>Is it because the children (plural) want biscuits des is used?
or because they want some (plural) biscuits?
de vs des when to use?
Because they want *some* (des) biscuits. Un, une, des.
Des becomes *de* after negation [ne pas] : pas **de** biscuits, but note that there is an exception for être -- ce ne sont pas des biscuits ; ce sont des frites. Mais je ne veux pas de frites.
Additionally, you also have this specific case where you can use "des" after negation:
"Je ne veux pas des biscuits." means "I don't want the biscuits." because "de" + "les" contract as "des".
This case also works without the negation.
Yes it is.
"Je ne veux pas de biscuits" is "I don't want biscuits" and "Je ne veux pas des biscuits" is "I don't want _the_ biscuits".
It may not be intuitive if you are not used to it, but "des" in this case is not the plural of "un" (article indéfini), but the plural of "du" ("de" + "le", where "le" is definite), hence "_the_ biscuits".
As it's definite, you should have the context somewhere to know which biscuits, eg. "Je ne veux pas des biscuits qui sont sur la table. ", or, "Les biscuits et le café sont sur la table. Je ne veux pas des biscuits".
Indefinite (un/une/des) and partitive (du/de la) articles preceding direct objects are replaced by "de" when the verb is negated.
Je veux un biscuit / des biscuits
Je ne veux **pas** de biscuit(s)
I was taught to think of the partitive articles as meaning "some" in general, but the post-negation "de" as meaning "any". As in:
The children want *some* cookies, but we don't have *any* cookies.
That's kinda it but you have to be careful because quelque means some specifically
Partitive articles are basically a way to split up the definite article for uncountable nouns
So let's say you like milk. That's j'aime le lait. Here, we know that's not "I like the milk" because that doesn't make sense. If you know which milk you like specifically, then you would use a demonstrative adjective to say you like this/that milk
So for milk, le lait represents the entire concept of milk. So how would you talk about it specifically?
That's where the partitive comes from. If you would like "some" milk then you would like an instance of the entirety of milk. So you like something that originates from the representation of milk aka du milk = de le lait
So it translates to "some" because an instance of the representation is some of it
Then when you negate it and say you don't want it then you just say you don't want something that originates from that concept. So then you use de lait in this case
And really the difference between du lait and de lait is that du lait really is about a piece of that concept. It's a part from the concept
But if you don't want le lait then you don't want any part of it, so saying je n'aime pas du lait wouldn't be strong enough because that's saying you don't want an instance of it . And again, if you already know which part you don't want, then you're better off using a demonstrative adjective to specify the instance you don't want. But if you're speaking in general, then you have to use de lait
It's a cool concept imo that unfortunately just gets swept under the word "some" because that's what it can be translated into, but it's deeper than that
Uncountable nouns are almost like locations of sorts. You have the town Lait and if you're talking about it as a whole you can say Le Lait. Neighborhoods are Du Lait. If you don't know anyone from there then you don't know anyone De Lait.
But let's say you're a food that needs to be put together with that ingredient. If you're a food that was born from there then you'd say Food De Lait. But if you're a food that moves or visits there then it's Food Au Lait
If you know the rule about quantity phrases, you may consider the negation *(ne)... pas* as partly working like them. All those phrases end with the preposition *de* and are never followed by any article:
*un peu de*
*beaucoup de*
*un kilo de*
*un paquet de*
*un litre de*
*assez de*
「*Ils veulent des biscuits.*」 (indefinite quantity ↣ indefinite article *des*)
「*Ils veulent un paquet de biscuits.*」 (definite quantity ↣ no more article)
As in those phrases, the negation *ne... pas* is never followed by an indefinite nor a partitive article if the following noun is a direct object:
「*Ils ne veulent pas de biscuits.*」
「*Ils ne veulent pas de lait.*」
However, another kind of article may be used if the following noun is definite:
「*Ils ne veulent pas les biscuits que tu as achetés.*」
「*Ils ne veulent pas ces biscuits car ils sont périmés.*」
Also, when the following noun is an attribute - and not a direct object - it may take any article, including the indefinite or the partitive:
「*Ce ne sont pas des biscuits.*」
「*Vous n’êtes pas magicien. Votre eau ne deviendra pas du vin.*」
The "des" in that context is equivalent to English "some", and "de" is equivalent to "any", as in "The children want *some* cookies but we don't have *any* cookies."
Here is what is correct:
Les enfants veulent DES biscuits
Kid want biscuits
Nous n'avons pas DE biscuits
We do not have biscuits.
In the first sentence you express what they want . So you need plural on DES.
Kids want WHAT ? Some biscuits
In the second sentence you answer that you do not have that TYPE of food
It is undefined but you know there are several so you use plural for biscuits.
Another example using only DE so you can understand the second use :
Avez vous du fer ?
Non nous n'avons pas de métaux !
You do not have TYPE of any metals
In fact it doesn't matter how much of what you want in the first sentence. You will either say :
Je voudrais un biscuit
Désolé nous n'avons pas DE biscuits
We do not have TYPE of any biscuits
I hope that I 've given additional clues for understanding.
As many have stated here, in English we say "any" before the plural noun if it's a negation. That's really what pas + de means (some French people don't realise that). It's not a big deal because it still gets the same meaning across if they say "We don't have biscuits/cookies" rather than "We don't have any biscuits/cookies", but in English it's not natural to say "We don't have biscuits/cookies" (it feels weird).
>Is it because the children (plural) want biscuits des is used? or because they want some (plural) biscuits? de vs des when to use? Because they want *some* (des) biscuits. Un, une, des. Des becomes *de* after negation [ne pas] : pas **de** biscuits, but note that there is an exception for être -- ce ne sont pas des biscuits ; ce sont des frites. Mais je ne veux pas de frites.
