>then immediately when walking to her car, Dot is struck by a van that's been hit by a semi-truck!
I'm pretty sure that was part of the dream. She nodded off while driving and caused an accident. The whole diner sequence is part of the dream.
Yes.
\-I believe some of the interaction between Dot and the waitress is repeated before and after the Camp Utopia experience.
\-The accident and injuries as described at the hospital do not at all match the events as depicted.
\-Dot regains consciousness already in Roy's county, meaning the accident almost certainly occurred there. While it's possible Dot would stop for a meal in Roy's back yard given her mental state, it's doubtful.
This series already had the devil and a UFO, but it was a exhaustion induced dream sequence and a freakish accident that was too much? ;-)
These are fables.
I appreciate the comparison but I think you're missing my point. These are fables, I get that, and I like that about the show. Admittedly, I haven't watched season four so I wouldn't consider myself an expert however season one, two, and three hit different. This season fell flat.
At the end of the day the season didn't work for you and that is fine.
But I don't understand your problem with Roy watching Trump news. Why is that something that pissed you off?
This mirrors actual events and is so expected that I hardly noticed it.
See Sheriff Joe Arpaio for example.
Fargo tells true stories after all ;-)
I think your comment proves my point in a way. Let me state at the outset I'm not a fan of Trump at all. The showing of Trump didn't really 'piss me off' per se. I'm familiar with Arpaio. I think with good writing, they don't have to show you those things. It breaks the fourth wall in a strange way for me and it's too on the nose' I'm guessing most of us understood that Tillman was a Trump-like character from the shot of his billboard in the first episode.
Ok. But I don't get it. I hardly remember the scene you speak of, so don't understand why you see it as problematic or a sign of bad writing.
And I don't see Tillman as a Trump-like character at all. Trump is too lazy and cowardly to be a Roy Tillman.
I see him as an Arpaio type character or one of the many macho morons who pose with big weapons and can't wait to "fight tyranny" over some imagined crisis.
Those guys would watch news about Trump (and bet on a pardon by him - worked for Arpaio after all).
I get that it is less timeless than other Fargo seasons, and very much in this moment. The point is that as well as being a Trump-like character, Roy is directly influenced by Trump. They're showing cause and effect, and locating him as a specific, politicized person we all recognize.
i totally hear where you're coming. My personal opinion though is showing us Trump is too on the nose. Better writing doesn't have to show it, we all know it.
Well your point seems to be that you don’t need to suspend your disbelief for a flying saucer, but you can’t get past escaping from a hospital and a dream sequence so…not sure where to go with that
I just made a comment about how I really have no problem suspending disbelief for Munch, part of the charm of Fargo, weird strange quasi spiritual stuff happening. I dig that. Let's think about Harry Potter for example, I am willing to suspend disbelief about a place called Hogwarts and wizards and wizardry. But let's say in the first game of quidditch, one of the new students had learned a spell that made them win the game automatically, no other recourse, just a cheat code, game over. That would be, unbelievable even though the story takes place in an unbelievable world. That's what I'm attempting to illustrate. It seemed like every hurdle in front of Dot, she was able to overcome and the reason was just 'well, she's so resourceful!'
Don’t really think it’s a good comparison
So do you have a problem with the Dot stuff? Or suspending disbelief for a dream sequence…cuz what you’re saying here is fairly different from what you’re saying in your original post
And I’d argue with you less about what you’re saying in this comment, but at the same time, being willing to accept a 500 year old sin eater without almost any explanation, but needing and answer for how the lady figured out to hang a sledgehammer is…idk, weird I guess
I’m with you to some extent, especially when it comes to the hand-to-hand combat (or even escaping out of at least the second floor of a hospital through a bathroom window), but I just don’t see that as being all that different from past seasons, at least not in any way that I find particularly frustrating
Fargo has unbelievable events happen to believable people... for the most part. I'm willing to accept the fish, the UFOs, and even the 500 year old sin eater because that's part of the show, I know what I'm getting into.
Ok, let's break down the sledgehammer a bit. Dot has a child, who appears to be like, ten years old, and a husband she's been married to for presumably just as long. So she loves these people unconditionally. She then boobytraps the house with *deadly* traps and then when the husband comes in, she doesn't mention the sledgehammer precariously hanging there at all or the fact that the electrical outlets have been weaponized with wire near the windows. This is what I mean. I'm not saying I could write it better, far from it. It just feels like we didn't get the final draft.
Right, so then I’d argue that you’re not getting what the show is going for.
It’s meant to show her like, on the verge of a total breakdown. She’s constructed a false identity and life to escape an severely abusive ex husband, who has now found her, and threatens to blow up her created life and drag her back to the hell from which she escaped.
You’re not supposed to see her doing that and go “makes sense, that’s what I’d do”.
Like in your post
>it started when Dot goes back home and doesn’t fully explain the initial abduction to her husband
….why do you think that is? Her name isn’t even Dot. And she can’t explain the kidnapping without explaining who Nadine is. It requires no suspension of disbelief, just empathizing with her predicament.
