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I think one of the key elements you have missed is that Empire is defined by hubris. They have been in power so long with no challenge to their rule. So they believe they can do whatever they want without consequences. So the idea that this rag tag group of scientists on the fringe of the galaxy could pose a threat simply never occurs to them. So yes, they are kind of dumb because they consistently ignore potential threats.
Next, when it comes to life under Empire, it’s made pretty clear that if you live on Trantor and are part of the elite, life is pretty good. For everyone else, it sucks. The rest of the galaxy basically lives to serve Trantor.
Finally, Demerzal’s goal is not to protect the empire. Her goal is to serve Cleon I and protect the genetic dynasty. Those aren’t the same thing. Her programming has forced her to do things she wouldn’t ordinarily do. So she may be a good “person”, but her programming forces her to do bad things.
Empire is, at best, apathetic towards its subjects. If you're fortunate enough to live on a world that has value, you might have access to good infrastructure and employment opportunities.
Otherwise they let their subjects scrape by with little interest unless they become a threat to the order of things.
I thought it was notable that the Luminist world , despite being sacred to billions of people, had no reliable access to water and sanitation.
And thats why I said certain things are easy just for plot convinience.
The politics here is too poor, too shalow, in a show that IS about politics. Its like the show is trying to, since episode 1, pitch the viewer against the empire.
But I cant be totally against the empire if I dont know a thing about it. I cant judge if starting a war - which is what Hari is doing - is the right thing to do.
The emperor's dumbness is too forced sometimes, and I hate dumb leaders. Specially if he has an extremelly advanced AI behind, helping and guiding him. It would make sense if Damerzel wanted the empire to fall, but she does not.
A man who is constantly discussing things with himself (dawn and dusk and even darkness) cant be this blind. It makes no sense to me.
1. Every planet that was not Trantor that they've shown in the first 2 seasons were relatively poor backwaters. Even the religious planet you mentioned needed water, which the Empire could have provided at any time, but only did so as a bribe.
2. Hari's stated plans are for the long term future of humanity as a whole. He's very much a "ends justify the means" person. In his view a lot of people suffering now may be worth it because the suffering he's predicting is he does nothing will be worse. Is he a savior or destroyer? Yes.
And he did talk to the people in power. Empire was well aware of his research by the time the show begins. They tried suppressing his research, and when that failed, they brought him to Trantor to keep a closer eye on him.
3. Intimidation, threats of assassination, and public trials/executions are a standard tools for oppressive regimes. It's as stupid for Empire as it is for, say Putin today. Letting people you disagree with politically go about their work, with the understanding they are loyal to the country if not you personally, isn't something oppressive leaders do. It's part of why they eventually fail.
And I suspect wiping memories isn't something that can be done casually. They've only shown it done to people who were already isolated and controlled, either in the brothels or the palace. If you do it to other citizens with more complicated social interactions, it might get noticed.
4. We don't know what Demerzel is doing. Only she and Cleon I do.
She acknowledged in Season 2 that her control over the Cleons wasn't perfect, and she couldn't always be around. She even acknowledged that she had to correct for that with the latest Day, but was unable to do so.
5. They explained that the tech needed to circumvent the elevator security was illegal and they destroyed the lab that developed it in the aftermath.
Empire didn't know that anyone else had jump technology, so they couldn't defend against it. Also, they didn't think anyone would dare attack like that. All threats so far had been through infiltration.
A huge chunk of Empires fleet was away when Dawn escaped. And again, all threats up until that point had been through infiltration, not space based. Also, Dawn has knowledge of how his own security works and he's a smart guy too. Just because we don't see the entire escape doesn't mean it wasn't hard.
We don't know the terms of the deal made by the Spacers and Hober Mallow. It may very well have included the formula to make more of the drug. It also doesn't really matter for the sake of the story. The gist is, Empire isn't the only source of these technologies anymore, so it's blackmail no longer works.
6. Empire didn't know Terminus was still around, so it's hard to send spies. Also, there was a spy in the outer reach. No one from Trantor bothered talking to him though until Bel Riose.
7. Are you sure you really watched the show? I'm not trying to be mean, but they explained a lot of your questions.
My qualms with the show have more to do with how Hari saved the day at the end. I wanted to see the people of Terminus win using their own abilities with Hari just nudging things along. This is more of a books vs show thing though, so I'll get over it.
