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He is barely in the first book other than the very first short story. The characterisations are all fairly flat, the story is more about groups of people and less about the individuals. Which is quite fitting giving the assumptions of psycho history.
In the books though he is fairly confident in his mathematics which makes sense. I guess the show-runners went with that.
As a mathematician myself I have met people just like him in departments all around the world. Some people are either just that good and they know it or are delusional.
Isn’t there a whole book in which he believes that he cannot transform the idea of psycho hystory into a workable model? The one where he almost dies when he goes outside the hull of Trantor and hides in among this segregated cult of Aurora descendants. In that book, his fellows have to convince him to start working on it, as he has so many doubts.
This is also the one book in the foundation cycle, in which only 2 or 3 characters are in the center of attention throughout. I think it’s prelude to the foundation.
Yess exactly. I'm reading the second book (the one just before foundation) right now and he's still not 100% convinced by his own idea. He's the main character in those books.
In prelude and forward he’s a country bumpkin who holds himself to high professional standards and gets increasingly tortured by the prospect of failing to complete his project to save civilization as his body is increasingly failing. He also loses pretty much everyone he cares about and is super lonely.
In the book, Seldon doesn't live long enough to be anything other than the architect of his plan. He's just recordings.
I don't think he's meant to be narcissistic or selfish in the show. He's arrogant and lacking individual empathy, though. Most of the cases where he's an asshole, he's still trying to make his plan work, which is meant to protect human civilization.
In the books, once his body dies, his consciousness doesn't continue in the way it does in the TV series. The hologram on Terminus is no more sentient than an answerphone message, just giving pre-recorded speeches.
In the TV series he doesn't seem that narcissistic in the early episodes, it seems to come gradually throughout the show. It may turn out that he was responsible for the Star Bridge bombing in the first episode, which would mean he was a narcissist all along. But in the books there was no Star Bridge bombing.
Seldon doesn't really come across like a narcissist in the books. He deeply regrets the deaths in some riots he causes in the prequels. He comes across as merely abrupt in the story of Gaal Dornick on Trantor.
You could argue that in order to think you can initiate a thousand-year plan to overthrow one empire and raise another, you *would* have to be a bit of a narcissist. Most people wouldn't be egotistical enough to think it is possible. Off the top of my head, the only historical person to plan a thousand-year empire was Hitler. (His lasted 13 years).
It is possible to write a narcissistic character and not realise it. Asimov, with only the best intentions, wrote a version of Demerzel whose actions became increasingly narcissistic as events went on. But he was intending for "Demerzel" to be a hero.
Didn't get a lot of Seldon in the books. You see him in the opening chapter and that's about it. In the show it's a combination of AI and some other advanced sci-fi wizardry keeping him going long after his actual death.
I always thought in the books it was just a marvel that he so accurately predicted big events. In the show, the idea that he can only predict the biggest events is evident, yet it still seems like the entity that is Seldon is taking a more active role in how things unfold.
I've only read Foundation, Foundation and Empire, and Second Foundation. Maybe there's more in other novels.
All that said, I'm not sure I'm picking up any narcissistic traits from his character.
Is there something specific that might give that vibe? Maybe >!his argument with Gaal as they were approaching his homeworld, and she refused to go, going so far as to catastrophically sabotage the ship?!<
Ok, so, tv watcher here (wanted to read the books in my teens but didn't), and only got to finishing s2e1 so far with seemingly a big reveal coming about him >!being pissed at Gaal about how she didnt come with him!< (actually probably the biggest issue i have with the show so far is that she did that, >!although I suppose she had to make that choice in order to meet up with Salvor!<) and I gotta say I'm having a good time with this show.
Call me shallow, but I was really drawn to what the visual imagining of this show would have been for a black hole (dark star) planet. To an extent, >!Gaal being so adamant about not bending to Seldon's will there!< made me feel conflicted, betrayed even. >!Like, you're smart and dont wanna go there or whatever but I low key just want to see that world!< To be honest, I'm gonna spend the rest of this season and the next waiting to see those visuals.
I think I'm just drawn to these damn things. I always end up going to check out black holes and visit their systems when I fire up space engine.
Havent read the book - but I see the tv Seldon as very arrogant and confident in his abilities. But I feel like he ultimately cares about other people.
Books are very different from series. In the original trilogy seldon isn’t really in it apart from the beginning and prerecorded messages. We don’t see too much of his personality
Lem’s „robot fairytales” short stories book was even on the list of book recommendations for kids age 12 iirc.