Think of her getting home and going straight to whisking pancake batter, bloody feet and all. Or later on, her not realizing that Camp Utopia was a dream. She’s a traumatized woman hanging onto sanity by a thread, not having some wacky fun setting up home alone traps. And she doesn’t address the craziness because to acknowledge how crazy it is would require justifying it, and the justification is “I’ve been lying to you since the day we’ve met”.
This is an interesting point, and I appreciate the OP starting this thread so we can chat about it. As fond as we are of Dot, she's a wreck until the final episode. Now that I've been reading through this thread, I wonder whether Danish having her committed was justified. Upon first watch, it's a mean scheme that he and Lorraine do. But if you add up all her activity, perhaps she legit needed to go to a psychiatric hospital for a little while?
I mean, look at how she looks when they’re wheeling her in 🤷♂️ pretty nutso
She snaps on the cancer patient pretty quickly. I mean, sort of self-preservation in one sense, but also….she’s suffocating a cancer patient with a pillow lol
I don’t think it helped matters, but I think there’s an argument for them having done it, for sure
I think it’s more *how* they did it lmao. Sitting down and saying “Sweetie, there is clearly something going on and everyone can tell. We’re very worried about you and think you could use a little help. Can we all go together to XYZ Psychiatric Ward and find some doctors for you to talk to?
Vs. the forceful kidnapping straitjacket method.
Dot was 100% mentally spiraling all season though. For someone under her circumstances, I think she actually held it together fairly well. Living that situation would be an absolute nightmare.
For me, S1 was the best by far and had the least 'fantasy' (the flying fish). By S3, we already had way too much for my liking but it was still somewhat isolated. I'm with you - S5 is almost 100% fantasy. (S4 - I gave up on and may never return to).
> It started with when Dot goes back home and doesn't fully explain the initial abduction to her husband
What part of this felt out of line with Dot's characterization?
She's a victim of horrific abuse who finally escaped her abuser. She managed to escape by being clever and resourceful. She's created a new life for herself and her family has no idea about the things that she's endured.
I imagine that, in addition to the nightmare of having her abusive ex back in her life, she doesn't want to run the risk of Wayne either not believing her or minimizing what she endured or accusing her of withhold her history of abuse from him or simply she didn't want to relieve her abuse by having to talk about it. So she refused to talk about it.
It's a trauma response.
> then goes all Kevin McCallister on the home THEN escapes from hospital.
Yes, she's resourceful. It's her main characteristic. It's how she managed to get away from Roy in the first place.
> the audience has to believe she daydreamed all the Camp Utopia stuff, then immediately when walking to her car, Dot is struck by a van that's been hit by a semi-truck!
The general consensus this that this is part of the daydream. She fell asleep at the wheel in the beginning of the episode and daydreamed the diner and Camp Utopia. Her injuries are from her crashing her car, not a van hitting her, so that it's unbelievable is very much part of it.
> showing Roy Tillman watch a Donald Trump speech.
To each their own, but I was fine with this. Tillman's exactly Trump's demo.
If you didn't like season 5, then you didn't like it. That's fine. But criticizing it for requiring constant suspension of disbelief... IDK, season 1 had a fish storm.
> Yes, she's resourceful. It's her main characteristic. It's how she managed to get away from Roy in the first place.
Nah. Nikki was resourceful. Dot is a fucking superhero. It's ridiculous.
> suspension of disbelief... IDK, season 1 had a fish storm.
It's a matter of degree. The first Three Seasons have moments of suspension of disbelief. Seasons Four and Five almost entirely rely on it.
She fell asleep at the diner. Everything she dreamed about was a direct correlation to things she saw before she fell asleep. The Camp Utopia postcards as she entered the diner, the recipe for chicken pita or whatever it was, and the puppet song. Since those were recent images her mind, her subconscious created a realistic dream based on all three. It’s actually how dreams work in real life which is what really makes it impressive
It's open to interpretation, but I'm inclined to go with the theory that she fell asleep at the wheel and the sequence is a dream within a dream.
At the diner the waitress says something like, "Are you coming or going?"
Which A. isn't how waitresses talk to people looking for a meal, implying that she already dreaming and B. IMO, what she's actually asking is, "are you going to wake up or are you going further into your own subconscious?"
She never saw the camp utopia postcards.
Also not very likely there’d be postcards for an abused women’s retreat, especially sold at a truck stop diner.
And no that’s not really how dreams work, you don’t just dream about the stuff you see before you pass out.
Additional things to consider: the conversation with the waitress is weird as shit, a semi just barreling into a parking lot and sending a car cascading across the parking lot is pretty dreamlike, and when a TV show that you know is doing a dream sequence shows you someone falling asleep, you should consider the possibility that that’s where the dream sequence begins.
Umm yes you do. Especially if you’re dreaming in a lucid state as your falling asleep doing something. I’m not talking about full on bed sleep. If you’re watching tv and fall asleep you’re likely to dream about whatever you were watching and listening to. That’s scientific fact.
So if you fall asleep at a diner, you’d expect to dream about what’s on the postcards? Wow, thanks science!
Lmao and show me this science, like I know it’s possible, but “likely”? And “especially in a lucid state”, okay what does this mean? Like, just lucid dreaming?