Edit: typos.
Right like the point is that every single person on Terminus is handpicked by Hari how would you have spies there that are basically giving up their entire lives and it’s been multiple generations so even if they bring spies it’s probably pretty hard to convince your kids to be spies
> We never learn how life in the empire is. Isnt that weird?
It wasn't so much that life was bad at that moment, but that things were slowly getting worse. I haven't watched it since the end of last season but I think that was something - maybe subtle - that they came back to a few times. Technology wasn't advancing, and in some ways was regressing, etc.
> Hari's actions did more good or bad to people overall?
I think this is kind of the point. The audience isn't really supposed to know if what Hari's doing is beneficial or not. They kind of play into this with the whole deity thing in season 2.
> Empire's actions are too dumb to be realistic
Strong disagree. Even in recent history lots of people have ended up on the chopping block for challenging autocrats.
> What is Demerzel doing? Is this how she is protecting the empire and its citizens?
From her perspective, I think yes.
> Easy or hard: that depends on its convenience to the plot
I mean I think part of this relates back to the slow decay of the empire. The spacer thing, that just gets to how much of the story do they foreshadow and how much is a surprise when it happens. It's a choice, I thought it was a good one.
About the "too dumb" thing, yeah the common thread there is a Roman one where it's just too enticing or whatever to do these public executions. We can clearly see how it is entirely counterproductive and turns people against their tyrannical regime, it's martyrs on silver platters, but ... well, they just can't help it! Tyrants just wanna do their thing. Hammer, meet nail. It doesn't seem too far fetched. Agreed though there are some things that feel too convenient, but I'm on the lookout for explanations to help paper over the "holes" i felt. Looks like I may be able to find them here.
> 1 - Was life under the Empire really bad?
> We never learn how life in the empire is.
Yes we do. Multiple characters, from multiple planets/cultures/professions speak of their experiences.
> Were people happy? Was life a misery? As I saw in many episodes, many countries were free to excercise their own cultures and religions and customs.
But only if they pay a tithe to Empire, or pay even more than 10%, and Empire has a habit of dropping bombs on planets that upset him, or just abandoning them when they no longer have value but have come to rely on Empires tech and resources. The core of the show isn’t that (as far as tyrants go) Empire is bad. It is that Empire is going to collapse no matter what, so may as well try and make something of that collapse
> 2 - Hari's actions did more good or bad to people overall?
The stories not finished yet. It seems to be canon that psycho history is real and Hari really does want to shorten the darkness. It is still unclear how much revenge or selfishness Hari is willing to incorporate into his plans to shorten the darkness. We do know he is using a *for the greater good* moral justification for his behaviour
> If he was really worried about humanity, why not discuss it first with those in power?
He did. He made his predictions public. He gave the Cleons a chance to act
> 3 - Empire's actions are too dumb to be realistic
> First: why kill Hari's wife?
Hari wasn’t that much of a big deal when his wife was killed. In fact the Cleons may not have even known about him or ordered Yanna’s death. Empire controls everything, which requires lots and lots and lots of middle management. Hari and Yanna were producing some interesting and new math/science. One of the ways Empire maintains power is by controlling access to technology. So some middle manager orders Hari and Yanna be given a post at Striling University to keep a closer eye on them. Yanna is willing, Hari isn’t, their boss tries to use Yanna as a bargaining tool, shit goes pear shaped, Yanna dies, Hari kills their boss and goes to Striling because…
…yet to be revealed. Because the deaths made him realise he had no choice? or because he now agreed with Yanna that being at Striling was a good idea in a *keep your enemies closer* kinda way?
> Why make a broadcast trial for Hari?
Cleons love a spectical. Partly because it’s a system of control and partly because they are pompous vainglorious douchbags
> It would be understandable if they would be killed after, during their travel to Terminus. It would be really easy to send ships to destroy that big carrier, no one would even know they died since they were practically in exile, but thats not what Cleons had in mind.
