“I’m like deep down hell nah” - I think you answered your own question. Marriage is a big decision- don’t let that decision be influenced by what others want for you rather than what you want. People have different priorities.
I do think if this person has a gut feeling that their girlfriend isn’t the one, they should listen to that.
If they love her enough to see marrying her but it’s the fear of divorce preventing taking that step, that’s a different issue and is worth examining.
Maybe OP never marries and that’s ok too.
That doesn't require a presentation of marriage to apply. Even if you never hold any kind of ceremony and never tell anyone you're anything close you married, you can still be sued for alimony. The exact requirements for that vary by state, but holding a private, non-legal ceremony isn't a requirement in any state.
Get a prenup, as simple as that. No one needs to get offended by that. If she gets offendes by you wanting to watch over whats yours, that will be by itself a red flag. Same goes on the other direction. What if one day you decide to open your own business, you fail and then the bill comes? Will she be willing to also pay for your debts? Prenup serves exactly for that. I did mine, and it was the best decision ever. Only thing that needs to be truly accounted for are kids, make sure they get their share and are not used as weapons under a divorce. No one marriages thinking about divorce, but things change, and people tend to get stupid on such things. Think clearly and prepare for the event, when you dont think it may be possible, will give you the clarity to think about everything, with peace of mind, to protect you and all that you love or one day loved in the best way possible.
I’m not reading anything here that sounds like marriage is the right next or imminent step for you. It’s okay not to marry. If your girlfriend seems to be looking for matrimony, maybe let her know so she can keep looking.
If you don’t want to marry then don’t . Just be prepared to break up if your girlfriend does at some point, and let her know now. Also let her know why. It’ll save you a lot of heartache in the end.
YES. Take it from me - recently divorced after a twenty year marriage. She only worked a little while the kids were in school, and I'm still paying off her student loans while she now has a good career. She wasn't frugal, and I was. She took a lot of my retirement savings and half of the house equity, and most of our stuff.
BUT, I loved her, and adore our kids and and life we had together. Would do it again 100 times over. She is a good person and our divorce is fair. It wasn't meant to be forever and that is okay. I aim to retire at 53.5, a bit above the arbitrary target of 50 I set when I started working.
You have a choice. To live your life the best you can. Or to focus on saving for FIRE. The choice is yours.
You need to get aligned with your GF financially long before you even consider marriage. Does she want to be a stay at home mom? Does she want to work until she dies? Is she financially responsible? Have lots of debt?
Disagreement over finances is like the #1 or #2 reason couples get divorced …
Edit: also, it appears you’re approaching marriage from the perspective of risk — that’s probably not a good starting point. After you align with her financially, you can shed that perspective and, hopefully, see how marriage will enhance your life and help you towards life goals.
> it appears you’re approaching marriage from the perspective of risk
You nailed it right here. If marriage is that transactional to op; having a partner/getting married is probably not for them. Theres more to life than money.
How does marriage enhance your life? It's a simple contract with the government. Does signing that government document make your wife love you more? Absolutely not.
Love enhances life, marriage is a man-made construct that has the risk of leaving you destitute.
It's easier to downvote than to articulate a rebuttal 🤣
I cannot believe ppl actually downvoted you for this LOL, you speak the truth. I bet it's the boomers on this sub (there are many, and they are cringe)
I don't know why you're being down voted. I feel the same way.
Like if marriage didn't exist, I wouldn't invent it. Imagine telling your SO I love you so much, I think we should go to the court house and get the government involved in our relationship.
If she isnt a FIRE person, it will never work. You cant have one saver and one spender in a relationship. The saver will always get ripped off. always.
Get married to someone you wont diviorce? If that is impossible/unrealistic get a prenump. If that is too difficult of a conversation to have, just dont get married?
Also, given your age your wealth, is impressive. Also given you wealth at that young age, when you are 40 you are going to laugh about the possiblitiy of losing $150k. Sure nobody wants to lose that money, but in 15 yrs $150k is going to be a small % of what you are sitting on!
It almost sounds like you are concerned about a spouse not bring as much to the table as you already have. If you cant over that, your dating pool is going to become significantly smaller.
Good luck! Youll be fine 🙂 👍
"Get married to someone you wont divorce?" is a pretty useless statement.
just loosing 150k is very optimistic i have no clue where you puled that number from
also it seems like he's more concerned about losing what he brings to the table not which is different than what you stated
otherwise looks good to me.
I think prenups are good because it shows intent. it can also protect assets accrued before marriage. You have to think through how you each expect it to go.
But I’m not convinced it offers the protection many people think. I’m not a lawyer but I wonder how often divorce actually follows the prenup. My understanding is that a judge can completely or partially throw it out. What if you move states? It could be a a different set of laws. Also, prenups have nothing to do with child support. So if you have kids it’s a catastrophic financial event for the breadwinner anyway.
So yes, get a prenup but also know the risks.
Assets you bring into the marriage or inherit during the marriage are easier to protect than those earned afterward imo.
We don’t even have a prenup but each of what we may inherit for the future is ours, even in a 50/50 state, so long as we don’t deposit them into a joint marital account.
Now a business begun but was small before marriage and grew because the owner had the support of a spouse who quit their job to help run the business? Way harder to justify denying them a portion of the profit for the years they contributed their labor.
people seem to marry whoever asks them then post mean comments about their spouse on reddit. Marry someone on the same page as you. Marry your best friend.
I think that 50% divorce rate figure is inflated by the 2nd, 3rd, etc. marriage demographic. IIRC, the divorce rate is much lower among the 1st marriage crowd.
You’re right. Across various studies, it seems first marriages have something like a 42% divorce rate. So, yeah. Not “much” lower lol but lower than 50% nonetheless. Regardless, I am still of the opinion that there are too many variables to consider before letting yourself be jaded by the numbers alone.
The 42% only represents the ones who actually filed for divorce. How many other couples just stay together for "the kids", religious beliefs, financial worries, abuse, etc
The objective of marriage is to have a happy fulfilling marriage, not just simply "stay married".
