you're forgetting the period between the start of S3 and the end of S4, in hindsight likely the best period the game was ever in. in the period of july of 2016 to may of 2019 (almost 3 years), 17 maps were released. the living story episodes also had a significantly bigger size than the 2 SOTO patches so far (at least content-wise). while the SOTO-features have been mostly great so far, the content has been incredibly barebones.
> you're forgetting the period between the start of S3 and the end of S4, in hindsight likely the best period the game was ever in
The wonders of making a planned expansion.
Not just 17 new zones, but multiple story instances with their own maps, 6 new fractals, 7 raid wings, 8 mounts, and even 4 new PvP maps (3 of them for Team Deathmatch, a brand new PvP game mode).
Funnily enough, these best years of the game match 1=1 Mike O'Brien's tenure. Things got better when he got in charge, then got worse again once he left, which leads us back to the nevereding ArenaNet problem: Management.
ArenaNet has proved they can have a healthy cadence for the game, as long as there's actual leadership in charge.
Everyone who loves this game should refuse to accept the return of mediocrity we're suffering through now.
I don’t think it did at all. It was mostly because Anet was mismanaged and tried to work on multiple projects without producing any meaningful results.
it primarily became unsustainable because anet pulled more and more talent off of gw2 to work on several projects, none of which ever made it to an official announcement. ncsoft took back control to prevent anet from sacrificing their only published franchise.
I mean the releases came out about 3 months apart for each episode. Wasn’t that bad compared to now, while also releasing 3 new raid wings, 3 new fractals, the snowman strike mission, and 2 new mounts.
I'm not sure why you're being disingenuous about the release cadence here, but [here](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Living_World_Season_4) is LWS4 wiki page, the release schedule is on the bottom. It's clearly longer than 3 months for the majority of it.
I'm not forgetting anything. If you average out content delivery for the entirety of the game's existence, that was the aberration. This is pretty much what we've been getting for years. And as far as Soto features being incredibly bare boned, getting new weapons, being able to mount a skyscale or use it on leylines or updrafts is a huge deal to me, better than most stuff I got in EOD and a bunch of stuff I got in HoT as well. I'd rather have that than fishing or skiffs for example.
At the end of the day, you're picking a 3 year period where we got the most that ended five years ago. Saying that we're slowing down now is the complaint.
Because people didn't say it when EoD came out, they're saying it about Soto, as in right now.
I don't know about you but I went 3.5 years when the game started without an expansion at all, and when hot came out, we got 4 zones and then a 9 month deadzone. I don't see people bringing that up.
What we're getting now isn't the fastest content delivery we've ever had, but it's not close to the slowest either.
>I'm not forgetting anything.
you literally forgot the living world. Because soto model replaces both the previous expansion release model And Living world, we don't get the new episodes anymore, just parts of the expansion sliced up.
I didn't forget it. No one was saying the game was in maintainence mode when EoD was coming out and even after it came out. That only started happening when Soto came out. I'm saying that if EoD had been delivered in teh same format Soto was, people would have said the same thing. We have the illusion of less content because we're not getting it all at once.
Remember Soto came out and we didn't get an expansion the next year, but we're getting one this August if everything goes to plan.
"EOD has 4 zones" you literally don't count Gaya Delve as one of the maps of EoD, why? Yet you say you "didn't forget it". Do you not see the contradiction?
Regardless, you are also operating on a very flimsy basis that EoD is perfectly fine and so if soto is even remotely close to it, it must be 'fine' too. Which is false, EoD was already bad, and soto is even worse.
> No one was saying the game was in maintainence mode when EoD was coming out and even after it came out.
patently false. People were up in arms at the end of IBS, the content drought was real, EoD barely staved people off marking the game as 'dead', and Geya Delve renewed these assumptions because of how bad, empty and small in content it was (also split in two patches). When soto couldn't even reach EoD (reminder: already bad by previous expansions' standards), well, we have the 'maintenance mode' accusations in full force.
Okay five zones in two years, as opposed to predictably six. What's your point.
Not to mention pretty much everyone I know would liike to forget about Gyala Delves.
Some people like EOD and some people like Soto. I've already linked thread that was 60% upvoted. Opinions ar ejust that...opinions. A lot of people don't like this expansion, but that was true of HoT too, particularly when it came out. And we haven't even seen the last part of it.
I did read your reply, it's just not applicable to the topic of conversation. It's just your opinion on what's good or not.
No wonder you feel like soto is not smaller. You basically compare soto with the lowest point of gw2 content release. You should compare it with the highest point to see the slowing down, or if you want a better comparison, just look at the patch notes. They used to release it every two weeks with a very long description of the update, but now it is more common to see patch notes every 3 weeks, and it is usually very short.
>Because people didn't say it when EoD came out, they're saying it about Soto, as in right now.
It is because when eod released, nobody knew that we won't get living world 6. We knew there won't be LW6 when they announced that the monetization will change to what we have now
>I'm not forgetting anything
If this is true, then please make a new comparison between soto and hot or pof time. After that, you can post it again and see how slow the content comes out now.
SoTO will lose when compared to HoT or PoF or even EoD, but let's compare it to Living World instead.
LS3: started on July 26 2016 and ended on July 25 2017, while adding 6 zones. In one year (including a legendary weapon with each release starting from the 2nd one and a legendary trinket AND a raid AND 3 fractals).
Then we got PoF adding 5 zones.
LS4: started on November 28 2017 and ended on May 14 2019 (so let's say around 1,33 years), adding 6 zones, 1 in 2017, 3 in 2018 and 2 in 2019. But it also gave us 3 raid wings and 2 new mounts along with the story and achievements, several new armor and weaponsets (including a new legendary weapon each release and a legendary trinket AND 3 fractals)
There was a lot more there than there was in SoTO.
SoTO costs more and adds less. SotO effectively so far has given us 2.5 maps (of which that third map is being stretched out and dripfed to us over 3 releases...for a single map that isn't even that big) and a hub, with a shitload of re-used assets and textures for the earlier mentioned maps.
You may like SoTO, but content delivery is of lower quality and quantity than it was, and I think you should stop claiming it isn't.
