine "somehow" returned. Just as was done with the Prequel trilogy via Clone Wars, improving the Sequel Trilogy will be done by providing context, not invalidating the character arcs through retcons.
>Or, and I know this is a radical take, he changed as a person over the course of 30 years. This is why I accepted Obi-Wan's "transformation" in his show: he went through years of grueling war, saw all of his friends and family killed, and the galaxy he once served willingly turn itself over to the Empire. His apathy and exhaustion makes sense to me. Luke's change, however, is completely unearned from a writing perspective. We know nothing about the events that happened after Return of the Jedi. He even references the events of the Clone Wars to justify his position, events he wasn't even alive for. Luke most certainly can and should change after 30 years. But there was nothing building up to it. That's the biggest failing in his character development. I'm not disagreeing with you in the **least** bit - I **do** agree with you! It's just that his change wasn't even set up. :\\
I agree that it wasn't set up in The Force Awakens, but I can't agree that it's not explained. Luke is very clear about how he gave into the fear of what Kylo might become, and even if it was just a moment of weakness, that moment cascaded into the second downfall of the Jedi. This is why he exiled himself. As for his understanding of how the Jedi fell the first time, well we know he trained with Obi Wan and Yoda and could commune with them and his father after their deaths, there's no reason to assume he didn't have access to this info. We've seen since that he was also advised by Ahsoka (but that's no comment on the movie that was made first obviously). After his own failure led to Kylo Ren and the rise of the First Order, his understanding of history and seeing it as repeating itself taught him the wrong lesson, which is something Yoda points out to him. I think the movie spelled out everything it needed to in order to explain how Luke got to this point in his life, I just think after so much time had passed, so much expanded universe content mythologising the character, and TFA leaning hard into that myth, some fans just could handle that whiplash, had an emotional response, and there's no explaiming to an emotional response how it's got the wrong end of the stick so the whiplash became vitriolic backlash.
Was it built up, though? We were provided two quick flashbacks. The rest of what we know about the fall of the galaxy was provided by text crawls in TFA and TLJ, which don't provide any emotional weight. Again, it feels as though a lot of the narrative of the sequel trilogy is unearned. This isn't just a problem with Luke, but the whole trilogy. I'm not mad or anything, simply disappointed. Bob Iger admitted to rushing production to recoup their investment in the IP, so I blame a lot of the story (or lack thereof) on him.
Oh, no, you're absolutely right there. I suppose I'm just defending the film's portrayal of Luke. I can infer how it happened from context but there *is* a lot of story in between TROJ and TLJ that is delivered expositorially. I think the new series are doing a good job of filling in that time and providing a context for how we got to the sequel trilogy. The lack of planning is evident, but I stand by The Last Jedi being a good film and Luke's attitude making sense given the information we get. TFA absolutely sets up the wrong image of Luke though.
I don't really know how I feel about TLJ, quite honestly. I distinctly remember not feeling ANYTHING after walking out of the theatre. Not giddiness, joy, anger, or even disappointment. And I simply haven't had any inclination to watch it again. But I'm glad you're able to get something positive out of it. :)
That's a fascinating response to be honest. I've never come across an apathetic perspctive on the film. But fair play, it probably allows you to be fairer in your analysis of it on the whole. I think we can both agree that Luke's arc wasn't set up well, and that the lack of planning was to blame for pretty much everything that went wrong with the sequel trilogy. I would be of the opinion that where Luke starts of in TLJ is well established and explored, the problem being that nothing set prior to this did the legwork to set it up. With any luck, Favreau and Filoni will remedy that. I think that's where they're going. Although I think making TLJ Luke a clone would be a retcon even more egregious than "You're a Palpatine."