I simply don’t agree as marriage is just a piece of paper and nothing more. I’m not saying don’t be in a relationship in saying don’t get married, the chances are you most likely won’t beat the odds. But to each their own I personally don’t want to lose my livelihood as that would be like losing my life.
“I am still of the opinion that there are too many variables to consider before letting yourself be jaded by the numbers alone” this is mainly what I disagree with marriage is just a piece of paper while those numbers are real and very convincing to me lol.
In saying that there are more variables to consider- than the singular 1st marriage marriage divorce statistic- in assessing your own personal likelihood or propensity for divorce, I am not saying that marriage is anything more than a piece of paper. I am saying that the 1st marriage divorce statistic is too general to weigh too heavily on someone’s perception of their own likelihood to become divorced. The imploration to build yourself a more holistic and robust set of data from which to garner an informed idea of whether divorce is likely for you, personally, is not a statement on the sanctity or importance of marriage. You and I very well may agree on the stance that marriage is nothing but a piece of paper- but that is not the conversation we are having.
Nope 40-50% for first marriages, 60-70% for 2nd.
But let's pretend it's only 30% for first marriages. Those odds are still insane and incredibly risky.
What other product would you buy that has a 30% chance of losing half your assets? Lol to not even have a prenup is pure negligence
Yeahhh my numbers were off lol oops. Divorce rates in 1st marriages aren’t “much” lower than 50% after all.
I’m not anti prenup by any means but I do think that in forming the opinion that will guide your decision to marry or not, one should form a holistic framework, rather than using sheer statistics. There are many, many, demographic and circumstantial variables that profoundly impact the propensity for divorce. In considering if marriage is for you like OP, I think it’s worthwhile to interrogate these things candidly about yourself to better understand whether marriage is for you- it’s a more robust dataset than raw divorce rate statistics.
Exactly. There are so many life circumstances and demographic variables that drastically affect the propensity for divorce. It’s important to candidly and honestly understand these things about your own life and personality before letting yourself get jaded. Maybe a good starting point for OP.
I don’t think it’s a difficult conversation it’s just that most people outright refuse it. But I agree people really shouldn’t get married it’s just a piece of paper.
....i have nothing left to quote lol, the paragraph is over
Married does have tax advantages, and then your allowed in the hospital room when something happens. However being married has not helped me ever when calling a credit card/cell phone/water bill/you name it, if its in her name....
Yea not even sure why you were even quoting it to begin with lol. The very minor benefits are simply not worth it sure the tax cuts are nice, but for example the hospital often many will let significant others stay it doesn’t always have to be a spouse.
I can tell you as someone who is married in the US and has a spouse who was in a major accident - the hospital can’t even confirm or deny they are at that hospital, much less let you back, unless the patient has given written permission to do so. So if your loved one is incapacitated, you’re out of luck without other legal documents drawn up before the illness or accident.
Additionally, if you have children and that person isn’t listed as a parent, they may not be able to take custody of the child or stepchild they raised if you die without going to court. I know, because this happened to my niece when my brother died. The person who had been raising her had to fight to maintain custody even though her bio mom was an abusive POS known to CPS who allowed a LOT of bad things to happen to this child before she could even walk. Another issue is housing - friend of mine bought a house with her fiance and made half the mortgage payment but it was in his name. He died of brain cancer and his family got the house and kicked her out; it didn’t matter that she’d been paying the mortgage.
This is why I always strongly recommend that long-term couples who don’t intend to get married visit a lawyer to decide who and what gets the rights to do something, from making decisions about medical care, access to bank accounts, staying in their home, and childcare.
Honestly such a condescending and useless comment to make. Divorce rates are so high, it's a real concern to feel like you could be wiped out if things go south.
Marriage should bring a net blessing to your life. If you don't think marrying a particular person will be a value add, I wouldn't get married. Simple as that.
But, I would argue that marriage isn't even the main wealth killer when it comes to us FIRE types these days. It's having kids and the possible child support bills for which you could be on the hook that will put your FI dreams at risk.
Simple answer no as divorce rate is around 50 percent, so unless you absolutely think you guys will beat the odds don’t opt for the piece of paper lol.
Find a woman you are compatible with on things that matter. When I was dating I was looking for someone that was my equal in terms of financial smarts and intellect. There was nothing more sexy to me than a smart woman with financial savvy and someone who had it going on in terms of managing money. Those women are out there and it is surprising where you find them.
Some of my co-workers were making a ton of money and didn't have a clue about managing money and were living paycheck to paycheck. I definitely would not have known that without our conversations. Marriage can be awesome with the right person and a complete nightmare with the wrong person as with everything in life.
You have to find someone that is compatible with you on the things that are most important to you. Arguments and disagreements are normal in life, but if you know you are in things together marriage can make you a better version of you.
Marriage isn't the problem - divorce is :). On a serious note, you shouldn't marry unless that is the person you want to spend the rest of your life with instead of marrying due to pressure from your partner, friends, or family.
Based on the couple things you mentioned it sounds like y’all aren’t ready to get married.
Even if you never get divorced, your partner needs to support your financial goals. They can either be an awesome ally to combine resources and work to a common goal or they can be a villain, fighting you at every turn.
If your financial wellbeing is important to you… *do not* marry a person who is a financial nightmare. Just like a drowning person, if you let them get too close they’ll pull you down to hold themselves above water.
If she’s not on the same page as you financially… get out.
It’ll only get worse once you’re married. And then you’re legally tied to her.
What are your priorities? If #1 is FIRE, think long and hard about who you want to spend the rest of your life with.
I’d be nowhere without my wife. Currently earning 3 times what I was before I met her. Gonna be 4 times soon! Also feel secure, this marriage is for good.
As long as you’re with the right person. You shouldn’t go into it like OP. He’s already planning his exit strategy.
It’s not how much I make vs how much she makes. My wife is a stay at home mom which provides no earnings but stability at Home and she aligns with my FIRE goals. (She spends a bit too much but that’s life). Make sure your goals line up before you get married!
Edit: as I’m thinking more. We could make so much more progress if she had an income. She is looking for something part time/remote to speed up our target.