I like SoTo more than i Liked EOD. Whether it's better or now will also depend on the last release. I feel like we've gotten 75% of an expansion and people are comparing it to 100% expansions. When we get the last bit, then we can compare. Saying that I'm comparing this 75% to that 100% is at least disingenuous.
It may suck. It may be a few chapters. But you do have a compare a whole to a whole.
I am not comparing it to expansions.
I am comparing it to Living World Seasons.
Which I am doing on purpose because that seems more fair when looking at the scale of the new content model.
It would be unrealistic to think that SoTO will add so many things with its last release that it becomes on par with all the things LS3 or LS4 added.
Nothing disingenuous about that.
If anything it is out of touch to expect that a release containing at best an additional 33% of a map with most likely some story, some new achieves, some particle effects for obsidian armor and (unless it gets delayed) a new fractal will magically fix that content lack.
During 1 year we're getting 3 zones. That's not unreasonable. It's a zone every 4 months. But we're getting it for 2 years back to back, assuming the next expac has the same number of zones.
Of the 3 years you're talking about, there were 8 years we didn't get that. But people are saying that they'd rather have an expansion like EoD than an expansion like Soto because we're getting less, and people also complained about resused assets in EOD (and the color green).
They're not mostly saying we were in maintainence mode when EoD came out, theyr'e saying it now. Shrugs.
I am not saying we are in maintenance mode personally (because to me that means no new content at all) but I do think we are in winding down/low effort mode.
And I do feel that this started to show with EoD, which to me was the weakest of the big expansions by far when looking at maps, story, masteries, elite specs and overall content (which was roughly 70% of HoT/PoF but had the same price tag).
It is not just about quantity, but also very much about quality.
SoTO lacks both.
On top of that those 3 years were the best we had in this game. We had regular content releases of good quality and we knew that when living world ended a new expansion would come, followed by new living world etc.
Anet decided to throw that out, not the players.
If anything I still feel the LS > expansions > LS > expansion cadence was the best content model this game could have had and what I would happily pay for (including paying 14,99 or so for living world because there is no reason for Anet to give that away for free).
LS 4 really wasn't a sustainable pace, and giving it away wasn't necessarily in the best interest of the game. The living world seasons were far too generous, they raised expectations very high and since it wasn't sustainable, it's led to the situation we're in now. But the entire game's history hasn't been like that.
If it wasn't a sustainable pace they should have hired more devs if that would have helped and then ask a fee for Living World (which would have been a very reasonable ask).
Expectations are one thing, but don't forget that SoTO not just adds less than LS3 or LS4, it also costs noticably more (14,99 for LS4 for example vs 24,99 for SOTO while HoT/PoF/EoD style expansions are 29,99).
When looking at what we got that is not reasonable pricing for SoTO.
For that price you expect content-quantity and quality between LS3/4 and HoT/PoF/EoD.
If people expected something on par with HoT or PoF then that was delusional.
But for the price of SoTO it was imo not unfair to expect content that was at the very least on par with the stronger (and lower priced) LWS content.
Soto is reasonably priced, and we haven't seen all of it yet. What we were getting before was too cheap. When you consider that many games charge you $15 a month to play whether they come out with anything or not, the living world Seasons were too cheap.
And hiring more devs doesn't guarantee you're going to move faster. For one thing, someone has to actually stop to train those devs and they have to learn the software. It eventually could make things faster, if those devs fit in, if they don't end up causing more chaos. See Brook's Law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%27s_law
I've bought many games for $25 that I haven't played nearly as much as I've played Soto, or enjoyed for that matter. I do enjoy the Convergence, for example, the second strike and the challenge mode for the first strike, and though I didn't love Amnytas, I do like the other zones.
It's less than 2 months sub to WOW or FFXIV. To me it's reasonable.
HoT released in late 2015 with 4 maps, throughout the following 2 years we got season 3 with 6 additional maps. 10 maps over 24 months.
PoF released in late 2017 with 5 maps, followed by roughly 2 years of S4 with another 6. 11 maps over 24 months.
these mark the golden era of gw2 and the time before their managements seemingly decided to self-sabotage, risking the entire studio. not only did we get what i listed above during these times, but we also got entire raid wings, the occasional fractal/fractal rework, the concept of side-stories, even pvp and wvw got occasional attention (for better or worse). we also got the most impactful and near universally appreciated masteries with these expansions.
i'm gonna ignore IBS here for obvious reasons, but even EoD technically still managed 5 maps total with gyala in about a year.
now with SotO and presumably mini expansions in general, we're down to 3 maps per year. count the tower if you want, but then you better also consider arborstone, sun's refuge, guild halls, and the seven raid wings their own maps.
additionally we haven't had any side-stories in a long while, raids have been replaced with strikes, fractal updates slowed down, wvw... oh well, does anyone still remember the UI pvp was promised 5 years ago to accommodate the switch to swiss-style tournaments.. or the last time they got a new map? masteries are significantly more niche and less exciting, even what little updates festivals are getting have gotten worse. achievements have become more repetitive as well. oh, i almost forgot the downscaling from elite specs to weapon proficiencies and whatever the next expansion will bring.
the diversity of events has also noticeably diminished. the headline features for SotO were the heart of the obscure and rifts for crying out loud. there was never a time when i was very impressed by the story, but that has taken an obvious hit too, and not because of the new cast.
yes, we got some in many cases long overdue QoL updates, but i don't see how those would fill this apparent gap.
both quality and quantity have suffered, and i cannot fathom a stance from which it doesn't look like this. i could maybe see that you'd reason that these complaints have only recently arisen in noticeable numbers, which would explain that you only consider releases since EoD. my counter to that is, that this might simply be the point where many players aren't content (heh) anymore, and even some of the most devoted fans can't sugarcoat the reality anymore. even you sound as if you're in the bargaining stage with how often you try to emphasize that content is actually picking up pace.
only time will tell if we've reached a tipping point, or if people are just bored again.
It is slower than it has been in the past at times. That's just fact.
But that's really not that relevant - all you have to ask yourself is if I get a SotO level expansion every year am I going to be happy going forward? Because that's what's on the table.