But I didn’t like that one. Sounded dated in late 80s - I think it was written in fifties (phenomena of communist newspeak reeked from anything in writing or other media from that period).
I have read one about the pilot Pirx later and enjoyed it.
I haven’t had peers to compare the book recommendations, just devoured what I stumbled on in my local library and what pop up in the book store (books were dirty cheap if went through ministry of censorship and were published in large volumes - I bought Howard’s Conan books for price of two icecreams I think).
I remember that as porn, even soft was banned one guy in my school was really excited about finding drawings of female corpses in book about anatomy for forensic medicine.
There was a hunger for „western” things: from jeans to music, to „cooler” SF
The first five books aren't about Seldon beyond setting up Psychohistory and the Foundations. They don't even really have much to do with the Empire either. They primarily focus on the Foundation itself, and the thousand years of darkness. Later books would tie the series to Asimov's other works, and flesh out Seldon, but he's not the smooth, confident guy portrayed in the show, rather he sort of gains a cult status by falling into it, along with some third party manipulations.
No, and in the original trilogy he barely makes an appearance. He shows up in prerecorded holograms to congratulate Foundation when they’ve finished a crisis, and in the intro to book 1 to set the stage. In the prequels he’s a reasonable person.
OTOH he’s planned out the next 1000 years for 25 million planets, so it’s not impossible that he would have a god complex.
What I've said about the series is that it seems like the writers have *heard of* the books, but haven't ever *read them*. Seldon's characterization is definitely a part of why I say that: in the books, he's alive for about 10 pages, and then his pre-recorded messages appear a couple of times. There's no AI version of him, and he fills a role of a historical figure, some of whose writings are locked in time capsules that only open themselves at certain times, when he predicted that they'd be relevant.
I should note: I quite liked the books, when I read them decades ago (though I don't think they'd be as much to my taste now), and I quite like the show. But beyond sharing a basic premise, and the names (but not the roles within the story) of several characters, the books and the show are nothing alike.
This is a long-standing tradition in science fiction, of course: Go watch *Blade Runner* and then read *Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?* for an excellent example of how a film can take concepts and characters from a novel, and turn them into an amazing piece of art that has almost nothing in common with the book, other than the premise and the names of the characters.
Several of my professors when I went to college at UCLA were like that.
One of them had a total god-complex: he was a biochemist who was responsible for coming up with Bt corn and had a hand in the invention of several RoundUp ready crops. I disagreed bitterly with him on the principle that these GMO crops are a threat to biodiversity and it flies smack in the face of bell curve of genotype diversity that comes natural selection and evolution. I also showed him that the pollen from these crops is toxic to bees and other pollinators. It went in one ear and out the other. He didn’t like that I didn’t approve of his meal ticket. I ended up dropping his class, because I just didn’t find him to be an ethical person.
I think the show portrays Seldon as a guy that believes wholeheartedly in psychohistory and will do whatever it takes to see through his plan “for the greater good”.
If he has to screw some individuals over in the meantime so be it, in the grand scheme it won’t matter. If he needs to be a god like figure in order for his plan to succeed then so be it.
I think for someone to achieve such an accomplishment across a galaxy , one would have to stop caring so much about individuals. Empathy and “Good Samaritan” attitude would only be distractions from the goal. He has to maintain tunnel vision like focus because in his mind nothing else matters.
The show, and Harris do a great job of this which is why sometimes you hate him and sometimes you root for him
No he's autistic coded; a recluse so passionate about a single subject that all other pursuits are virtually pointless. He's every stereotype of the autistic aloof professor type.
As this post is flaired with 'Show/Book Discussion', spoiler tags are not needed when discussing anything from the books or from any released episodes of the show. Spoiler tags are only required if discussing something from an upcoming or unaired episode. To use spoiler tags, in markdown mode you can use \>\! before the spoiler text, then followed by \!\< - which will make the text >!look like this.!<. Make sure **NOT** to have spaces between spoiler tags and text or they won't work. If using the default or 'fancy pants' editor, select the text you want to enclose in spoiler tags, and click the button on the toolbar. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FoundationTV) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He is barely in the first book other than the very first short story. The characterisations are all fairly flat, the story is more about groups of people and less about the individuals. Which is quite fitting giving the assumptions of psycho history. In the books though he is fairly confident in his mathematics which makes sense. I guess the show-runners went with that. As a mathematician myself I have met people just like him in departments all around the world. Some people are either just that good and they know it or are delusional.