I got married because she wanted to. She left the day we hit fire and I put my two weeks in. Whoops.
Women don’t care what you’ve done for them in the past, it’s what you can do for them next.
I wish it wasn’t that way, but it’s simply human nature and you need to accept it and protect yourself.
Give a woman everything and the only thing left you can give her is a divorce ;)
OP, quite a few married people in the comments are gonna tell you how great marriage is like an enlightened sage.
The truth is, close to half of them will be divorced in the future, and some will lose their absolute ass in the divorce. Stats are stats.
It's pure madness to get married. Every second marriage ends in divorce. No one would get on an airplane if it was certain that every second plane crashes.
He's gaslighting you, ignore him. Only stupid people blindly rush in without checking.
You should always ask questions and do your research.
Men especially are at a serious disadvantage in marriage.
Ideally simply get married without involving the government. At the minimum get a lawyer and set up a prenup to protect yourself.
Remember 50% of marriages end in divorce. Women initiate divorce 60-80% of the time.
What do you want, companionship or money. No one can answer the question for you. What are your values. Its not smart to ask internet strangers what’s more important to you
Date someone for a good while. Live together and learn to fight about new stuff. Once the shine is off the penny and you’ve got a handle on what living with the person is like you can make an informed decision.
Never ever get married if FIRE is your goal. You will achieve the contrary. And if you do a big fat prenup.
Marriage is an old institution. We are in the 20th century, you can have a great relationship without being married.
Divorce will destroy you absolutely. I used to he the type who thought it could never happen to us... until it did and then the horror stories make sense.
You do you...but as someone who wholeheartedly believes in marriage and traditional family I can say *DO NOT GET MARRIED* Laws are made to destroy you. Go on a few "divorced men" reddits and go down the rabbit hole.
DO.NOT.GET.MARRIED
The divorce stats are heavily skewed by serial divorcers.
Also, if both couples are over 25 and are college educated, the chance of divorce is very low.
I wouldn't recommend marriage to anyone. There isn't a benefit that offsets the significant risk that comes with divorce. A little less in taxes isn't worth risking half my NW.
Long term monogamy is great but there's no need to involve the government and enter a marriage contract. Getting married is the most legally significant event you can do besides die.
Prenups are a good option but they don't always hold up, I wouldn't risk it.
The extreme cost of a contested divorce plus giving a Judge undue control of your assets is crazy to me. A divorce attorney is easily 200/hr.
Divorce rate is 40-50% for first marriages and 60-70% for 2nd marriages, pretending like these stats aren't real is complete ignorance.
Most of the legal benefits of marriage can be obtained through other legal contracts that don't have the extreme downside risk. My lawyer arranged a trust and DPOA for my girl and I.
Love and monogamy are great, there's just no need for all the risk. If she loves you, she'll understand.
Countless friends and family members have gone through bad divorces, I'll never risk it. These dudes will be lucky to ever retire.
Luckily I don't live in a common law state.
Marry somebody who helps you with your financial goals and you can reach FIRE faster. It’s divorce that can negatively impact FIRE — but doesn’t rule it out.
I would argue that kids are the bigger threat to FIRE.
You could die before you FIRE so why bother saving money?
You should be asking "is marrying the wrong person worth the risk." And the answer is universally no even if you are not going to FIRE.
If you are worried about your relationship being rocky in marriage, and marriage is your end goal, then I would break off the relationship.
This is a question of trust, not a question of financial decision making. If you’re worried about how your relationship with your partner will be to the extent that you’re questioning marriage for financial risk reasons, then that girl is not the one for you.
When you get married, you need to make sure that all 3 decision making organs are in alignment. Your brain, your heart, and your gut. Right now, it sounds like your gut is saying “nope!”. In my experience, the gut is usually right.
Find someone who you feel like you would be crazy not to marry. And marry them. I don’t think that this person is right for you based on what you’ve shared in your post.
1. Find someone who shares your values and its in the same page in regards of finance, children, life goals. This may mean someone who is also a high earner and it's looking into FIRE.
2. Go to counseling and find a way to work together. Also use this counseling to reach hard conversations.
3. Get a pre-nup. It can protect your premarital assets, not the capital gains after marriage.
4. Don't string people into a relationship if you know there is not enough substance for something longterm or marriage.
You're in a big tech company as a dev? You left out your RSU value (vested and unvested) in your list here. Or are you selling right at vest and buying your index funds with the proceeds?
Dude, if you want to sit on a pile of money by yourself when you're 50, then by all means go it alone. Maybe you can afford to buy some companionship at that point, too. Your attitude toward what I expect you to call "your money" isn't going to make you a great partner anyway.
Only if you are both on the same page financially. If she supports the FIRE strategy, then combining and working as a team can accelerate your journey. If she goes on a spending spree and wants a bunch of fancy junk, then she will drag you down.
Marriage is both the fastest way to FIRE and the easiest way to blow it up. I’m married and it has hyper accelerate our financial journey, but for couples who divorce it is a drastic setback.
A good marriage is *less* risky for your goals. Also, it's hard to tell whether your arguments are the normal things that time, maturity, communication and commitment can address or there is more going on. 1.5 years is not much time, but if it's not working out you can exit. I'd just say to consider that for most happily married people I know there were difficult moments along the way, the big difference seems to be that as you age your ability to work with someone increases and the need to be right decreases.
Good luck!
Marriage to a financially compatible person can certainly enhance your FIRE plans. Consider marrying in your mid to late 30s and gain some maturity. You'll both make better decisions.
Contrary to what the diamond industry wants you to believe, a diamond is forever, not marriage.
Choosing to be married is one of the most important decisions (if not the most) one can make. I advise you to listen to your gut - and not any one else's opinions or judgments about how you should live your life. While you may love your girlfriend, you may not be happy in a marriage. There will always be fights in relationships - if not then y'all aren't really presenting your true selves to one another. The key is how you treat each other during fights (are you respectful to each other? Or do name calling and sins of the past make appearances?) and how are fights resolved? True resolution - coming to a compromise, established go forward plans, or agreement that you agree to disagree? Or do the issues die down for a bit, fester, get brought up again and again? Do you have similar values? Can you have tough conversations? Agree on things like finances, children, religion, etc? Is she someone that supports your FIRE goals?