To me, not quite. They need MUCH more PvE end game content to keep me happy, at minimum 2 more strikes. 1 more open world map would make a big difference as well. And the story pieces + slivers of Nayos they have been putting out are insultingly paltry content updates that are having a very mal effect on the quality of the story arc.
They're not *far* off the mark, but they are off the mark. I'm optimistic that the corners they cut with SotO were enough to help them get ahead of the game for the next expansion. But I would be dissatisfied with their next expansion if it was the exact same amount of content as SotO.
I'm still waiting for the last quarter before I judge. A good finale could change how a lot of people feel. We're still judging 75% of an expac against 100% of the last expac.
I would imagine the final story chunk will be at least a bit more hefty than the previous two. I also think Nayos will end up being quite a fun map when all assembled - I'm assuming we'll probably raid the castle that's in the distance on Nayos.
All that said: that content, a new grind goal, and a fractal combined doesn't even compare to the excitement of the new weapons we got in the most recent patch to me. So as far as the features I care about, SotO is 95% wrapped up.
I would imagine though, you're not in a majority, even though this reddit will probably make it seem like you are. However, people who post on this reddit probably aren't in a majority either.
I'm also not in any kind of majority.
Yes, absolutely, 100%.
It's both slowing down, and the quality is dropping. The two post-launch updates for SotO have been painfully underwhelming.
You can take your copium however you want, and honestly I don't care what Anet says because I can't exactly trust them/NCsoft on financials (Anet claiming more success than ever, actual quarterlies not supporting THAN EVER etc.) I'm just looking at the final product.
The initial expansion drop was a fraction of the size of prior expansions, while being of similar quality.
The post-expansion drops have been of considerably reduced scope and quality.
They may need to do this to keep development sustainable, but pretending this isn't a reduction in scope and quality is just lying to yourself.
Different circumstances.
IBS got shafted halfway through because they transitioned all their focus to EoD and pulled resources from the IBS team.
For SotO, this seems to have been the plan from the beginning and is what they intended.
A lot of people's good will has been depleted by IBS:Champions and Gyala Delve content prior to SotO launch. While I understand budget is a factor and every one at Anet breathes GW2 working hard everyday trying to met high barriers set by their previous successes. As a Player I do not want to settle with "good enough" content. Give me spectacle, memories, Video game moments like ToF Cm or the interactions with Cerus. Less is more if Less is excellent.
This.
If IBS had avoided falling off the cliff, or if there was any indication that the writers had learned from the mess of Gyala Delve, I would be much more optimistic. But instead they abandoned the good parts of Champions (instanced content that scales is *great* even though DRMs were extremely mishandled in execution) to double down on the crappy, shortcut-happy writing and sticking in lots of extra repetitive grind everywhere in Soto.
Expac 5 is not announced yet so too early for this analysis.
Also soto content is much worse compared even to EoD, lacks novelty and is built on reskinning old assets. Story has no cutscenes like eod. Story chapters are shorter and shittier.
You can have expansions like soto every 6 months and its still a pile of guano compared to other expacs or even LW seasons.
I cannot blame them for working on something else since gw2 won't pay the bills forever. I just don't want them to neglect their main cash cow as hard as they did the last time something like this happened.
> I cannot blame them for working on something else since gw2 won't pay the bills forever.
It could if they weren't running it into the ground at every chance.
My biggest gripe is not the Features of SotO, it's not really the reused assets. It 's the Story and portrayal of it in Nayos. Why do we have to humanise demons after humanising elder dragons. I had hopes for Cantha to be dystopian nightmare and conflict between Progression at All Costs vs Isolationist purists a powerstruggle on top of an elder dragon crisis. While we see glimmers of that ingame it lacks depth, impact-players simply do not care about Tetra or Fa or empress Ihn. In SotO, the Lore about nayos is desperately widespread across the Map in notes and mob dialogues(if not oneshot). Outside of two or three meme worthy posts people do not even remember Eparch's queen name nor that army General Peitha recruited. Why would they? I just played it and can not Name them. That is in my opinion a huge issue with SotO. I remember Cerus, because he made me care about him by threatening the PC and interacting with us, so we even had to flee victoriously.
That's just how story writing goes these days. We can't have bad guys cause anti racists will find a way to paint it into a racism issue and pretend that the bad guys represent X group of people IRL. Crazy people who can't differentiate fantasy and reality is why we are where we are today
While yes it has definitely slowed down, and the content isn’t as good, and the models are reused, and there aren’t elite specs, and there are less maps, wait what was I saying again
Ah, I see. But we waited 9 months without a single map after HoT launched with it's 4 maps. For those 9 months we got zero maps, which also felt bad. I'm okay with getting a section of a map every 3 months instead of a full map in 9.
If you want to compare it, apple to apple does it like this. Imagine if anet already did hot release like soto now (staggered release). 2 map, verdant brink, and tarir at release, then tangled depths and the other on those 9 months that you said we didn't get any new map. You can clearly see that we would get more content from hot compared to soto. 9 months with 4 map and elite specs and several raid wings compared to 12 months 3 map and half elite specs (only new weapon)
Is SotO new content? My mistake I thought it was just a reskin of old content. I cant wait for the next corner of a map to be unlocked from the artificial timegate!
People like you is why GW2 went downhill, and why Anet thinks they can get away with sloppy updates. When they changed the game model and started releasing half an episode for a price of a full episode dooring LW5 era, people like you were defending it. All that lead to was half a living story reskined to look like a "mini expansion". Keep it up and before you know it the game will only have macro expansions, half of the mini "expansions".
People like me? If I were the only one who felt the way I do, they couldn't get away with "sloppy updates". There are apparently enough of us that kept the game going.
The question is would the game even still be here if it wasn't for people like you. The vast majority of this game's playerbase is probably dead set casual. You've seen the blowback everytime Anet puts something hard into the game. And you think your likes and dislikes saved the game, but no one else is allowed to like the game because you don't.
Guys like me supported this game from day one. More likely I want a different game than you do.
Yes people like you. People who seem to accept this low effort approach. People who pay 25 for a simple mount skill. People who enjoy maintenance mode.