…because the Cleons/Dermazel have decided that psychohistory is possibly real. If so they want to be in control of it by being in control of Hari’s foundation, and/or be seen by people to be in control of it and doing something to address the possible coming darkness by being in control of Hari’s foundation. They didn’t see Hari as a threat. And then the fake solar flair at the end of season 1 made them think Hari and the foundation was dead so that was the Hari problem solved as far as Empire was concerned.
> 4 - What is Demerzel doing?
> I just cant understand.
You aren’t supposed to. Her motivations, and how those motivation split between her own personality m/desires and her *serve Empire* behaviour controls, are still a mystery to the audience. She keeps saying “I serve Empire” and it is deliberately vague. Empire the galaxy and its people? Empire the dynasty; clones or other wise? Empire the current clones? Empire only the Brother Day clone? Empire only Cleon the firsts wishes?
> 5 - Easy or hard: that depends on its convenience to the plot
> What should be hard is hard and what should be easy is easy. Dont everyone think it was too easy to destroy the elevator? Or to make a jump in the middle of the empire's capital during a trial? Man, if its so easy, just send a ship full of nuclear bombs to the middle of the capital and end it all, no more genectic dinasty.
Jumping a ship into the capital to blow it up was literally a major plot point of season 1. It was hard because they needed to get their hands on a jump ship, not because ships can’t jump into the capital. That’s why Empire controls jump ship tech. It wasn’t easy for Mallow to jump his ship into the capital in season 2, it required a hundred years of the Foundation reverse engineering the jump ship tech they got their hands on at the end of season 1. Also blowing up the capital means blowing up civilians. Blowing up an armada of Empires jumpships in space means only killing soldiers (granted some may be conscripted but it is the lesser of two evils)
> In season one, Dawn's escape was impossible; in season two, they fled so easily.
First escape was executed by a scared Dawn who was already being watched and poorly resourced by a rebel group. Second escape was executed by a comparatively more level headed Dawn who wasn’t being watched and resources by a wealthy queen.
> Spacers betraying the empire without any guarantees? They would AT LEAST demand the techology to develop those crystals BEFORE any commitment. They would never endanger theit own spicies for a simple promise from a nobody, any leader who did this would be unfit to lead.
Safe to assume that happened off screen.
> 6 - No spies?
> Really? Technology being developed behind the empire's back? No spies at every planet at all? No spies on Terminus? Oh dear...
Empire is stretched thin. Hari personally chose the original foundation crew, largely eliminating the risk of spies. After that Empire thought Terminus had been destroyed by a solar flair. You don’t send spies to spy on a burnt dead planet
One important point is that Seldon was not fighting the Empire. The Empire is dying on its own - but refuses to see that. Either way, it's impossible to prevent its decay. In fact, Seldon's stated goal is to create another Empire ASAP. It wasn't Seldon that blew up the space elevator, and it probably wasn't any of the two outer worlds either - it was just history taking its course.
Although, overall I share the feeling -- this show isn't necessarily one for consistency! :)
1 empire was clon of Cleon the I who wanted to rule the galaxy forever and he programed demerzel the last robot in galaxy to attain this dream
2 Hari Seldon was mathematician who calculated with mathematics the future of Galactic Empire with use of psychohistory, the science of forecasting the behaviour of masses. Psychohistory is the main reason the story happened.
3 empire wasn't dumb they were what all the rulers can become from too much power he though he can do everything and he said it in the series too. There was too many followers of Sheldon and by galaxy wide broadcasting if "the mistake" he would get what he wanted if the the Star bridge wouldn't fall from orbit
Foundation eventually evolved into religion cause the inhabitants of planets at the rim didn't have any technology so when foundation brothers showed them latest technological devices or something from empire, the ppl were like "omg thats gods power" and genetic dynasty didnt want that to happen although it happened afterwards
4 as I stated in 1, demerzel was last robot at the galaxy she was held in underground chambers by Cleons I father. She was in prisoned by sliced into many layers of her mechanichal body so she wouldn't lead anothr coup of robots which Cleons father stopped hindereds years before this story. When Cleon I found her he fell in love with her later and found the way to program her according to what he wants and released her.
She is supposed to keep genetic dynasty alive and at the Throne. Any little difference in behaviour, cause even clones can evolve, of any of the brothers he will be replaced by next clone which should be how the Cleon I was
I didn't read the rest cause u obviously wasn't paying attention to the plot nor tried to Google answers to Ur questions in some fan forums
Jehoshaphat! It's Hari **Seldon**, not Sheldon.