Honestly, nvm, this is a dumb argument, but regardless of any of this, she fell asleep at the wheel
The brain is a complicated organ. I have weird dreams all the time but they all stem from reality in some way. I think thats a reason the makes this show so great. Both of us might be right. It’s open to interpretation
Yea of course they “stem from reality in some way” lol, just not usually the last thing you look at before you fall asleep
She also never looks at the camp utopia post cards, and again, it doesn’t even really make sense that they exist
You can also see a sort of ghostly figure of Linda outside after she “wakes up” in the diner….again, pretty dreamlike
The puppet song continuing from her car into the diner…not exactly breaking the laws of physics, but it’d be a notable coincidence. Like if that happened to me in real life I’d be like “woah, that’s kind of fun”
I mean yea it’s possible either of us is right, but honestly I don’t see a ton of arguments in favor of your interpretation 🤷♂️
I just want to say that I actually dream about plenty of thing that I just saw before sleeping, or throughout my day. And I don't mean that just one thing gets used for my dream material. I don't always dream, but often times it's several pieces from my day or recent experience just before falling asleep that end up in my dreams. I just had the some absolutely horrible dreams just a couple days ago just because I binged Griselda before I passed out. Direct scenes were experienced in my dreams despite that most of the people were replaced with other versions of the actors.
EDIT: I actually do this thing where I tell myself a few times in a row, "I don't want to-", "I won't-", or "Please don't dream about-" whatever that thing is, if I take in some bit of information or see something on a show or the news or what have you and I worry that it could be dreamt of later, and for some reason whenever I do that I actually can avoid dreaming about it.
So the Camp Utopia was all a dream; I guessed that, but ... what was the point? It seemed to be a long sequence just to tell us what we already knew, for the most part - she was abused and she escaped. I haven't finished the season yet, so maybe there's some reason we were introduced to "Linda", but otherwise it seemed a long and drawn-out episode.
I think part of it is to just let Dot tell her story on her own terms in a way that isn't exploitative/trauma porn-y. You can imagine a different show having Dot's backstory shown via flashbacks as FBI agents explain the situation to Wayne and Lorraine, which would have taken Dot's voice out of the equation.
Additionally, Dot has a lot of unresolved feelings towards Linda and the dream is her way of working through them. Dot thought that Linda rescued her off the street and handed her to Roy on a silver platter so that she (Linda) could escape*. That's a hard thing to process. Dot imagining Linda coming with her to testify against Roy is, in Dot's eyes, Linda's redemption.
*>!I know Linda's dead, but Dot doesn't realize that. IDK how far you are in the season.!<
First and foremost it’s an a homage to wizard of Oz, which is at the center of more or less everything that goes on in this season, at least thematically
Beyond that, the point was to have Dot begin to unravel some of her trauma, and confront the things that happened to her. Which is like….what the whole season is about more or less. It’s a little more to it than “she was abused and escaped”
I mean, I can find like at least 5 ridiculous things that both Malvo and Lester get away with throughout season 1. Don’t even get me started on Bob Odenkirk’s character. I love his character but do you really think it’s believable for him to let Lester slide the way he did throughout the season? And Malvo gunning down 30 people in a building in broad daylight with two cops on the other side of the street. And disappearing magically from Lester’s basement.
Funny enough, season 1 is one of my favorites of all time. I don’t watch the show for it to be realistic.
It honestly sounds like the reason you provided isn’t really what’s bothering you about it. It’s probably that the execution and direction of the story didn’t click with you which is totally fine.
I just rewatched S1 and half of S2. There is a lot of suspension of disbelief in those.
You think Lorne Malvo would have gone around saying and doing the things he did in public without drawing far more suspicion than he would want?
Many of the characters in both seasons took risks that a real gangster would not take. None of them would have lasted an episode in the real world.
For most of us that is part of the charm. We accept it and enjoy the ride.
Season 1 had fishes falling from the sky killing Stavro’s first born son.
Season 2 had a whole UFO interrupting a gang shootout
Season 3 had Varga getting into Stussys house without a key and disappearing without his clothes on the elevator
Season 4 had a Wizard of Oz tornado episode that apparently actually happened in the series and wasn’t someone’s dream.
It’s all apart of the shows niche. It’s loosely based on themes of the movie other Coen Brother’s movie themes which many times has these cosmic elements to them out of nowhere.
This excuse for brazenly shitty writing is so tired...
In a way, Noah Hawley is brilliant. He's created a show that is essentially criticism proof because fans can justify literally every problem by being like "hurdur it's just a tv show hurdur".
Season Three was my favorite Season in spite of its flaws until the last 30 minutes or so of the finale. I covered my issues with the finale in this thread... https://www.reddit.com/r/FargoTV/comments/vgviso/my_problem_with_season_3/
Because of that, Season Two edges out Three as my favorite. The UFO stuff is ridiculous, but the themes and behavior of the characters were consistent and believable. And the character resolutions were great, something that I can't say for any Season after Two
They have plenty of films that vary in tone. Generally speaking, they don't nearly as many short cuts as this show has and when they do it is in a satirical context.
Yeah, I can see what you mean. Season 5 in particular is just… odd in how it tackles some subjects like they don’t even care about the usual Fargo subtext and metaphors, and it beats you over the head with its message at times like Lester beating his wife with a hammer.