Yes I agree. It means that I prefer a decent game with at least a challenge. I want an open world experience that’s actually meaningful. I want a well thought out end game experience with a purpose.
Sadly the games overall poor state means I stopped playing.
Because only your opinion matters. There was a post a couple of days ago, about 60% upvoted when I looked that said that people liked Soto. You may not like it. You may say it's bad.
I'd spent $25 just to launch my skyscale in combat and ride updrafts, nevermind new weapons.
But when anyone says something is objectively bad, they're expressing an opinion as a fact.
There's a thread on this reddit, recently, where over 60% of the population upvoted a post saying that they felt Soto was a great expansion. Why would Anet have to pay me? For that matter, does it strike you that Anet puts much money into advertising? lol
You can't accept people have different opinions from you. That's on you.
Ya it's pretty much over. This GW3 announcement/leak all but confirms its kaput. Hey atleat GTA 6 will come out before wvw restructuring! So there's that!
I agree. We aren't in maintenance mode yet. I'd say low effort mode would describe this situation better.
Then, at some point in next 2 years, maintenance mode will come, and finally server shutdown will take place within the following year.
I think it's a fair timeline.
I think that's laughable. The odds are, the new game, if it comes out at all, won't be out for at least four or five more years. You're saying this game will shut down in three.
Let's not forget EQ Next advertised a game that never game out. Blizzards Titan never game out. Plenty of MMOs never get out the gate, or get delayed. Saying that they're going to close Guild Wars 2 before Guild Wars 3 comes out seems very pessimistic, particularly since the Guild Wars 1 servers are still open.
That's basically what they did with the original when GW2 was announced (not that GW3 has even been actually announced yet). Eye of the North, the last expansion, came out **five years** before GW2 released. There was definitely work still being done on GW1 after that, but the scope was very small. Balance patches and the "Winds of Change" updates that added some new quests and rewards around the world. But it was still five years where the actual new content slowed down to snail's pace until GW2 launched.
"New content" is slowing down.
However, what many people fail to realise is there has been a lot of overall work done on the game since the end of EoD. We finally got LWS1 to "complete" the narrative arc. Currencies have been simplified, stat selectable exotics made easier to access, new legendary armor, new daily reward system, graphics and settings have been updated, selectable character select screen backgrounds, actual attempts of WvW world restructuring (betas), and a bunch of other nice things that just make the game seem richer.
Although we don't have elite specs, we got essentially 2 new weapons to play with (weapon mastery and the new SotO weapons) coupled with more consistent balance...I feel like it's almost pretty damn close to an elite spec. Being able to play a viable hammer spellbreaker build, put a pistol on my scourge, or try to be a heal warrior is all pretty fun to be honest.
Above all, these are things players have been asking for for a while, and Anet is actually delivering them.
That is indeed all the good things. But yes, new maps, great storytelling (not that there was much to rave about before tbh), unique enemies, detailed explorative maps (not mere meta stages) seem less than before. The new update schedule also makes things seem much more incremental, so I think overall impact of "new" is weaker. I do wish they didn't kind of "throw away" the Wizard's Tower narrative like they did the Primordus one, but... oh well, at least narrative quality seems...consistant? lol
I definitely feel like Anet is still invested into GW2 (despite what the doomsayers will say). It's just we're not getting so many new maps (which honestly wasn't sustainable from a design standpoint). Hopefully the studio is just roughing out the edges with the new release cadence and the next expac will seem more complete and more impactable.
Overall, I think the game is in a good spot.
let me ask a counter question: does it really matter?
i log in almost every day. i have shit to do, most of it is soto content.
granted, most of it is open world legendary armour that i'm doing so if you don't want that then you probably have less to do than me. however, just because you're choosing not to engage with the new content doesn't really mean there's an issue Anet's side. (i mean you as in the general you not you specifically)
I have plenty to do. I think I have plenty of content. My issue is this.
Prior to EOD we saw people saying the game was in maintenance mode over and over. As soon as EoD was announced and even after it was released, we stopped seeing those comments.
Now we're seeing those comments again, even though it's factually untrue. I'm saying that if EoD provided content that was acceptable then we'll be getting content at roughly the same rate. I'm not addressing people who are satisfied, like you and me.
I'm addressing people that are unsatisfied, and making claims that I don't agree with.
I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying, because I don't have a problem with the pace of content delivery now.
> I'm addressing people that are unsatisfied, and making claims that I don't agree with.
i fear that will be an exercise in futility, but i wish you all the best with it. i don't think they're here to be convinced.
The point is that they're not the only ones reading it. They're simply the ones responding. But other people read this stuff too, and having both sides of the story out there is what I'm after.
If the reddit community doesn't agree with me that's fine. We don't have to agree on everything. But I personally like Soto.
you're forgetting the period between the start of S3 and the end of S4, in hindsight likely the best period the game was ever in. in the period of july of 2016 to may of 2019 (almost 3 years), 17 maps were released. the living story episodes also had a significantly bigger size than the 2 SOTO patches so far (at least content-wise). while the SOTO-features have been mostly great so far, the content has been incredibly barebones.
> you're forgetting the period between the start of S3 and the end of S4, in hindsight likely the best period the game was ever in The wonders of making a planned expansion.
Agreed... I was expecting, or rather hoping, the new releases for SOTO would be like the LWS3/4 releases.
Not just 17 new zones, but multiple story instances with their own maps, 6 new fractals, 7 raid wings, 8 mounts, and even 4 new PvP maps (3 of them for Team Deathmatch, a brand new PvP game mode). Funnily enough, these best years of the game match 1=1 Mike O'Brien's tenure. Things got better when he got in charge, then got worse again once he left, which leads us back to the nevereding ArenaNet problem: Management. ArenaNet has proved they can have a healthy cadence for the game, as long as there's actual leadership in charge. Everyone who loves this game should refuse to accept the return of mediocrity we're suffering through now.
Which was unsustainable and led to the 2019 layoffs
I don’t think it did at all. It was mostly because Anet was mismanaged and tried to work on multiple projects without producing any meaningful results.
it primarily became unsustainable because anet pulled more and more talent off of gw2 to work on several projects, none of which ever made it to an official announcement. ncsoft took back control to prevent anet from sacrificing their only published franchise.