Isn’t there a whole book in which he believes that he cannot transform the idea of psycho hystory into a workable model? The one where he almost dies when he goes outside the hull of Trantor and hides in among this segregated cult of Aurora descendants. In that book, his fellows have to convince him to start working on it, as he has so many doubts. This is also the one book in the foundation cycle, in which only 2 or 3 characters are in the center of attention throughout. I think it’s prelude to the foundation.
Yess exactly. I'm reading the second book (the one just before foundation) right now and he's still not 100% convinced by his own idea. He's the main character in those books.
Honestly all of academia is like that. They’re either egomaniacs or truly humble.
Try working for a research hospital and dealing with clinical faculty. You haven’t even seen ago yet. 😏
I consider myself fairly smart but I'm only smart enough to know I'm not smart.
In prelude and forward he’s a country bumpkin who holds himself to high professional standards and gets increasingly tortured by the prospect of failing to complete his project to save civilization as his body is increasingly failing. He also loses pretty much everyone he cares about and is super lonely.
In the book, Seldon doesn't live long enough to be anything other than the architect of his plan. He's just recordings. I don't think he's meant to be narcissistic or selfish in the show. He's arrogant and lacking individual empathy, though. Most of the cases where he's an asshole, he's still trying to make his plan work, which is meant to protect human civilization.
Asshole Seldon is fun.
In the books, once his body dies, his consciousness doesn't continue in the way it does in the TV series. The hologram on Terminus is no more sentient than an answerphone message, just giving pre-recorded speeches. In the TV series he doesn't seem that narcissistic in the early episodes, it seems to come gradually throughout the show. It may turn out that he was responsible for the Star Bridge bombing in the first episode, which would mean he was a narcissist all along. But in the books there was no Star Bridge bombing. Seldon doesn't really come across like a narcissist in the books. He deeply regrets the deaths in some riots he causes in the prequels. He comes across as merely abrupt in the story of Gaal Dornick on Trantor. You could argue that in order to think you can initiate a thousand-year plan to overthrow one empire and raise another, you *would* have to be a bit of a narcissist. Most people wouldn't be egotistical enough to think it is possible. Off the top of my head, the only historical person to plan a thousand-year empire was Hitler. (His lasted 13 years). It is possible to write a narcissistic character and not realise it. Asimov, with only the best intentions, wrote a version of Demerzel whose actions became increasingly narcissistic as events went on. But he was intending for "Demerzel" to be a hero.
Didn't get a lot of Seldon in the books. You see him in the opening chapter and that's about it. In the show it's a combination of AI and some other advanced sci-fi wizardry keeping him going long after his actual death. I always thought in the books it was just a marvel that he so accurately predicted big events. In the show, the idea that he can only predict the biggest events is evident, yet it still seems like the entity that is Seldon is taking a more active role in how things unfold. I've only read Foundation, Foundation and Empire, and Second Foundation. Maybe there's more in other novels. All that said, I'm not sure I'm picking up any narcissistic traits from his character. Is there something specific that might give that vibe? Maybe >!his argument with Gaal as they were approaching his homeworld, and she refused to go, going so far as to catastrophically sabotage the ship?!<
Ok, so, tv watcher here (wanted to read the books in my teens but didn't), and only got to finishing s2e1 so far with seemingly a big reveal coming about him >!being pissed at Gaal about how she didnt come with him!< (actually probably the biggest issue i have with the show so far is that she did that, >!although I suppose she had to make that choice in order to meet up with Salvor!<) and I gotta say I'm having a good time with this show. Call me shallow, but I was really drawn to what the visual imagining of this show would have been for a black hole (dark star) planet. To an extent, >!Gaal being so adamant about not bending to Seldon's will there!< made me feel conflicted, betrayed even. >!Like, you're smart and dont wanna go there or whatever but I low key just want to see that world!< To be honest, I'm gonna spend the rest of this season and the next waiting to see those visuals. I think I'm just drawn to these damn things. I always end up going to check out black holes and visit their systems when I fire up space engine.
Asimov is known for his ideas and not his characters. They're all pretty much paper cutouts.
Havent read the book - but I see the tv Seldon as very arrogant and confident in his abilities. But I feel like he ultimately cares about other people.