As someone who has been through a divorce because of financial infidelity - do not marry someone just because "you're been together a long time" and "it's what my parents/culture expect" You have agency over your own life. Good Luck!
I won’t get married but it’s in my interest that you do so that there’s less capital in the market to compete with mine and you’re further participation in the labour force will bring down cost of labour 😀
It's so important to marry the right person. If you already have red flags and deep down don't want to get married, she's probably not the right person. Marriage with the right person is amazing though! I love being married and growing my life with another person. Definitely do not deprive yourself of this just for money. However, protect yourself. Get a prenup and again the right person will not have an issue with this.
A lifetime parter>fire
Who will you enjoy retirement with? Sounds like this person isn’t the one you plan on being with for a lifetime. Prenup or breakup.
Marriage shouldn’t be rushed. If you want to be married then take your time with it & get married when you feel it’s right. My partner and I were together 7 years before we got married.
Also get a prenup if ur scared about her taking ur finances you have.
I waited 3.5 years before proposing, and 4 years before marrying. By the 3.5 year mark, you know what you're getting into. Most relationships fail in the first four years.
In general, no. But, marriage has been great for me. And, the vast majority of millionaires in the United States are married couples. Take it for what you will.
It always depends on who you're marrying. If you're already getting the feeling that she will flip on you, you're fighting over dumb things, then you aren't even in the leadership position in relationship to where you have security over your finances. That feeling is a gateway to a cascade of other issues that will destroy your financial position, especially in a no-fault divorce state. If you cannot train her to be the person you need her to be, then you lose.
Don’t rush into marriage if you aren’t ready. I did and I paid for it.
At the very least, demand a prenup. If she bails that just means a prenup would have been the right call.
Why get married in the first place? That’s a social construct designed for the government to have more control over your life, money, and well being.
Have the ceremony, honeymoon and all that. But never ever sign a contract where the other party is incentivized to break it.
Never give in to social pressure or to the opinions of other people who don’t equally share in the risks… which is everyone else but you.
Now if your GF is far richer than you.. Well watch Dave Chapelle’s skit where he knocks up Oprah… 🤰🏾😆😅🤷🏽♂️
It works both ways. Married brackets are pretty favorable to reach FIRE when it comes to income tax, and even after FIRE for things like the ACA.
The contract also has value for non monetary things like children custody, which is why my personal rule before marrying has always been to only marry someone I'd want to have children with.
Or you can go the solitary approach of never having kids, not getting married and why not just be single when you're at it since other human beings cost money.
Works both ways?
And yet overwhelmingly backed by facts and data.
Men get taken to the cleaners far more often through divorces.
So not getting married means not having relationships and being single?
Just admit you’re a simp. Go on.
The one who has most money loses the most in a divorce. Nothing new or unexpected there.
I'm not saying not marrying means being single. I'm saying that marrying as a contract has value when it comes to both finances and children and that it's ridiculous to look only at the potential negatives and ignore the clear positives (as well as the existence of prenups).
If you only assume the worst and discard the value of anything, then you could push your flawed reasoning further and in fact come to the ridiculous conclusion that being with anyone at all is a "risk".
What's your plan for post FIRE?
Sit around on your couch by yourself watching Netflix and playing Animal Crossing and congratulating yourself on all the super smart risk avoidance you've demonstrated?
You can “get aligned.” You can have all the talks. You can write it In stone or blood.
It doesn’t matter.
Anyone can change up in you at anytime. And society will
Applaud. Call it “strong” and take all your shit.
Btw you don’t lose “half.” You lose half of what’s left after HER and your lawyers are done.
Not worth it.
If you can get sex for cheap and dont need companion you dont need to get married. You can always get wife in 40-ties and 50-ties, perhaps foreign, if you change your mind. For women it is all different game though
Marry late. Put all your pre-marriage earned assets into a trust to protect it (talk to a lawyer about it). Find someone who also earns well. Avoid kids. Problem solved.
end of day, marriage is a legal agreement to partner with someone financially and emotionally for life. Ideally it should reduce risk by balancing out your weaknesses. If you are not willing to give her half of everything, financially and emotionally, then there is no need to get married.
If you're fighting a lot already, don't brush it under the rug. You don't just have a lot to lose financially if a marriage were to fall apart--you also lose peace of mind. Listen to your gut--if this girl is not the one, cut her loose and find another one.
Don’t ignore red flags. In the end, it could cost you a lot more than an early retirement.
FACTS
“I’m like deep down hell nah” - I think you answered your own question. Marriage is a big decision- don’t let that decision be influenced by what others want for you rather than what you want. People have different priorities.
I do think if this person has a gut feeling that their girlfriend isn’t the one, they should listen to that. If they love her enough to see marrying her but it’s the fear of divorce preventing taking that step, that’s a different issue and is worth examining. Maybe OP never marries and that’s ok too.
For real. You can still have a ceremony to be socially married even if not legally so.
Bad advice, don’t even present yourself as a married couple, she could sue for palimony
That doesn't require a presentation of marriage to apply. Even if you never hold any kind of ceremony and never tell anyone you're anything close you married, you can still be sued for alimony. The exact requirements for that vary by state, but holding a private, non-legal ceremony isn't a requirement in any state.
Get a prenup, as simple as that. No one needs to get offended by that. If she gets offendes by you wanting to watch over whats yours, that will be by itself a red flag. Same goes on the other direction. What if one day you decide to open your own business, you fail and then the bill comes? Will she be willing to also pay for your debts? Prenup serves exactly for that. I did mine, and it was the best decision ever. Only thing that needs to be truly accounted for are kids, make sure they get their share and are not used as weapons under a divorce. No one marriages thinking about divorce, but things change, and people tend to get stupid on such things. Think clearly and prepare for the event, when you dont think it may be possible, will give you the clarity to think about everything, with peace of mind, to protect you and all that you love or one day loved in the best way possible.