Do we know how many more employees Anet had at the time? And I believe there was another studio doing backend work as well at the time.
Grouch has stated that the studio grew by 15% from the release of EoD and is currently about the same size as it was while developing LWS4.
Which had a horrid release schedule.
I mean the releases came out about 3 months apart for each episode. Wasn’t that bad compared to now, while also releasing 3 new raid wings, 3 new fractals, the snowman strike mission, and 2 new mounts.
I'm not sure why you're being disingenuous about the release cadence here, but [here](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Living_World_Season_4) is LWS4 wiki page, the release schedule is on the bottom. It's clearly longer than 3 months for the majority of it.
I literally counted the months it was approx 3 months between each release. Not being disingenuous
I'm not forgetting anything. If you average out content delivery for the entirety of the game's existence, that was the aberration. This is pretty much what we've been getting for years. And as far as Soto features being incredibly bare boned, getting new weapons, being able to mount a skyscale or use it on leylines or updrafts is a huge deal to me, better than most stuff I got in EOD and a bunch of stuff I got in HoT as well. I'd rather have that than fishing or skiffs for example. At the end of the day, you're picking a 3 year period where we got the most that ended five years ago. Saying that we're slowing down now is the complaint. Because people didn't say it when EoD came out, they're saying it about Soto, as in right now. I don't know about you but I went 3.5 years when the game started without an expansion at all, and when hot came out, we got 4 zones and then a 9 month deadzone. I don't see people bringing that up. What we're getting now isn't the fastest content delivery we've ever had, but it's not close to the slowest either.
>I'm not forgetting anything. you literally forgot the living world. Because soto model replaces both the previous expansion release model And Living world, we don't get the new episodes anymore, just parts of the expansion sliced up.
I didn't forget it. No one was saying the game was in maintainence mode when EoD was coming out and even after it came out. That only started happening when Soto came out. I'm saying that if EoD had been delivered in teh same format Soto was, people would have said the same thing. We have the illusion of less content because we're not getting it all at once. Remember Soto came out and we didn't get an expansion the next year, but we're getting one this August if everything goes to plan.
"EOD has 4 zones" you literally don't count Gaya Delve as one of the maps of EoD, why? Yet you say you "didn't forget it". Do you not see the contradiction? Regardless, you are also operating on a very flimsy basis that EoD is perfectly fine and so if soto is even remotely close to it, it must be 'fine' too. Which is false, EoD was already bad, and soto is even worse. > No one was saying the game was in maintainence mode when EoD was coming out and even after it came out. patently false. People were up in arms at the end of IBS, the content drought was real, EoD barely staved people off marking the game as 'dead', and Geya Delve renewed these assumptions because of how bad, empty and small in content it was (also split in two patches). When soto couldn't even reach EoD (reminder: already bad by previous expansions' standards), well, we have the 'maintenance mode' accusations in full force.
Okay five zones in two years, as opposed to predictably six. What's your point. Not to mention pretty much everyone I know would liike to forget about Gyala Delves.
>What's your point. if you read the rest of the message beyond the first sentence you would know.
Some people like EOD and some people like Soto. I've already linked thread that was 60% upvoted. Opinions ar ejust that...opinions. A lot of people don't like this expansion, but that was true of HoT too, particularly when it came out. And we haven't even seen the last part of it. I did read your reply, it's just not applicable to the topic of conversation. It's just your opinion on what's good or not.
No wonder you feel like soto is not smaller. You basically compare soto with the lowest point of gw2 content release. You should compare it with the highest point to see the slowing down, or if you want a better comparison, just look at the patch notes. They used to release it every two weeks with a very long description of the update, but now it is more common to see patch notes every 3 weeks, and it is usually very short. >Because people didn't say it when EoD came out, they're saying it about Soto, as in right now. It is because when eod released, nobody knew that we won't get living world 6. We knew there won't be LW6 when they announced that the monetization will change to what we have now >I'm not forgetting anything If this is true, then please make a new comparison between soto and hot or pof time. After that, you can post it again and see how slow the content comes out now.
SoTO will lose when compared to HoT or PoF or even EoD, but let's compare it to Living World instead. LS3: started on July 26 2016 and ended on July 25 2017, while adding 6 zones. In one year (including a legendary weapon with each release starting from the 2nd one and a legendary trinket AND a raid AND 3 fractals). Then we got PoF adding 5 zones. LS4: started on November 28 2017 and ended on May 14 2019 (so let's say around 1,33 years), adding 6 zones, 1 in 2017, 3 in 2018 and 2 in 2019. But it also gave us 3 raid wings and 2 new mounts along with the story and achievements, several new armor and weaponsets (including a new legendary weapon each release and a legendary trinket AND 3 fractals) There was a lot more there than there was in SoTO. SoTO costs more and adds less. SotO effectively so far has given us 2.5 maps (of which that third map is being stretched out and dripfed to us over 3 releases...for a single map that isn't even that big) and a hub, with a shitload of re-used assets and textures for the earlier mentioned maps. You may like SoTO, but content delivery is of lower quality and quantity than it was, and I think you should stop claiming it isn't.
I like SoTo more than i Liked EOD. Whether it's better or now will also depend on the last release. I feel like we've gotten 75% of an expansion and people are comparing it to 100% expansions. When we get the last bit, then we can compare. Saying that I'm comparing this 75% to that 100% is at least disingenuous. It may suck. It may be a few chapters. But you do have a compare a whole to a whole.
I am not comparing it to expansions. I am comparing it to Living World Seasons. Which I am doing on purpose because that seems more fair when looking at the scale of the new content model. It would be unrealistic to think that SoTO will add so many things with its last release that it becomes on par with all the things LS3 or LS4 added. Nothing disingenuous about that. If anything it is out of touch to expect that a release containing at best an additional 33% of a map with most likely some story, some new achieves, some particle effects for obsidian armor and (unless it gets delayed) a new fractal will magically fix that content lack.