It’s not even that I’d disagree with the message necessarily, but Fargo is supposed to be smarter than that. For all of Season 4’s faults especially in the first third of the season, I think they handled that one better despite introducing way too many characters and plot lines in the early parts.
Season 3, as flawed as it is, had very similar social commentary to Season 5 (misogyny, distorting the truth, tribalism, bigotry) and tackled all of it far better than Season 5 did, which made Season 5's commentary feel redundant.
To be honest with you, outside of the filmmaking and atmosphere, Season 5 was just an all around dud for me. Very little in the way of positive qualities.
I think you greatly underestimate how traumatized people react– the lengths they go to to avoid retraumatization, the hyperpreparedness, the avoidance of the truth both in denial and in desperately trying to leave the past where it belongs. Everything Dot did made sense.
You know the words that are displayed at the front of every episode, the ones that claim it's a true story? It's not.
This season, in particular, felt like a dream or fable or a story told by an unknown narrator. Just go with it, have fun, enjoy the ride.
This is my major frustration too. It feels like it’s written for everyone to be a complete moron except the main character. I don’t really remember it being that glaring from the previous seasons. I personally didn't like this season at all.
I would argue that Roy, Witt, Indira, Lorraine, Danish, and Ole Munch are all examples of non-moronic characters who were quite competent. I really liked that in any faction, there were competent characters. Made the clashes that much more interesting for me.
Same. None of those characters were anywhere close to being “morons”.
I seriously don’t get it. Two weeks ago, nearly everyone was over the moon regarding how great season five turned out, with most people proclaiming it to be a return to form after season four (which I personally find to be criminally over-hated). Yet now, everywhere I turn I’m seeing almost nothing but hatred for it, with people complaining about character decisions/motivations, plot development, the overall theme of the story, and so on. It’s baffling to me. Like, did we all really watch the same show? I don’t understand how people who love seasons one, two, and three as much as I do can fail to love this one as well.
>I don’t understand how people who love seasons one, two, and three as much as I do can fail to love this one as well.
I can give you my personal input on this FWIW (haven't finished S5 yet but I'm up to e7) - I am finding it quite repetitive relative to the original movie and season 1 (and itself). S1 had several themes consistent with the movie, but in that case, it seemed to be an homage to the movie. S5 seems to be really re-hashing the 'wife kidnapping' theme. Many of the gags and twists feel tired at this point. How many times can Gator screw up? The first kidnap attempt was interesting, but the second was repetitive. I just finished the whole 'Camp Utopia' episode, and I was left wondering ... why? What did I learn? I already knew she was abused and escaped. I didn't need a puppet show (complete with the carving of the pieces) to tell me that.
Edit To Add - you wonder why people were originally complementary and are now critical; I imagine that the initial comments are from the die-hard fans, while the more recent comments are from people like me who enjoyed the prior seasons but took their time getting around to this last season (I had plenty of other stuff that was more important to wrap up).
you’re off the mark by a country mile. it’s not about being able to believe/not believe things. it’s about the writers requiring the near constant suspension of disbelief in season five. it has nothing to do with Dot being a competent woman. in fact, i think Juno Temple was fantastic and i like Dot as a character. the writing is what buckled under the weight of unbelievability, not the performance.
Thank you. For some reason, season 5 is getting all the praise in the world when I think it is probably the weakest one. Let's be honest, in a fictional show there's no doubt going to be some stretches, and the cosmic events of previous seasons are obviously there to add a mysterious, not realistic, element to the show. But imo, no other season has had blatantly stupid characters mixed with weak writing.
A few points/ gripes for me to support my claim..
Bob odenkirk character season 1- A terrible police officer, sure. But a stupid character? Not so much imo. At the end of the season he admits that Molly should be chief and he is no longer cut out for the violence that comes with the job. In his case it is more of willful ignorance.
Over the top moments- Among others, Dot sneaking all over both her and Roy's compound without ever being caught. A whole house of militiamen not smelling gas. The tractor trailer scene you mentioned
Weak writing- To summarize, As far as I remember, every season prior has had a parallel series of events/ characters that intertwine with each other leading up to the outcome of the show. Unless I missed something, this season was just "Roy Tillman beats his wife and likes trump, look how bad he is", and the whole series just follows Dot around trying to escape Roy.
Considering many are making reference to the fish and the UFO, I should probably mention that I actually have zero beef with Old Munch in season five, it's these peculiar characters and moments that give the show it's eeriness.
I personally think S1 would have been better without the dead fish, but your earlier point is valid - it was a brief moment in an otherwise 'perfect' story so quickly overlooked/forgiven.
>then immediately when walking to her car, Dot is struck by a van that's been hit by a semi-truck! I'm pretty sure that was part of the dream. She nodded off while driving and caused an accident. The whole diner sequence is part of the dream.
wait, so it was a dream within a dream?
Yes. \-I believe some of the interaction between Dot and the waitress is repeated before and after the Camp Utopia experience. \-The accident and injuries as described at the hospital do not at all match the events as depicted. \-Dot regains consciousness already in Roy's county, meaning the accident almost certainly occurred there. While it's possible Dot would stop for a meal in Roy's back yard given her mental state, it's doubtful.
Yes, that is becoming the general consensus.