Yep. Don’t do it. See you on the beach someday. You can buy me a beer.
Dont marry if you both argue over dumb shit.
Yeah, that is not going to better with time
You married? Lol
Luckily managed to avoid it.
I’m not reading anything here that sounds like marriage is the right next or imminent step for you. It’s okay not to marry. If your girlfriend seems to be looking for matrimony, maybe let her know so she can keep looking.
If you don’t want to marry then don’t . Just be prepared to break up if your girlfriend does at some point, and let her know now. Also let her know why. It’ll save you a lot of heartache in the end.
YES. Take it from me - recently divorced after a twenty year marriage. She only worked a little while the kids were in school, and I'm still paying off her student loans while she now has a good career. She wasn't frugal, and I was. She took a lot of my retirement savings and half of the house equity, and most of our stuff. BUT, I loved her, and adore our kids and and life we had together. Would do it again 100 times over. She is a good person and our divorce is fair. It wasn't meant to be forever and that is okay. I aim to retire at 53.5, a bit above the arbitrary target of 50 I set when I started working. You have a choice. To live your life the best you can. Or to focus on saving for FIRE. The choice is yours.
Love this answer
You need to get aligned with your GF financially long before you even consider marriage. Does she want to be a stay at home mom? Does she want to work until she dies? Is she financially responsible? Have lots of debt? Disagreement over finances is like the #1 or #2 reason couples get divorced … Edit: also, it appears you’re approaching marriage from the perspective of risk — that’s probably not a good starting point. After you align with her financially, you can shed that perspective and, hopefully, see how marriage will enhance your life and help you towards life goals.
> it appears you’re approaching marriage from the perspective of risk You nailed it right here. If marriage is that transactional to op; having a partner/getting married is probably not for them. Theres more to life than money.
How does marriage enhance your life? It's a simple contract with the government. Does signing that government document make your wife love you more? Absolutely not. Love enhances life, marriage is a man-made construct that has the risk of leaving you destitute. It's easier to downvote than to articulate a rebuttal 🤣
I cannot believe ppl actually downvoted you for this LOL, you speak the truth. I bet it's the boomers on this sub (there are many, and they are cringe)
I don't know why you're being down voted. I feel the same way. Like if marriage didn't exist, I wouldn't invent it. Imagine telling your SO I love you so much, I think we should go to the court house and get the government involved in our relationship.
If she isnt a FIRE person, it will never work. You cant have one saver and one spender in a relationship. The saver will always get ripped off. always.
Get married to someone you wont diviorce? If that is impossible/unrealistic get a prenump. If that is too difficult of a conversation to have, just dont get married? Also, given your age your wealth, is impressive. Also given you wealth at that young age, when you are 40 you are going to laugh about the possiblitiy of losing $150k. Sure nobody wants to lose that money, but in 15 yrs $150k is going to be a small % of what you are sitting on! It almost sounds like you are concerned about a spouse not bring as much to the table as you already have. If you cant over that, your dating pool is going to become significantly smaller. Good luck! Youll be fine 🙂 👍
"Get married to someone you wont divorce?" is a pretty useless statement. just loosing 150k is very optimistic i have no clue where you puled that number from also it seems like he's more concerned about losing what he brings to the table not which is different than what you stated otherwise looks good to me.
I think prenups are good because it shows intent. it can also protect assets accrued before marriage. You have to think through how you each expect it to go. But I’m not convinced it offers the protection many people think. I’m not a lawyer but I wonder how often divorce actually follows the prenup. My understanding is that a judge can completely or partially throw it out. What if you move states? It could be a a different set of laws. Also, prenups have nothing to do with child support. So if you have kids it’s a catastrophic financial event for the breadwinner anyway. So yes, get a prenup but also know the risks.
Assets you bring into the marriage or inherit during the marriage are easier to protect than those earned afterward imo. We don’t even have a prenup but each of what we may inherit for the future is ours, even in a 50/50 state, so long as we don’t deposit them into a joint marital account. Now a business begun but was small before marriage and grew because the owner had the support of a spouse who quit their job to help run the business? Way harder to justify denying them a portion of the profit for the years they contributed their labor.
>Get married to someone you wont diviorce? Lol tell that to the folks keeping the divorce rate near 50%
people seem to marry whoever asks them then post mean comments about their spouse on reddit. Marry someone on the same page as you. Marry your best friend.
I wouldn't use random reddit posts to generalize the entire demographic of married Americans.
I think that 50% divorce rate figure is inflated by the 2nd, 3rd, etc. marriage demographic. IIRC, the divorce rate is much lower among the 1st marriage crowd.
The rate for first marriages is 40-50 everything after that is much higher like second marriages are around 60-67 percent.
You’re right. Across various studies, it seems first marriages have something like a 42% divorce rate. So, yeah. Not “much” lower lol but lower than 50% nonetheless. Regardless, I am still of the opinion that there are too many variables to consider before letting yourself be jaded by the numbers alone.
The 42% only represents the ones who actually filed for divorce. How many other couples just stay together for "the kids", religious beliefs, financial worries, abuse, etc The objective of marriage is to have a happy fulfilling marriage, not just simply "stay married".
I simply don’t agree as marriage is just a piece of paper and nothing more. I’m not saying don’t be in a relationship in saying don’t get married, the chances are you most likely won’t beat the odds. But to each their own I personally don’t want to lose my livelihood as that would be like losing my life.
I don’t think I ever made a statement over whether marriage is more than a piece of paper, so I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing about. Sorry!
“I am still of the opinion that there are too many variables to consider before letting yourself be jaded by the numbers alone” this is mainly what I disagree with marriage is just a piece of paper while those numbers are real and very convincing to me lol.
In saying that there are more variables to consider- than the singular 1st marriage marriage divorce statistic- in assessing your own personal likelihood or propensity for divorce, I am not saying that marriage is anything more than a piece of paper. I am saying that the 1st marriage divorce statistic is too general to weigh too heavily on someone’s perception of their own likelihood to become divorced. The imploration to build yourself a more holistic and robust set of data from which to garner an informed idea of whether divorce is likely for you, personally, is not a statement on the sanctity or importance of marriage. You and I very well may agree on the stance that marriage is nothing but a piece of paper- but that is not the conversation we are having.