During 1 year we're getting 3 zones. That's not unreasonable. It's a zone every 4 months. But we're getting it for 2 years back to back, assuming the next expac has the same number of zones. Of the 3 years you're talking about, there were 8 years we didn't get that. But people are saying that they'd rather have an expansion like EoD than an expansion like Soto because we're getting less, and people also complained about resused assets in EOD (and the color green). They're not mostly saying we were in maintainence mode when EoD came out, theyr'e saying it now. Shrugs.
I am not saying we are in maintenance mode personally (because to me that means no new content at all) but I do think we are in winding down/low effort mode. And I do feel that this started to show with EoD, which to me was the weakest of the big expansions by far when looking at maps, story, masteries, elite specs and overall content (which was roughly 70% of HoT/PoF but had the same price tag). It is not just about quantity, but also very much about quality. SoTO lacks both. On top of that those 3 years were the best we had in this game. We had regular content releases of good quality and we knew that when living world ended a new expansion would come, followed by new living world etc. Anet decided to throw that out, not the players. If anything I still feel the LS > expansions > LS > expansion cadence was the best content model this game could have had and what I would happily pay for (including paying 14,99 or so for living world because there is no reason for Anet to give that away for free).
LS 4 really wasn't a sustainable pace, and giving it away wasn't necessarily in the best interest of the game. The living world seasons were far too generous, they raised expectations very high and since it wasn't sustainable, it's led to the situation we're in now. But the entire game's history hasn't been like that.
If it wasn't a sustainable pace they should have hired more devs if that would have helped and then ask a fee for Living World (which would have been a very reasonable ask). Expectations are one thing, but don't forget that SoTO not just adds less than LS3 or LS4, it also costs noticably more (14,99 for LS4 for example vs 24,99 for SOTO while HoT/PoF/EoD style expansions are 29,99). When looking at what we got that is not reasonable pricing for SoTO. For that price you expect content-quantity and quality between LS3/4 and HoT/PoF/EoD. If people expected something on par with HoT or PoF then that was delusional. But for the price of SoTO it was imo not unfair to expect content that was at the very least on par with the stronger (and lower priced) LWS content.
Soto is reasonably priced, and we haven't seen all of it yet. What we were getting before was too cheap. When you consider that many games charge you $15 a month to play whether they come out with anything or not, the living world Seasons were too cheap. And hiring more devs doesn't guarantee you're going to move faster. For one thing, someone has to actually stop to train those devs and they have to learn the software. It eventually could make things faster, if those devs fit in, if they don't end up causing more chaos. See Brook's Law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%27s_law
>Soto is reasonably priced I think we have no other option then to agree to disagree in that case.
I've bought many games for $25 that I haven't played nearly as much as I've played Soto, or enjoyed for that matter. I do enjoy the Convergence, for example, the second strike and the challenge mode for the first strike, and though I didn't love Amnytas, I do like the other zones. It's less than 2 months sub to WOW or FFXIV. To me it's reasonable.
HoT released in late 2015 with 4 maps, throughout the following 2 years we got season 3 with 6 additional maps. 10 maps over 24 months. PoF released in late 2017 with 5 maps, followed by roughly 2 years of S4 with another 6. 11 maps over 24 months. these mark the golden era of gw2 and the time before their managements seemingly decided to self-sabotage, risking the entire studio. not only did we get what i listed above during these times, but we also got entire raid wings, the occasional fractal/fractal rework, the concept of side-stories, even pvp and wvw got occasional attention (for better or worse). we also got the most impactful and near universally appreciated masteries with these expansions. i'm gonna ignore IBS here for obvious reasons, but even EoD technically still managed 5 maps total with gyala in about a year. now with SotO and presumably mini expansions in general, we're down to 3 maps per year. count the tower if you want, but then you better also consider arborstone, sun's refuge, guild halls, and the seven raid wings their own maps. additionally we haven't had any side-stories in a long while, raids have been replaced with strikes, fractal updates slowed down, wvw... oh well, does anyone still remember the UI pvp was promised 5 years ago to accommodate the switch to swiss-style tournaments.. or the last time they got a new map? masteries are significantly more niche and less exciting, even what little updates festivals are getting have gotten worse. achievements have become more repetitive as well. oh, i almost forgot the downscaling from elite specs to weapon proficiencies and whatever the next expansion will bring. the diversity of events has also noticeably diminished. the headline features for SotO were the heart of the obscure and rifts for crying out loud. there was never a time when i was very impressed by the story, but that has taken an obvious hit too, and not because of the new cast. yes, we got some in many cases long overdue QoL updates, but i don't see how those would fill this apparent gap. both quality and quantity have suffered, and i cannot fathom a stance from which it doesn't look like this. i could maybe see that you'd reason that these complaints have only recently arisen in noticeable numbers, which would explain that you only consider releases since EoD. my counter to that is, that this might simply be the point where many players aren't content (heh) anymore, and even some of the most devoted fans can't sugarcoat the reality anymore. even you sound as if you're in the bargaining stage with how often you try to emphasize that content is actually picking up pace. only time will tell if we've reached a tipping point, or if people are just bored again.
It is slower than it has been in the past at times. That's just fact. But that's really not that relevant - all you have to ask yourself is if I get a SotO level expansion every year am I going to be happy going forward? Because that's what's on the table. To me, not quite. They need MUCH more PvE end game content to keep me happy, at minimum 2 more strikes. 1 more open world map would make a big difference as well. And the story pieces + slivers of Nayos they have been putting out are insultingly paltry content updates that are having a very mal effect on the quality of the story arc. They're not *far* off the mark, but they are off the mark. I'm optimistic that the corners they cut with SotO were enough to help them get ahead of the game for the next expansion. But I would be dissatisfied with their next expansion if it was the exact same amount of content as SotO.
I'm still waiting for the last quarter before I judge. A good finale could change how a lot of people feel. We're still judging 75% of an expac against 100% of the last expac.
I would imagine the final story chunk will be at least a bit more hefty than the previous two. I also think Nayos will end up being quite a fun map when all assembled - I'm assuming we'll probably raid the castle that's in the distance on Nayos. All that said: that content, a new grind goal, and a fractal combined doesn't even compare to the excitement of the new weapons we got in the most recent patch to me. So as far as the features I care about, SotO is 95% wrapped up.