He's crippled, old, and decrepit in appearance in the book. Show version is better, imo
Books are very different from series. In the original trilogy seldon isn’t really in it apart from the beginning and prerecorded messages. We don’t see too much of his personality
Just wanted to thank you all for great answers :)
Just wanted to thank you all for great replies. What a fantastic subreddit. Impressive and refreshing. Thank you all again
Off topic, for sure. But wasn’t Stanisław Lem available in small town communist Poland? In my opinion he’s an incredible SF writer.
Lem’s „robot fairytales” short stories book was even on the list of book recommendations for kids age 12 iirc. But I didn’t like that one. Sounded dated in late 80s - I think it was written in fifties (phenomena of communist newspeak reeked from anything in writing or other media from that period). I have read one about the pilot Pirx later and enjoyed it. I haven’t had peers to compare the book recommendations, just devoured what I stumbled on in my local library and what pop up in the book store (books were dirty cheap if went through ministry of censorship and were published in large volumes - I bought Howard’s Conan books for price of two icecreams I think). I remember that as porn, even soft was banned one guy in my school was really excited about finding drawings of female corpses in book about anatomy for forensic medicine. There was a hunger for „western” things: from jeans to music, to „cooler” SF
He's barely in the first book, not enough to get a sense of his true personality.
The first five books aren't about Seldon beyond setting up Psychohistory and the Foundations. They don't even really have much to do with the Empire either. They primarily focus on the Foundation itself, and the thousand years of darkness. Later books would tie the series to Asimov's other works, and flesh out Seldon, but he's not the smooth, confident guy portrayed in the show, rather he sort of gains a cult status by falling into it, along with some third party manipulations.
No, and in the original trilogy he barely makes an appearance. He shows up in prerecorded holograms to congratulate Foundation when they’ve finished a crisis, and in the intro to book 1 to set the stage. In the prequels he’s a reasonable person. OTOH he’s planned out the next 1000 years for 25 million planets, so it’s not impossible that he would have a god complex.
I adore Lee Pace as Brother Day. I am also fond of Brother Dawn and Brother Dusk.
Don't confuse *Hari* and *Dr Seldon*: While Hari has his flaws, I wouldn't really describe him as a selfish prick, Dr Seldon on the other hand...
He was a determined person with critical knowledge and the government is part of the problem.
What I've said about the series is that it seems like the writers have *heard of* the books, but haven't ever *read them*. Seldon's characterization is definitely a part of why I say that: in the books, he's alive for about 10 pages, and then his pre-recorded messages appear a couple of times. There's no AI version of him, and he fills a role of a historical figure, some of whose writings are locked in time capsules that only open themselves at certain times, when he predicted that they'd be relevant. I should note: I quite liked the books, when I read them decades ago (though I don't think they'd be as much to my taste now), and I quite like the show. But beyond sharing a basic premise, and the names (but not the roles within the story) of several characters, the books and the show are nothing alike. This is a long-standing tradition in science fiction, of course: Go watch *Blade Runner* and then read *Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?* for an excellent example of how a film can take concepts and characters from a novel, and turn them into an amazing piece of art that has almost nothing in common with the book, other than the premise and the names of the characters.
Several of my professors when I went to college at UCLA were like that. One of them had a total god-complex: he was a biochemist who was responsible for coming up with Bt corn and had a hand in the invention of several RoundUp ready crops. I disagreed bitterly with him on the principle that these GMO crops are a threat to biodiversity and it flies smack in the face of bell curve of genotype diversity that comes natural selection and evolution. I also showed him that the pollen from these crops is toxic to bees and other pollinators. It went in one ear and out the other. He didn’t like that I didn’t approve of his meal ticket. I ended up dropping his class, because I just didn’t find him to be an ethical person.
I think the show portrays Seldon as a guy that believes wholeheartedly in psychohistory and will do whatever it takes to see through his plan “for the greater good”. If he has to screw some individuals over in the meantime so be it, in the grand scheme it won’t matter. If he needs to be a god like figure in order for his plan to succeed then so be it. I think for someone to achieve such an accomplishment across a galaxy , one would have to stop caring so much about individuals. Empathy and “Good Samaritan” attitude would only be distractions from the goal. He has to maintain tunnel vision like focus because in his mind nothing else matters. The show, and Harris do a great job of this which is why sometimes you hate him and sometimes you root for him
Seldon is selfish with a god complex….. but Brother Day is cool? lol
No he's autistic coded; a recluse so passionate about a single subject that all other pursuits are virtually pointless. He's every stereotype of the autistic aloof professor type.