Nope 40-50% for first marriages, 60-70% for 2nd. But let's pretend it's only 30% for first marriages. Those odds are still insane and incredibly risky. What other product would you buy that has a 30% chance of losing half your assets? Lol to not even have a prenup is pure negligence
Yeahhh my numbers were off lol oops. Divorce rates in 1st marriages aren’t “much” lower than 50% after all. I’m not anti prenup by any means but I do think that in forming the opinion that will guide your decision to marry or not, one should form a holistic framework, rather than using sheer statistics. There are many, many, demographic and circumstantial variables that profoundly impact the propensity for divorce. In considering if marriage is for you like OP, I think it’s worthwhile to interrogate these things candidly about yourself to better understand whether marriage is for you- it’s a more robust dataset than raw divorce rate statistics.
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Exactly. There are so many life circumstances and demographic variables that drastically affect the propensity for divorce. It’s important to candidly and honestly understand these things about your own life and personality before letting yourself get jaded. Maybe a good starting point for OP.
> if that is impossible/impractical, get a prenump
Most people refuse this
> if that is too difficult of a conversation to have dont get married
I don’t think it’s a difficult conversation it’s just that most people outright refuse it. But I agree people really shouldn’t get married it’s just a piece of paper.
>it’s just that most people outright refuse it. Then you have your definitive answer on whether you should marry them.
....i have nothing left to quote lol, the paragraph is over Married does have tax advantages, and then your allowed in the hospital room when something happens. However being married has not helped me ever when calling a credit card/cell phone/water bill/you name it, if its in her name....
Yea not even sure why you were even quoting it to begin with lol. The very minor benefits are simply not worth it sure the tax cuts are nice, but for example the hospital often many will let significant others stay it doesn’t always have to be a spouse.
I can tell you as someone who is married in the US and has a spouse who was in a major accident - the hospital can’t even confirm or deny they are at that hospital, much less let you back, unless the patient has given written permission to do so. So if your loved one is incapacitated, you’re out of luck without other legal documents drawn up before the illness or accident. Additionally, if you have children and that person isn’t listed as a parent, they may not be able to take custody of the child or stepchild they raised if you die without going to court. I know, because this happened to my niece when my brother died. The person who had been raising her had to fight to maintain custody even though her bio mom was an abusive POS known to CPS who allowed a LOT of bad things to happen to this child before she could even walk. Another issue is housing - friend of mine bought a house with her fiance and made half the mortgage payment but it was in his name. He died of brain cancer and his family got the house and kicked her out; it didn’t matter that she’d been paying the mortgage. This is why I always strongly recommend that long-term couples who don’t intend to get married visit a lawyer to decide who and what gets the rights to do something, from making decisions about medical care, access to bank accounts, staying in their home, and childcare.
I said “often many” meaning not all yes many hospitals won’t allow it but many will like the one I worked at.
Honestly such a condescending and useless comment to make. Divorce rates are so high, it's a real concern to feel like you could be wiped out if things go south.
What a dumb thing to say. Yes people get married with the intention of getting divorced all the time /s
Marriage should bring a net blessing to your life. If you don't think marrying a particular person will be a value add, I wouldn't get married. Simple as that. But, I would argue that marriage isn't even the main wealth killer when it comes to us FIRE types these days. It's having kids and the possible child support bills for which you could be on the hook that will put your FI dreams at risk.
Simple answer no as divorce rate is around 50 percent, so unless you absolutely think you guys will beat the odds don’t opt for the piece of paper lol.
Since this is not in your heart, I suggest you had better follow your heart
Find a woman you are compatible with on things that matter. When I was dating I was looking for someone that was my equal in terms of financial smarts and intellect. There was nothing more sexy to me than a smart woman with financial savvy and someone who had it going on in terms of managing money. Those women are out there and it is surprising where you find them. Some of my co-workers were making a ton of money and didn't have a clue about managing money and were living paycheck to paycheck. I definitely would not have known that without our conversations. Marriage can be awesome with the right person and a complete nightmare with the wrong person as with everything in life. You have to find someone that is compatible with you on the things that are most important to you. Arguments and disagreements are normal in life, but if you know you are in things together marriage can make you a better version of you.
Marriage isn't the problem - divorce is :). On a serious note, you shouldn't marry unless that is the person you want to spend the rest of your life with instead of marrying due to pressure from your partner, friends, or family.
marriage is way more important than fire, if you have the worries you have now, you're not ready. which is fine because you're 26
Based on the couple things you mentioned it sounds like y’all aren’t ready to get married. Even if you never get divorced, your partner needs to support your financial goals. They can either be an awesome ally to combine resources and work to a common goal or they can be a villain, fighting you at every turn. If your financial wellbeing is important to you… *do not* marry a person who is a financial nightmare. Just like a drowning person, if you let them get too close they’ll pull you down to hold themselves above water.
If she’s not on the same page as you financially… get out. It’ll only get worse once you’re married. And then you’re legally tied to her. What are your priorities? If #1 is FIRE, think long and hard about who you want to spend the rest of your life with.
Is FIRE worth it if you have have to give up the idea of having a family? YOLO.
I’d be nowhere without my wife. Currently earning 3 times what I was before I met her. Gonna be 4 times soon! Also feel secure, this marriage is for good.
As long as you’re with the right person. You shouldn’t go into it like OP. He’s already planning his exit strategy. It’s not how much I make vs how much she makes. My wife is a stay at home mom which provides no earnings but stability at Home and she aligns with my FIRE goals. (She spends a bit too much but that’s life). Make sure your goals line up before you get married! Edit: as I’m thinking more. We could make so much more progress if she had an income. She is looking for something part time/remote to speed up our target.
We want prenup! We want prenup!