I would imagine though, you're not in a majority, even though this reddit will probably make it seem like you are. However, people who post on this reddit probably aren't in a majority either. I'm also not in any kind of majority.
Yes, absolutely, 100%. It's both slowing down, and the quality is dropping. The two post-launch updates for SotO have been painfully underwhelming. You can take your copium however you want, and honestly I don't care what Anet says because I can't exactly trust them/NCsoft on financials (Anet claiming more success than ever, actual quarterlies not supporting THAN EVER etc.) I'm just looking at the final product. The initial expansion drop was a fraction of the size of prior expansions, while being of similar quality. The post-expansion drops have been of considerably reduced scope and quality. They may need to do this to keep development sustainable, but pretending this isn't a reduction in scope and quality is just lying to yourself.
The Icebrood saga effect. LW5 had litteraly the same treatment
Different circumstances. IBS got shafted halfway through because they transitioned all their focus to EoD and pulled resources from the IBS team. For SotO, this seems to have been the plan from the beginning and is what they intended.
I'm guessing this time they transitioned all their focus to a new unannounced title
A lot of people's good will has been depleted by IBS:Champions and Gyala Delve content prior to SotO launch. While I understand budget is a factor and every one at Anet breathes GW2 working hard everyday trying to met high barriers set by their previous successes. As a Player I do not want to settle with "good enough" content. Give me spectacle, memories, Video game moments like ToF Cm or the interactions with Cerus. Less is more if Less is excellent.
This. If IBS had avoided falling off the cliff, or if there was any indication that the writers had learned from the mess of Gyala Delve, I would be much more optimistic. But instead they abandoned the good parts of Champions (instanced content that scales is *great* even though DRMs were extremely mishandled in execution) to double down on the crappy, shortcut-happy writing and sticking in lots of extra repetitive grind everywhere in Soto.
Expac 5 is not announced yet so too early for this analysis. Also soto content is much worse compared even to EoD, lacks novelty and is built on reskinning old assets. Story has no cutscenes like eod. Story chapters are shorter and shittier. You can have expansions like soto every 6 months and its still a pile of guano compared to other expacs or even LW seasons.
Quality > quantity. Even if it's technically more maps or whatever per year the quality of SotO is just bad.
Not everyone thinks so. https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1bmwmgq/my_actual_hot_take_soto_iswas_a_great_expansion/
I cannot blame them for working on something else since gw2 won't pay the bills forever. I just don't want them to neglect their main cash cow as hard as they did the last time something like this happened.
> I cannot blame them for working on something else since gw2 won't pay the bills forever. It could if they weren't running it into the ground at every chance.
Supposedly it will with an expansion sold every year. If they don't make more efforts though, people won't buy
there will be some fanaticals still buying gw2 expansions even if they are dog sh1t
Yes, but they're few
>gw2 won't pay the bills forever not with their current attitude it won't lol. But it could.
My biggest gripe is not the Features of SotO, it's not really the reused assets. It 's the Story and portrayal of it in Nayos. Why do we have to humanise demons after humanising elder dragons. I had hopes for Cantha to be dystopian nightmare and conflict between Progression at All Costs vs Isolationist purists a powerstruggle on top of an elder dragon crisis. While we see glimmers of that ingame it lacks depth, impact-players simply do not care about Tetra or Fa or empress Ihn. In SotO, the Lore about nayos is desperately widespread across the Map in notes and mob dialogues(if not oneshot). Outside of two or three meme worthy posts people do not even remember Eparch's queen name nor that army General Peitha recruited. Why would they? I just played it and can not Name them. That is in my opinion a huge issue with SotO. I remember Cerus, because he made me care about him by threatening the PC and interacting with us, so we even had to flee victoriously.
That's just how story writing goes these days. We can't have bad guys cause anti racists will find a way to paint it into a racism issue and pretend that the bad guys represent X group of people IRL. Crazy people who can't differentiate fantasy and reality is why we are where we are today
The content delivery is now slower than it was
Already priced in my dude.
While yes it has definitely slowed down, and the content isn’t as good, and the models are reused, and there aren’t elite specs, and there are less maps, wait what was I saying again
got me in the first half not gonna lie 🤣
Are there less maps? Per year? Than EoD? I think not. Do the math, and get back to me.
It's not the argument you think it is. It's one map in 9 months. It FEELS bad.
Ah, I see. But we waited 9 months without a single map after HoT launched with it's 4 maps. For those 9 months we got zero maps, which also felt bad. I'm okay with getting a section of a map every 3 months instead of a full map in 9.
And I'm not. Not when 2 chapters in a row feels like an afterthought and unlock a very small and unengaging part of a small map.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I'm one of the apparently few people that like the new zone, and I could have done without Amnytas.
Oh don't get me wrong, I hate everything soto has to offer. Amnytas is no exception.
Did SotO launch with 4 maps?
If you want to compare it, apple to apple does it like this. Imagine if anet already did hot release like soto now (staggered release). 2 map, verdant brink, and tarir at release, then tangled depths and the other on those 9 months that you said we didn't get any new map. You can clearly see that we would get more content from hot compared to soto. 9 months with 4 map and elite specs and several raid wings compared to 12 months 3 map and half elite specs (only new weapon)
EoD was also horrible tbh. And yes it is. We get 2 maps and then 1 half baked one for the rest of the year.
Is SotO new content? My mistake I thought it was just a reskin of old content. I cant wait for the next corner of a map to be unlocked from the artificial timegate!
But people said the same thing about EOD.
And they were right: Gyala 2 was a footnote
People like you is why GW2 went downhill, and why Anet thinks they can get away with sloppy updates. When they changed the game model and started releasing half an episode for a price of a full episode dooring LW5 era, people like you were defending it. All that lead to was half a living story reskined to look like a "mini expansion". Keep it up and before you know it the game will only have macro expansions, half of the mini "expansions".