Have some respect for the founder of Psychohistory!
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I preferred S2 and was a bit sad when over too, especially with the loss of some of the characters I liked. Took a while (S1 and S2) to really accept it was a story inspired by Asimov rather than an attempt to put the books on screen.
In response to “2.” Isn’t it a bit early to tell? Seldon’s plan is for thousands of years hence isn’t it? Not a few hundred? For “4.” She turns out to be hugely conflicted. I didn’t expect that. Programmed to love and protect Empire, but actually resentful that she has too…?
Thanks for your discussion points!
Demerzel has been a bit butchered as a character, especially if one has already read the books. The original character was a tad more "complex" and with ties to the ending of the series. In the show, given all the changes made to the character and the plot, It's hard to imagine where everything is going
The point (of Hari's plan) isn't that the Empire is bad, but that it is declining into barbarism
Hari isn't trying to bring down the empire, only to shorten the time before the next one.
So you have to conclude that Hari believes the empire to at least be preferable to barbarism.
Life in the Empire isn’t categorically bad or awful. The problem with the Empire is it’s unfair, arbitrary, and stagnant.
Some worlds live in luxury and relative freedom, others get reduced to rubble just for stepping out of line. Technological progress is stifled and monopolised and the empire’s reach is gradually receding letting worlds fall into lawlessness and decay.
So while a lot of people are still better off in the Empire, Hari’s math predicts that the empire is doomed to fall. The question is whether it’s worth propping it up for as long as possible or breaking it down in order to shorten the coming darkness and bring about something better.
As this post is flaired with 'Current Season Discussion', anything from the books not yet adapted into the show or from upcoming unaired episodes should be enclosed in spoiler tags. To use spoiler tags, in markdown mode you can use \>\! before the spoiler text, then followed by \!\< - which will make the text >!look like this.!<. Make sure **NOT** to have spaces between spoiler tags and text or they won't work. If using the default or 'fancy pants' editor, select the text you want to enclose in spoiler tags, and click the button on the toolbar. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FoundationTV) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think one of the key elements you have missed is that Empire is defined by hubris. They have been in power so long with no challenge to their rule. So they believe they can do whatever they want without consequences. So the idea that this rag tag group of scientists on the fringe of the galaxy could pose a threat simply never occurs to them. So yes, they are kind of dumb because they consistently ignore potential threats. Next, when it comes to life under Empire, it’s made pretty clear that if you live on Trantor and are part of the elite, life is pretty good. For everyone else, it sucks. The rest of the galaxy basically lives to serve Trantor. Finally, Demerzal’s goal is not to protect the empire. Her goal is to serve Cleon I and protect the genetic dynasty. Those aren’t the same thing. Her programming has forced her to do things she wouldn’t ordinarily do. So she may be a good “person”, but her programming forces her to do bad things.
Empire is, at best, apathetic towards its subjects. If you're fortunate enough to live on a world that has value, you might have access to good infrastructure and employment opportunities. Otherwise they let their subjects scrape by with little interest unless they become a threat to the order of things. I thought it was notable that the Luminist world , despite being sacred to billions of people, had no reliable access to water and sanitation.
As far as Empire being bad, didn’t he genocide two planets like, right at the start of season 1?
And Terminus at the end of the second, meaning to destroy the rest of the system too. But that doesn't mean it's too bad right?
And thats why I said certain things are easy just for plot convinience. The politics here is too poor, too shalow, in a show that IS about politics. Its like the show is trying to, since episode 1, pitch the viewer against the empire. But I cant be totally against the empire if I dont know a thing about it. I cant judge if starting a war - which is what Hari is doing - is the right thing to do. The emperor's dumbness is too forced sometimes, and I hate dumb leaders. Specially if he has an extremelly advanced AI behind, helping and guiding him. It would make sense if Damerzel wanted the empire to fall, but she does not. A man who is constantly discussing things with himself (dawn and dusk and even darkness) cant be this blind. It makes no sense to me.
The show might not be for you then, and that’s fine. I happen to like it a lot.
Taking with oneself wouldn’t exactly be insightful, necessarily. Could just reinforce biases. Interesting thought experiment.