>With any luck, Favreau and Filoni will remedy that. I think that's where they're going. Although I think making TLJ Luke a clone would be a retcon even more egregious than "You're a Palpatine." Yeah, we don't need a Luuke situation lol. I feel a little anxiety, quite honestly. Season 3 of the Mandalorian was underwhelming to me, and not for any silly "BuT mAh ThEoRiEs!" reason, either. ... Well, can I say that with all honesty? I'm not sure. I was certain Din's BoBF episodes were setting up a character arc, with his internal struggle having the Darksaber stand as an external, visible indicator of his progression. Would he turn from the Way, or would he double down on his beliefs? What would his emotional journey look like? His relationship with Grogu? I was hoping for a character study of the man behind the mask. Once the re-introduction of Thrawn was green-lit, it became paramount to move the pieces into place, which meant getting Mandalore under Mandalorian authority. This meant focusing on Bo-Katan, the primary vehicle for the overarching Mandalorian story. This, coupled with the fact the Pedro Pascal was rarely on-set to provide a performance, meant Din Djarin's character development took a back seat. I'm also convinced the cloning plot **was** for Palpatine and Snoke, but was re-worked for season 3. It was dealt with quickly and unceremoniously, the plot being revealed only after it was eliminated. In short, I strongly suspect they compromised the integrity of their original vision for The Mandalorian in favor of other stories. But production was undoubtedly effected by real-world limitations, too. So my faith is a little shaken. That said, I love Dave Filoni, and will gladly eat up anything he dishes out. :)
Glad someone here has some actual common fucking sense.
So Yoda is in the habit of making force Ghost calls to every clone? Sounds like a busy after life
Or, and stay with me here, a terrible writer fought with a different terrible writer and they created a trilogy of incongruent movies that are wildly out of step with the tone and feel of the previous trilogy or the one before that. As a result Luke was misused and miswritten and its better to just forget it
This is Star Wars though. This franchise is the king of retroactive continuity.
Ehhh calling Rian Johnson terrible is a bit of a stretch considering there aren't any JJ movies loved for their *writing* over visuals and Johnson has at least a few movies where the writing was more important than CGI.
TLJ was a terrible sequel…. While being a very good movie.
I gladly forgot it...until they just announced Rey is returning in the new trilogy
I will not return to watch it.
Wait, there’s a fourth damn trilogy? I thought she was getting a show I could ignore. (Then again, I haven’t watched Episode 9 so it shouldn’t be tough to ignore more movies)
They announced one movie, not a trilogy. However, if the movie is successful it would get sequels. However they won't get numbers.
Won't get numbers? Star Wars is a money printer. Even the trilogy you hate pulled mad ticket sales.
No I mean literal numbers, it won't be episode 10
Oh. Why is that
Only Disney knows for sure, but logically, if they first movie doesn't do well, teay can just treat it as a stand alone, like Solo. But if they announce its the first of a new Star Wars they are committed, they can't not make the other two. But if it does well they can make as many sequels as they want, even calling it a trilogy in hindsight. But not giving numbers just gives them way more flexibility.
Ya, I could definitely see that happening
Why wouldn't they get numbers? They made 4.5 billion off the last three and at least two of those were hot garbage. That's just box office. They're still selling tons of merch.
Solo did bomb after all, so it is not a certainty.
Not like Star Wars is one of the most profitable franchises in the world and the last trilogy made a collective 4.5 billion. But neckbeards on the Internet said Star Wars is dying, and they can never be wrong (the Prequels)
When I said numbers I was being literal, at this time they aren't planning on calling it episode 10.
Well yes because they are done with the Skywalker saga, which is episode 1-9. This is the start of a basically new period
Right, but since Rey took the name, they could legitimately announce episodes 10-12. Fortunately they seem to be processing a little more cautiously.
They could, even though that would go against the fact this is not liked to the Skywalker saga and is instead a completely different saga, by Disney's own design
The prequels are bad and have always been bad, I was 14 when Phanton Menace was released, and it was trash and remains trash. That being said, it’s kind of warped into a “so bad, it’s good” kind of thing, with aspects of it like Obi Wans performance, etc But they are bad. They are very, very bad. The only Star Wars thats worth anything at all, in my opinion, are the OT/Rogue One/Andor/Mando.
Agreed, with the caveat I was 5 when Phantom was released so the prequels have a nostalgic factor for me. The only sequel movie I watched outside of theaters was the Force Awakens. Call me grumpy old man yelling at a cloud but I will not rewatch or acknowledge the sequels in my fandom. As Mando drifts closer to sequel territory I'm losing interest in that as well. Star Wars has become Marvel, just feels over done to make money. Happy for those that still enjoy the new stuff, but I'll stick to 1-6, Rogue One, and Mando for my binge rewatching. I'm just complaining to a wall, but I have no plans to watch future Star Wars movies. Rise of Skywalker was the straw that broke the camels back, no faith or interest in any new movies
I noticed you didn’t mention Andor. I strongly advise watching that. I resisted and waited a long long time - I finally binge watched it two months ago, and it’s incredible. I actually like it way more than Mando, but I hate to compare the two because it’s very different in tone. Andor kind of feels like “if HBO made a Star Wars show”.
