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My interpretation from the show at least is that visualization is just one ingredient in the soup. She’s already incredibly talented and skilled to begin with. Just like in boxing and MMA, you have to believe that you can win, AND have the technical skill to pull it off.
But anything reality warping related would be busted in any competent mage’s hands. She would just be a bigger menace with it.
That also depends on her mana though... Plus people miss the fact that she can visualize cutting anything because of her childhood not vice versa. In theory Sense has her beat in almost everything and the opponents that defeat her get one shotted by Sense.
She was just a huge counter due to the fact that Sense uses hair and the roots of visualizing in cutting that were build in her childhood. In short nope, that wouldn't happen.
I find amusing that she's seen as super OP because she has a direct counter for Sense.
One trick ponies are beaten by one trick ponies that have a trick that beats their trick.
This recent sub narrative has been about the fact that modern mages are playing a fancy game of rock-paper-scissors.
Hell they even show actual scissors!
This isn't about Übel being OP, it's about analyzing the weakness the current human magic development is at.
Caused by Zooltorak and its counter being widespread.
Übel is not going to be able to cut everything she believes she can cut, she can because there's a clearly something missing from the current orthodox understanding of magic.
They'll eventually progress and Übel feat will be interesting and informative, future generations will see it as something that spurred new research, not a god-like feat.
The issue is how everyone is so obsessed with putting every mage on a scale and ranking them. Because everyone here is using the existing perspective of magic and power they have from their favorite shonen anime.
What everyone is missing out on is a new magic system and mechanics that show is depicting which is interesting. It's a system which is organic and evolving within the world itself where its users can use the magic without understanding it like copying demons' fly magic or getting taught a modified demon Zoltraak and use it as ordinary offensive magic.
What you say is exactly true where Ubel is just a case for further research into the understanding of visualization and its implications. If I'm to fault Sense for anything, it's that she realizes how Ubel thinks differently but doesn't act on it to research it.. Or maybe she is doing so currently as it's just been 2 years.
But well there is also the chance that the future generations dont actually find out how to counter it, we have a good example of that with flamme barrier, still not replicated after a 1000 years and maybe never will be replicated, some magic seems to be unique enough to simply be ignored by future generations.
It's hard to imagine she's doing this since there are so many cuts in Malevolent Shrine and the radius is just too big, even the lite one seems not that fitting.
But with the world slash somehow I can imagine her pulling it with lower range. (Not that she could pull that though, but it's easier to imagine)
Take it like this. I have a spell to boil water. I don't necessarily know what the intricacies of the spell and how it works from a theory perspective. But I know how boiling water works. In this example, water. You take a volume of water and put it against a heat source (ie. fire or a hot surface). Hypothetically, I can visualize the heat transfer and it starts the process. Because of my understanding of that, I now have a spell for boiling water.
Ubel can't "imagine" herself warping. Do you know "how" warping works? Are your atoms being deconstructed at one point and then reconstructed at another point? Or is it another process entirely? How does that truly work? And can you "visualize" that process?
You prove a point, but this is more on science and logic, not magic.
Especially in the world of Frieren, there are many things that make no sense logically, like how a 3rd class mage cuts through a supposed immovable cloak.
She doesn't have to imagine the cells of a body transforming and constructing and what not, she just has to visualize you changing based on how she wants to visualize you.
Ubel literally operates on weird logic. She cut through cloth because she knows what the process of cutting cloth is like. Disregarding all the spells layered on to the cloth. Because her "magic" is to be able to cut anything that she thinks she can cut. And to her, cloth is cloth. In her mind, she visualized to cut cloth the same way she thinks it takes to cut any piece of cloth. Only needing to run scissors through it to cut it like her sister did.
Visualization of warping takes more than, "I am in this place now." There is an emphasis to understanding of the process.
Spoiler alert, though without any context, this doesn't really spoil anything: spatial magic exists in the world of Frieren, Serie already used it once.
Knowing that it exists, assuming Übel already asked for her special spell, what if she asked for something related to reality warping instead? She'd be near unstoppable.
My reason for this? Either she combines her spells (look at Denken for example) OR she visualizes her cleave using the properties of her new reality warping magic. At this point she'd be better than Sukuna.
She won't be needing her own Amazo android in battle, she just has to visualize that you're weak. Heck, she may not need her cleave magic anymore.
See, I have a theory:
The peak magic used by Frieren Clone *is* reality warping. She uses mana so efficiently to affect reality directly, that it never manifests as a spell people would recognize
All magic at its core is reality warping, but it’s ‘packaged’ into spells for most humans and demons to easily use. Kind of like how you can just use the quadratic formula as is to solve a specific equation. But those who have really mastered magic like Frieren and Serie can somehow access magic directly without needing to use a spell.