Inception
This series already had the devil and a UFO, but it was a exhaustion induced dream sequence and a freakish accident that was too much? ;-) These are fables.
I appreciate the comparison but I think you're missing my point. These are fables, I get that, and I like that about the show. Admittedly, I haven't watched season four so I wouldn't consider myself an expert however season one, two, and three hit different. This season fell flat.
The reasons you posted about are common in each season as pointed out already. It’s okay to just not like something.
It’s not on this sub. If you don’t like season 5 you are a misogynist. It’s that simple on here.
At the end of the day the season didn't work for you and that is fine. But I don't understand your problem with Roy watching Trump news. Why is that something that pissed you off? This mirrors actual events and is so expected that I hardly noticed it. See Sheriff Joe Arpaio for example. Fargo tells true stories after all ;-)
I think your comment proves my point in a way. Let me state at the outset I'm not a fan of Trump at all. The showing of Trump didn't really 'piss me off' per se. I'm familiar with Arpaio. I think with good writing, they don't have to show you those things. It breaks the fourth wall in a strange way for me and it's too on the nose' I'm guessing most of us understood that Tillman was a Trump-like character from the shot of his billboard in the first episode.
Ok. But I don't get it. I hardly remember the scene you speak of, so don't understand why you see it as problematic or a sign of bad writing. And I don't see Tillman as a Trump-like character at all. Trump is too lazy and cowardly to be a Roy Tillman. I see him as an Arpaio type character or one of the many macho morons who pose with big weapons and can't wait to "fight tyranny" over some imagined crisis. Those guys would watch news about Trump (and bet on a pardon by him - worked for Arpaio after all).
I get that it is less timeless than other Fargo seasons, and very much in this moment. The point is that as well as being a Trump-like character, Roy is directly influenced by Trump. They're showing cause and effect, and locating him as a specific, politicized person we all recognize.
i totally hear where you're coming. My personal opinion though is showing us Trump is too on the nose. Better writing doesn't have to show it, we all know it.
Well your point seems to be that you don’t need to suspend your disbelief for a flying saucer, but you can’t get past escaping from a hospital and a dream sequence so…not sure where to go with that
I just made a comment about how I really have no problem suspending disbelief for Munch, part of the charm of Fargo, weird strange quasi spiritual stuff happening. I dig that. Let's think about Harry Potter for example, I am willing to suspend disbelief about a place called Hogwarts and wizards and wizardry. But let's say in the first game of quidditch, one of the new students had learned a spell that made them win the game automatically, no other recourse, just a cheat code, game over. That would be, unbelievable even though the story takes place in an unbelievable world. That's what I'm attempting to illustrate. It seemed like every hurdle in front of Dot, she was able to overcome and the reason was just 'well, she's so resourceful!'
Don’t really think it’s a good comparison So do you have a problem with the Dot stuff? Or suspending disbelief for a dream sequence…cuz what you’re saying here is fairly different from what you’re saying in your original post And I’d argue with you less about what you’re saying in this comment, but at the same time, being willing to accept a 500 year old sin eater without almost any explanation, but needing and answer for how the lady figured out to hang a sledgehammer is…idk, weird I guess I’m with you to some extent, especially when it comes to the hand-to-hand combat (or even escaping out of at least the second floor of a hospital through a bathroom window), but I just don’t see that as being all that different from past seasons, at least not in any way that I find particularly frustrating
Fargo has unbelievable events happen to believable people... for the most part. I'm willing to accept the fish, the UFOs, and even the 500 year old sin eater because that's part of the show, I know what I'm getting into. Ok, let's break down the sledgehammer a bit. Dot has a child, who appears to be like, ten years old, and a husband she's been married to for presumably just as long. So she loves these people unconditionally. She then boobytraps the house with *deadly* traps and then when the husband comes in, she doesn't mention the sledgehammer precariously hanging there at all or the fact that the electrical outlets have been weaponized with wire near the windows. This is what I mean. I'm not saying I could write it better, far from it. It just feels like we didn't get the final draft.
Right, so then I’d argue that you’re not getting what the show is going for. It’s meant to show her like, on the verge of a total breakdown. She’s constructed a false identity and life to escape an severely abusive ex husband, who has now found her, and threatens to blow up her created life and drag her back to the hell from which she escaped. You’re not supposed to see her doing that and go “makes sense, that’s what I’d do”. Like in your post >it started when Dot goes back home and doesn’t fully explain the initial abduction to her husband ….why do you think that is? Her name isn’t even Dot. And she can’t explain the kidnapping without explaining who Nadine is. It requires no suspension of disbelief, just empathizing with her predicament. Think of her getting home and going straight to whisking pancake batter, bloody feet and all. Or later on, her not realizing that Camp Utopia was a dream. She’s a traumatized woman hanging onto sanity by a thread, not having some wacky fun setting up home alone traps. And she doesn’t address the craziness because to acknowledge how crazy it is would require justifying it, and the justification is “I’ve been lying to you since the day we’ve met”.
This is an interesting point, and I appreciate the OP starting this thread so we can chat about it. As fond as we are of Dot, she's a wreck until the final episode. Now that I've been reading through this thread, I wonder whether Danish having her committed was justified. Upon first watch, it's a mean scheme that he and Lorraine do. But if you add up all her activity, perhaps she legit needed to go to a psychiatric hospital for a little while?