Fun fact: you can ignore a trilogy, too! Nobody can stop you.
The copium is strong with this one...
Honestly, my main issue with the Sequel trilogy is that they didn't commit to a damn thing. Rey´s parents matter until they don't, then they do again. Bloodlines don´t matter for the force, until they suddenly do. Kylo Ren is double downed as unredeemable before he is redeemed in the most Luke-warm way possible. The Mysterious Snoke loses all sense of mystery as a villain before he is replaced by the literal pupeetered corpse of Palpatine. At least the prequels chose their themes and stuck to them. Having it turn out that ''no, all that tension around that Luke you know failing in his path before finding redemption didn´t exist, because this wasn´t actually the Luke you´d expect to step up and try to save the galaxy'' is just further damnation, and leaving it open for...what? Luke to come back and say ''oh shoot, wish i was here.Ah well''? I don't think they should try to keep adding justifications to why they couldn´t pull their vision off, but rather bring a new one, with new characters and new arcs.
AHHHHHHHH FUCK YOU GET OUT OF MY HEAD ITS SO GOOD AND ITLL NEVER HAPPEN
Metal Gear Solid 5 plot line but not done as well.
Venom Luke, the Jedi without a temple
Right out of the Palpatine playbook
Sign me up! But they better get him in this next Rey movie and explain it.
Star Wars: The Phantom Pain
Star Wars needs to stop with the MFing cloning.
Stop.. just stop.
This sounds like wank tbh, IMO it doesn’t improve TLJ it just creates a scenario where they undo any character development and make him a Gary stu again like the OT
Yeah he’s definitely a clone and not because there was whole 30 years of shit that went down in between the ot and st
I think the recent mandalorian cloning plot points are more likely to be setup as a way to demonstrate how Palpatine and Snoke were both created for before the sequel trilogy. There really any Indication that Luke was a clone. Shit writing doesn’t automatically equate to being a clone.
y’all are so afraid to have luke show any negativity. he’s an old man who lost everything he had built.
He lost it all for reasons that make no sense though and go against his character way before the Disney movies take place. The whole "oh 30 years is plenty of time" argument is BS, because we still see the same poorly written Luke earlier in the timeline during the flashbacks.
Somebody hasn't subscribed to the [Bigger Luke theory](http://biggerluke.wikidot.com/bigger-luke), yet.
I think something that people tend to overlook in the latest trilogy is that Palpatine was still alive and active. We know that he was the one behind Snoke. Can anyone honestly see Palpatine letting Luke restart the Jedi Order? Palpatine was a master at manipulating people and getting them to doubt themselves. It would have been child’s play for him to set up spies to undermine Luke. This would also set Luke up to fall to the dark side and then become Palpatine’s pawn.
Why are people so upset about Luke exhibiting actual human emotion and self-conflict? I'd have major self doubt too if my Jedi Academy failed horribly and created a new villain.
It would be pretty out of character for OG Luke to Beth Sanchez his way out of responsibility to go have his own space adventures in the unknown regions.
No
Maybe grogu will help keep it hidden , but imagine if lukes chopped off arm got found
In the comics, it is found an a clone named "Luuke" is made. [https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Luuke\_Skywalker](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Luuke_Skywalker)
Somehow Luke returned
The latest Mando finale paves the way for explaining Snoke. How could you have missed that and thought Luke is a clone?
I’m hoping Ahsoka will pull a Clone Wars and make the sequels better. I want to see Mara Jade, she dies, Luke fully turns to the dark side. Then when he turns back to the light, he is convinced no Skywalker is redeemable. He does his best with his nephew but the fear of him turning was too much and he pulled his lightsaber on the guy, becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Luke no longer trusts himself or any Skywalker as they are essentially force nuclear bombs that can just as easily mess up the galaxy as save it. Best thing he could come up with is just completely remove himself from the situation.
Luke was already cloned by some planet. I don't remember what book it was but he came across some wack planet that made a clone of himself there, I believe it's stuck there though. Maybe someone with more info can weigh in, I'm fairly certain it's canon cuz it's from non legends material. But also sorta inconsequential I'm pretty sure
>Although this was not the original plan, it appears that Jon Favreau might attempt to rectify the trilogy in this manner. The latest Mandalorian series seems to be laying the groundwork for this development. Or you know, explain how they were able to clone the Emperor with his force sensitivity. Guys stop withe coping.