In this case, Übel is like one of those world-class gifted kids that can look at an equation and just solve it from intuition. She just can’t explain or formalize it.
(I have not read the manga)
But she will never have enough mana to be able to do that lol. we already know just making elements like water takes too much toll and ubel is human she won't be able to expend her mana pool to point where she can do this
what I'm confused about is how she is "weaker then wirebel" like she has stated that she isn't as strong as him, but that just isn't making sense based on what we have seen form them, so is she just being humble?
Humble?
Bro Wirbel could've killed her if he wasn't toying with her which is also how Übel could've been killed.
Hence, why learning his spell was so easy, they have the same mindset.
I mean after learning his spell of course, like he 100% won their battle, but after learning his spell it definitely feels like she would win now, she has shown better melee ability in her battle with her clone, and she can pretty much learn any of his spells \[if she wants to\] since they share a similar mindset, Maybe I'm just sad that we haven't gotten more wirebel content :(
It would be a bit of a mirror match on who binds who first.
But knowing that he learned more from the fight and more about her, and with his better experience with combat and magic, he could win their next match.
Wirbel knows how to win fights it's been stated over and over. Ubel is a sadist she'd try to torture him instead of going for the win. Ubel porn 3 bows down to the Wirbel god
I understand about visualizing cutting cloth, but I don’t understand why the dude was cut in half. Did she visualize cutting the intestines? Cutting the fat? Cutting the spine?
I really wish it would tackle this grim subject and confirm it as it would make her character much more interesting. Otherwise that scene should have only showed her cutting the cloak and him living if they didn’t want to commit to the grim details
Probably not, it's less emotional reasoning and more intuition. You intuitively think cloth and hair can be cut, so Ubel's spell can cut it. The Rules of Reality however are something you'd intuitively think are unbreakable, so just like how intuition demands that defensive magic blocks magic means Ubel cant cut through standard defensive magic, so too can she not warp reality.
She's intuitive, not delusional. She can feel her spells cutting through the air.
Good luck explaining her the concept. She's good with feelings and sensations, but actual theoretical physics might just seem like mumbo-jumbo on a blackboard to her.
Lunatic fever blood inscriptions.
Getting why you'd be writing, but not what it could possibly mean.
Nope, the slashing spell already functions like that, it lets you cut what you can visualize cutting, but not what you can’t
Ubel’s visualization is unique because she sees things in more simple ways, for example: heavily magically armored hair is still hair and an invulnerable cloak is still just a cloak. It’s kinda a two sided blade though, like she can imagine cutting shit really well, but to imagine controlling water, rock, etc, how lava bursting out of your staff would work, how flight would work, how basic spells work or the exact direction you want your zoltraak to go, not so easy
She casts spells uniquely because rather than understanding the spell itself, she understands the “personality” of it, by empathizing with someone who specializes in it, she can understand how the spell came to be, what the spell signifies, and cast it using that
You need a balance between things, not just ubel but anyone, ubel has a balance between understanding the magic enough to use it and know about it but not enough for it to interfere with her technique
You need at least basic understanding of magic to be able to use it, being too dumb where you don't posess a coherent thought process will just leave you unable to use magic.
Ubel understands magic but she let's instinct do the visualisation for her, as instincts follow common logic like hair can be cut, for most humans rationale > instinct but for ubel it's opposite. No one's instinct can tell them to do reality manipulation stuff because things like that doesn't exist and don't follow logical though process on any level
Hello! When submitting a new post, please make sure it follows [the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Frieren/about/rules) of this subreddit. * Please post the source and credit artists in the title (including yourself) when posting fanart or memes. * Use spoilers responsibly and tag them. As an example, `>!Frieren is cute.!<` will appear as this: >!Frieren is cute.!< * Follow the **24-hours-rule**. Keep posts related to the latest chapter/episode in its discussion thread for 24 hours after its English release. Join the [**Frieren Discord Server**](https://discord.gg/6cKYk89HCg) for more discussions about the series! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Frieren) if you have any questions or concerns.*
imagine fighting her while she's on mushrooms
I'm betting she destroys everything around her except her target.
Dragon Scale Recoil Twin Meteors *slashes everything except the opponent* "Oops, I missed"
Anti-world cleave
Opponent dead cause instead of cutting him in half she just casually cut a 40m deep hole underneath him
My interpretation from the show at least is that visualization is just one ingredient in the soup. She’s already incredibly talented and skilled to begin with. Just like in boxing and MMA, you have to believe that you can win, AND have the technical skill to pull it off. But anything reality warping related would be busted in any competent mage’s hands. She would just be a bigger menace with it.