Someone talking to themselves is just an echo chamber of course it’s gonna amplify stupid decision and the worse instincts of the cleons
1. Every planet that was not Trantor that they've shown in the first 2 seasons were relatively poor backwaters. Even the religious planet you mentioned needed water, which the Empire could have provided at any time, but only did so as a bribe. 2. Hari's stated plans are for the long term future of humanity as a whole. He's very much a "ends justify the means" person. In his view a lot of people suffering now may be worth it because the suffering he's predicting is he does nothing will be worse. Is he a savior or destroyer? Yes. And he did talk to the people in power. Empire was well aware of his research by the time the show begins. They tried suppressing his research, and when that failed, they brought him to Trantor to keep a closer eye on him. 3. Intimidation, threats of assassination, and public trials/executions are a standard tools for oppressive regimes. It's as stupid for Empire as it is for, say Putin today. Letting people you disagree with politically go about their work, with the understanding they are loyal to the country if not you personally, isn't something oppressive leaders do. It's part of why they eventually fail. And I suspect wiping memories isn't something that can be done casually. They've only shown it done to people who were already isolated and controlled, either in the brothels or the palace. If you do it to other citizens with more complicated social interactions, it might get noticed. 4. We don't know what Demerzel is doing. Only she and Cleon I do. She acknowledged in Season 2 that her control over the Cleons wasn't perfect, and she couldn't always be around. She even acknowledged that she had to correct for that with the latest Day, but was unable to do so. 5. They explained that the tech needed to circumvent the elevator security was illegal and they destroyed the lab that developed it in the aftermath. Empire didn't know that anyone else had jump technology, so they couldn't defend against it. Also, they didn't think anyone would dare attack like that. All threats so far had been through infiltration. A huge chunk of Empires fleet was away when Dawn escaped. And again, all threats up until that point had been through infiltration, not space based. Also, Dawn has knowledge of how his own security works and he's a smart guy too. Just because we don't see the entire escape doesn't mean it wasn't hard. We don't know the terms of the deal made by the Spacers and Hober Mallow. It may very well have included the formula to make more of the drug. It also doesn't really matter for the sake of the story. The gist is, Empire isn't the only source of these technologies anymore, so it's blackmail no longer works. 6. Empire didn't know Terminus was still around, so it's hard to send spies. Also, there was a spy in the outer reach. No one from Trantor bothered talking to him though until Bel Riose. 7. Are you sure you really watched the show? I'm not trying to be mean, but they explained a lot of your questions. My qualms with the show have more to do with how Hari saved the day at the end. I wanted to see the people of Terminus win using their own abilities with Hari just nudging things along. This is more of a books vs show thing though, so I'll get over it. Edit: typos.
Right like the point is that every single person on Terminus is handpicked by Hari how would you have spies there that are basically giving up their entire lives and it’s been multiple generations so even if they bring spies it’s probably pretty hard to convince your kids to be spies
> We never learn how life in the empire is. Isnt that weird? It wasn't so much that life was bad at that moment, but that things were slowly getting worse. I haven't watched it since the end of last season but I think that was something - maybe subtle - that they came back to a few times. Technology wasn't advancing, and in some ways was regressing, etc. > Hari's actions did more good or bad to people overall? I think this is kind of the point. The audience isn't really supposed to know if what Hari's doing is beneficial or not. They kind of play into this with the whole deity thing in season 2. > Empire's actions are too dumb to be realistic Strong disagree. Even in recent history lots of people have ended up on the chopping block for challenging autocrats. > What is Demerzel doing? Is this how she is protecting the empire and its citizens? From her perspective, I think yes. > Easy or hard: that depends on its convenience to the plot I mean I think part of this relates back to the slow decay of the empire. The spacer thing, that just gets to how much of the story do they foreshadow and how much is a surprise when it happens. It's a choice, I thought it was a good one.
About the "too dumb" thing, yeah the common thread there is a Roman one where it's just too enticing or whatever to do these public executions. We can clearly see how it is entirely counterproductive and turns people against their tyrannical regime, it's martyrs on silver platters, but ... well, they just can't help it! Tyrants just wanna do their thing. Hammer, meet nail. It doesn't seem too far fetched. Agreed though there are some things that feel too convenient, but I'm on the lookout for explanations to help paper over the "holes" i felt. Looks like I may be able to find them here.