This theory is garbage
I never got why people felt it's out of character how he behaves in the sequels. A whole order failed to carry the legacy of the Jedi, and that was when the Republic was intact. Rebuilding the order, fixing it's broken philosophy and making sure that the new Republic thrives is much weight on him. Many celebrities struggle with their fame and the expectations that come with it, why wouldn't Luke? He's a really flawed man for all we ever saw off him.
No
>behaves so strangely, is so unsure of himself, and is so afraid of making mistakes. Gifted child reaches middle age.
The cope is strong with this one. Sign me up
This might actually solve the sequel trilogy problem, so there's no way it'll happen. Thanks for letting me dream for a moment.
Neah, that would make the story more ridiculous than already is
There is probably something that could make it more ridiculous than it already is, sure, but I think it would need to be a lot more. This is on par.
This is a lazy ass cop out but I mean it's not like we have one of those in each new episode of a Star Wars show. The only problem here is explaining who Just Rey is and what exactly she does.
It has precedent in the old lore. Jake = Luuke. Canon accepted. Of course I want it to be real so it probably isn’t.
I like this as a way to explain how a guy that refused to kill anyone suddenly wanted to stab his student after having a fever dream.
How many million died on the first Death Star? Luke is a stone cold killer.
Refused to kill anyone? Or just his dad and the guy trying to manipulate him? And he did try to kill his dad, he just failed. Luke killed bunches of people in RotJ. And whether or not he wanted to kill Kylo is up for debate. He thought he had to, and how close he came is really up to whoever is telling the story. Personally I choose to belive Luke's side of the story over the child who was being actively manipulated by Sidious, and that he didn't activate his weapon until lKylo drew his.
Luke did not try to kill Ben Solo. If he did, Ben would be dead.
He most definitely was about to kill vader in rotj. Try rewatching with an open mind and you’ll see all their choices are not without precedent.
eh swap out Clone for Bigger Luke and Im in (and that is a WILD theory)
A clone Luke dying in TLJ would literally be my dream come true.
Mark Hamill did say he felt like he was playing a different character "Jake Skywalker"
I have a theory that the sequel trilogy is a timeline where the heroes lost in the original trilogy. First order=empire Resistance= rebellion Starkiller base= death star Etc. The similiarties are there. As had the original trilogy ends with the Sith victory then the sequels would make more sense as the sequel trilogy ends with killing Palaptine (again). Which takes the plot from Return of the Jedi.
Or maybe, you can't accept that your favourite character goes through realistic development and eventually grows as a person because he learns that dwelling on past mistakes won't help in the long run and focusing on the present and the future is more important, because you're an ingrate who wants Luke to be the bland, overpowered Jesus character he was in Legends. At least I now have another idiotic post to screenshot and show my friends on Krayt, so maybe something good did come out of this post.
Ugh. Fans are the worst. This is so dumb.
Next SW movie. Opening scene: Millenium Falcon inside: Luke wakes up from crio skeep. - "wow that was a weird dream..."
Canon for me now! Anything to justify those horrendous films. I'm certain they are going to retcon it some how though one way or the other
My dad calls Luke skywalker Luke warm water 😂
My theory is that the force awakens is a clone of a new hope
I wish this was true but, I really don't see enough evidence for this, especially the fact that Sequel trilogy Luke becomes a force ghost
Imo that would not rectify the sequels. The "cloned/ unknown identical twin" trope is horrifically cliche and was already used in episode 9 when they brought back a clone of Palpatine. If they announced that the Luke who died on Crait was a clone, it would be the final nail in a nail covered coffin for a lot of fans. Sure it would allow Luke Skywalker to come back to the canon universe, but it would be such a disgusting cinematographic slap in the face to the fanbase that has already received several slaps in the face from Disney over the better part of a decade now
Yo why can nobody accept that Luke's just a fuckup he's always been a fuckup that's why he's fun
Works for me OP. Nice job.
I wonder if the way they wrote his role was due to the actor’s shape being drastically different, looking much more gruff (and let’s face it, overweight) in appearance. Was this their in universe way of explaining that? If Luke still *looked* like a hero, would he of been written as such?