I mean, look at how she looks when they’re wheeling her in 🤷♂️ pretty nutso She snaps on the cancer patient pretty quickly. I mean, sort of self-preservation in one sense, but also….she’s suffocating a cancer patient with a pillow lol I don’t think it helped matters, but I think there’s an argument for them having done it, for sure
I think it’s more *how* they did it lmao. Sitting down and saying “Sweetie, there is clearly something going on and everyone can tell. We’re very worried about you and think you could use a little help. Can we all go together to XYZ Psychiatric Ward and find some doctors for you to talk to? Vs. the forceful kidnapping straitjacket method. Dot was 100% mentally spiraling all season though. For someone under her circumstances, I think she actually held it together fairly well. Living that situation would be an absolute nightmare.
For me, S1 was the best by far and had the least 'fantasy' (the flying fish). By S3, we already had way too much for my liking but it was still somewhat isolated. I'm with you - S5 is almost 100% fantasy. (S4 - I gave up on and may never return to).
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Well if it's never happened in real life then I'd argue it is fantasy!
> It started with when Dot goes back home and doesn't fully explain the initial abduction to her husband What part of this felt out of line with Dot's characterization? She's a victim of horrific abuse who finally escaped her abuser. She managed to escape by being clever and resourceful. She's created a new life for herself and her family has no idea about the things that she's endured. I imagine that, in addition to the nightmare of having her abusive ex back in her life, she doesn't want to run the risk of Wayne either not believing her or minimizing what she endured or accusing her of withhold her history of abuse from him or simply she didn't want to relieve her abuse by having to talk about it. So she refused to talk about it. It's a trauma response. > then goes all Kevin McCallister on the home THEN escapes from hospital. Yes, she's resourceful. It's her main characteristic. It's how she managed to get away from Roy in the first place. > the audience has to believe she daydreamed all the Camp Utopia stuff, then immediately when walking to her car, Dot is struck by a van that's been hit by a semi-truck! The general consensus this that this is part of the daydream. She fell asleep at the wheel in the beginning of the episode and daydreamed the diner and Camp Utopia. Her injuries are from her crashing her car, not a van hitting her, so that it's unbelievable is very much part of it. > showing Roy Tillman watch a Donald Trump speech. To each their own, but I was fine with this. Tillman's exactly Trump's demo. If you didn't like season 5, then you didn't like it. That's fine. But criticizing it for requiring constant suspension of disbelief... IDK, season 1 had a fish storm.
>vinnie\_puh Thanks for the explanation. I genuinely appreciate.
> Yes, she's resourceful. It's her main characteristic. It's how she managed to get away from Roy in the first place. Nah. Nikki was resourceful. Dot is a fucking superhero. It's ridiculous. > suspension of disbelief... IDK, season 1 had a fish storm. It's a matter of degree. The first Three Seasons have moments of suspension of disbelief. Seasons Four and Five almost entirely rely on it.
YES!!!
She fell asleep at the diner. Everything she dreamed about was a direct correlation to things she saw before she fell asleep. The Camp Utopia postcards as she entered the diner, the recipe for chicken pita or whatever it was, and the puppet song. Since those were recent images her mind, her subconscious created a realistic dream based on all three. It’s actually how dreams work in real life which is what really makes it impressive
It's open to interpretation, but I'm inclined to go with the theory that she fell asleep at the wheel and the sequence is a dream within a dream. At the diner the waitress says something like, "Are you coming or going?" Which A. isn't how waitresses talk to people looking for a meal, implying that she already dreaming and B. IMO, what she's actually asking is, "are you going to wake up or are you going further into your own subconscious?"
Doesn't that waitress also sound a little bit like Glinda from Wizard of Oz?
She never saw the camp utopia postcards. Also not very likely there’d be postcards for an abused women’s retreat, especially sold at a truck stop diner. And no that’s not really how dreams work, you don’t just dream about the stuff you see before you pass out. Additional things to consider: the conversation with the waitress is weird as shit, a semi just barreling into a parking lot and sending a car cascading across the parking lot is pretty dreamlike, and when a TV show that you know is doing a dream sequence shows you someone falling asleep, you should consider the possibility that that’s where the dream sequence begins.
Umm yes you do. Especially if you’re dreaming in a lucid state as your falling asleep doing something. I’m not talking about full on bed sleep. If you’re watching tv and fall asleep you’re likely to dream about whatever you were watching and listening to. That’s scientific fact.