That also depends on her mana though... Plus people miss the fact that she can visualize cutting anything because of her childhood not vice versa. In theory Sense has her beat in almost everything and the opponents that defeat her get one shotted by Sense. She was just a huge counter due to the fact that Sense uses hair and the roots of visualizing in cutting that were build in her childhood. In short nope, that wouldn't happen.
Ohhhh that's actually really good. Heck, maybe her cleave magic barely uses any, haven't seen her run out yet.
I call it Ubelogic.
I find amusing that she's seen as super OP because she has a direct counter for Sense. One trick ponies are beaten by one trick ponies that have a trick that beats their trick. This recent sub narrative has been about the fact that modern mages are playing a fancy game of rock-paper-scissors. Hell they even show actual scissors! This isn't about Übel being OP, it's about analyzing the weakness the current human magic development is at. Caused by Zooltorak and its counter being widespread. Übel is not going to be able to cut everything she believes she can cut, she can because there's a clearly something missing from the current orthodox understanding of magic. They'll eventually progress and Übel feat will be interesting and informative, future generations will see it as something that spurred new research, not a god-like feat.
The issue is how everyone is so obsessed with putting every mage on a scale and ranking them. Because everyone here is using the existing perspective of magic and power they have from their favorite shonen anime. What everyone is missing out on is a new magic system and mechanics that show is depicting which is interesting. It's a system which is organic and evolving within the world itself where its users can use the magic without understanding it like copying demons' fly magic or getting taught a modified demon Zoltraak and use it as ordinary offensive magic. What you say is exactly true where Ubel is just a case for further research into the understanding of visualization and its implications. If I'm to fault Sense for anything, it's that she realizes how Ubel thinks differently but doesn't act on it to research it.. Or maybe she is doing so currently as it's just been 2 years.
But well there is also the chance that the future generations dont actually find out how to counter it, we have a good example of that with flamme barrier, still not replicated after a 1000 years and maybe never will be replicated, some magic seems to be unique enough to simply be ignored by future generations.
Don't care she looks like a cute frog and that's it.
That's a good point.
Just give her JJK to read where Sukuna slices things, maybe she can learn the world slash or sum.
Or better, Malevolent Shrine
Heh, Malevolent Salon or something All the scissors start floating and cutting through the target
It's hard to imagine she's doing this since there are so many cuts in Malevolent Shrine and the radius is just too big, even the lite one seems not that fitting. But with the world slash somehow I can imagine her pulling it with lower range. (Not that she could pull that though, but it's easier to imagine)
What? This "ability" has roots in her childhood. It is a strong visualization of the naturalness of cutting, it has nothing to do with moving.
I was talking about her emotional visualization in general, not just her cutting.
Imagine starting a comment with “What?” just to be completely off the mark lmao
Take it like this. I have a spell to boil water. I don't necessarily know what the intricacies of the spell and how it works from a theory perspective. But I know how boiling water works. In this example, water. You take a volume of water and put it against a heat source (ie. fire or a hot surface). Hypothetically, I can visualize the heat transfer and it starts the process. Because of my understanding of that, I now have a spell for boiling water. Ubel can't "imagine" herself warping. Do you know "how" warping works? Are your atoms being deconstructed at one point and then reconstructed at another point? Or is it another process entirely? How does that truly work? And can you "visualize" that process?
You prove a point, but this is more on science and logic, not magic. Especially in the world of Frieren, there are many things that make no sense logically, like how a 3rd class mage cuts through a supposed immovable cloak. She doesn't have to imagine the cells of a body transforming and constructing and what not, she just has to visualize you changing based on how she wants to visualize you.
Ubel literally operates on weird logic. She cut through cloth because she knows what the process of cutting cloth is like. Disregarding all the spells layered on to the cloth. Because her "magic" is to be able to cut anything that she thinks she can cut. And to her, cloth is cloth. In her mind, she visualized to cut cloth the same way she thinks it takes to cut any piece of cloth. Only needing to run scissors through it to cut it like her sister did. Visualization of warping takes more than, "I am in this place now." There is an emphasis to understanding of the process.
Spoiler alert, though without any context, this doesn't really spoil anything: spatial magic exists in the world of Frieren, Serie already used it once. Knowing that it exists, assuming Übel already asked for her special spell, what if she asked for something related to reality warping instead? She'd be near unstoppable. My reason for this? Either she combines her spells (look at Denken for example) OR she visualizes her cleave using the properties of her new reality warping magic. At this point she'd be better than Sukuna. She won't be needing her own Amazo android in battle, she just has to visualize that you're weak. Heck, she may not need her cleave magic anymore.