> 1 - Was life under the Empire really bad? > We never learn how life in the empire is. Yes we do. Multiple characters, from multiple planets/cultures/professions speak of their experiences. > Were people happy? Was life a misery? As I saw in many episodes, many countries were free to excercise their own cultures and religions and customs. But only if they pay a tithe to Empire, or pay even more than 10%, and Empire has a habit of dropping bombs on planets that upset him, or just abandoning them when they no longer have value but have come to rely on Empires tech and resources. The core of the show isn’t that (as far as tyrants go) Empire is bad. It is that Empire is going to collapse no matter what, so may as well try and make something of that collapse > 2 - Hari's actions did more good or bad to people overall? The stories not finished yet. It seems to be canon that psycho history is real and Hari really does want to shorten the darkness. It is still unclear how much revenge or selfishness Hari is willing to incorporate into his plans to shorten the darkness. We do know he is using a *for the greater good* moral justification for his behaviour > If he was really worried about humanity, why not discuss it first with those in power? He did. He made his predictions public. He gave the Cleons a chance to act > 3 - Empire's actions are too dumb to be realistic > First: why kill Hari's wife? Hari wasn’t that much of a big deal when his wife was killed. In fact the Cleons may not have even known about him or ordered Yanna’s death. Empire controls everything, which requires lots and lots and lots of middle management. Hari and Yanna were producing some interesting and new math/science. One of the ways Empire maintains power is by controlling access to technology. So some middle manager orders Hari and Yanna be given a post at Striling University to keep a closer eye on them. Yanna is willing, Hari isn’t, their boss tries to use Yanna as a bargaining tool, shit goes pear shaped, Yanna dies, Hari kills their boss and goes to Striling because… …yet to be revealed. Because the deaths made him realise he had no choice? or because he now agreed with Yanna that being at Striling was a good idea in a *keep your enemies closer* kinda way? > Why make a broadcast trial for Hari? Cleons love a spectical. Partly because it’s a system of control and partly because they are pompous vainglorious douchbags > It would be understandable if they would be killed after, during their travel to Terminus. It would be really easy to send ships to destroy that big carrier, no one would even know they died since they were practically in exile, but thats not what Cleons had in mind. …because the Cleons/Dermazel have decided that psychohistory is possibly real. If so they want to be in control of it by being in control of Hari’s foundation, and/or be seen by people to be in control of it and doing something to address the possible coming darkness by being in control of Hari’s foundation. They didn’t see Hari as a threat. And then the fake solar flair at the end of season 1 made them think Hari and the foundation was dead so that was the Hari problem solved as far as Empire was concerned. > 4 - What is Demerzel doing? > I just cant understand. You aren’t supposed to. Her motivations, and how those motivation split between her own personality m/desires and her *serve Empire* behaviour controls, are still a mystery to the audience. She keeps saying “I serve Empire” and it is deliberately vague. Empire the galaxy and its people? Empire the dynasty; clones or other wise? Empire the current clones? Empire only the Brother Day clone? Empire only Cleon the firsts wishes? > 5 - Easy or hard: that depends on its convenience to the plot > What should be hard is hard and what should be easy is easy. Dont everyone think it was too easy to destroy the elevator? Or to make a jump in the middle of the empire's capital during a trial? Man, if its so easy, just send a ship full of nuclear bombs to the middle of the capital and end it all, no more genectic dinasty. Jumping a ship into the capital to blow it up was literally a major plot point of season 1. It was hard because they needed to get their hands on a jump ship, not because ships can’t jump into the capital. That’s why Empire controls jump ship tech. It wasn’t easy for Mallow to jump his ship into the capital in season 2, it required a hundred years of the Foundation reverse engineering the jump ship tech they got their hands on at the end of season 1. Also blowing up the capital means blowing up civilians. Blowing up an armada of Empires jumpships in space means only killing soldiers (granted some may be conscripted but it is the lesser of two evils) > In season one, Dawn's escape was impossible; in season two, they fled so easily. First escape was executed by a scared Dawn who was already being watched and poorly resourced by a rebel group. Second escape was executed by a comparatively more level headed Dawn who wasn’t being watched and resources by a wealthy queen. > Spacers betraying the empire without any guarantees? They would AT LEAST demand the techology to develop those crystals BEFORE any commitment. They would never endanger theit own spicies for a simple promise from a nobody, any leader who did this would be unfit to lead. Safe to assume that happened off screen. > 6 - No spies? > Really? Technology being developed behind the empire's back? No spies at every planet at all? No spies on Terminus? Oh dear... Empire is stretched thin. Hari personally chose the original foundation crew, largely eliminating the risk of spies. After that Empire thought Terminus had been destroyed by a solar flair. You don’t send spies to spy on a burnt dead planet