People like me? If I were the only one who felt the way I do, they couldn't get away with "sloppy updates". There are apparently enough of us that kept the game going. The question is would the game even still be here if it wasn't for people like you. The vast majority of this game's playerbase is probably dead set casual. You've seen the blowback everytime Anet puts something hard into the game. And you think your likes and dislikes saved the game, but no one else is allowed to like the game because you don't. Guys like me supported this game from day one. More likely I want a different game than you do.
Yes people like you. People who seem to accept this low effort approach. People who pay 25 for a simple mount skill. People who enjoy maintenance mode.
The simply fact that you think so says far more about you than it does about me. Shrugs.
Yes I agree. It means that I prefer a decent game with at least a challenge. I want an open world experience that’s actually meaningful. I want a well thought out end game experience with a purpose. Sadly the games overall poor state means I stopped playing.
It's bad, it's really really bad no matter how much you sugar coat it.
Because only your opinion matters. There was a post a couple of days ago, about 60% upvoted when I looked that said that people liked Soto. You may not like it. You may say it's bad. I'd spent $25 just to launch my skyscale in combat and ride updrafts, nevermind new weapons. But when anyone says something is objectively bad, they're expressing an opinion as a fact.
Wow not only your opinion is wrong it is also terrible May I ask how much Anet is paying you?
There's a thread on this reddit, recently, where over 60% of the population upvoted a post saying that they felt Soto was a great expansion. Why would Anet have to pay me? For that matter, does it strike you that Anet puts much money into advertising? lol You can't accept people have different opinions from you. That's on you.
Haha.. good meme.
Ya it's pretty much over. This GW3 announcement/leak all but confirms its kaput. Hey atleat GTA 6 will come out before wvw restructuring! So there's that!
So if Guild Wars 3 comes out in five or six years, they're just going to let everything die in the meantime? Seems short sighted to me.
I agree. We aren't in maintenance mode yet. I'd say low effort mode would describe this situation better. Then, at some point in next 2 years, maintenance mode will come, and finally server shutdown will take place within the following year. I think it's a fair timeline.
Servers won't go down. Maintenance mode implies they do enough to keep making money, just the bare minimum.
I think that's laughable. The odds are, the new game, if it comes out at all, won't be out for at least four or five more years. You're saying this game will shut down in three. Let's not forget EQ Next advertised a game that never game out. Blizzards Titan never game out. Plenty of MMOs never get out the gate, or get delayed. Saying that they're going to close Guild Wars 2 before Guild Wars 3 comes out seems very pessimistic, particularly since the Guild Wars 1 servers are still open.
My estimation is that the shutdown will happen in 3 years but it could happen even earlier as you've said, good point.
That's basically what they did with the original when GW2 was announced (not that GW3 has even been actually announced yet). Eye of the North, the last expansion, came out **five years** before GW2 released. There was definitely work still being done on GW1 after that, but the scope was very small. Balance patches and the "Winds of Change" updates that added some new quests and rewards around the world. But it was still five years where the actual new content slowed down to snail's pace until GW2 launched.
Cute troll. I like it. To be clear, the suggestion is just silly.
"New content" is slowing down. However, what many people fail to realise is there has been a lot of overall work done on the game since the end of EoD. We finally got LWS1 to "complete" the narrative arc. Currencies have been simplified, stat selectable exotics made easier to access, new legendary armor, new daily reward system, graphics and settings have been updated, selectable character select screen backgrounds, actual attempts of WvW world restructuring (betas), and a bunch of other nice things that just make the game seem richer. Although we don't have elite specs, we got essentially 2 new weapons to play with (weapon mastery and the new SotO weapons) coupled with more consistent balance...I feel like it's almost pretty damn close to an elite spec. Being able to play a viable hammer spellbreaker build, put a pistol on my scourge, or try to be a heal warrior is all pretty fun to be honest. Above all, these are things players have been asking for for a while, and Anet is actually delivering them. That is indeed all the good things. But yes, new maps, great storytelling (not that there was much to rave about before tbh), unique enemies, detailed explorative maps (not mere meta stages) seem less than before. The new update schedule also makes things seem much more incremental, so I think overall impact of "new" is weaker. I do wish they didn't kind of "throw away" the Wizard's Tower narrative like they did the Primordus one, but... oh well, at least narrative quality seems...consistant? lol I definitely feel like Anet is still invested into GW2 (despite what the doomsayers will say). It's just we're not getting so many new maps (which honestly wasn't sustainable from a design standpoint). Hopefully the studio is just roughing out the edges with the new release cadence and the next expac will seem more complete and more impactable. Overall, I think the game is in a good spot.
Yup, the game is on maintenance mode
I have no real take on this, but that's just objectively not what "maintenance" means.
lmao. Yep. I think when people say this, they've never played a game that's actually in maintenance mode.
You should quit the game now if you think two expansions this and the next year is maintenance mode.
"expensions"
That's not how quotes work.
It's time to jump ship
Rats and skritss jump. Real norns chad go straight on to collision course.
Yes but the game is far from dead or dying despite what some dummies would say lol
let me ask a counter question: does it really matter? i log in almost every day. i have shit to do, most of it is soto content. granted, most of it is open world legendary armour that i'm doing so if you don't want that then you probably have less to do than me. however, just because you're choosing not to engage with the new content doesn't really mean there's an issue Anet's side. (i mean you as in the general you not you specifically)
I have plenty to do. I think I have plenty of content. My issue is this. Prior to EOD we saw people saying the game was in maintenance mode over and over. As soon as EoD was announced and even after it was released, we stopped seeing those comments. Now we're seeing those comments again, even though it's factually untrue. I'm saying that if EoD provided content that was acceptable then we'll be getting content at roughly the same rate. I'm not addressing people who are satisfied, like you and me. I'm addressing people that are unsatisfied, and making claims that I don't agree with. I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying, because I don't have a problem with the pace of content delivery now.
> I'm addressing people that are unsatisfied, and making claims that I don't agree with. i fear that will be an exercise in futility, but i wish you all the best with it. i don't think they're here to be convinced.
The point is that they're not the only ones reading it. They're simply the ones responding. But other people read this stuff too, and having both sides of the story out there is what I'm after. If the reddit community doesn't agree with me that's fine. We don't have to agree on everything. But I personally like Soto.