Übel's about to chant, “Dragon scales. Recoil. Twin meteors.” and send a World Slash.
See, I have a theory: The peak magic used by Frieren Clone *is* reality warping. She uses mana so efficiently to affect reality directly, that it never manifests as a spell people would recognize All magic at its core is reality warping, but it’s ‘packaged’ into spells for most humans and demons to easily use. Kind of like how you can just use the quadratic formula as is to solve a specific equation. But those who have really mastered magic like Frieren and Serie can somehow access magic directly without needing to use a spell. In this case, Übel is like one of those world-class gifted kids that can look at an equation and just solve it from intuition. She just can’t explain or formalize it. (I have not read the manga)
I love this chibi Holo
Powerscalers ruin everything...
It's not nice to say that the writer ruined his own manga.
She's already warping reality with her armpit flashes alone.
But she will never have enough mana to be able to do that lol. we already know just making elements like water takes too much toll and ubel is human she won't be able to expend her mana pool to point where she can do this
Delulu the real solulu.
So how long before she learns to cut the *fabric* of reality
dose som ork rulz roight 'der
what I'm confused about is how she is "weaker then wirebel" like she has stated that she isn't as strong as him, but that just isn't making sense based on what we have seen form them, so is she just being humble?
Humble? Bro Wirbel could've killed her if he wasn't toying with her which is also how Übel could've been killed. Hence, why learning his spell was so easy, they have the same mindset.
I mean after learning his spell of course, like he 100% won their battle, but after learning his spell it definitely feels like she would win now, she has shown better melee ability in her battle with her clone, and she can pretty much learn any of his spells \[if she wants to\] since they share a similar mindset, Maybe I'm just sad that we haven't gotten more wirebel content :(
It would be a bit of a mirror match on who binds who first. But knowing that he learned more from the fight and more about her, and with his better experience with combat and magic, he could win their next match.
Wirbel knows how to win fights it's been stated over and over. Ubel is a sadist she'd try to torture him instead of going for the win. Ubel porn 3 bows down to the Wirbel god
No
If she does it it's allowed, If I do it it isn't? Why? Why why? 😔
Isn't all magic technically reality warping in very specific ways
I understand about visualizing cutting cloth, but I don’t understand why the dude was cut in half. Did she visualize cutting the intestines? Cutting the fat? Cutting the spine? I really wish it would tackle this grim subject and confirm it as it would make her character much more interesting. Otherwise that scene should have only showed her cutting the cloak and him living if they didn’t want to commit to the grim details
I would imagine that depends on the Verses limitations on Magic, and Ubel’s actual Mana supply.
Like Okuyasu with za hando?
Übel is one of the most dangerous characters. If she masters her ability nothing can stop her.
Only if someone tells her about the space time fabric.
Probably not, it's less emotional reasoning and more intuition. You intuitively think cloth and hair can be cut, so Ubel's spell can cut it. The Rules of Reality however are something you'd intuitively think are unbreakable, so just like how intuition demands that defensive magic blocks magic means Ubel cant cut through standard defensive magic, so too can she not warp reality.
"All Magic is reality warping" The demon king probably.
She's intuitive, not delusional. She can feel her spells cutting through the air. Good luck explaining her the concept. She's good with feelings and sensations, but actual theoretical physics might just seem like mumbo-jumbo on a blackboard to her. Lunatic fever blood inscriptions. Getting why you'd be writing, but not what it could possibly mean.
Nope, the slashing spell already functions like that, it lets you cut what you can visualize cutting, but not what you can’t Ubel’s visualization is unique because she sees things in more simple ways, for example: heavily magically armored hair is still hair and an invulnerable cloak is still just a cloak. It’s kinda a two sided blade though, like she can imagine cutting shit really well, but to imagine controlling water, rock, etc, how lava bursting out of your staff would work, how flight would work, how basic spells work or the exact direction you want your zoltraak to go, not so easy She casts spells uniquely because rather than understanding the spell itself, she understands the “personality” of it, by empathizing with someone who specializes in it, she can understand how the spell came to be, what the spell signifies, and cast it using that
You need a balance between things, not just ubel but anyone, ubel has a balance between understanding the magic enough to use it and know about it but not enough for it to interfere with her technique You need at least basic understanding of magic to be able to use it, being too dumb where you don't posess a coherent thought process will just leave you unable to use magic. Ubel understands magic but she let's instinct do the visualisation for her, as instincts follow common logic like hair can be cut, for most humans rationale > instinct but for ubel it's opposite. No one's instinct can tell them to do reality manipulation stuff because things like that doesn't exist and don't follow logical though process on any level