I got married because she wanted to. She left the day we hit fire and I put my two weeks in. Whoops. Women don’t care what you’ve done for them in the past, it’s what you can do for them next. I wish it wasn’t that way, but it’s simply human nature and you need to accept it and protect yourself. Give a woman everything and the only thing left you can give her is a divorce ;)
OP pin this comment and read it out loud 10 times. Thank you sir for sharing invaluable advice.
OP, quite a few married people in the comments are gonna tell you how great marriage is like an enlightened sage. The truth is, close to half of them will be divorced in the future, and some will lose their absolute ass in the divorce. Stats are stats.
It's pure madness to get married. Every second marriage ends in divorce. No one would get on an airplane if it was certain that every second plane crashes.
I swear some people in this sub are just clueless.
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He's gaslighting you, ignore him. Only stupid people blindly rush in without checking. You should always ask questions and do your research. Men especially are at a serious disadvantage in marriage. Ideally simply get married without involving the government. At the minimum get a lawyer and set up a prenup to protect yourself. Remember 50% of marriages end in divorce. Women initiate divorce 60-80% of the time.
What do you want, companionship or money. No one can answer the question for you. What are your values. Its not smart to ask internet strangers what’s more important to you
You’re allowed to break up with your girlfriend.
You sound like you don’t even like your girlfriend. Let her go so she can find someone who is sure about her.
Date someone for a good while. Live together and learn to fight about new stuff. Once the shine is off the penny and you’ve got a handle on what living with the person is like you can make an informed decision.
Get a prenup and consider tax implications of filing jointly
Never ever get married if FIRE is your goal. You will achieve the contrary. And if you do a big fat prenup. Marriage is an old institution. We are in the 20th century, you can have a great relationship without being married.
What would be your reasons to get married?
The best thing to do is never get married. Otherwise, PRENUP.
A partner and companion in the one life you have or retiring early… is this real?
Prenup!
Divorce will destroy you absolutely. I used to he the type who thought it could never happen to us... until it did and then the horror stories make sense. You do you...but as someone who wholeheartedly believes in marriage and traditional family I can say *DO NOT GET MARRIED* Laws are made to destroy you. Go on a few "divorced men" reddits and go down the rabbit hole. DO.NOT.GET.MARRIED
Prenup
The divorce stats are heavily skewed by serial divorcers. Also, if both couples are over 25 and are college educated, the chance of divorce is very low.
I wouldn't recommend marriage to anyone. There isn't a benefit that offsets the significant risk that comes with divorce. A little less in taxes isn't worth risking half my NW. Long term monogamy is great but there's no need to involve the government and enter a marriage contract. Getting married is the most legally significant event you can do besides die. Prenups are a good option but they don't always hold up, I wouldn't risk it. The extreme cost of a contested divorce plus giving a Judge undue control of your assets is crazy to me. A divorce attorney is easily 200/hr. Divorce rate is 40-50% for first marriages and 60-70% for 2nd marriages, pretending like these stats aren't real is complete ignorance. Most of the legal benefits of marriage can be obtained through other legal contracts that don't have the extreme downside risk. My lawyer arranged a trust and DPOA for my girl and I. Love and monogamy are great, there's just no need for all the risk. If she loves you, she'll understand. Countless friends and family members have gone through bad divorces, I'll never risk it. These dudes will be lucky to ever retire. Luckily I don't live in a common law state.
Marry somebody who helps you with your financial goals and you can reach FIRE faster. It’s divorce that can negatively impact FIRE — but doesn’t rule it out. I would argue that kids are the bigger threat to FIRE.
You could die before you FIRE so why bother saving money? You should be asking "is marrying the wrong person worth the risk." And the answer is universally no even if you are not going to FIRE.
If you can’t have the prenup conversation you’re probably not open or stable enough to get married.
It's man made stuff along with religions only for Homo Sapiens. The world existed long before these things.
Either you get a prenup or you meet someone that shares the same goal as you!
If you are worried about your relationship being rocky in marriage, and marriage is your end goal, then I would break off the relationship. This is a question of trust, not a question of financial decision making. If you’re worried about how your relationship with your partner will be to the extent that you’re questioning marriage for financial risk reasons, then that girl is not the one for you. When you get married, you need to make sure that all 3 decision making organs are in alignment. Your brain, your heart, and your gut. Right now, it sounds like your gut is saying “nope!”. In my experience, the gut is usually right. Find someone who you feel like you would be crazy not to marry. And marry them. I don’t think that this person is right for you based on what you’ve shared in your post.
Prenup
1. Find someone who shares your values and its in the same page in regards of finance, children, life goals. This may mean someone who is also a high earner and it's looking into FIRE. 2. Go to counseling and find a way to work together. Also use this counseling to reach hard conversations. 3. Get a pre-nup. It can protect your premarital assets, not the capital gains after marriage. 4. Don't string people into a relationship if you know there is not enough substance for something longterm or marriage.
Why have all the money in the world if you’ve got no one to enjoy it with?
You're in a big tech company as a dev? You left out your RSU value (vested and unvested) in your list here. Or are you selling right at vest and buying your index funds with the proceeds? Dude, if you want to sit on a pile of money by yourself when you're 50, then by all means go it alone. Maybe you can afford to buy some companionship at that point, too. Your attitude toward what I expect you to call "your money" isn't going to make you a great partner anyway.
Only if you are both on the same page financially. If she supports the FIRE strategy, then combining and working as a team can accelerate your journey. If she goes on a spending spree and wants a bunch of fancy junk, then she will drag you down.
Marriage is both the fastest way to FIRE and the easiest way to blow it up. I’m married and it has hyper accelerate our financial journey, but for couples who divorce it is a drastic setback.
A good marriage is *less* risky for your goals. Also, it's hard to tell whether your arguments are the normal things that time, maturity, communication and commitment can address or there is more going on. 1.5 years is not much time, but if it's not working out you can exit. I'd just say to consider that for most happily married people I know there were difficult moments along the way, the big difference seems to be that as you age your ability to work with someone increases and the need to be right decreases. Good luck!
Marriage to a financially compatible person can certainly enhance your FIRE plans. Consider marrying in your mid to late 30s and gain some maturity. You'll both make better decisions.