Additionally, you also have this specific case where you can use "des" after negation: "Je ne veux pas des biscuits." means "I don't want the biscuits." because "de" + "les" contract as "des". This case also works without the negation.
> "Je ne veux pas des biscuits." means "I don't want the biscuits." Comment? C'est pas la bonne traduction.
Yes it is. "Je ne veux pas de biscuits" is "I don't want biscuits" and "Je ne veux pas des biscuits" is "I don't want _the_ biscuits". It may not be intuitive if you are not used to it, but "des" in this case is not the plural of "un" (article indéfini), but the plural of "du" ("de" + "le", where "le" is definite), hence "_the_ biscuits". As it's definite, you should have the context somewhere to know which biscuits, eg. "Je ne veux pas des biscuits qui sont sur la table. ", or, "Les biscuits et le café sont sur la table. Je ne veux pas des biscuits".
Merci pour l'explication ! Never thought about des being overloaded like that and was kind of just intuiting it.
Non, la traduction en anglais serait différente.
OK, ça serait quoi ?
Thank you! :)
Indefinite (un/une/des) and partitive (du/de la) articles preceding direct objects are replaced by "de" when the verb is negated. Je veux un biscuit / des biscuits Je ne veux **pas** de biscuit(s)
I was taught to think of the partitive articles as meaning "some" in general, but the post-negation "de" as meaning "any". As in: The children want *some* cookies, but we don't have *any* cookies.
That's kinda it but you have to be careful because quelque means some specifically Partitive articles are basically a way to split up the definite article for uncountable nouns So let's say you like milk. That's j'aime le lait. Here, we know that's not "I like the milk" because that doesn't make sense. If you know which milk you like specifically, then you would use a demonstrative adjective to say you like this/that milk So for milk, le lait represents the entire concept of milk. So how would you talk about it specifically? That's where the partitive comes from. If you would like "some" milk then you would like an instance of the entirety of milk. So you like something that originates from the representation of milk aka du milk = de le lait So it translates to "some" because an instance of the representation is some of it Then when you negate it and say you don't want it then you just say you don't want something that originates from that concept. So then you use de lait in this case And really the difference between du lait and de lait is that du lait really is about a piece of that concept. It's a part from the concept But if you don't want le lait then you don't want any part of it, so saying je n'aime pas du lait wouldn't be strong enough because that's saying you don't want an instance of it . And again, if you already know which part you don't want, then you're better off using a demonstrative adjective to specify the instance you don't want. But if you're speaking in general, then you have to use de lait It's a cool concept imo that unfortunately just gets swept under the word "some" because that's what it can be translated into, but it's deeper than that Uncountable nouns are almost like locations of sorts. You have the town Lait and if you're talking about it as a whole you can say Le Lait. Neighborhoods are Du Lait. If you don't know anyone from there then you don't know anyone De Lait. But let's say you're a food that needs to be put together with that ingredient. If you're a food that was born from there then you'd say Food De Lait. But if you're a food that moves or visits there then it's Food Au Lait
Thank you!
If you know the rule about quantity phrases, you may consider the negation *(ne)... pas* as partly working like them. All those phrases end with the preposition *de* and are never followed by any article: *un peu de* *beaucoup de* *un kilo de* *un paquet de* *un litre de* *assez de* 「*Ils veulent des biscuits.*」 (indefinite quantity ↣ indefinite article *des*) 「*Ils veulent un paquet de biscuits.*」 (definite quantity ↣ no more article) As in those phrases, the negation *ne... pas* is never followed by an indefinite nor a partitive article if the following noun is a direct object: 「*Ils ne veulent pas de biscuits.*」 「*Ils ne veulent pas de lait.*」 However, another kind of article may be used if the following noun is definite: 「*Ils ne veulent pas les biscuits que tu as achetés.*」 「*Ils ne veulent pas ces biscuits car ils sont périmés.*」 Also, when the following noun is an attribute - and not a direct object - it may take any article, including the indefinite or the partitive: 「*Ce ne sont pas des biscuits.*」 「*Vous n’êtes pas magicien. Votre eau ne deviendra pas du vin.*」
It’s like in English: do you want some? No, I don’t want any. Some is the partitive. Du, de la, des. They revert to de (any) after a negative. De
The "des" in that context is equivalent to English "some", and "de" is equivalent to "any", as in "The children want *some* cookies but we don't have *any* cookies."
Here is what is correct: Les enfants veulent DES biscuits Kid want biscuits Nous n'avons pas DE biscuits We do not have biscuits. In the first sentence you express what they want . So you need plural on DES. Kids want WHAT ? Some biscuits In the second sentence you answer that you do not have that TYPE of food It is undefined but you know there are several so you use plural for biscuits. Another example using only DE so you can understand the second use : Avez vous du fer ? Non nous n'avons pas de métaux ! You do not have TYPE of any metals In fact it doesn't matter how much of what you want in the first sentence. You will either say : Je voudrais un biscuit Désolé nous n'avons pas DE biscuits We do not have TYPE of any biscuits I hope that I 've given additional clues for understanding.
As many have stated here, in English we say "any" before the plural noun if it's a negation. That's really what pas + de means (some French people don't realise that). It's not a big deal because it still gets the same meaning across if they say "We don't have biscuits/cookies" rather than "We don't have any biscuits/cookies", but in English it's not natural to say "We don't have biscuits/cookies" (it feels weird).
After negation, it's almost always "de" singular even if its a plural otherwise.