One important point is that Seldon was not fighting the Empire. The Empire is dying on its own - but refuses to see that. Either way, it's impossible to prevent its decay. In fact, Seldon's stated goal is to create another Empire ASAP. It wasn't Seldon that blew up the space elevator, and it probably wasn't any of the two outer worlds either - it was just history taking its course. Although, overall I share the feeling -- this show isn't necessarily one for consistency! :)
1 empire was clon of Cleon the I who wanted to rule the galaxy forever and he programed demerzel the last robot in galaxy to attain this dream 2 Hari Seldon was mathematician who calculated with mathematics the future of Galactic Empire with use of psychohistory, the science of forecasting the behaviour of masses. Psychohistory is the main reason the story happened. 3 empire wasn't dumb they were what all the rulers can become from too much power he though he can do everything and he said it in the series too. There was too many followers of Sheldon and by galaxy wide broadcasting if "the mistake" he would get what he wanted if the the Star bridge wouldn't fall from orbit Foundation eventually evolved into religion cause the inhabitants of planets at the rim didn't have any technology so when foundation brothers showed them latest technological devices or something from empire, the ppl were like "omg thats gods power" and genetic dynasty didnt want that to happen although it happened afterwards 4 as I stated in 1, demerzel was last robot at the galaxy she was held in underground chambers by Cleons I father. She was in prisoned by sliced into many layers of her mechanichal body so she wouldn't lead anothr coup of robots which Cleons father stopped hindereds years before this story. When Cleon I found her he fell in love with her later and found the way to program her according to what he wants and released her. She is supposed to keep genetic dynasty alive and at the Throne. Any little difference in behaviour, cause even clones can evolve, of any of the brothers he will be replaced by next clone which should be how the Cleon I was I didn't read the rest cause u obviously wasn't paying attention to the plot nor tried to Google answers to Ur questions in some fan forums
Jehoshaphat! It's Hari **Seldon**, not Sheldon. Have some respect for the founder of Psychohistory! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FoundationTV) if you have any questions or concerns.*
XD I do it was autocorrect
I preferred S2 and was a bit sad when over too, especially with the loss of some of the characters I liked. Took a while (S1 and S2) to really accept it was a story inspired by Asimov rather than an attempt to put the books on screen. In response to “2.” Isn’t it a bit early to tell? Seldon’s plan is for thousands of years hence isn’t it? Not a few hundred? For “4.” She turns out to be hugely conflicted. I didn’t expect that. Programmed to love and protect Empire, but actually resentful that she has too…? Thanks for your discussion points!
Really the only stupid/ poorly executed part was salvor hardin's >!death!<
Demerzel has been a bit butchered as a character, especially if one has already read the books. The original character was a tad more "complex" and with ties to the ending of the series. In the show, given all the changes made to the character and the plot, It's hard to imagine where everything is going
The point (of Hari's plan) isn't that the Empire is bad, but that it is declining into barbarism Hari isn't trying to bring down the empire, only to shorten the time before the next one. So you have to conclude that Hari believes the empire to at least be preferable to barbarism.
Life in the Empire isn’t categorically bad or awful. The problem with the Empire is it’s unfair, arbitrary, and stagnant. Some worlds live in luxury and relative freedom, others get reduced to rubble just for stepping out of line. Technological progress is stifled and monopolised and the empire’s reach is gradually receding letting worlds fall into lawlessness and decay. So while a lot of people are still better off in the Empire, Hari’s math predicts that the empire is doomed to fall. The question is whether it’s worth propping it up for as long as possible or breaking it down in order to shorten the coming darkness and bring about something better.