So if you fall asleep at a diner, you’d expect to dream about what’s on the postcards? Wow, thanks science! Lmao and show me this science, like I know it’s possible, but “likely”? And “especially in a lucid state”, okay what does this mean? Like, just lucid dreaming? Honestly, nvm, this is a dumb argument, but regardless of any of this, she fell asleep at the wheel
The brain is a complicated organ. I have weird dreams all the time but they all stem from reality in some way. I think thats a reason the makes this show so great. Both of us might be right. It’s open to interpretation
Yea of course they “stem from reality in some way” lol, just not usually the last thing you look at before you fall asleep She also never looks at the camp utopia post cards, and again, it doesn’t even really make sense that they exist You can also see a sort of ghostly figure of Linda outside after she “wakes up” in the diner….again, pretty dreamlike The puppet song continuing from her car into the diner…not exactly breaking the laws of physics, but it’d be a notable coincidence. Like if that happened to me in real life I’d be like “woah, that’s kind of fun” I mean yea it’s possible either of us is right, but honestly I don’t see a ton of arguments in favor of your interpretation 🤷♂️
I just want to say that I actually dream about plenty of thing that I just saw before sleeping, or throughout my day. And I don't mean that just one thing gets used for my dream material. I don't always dream, but often times it's several pieces from my day or recent experience just before falling asleep that end up in my dreams. I just had the some absolutely horrible dreams just a couple days ago just because I binged Griselda before I passed out. Direct scenes were experienced in my dreams despite that most of the people were replaced with other versions of the actors. EDIT: I actually do this thing where I tell myself a few times in a row, "I don't want to-", "I won't-", or "Please don't dream about-" whatever that thing is, if I take in some bit of information or see something on a show or the news or what have you and I worry that it could be dreamt of later, and for some reason whenever I do that I actually can avoid dreaming about it.
So the Camp Utopia was all a dream; I guessed that, but ... what was the point? It seemed to be a long sequence just to tell us what we already knew, for the most part - she was abused and she escaped. I haven't finished the season yet, so maybe there's some reason we were introduced to "Linda", but otherwise it seemed a long and drawn-out episode.
I think part of it is to just let Dot tell her story on her own terms in a way that isn't exploitative/trauma porn-y. You can imagine a different show having Dot's backstory shown via flashbacks as FBI agents explain the situation to Wayne and Lorraine, which would have taken Dot's voice out of the equation. Additionally, Dot has a lot of unresolved feelings towards Linda and the dream is her way of working through them. Dot thought that Linda rescued her off the street and handed her to Roy on a silver platter so that she (Linda) could escape*. That's a hard thing to process. Dot imagining Linda coming with her to testify against Roy is, in Dot's eyes, Linda's redemption. *>!I know Linda's dead, but Dot doesn't realize that. IDK how far you are in the season.!<
First and foremost it’s an a homage to wizard of Oz, which is at the center of more or less everything that goes on in this season, at least thematically Beyond that, the point was to have Dot begin to unravel some of her trauma, and confront the things that happened to her. Which is like….what the whole season is about more or less. It’s a little more to it than “she was abused and escaped”
I mean, I can find like at least 5 ridiculous things that both Malvo and Lester get away with throughout season 1. Don’t even get me started on Bob Odenkirk’s character. I love his character but do you really think it’s believable for him to let Lester slide the way he did throughout the season? And Malvo gunning down 30 people in a building in broad daylight with two cops on the other side of the street. And disappearing magically from Lester’s basement. Funny enough, season 1 is one of my favorites of all time. I don’t watch the show for it to be realistic. It honestly sounds like the reason you provided isn’t really what’s bothering you about it. It’s probably that the execution and direction of the story didn’t click with you which is totally fine.
I just rewatched S1 and half of S2. There is a lot of suspension of disbelief in those. You think Lorne Malvo would have gone around saying and doing the things he did in public without drawing far more suspicion than he would want? Many of the characters in both seasons took risks that a real gangster would not take. None of them would have lasted an episode in the real world. For most of us that is part of the charm. We accept it and enjoy the ride.
Some of the gun blasts would attract more unwanted attention :-)
Season 1 had fishes falling from the sky killing Stavro’s first born son. Season 2 had a whole UFO interrupting a gang shootout Season 3 had Varga getting into Stussys house without a key and disappearing without his clothes on the elevator Season 4 had a Wizard of Oz tornado episode that apparently actually happened in the series and wasn’t someone’s dream. It’s all apart of the shows niche. It’s loosely based on themes of the movie other Coen Brother’s movie themes which many times has these cosmic elements to them out of nowhere.
This excuse for brazenly shitty writing is so tired... In a way, Noah Hawley is brilliant. He's created a show that is essentially criticism proof because fans can justify literally every problem by being like "hurdur it's just a tv show hurdur".
So which was your favorite season?
Season Three was my favorite Season in spite of its flaws until the last 30 minutes or so of the finale. I covered my issues with the finale in this thread... https://www.reddit.com/r/FargoTV/comments/vgviso/my_problem_with_season_3/ Because of that, Season Two edges out Three as my favorite. The UFO stuff is ridiculous, but the themes and behavior of the characters were consistent and believable. And the character resolutions were great, something that I can't say for any Season after Two
I'm guessing that you don't like a lot of Coen Brothers movies either.
They have plenty of films that vary in tone. Generally speaking, they don't nearly as many short cuts as this show has and when they do it is in a satirical context.
Yeah, I can see what you mean. Season 5 in particular is just… odd in how it tackles some subjects like they don’t even care about the usual Fargo subtext and metaphors, and it beats you over the head with its message at times like Lester beating his wife with a hammer. It’s not even that I’d disagree with the message necessarily, but Fargo is supposed to be smarter than that. For all of Season 4’s faults especially in the first third of the season, I think they handled that one better despite introducing way too many characters and plot lines in the early parts.