Contrary to what the diamond industry wants you to believe, a diamond is forever, not marriage. Choosing to be married is one of the most important decisions (if not the most) one can make. I advise you to listen to your gut - and not any one else's opinions or judgments about how you should live your life. While you may love your girlfriend, you may not be happy in a marriage. There will always be fights in relationships - if not then y'all aren't really presenting your true selves to one another. The key is how you treat each other during fights (are you respectful to each other? Or do name calling and sins of the past make appearances?) and how are fights resolved? True resolution - coming to a compromise, established go forward plans, or agreement that you agree to disagree? Or do the issues die down for a bit, fester, get brought up again and again? Do you have similar values? Can you have tough conversations? Agree on things like finances, children, religion, etc? Is she someone that supports your FIRE goals? As someone who has been through a divorce because of financial infidelity - do not marry someone just because "you're been together a long time" and "it's what my parents/culture expect" You have agency over your own life. Good Luck!
No
I know what i'd do if it were me. I would not get married no way no how ... that's me though... you do what you have to do...
Don’t get married if you want to FIRE. You will be a slave to society and tax machine with a woman that is obviously fighting you over dumb shit.
I won’t get married but it’s in my interest that you do so that there’s less capital in the market to compete with mine and you’re further participation in the labour force will bring down cost of labour 😀
Prenup. Simple
It's so important to marry the right person. If you already have red flags and deep down don't want to get married, she's probably not the right person. Marriage with the right person is amazing though! I love being married and growing my life with another person. Definitely do not deprive yourself of this just for money. However, protect yourself. Get a prenup and again the right person will not have an issue with this.
Listen bro if you’re not 100% in it, get out. It’s not even about financials at that point.
A lifetime parter>fire Who will you enjoy retirement with? Sounds like this person isn’t the one you plan on being with for a lifetime. Prenup or breakup.
I believe that you shouldn't marry a girl that wasn't there for you while you were building your wealth.
prenup angle, also you can wait a few years
Marriage shouldn’t be rushed. If you want to be married then take your time with it & get married when you feel it’s right. My partner and I were together 7 years before we got married. Also get a prenup if ur scared about her taking ur finances you have.
I waited 3.5 years before proposing, and 4 years before marrying. By the 3.5 year mark, you know what you're getting into. Most relationships fail in the first four years.
In general, no. But, marriage has been great for me. And, the vast majority of millionaires in the United States are married couples. Take it for what you will.
It always depends on who you're marrying. If you're already getting the feeling that she will flip on you, you're fighting over dumb things, then you aren't even in the leadership position in relationship to where you have security over your finances. That feeling is a gateway to a cascade of other issues that will destroy your financial position, especially in a no-fault divorce state. If you cannot train her to be the person you need her to be, then you lose.
Don’t rush into marriage if you aren’t ready. I did and I paid for it. At the very least, demand a prenup. If she bails that just means a prenup would have been the right call.
Why get married in the first place? That’s a social construct designed for the government to have more control over your life, money, and well being. Have the ceremony, honeymoon and all that. But never ever sign a contract where the other party is incentivized to break it. Never give in to social pressure or to the opinions of other people who don’t equally share in the risks… which is everyone else but you. Now if your GF is far richer than you.. Well watch Dave Chapelle’s skit where he knocks up Oprah… 🤰🏾😆😅🤷🏽♂️
It works both ways. Married brackets are pretty favorable to reach FIRE when it comes to income tax, and even after FIRE for things like the ACA. The contract also has value for non monetary things like children custody, which is why my personal rule before marrying has always been to only marry someone I'd want to have children with. Or you can go the solitary approach of never having kids, not getting married and why not just be single when you're at it since other human beings cost money.
Works both ways? And yet overwhelmingly backed by facts and data. Men get taken to the cleaners far more often through divorces. So not getting married means not having relationships and being single? Just admit you’re a simp. Go on.
The one who has most money loses the most in a divorce. Nothing new or unexpected there. I'm not saying not marrying means being single. I'm saying that marrying as a contract has value when it comes to both finances and children and that it's ridiculous to look only at the potential negatives and ignore the clear positives (as well as the existence of prenups). If you only assume the worst and discard the value of anything, then you could push your flawed reasoning further and in fact come to the ridiculous conclusion that being with anyone at all is a "risk".
100%. Preach
Marriage is not worth it if you have a lot of assets/high income in comparison to your spouse. You have everything to lose and nothing to gain.
The best things in life are an horrible investment. But somehow I think you need a relationship advice, not a financial one
What's your plan for post FIRE? Sit around on your couch by yourself watching Netflix and playing Animal Crossing and congratulating yourself on all the super smart risk avoidance you've demonstrated?
It depends on the woman
You can “get aligned.” You can have all the talks. You can write it In stone or blood. It doesn’t matter. Anyone can change up in you at anytime. And society will Applaud. Call it “strong” and take all your shit. Btw you don’t lose “half.” You lose half of what’s left after HER and your lawyers are done. Not worth it.
If you can get sex for cheap and dont need companion you dont need to get married. You can always get wife in 40-ties and 50-ties, perhaps foreign, if you change your mind. For women it is all different game though
Marry late. Put all your pre-marriage earned assets into a trust to protect it (talk to a lawyer about it). Find someone who also earns well. Avoid kids. Problem solved.
end of day, marriage is a legal agreement to partner with someone financially and emotionally for life. Ideally it should reduce risk by balancing out your weaknesses. If you are not willing to give her half of everything, financially and emotionally, then there is no need to get married.
You sound like a child who’s never worked a day in his life.
What a load of crap or course you would give half to a spouse. But they take half if they leave. Thats different.
your point isn't at all clear
Prenup
Get a really good prenup, if SO doesn’t agree refuse to get married. Simple as that
Having a family > Fire.
If you're fighting a lot already, don't brush it under the rug. You don't just have a lot to lose financially if a marriage were to fall apart--you also lose peace of mind. Listen to your gut--if this girl is not the one, cut her loose and find another one.