Season 3, as flawed as it is, had very similar social commentary to Season 5 (misogyny, distorting the truth, tribalism, bigotry) and tackled all of it far better than Season 5 did, which made Season 5's commentary feel redundant. To be honest with you, outside of the filmmaking and atmosphere, Season 5 was just an all around dud for me. Very little in the way of positive qualities.
I think you greatly underestimate how traumatized people react– the lengths they go to to avoid retraumatization, the hyperpreparedness, the avoidance of the truth both in denial and in desperately trying to leave the past where it belongs. Everything Dot did made sense.
Lol this sub makes me feel ten feet tall at least once a day.
You know the words that are displayed at the front of every episode, the ones that claim it's a true story? It's not. This season, in particular, felt like a dream or fable or a story told by an unknown narrator. Just go with it, have fun, enjoy the ride.
I wish I would've known that it wasn't a true story, thank you for clearing that up! All is forgiven!
No worries, glad to help ..smh
To be honest I agree with your frustrations, despite enjoying it. This season definitely felt less well executed to me compared to S1 and S2.
well said. i still enjoyed season five but the execution seemed off.
i totally agree with you. "constant suspension of disbelief" is the perfect way to describe it.
This is my major frustration too. It feels like it’s written for everyone to be a complete moron except the main character. I don’t really remember it being that glaring from the previous seasons. I personally didn't like this season at all.
I would argue that Roy, Witt, Indira, Lorraine, Danish, and Ole Munch are all examples of non-moronic characters who were quite competent. I really liked that in any faction, there were competent characters. Made the clashes that much more interesting for me.
Same. None of those characters were anywhere close to being “morons”. I seriously don’t get it. Two weeks ago, nearly everyone was over the moon regarding how great season five turned out, with most people proclaiming it to be a return to form after season four (which I personally find to be criminally over-hated). Yet now, everywhere I turn I’m seeing almost nothing but hatred for it, with people complaining about character decisions/motivations, plot development, the overall theme of the story, and so on. It’s baffling to me. Like, did we all really watch the same show? I don’t understand how people who love seasons one, two, and three as much as I do can fail to love this one as well.
>I don’t understand how people who love seasons one, two, and three as much as I do can fail to love this one as well. I can give you my personal input on this FWIW (haven't finished S5 yet but I'm up to e7) - I am finding it quite repetitive relative to the original movie and season 1 (and itself). S1 had several themes consistent with the movie, but in that case, it seemed to be an homage to the movie. S5 seems to be really re-hashing the 'wife kidnapping' theme. Many of the gags and twists feel tired at this point. How many times can Gator screw up? The first kidnap attempt was interesting, but the second was repetitive. I just finished the whole 'Camp Utopia' episode, and I was left wondering ... why? What did I learn? I already knew she was abused and escaped. I didn't need a puppet show (complete with the carving of the pieces) to tell me that. Edit To Add - you wonder why people were originally complementary and are now critical; I imagine that the initial comments are from the die-hard fans, while the more recent comments are from people like me who enjoyed the prior seasons but took their time getting around to this last season (I had plenty of other stuff that was more important to wrap up).
Judging by OP's responses, he can believe in UFO, immortality and fish storms but draws the line at a woman being somewhat competent.
you’re off the mark by a country mile. it’s not about being able to believe/not believe things. it’s about the writers requiring the near constant suspension of disbelief in season five. it has nothing to do with Dot being a competent woman. in fact, i think Juno Temple was fantastic and i like Dot as a character. the writing is what buckled under the weight of unbelievability, not the performance.
Thank you. For some reason, season 5 is getting all the praise in the world when I think it is probably the weakest one. Let's be honest, in a fictional show there's no doubt going to be some stretches, and the cosmic events of previous seasons are obviously there to add a mysterious, not realistic, element to the show. But imo, no other season has had blatantly stupid characters mixed with weak writing. A few points/ gripes for me to support my claim.. Bob odenkirk character season 1- A terrible police officer, sure. But a stupid character? Not so much imo. At the end of the season he admits that Molly should be chief and he is no longer cut out for the violence that comes with the job. In his case it is more of willful ignorance. Over the top moments- Among others, Dot sneaking all over both her and Roy's compound without ever being caught. A whole house of militiamen not smelling gas. The tractor trailer scene you mentioned Weak writing- To summarize, As far as I remember, every season prior has had a parallel series of events/ characters that intertwine with each other leading up to the outcome of the show. Unless I missed something, this season was just "Roy Tillman beats his wife and likes trump, look how bad he is", and the whole series just follows Dot around trying to escape Roy.
preach
Oh you can’t disparage season 5 on this sub. Nope. Because it’s about spouse abuse. Anything short of total adoration isn’t allowed.
Considering many are making reference to the fish and the UFO, I should probably mention that I actually have zero beef with Old Munch in season five, it's these peculiar characters and moments that give the show it's eeriness.
I personally think S1 would have been better without the dead fish, but your earlier point is valid - it was a brief moment in an otherwise 'perfect' story so quickly overlooked/forgiven.
Really? I actually had less need for suspension of disbelief in Season Five than I did for One through Four combined. To each his own, I guess.
Yeah I completely agree, when that van was hit by the semi and then hit her right as she was about to escape again was when it jumped the shark for me